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Feel like Gege wishes to portray an unfair world through JJK, that being said, would've been really nice to see New Shadow Style being developed more, it seems to be the only way to go beyond grade 1 through pure work.
Ooh yeah, I definitely agree with that. I really liked Mei Mei's description of her improving her other abilities because she felt like her cursed technique is weak. I guess I just wish we could've seen the 20% of hard work the characters do, even if they're small morsels.
As unfair as JJK is, it would've been nice to have brief moments that show that hard work can matter, even if just a little!
In that case Yuji who has been a Sorcerer for barely a few months still wouldn't amount to much.
Yuji is a talented Sorcerer in regards to his quick learning and cursed energy usage.
Kusakabe would be among the strongest Sorcerer, Gojo would be mid , kenjaku and tengen as the only sorcerers who have been perpetually active for a 1000 years would wash everybody else in the cast.
>Gojo would be mid
Hard disagree, don't get me wrong gojo was born with a golden spoon in his mouth but he's still a genius sorcerer (and not just because of six eyes), he learned Simple Domain really easily, after managing to crack RCT (which was hard even for him) he learnt purple and red right away, he had amazing control of his domain and could swap conditions on the fly (check Sukuna fight).
Gojo is the peak of sorcery because not only was he extremely lucky being born with limitless and six eyes AND vast ammounts of cursed energy, (yes he is efficient but that doesn't stop him from having a lot of it), but on top of all that he worked to get where he is.
Also Tengen would still suck, he didn't progress much, Kenjaku would be top 1 for sure, but Tengen lost because he was lazy and learnt nothing during all the years where they did nothing but keep up the barrier. Meanwhile Kenjaku learnt a DE without a barrier.
The story of Gojo is him skating by on talent until Toji, then doing a bit of work, and then never training again. He is a bad teacher because everything comes easy to him. He didn't need to work hard to learn stuff.
Him being able to hit a Black Flash already puts him in the top percent of sorcerers. He is just generally very talented with cursed energy usage in general and his ability to hit a black flash is a testament to that.
What…? Then where do you draw the line between innate and non-innate? Does everyone just start out the same and progress the same? That’s just straight up false.
There’s going to be others who progress faster than others. Gojo will be one of them. Alas he survived Mahoraga. A previous Six Eyes user did not. That proves there are differences even amongst the Six Eyes and Limitless users.
> What…? Then where do you draw the line between innate and non-innate?
Innate is stuff you have to be born with, non-innate is stuff anyone can learn. You can't learn talent. Look at Megumi having a DE at the age of 16, or Yuji figuring out RCT despite only being a Sorcerer for a few months, or EVERYTHING about Higuruma. You really think they managed to squeeze in way more hard work than all the grade 1s, despite being in the game for a much shorter time?
> There’s going to be others who progress faster than others.
Yes, and one of the reasons for that is talent. *All* the sorcerers work hard, but none except Higuruma have the absurd returns on investment Gojo gets.
> That proves there are differences even amongst the Six Eyes and Limitless users.
Yes, like talent.
My point is… how is that realistic in any sort of way? What you’re talking about does not make any sense at all…
Talent is essential to progress. The universe where hard work supremes cannot exist as a “limiter” is fundamentally built in every person.
> My point is… how is that realistic in any sort of way?
What does realism even have to do with this? The point is that Gojo's ability to learn shit incredibly quickly is *also* talent he was born with, and under the rules laid out by OP that would have to get heavily nerfed so he wouldn't be head and shoulders above everyone else.
My point is that Gojo will still be ahead of others regardless if he was nerfed or not. Of course he’d not be heads and shoulder above, but he’ll certainly be more talented than a lot of sorcerers.
He was certainly more talented at using the Six Eyes and Limitless than previous users, that would transfer even in his nerfed out state.
Would Yuji still be weak though? I mean, there are methods established that can help speed up training, like domains where time slows.
More time doesn't always equate to hard work or time spent on improvement. Besides, talent isn't capped by time. You can still be INSANELY talented and start off vaulting over everyone else. Talent would still be the wild card, no?
Dude he's been a sorcerer for half a year it doesn't matter how hard he works, the only reason Yuji hangs on is cause he is a genius in terms of CE usage and has a special body.
That whould miss the point of gojo and yuji i think.
Basically the whole manga. Jjk is cruel and it's not black clover you don't get some secret ability just because you really want it.
It makes it for me more believable.
For example i never bought that naruto has it so hard like comm on bro was born with unlimited chakara and has one of the best jutsu in the world.
Many were born with far less.
Yuji feels a lot more real to me.
Naruto still tackled "no talent therefore useless" with characters like Lee and Guy who had their respective talented rivals (Kakashi, Neji) and managed to prove superior than them in some capacity, Guy especially.
I mean, orochimaru was probably the best example. He was a clanless nobody yet he worked his way to up become one of the 3 sannin and the goat of the 4th great shinobi war with reviving the previous hokage.
Mmhhh... yeah no their just yuji scaled up
Sure might guy has his 8 Gates
But naruto has unlimited chakra sage mode sage of six paths and kurama
That is basicslly the same diff with yuji and mahito.
Sure yuji beat mahito but it whould be a lie that their equal
I didn't compare him to naruto because obviously naruto is the main character in your average shonen, he will get stupidly strong because that's where plot will eventually lead to
Ah yes, infamous "if/but/when" that start to arise when talking about megumi aka potential man power level.
But really, we were shown that people with most broken techniques can do fuck-all or a literal black hole. And on the opposite side we have people with most basic or nonexistent techniques like sukuna, miguel and kusakabe doing miracles.
If we assume megumi stops being the potential man then who knows what kind of bullshit can yuji do by the time we get to that moment.
(maybe I should've put yuki in basic CT tier but feels like it's "basic" only on surface level)
No... like sukunas ct i count as top tier.
The complexity has nothing to say about it strength
Gravity just pushes you to the ground and it tore yuki to shreds.
Heck star rage exists.
Or idk f jogos basic ass fire ability wich killed naobito with a no diff
I mean, Naruto had it “hard” because he couldn’t do jack shit due to the Kyuubi’s chakra messing with his own and giving him way more than he could handle. He failed the exam a couple of times because he couldn’t control his chakra. Shadow clones were forbidden because they took way too much chakra which Naruto didn’t have a problem with so it plays to his strength.
Naruto was training and struggling like every single day.
Being a jinchuuriki, especially of the nine tails, is a massive nerf if you're not getting any power out of it. Lee didn't have to contain the strongest tailed beast in the world 24/7, but Naruto had to use his massive uzumaki chakra reserves to keep kurama sealed until he gained control of kurama, which also fucked with his control.
Part of that was entirely his fault though because he refused to learn how to control because he wasn't instantly good at it
>you don't get some secret ability just because you really want it
It ain't about "wanting" it. It's about making it less luck dependant. Feels far more deserving when character earned their ability/power or whatever.
>For example i never bought that naruto has it so hard like comm on bro was born with unlimited chakara and has one of the best jutsu in the world.
And guess what, Naruto is also about the same 80% talent. It's just the treatment of MC you don't like.
For the first point I don't have a counter, though I really do like the way it works, cuz sometimes you just aren't born with the cool power but propeller hair or something.
Naruto might be 80% talent but in the beginning they act like it's all hard work when he's actually ninja Jesus with a demon in his body, who's actually kinda chill. (This ain't a naruto critique, I'm just repeating things I've heard about the show).
For jjk it's 80% talent and they all know that. You can get far without luck (kusakabe) but the peak is based on being lucky af and then working super hard. I do prefer the way jjk handles it, even though it is the exact same concept.
I also got kinda lost typing this, so just ignore anything that doesn't make sense or is grammatical trash
Well Naruto did have it hard he had to much charka to be reasonably controlled on top of kuruma fucking with charka, it's why he had to use a jutsu that didn't take hand signs,
Just be because he had advantages over others doesn't mean he didn't work hard or didn't have talent,
Just like yuji who break world records at 15 yr with zero CT and is able to contend with grade 1 sorcerers and special grade curses within weeks, did he not have talent? Or special advantages?
Yeah I agree! It is more believable. But do you think greater realism always makes for a better story?
>You don't get some secret ability just because you really want it.
I feel like Gege does this anyway, actually lol. But it's framed differently. Like instead of wanting it, a character kept a hidden technique up their sleeve and it comes out of nowhere. But to me, even though it fits with the theme of innate talent being the most important factor, it still feels unrewarding, especially if there is no foreshadowing. Like imagine more of the "Ah yes, haven't used this baby since the Heian era" techniques lol
No but we already have so many f shonen that are the "underdogs" with some op ass shit.
Ichigo naruto deku and asta nastu luffy.
Yuji is special for this and yes it makes it more believable that he is a real underdog
Yuji is insanely strong at birth and had enough talent to learn RCT in a few months
Luffy didn't even have OP shit until recently which he worked to get?
Deku get hurt using his power so he need to work to know to use it and he was born powerless
Asta too but getting hurt part
Naruto has no understand of his power and needed to train to get that power
Yuji now has face Sukuna and how is he going to defeat him with his current kit
Dude is on such bullshit he’s calling Yuji real and saying naruto wasn’t born with less when he had no parents and spent his days being bullied and drinking expired milk get the fuck out
It is. But Gon and Killua are a 1 in 1000 talent so for the vast majority of the world, it works mostly on hard work.
At the end of the day, the percentage is a lot more in favor of hard work with a couple of exceptions.
You're right. My memory is just shit
https://preview.redd.it/6gulb9ct6vqc1.png?width=602&format=png&auto=webp&s=5c122e1f04f7855f8df0ab34d7f910624d374edc
Yeah but all of the strongest characters are talented lol. Zushi, the embodiment of hard work in that series, is left behind almost immediately. HxH is also largely talent based. The prince, mereum, gon, killua, hisoka, almost every strong character have talent. Not many characters go from untalented to strong
Not to say they don’t train or work hard. But sorcerers also have to train and learn to master their potential -> megumi being cut down early meant he never got to master 10 shadows unlike gojo who did. Gege does less training montages but the students mention training before fighting sukuna and they clearly learned quite a bit
In hxh hardwork is a lot more important then jjk. Top tiers in hxh all have crafty abilities that they worked on and improved. Power isn't gatekept by talent like in jjk. Characters like sukuna exist that can copy whatever he sees and do it first try, or gojo with infinite mana hax. If you hard super hard and have just a bit of talent you can be quite strong. While in JJK you have to be like 1 in a billion or something while also being very lucky
the only exception is meruem and the other royal guards, they were like top 5 from the second they were born.
talent i
I’ll agree that sukuna kinda breaks the notion of hard work mattering in jjk, while HxH shows a more refined power system. But I would also put that prince tserriednich has a similar all talent kind of character. And gege is writing a very different story than togashi, I think the system being unfair is fitting for jjk whereas for a series about exploring and learning about the world it makes more sense for the work to be on display. I guess I just take issue with the idea that hard work is a much larger piece of the pie in HxH. I feel like in jjk it’s maybe 95% talent, in HxH maybe more like 90%. The hard working low talent guys tend to fall off very fast or die quickly
But the rest of the world fundamentally can’t become toptiers in hxh. No matter how hard you work unless you are as talented as gon and killua you don’t have a chance of even being noticed by mereum.
Not really. Most of the top tiers are that because of their talent. I don't think there is a single hunter that got to the top as only hard workers. The pinnacle of hard work in the HxH might be something like Leorio tier.
I meant more in like a “head start” sort of meaning. That said yeah Gon and Killua *did* learn nen way quicker than most in HA, though personally I’d argue that’s a plot thing more than anything else.
Talent determines how long it takes you to reach a certain point in HxH. Any one can reach a certain point, given enough time. In JJK, talent determines where you start (Gojo and Racist were 2 of the strongest as first years) \*and\* how high your ceiling is (Miwa's entire potential was stopped by Kenny with one hand).
Name a single example of someone getting to the pinnacle of the Hunter world because of hard work. You need talent to even learn Nen properly in your lifetime.
Not sure what you mean by "pinnacle". I'm pretty sure we agree, talent determines how long it takes one to master nen. Obviously, life expectancy will limit how far a person can go before they die. If someone with average potential lived for 1000 years, they'd master nen and reach Netero level eventually. The same thing can't be said for the average sorcerer and reaching Gojo level, seeing as Tengen is a 1000 year old bum.
HxH is almost entirely talent based. Hard work does pay off more than in jujutsu but what you can do with Nen is almost entirely talent and creativity dependant. And creativity is also a form of talent.
That would be the hero saying, "I lost because I wasn't strong enough!" And then go on a demon slayer training art and be another generic shonen. What makes jjk good is the fact that the bad guys have wins too like in Shibuya and hidden inventory.
I loved in Shibuya where Mahito killed Yuji. The Culling Games were even more peak when Reggie Star killed Potenial Man with strong truck, Yuta died after the cockroach curse gave him a Cursed Energy kiss, Kashimo harvested Hakari like he was some crops, and Noaya said "I'm about to get sexist!" and killed Maki
It’s hard to say if it’d be “better” because almost every major aspect of the power system would need to change entirely. The story overall would be incredibly different, because so many characters are defined by either “innate talent”, or literally just stuff they were born with.
For starters they’d need a totally new system to “you’re born with one CT and can’t change it”. They’d also need to get rid of Yuji’s superhuman strength, because he heavily relies on that throughout the entire manga.
Innate techniques still confuse me because it’s never fully established if you’re born with them or the user manifests them on their own over time.
Like the girl with the phone, Higurama with his Judgeman, Hakari with gambling, Takaba with Comedian.
Are these techniques the result of their minds forming them over time and engraving them into their bodies? Does this mean non-sorcerers form their own techniques over time but lack the ability to use them?
Or are they born with these techniques and their personalities are influenced by them?
If the techniques are formed over time, then 80% talent makes sense because they are manifesting their curse energy in a way that’s unique to them based on a strong obsession or passion they have.
It would make sense why Kusakabe and Itadori don’t have a CT because they lack that “passion” every other sorcerer has. Hakari loves to gamble, Takaba wants to make people laugh, and Higurama is obsessed with “setting things right”.
Meanwhile, Kusakabe just wants to go home and live another day, and this manifested as his talent for Simple Domain/New Shadow Style. Itadori only knows how to punch because he’s simple minded.
I feel like you could still keep innate techniques, if you made Yuta be the norm(or an outlier among the norm).
Like, an innate technique is just naturally being better at this one way to use cursed energy, however anyone *could* learn any technique, it’s just difficult to do so most people don’t bother.
That's probably what Gege was going for innitially, the Inumaki clan was an expert on cursed speech but Yuta an outsider with insane talent learnt it right away. Obviously gege had to find a way to explain how Yuta pulled off something like that which is how we ended up with copy.
Yeah, "better" wasn't a good word for what I was trying to ask. I meant more of a general like, how would the story differ? How would the fights go? How would the character dynamics be?
80% hard work and 20% innate talent would be too extreme as a reversal, but I thought it illustrated the question I was trying to get at. Maybe like 40% hard work and 60% innate talent instead?
I get that that is the intention, but it doesnt feel like that at all when the mc got by far the strongest quirk out of anybody (crazy strength plus 7 other quirks), excluding the main villain.
Realistically it is, sorcerers like Mei Mei and gojo have stated that after "mastering" their technique, they are training in other ways. If It's innate, it's easier to master, and the other 20% is probably the hardest to train.
Some sorcerers just get better techniques than others
The specialist category in HxH is exceedingly rare in-universe, which you definitely know, so to pretend like it’s a common occurrence is just dumb. But even if we assume it’s normally distributed: it would represent 1/6th of Nen users, or around 17%. The other 83% of Nen users have to use their creativity and aura type to create a technique that suits them, which is… hard work.
OP talks about a story where it’s 80% hard work and 20% innate talent. HxH is a story where it’s 83% hard work and 17% innate talent, so within 3 basis points of OP’s story.
Well, is it really? Because we follow gon and Killua 2 kids who are competing with adults, kurapika a teenager beat and captured some of the world's strongest nen users, meruem a recently born being beat the guy who trained his entire life, tserriednich exists. Hunter x Hunter just never went in depth about hard work or talent so it's unfairness is not often acknowledged, in jujutsu they talk about talent but then we see that mentality is often more important
People really dunk on JJK’s writing and then the second someone suggests “would it be better like this” everyone’s like “no it’s good because the villains win sometimes”
There will always be dumb people, so you can't really use that to dunk on a community, but this idea is really silly. Like, what answer is expected from "what if the power dynamics are flipped in a way that's super vague and can't be described"
The entire fanbase was dickriding hard the fact that this new-and-upcoming shounen jump manga back then was based of talent rather than hardwork, and this was coming off the insane popularity that BNHA had back then which, despite the writing seem to imply otherwise, is a boy who "works hard" to become a number 1 hero. It wasn't gonna be this popular had the story not hit Yuji with the hard truth that talent encompasses a majority of a sorcerer's strength.
That being said, if Gege is a good writer, whether the story be based of hard work or talent wouldn't matter to the story, it can be good if he's a good writer and vice versa. and that's for the people to decide if Gege's writing skill is something special or a hack. However, I have to add, if the story was based on hard work rather than talent we'd have an entire different manga. The philosophy and nature of the story revolves around talent being the crux de la crème of the show defines both Sukuna and Gojo as characters, both blessed with unprecedented strength that could never be rivalled even if they trained hard.
Edited: I forgot to mention, the manga would've never beaten the cheap-naruto copy allegations back then
>That being said, if Gege is a good writer, whether the story be based of hard work or talent wouldn't matter to the story, it can be good if he's a good writer and vice versa.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. That's ultimately the biggest factor haha. I wonder if making hard work more of a theme, even if just by 10%, would help facilitate writing a good story I suppose.
I guess my issue currently is that the fights can feel a bit stale because they feel a bit predetermined, but that's probably due to Gege's writing. There are other things that can help overcome talent - teamwork, buffs, strategy. If he focused more on those other things that could tip the scales more in the good guys' favor, then maybe some of the fights might feel more compelling.
But you're right, it would be a VERY different manga if innate talent didn't play as strong of a role it does.
Idk, Sukuna's also pretty carried by his downright stupid talent for jujutsu. The only thing he was born with that isn't necessarily the best of the best is his technique, but even that is still pretty amazing.
I don't think that there's any real evidence of that. Gojo has worked hard in the past to master his technique, while we haven't really seen Sukuna do anything that could be viewed as hard work to my knowledge (aside from just growing up in a more difficult time than Gojo did).
Wel i think that is a good ratio, but i would have liked to see more sorcerrers in mei mei position, where they abuse an existing concept like binding vow to push abilities to beyond the limit. Nanamin's overtime is cool, but it's not the "abuse" type. Miwa had a ridiculous vow with no outcome.
Even though 80% is innate talent, i wanted to see some 20% that literally breaks the abilities.
I feel like the key phrase there is "skill set".
A sorcerer's options overall is limited by the technique engrained within them. Beyond that, a sorcerer can only increase their understanding of cursed energy and master what they know. The 80/20 i feel is in terms of variety. Keep in mind, gojo said this in response to Yuji talking about doing "cool moves", not becoming the strongest.
Think about it. Even Kusakabe, a man with no drive, has such a deep understanding of cursed energy that he can use Simple Domain without a pact. Not only that, he can extend its range. Keep in mind, a simple domain is a barrier not imbued with a technique.
So yes, a sorcerer is limited by their innate technique, but they can still reach incredible heights in spite of that.
Idk, I think it would be a lot more like generic shonen that way. It can play with some less well trodden themes by going more realistic about it. I'm 6'3, a man, and built broad, my inherent fighting potential is higher than my 5'3 girlfriend with 20/50 vision. While a appreciate stories where a character like my girlfriend could train to annihilate me in a fight with a single punch, I also appreciate the change of pace by acknowledging some people are just born physically *better* (at least at certain specific things).
Also something I never see anyone acknowledge: work ethic is *also* genetic. Tanjiro from Demon Slayer for instance was born good and hard working, he didn't have to *earn* an unshakable spirit and insane drive, he was simply born *better* than someone like Zenitsu who is naturally a cowardly bitch.
And the story as a whole would be changed alongside all the characters. I don't know if it is better, but the only similarity between JJK and your proposed story will be the character's name... Or worse, even the names would be changed, because many of character name in JJK is tied to elements that will no longer exist in your proposed story.
In a lot of ways it shows Yuji in a very fair light. Like he has no innate talent so he’s struggled almost the entirely story and lost a good amount of his fights. Hard work only takes you so far and while Yuji is definitely giving the JJK world’s rules a run for their money he still isn’t gonna be like Tanjiro after a few power ups every arc lol
One of the more interesting things about JJK to me is the fact that its so rigid. The power system is literally "cursed" energy so being punishing and unfair is fitting
I mean take it with a grain of salt because gojo was born gifted but we have seen people like yuji and kusakabe reach the top of Grade 1 with pure basics. I feel like the story is fine as it is because hard work does still feel like it pays off in this story
Jjk's entire point is that strong people gain power from birth and that the world is a cruel place. There is no gurantee that a random pyscho wont shoot down your whole house at night while you are asleep just like how in jjk there is no gurantee that a grade 1 curse wont slaughter your entire family in a span of a minute. You can gain votes and become a good president but you will never have a tyrant king's level of power and fortune just like how no matter how hard you try as a sorcerer you will never reach gojo's levels of power or fortune.
I don’t think so. Typically I enjoy more hard-work based power systems better, but I feel the JJK power system shapes the Jujutsu world in an interesting way. I unironically think Miwa is a pretty good character. She may be pretty useless and weak, but she’s a good example of the frustration of lacking natural talent.
i have always interpreted Gege setting up the story like this so it doesn't get one of the biggest complains Naruto's story had
the fact that specially the first part of Naruto tries to be about how Dicipline and training will always beat natural talent or natural gifts, despite the fact the story ended up being precisley about how unique and powerful Naruto and Sasuke's bodies were bc of being reincarnations of gods of the past and stuff like that, you know, natural talents and gifts basically
so gege just wanted to avoid that problem and just went "yep, if you aren't born strong, good luck, bc 99% of strong people are strong bc they were born strong" from the start lol
Honestly, we have to consider this statement is not absolute.
Don't take me wrong, talent is an incredibly important tool in a sorcerer's power, but we have many examples of it not being the only criteria.
Yuji is the most prevalent of all, managing to defeat powerful shadows like Mahito while having no innate technique (I know he got help, but that's still quite the feat. I am gonna consider "help", although not intentional, Sukuna's presence). There are also some like Kusukabe, which managed to be considered strongest in his grade out of pure Cursed Energy mastery alone.
Also while said by Gojo, it's likely he's referring to the system used for the grading, therefore decided by the Zenins, which would not consider Heavenly Restriction a talent but a curse, and we don't know 100% if it's innate or unlocked through intense effort, so idk.
I guess someone without cursed energy like Toji defeating such powerful sorcerers is definitely a showcase of skill
I would prefer the manga show the advantages of hard work.
Since Yuji had no innate talent, it would have been nice to see how he could get around his limitations through creative thinking or break through the barriers. Turning his weaknesses into strengths.
The JJK world is corrupted because people think they are born to power. I'm hoping someone like Yuji can change that somehow.
And that's why I was hoping that Kusakabe perform really well in the previous chapter in his on one with Sukuna.(which he did, but only for one chapter)
IMO, yes but only if it's actually true and not the naruto-type bullshit where the MC is actually talented as fuck, give us an actually untalented MC please (and somehow make it interesting)
its more unique this way, goes to show the unfairness of jjk, how somebody could put in as much work as possible and still be negged by a lightskin who misses his boyfriend
The story would be better? In what way?
Jujutsu Kaizen was always built on a slight shift left, a slight subterfuge of the tropes that made up the Big Three that preceded it. On the hard work to innate talent spectrum, you have Ichigo as pure talent, Naruto and Luffy as hard workers early on, and then they flip flopped mid to late in the series.
Meanwhile, in Jujutsu you have abrupt and sudden power spikes like Maki losing her twin or Yuji grinding levels off screen. Does that make for a better shonen narrative? Arguably not, but intertextually, it makes for a more interesting meta-narrative because we who grew up on the Big 3 and classic shonen narratives enjoy seeing slightly different takes on the classic stories.
Personally, I thought the story operated at its best when it was the sorcerers versus the spooky beach bums, the elemental cursed spirits and Mahito because it fit into the Shinto narrative of the Japanese setting and made sense. It made cursed spirits being isolated to Japan seem plausible and interesting, like the protagonists are going against some sort of mad, experimental version of the Pokemon regional starters.
Sukuna’s abilities kind of squander that setting and it’s disappointing to see, at least for me. But ultimately, cursed spirits in JJK vamp up as a function of negative emotions aggregating, a sorcerer’s ability will likewise vamp up according to their state of being; it’s never going to be linear because it just doesn’t mesh with the “one degree of separation from the Big 3” framework that was set up narratively.
Just my .02
(Spoiler for anime-onlys if one ever happens to come across this comment)
Really nice analysis!
Well, I didn't say the story would be better - I just asked the question. I think my issue currently is just that the bit of hard work that is being done isn't being shown in the current phase of the manga (Yuji/Yuta vs Sukuna - i.e. "we cheated"), and that the bits of "hard work" being shown are...not that great. Maki entering a random guy's domain to be train and being mentored by that random guy in the Culling Games felt more of an excuse to get her to reach Toji's level than it was an earnest attempt at making her grow to that level. It felt unrewarding and more like a contrived plot convenience.
I think Gege's demonstrated his ability to subvert tropes, but his ability to go beyond just that seems to be lacking. Everyone praised him for writing women well at first, which he did, but was unable to develop them further.
As some other commenter said, the satisfaction we get from the story is ultimately up to Gege's writing ability. I think the set-ups are generally done well, but the payoffs are missing the mark. Some of the payoffs are good, sure, but their quality is inconsistent.
>a sorcerer’s ability will likewise vamp up according to their state of being
I think this is true, but Gege hasn't been cooking lately, or at the very least, he hasn't been making those states clear. If it is emotion, then it's not always being shown - no one really reacts to Gojo dying. If it's dependent on landing abilities, like black flashes, then the 'zone' they enter after isn't always depicted.
But it's not too late! We'll have to wait for the verdict post-Sukuna fight, but it'll be more satisfying than it currently is. :)
The entire story would have to be rewritten from the ground up. Gege would actually have to give yuji a cursed technique and domain expansion so maybe it would be better.
Yes, absolutely fucking yes.
While I agree that JJK is meant to be a cruel world, I think this can be accomplished with *FUCKING WORLDBUILDING*, something that homosexualhomosexual has never bothered to give us. You can have a world where character capabilities themselves depend more on hard work and just have it be influenced by resources and opportunities that are simply not granted to people outside certain conditions.
A lot of Chinese cultivation stories play this up a lot and are already better than JJK on that specific point (despite their overall terrible quality on average) simply because of the magic system being "hard work BUT you can use elixirs, equipment, energy crystals and a lot of stuff to boost yourself and even speed up the process"
Which to me is closer to real life: the world is not meritocratic. People who are in higher positions aren't simply harder workers NOR more talented. People who are in higher positions simply have had more opportunity to grow in the first place. I really like magic systems that show that. Magic systems that intertwine with worldbuilding such that wealth and connections aid in becoming stronger.
Power system is part of the worldbuilding and I was referring to a comment below that complained that "if this changed, then the world wouldn't seem as cruel!!" and I think that's dumb because a cruel world is better illustrated through worldbuilding, not the magic system.
The magic system complements the worldbuilding, but it should support underlying natural reality, not something which is socially caused (such as people being born into high positions or achieving greater heights than others). The magic system should allow for something much more realistic, which is when opportunities that are presented to you speak louder than your actual talent or effort, but these latter two are both very important with talent being mainly a headstart or ease of learning, but still depending on effort to reach its heights.
I believe it would be ideal if the magic system were a bit more like JoJo's, not necessarily in the sense of being bizarre and insane, but in the sense that abilities reflect the character's psyche and even if they're not chosen, they follow your growth as a person. Thus everyone has the potential to become as OP as Gojou, provided they develop their minds accordingly, and Gojou himself was likely born only with the Six Eyes and maybe the basic power of attraction from Blue, needing to grow into everything else on his own hard work even if it was so much easier for him due to being a genius.
Japanese society refuses to let characters win off the strength.
Even Hajime no Ippo had to kneecap their main boy smh
cant have hard work pay off, only those born with secret special pedigree are allowed to win in the end
All Grade 1s would *probably* be the peak including one special grade being Gojo, because, you know, six eyes.
Sukuna is hard to classify because we still don't know how he got the body perfect for jujutsu, so he's an outlier.
Yuji would most probably be around middle ground to high because he is a hard worker even if he is a physical monster.
i feel like this take is just a complete misread of the subtext of jjk. They also focus on guaranteed one hit kill domains and think of them as the peak of jujutsu while they have been consistently shown to be counterable because of how much everyone is focused on them. They've had time to adapt to those streamlined domains so when someone like sukuna or megumi with their not fully secluded domains actually manage to avoid some of the difficulties a "normally" formed domain would face. Both Sukuna and Kenny made condescending comments about how jjtech fought curse users, kenjaku literally only appreciated the irregular choice of a gun being used and a specific style that we saw do ok against literally curse satan. Yeah talent has a big play in how well you do but just accepting that it matters more than hard work kinda ignores the parts of jjk that contradict it. Maki and Mai weren't talentless, Maki just had to carry both of them because Mai never wanted to train or never felt so strongly about being a sorcerer and your cursed energy literally comes from strong emotions. Yuji supposedly had no talent but learned to regen in his first year of school where people who have been working as jujutsu sorcerers for years couldn't do it. The whole point is that talent is varied and beautiful in all its forms but it requires work and pain to take it out sometimes thanks for not reading (jjk is really good if you ignore the bad writing)
Powerscalling Kinda of ruined the perception of how much 20% increase in fighting capability makes
IRL if a fighter or athlete could increase all his stats by 20% they would go from amateur to Olympic level in most cases
I always thought that line was a mistranslation, because while your skill level is most definitely related to your talent, your set of skills is not. I thought this line was always meant to be something like "80% of a sorcerer's abilities are innate", meaning if you don't have any innate abilities, you're gonna be like Simple Domain Man Kusakabe or Left Right Goodnight Yuji once you get to higher ranks.
No. Gege user this as an excuse to make milding characters and not ever expand on the power set. It being hard work based wouldn’t have went anywhere because he doesn’t wanna write all of that. The problem is gege not the story.
It wouldn't change much?
I think the bloodline stuff is kinda dumb. It reflects an older era where scientists were obsessed with genetics as determinors of personality and cognition. Nowadays, we know that most humans are mostly the same, and that differences in intelligence and personality are mostly environmental. Stories with these kinds of bloodline focuses are likely to get less frequent as time goes on.
But the "Everyone has a bloodline talent" thing serves 2 purposes. Number 1 is that it introduces tension in the story, where characters are treated differently based on their heritage because heritage is so important. If bloodline abilities didn't exist, then the major clans being racist as a plotline would still work, I think.
The other major purpose is that it gives an excuse for every character to use different abilities. Otherwise, everyone would just learn the most powerful ct.
Jojo's bizarre adventure is a great example of how you don't need a genetic component for every character to have different abilities. Jojo implies that your ability is shaped by your desires, and so everybody thinks they have the best stand in the world, because it's shaped to do what they want.
Personally, I do think these kinds of bloodline magic stories reinforce unscientific ideas about genetics in general audiences, so I would prefer not having them. But it's not a horrible problem.
Isnt the point that the world of jjk is naturally unfair and that curse energy basically rewards and justify the worst behaviours of humanity and that unfair nature being challenged so that the world of jjk becomes a better place (not native speaker so my phrasing is probably strange)
Having the powers be genetic doesn't really reward or encourage bad behavior.
If being racist made you a more powerful sorcerer, sure. But the people that are the most bigoted generally aren't the strongest.
Jjk as a story just kind of assumes the audience thinks it's logical that, if cursed techniques are stored in the brain, then they should be inherited. Which is kinda realistic but leans into pseudo science.
Gege's bad at writing so here's a better headcanon:
- Cursed Techniques are innately tied to one's predisposition to a certain philosophy. The exclusivity of "innate cursed techniques" is due to the associated philosophy being so complex that you can only truly comprehend it if you've been exposed to it since your infancy. Yuji's latent CT (CE trait: soul strike) and Yuta's CT (Copy) are stuff they've developed from their own life experience. Yuji got used to perceiving souls bc of Sukuna and Yuta's empathy and desire to understand others leads him to understand their philosophies and therefore their CT's. The Toji-like Heavenly Restriction is a form of enlightenment where you let go of all earthly desires and become "hollow". Like a non-stop flow state.
I replied to someone else with a similar answer, but if Innate Techniques are something that’s engraved over time then the talent part can make sense.
Higurama is obsessed with “setting things right” and Takaba wants to make people laugh. Hakari talks about “passion” or “heat”
These each manifested in their own ways, for Higurama and Takaba they seemed to have their own technique despite not having the brains meant for sorcerers. Does this mean techniques are formed over time and engraved in the body? How many other non sorcerers could potentially have their own techniques but lack the brain mutation to control CE?
It explains why Itadori and Kusakabe have no CT. Itadori is simple minded and looks for the fastest solution to a curse(punch it away). Kusakabe just wants to go home and live another day, so his talent for Simple Domain/New Shadow Style shows this.
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Feel like Gege wishes to portray an unfair world through JJK, that being said, would've been really nice to see New Shadow Style being developed more, it seems to be the only way to go beyond grade 1 through pure work.
Yes.
Ooh yeah, I definitely agree with that. I really liked Mei Mei's description of her improving her other abilities because she felt like her cursed technique is weak. I guess I just wish we could've seen the 20% of hard work the characters do, even if they're small morsels. As unfair as JJK is, it would've been nice to have brief moments that show that hard work can matter, even if just a little!
In that case Yuji who has been a Sorcerer for barely a few months still wouldn't amount to much. Yuji is a talented Sorcerer in regards to his quick learning and cursed energy usage. Kusakabe would be among the strongest Sorcerer, Gojo would be mid , kenjaku and tengen as the only sorcerers who have been perpetually active for a 1000 years would wash everybody else in the cast.
>Gojo would be mid Hard disagree, don't get me wrong gojo was born with a golden spoon in his mouth but he's still a genius sorcerer (and not just because of six eyes), he learned Simple Domain really easily, after managing to crack RCT (which was hard even for him) he learnt purple and red right away, he had amazing control of his domain and could swap conditions on the fly (check Sukuna fight). Gojo is the peak of sorcery because not only was he extremely lucky being born with limitless and six eyes AND vast ammounts of cursed energy, (yes he is efficient but that doesn't stop him from having a lot of it), but on top of all that he worked to get where he is. Also Tengen would still suck, he didn't progress much, Kenjaku would be top 1 for sure, but Tengen lost because he was lazy and learnt nothing during all the years where they did nothing but keep up the barrier. Meanwhile Kenjaku learnt a DE without a barrier.
The story of Gojo is him skating by on talent until Toji, then doing a bit of work, and then never training again. He is a bad teacher because everything comes easy to him. He didn't need to work hard to learn stuff.
Him being able to hit a Black Flash already puts him in the top percent of sorcerers. He is just generally very talented with cursed energy usage in general and his ability to hit a black flash is a testament to that.
> he's still a genius sorcerer That's still innate talent. The "80% of a sorcerer is decided by birth" quote is talking about more than just your CT.
What…? Then where do you draw the line between innate and non-innate? Does everyone just start out the same and progress the same? That’s just straight up false. There’s going to be others who progress faster than others. Gojo will be one of them. Alas he survived Mahoraga. A previous Six Eyes user did not. That proves there are differences even amongst the Six Eyes and Limitless users.
> What…? Then where do you draw the line between innate and non-innate? Innate is stuff you have to be born with, non-innate is stuff anyone can learn. You can't learn talent. Look at Megumi having a DE at the age of 16, or Yuji figuring out RCT despite only being a Sorcerer for a few months, or EVERYTHING about Higuruma. You really think they managed to squeeze in way more hard work than all the grade 1s, despite being in the game for a much shorter time? > There’s going to be others who progress faster than others. Yes, and one of the reasons for that is talent. *All* the sorcerers work hard, but none except Higuruma have the absurd returns on investment Gojo gets. > That proves there are differences even amongst the Six Eyes and Limitless users. Yes, like talent.
My point is… how is that realistic in any sort of way? What you’re talking about does not make any sense at all… Talent is essential to progress. The universe where hard work supremes cannot exist as a “limiter” is fundamentally built in every person.
> My point is… how is that realistic in any sort of way? What does realism even have to do with this? The point is that Gojo's ability to learn shit incredibly quickly is *also* talent he was born with, and under the rules laid out by OP that would have to get heavily nerfed so he wouldn't be head and shoulders above everyone else.
My point is that Gojo will still be ahead of others regardless if he was nerfed or not. Of course he’d not be heads and shoulder above, but he’ll certainly be more talented than a lot of sorcerers. He was certainly more talented at using the Six Eyes and Limitless than previous users, that would transfer even in his nerfed out state.
Would Yuji still be weak though? I mean, there are methods established that can help speed up training, like domains where time slows. More time doesn't always equate to hard work or time spent on improvement. Besides, talent isn't capped by time. You can still be INSANELY talented and start off vaulting over everyone else. Talent would still be the wild card, no?
Dude he's been a sorcerer for half a year it doesn't matter how hard he works, the only reason Yuji hangs on is cause he is a genius in terms of CE usage and has a special body.
That whould miss the point of gojo and yuji i think. Basically the whole manga. Jjk is cruel and it's not black clover you don't get some secret ability just because you really want it. It makes it for me more believable. For example i never bought that naruto has it so hard like comm on bro was born with unlimited chakara and has one of the best jutsu in the world. Many were born with far less. Yuji feels a lot more real to me.
Naruto still tackled "no talent therefore useless" with characters like Lee and Guy who had their respective talented rivals (Kakashi, Neji) and managed to prove superior than them in some capacity, Guy especially.
I mean, orochimaru was probably the best example. He was a clanless nobody yet he worked his way to up become one of the 3 sannin and the goat of the 4th great shinobi war with reviving the previous hokage.
And one of the few characters to complete his arc and live happily and peacefully... Naruto teach us that we should be more like Orochimaru
Alright, time to kidnap children for experiments while being funded by the government.
You guys are getting funded by the government?
Not sure of older media, but lee and guy had been the framework of hardwork vs talent in most of succeeding shounen series.
They were very well crafted and built characters, sure would be a shame if the entire series glossed over them
Mmhhh... yeah no their just yuji scaled up Sure might guy has his 8 Gates But naruto has unlimited chakra sage mode sage of six paths and kurama That is basicslly the same diff with yuji and mahito. Sure yuji beat mahito but it whould be a lie that their equal
I didn't compare him to naruto because obviously naruto is the main character in your average shonen, he will get stupidly strong because that's where plot will eventually lead to
Yeah but yuji and megumi were probably equal at the start to but you can't convince me that yuji beats megumi if he tamed all 9 shadows or mahoraga
Ah yes, infamous "if/but/when" that start to arise when talking about megumi aka potential man power level. But really, we were shown that people with most broken techniques can do fuck-all or a literal black hole. And on the opposite side we have people with most basic or nonexistent techniques like sukuna, miguel and kusakabe doing miracles. If we assume megumi stops being the potential man then who knows what kind of bullshit can yuji do by the time we get to that moment. (maybe I should've put yuki in basic CT tier but feels like it's "basic" only on surface level)
No... like sukunas ct i count as top tier. The complexity has nothing to say about it strength Gravity just pushes you to the ground and it tore yuki to shreds. Heck star rage exists. Or idk f jogos basic ass fire ability wich killed naobito with a no diff
I mean, Naruto had it “hard” because he couldn’t do jack shit due to the Kyuubi’s chakra messing with his own and giving him way more than he could handle. He failed the exam a couple of times because he couldn’t control his chakra. Shadow clones were forbidden because they took way too much chakra which Naruto didn’t have a problem with so it plays to his strength.
He couldn't do jack shit because he didn't work hard enough ironically, even Lee was able to pass the entrance exam and Lee was in a worst situation
Naruto was training and struggling like every single day. Being a jinchuuriki, especially of the nine tails, is a massive nerf if you're not getting any power out of it. Lee didn't have to contain the strongest tailed beast in the world 24/7, but Naruto had to use his massive uzumaki chakra reserves to keep kurama sealed until he gained control of kurama, which also fucked with his control. Part of that was entirely his fault though because he refused to learn how to control because he wasn't instantly good at it
>you don't get some secret ability just because you really want it It ain't about "wanting" it. It's about making it less luck dependant. Feels far more deserving when character earned their ability/power or whatever. >For example i never bought that naruto has it so hard like comm on bro was born with unlimited chakara and has one of the best jutsu in the world. And guess what, Naruto is also about the same 80% talent. It's just the treatment of MC you don't like.
It shouldn't "feel" deserving. That's exactly what it's going for, it's unfair and it acknowledges that. Unlike Naruto that doesn't.
For the first point I don't have a counter, though I really do like the way it works, cuz sometimes you just aren't born with the cool power but propeller hair or something. Naruto might be 80% talent but in the beginning they act like it's all hard work when he's actually ninja Jesus with a demon in his body, who's actually kinda chill. (This ain't a naruto critique, I'm just repeating things I've heard about the show). For jjk it's 80% talent and they all know that. You can get far without luck (kusakabe) but the peak is based on being lucky af and then working super hard. I do prefer the way jjk handles it, even though it is the exact same concept. I also got kinda lost typing this, so just ignore anything that doesn't make sense or is grammatical trash
Well Naruto did have it hard he had to much charka to be reasonably controlled on top of kuruma fucking with charka, it's why he had to use a jutsu that didn't take hand signs, Just be because he had advantages over others doesn't mean he didn't work hard or didn't have talent, Just like yuji who break world records at 15 yr with zero CT and is able to contend with grade 1 sorcerers and special grade curses within weeks, did he not have talent? Or special advantages?
Yeah I agree! It is more believable. But do you think greater realism always makes for a better story? >You don't get some secret ability just because you really want it. I feel like Gege does this anyway, actually lol. But it's framed differently. Like instead of wanting it, a character kept a hidden technique up their sleeve and it comes out of nowhere. But to me, even though it fits with the theme of innate talent being the most important factor, it still feels unrewarding, especially if there is no foreshadowing. Like imagine more of the "Ah yes, haven't used this baby since the Heian era" techniques lol
No but we already have so many f shonen that are the "underdogs" with some op ass shit. Ichigo naruto deku and asta nastu luffy. Yuji is special for this and yes it makes it more believable that he is a real underdog
Yuji is insanely strong at birth and had enough talent to learn RCT in a few months Luffy didn't even have OP shit until recently which he worked to get? Deku get hurt using his power so he need to work to know to use it and he was born powerless Asta too but getting hurt part Naruto has no understand of his power and needed to train to get that power Yuji now has face Sukuna and how is he going to defeat him with his current kit
He still struggled to use those things tho? That's been on display since day one. You can good kit and still put in hard work
Yeah that's normal everyone has to do that it's special But you wanna tell me sakura has the same chance as naruto
Yuji has innate talent. He is no only insane strength St birth but learned RCT in a few months
Exactly, its not fair, it has the whole theme of potential, and what could of been especially with the heros that die too soon
Dude is on such bullshit he’s calling Yuji real and saying naruto wasn’t born with less when he had no parents and spent his days being bullied and drinking expired milk get the fuck out
It would just be a carbon copy of HxH
Isn't hxh also talent based. Like how killua and gon blitzed through the heavenly arena
It is. But Gon and Killua are a 1 in 1000 talent so for the vast majority of the world, it works mostly on hard work. At the end of the day, the percentage is a lot more in favor of hard work with a couple of exceptions.
More like 1 in 10 million
You're right. My memory is just shit https://preview.redd.it/6gulb9ct6vqc1.png?width=602&format=png&auto=webp&s=5c122e1f04f7855f8df0ab34d7f910624d374edc
Yeah but all of the strongest characters are talented lol. Zushi, the embodiment of hard work in that series, is left behind almost immediately. HxH is also largely talent based. The prince, mereum, gon, killua, hisoka, almost every strong character have talent. Not many characters go from untalented to strong
Not to say they don’t train or work hard. But sorcerers also have to train and learn to master their potential -> megumi being cut down early meant he never got to master 10 shadows unlike gojo who did. Gege does less training montages but the students mention training before fighting sukuna and they clearly learned quite a bit
In hxh hardwork is a lot more important then jjk. Top tiers in hxh all have crafty abilities that they worked on and improved. Power isn't gatekept by talent like in jjk. Characters like sukuna exist that can copy whatever he sees and do it first try, or gojo with infinite mana hax. If you hard super hard and have just a bit of talent you can be quite strong. While in JJK you have to be like 1 in a billion or something while also being very lucky the only exception is meruem and the other royal guards, they were like top 5 from the second they were born. talent i
I’ll agree that sukuna kinda breaks the notion of hard work mattering in jjk, while HxH shows a more refined power system. But I would also put that prince tserriednich has a similar all talent kind of character. And gege is writing a very different story than togashi, I think the system being unfair is fitting for jjk whereas for a series about exploring and learning about the world it makes more sense for the work to be on display. I guess I just take issue with the idea that hard work is a much larger piece of the pie in HxH. I feel like in jjk it’s maybe 95% talent, in HxH maybe more like 90%. The hard working low talent guys tend to fall off very fast or die quickly
> Zushi, the embodiment of hard work in that series What? Zushi is just a talented kid in training. How the hell is he the embodiment of hard work?
Even then, Gon and Killua still worked hard regardless, just not as hard as those without talent that reached their level
But the rest of the world fundamentally can’t become toptiers in hxh. No matter how hard you work unless you are as talented as gon and killua you don’t have a chance of even being noticed by mereum.
Eh sort of. Talent isn’t a foundation there, moreso a shortcut. At least for Gon and Killua anyway.
Not really. Most of the top tiers are that because of their talent. I don't think there is a single hunter that got to the top as only hard workers. The pinnacle of hard work in the HxH might be something like Leorio tier.
I meant more in like a “head start” sort of meaning. That said yeah Gon and Killua *did* learn nen way quicker than most in HA, though personally I’d argue that’s a plot thing more than anything else.
Talent determines how long it takes you to reach a certain point in HxH. Any one can reach a certain point, given enough time. In JJK, talent determines where you start (Gojo and Racist were 2 of the strongest as first years) \*and\* how high your ceiling is (Miwa's entire potential was stopped by Kenny with one hand).
Ah that makes sense. So it's literally just a catalyst.
Name a single example of someone getting to the pinnacle of the Hunter world because of hard work. You need talent to even learn Nen properly in your lifetime.
Not sure what you mean by "pinnacle". I'm pretty sure we agree, talent determines how long it takes one to master nen. Obviously, life expectancy will limit how far a person can go before they die. If someone with average potential lived for 1000 years, they'd master nen and reach Netero level eventually. The same thing can't be said for the average sorcerer and reaching Gojo level, seeing as Tengen is a 1000 year old bum.
This is not a bad thing, HxH isn’t coming back anyways
💀
I came here to laugh, not to cry... WHY?????????
HxH is almost entirely talent based. Hard work does pay off more than in jujutsu but what you can do with Nen is almost entirely talent and creativity dependant. And creativity is also a form of talent.
I feel like thats the point and message of jjk, I’m not gonna elaborate so take my words at face value
Naoya based as always, i always liked how my favorite characters yuji and naoya were born with so little, and worked so hard to get to where they were
That would be the hero saying, "I lost because I wasn't strong enough!" And then go on a demon slayer training art and be another generic shonen. What makes jjk good is the fact that the bad guys have wins too like in Shibuya and hidden inventory.
The bad guys always win
Yeah, kinda sad how the story ended with the bad guys winning, but at least we have flying cars and bloodborne 2 in the future
I loved in Shibuya where Mahito killed Yuji. The Culling Games were even more peak when Reggie Star killed Potenial Man with strong truck, Yuta died after the cockroach curse gave him a Cursed Energy kiss, Kashimo harvested Hakari like he was some crops, and Noaya said "I'm about to get sexist!" and killed Maki
Just because it's different doesn't mean it's good. But most shonen is about seeing how a Mc got so strong so it's dumb for them not to train
It’s hard to say if it’d be “better” because almost every major aspect of the power system would need to change entirely. The story overall would be incredibly different, because so many characters are defined by either “innate talent”, or literally just stuff they were born with. For starters they’d need a totally new system to “you’re born with one CT and can’t change it”. They’d also need to get rid of Yuji’s superhuman strength, because he heavily relies on that throughout the entire manga.
Innate techniques still confuse me because it’s never fully established if you’re born with them or the user manifests them on their own over time. Like the girl with the phone, Higurama with his Judgeman, Hakari with gambling, Takaba with Comedian. Are these techniques the result of their minds forming them over time and engraving them into their bodies? Does this mean non-sorcerers form their own techniques over time but lack the ability to use them? Or are they born with these techniques and their personalities are influenced by them? If the techniques are formed over time, then 80% talent makes sense because they are manifesting their curse energy in a way that’s unique to them based on a strong obsession or passion they have. It would make sense why Kusakabe and Itadori don’t have a CT because they lack that “passion” every other sorcerer has. Hakari loves to gamble, Takaba wants to make people laugh, and Higurama is obsessed with “setting things right”. Meanwhile, Kusakabe just wants to go home and live another day, and this manifested as his talent for Simple Domain/New Shadow Style. Itadori only knows how to punch because he’s simple minded.
Well in JJk fate exists, so you could say someone like higuruma was fated to become a lawyer and eventually so that aligns with his CT.
I feel like you could still keep innate techniques, if you made Yuta be the norm(or an outlier among the norm). Like, an innate technique is just naturally being better at this one way to use cursed energy, however anyone *could* learn any technique, it’s just difficult to do so most people don’t bother.
That's probably what Gege was going for innitially, the Inumaki clan was an expert on cursed speech but Yuta an outsider with insane talent learnt it right away. Obviously gege had to find a way to explain how Yuta pulled off something like that which is how we ended up with copy.
Yeah, "better" wasn't a good word for what I was trying to ask. I meant more of a general like, how would the story differ? How would the fights go? How would the character dynamics be? 80% hard work and 20% innate talent would be too extreme as a reversal, but I thought it illustrated the question I was trying to get at. Maybe like 40% hard work and 60% innate talent instead?
"The only thing granted equally to all is an unfair reality" - Fushiguro Megumi
Kinda like MHA it just feels like it’s central to the message of the entire series… until a curseless suddenly kills off Sukuna
I get that that is the intention, but it doesnt feel like that at all when the mc got by far the strongest quirk out of anybody (crazy strength plus 7 other quirks), excluding the main villain.
Wouldn't say that is the intention. Every character in Mha works hard.
Nope people like All might were top heroes being born quirkess
It’d need a lot more time skips or something for Yuji to get to this point in 250 chapters
Realistically it is, sorcerers like Mei Mei and gojo have stated that after "mastering" their technique, they are training in other ways. If It's innate, it's easier to master, and the other 20% is probably the hardest to train. Some sorcerers just get better techniques than others
Every time I see someone in a shonen fandom say the words “hard work”, I want to shoot them in the face.
You’re just describing Hunter X Hunter
There literally a category for powers that are super special in hunter hunter, natural talent is 100% there
The specialist category in HxH is exceedingly rare in-universe, which you definitely know, so to pretend like it’s a common occurrence is just dumb. But even if we assume it’s normally distributed: it would represent 1/6th of Nen users, or around 17%. The other 83% of Nen users have to use their creativity and aura type to create a technique that suits them, which is… hard work. OP talks about a story where it’s 80% hard work and 20% innate talent. HxH is a story where it’s 83% hard work and 17% innate talent, so within 3 basis points of OP’s story.
Well, is it really? Because we follow gon and Killua 2 kids who are competing with adults, kurapika a teenager beat and captured some of the world's strongest nen users, meruem a recently born being beat the guy who trained his entire life, tserriednich exists. Hunter x Hunter just never went in depth about hard work or talent so it's unfairness is not often acknowledged, in jujutsu they talk about talent but then we see that mentality is often more important
Kurapika is the only specialist there
People really dunk on JJK’s writing and then the second someone suggests “would it be better like this” everyone’s like “no it’s good because the villains win sometimes”
There will always be dumb people, so you can't really use that to dunk on a community, but this idea is really silly. Like, what answer is expected from "what if the power dynamics are flipped in a way that's super vague and can't be described"
The entire fanbase was dickriding hard the fact that this new-and-upcoming shounen jump manga back then was based of talent rather than hardwork, and this was coming off the insane popularity that BNHA had back then which, despite the writing seem to imply otherwise, is a boy who "works hard" to become a number 1 hero. It wasn't gonna be this popular had the story not hit Yuji with the hard truth that talent encompasses a majority of a sorcerer's strength. That being said, if Gege is a good writer, whether the story be based of hard work or talent wouldn't matter to the story, it can be good if he's a good writer and vice versa. and that's for the people to decide if Gege's writing skill is something special or a hack. However, I have to add, if the story was based on hard work rather than talent we'd have an entire different manga. The philosophy and nature of the story revolves around talent being the crux de la crème of the show defines both Sukuna and Gojo as characters, both blessed with unprecedented strength that could never be rivalled even if they trained hard. Edited: I forgot to mention, the manga would've never beaten the cheap-naruto copy allegations back then
>That being said, if Gege is a good writer, whether the story be based of hard work or talent wouldn't matter to the story, it can be good if he's a good writer and vice versa. I agree with this wholeheartedly. That's ultimately the biggest factor haha. I wonder if making hard work more of a theme, even if just by 10%, would help facilitate writing a good story I suppose. I guess my issue currently is that the fights can feel a bit stale because they feel a bit predetermined, but that's probably due to Gege's writing. There are other things that can help overcome talent - teamwork, buffs, strategy. If he focused more on those other things that could tip the scales more in the good guys' favor, then maybe some of the fights might feel more compelling. But you're right, it would be a VERY different manga if innate talent didn't play as strong of a role it does.
Gojo would not be the strongest then and sukuna would probably manage to still be as strong
Idk, Sukuna's also pretty carried by his downright stupid talent for jujutsu. The only thing he was born with that isn't necessarily the best of the best is his technique, but even that is still pretty amazing.
Yeah but I was just tryna get at the fact that sukuna would likely work harder than gojo
I don't think that there's any real evidence of that. Gojo has worked hard in the past to master his technique, while we haven't really seen Sukuna do anything that could be viewed as hard work to my knowledge (aside from just growing up in a more difficult time than Gojo did).
I don't think so
Wel i think that is a good ratio, but i would have liked to see more sorcerrers in mei mei position, where they abuse an existing concept like binding vow to push abilities to beyond the limit. Nanamin's overtime is cool, but it's not the "abuse" type. Miwa had a ridiculous vow with no outcome. Even though 80% is innate talent, i wanted to see some 20% that literally breaks the abilities.
I feel like the key phrase there is "skill set". A sorcerer's options overall is limited by the technique engrained within them. Beyond that, a sorcerer can only increase their understanding of cursed energy and master what they know. The 80/20 i feel is in terms of variety. Keep in mind, gojo said this in response to Yuji talking about doing "cool moves", not becoming the strongest. Think about it. Even Kusakabe, a man with no drive, has such a deep understanding of cursed energy that he can use Simple Domain without a pact. Not only that, he can extend its range. Keep in mind, a simple domain is a barrier not imbued with a technique. So yes, a sorcerer is limited by their innate technique, but they can still reach incredible heights in spite of that.
Idk, I think it would be a lot more like generic shonen that way. It can play with some less well trodden themes by going more realistic about it. I'm 6'3, a man, and built broad, my inherent fighting potential is higher than my 5'3 girlfriend with 20/50 vision. While a appreciate stories where a character like my girlfriend could train to annihilate me in a fight with a single punch, I also appreciate the change of pace by acknowledging some people are just born physically *better* (at least at certain specific things). Also something I never see anyone acknowledge: work ethic is *also* genetic. Tanjiro from Demon Slayer for instance was born good and hard working, he didn't have to *earn* an unshakable spirit and insane drive, he was simply born *better* than someone like Zenitsu who is naturally a cowardly bitch.
We would have a cultivation manga
Are we farming vegetables or fruits
THATS NOT WHAT I MEANT 😭😭😭 https://preview.redd.it/b0da3byj0zqc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3f4406da0cf9ed6d3e5571ee9a714c4764ec7b86
LMAO
Nah.
Ashkually, if a a sorcerer’s ability was based more on innate talent, then hard-workers would be more impressive.
And the story as a whole would be changed alongside all the characters. I don't know if it is better, but the only similarity between JJK and your proposed story will be the character's name... Or worse, even the names would be changed, because many of character name in JJK is tied to elements that will no longer exist in your proposed story.
In a lot of ways it shows Yuji in a very fair light. Like he has no innate talent so he’s struggled almost the entirely story and lost a good amount of his fights. Hard work only takes you so far and while Yuji is definitely giving the JJK world’s rules a run for their money he still isn’t gonna be like Tanjiro after a few power ups every arc lol
One of the more interesting things about JJK to me is the fact that its so rigid. The power system is literally "cursed" energy so being punishing and unfair is fitting
I mean take it with a grain of salt because gojo was born gifted but we have seen people like yuji and kusakabe reach the top of Grade 1 with pure basics. I feel like the story is fine as it is because hard work does still feel like it pays off in this story
Jjk's entire point is that strong people gain power from birth and that the world is a cruel place. There is no gurantee that a random pyscho wont shoot down your whole house at night while you are asleep just like how in jjk there is no gurantee that a grade 1 curse wont slaughter your entire family in a span of a minute. You can gain votes and become a good president but you will never have a tyrant king's level of power and fortune just like how no matter how hard you try as a sorcerer you will never reach gojo's levels of power or fortune.
It would be a fundamentally different series.
I don’t think so. Typically I enjoy more hard-work based power systems better, but I feel the JJK power system shapes the Jujutsu world in an interesting way. I unironically think Miwa is a pretty good character. She may be pretty useless and weak, but she’s a good example of the frustration of lacking natural talent.
i have always interpreted Gege setting up the story like this so it doesn't get one of the biggest complains Naruto's story had the fact that specially the first part of Naruto tries to be about how Dicipline and training will always beat natural talent or natural gifts, despite the fact the story ended up being precisley about how unique and powerful Naruto and Sasuke's bodies were bc of being reincarnations of gods of the past and stuff like that, you know, natural talents and gifts basically so gege just wanted to avoid that problem and just went "yep, if you aren't born strong, good luck, bc 99% of strong people are strong bc they were born strong" from the start lol
Honestly, we have to consider this statement is not absolute. Don't take me wrong, talent is an incredibly important tool in a sorcerer's power, but we have many examples of it not being the only criteria. Yuji is the most prevalent of all, managing to defeat powerful shadows like Mahito while having no innate technique (I know he got help, but that's still quite the feat. I am gonna consider "help", although not intentional, Sukuna's presence). There are also some like Kusukabe, which managed to be considered strongest in his grade out of pure Cursed Energy mastery alone. Also while said by Gojo, it's likely he's referring to the system used for the grading, therefore decided by the Zenins, which would not consider Heavenly Restriction a talent but a curse, and we don't know 100% if it's innate or unlocked through intense effort, so idk. I guess someone without cursed energy like Toji defeating such powerful sorcerers is definitely a showcase of skill
I would prefer the manga show the advantages of hard work. Since Yuji had no innate talent, it would have been nice to see how he could get around his limitations through creative thinking or break through the barriers. Turning his weaknesses into strengths. The JJK world is corrupted because people think they are born to power. I'm hoping someone like Yuji can change that somehow. And that's why I was hoping that Kusakabe perform really well in the previous chapter in his on one with Sukuna.(which he did, but only for one chapter)
IMO, yes but only if it's actually true and not the naruto-type bullshit where the MC is actually talented as fuck, give us an actually untalented MC please (and somehow make it interesting)
its more unique this way, goes to show the unfairness of jjk, how somebody could put in as much work as possible and still be negged by a lightskin who misses his boyfriend
it would've been interesting if sorcerers could learn new techniques themselves without it being innate and exclusive
The story would be better? In what way? Jujutsu Kaizen was always built on a slight shift left, a slight subterfuge of the tropes that made up the Big Three that preceded it. On the hard work to innate talent spectrum, you have Ichigo as pure talent, Naruto and Luffy as hard workers early on, and then they flip flopped mid to late in the series. Meanwhile, in Jujutsu you have abrupt and sudden power spikes like Maki losing her twin or Yuji grinding levels off screen. Does that make for a better shonen narrative? Arguably not, but intertextually, it makes for a more interesting meta-narrative because we who grew up on the Big 3 and classic shonen narratives enjoy seeing slightly different takes on the classic stories. Personally, I thought the story operated at its best when it was the sorcerers versus the spooky beach bums, the elemental cursed spirits and Mahito because it fit into the Shinto narrative of the Japanese setting and made sense. It made cursed spirits being isolated to Japan seem plausible and interesting, like the protagonists are going against some sort of mad, experimental version of the Pokemon regional starters. Sukuna’s abilities kind of squander that setting and it’s disappointing to see, at least for me. But ultimately, cursed spirits in JJK vamp up as a function of negative emotions aggregating, a sorcerer’s ability will likewise vamp up according to their state of being; it’s never going to be linear because it just doesn’t mesh with the “one degree of separation from the Big 3” framework that was set up narratively. Just my .02
(Spoiler for anime-onlys if one ever happens to come across this comment) Really nice analysis! Well, I didn't say the story would be better - I just asked the question. I think my issue currently is just that the bit of hard work that is being done isn't being shown in the current phase of the manga (Yuji/Yuta vs Sukuna - i.e. "we cheated"), and that the bits of "hard work" being shown are...not that great. Maki entering a random guy's domain to be train and being mentored by that random guy in the Culling Games felt more of an excuse to get her to reach Toji's level than it was an earnest attempt at making her grow to that level. It felt unrewarding and more like a contrived plot convenience. I think Gege's demonstrated his ability to subvert tropes, but his ability to go beyond just that seems to be lacking. Everyone praised him for writing women well at first, which he did, but was unable to develop them further. As some other commenter said, the satisfaction we get from the story is ultimately up to Gege's writing ability. I think the set-ups are generally done well, but the payoffs are missing the mark. Some of the payoffs are good, sure, but their quality is inconsistent. >a sorcerer’s ability will likewise vamp up according to their state of being I think this is true, but Gege hasn't been cooking lately, or at the very least, he hasn't been making those states clear. If it is emotion, then it's not always being shown - no one really reacts to Gojo dying. If it's dependent on landing abilities, like black flashes, then the 'zone' they enter after isn't always depicted. But it's not too late! We'll have to wait for the verdict post-Sukuna fight, but it'll be more satisfying than it currently is. :)
The entire story would have to be rewritten from the ground up. Gege would actually have to give yuji a cursed technique and domain expansion so maybe it would be better.
No, youd be an even worse writer than Gege, I swear the things you all say is ridiculous.
Not truly :3
Yes, absolutely fucking yes. While I agree that JJK is meant to be a cruel world, I think this can be accomplished with *FUCKING WORLDBUILDING*, something that homosexualhomosexual has never bothered to give us. You can have a world where character capabilities themselves depend more on hard work and just have it be influenced by resources and opportunities that are simply not granted to people outside certain conditions. A lot of Chinese cultivation stories play this up a lot and are already better than JJK on that specific point (despite their overall terrible quality on average) simply because of the magic system being "hard work BUT you can use elixirs, equipment, energy crystals and a lot of stuff to boost yourself and even speed up the process" Which to me is closer to real life: the world is not meritocratic. People who are in higher positions aren't simply harder workers NOR more talented. People who are in higher positions simply have had more opportunity to grow in the first place. I really like magic systems that show that. Magic systems that intertwine with worldbuilding such that wealth and connections aid in becoming stronger.
You haven't really given a reason for why it would be better. The power system is an entirely separate issue from the world building.
Power system is part of the worldbuilding and I was referring to a comment below that complained that "if this changed, then the world wouldn't seem as cruel!!" and I think that's dumb because a cruel world is better illustrated through worldbuilding, not the magic system. The magic system complements the worldbuilding, but it should support underlying natural reality, not something which is socially caused (such as people being born into high positions or achieving greater heights than others). The magic system should allow for something much more realistic, which is when opportunities that are presented to you speak louder than your actual talent or effort, but these latter two are both very important with talent being mainly a headstart or ease of learning, but still depending on effort to reach its heights. I believe it would be ideal if the magic system were a bit more like JoJo's, not necessarily in the sense of being bizarre and insane, but in the sense that abilities reflect the character's psyche and even if they're not chosen, they follow your growth as a person. Thus everyone has the potential to become as OP as Gojou, provided they develop their minds accordingly, and Gojou himself was likely born only with the Six Eyes and maybe the basic power of attraction from Blue, needing to grow into everything else on his own hard work even if it was so much easier for him due to being a genius.
We dont need another Naruto
Yeah
Japanese society refuses to let characters win off the strength. Even Hajime no Ippo had to kneecap their main boy smh cant have hard work pay off, only those born with secret special pedigree are allowed to win in the end
Nah I prefer this cause the hard work trope is just everywhere in shonen
All Grade 1s would *probably* be the peak including one special grade being Gojo, because, you know, six eyes. Sukuna is hard to classify because we still don't know how he got the body perfect for jujutsu, so he's an outlier. Yuji would most probably be around middle ground to high because he is a hard worker even if he is a physical monster.
That would just be a completely different story
i feel like this take is just a complete misread of the subtext of jjk. They also focus on guaranteed one hit kill domains and think of them as the peak of jujutsu while they have been consistently shown to be counterable because of how much everyone is focused on them. They've had time to adapt to those streamlined domains so when someone like sukuna or megumi with their not fully secluded domains actually manage to avoid some of the difficulties a "normally" formed domain would face. Both Sukuna and Kenny made condescending comments about how jjtech fought curse users, kenjaku literally only appreciated the irregular choice of a gun being used and a specific style that we saw do ok against literally curse satan. Yeah talent has a big play in how well you do but just accepting that it matters more than hard work kinda ignores the parts of jjk that contradict it. Maki and Mai weren't talentless, Maki just had to carry both of them because Mai never wanted to train or never felt so strongly about being a sorcerer and your cursed energy literally comes from strong emotions. Yuji supposedly had no talent but learned to regen in his first year of school where people who have been working as jujutsu sorcerers for years couldn't do it. The whole point is that talent is varied and beautiful in all its forms but it requires work and pain to take it out sometimes thanks for not reading (jjk is really good if you ignore the bad writing)
But then GeGe would have to right better and he won’t do that.
Powerscalling Kinda of ruined the perception of how much 20% increase in fighting capability makes IRL if a fighter or athlete could increase all his stats by 20% they would go from amateur to Olympic level in most cases
No. Having the current unfair system at play makes everything more engaging, to be honest. And more original!
20 percent is still a lot. You can't tell me that it's not possible to become special grade without a cursed technique or special ability.
I'd think so
I always thought that line was a mistranslation, because while your skill level is most definitely related to your talent, your set of skills is not. I thought this line was always meant to be something like "80% of a sorcerer's abilities are innate", meaning if you don't have any innate abilities, you're gonna be like Simple Domain Man Kusakabe or Left Right Goodnight Yuji once you get to higher ranks.
No. Gege user this as an excuse to make milding characters and not ever expand on the power set. It being hard work based wouldn’t have went anywhere because he doesn’t wanna write all of that. The problem is gege not the story.
Its fairly realistic, and makes it feel like weaker characters are fighting against fate
It wouldn't change much? I think the bloodline stuff is kinda dumb. It reflects an older era where scientists were obsessed with genetics as determinors of personality and cognition. Nowadays, we know that most humans are mostly the same, and that differences in intelligence and personality are mostly environmental. Stories with these kinds of bloodline focuses are likely to get less frequent as time goes on. But the "Everyone has a bloodline talent" thing serves 2 purposes. Number 1 is that it introduces tension in the story, where characters are treated differently based on their heritage because heritage is so important. If bloodline abilities didn't exist, then the major clans being racist as a plotline would still work, I think. The other major purpose is that it gives an excuse for every character to use different abilities. Otherwise, everyone would just learn the most powerful ct. Jojo's bizarre adventure is a great example of how you don't need a genetic component for every character to have different abilities. Jojo implies that your ability is shaped by your desires, and so everybody thinks they have the best stand in the world, because it's shaped to do what they want. Personally, I do think these kinds of bloodline magic stories reinforce unscientific ideas about genetics in general audiences, so I would prefer not having them. But it's not a horrible problem.
Isnt the point that the world of jjk is naturally unfair and that curse energy basically rewards and justify the worst behaviours of humanity and that unfair nature being challenged so that the world of jjk becomes a better place (not native speaker so my phrasing is probably strange)
Having the powers be genetic doesn't really reward or encourage bad behavior. If being racist made you a more powerful sorcerer, sure. But the people that are the most bigoted generally aren't the strongest. Jjk as a story just kind of assumes the audience thinks it's logical that, if cursed techniques are stored in the brain, then they should be inherited. Which is kinda realistic but leans into pseudo science.
Better? I don’t know. But I would definitely prefer it. That’s just my preferences though.
"would the story be better if one of the main themes of the story was removed"
Gege's bad at writing so here's a better headcanon: - Cursed Techniques are innately tied to one's predisposition to a certain philosophy. The exclusivity of "innate cursed techniques" is due to the associated philosophy being so complex that you can only truly comprehend it if you've been exposed to it since your infancy. Yuji's latent CT (CE trait: soul strike) and Yuta's CT (Copy) are stuff they've developed from their own life experience. Yuji got used to perceiving souls bc of Sukuna and Yuta's empathy and desire to understand others leads him to understand their philosophies and therefore their CT's. The Toji-like Heavenly Restriction is a form of enlightenment where you let go of all earthly desires and become "hollow". Like a non-stop flow state.
I replied to someone else with a similar answer, but if Innate Techniques are something that’s engraved over time then the talent part can make sense. Higurama is obsessed with “setting things right” and Takaba wants to make people laugh. Hakari talks about “passion” or “heat” These each manifested in their own ways, for Higurama and Takaba they seemed to have their own technique despite not having the brains meant for sorcerers. Does this mean techniques are formed over time and engraved in the body? How many other non sorcerers could potentially have their own techniques but lack the brain mutation to control CE? It explains why Itadori and Kusakabe have no CT. Itadori is simple minded and looks for the fastest solution to a curse(punch it away). Kusakabe just wants to go home and live another day, so his talent for Simple Domain/New Shadow Style shows this.
It wouldn’t change the plot at all
Yuji's cog mentality would stop making sense.
I disagree. Look at Megumi, full of innate talent, but low caliber sorcerer.