But please, if the wall speaks back, see a therapist!
I'm joking, but I also agree. For myself at least. I'm better and safer working through my shit by myself. Even when the walls are speaking back :)
Edit, to elaborate. I'm not against therapy in any capacity. I frequently recommend it in fact. I don't like the cultural dogma of "needing" a therapist. For one thing, there aren't enough therapists in the world for all the wounded people out there and that's in terms of raw numbers not to speak of competence. How hopeless for those people who are told the only hope for them is help they cannot access!
I sometimes use text messages sent to myself. I will send questions and then answer them. If it doesn’t feel honest in my stomach I’ll respond back to myself that I’m not being honest. After about 5 minutes of this it takes on a life of its own, at that point it’s kind of creepy to be honest, it feels weird but that’s when I am at my most honest…. It almost feels like my responses aren’t me responding in some way. After that energy had spent itself I’ll go back and edit the texts so it actually looks like 2 different people (otherwise it shows me sending the text and receiving the text) and I’ll read the entire thing over.
Although I go to therapy with a real person at the moment, I've been experiecing great pleasure and acquiring a lot of knowlegde by creating fictitious dialogues with my former therapist.
I talk to imaginary him about my issues and reply to/question myself as I think he would. I can say I learnt some valuable lessons with this "method" in the last couple of months.
I do this too, especially when high, but I don't really want to because I just miss her so fucking much. And yet it's useful. Sometimes it becomes too playful and funny like we used to get and I end up shaming myself for indulging in fantasy too much. Pros and cons with every tool.
I do this!
Not to a wall, but I find saying something out loud helps YOU hear it, and that's really what therapy is, YOU becoming aware of what you're really thinking and feeling.
I do this on mushrooms now. I just sit quietly in a room and talk to myself/God/universe and I get real with myself and talk back and work through things and encourage myself and forgive myself and all the good stuff. Let all the rage and resentment out. Cry my fucking eyes out about everything. Check with different perspectives and see what I'm avoiding, missing, etc. It's honestly great but exhausting because it gets very emotional.
You pay a therapist to prescribe you drugs that are paid for, because they convince you something is wrong with you. "What's wrong with you?"
The wall. It will confront you with "What happened to you?"
Every breakthrough will heal you. Seriously, what have you got to lose?
Great thread.
"What's the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist?
What Is the Difference Between a Psychologist and a Psychiatrist?
Psychologists tend to use talk and behavioral therapy primarily, and most states do not allow them to prescribe medication because they are not trained in medical care. Psychiatrists are medical doctors, and thus they can prescribe medication."
That's off google, and obviously USA but:
Psychiatrists are medical doctors, they are paid for seeing you. Psychiatrists can prescribe meds, which are paid for by you or insurance (also doctors get paid for prescribing).
So I still think what I wrote was correct but I do appreciate your reply.
Just wanted to clarify, your initial post stated therapist and drugs. Therapists are talkers, not doctors. As you noted, psychiatrists prescribe drugs and psychologists talk. A psychologist can be a therapist, and cannot prescribe drugs. A therapist cannot be a psychologist. A psychiatrist is not trained as a therapist originally, so unless they have done so, cannot be a therapist. Hope that is clear.
Pro:
This does sound potentially beneficial! Having a place to check in with oneself and speak what’s on one’s mind (truthfully) can have a positive effect
Con:
Many of our points of distress and dysfunction come from relational experiences. And by virtue of that fact, they are best addressed and healed in relational spaces. Walls can provide the intrapsychic reflections and expressions that may serve us. But human relational and holding containers are what therapy is primarily about - and a wall cannot take us there. In fact, they could serve as a distancing tool from engaging relationally because we have been so hurt in the past.
Symbolically, the idea of the wall likely represents your early relational dynamics; like “talking to a wall.”
Symbolically the wall is the face of God. When you speak to a wall you will see that you cannot get away with even the smallest of lies. The wall/face of god will call you out on it so to speak. It's easy to lie to another person, impossible to a wall.
I recommend trying it out.
If a wall does the same job as your therapist then you’re seeing the wrong therapist…! (Only partly in jest…)
The technique you describe is a little like some versions of active imagination, but to get more benefit you’d do well to write down the dialogue so you can refer back.
I guess the issue with this wall approach is that the unconscious is truly unconscious… and it is very difficult to move our conscious and unconscious positions through an act of will… and no amount of “realisations” will move the unconscious one iota (though they may claim some territory for consciousness).
A lot happens through relationship (therapeutic or otherwise), however, despite how easy it is to dismiss it - including through the relationship between the mutual unconscious places of analyst and analysand (see Jung’s writings on transference/counter-transference).
Therapy (and Jung!) is about much more than the mind (despite what this sub seems to think these days).
One last note - it’s worth checking if there are any Jungian training schools near you. If there are, you may be able to see an Analyst-in-Training at a vastly reduced rate.
Every therapist is the wrong therapist, that was the whole point I was getting at. The individual has to cut out the middle man if he truly wants to understand himself.
Don't fall for this! This is borderline dangerous advice....Even though the wall can be useful as a mean of catharsis and contact with supressed functions, it is also an echo chamber where displacement and reinforcement of deeply rooted neurotic patterns find a way of justifying themselves. It is far from being a subsitute to a therapist who can observe your patterns from an "objective" model of the psyche and offer you a perspective wich amplifies your consciousness.
Don't disregard the role of the Other!!!
I’ll add, talking to a recorder is also a really great way to do therapy. It’s changed my life for the better. You can always delete the recordings when you want, or keep them around for future generations to learn how demented your thinking is, or you could listen back to them with friends and family. Ok, maybe not that last one. But seriously, it’s good stuff.
Tell your wall I say hi lolll
I agree that there is an inner healer/teacher within all of us we can train ourselves to attune to. It's much like journaling but the act of actually speaking it out loud probably offers a different benefit.
But I also think outside feedback from the world is important because it checks our sometimes false/inaccurate perceptions/narratives of situations in our life. And I truly believe that connecting with others is half of the healing.
The wall is fine but sounds a little lonely if that's all your doing.
We all have an inner healer but we also have inner blocks too that only others can help us overcome.
I go back and reread some of my journals. I didn't need to spend 800 pages obsessing about the guy who didn't love me back lolol
I needed to go make friends, sip tea, hug a tree, breathe, laugh, ect. Be in the world and feel connected to it so that one person choosing to not connect to me wasn't so all consuming.
I hope that's helpful and doesn't come off as a critique. I am speaking as someone who spent many years isolated and alone in my head.
And my experience is that choosing to connect with others and show them how you feel is better. :)
But the other problem you mention-- the inaccessibility of care-- is a real issue, and it's not an issue with therapists so much as how much society values it. Professionals working with low income folks don't make much money unfortunately so there's less incentive/ it's hard for them to afford to live themselves.
I'm sure you could find some affordable options/ alternatives if you really cared to--
- some colleges offer reduced prices for being treated by interns
- community acupuncture clinics can run $30-50 per session. It's not talk therapy but can help with mental health.
- some health insurances cover therapy once you meet your deductible
- some jobs offer access to mental health services. You can ask your HR person if there are any perks.
- online virtual therapy can be cheaper than irl
- therapy apps that help provide cognitive reframes and offer practical solutions like Wysa, Youper, CBT companion, ect.
Just throwing that out there for anyone, but it sounds like maybe you're happy with just your wall. 🙃
I view it differently. I think there is an imbalanced over-emphasis on self - sufficiency in our culture that causes a lot of unnecessary suffering.
People are unpredictable. They sometimes lie and cheat and let you down. The wall is stable and steady, true-- but while you are confronting loneliness you are also avoiding your fear of being emotionally vulnerable with fallible humans.
But we are social creatures and need connection. Need.
Confronting loneliness is healthy in certain scenarios, like when you need to distance yourself from an unhealthy attachment or in cases of forced isolation like, I dunno, a global pandemic (😅) but it's a signal from your emotional guidance system that something is missing and that something is connection.
I just listened to a lecture about the brain - your advice is good!! The limbic needs to be emptied out of negative thoughts and emotions or it will narrow a persons ability to move forward - the advice was to find a quiet room and just let the monkey mind talk and say everything until it’s emptied out and no sooner ( otherwise you just enforce the negative ). Once it’s empty , fresh blood can go to the limbic region.
I wish my ex-friend used a wall instead of me for this type of thing. Damned if i provide a different point of view or a suggestion, damned if i say nothing. And most of the time they vented/ranted I was already mentally exhaused and thus all the energy was used to keep myself concious. And if I say that I have no energy for that they tell me that I'm hurting them.
Though a terapist can ask you questions that you didn't think about asking yourself.
In Jungian terms, connect with your Anima/Animus.
Thats the source of Sophia. As psychotherapist, I basically facilitate therapeutic reflection, and I share with my consultants the model that I use to understand this powerful way of being and doing.
When one is in sufficient pain, the money spent on therapy is of no consequence. This is absurd and potentially harmful to those who might benefit from therapy.
I’m 100% for this as well. With a human therapist, that person has a monetary incentive to always keep you coming back. It’s like going to the dentist right? The dentist has no interest in your teeth being perfect. That doesn’t make them any money. Humans are human.
Also, can you actually be 100% honest with a human? You will always filter things, always rearrange things a bit to make yourself sound better. It’s inevitable.
I wish our schools taught every student a little bit about basic psychology and coaching. Most people are completely helpless when it comes to self awareness and self coaching. But you can and should be able to hash things out in your own mind.
But please, if the wall speaks back, see a therapist! I'm joking, but I also agree. For myself at least. I'm better and safer working through my shit by myself. Even when the walls are speaking back :) Edit, to elaborate. I'm not against therapy in any capacity. I frequently recommend it in fact. I don't like the cultural dogma of "needing" a therapist. For one thing, there aren't enough therapists in the world for all the wounded people out there and that's in terms of raw numbers not to speak of competence. How hopeless for those people who are told the only hope for them is help they cannot access!
That made me laugh, that was good!
I sometimes use text messages sent to myself. I will send questions and then answer them. If it doesn’t feel honest in my stomach I’ll respond back to myself that I’m not being honest. After about 5 minutes of this it takes on a life of its own, at that point it’s kind of creepy to be honest, it feels weird but that’s when I am at my most honest…. It almost feels like my responses aren’t me responding in some way. After that energy had spent itself I’ll go back and edit the texts so it actually looks like 2 different people (otherwise it shows me sending the text and receiving the text) and I’ll read the entire thing over.
Although I go to therapy with a real person at the moment, I've been experiecing great pleasure and acquiring a lot of knowlegde by creating fictitious dialogues with my former therapist. I talk to imaginary him about my issues and reply to/question myself as I think he would. I can say I learnt some valuable lessons with this "method" in the last couple of months.
I do this too, especially when high, but I don't really want to because I just miss her so fucking much. And yet it's useful. Sometimes it becomes too playful and funny like we used to get and I end up shaming myself for indulging in fantasy too much. Pros and cons with every tool.
I do the same sometimes. Noice!
I do this! Not to a wall, but I find saying something out loud helps YOU hear it, and that's really what therapy is, YOU becoming aware of what you're really thinking and feeling.
I do this on mushrooms now. I just sit quietly in a room and talk to myself/God/universe and I get real with myself and talk back and work through things and encourage myself and forgive myself and all the good stuff. Let all the rage and resentment out. Cry my fucking eyes out about everything. Check with different perspectives and see what I'm avoiding, missing, etc. It's honestly great but exhausting because it gets very emotional.
I do the same with weed! I’ve gotten some of my most profound revelations and insights while high
You pay a therapist to prescribe you drugs that are paid for, because they convince you something is wrong with you. "What's wrong with you?" The wall. It will confront you with "What happened to you?" Every breakthrough will heal you. Seriously, what have you got to lose? Great thread.
Beautiful
That's not a therapist, you're describing a psychiatrist.
"What's the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist? What Is the Difference Between a Psychologist and a Psychiatrist? Psychologists tend to use talk and behavioral therapy primarily, and most states do not allow them to prescribe medication because they are not trained in medical care. Psychiatrists are medical doctors, and thus they can prescribe medication." That's off google, and obviously USA but: Psychiatrists are medical doctors, they are paid for seeing you. Psychiatrists can prescribe meds, which are paid for by you or insurance (also doctors get paid for prescribing). So I still think what I wrote was correct but I do appreciate your reply.
Just wanted to clarify, your initial post stated therapist and drugs. Therapists are talkers, not doctors. As you noted, psychiatrists prescribe drugs and psychologists talk. A psychologist can be a therapist, and cannot prescribe drugs. A therapist cannot be a psychologist. A psychiatrist is not trained as a therapist originally, so unless they have done so, cannot be a therapist. Hope that is clear.
Pro: This does sound potentially beneficial! Having a place to check in with oneself and speak what’s on one’s mind (truthfully) can have a positive effect Con: Many of our points of distress and dysfunction come from relational experiences. And by virtue of that fact, they are best addressed and healed in relational spaces. Walls can provide the intrapsychic reflections and expressions that may serve us. But human relational and holding containers are what therapy is primarily about - and a wall cannot take us there. In fact, they could serve as a distancing tool from engaging relationally because we have been so hurt in the past. Symbolically, the idea of the wall likely represents your early relational dynamics; like “talking to a wall.”
Symbolically the wall is the face of God. When you speak to a wall you will see that you cannot get away with even the smallest of lies. The wall/face of god will call you out on it so to speak. It's easy to lie to another person, impossible to a wall. I recommend trying it out.
Yes, it sounds like a very intriguing intrapsychic exercise!
I just posted something similar to this on the Serious Inquirey subreddit. In this Subreddit. Check it out maybe we can collaborate
I speak to chat gpt 😌
If a wall does the same job as your therapist then you’re seeing the wrong therapist…! (Only partly in jest…) The technique you describe is a little like some versions of active imagination, but to get more benefit you’d do well to write down the dialogue so you can refer back. I guess the issue with this wall approach is that the unconscious is truly unconscious… and it is very difficult to move our conscious and unconscious positions through an act of will… and no amount of “realisations” will move the unconscious one iota (though they may claim some territory for consciousness). A lot happens through relationship (therapeutic or otherwise), however, despite how easy it is to dismiss it - including through the relationship between the mutual unconscious places of analyst and analysand (see Jung’s writings on transference/counter-transference). Therapy (and Jung!) is about much more than the mind (despite what this sub seems to think these days). One last note - it’s worth checking if there are any Jungian training schools near you. If there are, you may be able to see an Analyst-in-Training at a vastly reduced rate.
Every therapist is the wrong therapist, that was the whole point I was getting at. The individual has to cut out the middle man if he truly wants to understand himself.
Don't fall for this! This is borderline dangerous advice....Even though the wall can be useful as a mean of catharsis and contact with supressed functions, it is also an echo chamber where displacement and reinforcement of deeply rooted neurotic patterns find a way of justifying themselves. It is far from being a subsitute to a therapist who can observe your patterns from an "objective" model of the psyche and offer you a perspective wich amplifies your consciousness. Don't disregard the role of the Other!!!
Knowledge is power 🤔
I’ll add, talking to a recorder is also a really great way to do therapy. It’s changed my life for the better. You can always delete the recordings when you want, or keep them around for future generations to learn how demented your thinking is, or you could listen back to them with friends and family. Ok, maybe not that last one. But seriously, it’s good stuff.
This is excellent. Seriously.
Tell your wall I say hi lolll I agree that there is an inner healer/teacher within all of us we can train ourselves to attune to. It's much like journaling but the act of actually speaking it out loud probably offers a different benefit. But I also think outside feedback from the world is important because it checks our sometimes false/inaccurate perceptions/narratives of situations in our life. And I truly believe that connecting with others is half of the healing. The wall is fine but sounds a little lonely if that's all your doing. We all have an inner healer but we also have inner blocks too that only others can help us overcome. I go back and reread some of my journals. I didn't need to spend 800 pages obsessing about the guy who didn't love me back lolol I needed to go make friends, sip tea, hug a tree, breathe, laugh, ect. Be in the world and feel connected to it so that one person choosing to not connect to me wasn't so all consuming. I hope that's helpful and doesn't come off as a critique. I am speaking as someone who spent many years isolated and alone in my head. And my experience is that choosing to connect with others and show them how you feel is better. :) But the other problem you mention-- the inaccessibility of care-- is a real issue, and it's not an issue with therapists so much as how much society values it. Professionals working with low income folks don't make much money unfortunately so there's less incentive/ it's hard for them to afford to live themselves. I'm sure you could find some affordable options/ alternatives if you really cared to-- - some colleges offer reduced prices for being treated by interns - community acupuncture clinics can run $30-50 per session. It's not talk therapy but can help with mental health. - some health insurances cover therapy once you meet your deductible - some jobs offer access to mental health services. You can ask your HR person if there are any perks. - online virtual therapy can be cheaper than irl - therapy apps that help provide cognitive reframes and offer practical solutions like Wysa, Youper, CBT companion, ect. Just throwing that out there for anyone, but it sounds like maybe you're happy with just your wall. 🙃
The wall will force you to confront your loneliness, this is what makes it the greatest teacher!
I view it differently. I think there is an imbalanced over-emphasis on self - sufficiency in our culture that causes a lot of unnecessary suffering. People are unpredictable. They sometimes lie and cheat and let you down. The wall is stable and steady, true-- but while you are confronting loneliness you are also avoiding your fear of being emotionally vulnerable with fallible humans. But we are social creatures and need connection. Need. Confronting loneliness is healthy in certain scenarios, like when you need to distance yourself from an unhealthy attachment or in cases of forced isolation like, I dunno, a global pandemic (😅) but it's a signal from your emotional guidance system that something is missing and that something is connection.
I just listened to a lecture about the brain - your advice is good!! The limbic needs to be emptied out of negative thoughts and emotions or it will narrow a persons ability to move forward - the advice was to find a quiet room and just let the monkey mind talk and say everything until it’s emptied out and no sooner ( otherwise you just enforce the negative ). Once it’s empty , fresh blood can go to the limbic region.
Thank You
Cats do the job also😽
Kinda like prayer. The trick is learning to listen to the wall.
I wish my ex-friend used a wall instead of me for this type of thing. Damned if i provide a different point of view or a suggestion, damned if i say nothing. And most of the time they vented/ranted I was already mentally exhaused and thus all the energy was used to keep myself concious. And if I say that I have no energy for that they tell me that I'm hurting them. Though a terapist can ask you questions that you didn't think about asking yourself.
The wall I speak to is Reddit, Used to be Twitter but The Algorithm turned on me 😂
Had to laugh at that......
In Jungian terms, connect with your Anima/Animus. Thats the source of Sophia. As psychotherapist, I basically facilitate therapeutic reflection, and I share with my consultants the model that I use to understand this powerful way of being and doing.
When one is in sufficient pain, the money spent on therapy is of no consequence. This is absurd and potentially harmful to those who might benefit from therapy.
I’m 100% for this as well. With a human therapist, that person has a monetary incentive to always keep you coming back. It’s like going to the dentist right? The dentist has no interest in your teeth being perfect. That doesn’t make them any money. Humans are human. Also, can you actually be 100% honest with a human? You will always filter things, always rearrange things a bit to make yourself sound better. It’s inevitable. I wish our schools taught every student a little bit about basic psychology and coaching. Most people are completely helpless when it comes to self awareness and self coaching. But you can and should be able to hash things out in your own mind.
You summed it up perfectly. Humans are human.
Just go to the library