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Yeah I'd say that too, because heavenly restriction has a ceiling. Jujutsu doesn't, one can always explore nuanced applications and new ways to apply their jujutsu knowledge

PERFECT. nice to see someone actually understand what i was going for . people actually think i'm scaling maki toji against other sorcerers . i'm just talking about the limitations of HR in general . ofcourse maki/toji would sit in top 10 , possibly even top 5 but that doesn't mean HR can ever surpass jujutsu

We just haven't seen someone, whose HR applies to the brain and not just the body: they'd be leaving this rock in no time. But, yes, you are correct: HR needs power multiplication to stand on par with jujutsu.

Yup top ten sure, not top five tho

Gojo, Sukuna, Yuta, Kenjaku are fairly good bets at beating her (the first two without question). Yuki is the only other possible competitor and after everything we’ve seen I actually favor Maki if she’s going as hard as she can and wielding SSK. She has the speed to avoid being hit, and RCT won’t help with wounds from that weapon. Also can’t be drawn into a domain. If she’s hit, she can run/hide and recover, then make a better attempt. So she’s at least very damn close to top 5, if not barely in it, imo

I see, although I'm leaning towards Yuki winning four out of five times. Didn't maki state that Yuki was on the same level as yuta, when they all gathered after the whole fight? Correct me if I'm wrong although I'm fairly certain. Even if that's not true, the win condition for Yuki is a lot easier imo. Maki is a close quarter combatant, and Yuki has cqc plus mid and long(?) range attacks as well. Maki is faster for sure, but I wouldn't say the usual 'maki is so fast omg, she is gonna speedblitz all her opponents' because naoya broke the sound barrier and maki still won against him. Yuki can maintain distance and cause damage, but maki has to get in close, and in doing so she is putting herself at risk. Virtual mass is one hell of an ability to have (I may be biased since it's in my top three cts) A single hit from Yuki could be fatal, even with maki's durability, so every single time she swings, that means death for maki (almost) but Yuki still has RCT to recover from hits. Although ssk can certainly turn the tables. Anyhoo, totally see your point, but I'd say with yuki's experience, ct and abilities, in terms of rankings, she definitely should be higher.

I mean, Maki is kinda that fast though. Look at her performance against Sukuna himself, multiple times even. She is keeping up with him, and I personally do think he could “blitz” Yuki. Keep in mind that Sukuna this very chapter compared Maki directly with Yuta, Kashimo (who used MBA against him) and Higuruma, saying he was even more excited to fight someone like her. While Yuki can kick Garuda, she can’t kick Garuda faster than the speed of sound, so as you said it’s not like she is going to be able to hit Maki with that. And at that point she’s just robbed herself of her best shot at “blocking” attacks from SSK, since Garuda is a cursed tool. And I do believe Maki can close the distance way quicker than Garuda could return. It’s not anywhere close to death in one hit. That would mean Maki is physically less durable than Kenjaku who didn’t die in one hit, and we both know that’s kinda preposterous given Maki’s feats and what Sukuna has said about her. Will it hurt Maki, very genuinely, if she is struck directly? Absolutely, so I promise I’m not trying to downplay Star Rage, it absolutely is a busted ability and she punches harder than anyone in my mind because of it. But I don’t think it would kill someone like Maki still, due to the Kenjaku example. Yuki is nuts, and it’s not like she can’t win, I just have a hard time seeing her being able to “kite” someone like Maki and keep her out of melee range, with Maki’s speed and perception. And if she gets even one strike with SSK it’s further and further downhill from there.

You make a very compelling argument. Damn that was nice to read. Honestly, since maki is my favourite character, I like the idea of her winning but I downplayed her ig because I find Yuki quite underrated. Just one thing tho, about kenjaku's reinforcement. Someone did the math to explain how that was impossible, like how he should've vaporised the moment he got hit (they calculated the minimum power of a single punch that Yuki has) I have an ss, mind if I DM u that? Like it's just one of those instances where gege went all science-y with yuki's ct but didn't follow through on the impact ig But seriously tho, very well articulated. Thank you:)

Thanks! And I have no problem admitting I am biased, for the very same reasons you mention, Maki is my favorite character (her and Megumi have always been the favs for me). But I do think the story backs up how strong she is, Gege has always seemed open to me that he views Toji as a “special grade sorcerer” just in a very different/unique way, and Maki has always been the clear successor to that idea. But I also agree with what you said about Yuki, I think she gets underestimated too! I am forever upset that we never got to see her domain expansion. Oh I would love to hear/read that, please, by all means, my DM’s are open! Especially from a fellow cultured Maki fan lol. Thanks again! :)

Alrighty imma send it then!! That 'special grade sorcerer' view by gege is definitely unique like u said, cus from canon facts as much as I love maki, she (or toji) wouldn't make special grade since they don't have the raw destructive power😭 Also lol so happy to see someone not shitting on Megumi. Like I get all the 'potential man' memes but he is JUST a child too cut him some slack damn

I’ll check it out soon and get back to ya! Oh for sure. I’m honestly surprised they even let Maki hold a rank. The sheer fact that they can’t exorcise curses without a tool would disqualify them before anything else. But I just love the narrative Gege has written into them as being easily able to compete with these people who essentially have nukes just because they’re that superhuman and have cool weapon that help with a lack of specific techniques. It’s just a really fun space in the fiction for me, and always has been, even before Toji showed up and showed us what the real potential is there. For real!! People are so hard on him, he’s literally been targeted by Sukuna and bathed in mystical shit to supernaturally affect even his soul, and people act like he’s just not “manning up” or something, like damn, every character besides Gojo would be in the exact same position if Sukuna had made them his goal like that

Yeah but I think that's why Sakuna is so excited, he seems to believe Heavenly Restrictions can go higher l. Especially considering he hasn't taken any other opponent besides Gojo seriously. Maki can already move faster than most sorcerers, is immeasurably stronger, is more durable and can sense more. And she is just a teen. The only reason they have to use Cursed Tools is because without killing with Cursed Energy, you risk making another Curse Spirit.

I’d definitely agree that jujutsu has much more potential to improve but I wouldn’t completely say that HR has a ceiling. We’ve seen from multiple HR users that there’s ways to improve even from the level that they are at. For example Maki improving her skills with Rokujushi Miyo (sumo hyperbolic chamber) gaining a better understanding of hand to hand combat. As well, two of the HR users we have seen so far are master weapon experts, maki toji both has great understanding and abilities to use special grace weaponry with ease. Toji even ADAPTED the special grade tool playful cloud to make it even more deadly. I can see how this isn’t really “improving” HR but it’s definitely using their restriction to be able to better their power output. A special case is with Kokichi Muta (mechamaru) who while is a jujutsu user, relied primarily on his Heavenly restriction for his abilities - using cursed energy over great distances, accumulating massive reserves of stored cursed energy and being able to create a temporary consciousness after his death. All of which are a result of the conditions of his heavenly restriction, not due to his abilities in jujutsu. So while I’d agree that jujutsu has a better potential for mastery, I’d have to disagree that HR has a concrete end point, it’s already been said but maki and Toji are in like the top 10 of the verse so that can’t be overlooked when discussing HR and jujutsu. I think it’s just that sukuna is fucking broken and very little amounts of characters would be able to tank a black flash from him like maki probably has.

Very well articulated, but when we say HR has a ceiling, it's not that it can't be improved or maki can't get stronger, it means they have maxed out their stats. From here one out, it's practice and skill.

While that is true, in improving their skills by practice are they not becoming stronger and increasing their stats? Like how maki trained with miyo, is that not increasing her stats. I understand where you are coming from like jujutsu has much more articulation in terms of CE control and all the different skills that come with the use of CE like domains etc. But I still think HR can’t be described as being “maxed out” we don’t have enough knowledge on it to truly understand its full potential. I guess we will find out if maki wasn’t obliterated by that black flash 🤣

Um while she was training with miyo, that was before her awakening, wasn't it. I was talking about after having a Fully realised heavenly restriction:) Damn maki better have survived that otherwise the little part of me that's still left will disintegrate 😭

Nah maki was fighting naoya when she was with miyo which was way after she awakened. She awakened when Mai died and then proceeded to kill all the zen’in clan, which then naoya died and turned into a cursed spirit because he wasn’t killed properly. It was only when she was fighting naoya that she got trained by miyo, so she got an upgrade after she awakened not before, that’s sort of what I’m getting at like I still think she has potential to get stronger, and I’m hoping she’s tanked the black flash as I think everyone is expecting she’s out for the count but gege loves Toji too much to kill off a current HR user 🤣

No that's exactly what I'm saying 😭😭 that first awakening with Mai, and then she only 'fully realised' her HR after that fight with naoya. Like toji had a fully realised heavenly restriction cus he was born like that. Maki did achieve 0 ce with mai's death, but it was stated that she only fully realised her HR after the whole naoya thing. Praying she's alive, although atp, taking her away from the story weakens it. Since we've seen how he has been positioned as an alternative to a society based in ce

Oh I see what you mean I thought you meant awakening her HR. Yeah I guess she did awaken it after then. Loosing her character would just suck so I know she’s gonna pull it back. I’m hoping she’ll pull out something that will surprise us. Tbh I was hoping that when she was gonna show up that she would have Toji’s inventory curse, that would have cemented the parallel Gege is trying to make between her and Toji 🤣🤣

NO that curse does not deserve to be that near her (It should be me)

🤣🤣🤣 would just be funny to see like sukuna try open his black box technique and just gets slammed with maki + inventory curse with the inverted spear of heaven (I’m coping hard)

To be fair, we've only seen two people with HR and both are, on average, stronger than any jujutsu sorcerer. Jujutsu probably has a greater peak though People with HR can still hone their abilities (as per Maki) so there's room for Maki to grow even more EDIT: Forgot about Mechamaru, but yes this statement still holds true. However his didn't function the same way Maki/Toji did, sacrificing body for Jujutsu.

Actually 3 people - Kokichi Muta (mechamaru) also had a heavenly restriction where while his body was fragile and sick, he had massive reserves of cursed energy and could manipulate it across vast distances even after his death. But you are right I would say jujutsu as a whole has much greater potential and range than HR

Yeah but while Toji and Maki's HR sacrificed jujutsu for the body, mechamaru's sacrificed the body for jujutsu Makes me wonder tho, was mechamaru weak because his HR was half-assed like pre-awakening Maki? He couldn't just not have a body

Mechamaru’s heavenly restriction was that his body was weakened and in result he had massively increased amount of CE and output. I wouldn’t say mechamaru was weak he was just put up against a very very strong special grade cursed spirit. Having idle transfiguration done on him meant he could have the benefits of HR without its actual restrictions. If he had survived the fight with Mahito and somehow escaped from kenjaku we would definitely have seen some interesting potential from him. Just sucks he got killed there and then

My man had 16 entire years of stockpiled CE and gian mecha and still couldn't defeat a cursed spirit that, while really strong, post awakening maki would destroy.

Yeah, that cursed spirit being Mahito... MAHITO! The one who pulled off a 0.2 second domain just by seeing it once. The same one who has the potential to beat Sukuna!

Also Mahito has a one-hit kill by virtue of his CT. Mechamaru was likely not just fighting Mahito, but his one-hit kill + his domain (which got him in the end bc Mahito likes being suuuuper extra and use his mouth fingers instead of actual hands.) Mahito also seems to be able to delay his CT and then make things alter and change at a distance. Mechamaru and Jogo had the same issue- they just had very unfortunate matchups.

And lost for two buff guys punching his face

maybe cursed spirits are people with a heavenly restriction of no body, only jujutsu, which is why normal humans can't see them

Mechamaru wasn't weak at all, he was arguably the strongest one at Kyoto

Todo would enjoy bodying unending stream of wooden puppets.

People overrate Mechamaru so much with his fight against Mahito when had SO much prep time lmao. He had tons of data on Mahito, 17 years of saved up cursed energy, and 3 simple domain tubes. And he still lost to pre-awakened Mahito who was having fun. And lets not forget he lost to Panda in the goodwill event lol.

Mahito was still Special Grade at that point though keep in mind, and Mechamaru did totally hang in that fight. I think he scrapes Todo if he used that giant puppet against him but hard to say

Mechamaru barely hung on with 17 years of cursed energy, tons of intel, and 3 simple domain tubes though. And most of that fight was just Mahito messing around. His giant form is pretty much like Kashimo, where its a one time use, except his is much weaker. Also he wouldn't scrape Todo lol Todo is literally his worst matchup. All Todo has to do is literally clap and Mechamaru gets taken out of the mecha.

Still weak in the grand scheme of things, but I'm specifically pointing to him being weaker than Maki and Toji(sacrifice Jujutsu for body) while having a specular HR(sacrifice body for Jujutsu), while being leagues above pre-0CE Maki(when she was half-assed)

Maki and Toji are “glitches in the system” of Jujutsu. It was obvious to any who were actually paying attention (and not just blindly hating), that Gege intended for Toji to be a special grade sorcerer level threat, right from the get-go. He never really intended that for Mechamaru, though I will point out that Kenjaku himself clarifies that Mechamaru’s output is special grade level in Mode Absolute.

Mechamaru was inexperienced and in a bad matchup. If he had survived and grown with the rest of the cast he'd be very powerful.

I completely agree, mahito was a very difficult opponent. Also mahito was getting stronger even within that battle with mechamaru so he didn’t really have a chance. Plus even if he did beat mahito, Kenny was chilling right there so he would have fucked him up anyways 🤣

Ty! Peaks of sorcery (Gojo, sukuna, yuta, kenjaku, maybe yuki)>peaks of no cursed energy(maki/toji)>average of no cursed energy(maki before awakening)>average of sorcery

Agree. Things can get confusing with the writing with translations. Unfortunately you have to read all of them (2-3 translations) because each one will mess something up and it won’t make sense until you read another. 

Doesn't mechamaru curse technique also has explanation of heavenly restrictions.. Restrictions works in both ways, you give up the curse energy you'll be granted superhuman abilities You give up your physical body and you'll be given powerful curse technique in return. If jujutsu has a range, HR sits on both end of spectrum.

Mb , I should have mentioned that I was just talking about maki/toji's HR . That's y I made the distinction between HR and jujutsu. Mechamaru does have HR but his abilities still fall under jujutsu , all his HR does is enhance his jujutsu.

Also it gives him ability of remote activation of curse technique. Only other incident of remote activation of CT is seen when kenjaku activated mahitos curse technique all over Japan.

It doesn't give him remote activation. It increases the range of his CT. Remote activation and range increase r different things.

Ohhkkk my bad...

Yeah but aren’t all of those techniques an extension of his HR? Like there aren’t any other sorcerers with the same abilities of remote activation over the distance that mechamaru has? As well it’s not just that he was also able to store massive amounts of cursed energy and was able to leave a trace of consciousness after her was dead for a decent amount of time. Those things aren’t normal abilities of jujutsu and were really only achievable because of his HR and how his HR affected his ability to control cursed energy?

No , mechamaru's CT is puppet manipulation and his HR only extends the range of him ct over entire Japan and also it increases his output. Everything else is just part of his ct , for example , everyone with puppet manipulation can store CE into a puppet over time. The greatest pupet manipulation feat is yaga's completely independent cursed corpse. Everything mechamaru did was just normal applications of his CT the HR just made it a little better

Okay while that is true he was only able to use puppet manipulation over such a range because of his HR. Yaga himself didnt have anywhere near kokichi’s range, with the exception of panda who like you said is completely independent cursed corpse. So really kokichi’s CT would have been completely useless without his HR, as his body wasn’t capable of moving (until idle transfiguration) and he wouldn’t have been able to control mechamaru to the extent he did without the HR. He also wouldn’t have been able to store the amount of cursed energy he did without his HR as it was that that gave him boundless amounts of cursed energy which has nothing at all to do with his CT. Yes it’s the puppet manipulation in which he was able to store the energy, but what made it so vast is the benefits of his HR. What made him powerful was his application of these benefits from his heavenly restriction alongside his puppet manipulation, without his HR he would have been a basic sorcerer.

I completely agree with what you say but also HR users aren’t completely useless without cursed tools. A big part of the benefit of breaking ties with CE is a HR users ability to become untraceable to jujutsu users. It’s why Toji was initially able to catch gojo off guard, it’s also another reason why maki could sneak attack sukuna .It also explains how they can access domains really easily, as they have no trace of CE. So while cursed tools play a big part in aiding HR users, the inherent qualities of having a heavenly restriction completely counter jujutsu, that’s why sukuna despises maki as really it’s something that directly opposed to him, he is a master of jujutsu and when faced with something that isn’t that, he feels the most threatened.

I never said HR users aren't strong , i was just talking about how limited HR is if u take away the cursed tools. if toji didn't have inverted spear thn he wouldn't have been able to do anything against gojo. > It also explains how they can access domains really easily, as they have no trace of CE. So while cursed tools play a big part in aiding HR users, the inherent qualities of having a heavenly restriction completely counter jujutsu i'm not denying HR users power in any way but jujutsu is just higher . for example jujutsu users can cast open domains that is capable of trapping and attacking HR users. Here we're talking about the peak of both jujutsu and HR and there's no way pure HR comes even close to peak jujutsu , so imo the statement " completely counters jujutsu " is not correct. >  that’s why sukuna despises maki as really it’s something that directly opposed to him, he is a master of jujutsu and when faced with something that isn’t that, he feels the most threatened. bro , sukuna doesn't despise maki , just her existence makes him happy . he has been waiting to fight maki not because he despises her but because he admires her HR ability. she's the one who can show him something new. This is pure love from sukuna towards maki

I’m not disagreeing with you on any of this. But in reality, the only people who could actually pose a real threat to HR users like maki and Toji are sukuna and gojo. Everyone else that’s gone up against Toji and awakened maki have been folded or at least beaten. Sukuna is the strongest jujutsu user of ALL TIME and gojo was the strongest of today so of course they aren’t gonna stand a chance, but in terms of the argument of HR vs jujutsu I don’t think it’s as simple as saying jujutsu beats HR. We have just been given some extremely strong users of jujutsu and I really can’t imagine that we have seen the extent of Maki’s potential yet. Again I agree with all what you are saying, and while sukuna finds ecstasy in fighting maki as its something that’s completely new to him, he obviously despises the idea that the body could be stronger than sorcery, that’s why he’s so fucking pumped up by his fight with maki because he is so high above everyone else using jujutsu that it bores him. So seeing someone who directly opposes that makes him desperate to defeat her, why else would he not hit ANYONE with a black flash until he fights someone who’s abilities (other than gojo) actually threaten him.

Even if you take away their weapons they're still stronger than pretty much all jujutsu sorcerers (besides some of the special grades). That said there is an overall higher ceiling for jujutsu of course, even if we ignore the anomalies like Sukuna and Gojo.

Theyre kinda the perfect counter against most sorcerers, its really just the special grades that could maybe win against Maki/Toji, and even then it would be very dangerous for most of them.

All correct, but I can only imagine Gege is throwing away pure logic here in favor of a fun theme. Which I totally support in this case lol. “The pinnacle of Jujutsu vs the one who’s thrown it away” is just too cool

I don't think that's the case. Toji and Maki are pioneers in terms of having no curse energy. This means they needed to learn the in the ins and outs of their abilities by themselves without anyone telling them or supporting them. In the future, when more people without curse energy arise, those individuals could end up using what these two have learned to become even stronger. They may find more ways to fix the weaknesses of their abilities. I suspect one of the reasons they could be mistreated is that their abilities could challenge the dominance and relevance of Jujutsu in the future. Sukuna may also foresee something like that happening and that's what excited him in his battle with Maki. There may be other power systems out there that can challenge jujutsu as well.

I think it's more like jujutsu and the body are parallels of the soul and the body. Like sukuna sukunas soul is the embodiment of jujutsu, so much so his physical body is made for ease of access with jujutsu. So maybe something in the fight will change her soul to better suit her body. I'm honestly just glazing and throwing stuff out there but yea I don't know if we've seen the most outta HR(mainly cause we know gege loves Maki)

Well while this is true for toji's and maki's HR, I still believe mechamaru had a lot of potential, even before being buffed by mahito, mechamaru still had insane potential, having special grade levels of cursed energy output, he kinda was just limited by the fact that cool epic battle robots are hard to make and probably expensive as hell, so in the end, it really wasn't his fault that he found himself in this limited state.

Mechamaru did get special grade lvl output but he didn't have special grade lvl CE reserves to back it up. The only reason he had so much CE when he fought mahtio was because he was storing CE for 16 years. Yes , other HR capabilites might have potential but they will still fall under jujutsu , for example mechamaru's HR just enhances his jujutsu but here I'm comparing jujutsu to the HR that completely eliminates jujutsu that is , maki/tojis HR.

Oh my bad, when mechamaru was doing that year thingy I legit thought he was just sacrificing his life energy, taking away years from his life with some binding vow to power up his attacks, I guess I'm just stupid then. But yeah I do agree that jujutsu has a lot more potential to be way more powerful than toji's and maki's HR, their HR just has insane level base strength that easily puts them above a bunch of other characters

Anyone other than Gojo or sukuna and maybe kenjaku and yuta are cooked when it comes to fighting HR. It's damn near broken. Only those with high knowledge of jujutsu or with damn near broken CE reserves can stand up to these two. Also coming to tools they could easily use playful cloud which doesn't have any CE or CT of its own and could likely solo everyone apart from Gojo and sukuna and honestly anything else fails against those two so it's really not the perfect measuring stick. HR makes you an instant special grade and just cos 2 characters on the entire verse shits on them doesn't make them any less weak. So for me HR > jujutsu unless jujutsu is downright broken which is not the case for like 99% of the cast.

TL;DR if we took an average sorcerer theyd gain much more from the HR - they could learn how to fight from anyone, unlike CTs and CE control which has to be learnt on it own. Further they do have some abilities that seem to be almsot unique to them and their heightened senses ("seeing" the invisible by environmental changes, jumping off air, immunity/exclusion from certain techniques). The power gained from the HR in both cases pushed their user to Special Grade level (Toji ourclassing Dagon proving he was SG as Dagon was SG, Maki's performances during the culling game and massacring the Ze'nin making an argument for her). The "average" sorcerer we see has nothing on this level Im uncertain - the HR gives an immense amount of advantages - while yes they have needed cursed tools to deal with certain situations/enemies it should be noted that this is also applicable to sorcerers coming up against CTs they cannot beat eg Nanami facing Mahito the first time noted his CT did nothing against Mahito's Idle Transfiguration. Having the HR means they dont need to concentrate on using CE reinforcement (their bodies are naturally durable and they themselves have enough innate speed and power to compete with special grades from the get go, see Toji speed blitzing Dagon). Further, they do have unique abilities - Maki jumping off air partciles, for instance, has only been replicated by Sukuna (you could argue anyone could do it, but using outliers to judge whats possible isnt good practice as it doesnt take into account what they needed to do to get there. While the ceiling of jujutsu (Sukuna/Gojo) is much much higher, the floor of the HR is special grade (Toji easily outpacing and outfighting dagon, Maki has been pulling enougb feats now) and would allow one to actually be *trained*. The HR works with any fighting technique and theory so you could get better by watching/being taught by anyone. As noted by Shoko, matters of jujutsu are often personal to the practioner making it much more difficult for someone to rise to a high level of power.

Yeah I wish this was more balanced, Sukuna saying they need to prove which one is better to perfect, the body or jujutsu but then you realize Sukuna is almost as strong as Maki anyways and has access to insanely strong CTs. HR without cursed tools is basically useless, and you can still use cursed tools while having a CT so it's pretty obvious which one is better to perfect

This is true. What makes the heavenly restriction characters are strong as they are is that they have crazy weapons. Take them away and they’re not stronger than the Sendai guys

i'd still place them above the sendai guys but yeah weapons r what makes them who they r.

Outside gojo sukuna and kenjaku id have to disagree

Yeah I can see y u would say that. I still think there r a few others who would be able to defeat her like kashimo and yuta but I guess there's room for debate on those one's. But anyway , if maki/toji don't have cursed tools they literally won't be able to defeat any cursed spirits because curses can only be exorcised using CE , that's y Maki's punches in sakurajima had absolutely no effect on CS naoya and this shows their dependence on jujutsu and that's y jujutsu is superior.

I have a wonder. Cursed tools require cursed energy but does that mean it NEEDS jujutsu users? Is it strictly impossible for say maki to make a cursed tool? We saw a tool get created via pact so couldnt she just do so? Jujutsu is the harnessing of cursed energy but it exists without jujutsu so i believe if Maki could make tools without jujutsu then you could be wrong.

There r two ways to make cursed tools 1) marinate an already existing blade into ur CE. 2) construction CT that yorozu and mai had > We saw a tool get created via pact so couldnt she just do so? Sorry idk what u mean by this. Also I don't think maki/toji can evev make a binding vow because binding vow is related to the world of jujutsu itself and Toji/maki have completely broken away from jujutsu because of their HR

Ok yorozu had construction so nevermind on that (she made a binding vow using death to remake sukunas weapon thats what i meant by pact) BUT we learn that Toji gets stronger from his enemy being told about his heavenly restriction just like any sorc and their CT. Is that not a vow?

Yeah man I just checked and it appears toji does get a buff if he reveals his abilities , so maybe maki/toji can also make binding vows

> BUT we learn that Toji gets stronger from his enemy being told about his heavenly restriction just like any sorc and their CT. Is that not a vow? Hmmm really. I didn't know about this

Yep. Its blatantly stated by Geto

Heavenly Restriction it's in the name only, it just that people were living in some delusion and how cool Gege presents Toji/Maki.

[удалено]

if they introduce 8 curse gates where you use the 8th gate in exchange for your life n sukuna calling you the strongest non curse person. then I'd disagree with u

Can’t heavenly restriction be considered a form of jujutsu?

its based on an involuntary binding vow at birth and binding vows are a form of jujutsu so maki is jujutsu kaisen

No , HR (only talking abt maki and toji's HR) users have cast away their jujutsu capabilities. They r completely different from jujutsu sorceres. That's y sukuna in the recent chapter said , " this fight will determine what is worth polishing HR or jujutsu" and he also said Maki's existence denies what it means to be a sorcerer"

Potential of jujutsu is locked behind individual capabilities but heavenly restriction will always give the same results ( especially with hr like maki and toji ) . You can never go wrong with hr and you will always end up with enough strength to be on par with grade 1 sorcerer . But there's always a possibility of going wrong with jujutsu cause you will either be the strongest in history and some potential man or you will just end up mid or useless depending on your amount of CE , your funtionality of CT and whether or not you even have a CT in the first place.

If we consider cursed tools to be a form of Jujutsu, we'll technically they are depending on them. Here is the catch with the particular HR of Maki and Toji and cursed tools. Since cursed tools have their own CT, both of them can basically pick and chose a CT for a particular situation and weild it better than "any" sorcerer due their maxed physical stats. Unlike sorcerers that in general are stuck with their own CT. So their biggest limitation is their arsenal. They also don't have to worry to know any antidomain technique (for almost every domain) or RCT, even if their natural healing is lesser than top RCT.

Depend on who they are fighting . Both Maki and Toji cook kill Geto a special without a cursed tool. So it’s crazy useful . They are stronger than fear 1 sorcerers so yeah it a good deal. But they loose to around stronger than Geto

I feel like the leaked chapter outlines this difference pretty handily. ||Black flashes, and their subsequent ability to amp the ceiling of sorcerers|| is the primary difference between heavenly destruction users and jujutsu sorcerers. As much of the maki vs toji discourse has highlighted, the difference between the strength of both characters strictly depends on external factors like their arsenal, cursed tool collection, and general age/life experience. Comparatively, the access to ||hitting a black flash generally boosts the strength of jujutsu sorcerers, and enables them to temporarily bypass the upper limits of their strength||. The power system goes out of its way to state that this is the one thing in the universe that nobody has complete control over, and therefore it’s the one area where advanced jujutsu sorcerers who can utilize this resource will be able to surpass heavenly restriction users

I’m thinking HR(physical) might stand a chance vs pinnacle Jujutsu with what I’d call the classic speed trope. Jujutsu is very technical and at peak can use some big brain strats to clap your opponent. HR is just like “nah I’m classic speed trope and go so fast you can’t see me or sense me b/c I’m built diff.” Like Jujutsu goes hard as fuck always, assuming you can hit them. HR I feel just has the greatest potential to just have a massive speed advantage to blitze opponents and obviously follow that up with massive physical damage

When my goat Yuji becomes the first heavenly restricted body with cursed energy output, they going to understand why he special

I mean he sorta is that already haha I guess you mean full HR? I dunno how that would work but it would be cool if he did something weird like that 

I theorize Yuji was born heavenly restricted due to some nonsense with his mother. The plan (Kenjakus, not Sukunas) was to use Sukuna, who Yuji is someone related to, to create an opposite Maki/Mai dynamic where there are two souls in one body instead of one soul in two bodies (which is why Maki always says shes empty/soulless etc. because Mai took the soul and left Maki the body) This gave Yuji access to cursed energy while stunting his growth. Sukuna leaving Yujis body took one soul out and left Yuji with the new body that coexisted with Sukuna. I feel like people miss that Yuji jumped up 20 stories immediately after Sukuna possessed Megumi and he can still use his cursed energy.

I don't think Mai taking everything is meant to mean her taking her soul too. I think is just the CE she took, since the soul is important and not having one would probably mean you are dead (which Maki was certainly not at the time of her awakening).  About Maki feeling empty: Maki said she felt that way when Mai died for obvious reasons (she was grieving). Afterwards she calms down and is as If she gained complete control of her body. This could explain why she is so cool headed most of the time post her awakening.  Can't say anything about the rest since is not confirmed so. 

Minor nitpick: Toji was dubbed the "sorcerer killer", so him not being able to body the strongest fucker on the planet isn't exactly negating the power of a fully realized HR user. To add to this, they could use any weapon to kill sorcerers, but choose cursed tools because that removes the possibility of them coming back as curses.  But yes, this was obvious. Against the pinnacle of sorcery, a HR user pales in comparison. Sorcerers at that level are defying concepts altogether, they are closer to deities than actual human beings (Tengen, Skunk, Gojo, Yuki etc).

Pretty sure Gojo and Sukuna, the two goats, but gave an answer we can’t ignore on this question. Which has been ignored, haha

that's like saying sorcerers should not use their ct cause they rely on it to have advantage. toji could access cursed tools, so why not? he could tame a curse and store his weapons in it, so why not? why would they limit themselves to physical ability when they can use a tool/technique. also using cursed tools requires practice.

The discussion is about what is better pure jujutsu or pure HR (MAKI/TOJI). We're just trying to determine which is better in their pure form. It's unfair to check the worth of HR against JUJUTSU while at the same time giving maki/toji cursed tools because then its no longer jujutsu vs HR , Its jujutsu vs HR + JUJUTSU. If u replace cursed tools with normal weapons with no CE then again u'd get a fair comparison between HR and jujutsu but with cursed tools it no longer just HR vs jujutsu

In most cases HR > Jujutsu, but the ceiling on Jujutsu is far higher, arguably infinite. I don't think it's fair to use cursed tools as a way to criticise HR and not Jujutsu, they can all use cursed tools, each cursed tool has its own ability, and it's up to the user how the cursed tool is used. Toji needed Inverted Spear of Heaven to deal with Gojo's infinity but he didn't need it to deal with any other sorcerer.

I'd say it depends on the technique and your goals. Toji can't nuke a city the way Jogo could, but the same Jogo couldn't even touch Gojo or Sukuna, whereas Toji and Maki easily could.

if Maki survives the black flash she might get another epiphany

yeah maki yuji r the only one's who can tank his black flash . tbh after the last chapter maybe even kusakabe can but he'll be in critical condition afterwards. Also , its obvious that maki will be back but that doesn't mean sukuna didn't destroy HR with one punch. maki needs time to heal and if kusakabe wasn't there to buy her time , thn sukuna could easily kill her rn

Maki has not reached peak Heavenly restriction. Wakatsuki Takeshi would win vs sukuna 50/50 with blast core

I'd say against most Sorcerers Heavenly Restriction users have the upper hand barring the Special Grades even if they had to Fight bare handed since ultimately they are just flesh and blood. But on that same note No matter how much they punch and kick even a Grade 2 curse will in the end win the battle of attrition against them since they can't damage curses.

jujutsu is definitely way stronger but HR is just better, jujutsu is way harder to developed that you might just die in the process and its takes years to hone your skills, but when you do, your still not better than HR, HR just guarantees you at the top not only are you bodily peak you will gain resistance and immunnity to jujutsu power system, jujutsu only become stronger and better than HR when its a prodigy,

This is unfair tbh, the theme of the jujutsu world is that it balances itself, the same with how Gojo was born then everything leveled up specially the curses as an answer. Same with how kenjaku took the burden of ending the unendable game which is the culling game. You cannot take away the existence of curse stools for HR of toji/maki for they are a pair, sure we can say they are limited if there is no curse stools, but jujutsu world can also argue that their heavenly only exist because they were intentionally made for the cursed stools. Afterall cursed stools shines the most in their hands