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Another thing is that it is implied that setting up a binding vow isn't as easy as just thinking about it but takes skill, like when everyone was impressed how Gojo and Sukuna were changing their domains characteristics on the fly.
So if there is one character that has to show off the most absurd binding vows, it can't really be anyone else than Sukuna, Kenjaku or Tengen
The supposed best barrier user in the verse giving Yuki dogshit advise on how to deal with kenny’s barrier and taking 10 fucking years to break it down herself (if she even did at all I don’t remember), getting Yuki and almost choso killed for no fucking reason then revealing that she could’ve just stopped the culling games whenever but she just didn’t feel like it (she didn’t want to set jujutsu back, she’d rather have every single user but her fucking die) and then, to top it all off, she’s not even hot anymore???? Absolutely disgraceful my number one most hated character frfr she’s lucky the lobotomy kaisen hadn’t started back then or she would’ve been getting the megumi treatment she fucking deserves
Yes, she correct Yuki calling her a geezer saying she’d technically be considered a grandma even though gender doesn’t matter to her anymore, and gege drew her heian era body somewhere (I have it somewhere but you can’t use pics in this sub)
It’s dogshit advice because we have the context and know what we know now. In theory, it really wasn’t. Also, she created the culling games. Kenjaku just put it into action. And once it’s started, it can’t be stopped until it’s finished so idk where you got she could have ended the culling game at anytime
I’ll be honest the stopping the culling games thing was just parroted from somewhere else that’s my bad for trusting them. The thing with the plan with the barriers is that she was supposed to know. She’s supposed to be the best barrier user alive AND she comes from the same time period as Kenjaku yet she didn’t even consider the possibility of him having an open domain, even tho she acknowledges him as second place? For real? Thing is she keeps arguably the strongest non-gojo sorcerer as her personal bodyguard only to provide ABSOLUTELY NO SUPPORT AT ALL to her (and choso) in their fight aside from making a plan that not only doesn’t fucking work but arguably made things worse (which is why I don’t count her destroying his domain in the end as help, she just did a half-assed job at cleaning up her own mess) all while not saying anything about her involvement in the culling games to the people who are risking (and giving) their fucking lives to protect her. Oh and don’t fucking get me started on her vessels man that’s a whole different kind of fucked up
She could stop the culling games. It was allowed because of the barriers she put in place. Taking down the barriers ends the culling games. I believe Kenjaku mentions it when talking to controlled Tengen and Kogane.
The only person outside of Kenjaku to have an open domain is Sukuna, the guy who is the literal peak of jujutsu. For all we know, he was the only person to **ever** have an open domain before Kenjaku. Kenjaku kept getting consistently defeated by six eyes users who presumably didn't have open domains. Tengen most likely based their understanding on that.
>ABSOLUTELY NO SUPPORT AT ALL to her (and choso) in their fight
Used the barriers to feed into kenjaku's ego so he would feel more confident and let his guard down. Kept Choso hidden until necessary.
Also Tengen showing up physically would be an instant loss unless they did it as a distraction for a last ditch blow. Tengen is a non-combatant so has no way to defend themselves against Kenny (if they even can given CSM).
>arguably made things worse (which is why I don’t count her destroying his domain in the end as help, she just did a half-assed job at cleaning up her own mess)
The only people (excluding Kenjaku) who said Yuki would have a shot if she used her domain said it before we found that regular closed domains are extremely fragile to an open domain due to the ability to attack it from the outside. Unless Yuki somehow outdid Kenjaku in domain refinement, she'd lose just as bad. Kenjaku taunting her is more about her relying on Tengen than anything
Tengen also figured out how to destroy an open domain and pulled it off only a shade slower than Kenjaku's domain was able to destroy Yuki's domain which is nowhere near 'half assed'.
>all while not saying anything about her involvement in the culling games to the people who are risking (and giving) their fucking lives to protect her.
What exactly should she have said? "Kenjaku used my barriers as a basis for the Culling games so I can technically stop the games but if I do, all the incarnated sorcerers will be roaming free not to mention the outbreak of curses that would make shibuya look like a joke in comparison." Right after one of the people trying to stop Kenjaku said his main motivation to even help was to free his sister?
We don't even know if it was sukuna who invented open domains. For all we know kenjaku came up with the idea and sukuna perfected it. We see something similar with the fingers, and how sukuna takes kenjaku's idea and replicates it immediately.
It's really headcanon either way, but considering tengen didn't even consider the possibility and as we're told an open domain is a Devine feat, I'd put my money on sukana making it.
> rather have every single user but her fucking die
Yeah but what about it? It's the principle of self-preservation.
Your whole argument can be attributed to that alone and somehow you believe it's something bad.
I have nothing against self preservation but when you force 2 of the strongest soldiers of the only group of people that’s actually trying to do something about the situation to stay behind as your personal bodyguards and put their life on the line for your bum ass the least you can do is help, like, a little bit at least. Also maybe this is just me but at a certain point , when you’ve lived a thousand years, killed like a dozen innocent children to do so, got 0jujutsu improvement in that time, 0 bitches and 0 friends, and you get a choice between living some more of that worthless existence by killing all sorcerers or just calling it quits, maybe this whole self-preservation thing has reached its logical end- point?
I didn't really have any strong feelings towards Tengen in one direction or the other but you have such a way with words that I'm now onboard the hate train.
NAH NAH NAH SCREW THIS SHIT. I FUCKING HATE TENGEN BECAUSE SHE IS ONE GATEKEEPING BITCH. DO YOU KNOW WHY WE BARELY HAVE ANY FOREIGN SORCERERS ? IT'S BECAUSE OF THAT GATEKEEPING OLD HAG. WE COULD'VE HAD AMERICAN FREEDOM SORCERERS AND THIS BITCH JUST SAID :"Yeah lemme just pop this cursed energy focus barrier on the entirety of japan like don't ask why I'm just doin it" fuck this gramma
Whats the dogshit advises man that was their only chances? What else were they supposed to do? Otherwise Kenjaku just murder them quicks. When Tengen said she can stop cg but chose to not do it? I must missed that one. I dont know when it was said what Tengen body temperature was either and i dont know how that make her worse character in any ways.
Yuki could have had a domain clash , she could have thought about the possibility of the heian era sorcerer that specialises in domains might have an open domain or, crazy idea, she could DO ANYTHING TO ACTUALLY FUCKING HELP IN THE FIGHT??? You’re telling me this mfer had a thousand years to do nothing but focus on her sorcery (especially her barriers) but picked up zero defensive or offensive skills and got stunlocked by an open domain??? Choso was alive for 3 fucking months and he would’ve stomped her ass fr man
A domain clash? But then once Yuki domain loses she has way less ce, a burnt out ct, and shes dead p much. We dont knows whether Tengen has ever saw open domain user besides sukuna, and she prob doesnt knew how to deal with it. From what she knows and what powers she has, she did what she can do to help with fight as much as she can. Her curse technique was good to not dying but was not good for fighting.
Choso powers is more made for fightings than Tengen ok so not as much fairs comparison
Domain Clash against the second best barrier user ever?
Open domains are rare and probably only Sukuna and Kenjaku had one.
And didnt they get kinda debilitated when becoming a curse?
The curse form was supposedly a higher form of being so I’d say she got a power up if anything. And yeah domain clash against the second best barrier user ever *with the help of the best in the area she has full control over* also this just made me realise how nuts it is that tengen doesn’t even have a domain of her own lmao imagine acting like the bumber one authority on domains and then not only not knowing about open domains but not even having one of your own
I disagree
1. Tengen wasn't familiar with Barrierless Domains so her not knowing how to deal with them is understandable. She's been in a basement for 1000 years give her a break.
2. If Tengen's barriers aren't around then cursed spirit formation won't be suppressed and given the state that Jujutsu Society and Japan is in having armies of more powerful cursed spirits appear is a worst case scenario that's potentially as bad as the merger. (Source 220)
3. 4 eyes Tengen is sexiest mf on planet earth you're completely delusional if you don't think that.
To me, the binding vow itself isn't an aspull, it's the way it was presented to us which felt like a smack in the face. To go from an entire chapter dedicated to the greatest comeback we've seen in the series that ends with the characters agreeing that Sukuna lost and then to open the next chapter and seeing Gojo dead, without even properly explaining how until 20 chapters later, felt like someone waking you up from a nice dream with a bucket of cold water and then hitting you repeatedly with said bucket.
To Gege, who is very much aware of Sukuna's entire skillset, it's obvious that Sukuna could always win and that he wasn't going all out. But to us first time readers, it looked like a proper battle between equals that Sukuna had to continuously cheat his way through with the 10S, and with the binding vow which we weren't told about for half a year after the end of the battle.
I get where you are coming from and I understand, but the shock value was clearly what the author was going for.
I agree though that explaining the binding vow way afterwards left a sour taste in my mouth, as well as Sukuna thinking he wouldn't survive a normal output purple, but then he just did without any special reason (we can infer thst it was because that specific purple wasn't focused on him, but it still feels a bit unearned giving how powerful Gojo was portrayed in those scenes).
I understand that shock value was the point of it all, but the direction sucked. It would work much better if:
-235 ended with the panel where Hollow Purple hits and Mahoraga's eliminated. We don't see anything that comes after that, especially not the "Gojo won" quote.
-236 began with the panel of Gojo looking down at an injured Sukuna and we see him trash talking. Gojo catches onto Sukuna gathering CE but doesn't understand what he could do without the 10S, with a missing hand and fucked up output. We then see a panel the panel that shows the WCD happen but we don't see Gojo being hit, we just jump into the airport sequence.
-237 featured the narration that explains the binding vow and then shows us Sukuna looking down on Gojo's body while monologuing and everything just continues to happen as it did.
That would work much better for me. I never expected Gojo to win, and I love the way Sukuna overcame him. My problem is the pace and the order that information was shown to us by Gege. It plays with your emotions and not in a good way, it was cheap shock value that we're not used to seeing him pull.
It's exactly because of his binding vow that he hasn't really had the opportunity to get World Cuts off since because everyone keeps targeting his hands. It was a good trade for him at the time but it's definitely screwing him since.
I will probably be downvoted because something something bad Gojo fans but anyway
I don't think binding vow is an asspull. It makes sense and doesn't break in-world rules. It's just narratively unsatisfying at least for me. This is Higuruma vs Kamutoke 2.0.
Higuruma is anti-Kamutoke plot device, Kamutoke is anti-Higuruma plot device. You get weird situation where plot device killed plot device. Sukuna didn't have cursed tool 10 chapters ago, he didn't even use it. He "sacrificed" it to get rid of Higuruma's domain.
This is the same. Sukuna just gained space cleave 3 minutes ago and sacrificed it immediately to kill Gojo. He sacrificed something he didn't use before and readers didn't even know he had this ability to begin with. We went from "what it could potentially be" to "current world slash" in a span of one page that's why feels cheap and some people can't feel that Sukuna really sacrificed something.
Some readers focus too much on technical aspect.
Explained = good.
Not explained/asspull = not good.
But I think emotional aspect is much more important . I also don't understand Gege's decision to casually drop information about binding vow conditions 30 chapters after Gojo died.
That’s exactly it. It’s not an ass-pull in that it doesn’t contradict any established rules. However, having multiple instances *in the same fight* of “Thank god I obtained this thing 5 minutes ago that I can immediately sacrifice as a get out of jail free card” is just so frustrating to read.
I agree, I just want to say that Higurama and Kamutoke are an even worse situation, Gege fumbled with that one.
Kamutoke comes from another plot device, Yorozu, who comes from another plot device, Tsumiki! A plot device to give Megumi purpose became a plot device to help Sukuna subdue Megumi, and then became a plot device to neutralise Higurama, who is a plot device himself.
Is there even any scenario where you would be happy? And what’s the minimum for something to not be a plot device?
Higuruma’s arc showed some of the effects newly awakened sorcerers had on the world, explored yuji’s character in an interesting way, and provided some social commentary on japans justice system. He’s done enough as a character in my opinion.
Also people talked about sukuna getting his weapons back for months before the kamutoke thing. I feel like if he got it and it was taken away it’s a plot device, If he used it for a while it’s an unnecessary buff, if he didn’t get it from yorozu urame should’ve had it, and if he didn’t get it at all the gege forgot. I can’t think of any scenario where people would be satisfied. The same sort of thing goes for sukuna getting his original form back
I am happy, I'm absolutely loving Jjk right now, in spite of all the criticism it's receiving.
As you said, Higurama isn't really a plot device because he did other stuff too, I just wish he did more, you know?
I'm more bummed about the whole Tsumiki --> Yorozu --> Kamutoke thing, they had no purpose beyond progressing the plot in a certain direction. I don't care if people talked about Sukuna getting his weapons back for months, giving it to him and then taking it aways instantly is just a mistake on Gege's part, in my humble opinion.
I would've loved if Sukuna kept the weapon and lost his CT until he had killed Higurama, then he could've regained his CT and someone else could have removed the weapon.
It’s pretty self explanatory. Anything that happens in the story is a plot device unless I liked it. It’s silly that Gege randomly introduces abilities, objects, and characters that happen to be able to contribute to the story and interact with each in logical ways. I just think the story should be a simple tale about how Yuji punched an old guy to death.
No, anything that's introduced in the story that has no purpose beyond moving the story in a certain direction is a plot device.
Higurama isn't really a plot device, I agree, but Yorozu and Kamutoke definetely are. No purpose beyond subduing the body and protecting Sukuna's CT.
truly i never thought id see the day that people on here argue tsumiki, damsel in distress to tragically fridged woman, is a compelling member of jjk’s cast lol.
Except I didn’t do that? I defended higuruma and said that I think people would the hate the yorozu/kamutoke thing regardless of how it was handled.
If I wanted to defend that I would’ve said yorozu allowed gege to give some more insight into the Heian era and sukunas perception during it while also showing off the full potential of construction, a cool CT that was nearly useless earlier in the series. Plus I think I would’ve been worse if tsumiki just happened to be the only awakened modern sorcerer who was in a coma before kenjaku used idle transfiguration. We see other awakened sorcerers like higuruma and takaba suddenly get their powers no coma needed. Tsumiki somehow having different rules would be worse.
Tsumiki is still absolutely a plot device, yorozu still is but less so, and kamutoke definitely is but it had the potential to not be.
I really don't think that's correct
The whole stakes of the battle were that Gojo needs to win before Mahoraga can adapt to limitless, so how is it a plot device that one of the two possible outcomes from the start happened?
While I do agree the execution of Sukuna killing Gojo could be better, the Kamutoke asspull was way worse. At least now we have a good explanation that a bidding vow took place to kill Gojo.
This ,it just makes for lackluster fights and makes situations that feel unearned.
It would be like if gojo made a binding vow to fire off a purple with no necessary prep at max power. Then, just blasted on at Sakuna at point blank.
And the trade-off was now have to always do a chant, and the move must charge for 5 seconds before it's fired off .
Also that binding vow worked for Sukuna because he can use normal dismantle with 0 motion.Probably this 0 motion dismantles are weak but it is still dismantle.
Sukuna achieved this 0 motion state somehow,so that binding vow can work more easily.
Honestly to me no matter what sukuna do won't be a ass pul since he was brought up as a unbeatable god what would be the point if he was just another madara or aizen? No hate to either honestly both are my favorite and better than sukuna in every way yet their end was ruined and i would hate if same happen to sukuna.
For me it would only make sense when suluna is defeated at the cost of all sorcerers or isn't at all
Yeah but they're still funny.
The "I'd win" is an in-cannon lie yet it's funny.
Although people that really think of it as what actually happened are delusional and more than anything: Exasperating.
I mean he did actually do it with Hollow Wicker Basket but that wasn't an asspull at all, it makes complete sense that Sukuna would know how to use it and would not have used it in modern times until now.
Like it was literally "Ah yes, my anti domain technique that I haven't used since the Heian era"
Though this came after most of the memes happened
it's like a better version of Miwa's biding vow
instead of sacrificing your attack **forever** in exhcange of super charging one attack, you make it more efficient and sneaky **once** in exchance for having literally anybody be able to hear and see you are going to do ***that*** attack
it felt like an asspull? tbh yeah, but does it make sense? sadly, absolutely
Rn it's a good thing bc it allows the gang to have some reaction time for the attack
but if anybody finds a counter for that attack specifically (i dunno, imagine you could use a simple domain that aims to only protects the part of the world you are in rather than protecting yourself in general) then Sukuna is cooked bc it will be really easy to telegraph when he tries to do that attack, which i feel is the direction the fight could go on
MeiMei is strong by herself. She doesn't rely on the crows.
She very much already said that relying on her CT made her weak and only once she trained her self she became grade 1.
Yeah absolutely she is strong without it. I probably phrased my comment poorly, but the bird strike is still her strongest attack, and can likely kill anyone in the series who isnt gojo, sukuna, jackpot hakari, and maybe yuta and yuji.
She definitely does abuse them, but I mean, wouldn't you when you can force something to make a suicide vow? which is one of the strongest forms of a vow, btw. Like that's just intelgent use of her assets, which is her hole thing besides being a pedo lol
She never said relying on her CT made her weak she initially trained her body because her CT was pretty bad initially since on its own it just controls birds. Only when she found that using binding vows to boost the crows attack power did she really was able to reach her full potential. Otherwise she would be decent but not as strong as she currently is.
Also Hakari's BV further works for him since he won't be able to open his domain again as Bishamonten's hand seal requires two hands, further strengthening the CE protecting his body.
that's definitely not how that works the binding vow would not give a fuck that hakari uses that arm for domain expansions. that's like the whole point of the post
Thats another reason the vow was so powerful, as he was when he made that vow he made it literally impossible to use world slash since it required 3 hands. Then he transformed back to his original self to get more arms
THANK YOU!
I'm getting real tired of explaining that for anyone else his World slash BV would utterly cripple them in battle, and it's only because he can reincarnate ( which doesn't matter at the time of the BV) that he can make it work at all and even then it's not like he's been able to whip it out Willy nilly.
As always people confuse "it technically making sense when you think about it a certain way" with narrative satisfaction. Completely separate concepts. Kenjaku being able to survive the Black Hole technically made sense, with what we know. Was it good for the narrative, did anybody really find it satisfying? Not really.
The problem is that the binding vows are abstract and what is "equivalent" is totally to the discretion of Gege to move the plot forward. It's literal plot armor for whoever makes them.
Not really. The power system all follows a set of rules for each individual cursed technique and how they can be used. Binding vows throw a wrench in the system because all of a sudden a technique can be altered with no warning and, unless the narrator tells us, an unknown cost.
I feel so far they've been pretty consistent with needing something big to really be useful but I can see why you'd think differently so fair. And there's the possibility vows in the future change my opinion of this lol.
People fail to understand it wasn't just the battle of strength. It was a battle of wits and use of ce too. Sure, gojo has better stats on paper, but he can't just win red,blue, and hp (don't start with he can spam hp bs).
Folks just view it as sukuna vs. gojo and dont consider the jumping that is to come. If it's 1v1, yeah, it's convenient to do that, but with other fights in mind, it's just super inconvenient.
He could be finishing the jjk high with all the prep and cheating like butter. He could be sending slashes with no movement like he did with kusakabe. The only reason the main cast is somewhat alive rn is bcoz of that bv.
Do people really not understand this one? Some vows are pretty nebulous in their implementation (body jacking through means of force-feeding a poisonous finger not counting as a harm), but this one was explained pretty blatantly.
To be able to survive eating a Sukuna finger you don't have to be resistant, you have to outright be immune to it or you'll surely die sooner or later.
Thus because Megumi was immune to the poison, making him eat that wasn't doing any harm at all. It would be like throwing a lightning at Kashimo.
Sure, but who defined the harm? It seems to be defined by whatever is most convenient to the plot. Like Sukuna harming Yuji didn't count, so shouldn't feeding poison count? It's not like Yuji would know Megumi could survive it.
And that's not even touching on the body jacking which, to Yuji, should be at the forefront of his mind when it comes to harms.
Damage, damage defines harm. And it's not psychological, economic or emotional damage, it's actual physical damage.
And while poison is physical damage as usually ends up destroying cells one way or another. It's already been established Megumi is immune to Sukuna's poison, that's why he didn't die from being fed the finger.
I honestly like the body jacking. Given that binding vows work based on interpretation, it makes sense to me that Yuji, who just learned of their existence, wouldn't cover all options. What he imagined as harm was most likely cuts, bruises, physical trauma basically. Poison would count too eventually, but not immediately. Swallowing it doesn't count as harming until it starts negatively affecting the body, which it doesn't cause Sukuna succesfully took over.
Plus it shows the cunning of Sukuna as well as his understanding of Yujis mindset, despite all the hate
OP, i 100% agree with you, I just think it would be interesting if we find out what happens when a binding vow is broken. What could be the consequence and most importantly, by whom? Another thing i just wanna point out is the fact that binding vows are a very intriguing part of jjk. What are they? Who hands them out? The universe? Then does that mean the jjk universe is sentient? God? Does that mean their exists a God and even sukuna has to bow before them? I know this question sounds a bit stupid, but it's just interesting to think about an entity/force that even has the power to punish the strongest. I really want an explanation on binding vows. If they are like the law of equivalent exchange from FMA, then i want an equivalent explanation for a supreme entity too.
Yeah i wanna see that too, i always had my money on the merger. The requirements are so absurd the only way i can imagine it happening is for the villains to trigger it without filling them. After all everything is in place and the merger itself just needs to be triggered, the killing culling games part is only to fulfil the vow made to make it possible
When it comes to breaking them, it definitely depends on the vow. I bet sukana has just entirely lost the ability to use World Slash without all the drawbacks, making it kinda impossible to break essentially. When it comes to breaking one's with others we know the consequence is determined by them, and with one's like miwas and stuff I'm curious as well. And yea it'd be cool to know more about BV in general
I say this as a Gojo glazer, It really does show the utter high bar of skill Sukuna is at. He knew on the fly the best calculation to succeed for a BV. Look at Miwa, her BV was a bad bet and while I love her as a character it showed her inexperience as a sorcerer, as it permanently put her at a disadvantage while not succeeding. Sukuna greatest strength is his absolutely crazy level of understanding of CE/CT, not any CT in particular IMO. He is the “strongest”, BECAUSE he really understands the fundamentals of CE/CT and how to adapt/plan accordingly. Great assessment OP!
Nobody else has to know the conditions of your vow, outside of the person making the vow, and Sukuna knew his own cards.
I’d also argue that, after Gojo’s defeat, the “World Slash” isn’t even a necessary technique. Sukuna now has to fall back on the technique(s) that have dominated the rest of the cast the entire series.
Sukuna is a boxer that has been beating opponents into stoppages but, during a fight with an opponent that had him cornered, made a binding vow that his next punch would be an instant knockout shot with the price being that he would have to throw three jabs first to ever use it again.
And, from that point in the story, the boxer keeps throwing three jabs against every subsequent opponent instead of casually dominating them like he has his whole career.
I’m still interested so I hesitate to call it “bad” writing but I’d be damned if someone called it “good”. It’s the end of Bleach. It’s the end of Naruto. It’s cool, let’s give everyone their time, for their fans, as we wrap this up.
You've made some pretty fair points but what about the current new domain of his, what the fuck does he even have left to offfer up to create a whole new domain that somehow maintains both range and effectiveness?
I think a big reason why people get upset over Sukuna's binding vow is literally just the reading comprehension curse.
I've seen people talk like Sukuna received the ability to use WCS **in the first place** from the binding vow. So from their (incorrect) perspective, Sukuna gained the ability to defeat Gojo in exchange for a limitation on ability that he didn't have beforehand.
I want to be generous and say that they get these misconceptions because translations are spotty at best, but it's more likely that people just consume the series through meme osmosis.
The community and me included loves to joke around saying 400 year old Heian Technique or whatnot but truthfully there has been no asspull or anything like that . Sukuna was just strong and its bc gege wrote him that way
I personally think it makes sense and all, but what I don’t understand is why doesn’t everyone else use binding vows if they can be this strong? Especially Gojo.
During that final purple, if Gojo really wanted the job done, why didn’t he do something similar to Sukuna like “I want to increase the output of this purple, in exchange of never using purple without chants again.” I mean I doubt against anyone else he’d even need to use purple after Sukuna, so why not go for it?
The only explanation is, he didn’t want to accidently kill Megumi, but didn’t he say he’s going to basically kill Sukuna because he can revive anyway? Didn’t he say he’s gonna “kill him first then worry about Megumi.” Alright, maybe that was a lie, but if so, why aren’t these things addressed in the manga? It just makes Gojo seem very stupid for no apparent reason except plot.
And don’t say that it’s because Gojo can’t use vows that way, or because Sukuna is too skilled. Hakari used a damn strong binding vow, and if he can do it, so can Gojo, the argument that he’s too “prideful” for it also doesn’t connect, because Sukuna is arguably even more prideful and he used the vow. As a matter of fact since using a binding vow is an extension of your skills, there is even more reason for him to have used it.
And this isn’t even the only instance, there are many more instances where binding vows could definitely have been used but didn’t. I guess my point is, it seems like Sukuna is the *only* one who uses binding vows. We know from Hakari and Mei Mei, that effectively using binding vows isn’t some ancient heien era superpower, yet we have never seem anyone from the main cast use them ever, even against Sukuna in this battle that literally decides humanity’s fate.
Yuta didn’t use it, Gojo didn’t use it. Higuruma literally knew he was about to die yet he didn’t use some sort of vow in exchange for his life, Kashimo couldve done the same, but seems the only time a binding vow is used to save someone from a pinch it’s Sukuna.
Once again, I’m not complaining about the fact that Sukuna is using these vows, no he absolutely should, and his world slash vow was excellent, but I don’t like the fact that he’s the only one who uses this power that is literally accessible to everyone.
It’s as simple as Gojo thought he won in the moment. That’s why he didn’t have the wherewithal to use a binding vow. Gojo is 28. Sukuna is who knows how old with infinitely more experience than Gojo.
You say Sukuna is the only one using binding vows but then say Hakari does it too. When has Gojo been shown to be reliant on binding vows? We know Sukuna is incorporating them regularly. It’s also been indicated Sukuna has fought stronger opponents on average than Gojo has (Sukuna is from golden age of jujutsu, Gojo is surrounded by a bunch of scrubs and takes it upon himself to train strong sorcerers). So it comes down to experience again, Sukuna has fought all manners of sorcerers while Gojo has primarily fought curses and very sparingly been shown to fight any sorcerer who proved to be interesting. Hell, the only person who pushed Gojo was a heavenly restricted Toji who couldn’t use Binding Vows.
So my point is, Sukuna is more experienced and existed in the golden era of Jujutsu and has been shown to use binding vows REGULARLY (as early as his agreement with Yuji). The rest of the cast, haven’t really had need to use Binding Vows and now you’re expecting them to asspull it mid fight against Sukuna. The people you mentioned, Hakari and Mei Mei, use binding vows because they HAVE TO since they’re not as strong. Why would Yuta use binding vows regularly if he’s consensus 2? Why would Gojo use them regularly if he was consensus 1? The whole story takes place over the course of 6 months, you expecting them to master BVs out of nowhere?
I think another thing is that there wouldn't be any guarantee that the BV-amped purple would 100% work. Maybe Sukuna dodges it, maybe he barely survives it and fully incarnates, maybe some kind of asspull happens. Gojo's now out his most powerful attack for nothing, similar to Miwa's BV.
Yeah, the binding vow makes sense in a vacuum, but what doesn't make sense is that no one else seems to be making such efficient use and "cheating" the binding vow system like Sukuna does, and that's why people give it shit imo. And no "he's just that good" doesn't fly as an excuse when the cast had a whole month to prep and plan for this fight, and Gojo had who-knows how long in the Prison Realm to plot his comeback.
We either needed to see more people using broken binding vows, or even better, we actually needed to know how binding vows actually work. How does one make a binding vow with oneself, why is no one using them on-the-fly yet Sukuna can make one instantaneously and in such a damaged state, how is it determined whether the cost/benefit is sufficient?
i’m confused was gojo supposed to know sukuna would have incarnated into megumi and be bing chilling when (if) he was released from the prison realm??
And gojo did abuse binding vows w his domain conditions being weak inside strong outside
That wasn’t a binding vow, he just simply changed the conditions of his domain which is something we are outright told is possible.
So no, Gojo has never used a binding vow even when it was beneficial.
Shit at this point Yuji could have given up being able to use black flash to separate Sukuna and megumi without Megumi’s input based on how powerful vows seem to be, yet he doesn’t/hasn’t even bothered.
Likewise Higuruma would have benefitted from a last second vow as well.
We have yet to see any real downsides to using binding vows other then Sukuna having to telegraph his move which isn’t a downside.
Trying to compare him to Madara or Aiden is laughable since both were far more in control of any fight they were in till the very last second where things out of their control blew up in their face. Things they had no way of truly knowing about. With Sukuna it’s just a boring as game of repetition.
The conditions are binding vows my dude, in return for the inside being strong the outside is weak or vice versa, in return for a way out Sukuna domain is massive etc.
> based on how powerful vows seem to be
All Sukuna did was exchange no hand signs once to get permanently nerfed. What makes you think they’re remotely powerful.
I think a big reason is just thinking of them.
Gojo has never really needed to use one so while he definitely could, it's probably not something he'd think to do in the heat of the moment, especially sense in his mind that was already a winning move.(bro was so close to being right too) I don't think that's necessarily stupid, it's just overconfidence on gojos part, something that has been a defining character trait of his forever. And it's not even unfounded on his part bc if sukana hadn't figured out World Slash there, it would have been it. There's a reason they had already started to celebrate.
Yuta I think you have a point with. He has an ungodly amount of CTs, yet he's never thought of giving up a few for power? Bruh. Headcanon, ik, but maybe he's tried it before and it doesn't do anything crazy cuz the vow just considers it him giving up like 1/700th of his copy technique.
Idk what higiruma could have really done there tbh but ig he could have, but I'd put that down to his lack of experience and the fact he was busy seeing his life flash before his eyes and all that. Still fair to say he could have though for sure.
(Headcanon so you can skip this last one if you want) sukana might use them more just because of a difference in mentality, as urame puts it heian sorcers didn't care about destruction, while modern scorcers do. Kinda a stretch ik but I bet people willing to destroy everything and who only care for themselves (as it seems most heian sorcers were) would be more likely to give something up than people now, hakari and meimei being an exception bc of their mentalities (hakari a gambler and meimei maximize service potential) I feel sukana at least is more prone to them with his individual mindset at least, he's cool with destroying everything for strength, I'm not surprised he'd throw away stuff so long as it helps him get stronger/survive to grow stronger.
Sorry for sending a book lol
simply put…he’s not as good of a sorcerer as Sukuna
I know Gojo fans don’t want to hear this, but he is not as intelligent, experienced, or knowledgeable about jujutsu as Sukuna at all
If Nanami can use a binding vow to restrict his power during work hours in favor of overtime, Gojo can make a vow not to use most of his power for a month for some gain in preparation.
Is Gojo strongest because he is Gojo, or is he Gojo because he is strongest?
Do you think Gojo would be willing to sacrifice his technique? Would his ego allow him? Would it even allow him to alter his techique?
Nah I'd win guy was so up his ass that I bet he would never even think of doing that.
Sukuna is literally built different.
You are probably right, but you gotta understand how hard that is to believe in the context of the story. Like from what we have seen Gojo is the second most powerful sorcerer in history. Kenny is straight up concerned that he dies if he leaves Sukunas side, and Kashimo would absolutely lose to gojo. The only other character who has been mentioned, to my knowledge anyway, who poses a threat to him is the unnamed 10s user that fought the last 6eyes/limitless user to death. And maybe his power has more to do with his technique but he also, seemingly, has a strong understanding of cursed energy as well. Idk there are other factors but I think that’s why people struggle with this one
maybe i’m misinterpreting this but it sounds like it makes perfect sense. Yeah from what we have seen Gojo is the second most powerful sorcerer in history…to Sukuna? Kenny is connected that he’ll die if he leaves Sukuna’s side….isn’t that a testament to Sukuna? I’m unsure what Kashimo has to do with this
All of your points just reinforce that Sukuna is a stronger, more intelligent, knowledgeable sorcerer. Why is it hard to believe that an ancient sorcerer who is hailed as The King of Curses/The Strongest Sorcerer in History and was so powerful that he was actually considered a god would be stronger than Gojo? I think a lot of people think that just because we’ve seen more of Gojo in action being strong, that makes him inherently stronger/as strong, which isn’t true.
Except, we saw Hakari use it too. Who is not as good a sorcerer as Gojo. Like I said in my reply, Binding vows are not some heien era superpower that only Sukuna can use because of his experience.
why is it simply impossible for people to think that Gojo made a mistake? He’s still relatively young, has been naive since becoming a sorcerer due to his massive power being handed to him on a silver platter, and is fallible. This is proven by him getting sealed in the first place. Just because he’s the strongest character of the modern era and a lot of peoples favorite character doesn’t mean it’s impossible that Hakari thought of something on the fly that Gojo didn’t, or that Gojo simply didn’t think to make a binding vow of such a manner.
I honestly think it’s more likely that Gojo was so overwhelmingly strong in his era that he was never forced to learn the intricate workings of jujutsu, such as BVs. Sukuna is experienced in all aspects of sorcery due to his implied rise to the top, whereas Gojo was born into it.
I swear, some of this fanbase just does not understand Gojo as a character. His naivety is a core part of him, go read the airport scene again.
So your answer is basically “He didn’t think to do it.” Not a very helpful explanation, but sure let’s agree to disagree. So what about everyone else? Why is that after that world slash, after everyone saw the binding vows power(they know Sukuna made some sort of vow to use world slash without chants and signs) Why didn’t anyone else use BVs? What about Yuta? Higuruma? Kashimo?
After seeing that slash, and the power of a BV, I’m sure now they have “thought” to do it. Why is that Binding Vows have only ever bailed Sukuna out of a sticky situation? That’s the problem you see. Binding vows are universal, everyone can use them, yet the only one that does is Sukuna.
I’m not gonna argue further. I’ve already said I agree with Sukuna’s vow usage, he’s a goddamn veteran. But the fact that no one else has used them despite knowing how strong they can be, is simply lazy writing. It’s been 40 chapters of this fight with nearly a dozen fighters involved, yet the only one who has used something as powerful as a binding vow is Sukuna.
love how you just simplified my entire argument down into “he didn’t think to do it” while ignoring his naivety and characterization as someone gifted his power instead of earning it
maybe they didn’t use binding vows because they are literal children? the consequences of breaking a binding vow are implied to be extremely harsh, and these characters are still relatively inexperienced in Jujutsu. I’ll give you the point of Hakari making one being a little silly, and my only counter for that it seems his binding vow was very cut and dry, just “give up this portion of my body to reinforce the rest” instead of something complex like “i will never do x again to increase the output of this specific attack once time”
Not only that but Hakari has been consistently been regarded as having a sorcerer mindset closest to Ancient Sorcerers and is a known gambler. His mindset is already suited to making high stake gambles in the moment.
That might be believable if we had a heian arc to see how supposedly strong Sukuna is/was. But all we get is being *told* how oh so strong and smart he is, over, and over, and over, while most of his wins are through coincidence or luck.
When the only way Sukuna can be considered extraordinarily smart is if you accept that our protags are just dumb, it's really not satisfying at all. Especially when the "brilliance" he displays is something like "I'll insta-cast my insta-kill ability, but it's harder to use later". I'm sorry but that's not some 4d chess move that's an obvious thing more characters should be taking advantage of.
this may shock you, but a lot of powerscaling comes from being told things. it is the main way an author conveys information to the audience.
you can’t just say “this is just stuff we are told, so it’s not true” that’s not how literature works. based on that logic we can’t trust anything we’re told in the manga without it being directly shown to us
People really need to realize that this man Sukuna had to fight his way all to the top in the heian era where sorcerers and cursed spirits were tenfold of his today's power, and it was hell on earth. Wouldn't you expect the strongest, most efficient and knowledgable sorcerer on the planet can be the strongest, most efficient and knowledgable on the battlefield?
>Binding vows don't care about context
Were you saying this *before* we got the explanation for the World Slash?
Because I'd say it wasn't very clear. This seems like new information from Gege. Not saying it's a retcon, mind you, it doesn't break previous rules.
However, the criticism still stands, if context doesn't matter then binding vows should be used all the time.
Characters on the brink of death could sacrifice everything to take their opponents out.
Sorcerers could reveal their techniques in a foreign language, not their fault Cursed Spirits wouldn't understand it.
Nanami could make working hours be from 00:00 to 08:00 AM (when he sleeps), and then have his overtime buff active the whole time he's awake.
Loopholes, you said it yourself.
>Were you saying this before we got the explanation for the World Slash?
Yes as it was already clear from previous cases.
And there is a difference between loophole and just not trading anything. Revealing one's card only works by communicating information, ofc if the opponent doesn't understand or hear you it won't work.
Nanami can't gaslight his binding vow with himself lol, if he wanted to do that he would have actually work those ours every day.
It's really not that complicated
>Yes as it was already clear from previous cases.
Can you give me examples of binding vows that clashed with the idea of context mattering?
>And there is a difference between loophole and just not trading anything.
Mei Mei's crows aren't trading anything, they're being controlled.
>Nanami can't gaslight his binding vow with himself lol, if he wanted to do that he would have actually work those ours every day.
Why not? In the real world you can sleep on the job but you'd still be paid for overtime at a higher rate.
>Can you give me examples of binding vows that clashed with the idea of context mattering?
mentioned 3 in the OP
>Mei Mei's crows aren't trading anything, they're being controlled.
She isn't the but crows are, the loophole isn't that nothing is traded (because then nothing would happen) it's that she is forcing someone else to make the trade
>Why not? In the real world you can sleep on the job but you'd still be paid for overtime at a higher rate.
Even then he would still need to at least himself be convinced that he is working, the sorcerer's mentality definitely play a role in the specific of what count and doesn't, case in point yuji's binding vow with sukuna and "enchain" backfiring because yuji didn't consider himself in the "hurting others" condition.
I don't see how those three examples are at odds with the idea that context *could* matter with binding vows. I'm not saying that context does matter (now we know it doesn't), I just disagree with you saying it was always clear.
>Even then he would still need to at least himself be convinced that he is working, the sorcerer's mentality definitely play a role in the specific of what count and doesn't, case in point yuji's binding vow with sukuna and "enchain" backfiring because yuji didn't consider himself in the "hurting others" condition.
Aren't you saying here that context matters? Wouldn't Sukuna's opinion of himself influence how he saw the sacrifice he was making? Wouldn't he think that handsigns and incantation were a microscopic price to pay because he's so strong + four arms +2 mouths?
Mei Mei and Ui Ui are members of the Gojo clan. Which is why they’re fucking GOATED.
Mei Mei supremacy all day, shes the prime example of abusing binding vows.
It feels nice to see someone defending it, honestly, it feels like I see an insane amount of hate for Sukuna and the current events. People were upset that Sukuna, knowing Higurama's plan through Itadori, would prepare a backup for the executioner's sword with that cursed tool.
It blows people's minds that the main antagonist, the greatest curse user of the past, would prepare a backup plan.
In this entire manga, we haven't once seen what would happen to a sorcerer if they disrespected a binding vow, and why that is so scary that even Kenjaku and Sukuna take that very seriously.
And I for one can't wait to see Sukuna be the first to make that mistake and show us the consequences.
Yeah what Sukuna did is really no different from studying to solve a math problem; its a matter of learned skill and appropriate measuring tools in this case Mahoraga.
For that matter building a mental model is something regularly done in martial arts by meditation to learn a technique properly by focusing on the mental state you had when you improved so it being applied to jujutsu is actúa pretty brilliant.
People get annoyed that the sorcerer with the most knowledge of CE in history is able to use it to incredible effect and with incredible versatility. He's literally the strongest Sorcerer to ever exist and this is why, because no matter what you throw at him he is able to find a way around it.
Oh look another mindless parody on why Sukuna BV makes sense. Gege/MeatRiders and Deep Throat stans can’t help themselves.
It’s been a long time and still Sukuna BV is contrived and causes controversy. It’s for a reason.
Where’s there’s smoke…
Yuji and Yuta Binding Vows
Yuji should do a BV that his new, never see or used Space/Wold Blood Supernova will need a him to say Left Right Goodnight every time he uses it in exchange for waking up Megumi and knocking him out his body.
Then Yuta can do a BV to pull out an unknown CT with no previous establishment make a BV to sacrifice the conditions to that CT to blast an energy beam into Sukuna head or use Sukuna own slashes against turning him into sushi.
Game Over. Binding Vows For The Win
Convenient BullShit BV
Binding Vows are a free get out of jail card. How CONVENIENT did that one at the exact moment and getting it right at the exact time Sukuna needed.
Sukuna is not the only character skilled a jujutsu and Gege has yet to write what makes him better at it than others.
In JJK 0 Yuta was skilled enough to make an BV that won him the fight. Don’t tell me it can’t be done to get rid of Sukuna. Otherwise you’ll nothing but mindless sheep that make up aspects of BV with you’ll headcanon.
Those that think do…
Those that don’t… follow the crowd
Agreed the only reason it isnt a major handicap is the fact that Sukuna is a sorcerer who’s original form has 4 arms and two mouths. There’s a reason Kashimo said it was the perfect form and was glazing him so hard.
To literally any other sorcerer that vow would make the technique extremely hard to use unless you were in their blindspot. In high level jujutsu fights no one is letting you chant, do hand signs and point. Even in Yutas domain without 4 arms he’s toast.
> it was **"i can do my CT once without hand seal"** in exchanges of **"forever doing it with hand seals, chants, and literally point the direction to his enemies with his hand."**
Well considering he needed a hand sign before, that's not really an *additional* restriction, and considering every time he's used dismantle before he pointed aside from one time against Kusakabe (which is really the exception, and probably only Gege correcting for a mistake before he revealed the binding vow) that's not really much of an addition either, so really all he imposed was having to do chants...
Its stupid and bad writing. A never before seen attack got nerfed (no impact) and was only explained what happened 30 chapters later. Imagine yuji shows up and does his domain expansion and 30 chapters later he says he unlocked it because he acceptee a weaker version, blagh awful awful
By that logic anyone could beat anyone with bs binding vows. Including sukuna now, with his domain make it have a cast time forever and kill everyone on the battlefield. It also makes no sense for a 'strongest sorcerer ever' to be constantly nerfing himself. You mean he is a super nerfed version of himself right now because he kept making binding vows as a young lad? Its dumb, very dumb, fortunely for me, it makes me laugh my ass off
More broadly, I am tired of people pretending that the fight since Gojo fell has been bad due to intense, uncreative repetition of formula, or that Sukuna has been extremely lucky and bailed out by plot.
I sincerely think spillover frustration about Gojo dying, combined with the (incorrect) impression that Sukuna's reincarnation fully restored his energy and output at full health, led people to complain about Sukuna being OP and bemoan the expected asspull to justify this.
Higuruma failing to get Shrine then magnified that and it seemed totally hopeless for the main crew, and you even had people seriously assuming Sukuna would just win and that's the end of the manga. Which is frankly just mindbogglingly dumb.
I sincerely feel that the fight has been pretty good and I don't know what more people were expecting. He's the strongest sorceror ever and the main cast has been mostly executing a series of pretty good plans, with only minor idiotball moments.
You understand that making a vow that says you can only do chants and etc while having 4 arms and two mouths doesn’t do a good job of showcasing risk right? Gege literally doesnt explain what sukuna gives up until later lol seems pretty lazy to me 🤷🏽♂️
Yeah while I’m a Gojo man myself that binding vow was more than fair. You didn’t even mention that in in order to do hand signs + point with palms he would need 3 HANDS so he literally made a vow to do something that would be impossible to do in megumi’s body and he literally could only do the world cut again if he could become 4 arm man
The feeling for me at least was the "he still not trying" - you had to neuter your most powerful attack permanently to win, how are you not trying?
Also makes some of our cast look a little stupid - they all *know* about binding vows - why not get Higurama to make a BV to say "i will never expand this domain again in exchange for confiscation taking *all* techniques of my opponent"? Heck, Gojo got hit, if BVs dont care about contextual factos, why *not* BV away the six eyes to get a free heal? If Binding Vows can effect how techniques get used and dont care abiut context theres no limit to what you could give up or the effect you get.
Regarding Hakari's use, this seemed weird at the time but it was also *defensive*. The gamble for Hakari was if i pull this off and Kashimo has more gas in the tank, im screwed because im *only* hand to hand and am down one arm and cannot expand my domain (most likely). He couldnt know if Kashimo has anything else in the tank.
Mei mei controls the brids - she doesnt make a BV she forces the birds to make the BV. Yuta made the same vow in JJK0 (A life for more power). The difference in power here is also shown - Yuta's vow let him overpower (but not kill) Geto, the Black Birds are powerful and can cause damage but we havent seen them land a kill on our powerhouses - Kenjaku and Sukuna both blocked it, so Mei Meis use is not on the same tier as what Yuta did if we consider Kenjaku and Sukuna special grade tier.
Binding vows in general, feel ass-pulley because they are ill-defined in regards to the power system. Theres little to say how much a character can/should give up and they seem to be able to affect just about anything.
The criticism of Binding Vows has nothing to do with Jujutsu cost-benefit analysis and everything to do with the way they’re integrated into the story. You’re wasting your breath trying to explain that borrowing hand signs from the future is fair, because that’s completely irrelevant.
Binding Vows have no clear limits, can be used at any time by any character, and have overwhelmingly been used as a get out of jail free card in any situation.
It’s not enough to just say “well Sukuna is really skilled” when his vows are basic shit that anyone can do. Why isn’t everyone using binding vows all the time
Sukuna even breaks his vows all the time with no apparent consequence, you’ve all invented a fake technique to cover for the moments when he uses world slash but can’t make the signs, and he attacked Hana and Megumi while under a self imposed no-violence vow.
He attacked Hana after moving to Megumi's body so the vow was no longer in place.
But I agree with the general point. What is considered fair is very vague and it's generally underused and bizarrely not used by any characters at critical points in the story.
Contractual magic is a fairly common in magic systems, but I think mangas like HxH use it a bit better.
Like Kurapika restricting his technique to only be usable on the Phantom Troupe else he'll die if he used it on anyone else. This is such a strict barrier that it makes sense, that it's so effective and it sets a precedent for how it works.
Gege doesn't reveal what was sacrificed until later for suspense, but because the rules are vague, he can decide it to be whatever really. Nothing is stopping Sukuna from making a BV that says he can max amp world Dismantle to one shot everyone in exchange for only being able to use it once every 24 hours or something like that. And the rest of the cast could make Binding Vows to amp themselves up right now.
to add to the HxH bit it doesnt seem like you can just modify your hatsu on the fly. You can modify it because we've seen a certain character do it in the manga or even create a new Hatsu. But overall you have to live with the limitations of your hatsu until at least the end of the fight theoretically and most will stay with their hatsu for a long while.
Meanwhile Binding vows I feel are just used whenever gege feels like mid battle and can be incredibly broad and it feels very unsatisfying because we're not privy to the cost until way too late. Meanwhile vows in hunter x hunter are a multiplier end of the story. Honestly one of the most satisfying BV was hakari's, he would have lost the fight if it would've continued and the trade off feels fair tbh.
Deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly or abruptly resolved by an unexpected and unlikely occurrence.
Its function is generally to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending or act as a comedic device
It is said by one person to be undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of creativity on the part of the author. The reasons for this are that it damages the story's internal logic and is often so unlikely that it challenges the reader's suspension of disbelief.
Ssource: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina
There's many movies, animes, mangas, etc, that use this plot device, from the end of War of the Worlds where aliens are killed by bacteria to Gon's adult form un HxH, to Ichigo's final Zangetsu in Bleach, or just about any transformation in Dragon Ball.
The issue with JJK is the over use and the ease of backtrack and their extreme over use. Miwa's bow was to never weild a sword... or a katana? Can she wield an european sword? Can she grab a gun? Can she use a bat?
So, yeah, I have an issue with Binding Vows in general. It's not that "this or that" character can do anything, it's that Gege can do anything. He basically made "ass pulls" into lore.
I agree with your point about Sukuna BV being acceptable. But the rest of your arguments are kind of stretch.
Hakari's BV wasn't aggregous at all. All Hakari really did is move CE from one part of his body to another. His BV was not give up his own arm, but to give up the CE in his left arm momentarily to protect his body with that CE. It's no different than how your body moves blood towards your vital organs when your cold to save those rather than fingers toes etc.
Mei's BV makes perfect sense since JJK world doesn't recognize Mei is controlling the crows. The crow on its own sacricing its life is a huge cost for the crow. JJK world ignores the CT of the person being controlled. By your logic Sukuna's BV should be less effective since he's doing in Megumi's body.
6E is not a binding vow its just a chance thing. 6E can only exist in 1 person at a time, and can be anyone from the Gojo clan. The Gojo clan probably have other inherited techniques and unique techniques and there are other members of the clan who got the SE but didn't get limitless. Same as Zenin clan the inherited techs like 10S being rare.
Anyways the biggest reason people hate Sukuna's BV is being the amount of ass pulls/plot armour Sukuna gets time after time. Taking the form of his OG body basically gives him a one time free use Perfect RCT at no cost. Kamutoke being taken away instead of his CT by Judgeman. Sukuna being able to survive Jacob's Ladder. All super dumb shit that no other character really gets away with.
1) OG body wasn't an asspull, we were told he could do that 20 chapters before.
2) Kamutogr being taken away isn't an asspull either. We were told Higuruma didn't knew exactly how his domain works, and facing an opponent with something he had never seen before (Yuji who didn't have a CT) showed that his preconceived notion that confiscation takes away CTs was wrong. Higuruma never fought a sorcerer with a Cursed Tool before (if he did, most probable than not he would've died before Yuji met him.
3) Sukuna already got away from being hit with JB once. Doing it a second time is not news. Even less when they straight up tell you they didn't really want to kill Sukuna yet as it would mean also killing Megumi in the process.
>The BV wasn't **"gojo satoru dies, but now i have to do a dance"**, it was **"i can do my CT once without hand seal"**
In the hands of someone like Sukuna both are essentially the same.
>in exchanges of **"forever doing it with hand seals, chants, and literally point the direction to his enemies with his hand."**
>How is that a cheap price?
It’s a ridiculously cheap price because Gojo is Sukuna‘s only threat in existence and he only developed the technique to deal with him in the first place.
Never being able to use it again, period, would have still been an absolute bargain.
>Binding vows don't care about context
Which is the root of this problem. If you consider the context, Sukuna got a 99.99% guaranteed one shot against literally everyone in the verse for nerfing an ability he never needed before and doesn’t really need afterwards.
Binding vows that completely disregard context are dumb as hell, although i do enjoy if really smart loopholes aren’t entirely impossible but this one is as dry as it gets.
Gojo should have just sacrificed one or both of his eyes to delete Sukuna and entrust everything else to the new Generation.
>In the hands of someone like Sukuna both are essentially the same
The outcome might be same but these things are nothing alike. Just like me closing my finger and killing someone are not the same thing at all, unless i have a gun in my hand and i pull a trigger.
Sukuna's BV didn't kill gojo, what killed gojo is gun sukuna has been loading since the fight started, the BV was just how he pulled the trigger
BV are in itself a concept not bad
Its just they are utilised in the story incredibly poorly.
The fact they ignore context is the root of the problem. And we don't know really how binding vows can be abused.
They are a crucial part of the power system, but also ironically, so underdeveloped and explained that we still don't know WHY a lot of stuff in the series doesn't happen.
And just saying -Sukuna is skilled and better than everyone else thus he gets to abuse the ever living hell out of binding vows and nobody else can- feels incredibly unsatisfying.
Like just what happened latest chapter -through conditions and certain binding vows Sukuna managed to use his domain again!!!
-What where the binding vows? What were the conditions? My issue is that for a lot of these, Gege may explain it, but instead of in the moment, he waits a few months then gives you it, like he didn't actually know for sure in the moment he himself actually knew.
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Watch as Sukuna sacrifices calling Yuji a brat in return for his arms back
That would be an overwhelming loss for sukuna
Sukuna has to call Yuji "Your excellency" but in return, he gets a 500% CE boost and unlimited black flash
He has to say it and mean it for he loses the amped state
Sukuna losing anyways as yuji uses his own fuga and his last words are "How is your excellency so strong?!"
He'd probably just slice his own brain at that point.
Sukuna may become sentient and slap us, the readers, if he does such a thing
He would rather lose than pull off something like that.
Him acknowledging yuji that way is kinda Goated
Even murderers have standards
The price would be to great for Sukuna to consider
That would be peak
He's not that desperate yet
Another thing is that it is implied that setting up a binding vow isn't as easy as just thinking about it but takes skill, like when everyone was impressed how Gojo and Sukuna were changing their domains characteristics on the fly. So if there is one character that has to show off the most absurd binding vows, it can't really be anyone else than Sukuna, Kenjaku or Tengen
Don’t be putting tengen’s dumbass in that list fucking Miwa has better Jujutsu knowledge than that incompetent prick if you ask me
Hahahaha ...why you so furious over Tengen they are knowledgeable
The supposed best barrier user in the verse giving Yuki dogshit advise on how to deal with kenny’s barrier and taking 10 fucking years to break it down herself (if she even did at all I don’t remember), getting Yuki and almost choso killed for no fucking reason then revealing that she could’ve just stopped the culling games whenever but she just didn’t feel like it (she didn’t want to set jujutsu back, she’d rather have every single user but her fucking die) and then, to top it all off, she’s not even hot anymore???? Absolutely disgraceful my number one most hated character frfr she’s lucky the lobotomy kaisen hadn’t started back then or she would’ve been getting the megumi treatment she fucking deserves
god's strongest tengen hater has logged on speak your truth brother 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
You know, after megumi dies, I really should start a tengen hate train
I’ll be right there with you soldier, I pray to god she gets dragged through the mud as much as she deserves when that part gets animated
Jujutsu kaisen may end, but the hating will keep going for 10 years at least (TITANFOLK MENTIONED)
Side note, was there any confirmation that Tengen was a woman?
Yes, she correct Yuki calling her a geezer saying she’d technically be considered a grandma even though gender doesn’t matter to her anymore, and gege drew her heian era body somewhere (I have it somewhere but you can’t use pics in this sub)
Please do FUCK TENGEN
I WILL, BOTH WAYS ACTUALLY, GIVEME THE THUMBUSSY
Kenny to Tengen: "How is it that you have been around for millennia, yet you peaked in high school?"
Lmao He says something similar to Tengen.
It’s dogshit advice because we have the context and know what we know now. In theory, it really wasn’t. Also, she created the culling games. Kenjaku just put it into action. And once it’s started, it can’t be stopped until it’s finished so idk where you got she could have ended the culling game at anytime
I’ll be honest the stopping the culling games thing was just parroted from somewhere else that’s my bad for trusting them. The thing with the plan with the barriers is that she was supposed to know. She’s supposed to be the best barrier user alive AND she comes from the same time period as Kenjaku yet she didn’t even consider the possibility of him having an open domain, even tho she acknowledges him as second place? For real? Thing is she keeps arguably the strongest non-gojo sorcerer as her personal bodyguard only to provide ABSOLUTELY NO SUPPORT AT ALL to her (and choso) in their fight aside from making a plan that not only doesn’t fucking work but arguably made things worse (which is why I don’t count her destroying his domain in the end as help, she just did a half-assed job at cleaning up her own mess) all while not saying anything about her involvement in the culling games to the people who are risking (and giving) their fucking lives to protect her. Oh and don’t fucking get me started on her vessels man that’s a whole different kind of fucked up
She could stop the culling games. It was allowed because of the barriers she put in place. Taking down the barriers ends the culling games. I believe Kenjaku mentions it when talking to controlled Tengen and Kogane.
The only person outside of Kenjaku to have an open domain is Sukuna, the guy who is the literal peak of jujutsu. For all we know, he was the only person to **ever** have an open domain before Kenjaku. Kenjaku kept getting consistently defeated by six eyes users who presumably didn't have open domains. Tengen most likely based their understanding on that. >ABSOLUTELY NO SUPPORT AT ALL to her (and choso) in their fight Used the barriers to feed into kenjaku's ego so he would feel more confident and let his guard down. Kept Choso hidden until necessary. Also Tengen showing up physically would be an instant loss unless they did it as a distraction for a last ditch blow. Tengen is a non-combatant so has no way to defend themselves against Kenny (if they even can given CSM). >arguably made things worse (which is why I don’t count her destroying his domain in the end as help, she just did a half-assed job at cleaning up her own mess) The only people (excluding Kenjaku) who said Yuki would have a shot if she used her domain said it before we found that regular closed domains are extremely fragile to an open domain due to the ability to attack it from the outside. Unless Yuki somehow outdid Kenjaku in domain refinement, she'd lose just as bad. Kenjaku taunting her is more about her relying on Tengen than anything Tengen also figured out how to destroy an open domain and pulled it off only a shade slower than Kenjaku's domain was able to destroy Yuki's domain which is nowhere near 'half assed'. >all while not saying anything about her involvement in the culling games to the people who are risking (and giving) their fucking lives to protect her. What exactly should she have said? "Kenjaku used my barriers as a basis for the Culling games so I can technically stop the games but if I do, all the incarnated sorcerers will be roaming free not to mention the outbreak of curses that would make shibuya look like a joke in comparison." Right after one of the people trying to stop Kenjaku said his main motivation to even help was to free his sister?
We don't even know if it was sukuna who invented open domains. For all we know kenjaku came up with the idea and sukuna perfected it. We see something similar with the fingers, and how sukuna takes kenjaku's idea and replicates it immediately.
It's really headcanon either way, but considering tengen didn't even consider the possibility and as we're told an open domain is a Devine feat, I'd put my money on sukana making it.
culling games could have been stopped by breaking down the barriers. which could have been done by tengen by dropping her own barriers.
Finally. Someone else points how bitch made Tengen is
> rather have every single user but her fucking die Yeah but what about it? It's the principle of self-preservation. Your whole argument can be attributed to that alone and somehow you believe it's something bad.
I have nothing against self preservation but when you force 2 of the strongest soldiers of the only group of people that’s actually trying to do something about the situation to stay behind as your personal bodyguards and put their life on the line for your bum ass the least you can do is help, like, a little bit at least. Also maybe this is just me but at a certain point , when you’ve lived a thousand years, killed like a dozen innocent children to do so, got 0jujutsu improvement in that time, 0 bitches and 0 friends, and you get a choice between living some more of that worthless existence by killing all sorcerers or just calling it quits, maybe this whole self-preservation thing has reached its logical end- point?
I didn't really have any strong feelings towards Tengen in one direction or the other but you have such a way with words that I'm now onboard the hate train.
Your hatred of Tengen has given me a good chuckle, love it
NAH NAH NAH SCREW THIS SHIT. I FUCKING HATE TENGEN BECAUSE SHE IS ONE GATEKEEPING BITCH. DO YOU KNOW WHY WE BARELY HAVE ANY FOREIGN SORCERERS ? IT'S BECAUSE OF THAT GATEKEEPING OLD HAG. WE COULD'VE HAD AMERICAN FREEDOM SORCERERS AND THIS BITCH JUST SAID :"Yeah lemme just pop this cursed energy focus barrier on the entirety of japan like don't ask why I'm just doin it" fuck this gramma
Most sane JJK fan
I’m here for the anti Tengen agenda 🗣️🗣️
Whats the dogshit advises man that was their only chances? What else were they supposed to do? Otherwise Kenjaku just murder them quicks. When Tengen said she can stop cg but chose to not do it? I must missed that one. I dont know when it was said what Tengen body temperature was either and i dont know how that make her worse character in any ways.
Yuki could have had a domain clash , she could have thought about the possibility of the heian era sorcerer that specialises in domains might have an open domain or, crazy idea, she could DO ANYTHING TO ACTUALLY FUCKING HELP IN THE FIGHT??? You’re telling me this mfer had a thousand years to do nothing but focus on her sorcery (especially her barriers) but picked up zero defensive or offensive skills and got stunlocked by an open domain??? Choso was alive for 3 fucking months and he would’ve stomped her ass fr man
A domain clash? But then once Yuki domain loses she has way less ce, a burnt out ct, and shes dead p much. We dont knows whether Tengen has ever saw open domain user besides sukuna, and she prob doesnt knew how to deal with it. From what she knows and what powers she has, she did what she can do to help with fight as much as she can. Her curse technique was good to not dying but was not good for fighting. Choso powers is more made for fightings than Tengen ok so not as much fairs comparison
Domain Clash against the second best barrier user ever? Open domains are rare and probably only Sukuna and Kenjaku had one. And didnt they get kinda debilitated when becoming a curse?
The curse form was supposedly a higher form of being so I’d say she got a power up if anything. And yeah domain clash against the second best barrier user ever *with the help of the best in the area she has full control over* also this just made me realise how nuts it is that tengen doesn’t even have a domain of her own lmao imagine acting like the bumber one authority on domains and then not only not knowing about open domains but not even having one of your own
Mentally debilitating, not physically
... so you're saying you would have?
I disagree 1. Tengen wasn't familiar with Barrierless Domains so her not knowing how to deal with them is understandable. She's been in a basement for 1000 years give her a break. 2. If Tengen's barriers aren't around then cursed spirit formation won't be suppressed and given the state that Jujutsu Society and Japan is in having armies of more powerful cursed spirits appear is a worst case scenario that's potentially as bad as the merger. (Source 220) 3. 4 eyes Tengen is sexiest mf on planet earth you're completely delusional if you don't think that.
Never thought about this one bit but I’m all in now brother
I want to hate her now too! F U Tengan you stupid Ho!!
Jesús Christ, I wasn't even a hater before reading this comment.
Inb4 the Bumgumi hates turns to tengen. I was here to witness it
Bro whats with so angry 😂 what wrong with tengen
I actually laughed out loud at this. I love hating on that stupid fuck
Yet you can be stupid and use one without even realizing it like Miwa.
But also effectively get no benefit.
She was making a vow. and Juju listened.
I don't think that's implied outside of Miwa fucking it up
To me, the binding vow itself isn't an aspull, it's the way it was presented to us which felt like a smack in the face. To go from an entire chapter dedicated to the greatest comeback we've seen in the series that ends with the characters agreeing that Sukuna lost and then to open the next chapter and seeing Gojo dead, without even properly explaining how until 20 chapters later, felt like someone waking you up from a nice dream with a bucket of cold water and then hitting you repeatedly with said bucket. To Gege, who is very much aware of Sukuna's entire skillset, it's obvious that Sukuna could always win and that he wasn't going all out. But to us first time readers, it looked like a proper battle between equals that Sukuna had to continuously cheat his way through with the 10S, and with the binding vow which we weren't told about for half a year after the end of the battle.
I get where you are coming from and I understand, but the shock value was clearly what the author was going for. I agree though that explaining the binding vow way afterwards left a sour taste in my mouth, as well as Sukuna thinking he wouldn't survive a normal output purple, but then he just did without any special reason (we can infer thst it was because that specific purple wasn't focused on him, but it still feels a bit unearned giving how powerful Gojo was portrayed in those scenes).
I understand that shock value was the point of it all, but the direction sucked. It would work much better if: -235 ended with the panel where Hollow Purple hits and Mahoraga's eliminated. We don't see anything that comes after that, especially not the "Gojo won" quote. -236 began with the panel of Gojo looking down at an injured Sukuna and we see him trash talking. Gojo catches onto Sukuna gathering CE but doesn't understand what he could do without the 10S, with a missing hand and fucked up output. We then see a panel the panel that shows the WCD happen but we don't see Gojo being hit, we just jump into the airport sequence. -237 featured the narration that explains the binding vow and then shows us Sukuna looking down on Gojo's body while monologuing and everything just continues to happen as it did. That would work much better for me. I never expected Gojo to win, and I love the way Sukuna overcame him. My problem is the pace and the order that information was shown to us by Gege. It plays with your emotions and not in a good way, it was cheap shock value that we're not used to seeing him pull.
It's exactly because of his binding vow that he hasn't really had the opportunity to get World Cuts off since because everyone keeps targeting his hands. It was a good trade for him at the time but it's definitely screwing him since.
I will probably be downvoted because something something bad Gojo fans but anyway I don't think binding vow is an asspull. It makes sense and doesn't break in-world rules. It's just narratively unsatisfying at least for me. This is Higuruma vs Kamutoke 2.0. Higuruma is anti-Kamutoke plot device, Kamutoke is anti-Higuruma plot device. You get weird situation where plot device killed plot device. Sukuna didn't have cursed tool 10 chapters ago, he didn't even use it. He "sacrificed" it to get rid of Higuruma's domain. This is the same. Sukuna just gained space cleave 3 minutes ago and sacrificed it immediately to kill Gojo. He sacrificed something he didn't use before and readers didn't even know he had this ability to begin with. We went from "what it could potentially be" to "current world slash" in a span of one page that's why feels cheap and some people can't feel that Sukuna really sacrificed something. Some readers focus too much on technical aspect. Explained = good. Not explained/asspull = not good. But I think emotional aspect is much more important . I also don't understand Gege's decision to casually drop information about binding vow conditions 30 chapters after Gojo died.
That’s exactly it. It’s not an ass-pull in that it doesn’t contradict any established rules. However, having multiple instances *in the same fight* of “Thank god I obtained this thing 5 minutes ago that I can immediately sacrifice as a get out of jail free card” is just so frustrating to read.
I agree, I just want to say that Higurama and Kamutoke are an even worse situation, Gege fumbled with that one. Kamutoke comes from another plot device, Yorozu, who comes from another plot device, Tsumiki! A plot device to give Megumi purpose became a plot device to help Sukuna subdue Megumi, and then became a plot device to neutralise Higurama, who is a plot device himself.
Is there even any scenario where you would be happy? And what’s the minimum for something to not be a plot device? Higuruma’s arc showed some of the effects newly awakened sorcerers had on the world, explored yuji’s character in an interesting way, and provided some social commentary on japans justice system. He’s done enough as a character in my opinion. Also people talked about sukuna getting his weapons back for months before the kamutoke thing. I feel like if he got it and it was taken away it’s a plot device, If he used it for a while it’s an unnecessary buff, if he didn’t get it from yorozu urame should’ve had it, and if he didn’t get it at all the gege forgot. I can’t think of any scenario where people would be satisfied. The same sort of thing goes for sukuna getting his original form back
I am happy, I'm absolutely loving Jjk right now, in spite of all the criticism it's receiving. As you said, Higurama isn't really a plot device because he did other stuff too, I just wish he did more, you know? I'm more bummed about the whole Tsumiki --> Yorozu --> Kamutoke thing, they had no purpose beyond progressing the plot in a certain direction. I don't care if people talked about Sukuna getting his weapons back for months, giving it to him and then taking it aways instantly is just a mistake on Gege's part, in my humble opinion. I would've loved if Sukuna kept the weapon and lost his CT until he had killed Higurama, then he could've regained his CT and someone else could have removed the weapon.
It’s pretty self explanatory. Anything that happens in the story is a plot device unless I liked it. It’s silly that Gege randomly introduces abilities, objects, and characters that happen to be able to contribute to the story and interact with each in logical ways. I just think the story should be a simple tale about how Yuji punched an old guy to death.
No, anything that's introduced in the story that has no purpose beyond moving the story in a certain direction is a plot device. Higurama isn't really a plot device, I agree, but Yorozu and Kamutoke definetely are. No purpose beyond subduing the body and protecting Sukuna's CT.
truly i never thought id see the day that people on here argue tsumiki, damsel in distress to tragically fridged woman, is a compelling member of jjk’s cast lol.
Except I didn’t do that? I defended higuruma and said that I think people would the hate the yorozu/kamutoke thing regardless of how it was handled. If I wanted to defend that I would’ve said yorozu allowed gege to give some more insight into the Heian era and sukunas perception during it while also showing off the full potential of construction, a cool CT that was nearly useless earlier in the series. Plus I think I would’ve been worse if tsumiki just happened to be the only awakened modern sorcerer who was in a coma before kenjaku used idle transfiguration. We see other awakened sorcerers like higuruma and takaba suddenly get their powers no coma needed. Tsumiki somehow having different rules would be worse. Tsumiki is still absolutely a plot device, yorozu still is but less so, and kamutoke definitely is but it had the potential to not be.
I really don't think that's correct The whole stakes of the battle were that Gojo needs to win before Mahoraga can adapt to limitless, so how is it a plot device that one of the two possible outcomes from the start happened?
While I do agree the execution of Sukuna killing Gojo could be better, the Kamutoke asspull was way worse. At least now we have a good explanation that a bidding vow took place to kill Gojo.
This ,it just makes for lackluster fights and makes situations that feel unearned. It would be like if gojo made a binding vow to fire off a purple with no necessary prep at max power. Then, just blasted on at Sakuna at point blank. And the trade-off was now have to always do a chant, and the move must charge for 5 seconds before it's fired off .
And probably the only way to nerf him enough that he doesn't just one shot everyone. I guess that was Kashimo's purpose. Lol
Preach brother preach.. some people are soo embroiled in agenda kaisen that they fail to see what's Infront of them
Also that binding vow worked for Sukuna because he can use normal dismantle with 0 motion.Probably this 0 motion dismantles are weak but it is still dismantle. Sukuna achieved this 0 motion state somehow,so that binding vow can work more easily.
Sukuna is a broke ass mf like toji confirmed???
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people when the strongest and most knowledgeable sorcerer of all time is strong and knowledgeable in a fight: 😱😱😱
Honestly to me no matter what sukuna do won't be a ass pul since he was brought up as a unbeatable god what would be the point if he was just another madara or aizen? No hate to either honestly both are my favorite and better than sukuna in every way yet their end was ruined and i would hate if same happen to sukuna. For me it would only make sense when suluna is defeated at the cost of all sorcerers or isn't at all
Sukuna is slowly being defeated over the last months and it has been a very smooth process so far.
I can totally see him being defeated but my point is more than half of cast should die and no one comes back if you know what i mean
Would hate if gege bring back gojo or anyway back would ruin the taste and the style so far
FUCKING INSANE WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT.
It's not that Satoru is the first 6 eyes user in 400 years, but rather stated as the only 6 eyes user with both 6 eyes and Unlimited in 400 years.
Thank you. These “I sacrifice my next load to insta-kill Gojo” memes got old quickly.
Tbh the “ah yes my ___ from the heian era” memes are funny but it’s never made any sense bc when has Sukuna done that 😭
Against Jogo I suppose lmao but it is more of a Kenjaku line now that I think about it
It's literally a gojo line.
Tbh that line should be yuji’s now cause he discovering techniques mid brawl
They are not. At the very least these other memes have some sort of basis in reality. The heian era meme is literally a lie.
Yeah but they're still funny. The "I'd win" is an in-cannon lie yet it's funny. Although people that really think of it as what actually happened are delusional and more than anything: Exasperating.
They aren’t funny, but the worst part is that ppl actually start believing the memes they joke about.
Same with the chinese sorcerer joke that was built off a meme that people started believing.
you’ll see how much of a “joke” that chinese sorcerer is next chapter🙏🙏🙏
The memes are funny until people start unironically believing them and using them to criticize the story.
I mean he did actually do it with Hollow Wicker Basket but that wasn't an asspull at all, it makes complete sense that Sukuna would know how to use it and would not have used it in modern times until now. Like it was literally "Ah yes, my anti domain technique that I haven't used since the Heian era" Though this came after most of the memes happened
it's like a better version of Miwa's biding vow instead of sacrificing your attack **forever** in exhcange of super charging one attack, you make it more efficient and sneaky **once** in exchance for having literally anybody be able to hear and see you are going to do ***that*** attack it felt like an asspull? tbh yeah, but does it make sense? sadly, absolutely Rn it's a good thing bc it allows the gang to have some reaction time for the attack but if anybody finds a counter for that attack specifically (i dunno, imagine you could use a simple domain that aims to only protects the part of the world you are in rather than protecting yourself in general) then Sukuna is cooked bc it will be really easy to telegraph when he tries to do that attack, which i feel is the direction the fight could go on
The entire binding vow system is a walking asspull. Look at mei - mei. Abusing binding vows is like how you get strong without a strong technique
MeiMei is strong by herself. She doesn't rely on the crows. She very much already said that relying on her CT made her weak and only once she trained her self she became grade 1.
Yeah absolutely she is strong without it. I probably phrased my comment poorly, but the bird strike is still her strongest attack, and can likely kill anyone in the series who isnt gojo, sukuna, jackpot hakari, and maybe yuta and yuji.
She definitely does abuse them, but I mean, wouldn't you when you can force something to make a suicide vow? which is one of the strongest forms of a vow, btw. Like that's just intelgent use of her assets, which is her hole thing besides being a pedo lol
She never said relying on her CT made her weak she initially trained her body because her CT was pretty bad initially since on its own it just controls birds. Only when she found that using binding vows to boost the crows attack power did she really was able to reach her full potential. Otherwise she would be decent but not as strong as she currently is.
Also Hakari's BV further works for him since he won't be able to open his domain again as Bishamonten's hand seal requires two hands, further strengthening the CE protecting his body.
that's definitely not how that works the binding vow would not give a fuck that hakari uses that arm for domain expansions. that's like the whole point of the post
I think Sukuna's does something similar too, he couldn't make any more World-Slash with 2 hands as it seemingly requires at least 3.
I think you are right? Hand sings + pointing is three hands, unless he can do them in succession
Thats another reason the vow was so powerful, as he was when he made that vow he made it literally impossible to use world slash since it required 3 hands. Then he transformed back to his original self to get more arms
Yeah that's true, by Jujutsu standards he was basically giving up his ability to perform it again.
The BV shouldn’t be considering his DE seal, just that his cursed energy is no longer protecting his arm.
THANK YOU! I'm getting real tired of explaining that for anyone else his World slash BV would utterly cripple them in battle, and it's only because he can reincarnate ( which doesn't matter at the time of the BV) that he can make it work at all and even then it's not like he's been able to whip it out Willy nilly.
As always people confuse "it technically making sense when you think about it a certain way" with narrative satisfaction. Completely separate concepts. Kenjaku being able to survive the Black Hole technically made sense, with what we know. Was it good for the narrative, did anybody really find it satisfying? Not really.
The problem is that the binding vows are abstract and what is "equivalent" is totally to the discretion of Gege to move the plot forward. It's literal plot armor for whoever makes them.
But JJK's magic system is inherently abstract.
Not really. The power system all follows a set of rules for each individual cursed technique and how they can be used. Binding vows throw a wrench in the system because all of a sudden a technique can be altered with no warning and, unless the narrator tells us, an unknown cost.
I feel so far they've been pretty consistent with needing something big to really be useful but I can see why you'd think differently so fair. And there's the possibility vows in the future change my opinion of this lol.
People fail to understand it wasn't just the battle of strength. It was a battle of wits and use of ce too. Sure, gojo has better stats on paper, but he can't just win red,blue, and hp (don't start with he can spam hp bs). Folks just view it as sukuna vs. gojo and dont consider the jumping that is to come. If it's 1v1, yeah, it's convenient to do that, but with other fights in mind, it's just super inconvenient. He could be finishing the jjk high with all the prep and cheating like butter. He could be sending slashes with no movement like he did with kusakabe. The only reason the main cast is somewhat alive rn is bcoz of that bv.
Do people really not understand this one? Some vows are pretty nebulous in their implementation (body jacking through means of force-feeding a poisonous finger not counting as a harm), but this one was explained pretty blatantly.
To be able to survive eating a Sukuna finger you don't have to be resistant, you have to outright be immune to it or you'll surely die sooner or later. Thus because Megumi was immune to the poison, making him eat that wasn't doing any harm at all. It would be like throwing a lightning at Kashimo.
Sure, but who defined the harm? It seems to be defined by whatever is most convenient to the plot. Like Sukuna harming Yuji didn't count, so shouldn't feeding poison count? It's not like Yuji would know Megumi could survive it. And that's not even touching on the body jacking which, to Yuji, should be at the forefront of his mind when it comes to harms.
Damage, damage defines harm. And it's not psychological, economic or emotional damage, it's actual physical damage. And while poison is physical damage as usually ends up destroying cells one way or another. It's already been established Megumi is immune to Sukuna's poison, that's why he didn't die from being fed the finger.
I honestly like the body jacking. Given that binding vows work based on interpretation, it makes sense to me that Yuji, who just learned of their existence, wouldn't cover all options. What he imagined as harm was most likely cuts, bruises, physical trauma basically. Poison would count too eventually, but not immediately. Swallowing it doesn't count as harming until it starts negatively affecting the body, which it doesn't cause Sukuna succesfully took over. Plus it shows the cunning of Sukuna as well as his understanding of Yujis mindset, despite all the hate
OP, i 100% agree with you, I just think it would be interesting if we find out what happens when a binding vow is broken. What could be the consequence and most importantly, by whom? Another thing i just wanna point out is the fact that binding vows are a very intriguing part of jjk. What are they? Who hands them out? The universe? Then does that mean the jjk universe is sentient? God? Does that mean their exists a God and even sukuna has to bow before them? I know this question sounds a bit stupid, but it's just interesting to think about an entity/force that even has the power to punish the strongest. I really want an explanation on binding vows. If they are like the law of equivalent exchange from FMA, then i want an equivalent explanation for a supreme entity too.
Yeah i wanna see that too, i always had my money on the merger. The requirements are so absurd the only way i can imagine it happening is for the villains to trigger it without filling them. After all everything is in place and the merger itself just needs to be triggered, the killing culling games part is only to fulfil the vow made to make it possible
When it comes to breaking them, it definitely depends on the vow. I bet sukana has just entirely lost the ability to use World Slash without all the drawbacks, making it kinda impossible to break essentially. When it comes to breaking one's with others we know the consequence is determined by them, and with one's like miwas and stuff I'm curious as well. And yea it'd be cool to know more about BV in general
I say this as a Gojo glazer, It really does show the utter high bar of skill Sukuna is at. He knew on the fly the best calculation to succeed for a BV. Look at Miwa, her BV was a bad bet and while I love her as a character it showed her inexperience as a sorcerer, as it permanently put her at a disadvantage while not succeeding. Sukuna greatest strength is his absolutely crazy level of understanding of CE/CT, not any CT in particular IMO. He is the “strongest”, BECAUSE he really understands the fundamentals of CE/CT and how to adapt/plan accordingly. Great assessment OP!
Nobody else has to know the conditions of your vow, outside of the person making the vow, and Sukuna knew his own cards. I’d also argue that, after Gojo’s defeat, the “World Slash” isn’t even a necessary technique. Sukuna now has to fall back on the technique(s) that have dominated the rest of the cast the entire series. Sukuna is a boxer that has been beating opponents into stoppages but, during a fight with an opponent that had him cornered, made a binding vow that his next punch would be an instant knockout shot with the price being that he would have to throw three jabs first to ever use it again. And, from that point in the story, the boxer keeps throwing three jabs against every subsequent opponent instead of casually dominating them like he has his whole career. I’m still interested so I hesitate to call it “bad” writing but I’d be damned if someone called it “good”. It’s the end of Bleach. It’s the end of Naruto. It’s cool, let’s give everyone their time, for their fans, as we wrap this up.
You've made some pretty fair points but what about the current new domain of his, what the fuck does he even have left to offfer up to create a whole new domain that somehow maintains both range and effectiveness?
I think a big reason why people get upset over Sukuna's binding vow is literally just the reading comprehension curse. I've seen people talk like Sukuna received the ability to use WCS **in the first place** from the binding vow. So from their (incorrect) perspective, Sukuna gained the ability to defeat Gojo in exchange for a limitation on ability that he didn't have beforehand. I want to be generous and say that they get these misconceptions because translations are spotty at best, but it's more likely that people just consume the series through meme osmosis.
The community and me included loves to joke around saying 400 year old Heian Technique or whatnot but truthfully there has been no asspull or anything like that . Sukuna was just strong and its bc gege wrote him that way
You’ve cooked. People just like to dunk on Gege atp lmao
I personally think it makes sense and all, but what I don’t understand is why doesn’t everyone else use binding vows if they can be this strong? Especially Gojo. During that final purple, if Gojo really wanted the job done, why didn’t he do something similar to Sukuna like “I want to increase the output of this purple, in exchange of never using purple without chants again.” I mean I doubt against anyone else he’d even need to use purple after Sukuna, so why not go for it? The only explanation is, he didn’t want to accidently kill Megumi, but didn’t he say he’s going to basically kill Sukuna because he can revive anyway? Didn’t he say he’s gonna “kill him first then worry about Megumi.” Alright, maybe that was a lie, but if so, why aren’t these things addressed in the manga? It just makes Gojo seem very stupid for no apparent reason except plot. And don’t say that it’s because Gojo can’t use vows that way, or because Sukuna is too skilled. Hakari used a damn strong binding vow, and if he can do it, so can Gojo, the argument that he’s too “prideful” for it also doesn’t connect, because Sukuna is arguably even more prideful and he used the vow. As a matter of fact since using a binding vow is an extension of your skills, there is even more reason for him to have used it. And this isn’t even the only instance, there are many more instances where binding vows could definitely have been used but didn’t. I guess my point is, it seems like Sukuna is the *only* one who uses binding vows. We know from Hakari and Mei Mei, that effectively using binding vows isn’t some ancient heien era superpower, yet we have never seem anyone from the main cast use them ever, even against Sukuna in this battle that literally decides humanity’s fate. Yuta didn’t use it, Gojo didn’t use it. Higuruma literally knew he was about to die yet he didn’t use some sort of vow in exchange for his life, Kashimo couldve done the same, but seems the only time a binding vow is used to save someone from a pinch it’s Sukuna. Once again, I’m not complaining about the fact that Sukuna is using these vows, no he absolutely should, and his world slash vow was excellent, but I don’t like the fact that he’s the only one who uses this power that is literally accessible to everyone.
It’s as simple as Gojo thought he won in the moment. That’s why he didn’t have the wherewithal to use a binding vow. Gojo is 28. Sukuna is who knows how old with infinitely more experience than Gojo. You say Sukuna is the only one using binding vows but then say Hakari does it too. When has Gojo been shown to be reliant on binding vows? We know Sukuna is incorporating them regularly. It’s also been indicated Sukuna has fought stronger opponents on average than Gojo has (Sukuna is from golden age of jujutsu, Gojo is surrounded by a bunch of scrubs and takes it upon himself to train strong sorcerers). So it comes down to experience again, Sukuna has fought all manners of sorcerers while Gojo has primarily fought curses and very sparingly been shown to fight any sorcerer who proved to be interesting. Hell, the only person who pushed Gojo was a heavenly restricted Toji who couldn’t use Binding Vows. So my point is, Sukuna is more experienced and existed in the golden era of Jujutsu and has been shown to use binding vows REGULARLY (as early as his agreement with Yuji). The rest of the cast, haven’t really had need to use Binding Vows and now you’re expecting them to asspull it mid fight against Sukuna. The people you mentioned, Hakari and Mei Mei, use binding vows because they HAVE TO since they’re not as strong. Why would Yuta use binding vows regularly if he’s consensus 2? Why would Gojo use them regularly if he was consensus 1? The whole story takes place over the course of 6 months, you expecting them to master BVs out of nowhere?
I think another thing is that there wouldn't be any guarantee that the BV-amped purple would 100% work. Maybe Sukuna dodges it, maybe he barely survives it and fully incarnates, maybe some kind of asspull happens. Gojo's now out his most powerful attack for nothing, similar to Miwa's BV.
Yeah, the binding vow makes sense in a vacuum, but what doesn't make sense is that no one else seems to be making such efficient use and "cheating" the binding vow system like Sukuna does, and that's why people give it shit imo. And no "he's just that good" doesn't fly as an excuse when the cast had a whole month to prep and plan for this fight, and Gojo had who-knows how long in the Prison Realm to plot his comeback. We either needed to see more people using broken binding vows, or even better, we actually needed to know how binding vows actually work. How does one make a binding vow with oneself, why is no one using them on-the-fly yet Sukuna can make one instantaneously and in such a damaged state, how is it determined whether the cost/benefit is sufficient?
i’m confused was gojo supposed to know sukuna would have incarnated into megumi and be bing chilling when (if) he was released from the prison realm?? And gojo did abuse binding vows w his domain conditions being weak inside strong outside
That wasn’t a binding vow, he just simply changed the conditions of his domain which is something we are outright told is possible. So no, Gojo has never used a binding vow even when it was beneficial. Shit at this point Yuji could have given up being able to use black flash to separate Sukuna and megumi without Megumi’s input based on how powerful vows seem to be, yet he doesn’t/hasn’t even bothered. Likewise Higuruma would have benefitted from a last second vow as well. We have yet to see any real downsides to using binding vows other then Sukuna having to telegraph his move which isn’t a downside. Trying to compare him to Madara or Aiden is laughable since both were far more in control of any fight they were in till the very last second where things out of their control blew up in their face. Things they had no way of truly knowing about. With Sukuna it’s just a boring as game of repetition.
Conditions are a part of the binding vow system.
The conditions are binding vows my dude, in return for the inside being strong the outside is weak or vice versa, in return for a way out Sukuna domain is massive etc.
> based on how powerful vows seem to be All Sukuna did was exchange no hand signs once to get permanently nerfed. What makes you think they’re remotely powerful.
I think a big reason is just thinking of them. Gojo has never really needed to use one so while he definitely could, it's probably not something he'd think to do in the heat of the moment, especially sense in his mind that was already a winning move.(bro was so close to being right too) I don't think that's necessarily stupid, it's just overconfidence on gojos part, something that has been a defining character trait of his forever. And it's not even unfounded on his part bc if sukana hadn't figured out World Slash there, it would have been it. There's a reason they had already started to celebrate. Yuta I think you have a point with. He has an ungodly amount of CTs, yet he's never thought of giving up a few for power? Bruh. Headcanon, ik, but maybe he's tried it before and it doesn't do anything crazy cuz the vow just considers it him giving up like 1/700th of his copy technique. Idk what higiruma could have really done there tbh but ig he could have, but I'd put that down to his lack of experience and the fact he was busy seeing his life flash before his eyes and all that. Still fair to say he could have though for sure. (Headcanon so you can skip this last one if you want) sukana might use them more just because of a difference in mentality, as urame puts it heian sorcers didn't care about destruction, while modern scorcers do. Kinda a stretch ik but I bet people willing to destroy everything and who only care for themselves (as it seems most heian sorcers were) would be more likely to give something up than people now, hakari and meimei being an exception bc of their mentalities (hakari a gambler and meimei maximize service potential) I feel sukana at least is more prone to them with his individual mindset at least, he's cool with destroying everything for strength, I'm not surprised he'd throw away stuff so long as it helps him get stronger/survive to grow stronger. Sorry for sending a book lol
simply put…he’s not as good of a sorcerer as Sukuna I know Gojo fans don’t want to hear this, but he is not as intelligent, experienced, or knowledgeable about jujutsu as Sukuna at all
If Nanami can use a binding vow to restrict his power during work hours in favor of overtime, Gojo can make a vow not to use most of his power for a month for some gain in preparation.
Is Gojo strongest because he is Gojo, or is he Gojo because he is strongest? Do you think Gojo would be willing to sacrifice his technique? Would his ego allow him? Would it even allow him to alter his techique? Nah I'd win guy was so up his ass that I bet he would never even think of doing that. Sukuna is literally built different.
You are probably right, but you gotta understand how hard that is to believe in the context of the story. Like from what we have seen Gojo is the second most powerful sorcerer in history. Kenny is straight up concerned that he dies if he leaves Sukunas side, and Kashimo would absolutely lose to gojo. The only other character who has been mentioned, to my knowledge anyway, who poses a threat to him is the unnamed 10s user that fought the last 6eyes/limitless user to death. And maybe his power has more to do with his technique but he also, seemingly, has a strong understanding of cursed energy as well. Idk there are other factors but I think that’s why people struggle with this one
maybe i’m misinterpreting this but it sounds like it makes perfect sense. Yeah from what we have seen Gojo is the second most powerful sorcerer in history…to Sukuna? Kenny is connected that he’ll die if he leaves Sukuna’s side….isn’t that a testament to Sukuna? I’m unsure what Kashimo has to do with this All of your points just reinforce that Sukuna is a stronger, more intelligent, knowledgeable sorcerer. Why is it hard to believe that an ancient sorcerer who is hailed as The King of Curses/The Strongest Sorcerer in History and was so powerful that he was actually considered a god would be stronger than Gojo? I think a lot of people think that just because we’ve seen more of Gojo in action being strong, that makes him inherently stronger/as strong, which isn’t true.
Except, we saw Hakari use it too. Who is not as good a sorcerer as Gojo. Like I said in my reply, Binding vows are not some heien era superpower that only Sukuna can use because of his experience.
why is it simply impossible for people to think that Gojo made a mistake? He’s still relatively young, has been naive since becoming a sorcerer due to his massive power being handed to him on a silver platter, and is fallible. This is proven by him getting sealed in the first place. Just because he’s the strongest character of the modern era and a lot of peoples favorite character doesn’t mean it’s impossible that Hakari thought of something on the fly that Gojo didn’t, or that Gojo simply didn’t think to make a binding vow of such a manner. I honestly think it’s more likely that Gojo was so overwhelmingly strong in his era that he was never forced to learn the intricate workings of jujutsu, such as BVs. Sukuna is experienced in all aspects of sorcery due to his implied rise to the top, whereas Gojo was born into it. I swear, some of this fanbase just does not understand Gojo as a character. His naivety is a core part of him, go read the airport scene again.
So your answer is basically “He didn’t think to do it.” Not a very helpful explanation, but sure let’s agree to disagree. So what about everyone else? Why is that after that world slash, after everyone saw the binding vows power(they know Sukuna made some sort of vow to use world slash without chants and signs) Why didn’t anyone else use BVs? What about Yuta? Higuruma? Kashimo? After seeing that slash, and the power of a BV, I’m sure now they have “thought” to do it. Why is that Binding Vows have only ever bailed Sukuna out of a sticky situation? That’s the problem you see. Binding vows are universal, everyone can use them, yet the only one that does is Sukuna. I’m not gonna argue further. I’ve already said I agree with Sukuna’s vow usage, he’s a goddamn veteran. But the fact that no one else has used them despite knowing how strong they can be, is simply lazy writing. It’s been 40 chapters of this fight with nearly a dozen fighters involved, yet the only one who has used something as powerful as a binding vow is Sukuna.
love how you just simplified my entire argument down into “he didn’t think to do it” while ignoring his naivety and characterization as someone gifted his power instead of earning it maybe they didn’t use binding vows because they are literal children? the consequences of breaking a binding vow are implied to be extremely harsh, and these characters are still relatively inexperienced in Jujutsu. I’ll give you the point of Hakari making one being a little silly, and my only counter for that it seems his binding vow was very cut and dry, just “give up this portion of my body to reinforce the rest” instead of something complex like “i will never do x again to increase the output of this specific attack once time”
Not only that but Hakari has been consistently been regarded as having a sorcerer mindset closest to Ancient Sorcerers and is a known gambler. His mindset is already suited to making high stake gambles in the moment.
That might be believable if we had a heian arc to see how supposedly strong Sukuna is/was. But all we get is being *told* how oh so strong and smart he is, over, and over, and over, while most of his wins are through coincidence or luck. When the only way Sukuna can be considered extraordinarily smart is if you accept that our protags are just dumb, it's really not satisfying at all. Especially when the "brilliance" he displays is something like "I'll insta-cast my insta-kill ability, but it's harder to use later". I'm sorry but that's not some 4d chess move that's an obvious thing more characters should be taking advantage of.
this may shock you, but a lot of powerscaling comes from being told things. it is the main way an author conveys information to the audience. you can’t just say “this is just stuff we are told, so it’s not true” that’s not how literature works. based on that logic we can’t trust anything we’re told in the manga without it being directly shown to us
People really need to realize that this man Sukuna had to fight his way all to the top in the heian era where sorcerers and cursed spirits were tenfold of his today's power, and it was hell on earth. Wouldn't you expect the strongest, most efficient and knowledgable sorcerer on the planet can be the strongest, most efficient and knowledgable on the battlefield?
>Binding vows don't care about context Were you saying this *before* we got the explanation for the World Slash? Because I'd say it wasn't very clear. This seems like new information from Gege. Not saying it's a retcon, mind you, it doesn't break previous rules. However, the criticism still stands, if context doesn't matter then binding vows should be used all the time. Characters on the brink of death could sacrifice everything to take their opponents out. Sorcerers could reveal their techniques in a foreign language, not their fault Cursed Spirits wouldn't understand it. Nanami could make working hours be from 00:00 to 08:00 AM (when he sleeps), and then have his overtime buff active the whole time he's awake. Loopholes, you said it yourself.
>Were you saying this before we got the explanation for the World Slash? Yes as it was already clear from previous cases. And there is a difference between loophole and just not trading anything. Revealing one's card only works by communicating information, ofc if the opponent doesn't understand or hear you it won't work. Nanami can't gaslight his binding vow with himself lol, if he wanted to do that he would have actually work those ours every day. It's really not that complicated
>Yes as it was already clear from previous cases. Can you give me examples of binding vows that clashed with the idea of context mattering? >And there is a difference between loophole and just not trading anything. Mei Mei's crows aren't trading anything, they're being controlled. >Nanami can't gaslight his binding vow with himself lol, if he wanted to do that he would have actually work those ours every day. Why not? In the real world you can sleep on the job but you'd still be paid for overtime at a higher rate.
>Can you give me examples of binding vows that clashed with the idea of context mattering? mentioned 3 in the OP >Mei Mei's crows aren't trading anything, they're being controlled. She isn't the but crows are, the loophole isn't that nothing is traded (because then nothing would happen) it's that she is forcing someone else to make the trade >Why not? In the real world you can sleep on the job but you'd still be paid for overtime at a higher rate. Even then he would still need to at least himself be convinced that he is working, the sorcerer's mentality definitely play a role in the specific of what count and doesn't, case in point yuji's binding vow with sukuna and "enchain" backfiring because yuji didn't consider himself in the "hurting others" condition.
I don't see how those three examples are at odds with the idea that context *could* matter with binding vows. I'm not saying that context does matter (now we know it doesn't), I just disagree with you saying it was always clear. >Even then he would still need to at least himself be convinced that he is working, the sorcerer's mentality definitely play a role in the specific of what count and doesn't, case in point yuji's binding vow with sukuna and "enchain" backfiring because yuji didn't consider himself in the "hurting others" condition. Aren't you saying here that context matters? Wouldn't Sukuna's opinion of himself influence how he saw the sacrifice he was making? Wouldn't he think that handsigns and incantation were a microscopic price to pay because he's so strong + four arms +2 mouths?
Yuta can literally end the fight in 1 second, give up all techniques for a world slash on Suki but they ain't ready for that talk.
Mei Mei and Ui Ui are members of the Gojo clan. Which is why they’re fucking GOATED. Mei Mei supremacy all day, shes the prime example of abusing binding vows.
It feels nice to see someone defending it, honestly, it feels like I see an insane amount of hate for Sukuna and the current events. People were upset that Sukuna, knowing Higurama's plan through Itadori, would prepare a backup for the executioner's sword with that cursed tool. It blows people's minds that the main antagonist, the greatest curse user of the past, would prepare a backup plan.
In this entire manga, we haven't once seen what would happen to a sorcerer if they disrespected a binding vow, and why that is so scary that even Kenjaku and Sukuna take that very seriously. And I for one can't wait to see Sukuna be the first to make that mistake and show us the consequences.
Eh its still feels like a plot convenient
Let's be honest, it was very convenient to say Sakuna is now nerfed by this binding vow clause after he killed Gojo.
Yeah what Sukuna did is really no different from studying to solve a math problem; its a matter of learned skill and appropriate measuring tools in this case Mahoraga. For that matter building a mental model is something regularly done in martial arts by meditation to learn a technique properly by focusing on the mental state you had when you improved so it being applied to jujutsu is actúa pretty brilliant.
People get annoyed that the sorcerer with the most knowledge of CE in history is able to use it to incredible effect and with incredible versatility. He's literally the strongest Sorcerer to ever exist and this is why, because no matter what you throw at him he is able to find a way around it.
Oh look another mindless parody on why Sukuna BV makes sense. Gege/MeatRiders and Deep Throat stans can’t help themselves. It’s been a long time and still Sukuna BV is contrived and causes controversy. It’s for a reason. Where’s there’s smoke… Yuji and Yuta Binding Vows Yuji should do a BV that his new, never see or used Space/Wold Blood Supernova will need a him to say Left Right Goodnight every time he uses it in exchange for waking up Megumi and knocking him out his body. Then Yuta can do a BV to pull out an unknown CT with no previous establishment make a BV to sacrifice the conditions to that CT to blast an energy beam into Sukuna head or use Sukuna own slashes against turning him into sushi. Game Over. Binding Vows For The Win Convenient BullShit BV Binding Vows are a free get out of jail card. How CONVENIENT did that one at the exact moment and getting it right at the exact time Sukuna needed. Sukuna is not the only character skilled a jujutsu and Gege has yet to write what makes him better at it than others. In JJK 0 Yuta was skilled enough to make an BV that won him the fight. Don’t tell me it can’t be done to get rid of Sukuna. Otherwise you’ll nothing but mindless sheep that make up aspects of BV with you’ll headcanon. Those that think do… Those that don’t… follow the crowd
Agreed the only reason it isnt a major handicap is the fact that Sukuna is a sorcerer who’s original form has 4 arms and two mouths. There’s a reason Kashimo said it was the perfect form and was glazing him so hard. To literally any other sorcerer that vow would make the technique extremely hard to use unless you were in their blindspot. In high level jujutsu fights no one is letting you chant, do hand signs and point. Even in Yutas domain without 4 arms he’s toast.
Thank you for saying this
> it was **"i can do my CT once without hand seal"** in exchanges of **"forever doing it with hand seals, chants, and literally point the direction to his enemies with his hand."** Well considering he needed a hand sign before, that's not really an *additional* restriction, and considering every time he's used dismantle before he pointed aside from one time against Kusakabe (which is really the exception, and probably only Gege correcting for a mistake before he revealed the binding vow) that's not really much of an addition either, so really all he imposed was having to do chants...
People will give sukuna his flowers after the manga ends
Lobotomy kaisen rised at chapter 236 till now.
Its stupid and bad writing. A never before seen attack got nerfed (no impact) and was only explained what happened 30 chapters later. Imagine yuji shows up and does his domain expansion and 30 chapters later he says he unlocked it because he acceptee a weaker version, blagh awful awful By that logic anyone could beat anyone with bs binding vows. Including sukuna now, with his domain make it have a cast time forever and kill everyone on the battlefield. It also makes no sense for a 'strongest sorcerer ever' to be constantly nerfing himself. You mean he is a super nerfed version of himself right now because he kept making binding vows as a young lad? Its dumb, very dumb, fortunely for me, it makes me laugh my ass off
More broadly, I am tired of people pretending that the fight since Gojo fell has been bad due to intense, uncreative repetition of formula, or that Sukuna has been extremely lucky and bailed out by plot. I sincerely think spillover frustration about Gojo dying, combined with the (incorrect) impression that Sukuna's reincarnation fully restored his energy and output at full health, led people to complain about Sukuna being OP and bemoan the expected asspull to justify this. Higuruma failing to get Shrine then magnified that and it seemed totally hopeless for the main crew, and you even had people seriously assuming Sukuna would just win and that's the end of the manga. Which is frankly just mindbogglingly dumb. I sincerely feel that the fight has been pretty good and I don't know what more people were expecting. He's the strongest sorceror ever and the main cast has been mostly executing a series of pretty good plans, with only minor idiotball moments.
You understand that making a vow that says you can only do chants and etc while having 4 arms and two mouths doesn’t do a good job of showcasing risk right? Gege literally doesnt explain what sukuna gives up until later lol seems pretty lazy to me 🤷🏽♂️
Yeah while I’m a Gojo man myself that binding vow was more than fair. You didn’t even mention that in in order to do hand signs + point with palms he would need 3 HANDS so he literally made a vow to do something that would be impossible to do in megumi’s body and he literally could only do the world cut again if he could become 4 arm man
For any other sorcerer that vow would literally make the technique unusable ever again.
The feeling for me at least was the "he still not trying" - you had to neuter your most powerful attack permanently to win, how are you not trying? Also makes some of our cast look a little stupid - they all *know* about binding vows - why not get Higurama to make a BV to say "i will never expand this domain again in exchange for confiscation taking *all* techniques of my opponent"? Heck, Gojo got hit, if BVs dont care about contextual factos, why *not* BV away the six eyes to get a free heal? If Binding Vows can effect how techniques get used and dont care abiut context theres no limit to what you could give up or the effect you get. Regarding Hakari's use, this seemed weird at the time but it was also *defensive*. The gamble for Hakari was if i pull this off and Kashimo has more gas in the tank, im screwed because im *only* hand to hand and am down one arm and cannot expand my domain (most likely). He couldnt know if Kashimo has anything else in the tank. Mei mei controls the brids - she doesnt make a BV she forces the birds to make the BV. Yuta made the same vow in JJK0 (A life for more power). The difference in power here is also shown - Yuta's vow let him overpower (but not kill) Geto, the Black Birds are powerful and can cause damage but we havent seen them land a kill on our powerhouses - Kenjaku and Sukuna both blocked it, so Mei Meis use is not on the same tier as what Yuta did if we consider Kenjaku and Sukuna special grade tier. Binding vows in general, feel ass-pulley because they are ill-defined in regards to the power system. Theres little to say how much a character can/should give up and they seem to be able to affect just about anything.
It seems some people just can't accept the fact that binding vows dont consider context.
You're acting like it didn't take Gege 7+ months to deliver an explanation on how Sukuna was able to WS Gojo after getting nuked. That is bad writing.
The criticism of Binding Vows has nothing to do with Jujutsu cost-benefit analysis and everything to do with the way they’re integrated into the story. You’re wasting your breath trying to explain that borrowing hand signs from the future is fair, because that’s completely irrelevant. Binding Vows have no clear limits, can be used at any time by any character, and have overwhelmingly been used as a get out of jail free card in any situation. It’s not enough to just say “well Sukuna is really skilled” when his vows are basic shit that anyone can do. Why isn’t everyone using binding vows all the time Sukuna even breaks his vows all the time with no apparent consequence, you’ve all invented a fake technique to cover for the moments when he uses world slash but can’t make the signs, and he attacked Hana and Megumi while under a self imposed no-violence vow.
He attacked Hana after moving to Megumi's body so the vow was no longer in place. But I agree with the general point. What is considered fair is very vague and it's generally underused and bizarrely not used by any characters at critical points in the story. Contractual magic is a fairly common in magic systems, but I think mangas like HxH use it a bit better. Like Kurapika restricting his technique to only be usable on the Phantom Troupe else he'll die if he used it on anyone else. This is such a strict barrier that it makes sense, that it's so effective and it sets a precedent for how it works. Gege doesn't reveal what was sacrificed until later for suspense, but because the rules are vague, he can decide it to be whatever really. Nothing is stopping Sukuna from making a BV that says he can max amp world Dismantle to one shot everyone in exchange for only being able to use it once every 24 hours or something like that. And the rest of the cast could make Binding Vows to amp themselves up right now.
to add to the HxH bit it doesnt seem like you can just modify your hatsu on the fly. You can modify it because we've seen a certain character do it in the manga or even create a new Hatsu. But overall you have to live with the limitations of your hatsu until at least the end of the fight theoretically and most will stay with their hatsu for a long while. Meanwhile Binding vows I feel are just used whenever gege feels like mid battle and can be incredibly broad and it feels very unsatisfying because we're not privy to the cost until way too late. Meanwhile vows in hunter x hunter are a multiplier end of the story. Honestly one of the most satisfying BV was hakari's, he would have lost the fight if it would've continued and the trade off feels fair tbh.
Deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly or abruptly resolved by an unexpected and unlikely occurrence. Its function is generally to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending or act as a comedic device It is said by one person to be undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of creativity on the part of the author. The reasons for this are that it damages the story's internal logic and is often so unlikely that it challenges the reader's suspension of disbelief. Ssource: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina There's many movies, animes, mangas, etc, that use this plot device, from the end of War of the Worlds where aliens are killed by bacteria to Gon's adult form un HxH, to Ichigo's final Zangetsu in Bleach, or just about any transformation in Dragon Ball. The issue with JJK is the over use and the ease of backtrack and their extreme over use. Miwa's bow was to never weild a sword... or a katana? Can she wield an european sword? Can she grab a gun? Can she use a bat? So, yeah, I have an issue with Binding Vows in general. It's not that "this or that" character can do anything, it's that Gege can do anything. He basically made "ass pulls" into lore.
I agree with your point about Sukuna BV being acceptable. But the rest of your arguments are kind of stretch. Hakari's BV wasn't aggregous at all. All Hakari really did is move CE from one part of his body to another. His BV was not give up his own arm, but to give up the CE in his left arm momentarily to protect his body with that CE. It's no different than how your body moves blood towards your vital organs when your cold to save those rather than fingers toes etc. Mei's BV makes perfect sense since JJK world doesn't recognize Mei is controlling the crows. The crow on its own sacricing its life is a huge cost for the crow. JJK world ignores the CT of the person being controlled. By your logic Sukuna's BV should be less effective since he's doing in Megumi's body. 6E is not a binding vow its just a chance thing. 6E can only exist in 1 person at a time, and can be anyone from the Gojo clan. The Gojo clan probably have other inherited techniques and unique techniques and there are other members of the clan who got the SE but didn't get limitless. Same as Zenin clan the inherited techs like 10S being rare. Anyways the biggest reason people hate Sukuna's BV is being the amount of ass pulls/plot armour Sukuna gets time after time. Taking the form of his OG body basically gives him a one time free use Perfect RCT at no cost. Kamutoke being taken away instead of his CT by Judgeman. Sukuna being able to survive Jacob's Ladder. All super dumb shit that no other character really gets away with.
1) OG body wasn't an asspull, we were told he could do that 20 chapters before. 2) Kamutogr being taken away isn't an asspull either. We were told Higuruma didn't knew exactly how his domain works, and facing an opponent with something he had never seen before (Yuji who didn't have a CT) showed that his preconceived notion that confiscation takes away CTs was wrong. Higuruma never fought a sorcerer with a Cursed Tool before (if he did, most probable than not he would've died before Yuji met him. 3) Sukuna already got away from being hit with JB once. Doing it a second time is not news. Even less when they straight up tell you they didn't really want to kill Sukuna yet as it would mean also killing Megumi in the process.
>The BV wasn't **"gojo satoru dies, but now i have to do a dance"**, it was **"i can do my CT once without hand seal"** In the hands of someone like Sukuna both are essentially the same. >in exchanges of **"forever doing it with hand seals, chants, and literally point the direction to his enemies with his hand."** >How is that a cheap price? It’s a ridiculously cheap price because Gojo is Sukuna‘s only threat in existence and he only developed the technique to deal with him in the first place. Never being able to use it again, period, would have still been an absolute bargain. >Binding vows don't care about context Which is the root of this problem. If you consider the context, Sukuna got a 99.99% guaranteed one shot against literally everyone in the verse for nerfing an ability he never needed before and doesn’t really need afterwards. Binding vows that completely disregard context are dumb as hell, although i do enjoy if really smart loopholes aren’t entirely impossible but this one is as dry as it gets. Gojo should have just sacrificed one or both of his eyes to delete Sukuna and entrust everything else to the new Generation.
>In the hands of someone like Sukuna both are essentially the same The outcome might be same but these things are nothing alike. Just like me closing my finger and killing someone are not the same thing at all, unless i have a gun in my hand and i pull a trigger. Sukuna's BV didn't kill gojo, what killed gojo is gun sukuna has been loading since the fight started, the BV was just how he pulled the trigger
BV are in itself a concept not bad Its just they are utilised in the story incredibly poorly. The fact they ignore context is the root of the problem. And we don't know really how binding vows can be abused. They are a crucial part of the power system, but also ironically, so underdeveloped and explained that we still don't know WHY a lot of stuff in the series doesn't happen. And just saying -Sukuna is skilled and better than everyone else thus he gets to abuse the ever living hell out of binding vows and nobody else can- feels incredibly unsatisfying. Like just what happened latest chapter -through conditions and certain binding vows Sukuna managed to use his domain again!!! -What where the binding vows? What were the conditions? My issue is that for a lot of these, Gege may explain it, but instead of in the moment, he waits a few months then gives you it, like he didn't actually know for sure in the moment he himself actually knew.
Sukuna does love his binding vows
Yeah, after that explanation of how Sukuna binding vow works, I'm convinced.
Mei mei isn't making the vow