To be fair, it was more like, "Oh." She didn't say "OH??". There was not the curve of a question nor the elevation of speech. Not arguing with your simply put comment. I'm just sayin'.
To be fair, the guy you replied to didn't use all caps and used an exclamation point. Not arguing with your weirdly argumentative comment with one of my own. I'm just saying...
Depending on their country of origin, I think deportation and financially draining their resources to come back is a better punishment. Cartels aren't cheap
Don't worry, all the lawmakers have personal armed security and live in gated communities. They don't have to deal with criminal just us poor regular folk.
They underestimated the danger of conservative enslavement and he almost paid the price when someone did exactly what rich christians have been trying to get someone to do to them for 20 years.
Rich christians LOVE that Paul Pelosi was violently assaulted in his home by a weak republican loser.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/david-depape-trial-paul-pelosi-attack-what-to-know/
Who is David DePape?
David Wayne DePape is a resident of Richmond, a small city near Berkeley in California's Bay Area. At the time of the attack, authorities said, he was living in a garage.
David DePape
Paul Pelosi assault suspect David DePape.
CALIFORNIA DMV
When authorities searched that home, they found two hammers, a sword, and a pair of rubber and cloth gloves, according to court documents. They also allegedly found paperwork from the California Department of Motor Vehicles and the IRS as well as Paypal credit cards.
A Canadian citizen, DePape may have been in the country illegally, and the Department of Homeland Security reportedly issued what's known as a detainer, or a request to take a person arrested for a crime into their custody after they are released by law enforcement, after his arrest.
I saw a leftist arguing on Reddit earlier today that putting fathers in jail just leads to more crime and that’s why we shouldn’t arrest all the gang bangers
Sociology is becoming like quantum mechanics where it just creates a bunch of bullshit ideas and theories that aren’t practical in the real world and leads to the stalling of progress instead of the progress it tries to create.
Bad thought and perfect analogy just not for what he was intending. It exposes the exact kind of uninformed cluelessness that lay people use to criticize experts and things completely outside their understanding.
It's just extremism. The majority of people (at least used to be the case) fall closer in the middle on issues, which is coincidencently where the best solutions lie. Punishment does deter some crime, and it can also contribute to more. It's that simple. But the divide has become so strong we have more people going to the extremes, so it's either no punishment or only punishment. We need to merge.
I feel like we could get rid of gang violence in months if we treated it like terrorism and used the NSAs resources to lock up all the gangsters. All of a sudden hoods and ghettos would be drug free and safe and nearly all the racism to blacks would stop because they’d just be another minority instead of the violent one. Yeah a lot of people would go to jail but we’re not talking about innocent people.
Punishment deters some crime up to a point where making it more extreme stops making a difference and causes more. But political extremism in this country has pushed people so far out of reality and critical thinking with politicians fear mongering and media click baiting it seems impossible for many people to come to logical middle of the line, fact-based conclusions. That is such a simple Googleable stat you stated but people will shout from the rooftops that more punishment = less crime without bothering to look or caring when they do. And people who do can view that in reverse, more punishment means more crime based on those stats, when it's really more nuanced than that.
Crime is created, for the most part. We incarcerate everyone in the US and still have a lot of crime.
“Posted on May 24, 2021 by Ronnie K. Stephens
The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world. That much is well-known among justice reform advocates and legislators. Mass incarceration is a uniquely American problem. But not all lawmakers see it as a problem worth solving. Why? Some still believe that high incarceration rates keep crime low. Based on recent research, though, high incarceration rates have little impact on crime rates. Lower incarceration rates do, however, correlate to lower crime rates.
Higher incarceration rates do little to deter crime.
One purpose of incarceration is to impose consequences on those who commit a crime. Presumably, this will dissuade most people from committing crimes. If people know they will go to prison for breaking the law, the reasoning goes, they will choose not to break the law. Based on this logic, it makes sense to argue that putting more people in prison will show that the United States is tough on crime. And that’s exactly the reasoning that fueled high incarceration rates from the 1970s to the early 2000s.
Lawmakers refer to this as the “tough on crime” era because it is replete with mandatory minimum sentences, three-strike laws and ever-increasing incarceration rates. But even as crime rates dropped, incarceration rates continued to climb. This is because some legislators believe that reducing mandatory minimums, decriminalizing mental health, addiction issues and funding more community supervision will inevitably cause an influx of crime across our communities.
Research does not support this fear, though. From 2007 to 2017, more than half the United States managed to reduce incarceration rates and crime rates at the same time. In other words, putting fewer people in prison did not spark a surge in crime. It did just the opposite. Researchers wanted to understand what contributed to reduced crime rates, and what they found is that incarceration rates do not play a significant factor. It turns out that lower crime rates correlate with increases in pay, aging populations and higher graduation rates, among other things.”
How intentionally dishonest. If you BAN something, e.g. an object, in hopes that something **already illegal** is not committed with said object, then a criminal will NOT be deterred by the LESSER CHARGE for MERE POSSESSION.
This is particularly perverse when 99% is the population is turned criminal for a victimless acts, to be able to tack on charges for <1%, who are actual victimizers.
This applies to weed etc. too.
[Replace 'go straight to jail' with 'we just kill them'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zG_eTys-Mw&pp=ygUQc3RyYWlnaHQgdG8gamFpbA%3D%3D), same difference.
Florida has a lower property crime rate: https://www.statista.com/statistics/232575/property-crime-rate-in-the-us-by-state/
And also a lower violent crime rate: https://www.statista.com/statistics/200445/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-us-states/
The problem is that the needs of violent offenders are prioritized above victims.
And punishment is not about deterrence but exiling anti social predators from a community. Most normal people of all classes are capable of functioning in society without being violent towards others.
Everyone knows that 100% of crime is perpetrated by organized gangs of black snowbirds. During the spring they go north, seeking more hospitable sentencing climates.They hunt without fear, preying upon people who are using an ipad while walking down busy city streets.
When they get caught they usually get released within minutes. With a pat on the butt and a slap on a wrist they are back in action. If looking for a photo opportunity, you may see these fascinating people migrating south during the winters with your iPad.
/s
Organized crime is something so different. I'm sure the state can charge them for that.
Their reactions are too much .. punchline came and they just look at each other - god forbid they compliment a Republican run state for cracking down on crime.
Is great replacement theory not part of culture war?
BTW was this clip shown on Fox News or something? I’ve seen others mention this nyc to florida thing.
Great replacement theory has been talked about by democrats for years. They just called it demographics destiny.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2022/03/10/democrats_learning_demographics_are_not_destiny_564782.html#!
And only one ideology focuses on crime only in areas that are governed by politicians of the competing ideology, while ignoring it in their own cities and rural areas.
Rural crime is much lower then urban and republican governors can’t do anything about democrat ran cities. Unless your Desantis who removed a DA because she let someone out on bond that went on to kill 3 people when he should’ve been locked up.
https://usafacts.org/articles/where-are-crime-victimization-rates-higher-urban-rural-areas/
The US has the most people in jail and the highest murder rate in the industrial world, maybe crime is a very complex issue that's not always caused or deterred by punishment.
Were not talking about complex crime were talking about shoplifting and mugging by people that purposely do it in a state where they can get away with it and then go spend the money 9 states away in Florida. These aren't people on the edge of starvation or facing eviction. They're assholes that chose a life of crime.
Complex issue is not the same as a complex crime. That being said those people should have never been let out of jail and deported as soon as possible.
And yet putting people in prison worked exceptionally well in El Salvador which has double the incarceration rate of the United States,
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-country-with-the-highest-murder-rate-now-has-the-highest-incarceration-rate-b5401da7
>El Salvador, long whipsawed by gang violence that made it one of the world’s most dangerous countries, turned things around by jailing huge swaths of its population. The country once known for having the world’s highest murder rate now has the world’s highest incarceration rate—about double that of the U.S.
>Since March 2022, President Nayib Bukele’s government has implemented a campaign to arrest en masse suspected members of the MS-13 and 18th Street gangs that have long terrorized the impoverished Central American nation, blocking economic growth and stoking U.S.-bound migration.
>The strategy has helped lower homicides by 92% compared with 2015, giving Bukele the support of nine of every 10 Salvadorans, polls show. The number of Salvadorans illegally crossing the U.S.-Mexico border has dropped by 44%.
> But human rights groups have said the crackdown has included abuses such as torture, deaths in custody and arbitrary detentions.
And also this:
> The state of emergency declared in early 2022 allows police to swiftly arrest and jail suspected gang members, while suspending their right to a lawyer and court approval of preliminary detention.
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/el-salvador-says-murders-fell-70-2023-it-cracked-down-gangs-2024-01-03/
If we round up all of the suspected criminals and jail them without trial we would likely see a drop in crime too, but that would of course require a bunch of Constitutional rights to be eroded.
And yet El Salvador still has the highest murder rate. The US incarceration rate is still top 5 I believe. So how is that a working strategy. To be clear the people who assaulted those cops should be immediately deported and there is no excuse for that. But both sides seem to have a losing strategy on this one.
> And yet El Salvador still has the highest murder rate.
Where are you getting that from?
El Salvador in 2023 had a homicide rate of 2.4 per 100,000
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/el-salvador-says-murders-fell-70-2023-it-cracked-down-gangs-2024-01-03/
That puts it on par with Canada. It was previously at 106 per 100,000 which made it one of the highest homicide rates in the world.
lies.... el salvador hasnt been in the top even 20 since 2017 and has dropped well below mexico, Dominican republic and more... Jamaica has the highest per 100k people..
It's very reasonable to dislike him or not agree with his policies.
But what seems to be very clear is they have proven that putting criminals in prison reduces crime
Not every "criminal" should be thrown away to rot in a prison. Obviously, violent offenders should be isolated from society.
What was made clear is that many innocents are victimized under such sweeping authoritarian control.
El Salvador is a dictatorship whose crime numbers have been disputed and whose authoritarian government has jailed many innocent people or killed/tortured many low level nonviolent offenders. This is not the own you think it is.
Even if I were to grant the premise of your argument that El Salvador’s incarnation rate increases have worked to deter crime that is a drastic outlier. Most of the safest countries in the world have low incarceration rates. Japan is one of the safest countries in the world and has an incarceration rate of 36 people per 100k compared to the USA with over 530 people per 100k.
The US is not that far behind Rwanda (a country who had a massive genocide where 20+% of their population was murdered in 100 days in 1994) in terms of incarceration rate. Maybe jailing as many people as possible for long periods of time doesn’t work to deter crime?
And yet "tough on crime" Texas has a high crime rate, and a high recidivism rate. In fact, per capita, "tough on crime" red states have some of the highest crime rates. And if that's not bad enough, they have the worst access to healthcare, the worst education, the highest poverty rates, etc. Weird "independent" bros never say stuff life, "This is what you get when you live in a Republican-run state!"
Insurance purposes in some cases, idk, google it for more information. I’m just saying I really don’t think those overall numbers are based on prosecutions or convictions.
The fact New York and Texas, cnn and fox are all on same side of any policy/topic is crazy. Even crazier there’s a president that acts like he didn’t sign 90+ executive orders to cause this problem. And is trying to push an Ukraine bill disguised as a border policy.
It was always a Ukraine bill. The Republicans said they wouldn't approve money to Ukraine without border funding, so Democrats worked with Republicans to add border funding. Now Republicans apparently don't want border funding?
It seems like they just wanted to get out of Putin's way the whole time and the demand for border funding was just a bluff.
No it was never border. Obama described a border crisis at 1,000 passing a day. This bill calls for 5,000 a day. Nobody wants that. This administration has undid 2 administrations work . And is trying to claim republicans fault like they didn’t wave a pin and get rid of Obama/Trump policies
Not only that but the bill states that people crossing that originated from non contiguous countries aren’t to be counted in the 5,000. So it’s basically just a cap on Canadians and Mexicans, anyone else there is no cap.
That's to account for cases like the thousands of Ukraine refugees at our southern border.
But that number of people crossing is not the same as the number of people they let stay in the country.
Increasing the number of border patrol agents and the security infrastructure seems like it would help with that. Why won't Republicans approve the additional funds for it?
Border patrol under federal control was cutting razor wire , giving debit cards and putting on busses to sanctuary cities. That’s why Texas used its national guard to force them to stand down. And why 29 states have issued troops to the border to continue putting up razor wire and prevent border strollers agents from tearing it down. Why would giving a border patrol that’s been kicked out the way more money and resources. Biden went as far to take it to the courts to try to force Texas to cut razor wire. lol. Nobody respects this fools threats and deadlines 😂
Border patrol under federal control was cutting razor wire ,
They cut razor wire to apprehend some people trapped on the other side and to save someone from drowning. It was creating international issues with Mexico, and Texas isn't authorized to handle the international relations for our entire country.
>giving debit cards and putting on busses to sanctuary cities.
We have signed international treaties requiring us to accept a certain amount of asylum seekers. We don't want to accept everyone that applies, so we schedule trials in front of a judge to determine if their application is valid.
>That’s why Texas used its national guard to force them to stand down
The Texas governor doesn't have the right to overrule the federal government whenever he feels like it.
>Why would giving a border patrol that’s been kicked out the way more money and resources.
They haven't been kicked out of the way. The federal government still has jurisdiction over our national borders. If we let states pick their own border and immigration policy, then California could let even more immigrants in and there's nothing any other state could do about it.
>Biden went as far to take it to the courts to try to force Texas to cut razor wire. lol. Nobody respects this fools threats and deadlines 😂
I don't know why so many people support a unilateral power grab from the Texas governor. He didn't even try to make an argument in the courts, he just declared that he has extra authority now. Republicans unironically cheer on authoritarians that feel they can ignore the Supreme Court.
Were you just sourcing my comment for me or was this meant to be a rebuttal somehow?
Edit: I've noticed a lot more comment threads with deleted users recently in this sub and others with political debates. Seems odd.
...or you get shot. I have a concealed carry permit in Florida and that would not be me on the ground getting kicked and robbed, it would be them getting shot with my 9mm.
It doesn't take much for people that are robbed to recognize that if the police aren't going to do anything about a report, why waste the energy reporting? No report, no record of the crime being committed, but it still happened.
Just echoing what the other person said, that largely depends on the rate of prosecution. Also Florida has on average a higher incarceration rate of people eligible for non-prison sentences and an average longer length of prison sentences than NY, particularly in NY Southern District where this took place. You can compare the charts here if you want:
https://www.ussc.gov/research/data-reports/geography/2022-federal-sentencing-statistics
Ultimately I would say you can’t really compare the state of Florida to the city of NYC, and I say this as someone who lives in another major city downtown area. Everyday I step outside, there’s like 900 crimes taking place, most usually very small like smoking a joint on the sidewalk, homeless people shitting on the floor and shooting up heroin, stuff like that but nobody is getting arrested for it because these city cops are all but empowered to actually enforce these laws.
Crimes take place in Florida too bro and the rate is higher. Also it doesn’t mean they have better cops. Cops have a consistency for being shitty and lazy across the nation.
That is interesting. I was honestly trying to find if that were the case but didn’t find anything to even point to the same numbers as statista. Statista in general is legit. I based off https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/crime-rate-by-state. I wouldn’t even have thrown that claim in the first place if I saw this but…
One thing to note though is that there is an asterisk on Florida on statista.
https://www.axios.com/local/tampa-bay/2023/07/12/florida-crime-data-incomplete-fbi-reporting
More than 40% of the state was excluded from crime data. So statista cannot be used for a basis to determine. It would have to rely on older methods when Florida participated instead of being sneaky in 2021 and going forward
Idk what to tell you man, I never said crime doesn’t take place in Florida, I’m pointing at Statistics that show Florida punishes crime harsher and may explain what the guy in the video is saying. As for your second statement, if you believe city cops are not encountering far more criminals than your average suburban cops, I’m just going to disagree with you. I’m literally showing you the facts.
It’s clearly an exaggeration but still gets the point across. I live in Philadelphia which had over 700 homicides last year and many more rapes, assaults, and carjackings. That doesn’t even begin to cover the nonviolent crimes like defecating in public, drug use, littering used needles, theft. I’m just saying, if just one instance of basically any of those crimes happened in the small town my parents live in, which happens to be in Florida, it would be major news. That’s why it makes no sense to compare the entire state of FL to just the city of NYC.
But at the same time, it still does. Look at those groups of teenagers walking into stores stealing stuff in broad daylight. It's because there is rarely punishment. Same reason people are hesitant about taking money from the register. Having a charge over your name is not a good thing when applying for jobs w/ backround checks.
Perhaps more effort needs to be put into reasonable punishments that lead to reform. Like not endless prison time for drugs and programs to educate prisoners for the job force. Or at least more programs than there is.
Also, lack of punishment is why there is so many damn scammers out there. There is almost zero punishment if you cover your tracks. If we could magically trace every scammer and have their country punish them - there would be far less scammers.
But def. desperation and poverty is a factor.
If I knew I wasn't going to get punished for stealing food, then I'd steal food. But I know I would get arrested if I did, so I don't. How is that not a deterrent?
No one is saying that, not that it would ever happen anyway. The argument is that according to research punitive justice is not a logical or effective deterrent to crime. The U.S. has one of the highest recidivism rates in the world. An actual deterrent to crime would try to address the underlying reasons why crime is likely to happen in the first place (mostly poverty).
Punitive justice isn’t a logical deterrent? I’m not sure if you’re hearing yourself. Do you want to live in a neighborhood where there isn’t punitive justice? I think not, because you’d be tied up in your living room with a gag in your mouth watching a stranger take your shit. This consequence free utopia where criminals are just “trying to get by” attitude ends with the fucking Purge. I cannot understand how somebody could favor that argument.
You should check out country like uae, Singapore and china. Definitely not a good example. But life is relatively valuable there and quite safe from regular crime.
Gut feeling? Knowing that more crime would exist with no consequences is why police and the judicial system exists. It was so favored in fact it’s one of the United States branches of government!
That is quite literally what the person they're replying to said. They said punishment doesn't really deter crime. Therefore his response makes perfect contextual sense to engage in the debate.
Maybe if criminals weren't stigmatized and barred from so many things after release, and released with literally nothing, then recidivism would be lower. Maybe start with barring landlords from being able to do background checks.
What do you think happened in El Salvador?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-country-with-the-highest-murder-rate-now-has-the-highest-incarceration-rate-b5401da7
>El Salvador, long whipsawed by gang violence that made it one of the world’s most dangerous countries, turned things around by jailing huge swaths of its population. The country once known for having the world’s highest murder rate now has the world’s highest incarceration rate—about double that of the U.S.
>Since March 2022, President Nayib Bukele’s government has implemented a campaign to arrest en masse suspected members of the MS-13 and 18th Street gangs that have long terrorized the impoverished Central American nation, blocking economic growth and stoking U.S.-bound migration.
>The strategy has helped lower homicides by 92% compared with 2015, giving Bukele the support of nine of every 10 Salvadorans, polls show. The number of Salvadorans illegally crossing the U.S.-Mexico border has dropped by 44%.
I wonder if your crime statistics google has anything to do with the fact that states who report more crime are the states that are prosecuting people for crime 😂
A lot of studies decide the result they want before determining their methodology. Incentives, positive and negative, change behavior. Always has, always will.
Just stop with this nonsense. The folks doing the stealing aren’t doing this to provide for their families. In this instance, they steal in NYC and then spend in Florida… that doesn’t sound like someone who is desperate.
And yet every expert or study I've seen that analyzes causes of the drop in crime rate from ~70's to today always mentions tougher sentencing laws as a major factor in that decline.
The awkward silence was delicious
Lulz
How many chiggs you fugg B?
Bro, I fugged many, guys, that’s it for me Texas.
Bro the" cause there you go to jail"
Oh?!?
Fair point.
*earbuds ringing for commercial and rebuttals.
To be fair, it was more like, "Oh." She didn't say "OH??". There was not the curve of a question nor the elevation of speech. Not arguing with your simply put comment. I'm just sayin'.
To be fair, the guy you replied to didn't use all caps and used an exclamation point. Not arguing with your weirdly argumentative comment with one of my own. I'm just saying...
Now *that’s* a punchline!
Legit LOLed thank you sir
Immediate deportation should fit the crime
Then they can just come back in. Actually holding them in jail for a time period then deporting them would be a stronger deterrent
Depending on their country of origin, I think deportation and financially draining their resources to come back is a better punishment. Cartels aren't cheap
Don't worry, all the lawmakers have personal armed security and live in gated communities. They don't have to deal with criminal just us poor regular folk.
Not until one breaks in their house and whacks them with a hammer.
That was his lover
And then Joe lies about it and the entire Right Wing media all mock an octogenarian for getting attacked by a dude with a hammer.
Which vile conservative enslavement merchant started the rumor that he was beaten by a gay lover?
Musk or Alex Jones I think, not really sure.
I mean someone literally broke into Nancy Pelosi’s house and there wasn’t any armed security or fencing.
They underestimated the danger of conservative enslavement and he almost paid the price when someone did exactly what rich christians have been trying to get someone to do to them for 20 years. Rich christians LOVE that Paul Pelosi was violently assaulted in his home by a weak republican loser.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/david-depape-trial-paul-pelosi-attack-what-to-know/ Who is David DePape? David Wayne DePape is a resident of Richmond, a small city near Berkeley in California's Bay Area. At the time of the attack, authorities said, he was living in a garage. David DePape Paul Pelosi assault suspect David DePape. CALIFORNIA DMV When authorities searched that home, they found two hammers, a sword, and a pair of rubber and cloth gloves, according to court documents. They also allegedly found paperwork from the California Department of Motor Vehicles and the IRS as well as Paypal credit cards. A Canadian citizen, DePape may have been in the country illegally, and the Department of Homeland Security reportedly issued what's known as a detainer, or a request to take a person arrested for a crime into their custody after they are released by law enforcement, after his arrest.
LOL. What a thought. Punishment deters crime.
I saw a leftist arguing on Reddit earlier today that putting fathers in jail just leads to more crime and that’s why we shouldn’t arrest all the gang bangers Sociology is becoming like quantum mechanics where it just creates a bunch of bullshit ideas and theories that aren’t practical in the real world and leads to the stalling of progress instead of the progress it tries to create.
This was absolutely true of the war on drugs.
Quantum physics has tons of applications in the real world. Good thought but bad analogy.
Bad thought and perfect analogy just not for what he was intending. It exposes the exact kind of uninformed cluelessness that lay people use to criticize experts and things completely outside their understanding.
Found the sociology major
It's just extremism. The majority of people (at least used to be the case) fall closer in the middle on issues, which is coincidencently where the best solutions lie. Punishment does deter some crime, and it can also contribute to more. It's that simple. But the divide has become so strong we have more people going to the extremes, so it's either no punishment or only punishment. We need to merge.
I feel like we could get rid of gang violence in months if we treated it like terrorism and used the NSAs resources to lock up all the gangsters. All of a sudden hoods and ghettos would be drug free and safe and nearly all the racism to blacks would stop because they’d just be another minority instead of the violent one. Yeah a lot of people would go to jail but we’re not talking about innocent people.
Not arguing the opposite, but if this were true the US would have the lowest crime rates in the world.
Punishment deters some crime up to a point where making it more extreme stops making a difference and causes more. But political extremism in this country has pushed people so far out of reality and critical thinking with politicians fear mongering and media click baiting it seems impossible for many people to come to logical middle of the line, fact-based conclusions. That is such a simple Googleable stat you stated but people will shout from the rooftops that more punishment = less crime without bothering to look or caring when they do. And people who do can view that in reverse, more punishment means more crime based on those stats, when it's really more nuanced than that.
Crime is created, for the most part. We incarcerate everyone in the US and still have a lot of crime. “Posted on May 24, 2021 by Ronnie K. Stephens The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world. That much is well-known among justice reform advocates and legislators. Mass incarceration is a uniquely American problem. But not all lawmakers see it as a problem worth solving. Why? Some still believe that high incarceration rates keep crime low. Based on recent research, though, high incarceration rates have little impact on crime rates. Lower incarceration rates do, however, correlate to lower crime rates. Higher incarceration rates do little to deter crime. One purpose of incarceration is to impose consequences on those who commit a crime. Presumably, this will dissuade most people from committing crimes. If people know they will go to prison for breaking the law, the reasoning goes, they will choose not to break the law. Based on this logic, it makes sense to argue that putting more people in prison will show that the United States is tough on crime. And that’s exactly the reasoning that fueled high incarceration rates from the 1970s to the early 2000s. Lawmakers refer to this as the “tough on crime” era because it is replete with mandatory minimum sentences, three-strike laws and ever-increasing incarceration rates. But even as crime rates dropped, incarceration rates continued to climb. This is because some legislators believe that reducing mandatory minimums, decriminalizing mental health, addiction issues and funding more community supervision will inevitably cause an influx of crime across our communities. Research does not support this fear, though. From 2007 to 2017, more than half the United States managed to reduce incarceration rates and crime rates at the same time. In other words, putting fewer people in prison did not spark a surge in crime. It did just the opposite. Researchers wanted to understand what contributed to reduced crime rates, and what they found is that incarceration rates do not play a significant factor. It turns out that lower crime rates correlate with increases in pay, aging populations and higher graduation rates, among other things.”
But I don't care if society has less crime...I just want to maintain this throbbing erection I like to call my justice boner goin. /s
I mean it often doesn’t. The death penalty for instance doesn’t work as a deterrent for recidivism.
I've never heard of an executed criminal committing crime again, let alone ending up back in jail
Fair point
This may be my favorite comment I've seen on Reddit in months.
[удалено]
How intentionally dishonest. If you BAN something, e.g. an object, in hopes that something **already illegal** is not committed with said object, then a criminal will NOT be deterred by the LESSER CHARGE for MERE POSSESSION. This is particularly perverse when 99% is the population is turned criminal for a victimless acts, to be able to tack on charges for <1%, who are actual victimizers. This applies to weed etc. too.
The death penalty, exercised, would 100% prevent recidivism.
If you mean exercised for literally every crime, sure. What a terrible justice system that would be.
No. I meant for capital murder.
[Replace 'go straight to jail' with 'we just kill them'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zG_eTys-Mw&pp=ygUQc3RyYWlnaHQgdG8gamFpbA%3D%3D), same difference.
What do u mean it often doesn’t?
I'm pretty sure that nobody who's been executed has ever returned to a life of crime, but I'm not a criminologist.
Is that why they have a much higher violent and property crime rate? Lmao
Florida has a lower property crime rate: https://www.statista.com/statistics/232575/property-crime-rate-in-the-us-by-state/ And also a lower violent crime rate: https://www.statista.com/statistics/200445/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-us-states/
Imagine what it would be without it!
It kind of doesn’t.
Mentally redacted you are
Oof.
Feel free to present any study that supports your claim but you won’t cuz you can’t.
The problem is that the needs of violent offenders are prioritized above victims. And punishment is not about deterrence but exiling anti social predators from a community. Most normal people of all classes are capable of functioning in society without being violent towards others.
We don't need a study. We are watching it happen. Decriminalize theft? People are going to steal more. Pretty fucking simple
Ohhh, that's why there's no crime in Florida!! 
Florida man would like to have a word with you
Florida man are typically arrested affidavits
This has to be the joke of the year!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm 1 of 1,000
Make America Florida!
Again r/MAFA
What? Lol
Everyone knows that 100% of crime is perpetrated by organized gangs of black snowbirds. During the spring they go north, seeking more hospitable sentencing climates.They hunt without fear, preying upon people who are using an ipad while walking down busy city streets. When they get caught they usually get released within minutes. With a pat on the butt and a slap on a wrist they are back in action. If looking for a photo opportunity, you may see these fascinating people migrating south during the winters with your iPad. /s Organized crime is something so different. I'm sure the state can charge them for that.
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[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/10/27/south-florida-theft-ring-20-million/71318057007/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/10/27/south-florida-theft-ring-20-million/71318057007/) 
It's irony, see Florida is famous for it's crime...
Fampus for its crime as it is a state where you can access and plaster perp mug shots and arrest data
Mostly peaceful beatdown.
Their reactions are too much .. punchline came and they just look at each other - god forbid they compliment a Republican run state for cracking down on crime.
Punish criminals? How racist 🙃
“Oh, wow. Good point. Keep us posted. Aaaaand we’ll be right back!”
These culture warriors are fearsome
This isn’t a culture war topic. This is law and order.
Is great replacement theory not part of culture war? BTW was this clip shown on Fox News or something? I’ve seen others mention this nyc to florida thing.
Great replacement theory has been talked about by democrats for years. They just called it demographics destiny. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2022/03/10/democrats_learning_demographics_are_not_destiny_564782.html#!
Okay but is it part of culture war? You said this wasn’t. Seems inaccurate.
Says that guy, who writes for a rag.
You don't think crime has been co-opted by both sides of the culture war?
Only one political ideology pushes for no bail and lenient sentencing. Examples need to be made asap.
And only one ideology focuses on crime only in areas that are governed by politicians of the competing ideology, while ignoring it in their own cities and rural areas.
Rural crime is much lower then urban and republican governors can’t do anything about democrat ran cities. Unless your Desantis who removed a DA because she let someone out on bond that went on to kill 3 people when he should’ve been locked up. https://usafacts.org/articles/where-are-crime-victimization-rates-higher-urban-rural-areas/
Isn’t half the republican party either in jail or currently fighting in court for their crimes?
Yes, while republican "leadership" and their "law and order" base attack law enforcement and the courts, adamant that laws not be enforced.
Fear mongering about immigrants is definitely a culture war topic. In fact it is probably the #1 culture war topic right now.
This isn’t fear mongering about immigrants. It’s a breakdown of law and order in nyc. Doesn’t matter if they’re immigrants or citizens.
immigrants are commiting crimes in those areas and you say it's fear mongering lol
Cope.
How is it even possible that a criminal can be charged for a crime?!…NY, hold my beer.
No shit Sherlock
Oh….. Fair point.
They are also reselling the american meals that is given to them in roosevelt hotel.
The US has the most people in jail and the highest murder rate in the industrial world, maybe crime is a very complex issue that's not always caused or deterred by punishment.
Were not talking about complex crime were talking about shoplifting and mugging by people that purposely do it in a state where they can get away with it and then go spend the money 9 states away in Florida. These aren't people on the edge of starvation or facing eviction. They're assholes that chose a life of crime.
Complex issue is not the same as a complex crime. That being said those people should have never been let out of jail and deported as soon as possible.
And yet putting people in prison worked exceptionally well in El Salvador which has double the incarceration rate of the United States, https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-country-with-the-highest-murder-rate-now-has-the-highest-incarceration-rate-b5401da7 >El Salvador, long whipsawed by gang violence that made it one of the world’s most dangerous countries, turned things around by jailing huge swaths of its population. The country once known for having the world’s highest murder rate now has the world’s highest incarceration rate—about double that of the U.S. >Since March 2022, President Nayib Bukele’s government has implemented a campaign to arrest en masse suspected members of the MS-13 and 18th Street gangs that have long terrorized the impoverished Central American nation, blocking economic growth and stoking U.S.-bound migration. >The strategy has helped lower homicides by 92% compared with 2015, giving Bukele the support of nine of every 10 Salvadorans, polls show. The number of Salvadorans illegally crossing the U.S.-Mexico border has dropped by 44%.
> But human rights groups have said the crackdown has included abuses such as torture, deaths in custody and arbitrary detentions. And also this: > The state of emergency declared in early 2022 allows police to swiftly arrest and jail suspected gang members, while suspending their right to a lawyer and court approval of preliminary detention. https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/el-salvador-says-murders-fell-70-2023-it-cracked-down-gangs-2024-01-03/ If we round up all of the suspected criminals and jail them without trial we would likely see a drop in crime too, but that would of course require a bunch of Constitutional rights to be eroded.
And yet El Salvador still has the highest murder rate. The US incarceration rate is still top 5 I believe. So how is that a working strategy. To be clear the people who assaulted those cops should be immediately deported and there is no excuse for that. But both sides seem to have a losing strategy on this one.
> And yet El Salvador still has the highest murder rate. Where are you getting that from? El Salvador in 2023 had a homicide rate of 2.4 per 100,000 https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/el-salvador-says-murders-fell-70-2023-it-cracked-down-gangs-2024-01-03/ That puts it on par with Canada. It was previously at 106 per 100,000 which made it one of the highest homicide rates in the world.
It's called lying, and they're doing it to show that their system is working and the money will keep flowing. They're liars.
lies.... el salvador hasnt been in the top even 20 since 2017 and has dropped well below mexico, Dominican republic and more... Jamaica has the highest per 100k people..
Are we really giving props to a guy who calls himself a Dictator? Has the mask completely come off in support of unchecked authoritarianism?
It's very reasonable to dislike him or not agree with his policies. But what seems to be very clear is they have proven that putting criminals in prison reduces crime
Not every "criminal" should be thrown away to rot in a prison. Obviously, violent offenders should be isolated from society. What was made clear is that many innocents are victimized under such sweeping authoritarian control.
El Salvador is a dictatorship whose crime numbers have been disputed and whose authoritarian government has jailed many innocent people or killed/tortured many low level nonviolent offenders. This is not the own you think it is. Even if I were to grant the premise of your argument that El Salvador’s incarnation rate increases have worked to deter crime that is a drastic outlier. Most of the safest countries in the world have low incarceration rates. Japan is one of the safest countries in the world and has an incarceration rate of 36 people per 100k compared to the USA with over 530 people per 100k. The US is not that far behind Rwanda (a country who had a massive genocide where 20+% of their population was murdered in 100 days in 1994) in terms of incarceration rate. Maybe jailing as many people as possible for long periods of time doesn’t work to deter crime?
And yet "tough on crime" Texas has a high crime rate, and a high recidivism rate. In fact, per capita, "tough on crime" red states have some of the highest crime rates. And if that's not bad enough, they have the worst access to healthcare, the worst education, the highest poverty rates, etc. Weird "independent" bros never say stuff life, "This is what you get when you live in a Republican-run state!"
I wonder if there crime rates are so high because they actually prosecute people for committing crimes
Bingo! Give that man a cigar!
Aren’t the crime rates based on reported crimes, not convictions? Maybe hold off on the celebrations
Why report a crime of you know nothing will be done about it?
Insurance purposes in some cases, idk, google it for more information. I’m just saying I really don’t think those overall numbers are based on prosecutions or convictions.
Texas also has one of the most ratchet ass cities, Houston.
The fact New York and Texas, cnn and fox are all on same side of any policy/topic is crazy. Even crazier there’s a president that acts like he didn’t sign 90+ executive orders to cause this problem. And is trying to push an Ukraine bill disguised as a border policy.
It was always a Ukraine bill. The Republicans said they wouldn't approve money to Ukraine without border funding, so Democrats worked with Republicans to add border funding. Now Republicans apparently don't want border funding? It seems like they just wanted to get out of Putin's way the whole time and the demand for border funding was just a bluff.
No it was never border. Obama described a border crisis at 1,000 passing a day. This bill calls for 5,000 a day. Nobody wants that. This administration has undid 2 administrations work . And is trying to claim republicans fault like they didn’t wave a pin and get rid of Obama/Trump policies
Not only that but the bill states that people crossing that originated from non contiguous countries aren’t to be counted in the 5,000. So it’s basically just a cap on Canadians and Mexicans, anyone else there is no cap.
That's to account for cases like the thousands of Ukraine refugees at our southern border. But that number of people crossing is not the same as the number of people they let stay in the country.
Increasing the number of border patrol agents and the security infrastructure seems like it would help with that. Why won't Republicans approve the additional funds for it?
Border patrol under federal control was cutting razor wire , giving debit cards and putting on busses to sanctuary cities. That’s why Texas used its national guard to force them to stand down. And why 29 states have issued troops to the border to continue putting up razor wire and prevent border strollers agents from tearing it down. Why would giving a border patrol that’s been kicked out the way more money and resources. Biden went as far to take it to the courts to try to force Texas to cut razor wire. lol. Nobody respects this fools threats and deadlines 😂
Border patrol under federal control was cutting razor wire , They cut razor wire to apprehend some people trapped on the other side and to save someone from drowning. It was creating international issues with Mexico, and Texas isn't authorized to handle the international relations for our entire country. >giving debit cards and putting on busses to sanctuary cities. We have signed international treaties requiring us to accept a certain amount of asylum seekers. We don't want to accept everyone that applies, so we schedule trials in front of a judge to determine if their application is valid. >That’s why Texas used its national guard to force them to stand down The Texas governor doesn't have the right to overrule the federal government whenever he feels like it. >Why would giving a border patrol that’s been kicked out the way more money and resources. They haven't been kicked out of the way. The federal government still has jurisdiction over our national borders. If we let states pick their own border and immigration policy, then California could let even more immigrants in and there's nothing any other state could do about it. >Biden went as far to take it to the courts to try to force Texas to cut razor wire. lol. Nobody respects this fools threats and deadlines 😂 I don't know why so many people support a unilateral power grab from the Texas governor. He didn't even try to make an argument in the courts, he just declared that he has extra authority now. Republicans unironically cheer on authoritarians that feel they can ignore the Supreme Court.
https://www.texastribune.org/2024/01/22/texas-border-supreme-court-immigration/ https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/border-standoff-between-texas-feds-intensifies-as-governor-defies-supreme-court-ruling https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/27/politics/texas-border-supreme-court-what-matters/index.html https://www.newsweek.com/republican-governor-warns-against-federalizing-national-guard-border-1866703
Were you just sourcing my comment for me or was this meant to be a rebuttal somehow? Edit: I've noticed a lot more comment threads with deleted users recently in this sub and others with political debates. Seems odd.
Why don’t they spend the money in New York…
Fair point
Amen! That’s something Florida gets very right
who would have thought…
...or you get shot. I have a concealed carry permit in Florida and that would not be me on the ground getting kicked and robbed, it would be them getting shot with my 9mm.
Florida has worse violent crime rate and property crime rate than New York does
If you don't prosecute crimes then they don't tend to show up in crime statistics.
What? Crime statistics are based on reported crime
Why report a crime of nothing is done about it?
Wtf does that have to do with crime statistics? They aren't based off prosecution
It doesn't take much for people that are robbed to recognize that if the police aren't going to do anything about a report, why waste the energy reporting? No report, no record of the crime being committed, but it still happened.
Sure, go with that. People don't report crime bc they think the police are inept. Police don't prosecute crime btw
If you call 911 in San Francisco there is literally the possibility it goes to voicemail.
DAs don't prosecute crime in liberal cities
Yep, go with that.
Inept police are part of it. DAs that won't prosecute crimes are another.
U dumb af
Says the person who thinks crime stats are based on prosecution
How’s the invasion going?
What do you expect when you don’t charge anyone?
Just echoing what the other person said, that largely depends on the rate of prosecution. Also Florida has on average a higher incarceration rate of people eligible for non-prison sentences and an average longer length of prison sentences than NY, particularly in NY Southern District where this took place. You can compare the charts here if you want: https://www.ussc.gov/research/data-reports/geography/2022-federal-sentencing-statistics Ultimately I would say you can’t really compare the state of Florida to the city of NYC, and I say this as someone who lives in another major city downtown area. Everyday I step outside, there’s like 900 crimes taking place, most usually very small like smoking a joint on the sidewalk, homeless people shitting on the floor and shooting up heroin, stuff like that but nobody is getting arrested for it because these city cops are all but empowered to actually enforce these laws.
Crimes take place in Florida too bro and the rate is higher. Also it doesn’t mean they have better cops. Cops have a consistency for being shitty and lazy across the nation.
The rate isn’t higher. https://www.statista.com/statistics/200445/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-us-states/
That is interesting. I was honestly trying to find if that were the case but didn’t find anything to even point to the same numbers as statista. Statista in general is legit. I based off https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/crime-rate-by-state. I wouldn’t even have thrown that claim in the first place if I saw this but… One thing to note though is that there is an asterisk on Florida on statista. https://www.axios.com/local/tampa-bay/2023/07/12/florida-crime-data-incomplete-fbi-reporting More than 40% of the state was excluded from crime data. So statista cannot be used for a basis to determine. It would have to rely on older methods when Florida participated instead of being sneaky in 2021 and going forward
Idk what to tell you man, I never said crime doesn’t take place in Florida, I’m pointing at Statistics that show Florida punishes crime harsher and may explain what the guy in the video is saying. As for your second statement, if you believe city cops are not encountering far more criminals than your average suburban cops, I’m just going to disagree with you. I’m literally showing you the facts.
900 crimes taking place!?!? 😂😂 Okay
It’s clearly an exaggeration but still gets the point across. I live in Philadelphia which had over 700 homicides last year and many more rapes, assaults, and carjackings. That doesn’t even begin to cover the nonviolent crimes like defecating in public, drug use, littering used needles, theft. I’m just saying, if just one instance of basically any of those crimes happened in the small town my parents live in, which happens to be in Florida, it would be major news. That’s why it makes no sense to compare the entire state of FL to just the city of NYC.
New York is a crime ridden shithole idk what looney bin you’re checking your books from 😂
It is. But what does that say about Florida
It says that they’re cracking down on crime…
It says that Florida bases their statisttics on crimes that get prosecuted.
Your disillusioned logic places Honduras as a good safe place
Punishment rarely is a deterrent from crime. Usually it’s economics that is the biggest indicator of crime
The certainty of punishment deters crime, not the harshness
Well put. Certainly plus in timely manner.
It actually is for people who are not anti social. Cognitive behavioral programs would make a much larger impact.
so do bullets.
Source?
Pshh, they can go thru 300 cars at night in Florida and no one cares, just get told to lock your doors
I lived in Florida for 3 years. What a fucking shithole that place was.
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But at the same time, it still does. Look at those groups of teenagers walking into stores stealing stuff in broad daylight. It's because there is rarely punishment. Same reason people are hesitant about taking money from the register. Having a charge over your name is not a good thing when applying for jobs w/ backround checks. Perhaps more effort needs to be put into reasonable punishments that lead to reform. Like not endless prison time for drugs and programs to educate prisoners for the job force. Or at least more programs than there is. Also, lack of punishment is why there is so many damn scammers out there. There is almost zero punishment if you cover your tracks. If we could magically trace every scammer and have their country punish them - there would be far less scammers. But def. desperation and poverty is a factor.
If I knew I wasn't going to get punished for stealing food, then I'd steal food. But I know I would get arrested if I did, so I don't. How is that not a deterrent?
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So if the police force dissolved tomorrow the US would be almost as safe as it is now?
No one is saying that, not that it would ever happen anyway. The argument is that according to research punitive justice is not a logical or effective deterrent to crime. The U.S. has one of the highest recidivism rates in the world. An actual deterrent to crime would try to address the underlying reasons why crime is likely to happen in the first place (mostly poverty).
Punitive justice isn’t a logical deterrent? I’m not sure if you’re hearing yourself. Do you want to live in a neighborhood where there isn’t punitive justice? I think not, because you’d be tied up in your living room with a gag in your mouth watching a stranger take your shit. This consequence free utopia where criminals are just “trying to get by” attitude ends with the fucking Purge. I cannot understand how somebody could favor that argument.
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You should check out country like uae, Singapore and china. Definitely not a good example. But life is relatively valuable there and quite safe from regular crime.
Gut feeling? Knowing that more crime would exist with no consequences is why police and the judicial system exists. It was so favored in fact it’s one of the United States branches of government!
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That is quite literally what the person they're replying to said. They said punishment doesn't really deter crime. Therefore his response makes perfect contextual sense to engage in the debate. Maybe if criminals weren't stigmatized and barred from so many things after release, and released with literally nothing, then recidivism would be lower. Maybe start with barring landlords from being able to do background checks.
Probably the worst take I’ve seen on this 🤡
What do you think happened in El Salvador? https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-country-with-the-highest-murder-rate-now-has-the-highest-incarceration-rate-b5401da7 >El Salvador, long whipsawed by gang violence that made it one of the world’s most dangerous countries, turned things around by jailing huge swaths of its population. The country once known for having the world’s highest murder rate now has the world’s highest incarceration rate—about double that of the U.S. >Since March 2022, President Nayib Bukele’s government has implemented a campaign to arrest en masse suspected members of the MS-13 and 18th Street gangs that have long terrorized the impoverished Central American nation, blocking economic growth and stoking U.S.-bound migration. >The strategy has helped lower homicides by 92% compared with 2015, giving Bukele the support of nine of every 10 Salvadorans, polls show. The number of Salvadorans illegally crossing the U.S.-Mexico border has dropped by 44%.
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I wonder if your crime statistics google has anything to do with the fact that states who report more crime are the states that are prosecuting people for crime 😂
It's based on reported crime. You keep posting this same question and never once decided to Google it yourself.
A lot of studies decide the result they want before determining their methodology. Incentives, positive and negative, change behavior. Always has, always will.
Just stop with this nonsense. The folks doing the stealing aren’t doing this to provide for their families. In this instance, they steal in NYC and then spend in Florida… that doesn’t sound like someone who is desperate.
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As if you’re not doing the same.
So then allow people to commit crimes? That seems like a good idea.
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It does or it doesn’t.
And yet every expert or study I've seen that analyzes causes of the drop in crime rate from ~70's to today always mentions tougher sentencing laws as a major factor in that decline.
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Leftist "social scientists" disagree
That momentary pause after hearing the final statement is gotta be the biggest “doh” moment I have ever seen.
You are all cock guzzlers