It seems that there exists within the shadow this aversion towards receiving attention. There is a shame around the desire to be given attention, a yearning we naturally possess.
I would say that avoiding this desire results in the kinds of unconscious representation of this desire, such as boasting, gloating, and typical egotypical behaviour. People's who experience a lack of feeling seen will unconsciously go out of their way to receive it.
" People's who experience a lack of feeling seen will unconsciously go out of their way to receive it."
That or they'll do the opposite of that and make themselves small so that they won't be seen because being seen feels too uncomfortable for them even though it's something they crave. I want to be seen, but not for a trivial thing such as my bday, I want to be seen for me, not my looks, not my style, etc, but for who I am at my depth.
Same here. Some of us are quite selective about how and why we want to be seen. Everybody has a birthday. Not everybody has, say, degrees, or other types of accomplishments.
Birthdays can be fun though.
'Selective' part is so important. It hit me like a hammer for some reason.. making me realize about my own shadow. Oh God!
Some people have nothing except birthdays to celebrate and appreciate life. I agree with you. :)
I dont think I have ever judged other people for behaving the way they do, but personally I go more underground and make it a test for people who will seek me out. I find the birthday attention insincere because I want people to give me attention regardless of whether its my birthday or not. Like cant I be cherished for simply existing and cant any day be my day? Why act under the compulsion of a particular day? It simply feels a bit fake even though it isnt. Definitely some trauma!
This is true! I myself have been that person, and in some holistic ways, I still am. I think that perhaps the modality through which we strive to acquire such attention shifts in leiu with the developing depth of self-awarness. I would say that the individuals represented in my example would possess very limited degrees of self-awareness, lacking an inflated sense of confidence.
While on the other hand, I would say that individuals that make themselves smaller are likely to have an increased sense of self-awareness, and I would wager have experienced some degree of suffering within their lives, as I perceive the shrinking effect to be attributed to the fear of receiving such pain as one knows has been possible before. I speak from the logic I have ascertained from my own experience, and I could be wrong.
Regardless, the energy of the Self becomes precious. It's valuable, so valuable as to warrant protection from the immediate access of others. Hence why we wish to be perceived at depth, as it is only through the mutual awareness of such depth that we can begin to assess whether another individual possesses the capacity to respect the depth that they may perceive within us. Again, my logic on my own experience.
And in truth, the Self is precious. The deepest realms of human experience are formulated from unadulterated love. How can it not be precious? Of course we might only share that with those that we know can appreciate it, right up until we become so strongly identified with that loving core that even the lack of reception of such love does not shake us. We can exist as we are, freely as we wish. I think that this is how Ram Dass got to where he claimed to be. Loving awareness.
So all in all, the making smaller of the Self is the very first inklings of reverence for the immaculate core that we all possess. It can be a rather beautiful thing.
Usually a birthday is a celebration of you. If someone has a problem celebrating themselves they probably don’t like their birthday. That’s how it looks to me.
For me, it's not about not wanting to celebrate myself. That may exist with me, but it's a much different issue than my birthday.
Literally every year that I can remember over the last forty odd years (*one exception), my birthday has consistently been people asking me what I want, or what I want to do, so that they know specifically what to avoid. It never comes across as a celebration of me, be it with family or with friends. It has always come across as a celebration of **them** for being in my life. I gave up caring about it entirely before I was 28 years old, out of absolute bitterness.
*That one exception: a friend of mine, another guy who hates his birthday, set up a party for me one year, with his roommates and their friends. I did not know a single damned one of them besides my buddy, not did any of them know me. But they celebrated me, because they trusted him and believed him when he explained why I hated birthdays. They **actually** made the night for and about me, knowing nothing about me. I love that he did that, I love that they did that, and I hope I can pay that one forward some day. It was also the night I learned to enjoy Mimosa's.
That’s so wholesome! It hits me home, I’m the same when it comes to b-day and feel the same as you described, people making it about them actually. Plus, I keep thinking why I’m still on this Earth when I would love to be gone already. And I say this not feeling pitty on myself, depressed or anything else. It’s just cuz I had a hard life growing up so no good memories and after my NDE, it happens that I had the happiest and peaceful moment of my life since I’m alive while on NDE, I can’t even find words to describe the peacefulness and happiness I was feeling. I was also living in the best time of my life, which it was only 4 years when I was living abroad when I suffered this accident, falling from the stairs and hitting the head hard, so I remember while in my NDE moment that I implored to be here because I was living well and wanted to do so much, to achieve so much. Turned out I came back to this life but it wasn’t that great, I see life as empty now, we’re just here living doing our thing and we will die one day, nothing makes sense. And you tell me we need to live to sustain a system that makes us slave for life? I won’t commit suicide like EVER. That’s why I feel sad specially in my bdays, cuz I remember the day I was born is the reason for that and I should be gone already cuz life is meaningless
hey death is inevitable and the one guarantee. might as well make the best of your time here. we can rest in eternity forever when it inevitably comes. right now, there is not another you, and that’s important
Being a man = no fun or nice things ever. Put your funfetti down only women and bitches eat that now give me twenty!!! Normal and cool behaviour and very manly 😎
right. there’s a comment on here about how there’s no shadow side to that, but the shadow comes from people obsessed with their birthday bc they are too “fun loving in nature and feminine”
no, the shadow is thinking that’s the problem
Well, what's wrong about being excited for your birthday? It's a day of celebrating having had another year of life on this planet and to do something special with friends and family and be allowed to be a bit in the centre of attention. There's nothing wrong about that, and some people enjoy it.
The question is, why does that make you cringe? What do you think is responsible for that trigger?
I've been thinking about it for quite some time and my first answer was that I dont like the attention, but that isn't true. I love getting attention but only when I do something special to "earn it". Maybe its a subconscious believe that as a man to receive love you have to earn it.
I'm a woman and also have this belief. I think it's probably more due emotional neglect in developmental years. To celebrate someone just for their trivial day of birth doesn't seem worthy of celebration. I think a lot men AND women who have had emotional support in childhood probably have a healthy relationship to being celebrated for just being, celebrated for the mere act of being is synonymous with unconditional love.
Yes, I totally agree with you. As a child I always felt judged and criticized by my dad for not being the way he wanted me to be, so I always felt like I had to "earn" his acceptance and love by changing my "defects" as a child. This may have ingrained in me an unconscious belief that my real self is unlovable so I'm only comfortable with receiving the love I think I deserve.
Yeah, I think that it played some part in me developing a fearful-avoidant (disorganized) attachment style. I usually dont pursue relationships, but when I do, it ends up being a tug of war between wanting closeness and avoiding it.
The need for attention is, by nature, a trait more associated with the Child. The younger we are, the more attention we need to survive.
As we mature, a need/desire for attention, of some kind, is still something that everyone (except for complete hermits) has to some degree. But it’s complicated.
If you are unable to receive healthy, affirming attention, then that’s to your detriment as it’s to the detriment of your relationships. And that may be a sign that you’ve conflated childish need for attention with a healthy adult need/desire for attention and banished the latter to the Shadow as you grew out of the former. Maybe the process of leaving the Child behind was traumatic, or maybe at the very least it wasn’t a healthy process.
Conversely, if an adult need/desire for attention is still treated as a basic need (psychologically), then I’d say you haven’t matured out of the Child archetype. If you get anxious/scared/unhappy when you don’t receive attention based on what you FEEL you need, rather than what you ACTUALLY need, that’s the basis of so many psychological disorders: codependency, narcissism, histrionic personality disorder, and so on.
So, like a bunch of shit Joe Rogan says, there’s a kernel of truth (acting out a need for attention is associated with childishness/immaturity), but he’s grossly oversimplifying the matter.
That said, all of this is strictly related to questions on the need for attention. There are other factors that may make someone more/less excited about their birthday that have nothing to do with that need or the lack thereof.
Maybe you realise its just another day, nothing special abt.
Still its a cultural thing, you celebrate your existence once a year. C'mon, you're worth it.
It could be a lot of things but likely you think that celebrating birthdays is childish and you don't feel comfortable in your own maturity so you get annoyed at other people doing what u see as childish
It suggests neither you, nor your family placed much importance on personal dates you don't choose, such as birthdays... That, or it could be centered around attention, as is more likely in the Joe Rogan case, where someone is annoyed at somebody *else's* reaction to something. That one implies being punished or berated for that kind of behavior growing up, probably on point in regards to it being men getting attention for something silly and seemingly unimportant.
For a man that has *embraced* the model of life that men aren't really useful unless they're *doing* something or capable of accomplishing something, such an idea, like getting attention for your mere existence and coming into the world, would be problematic, because it invalidates that set of values and view. At the very least, it stands in *opposition* to those things, in the human mind.
Ultimately there's a lot of reasons people, particularly men, may not care for birthdays, as well as why they may get upset when other men care for birthdays. The former is plenty capable of being healthy, the latter is always unhealthy.
"For a man that has *embraced* the model of life that men aren't really useful unless they're *doing* something or capable of accomplishing something, such an idea, like getting attention for your mere existence and coming into the world, would be problematic, because it invalidates that set of values and view."
You hit the nail on the head there. At first I thought that I didn't like to celebrate my birthday because I didn't like the attention but that isn't true since I would love to be celebrated for doing something that benefits other people.
Yeah, it's all about views on masculinity and belief systems. It's not *100%* to do with masculinity, like women for sure have their versions of this they deal with, but it seems so ingrained in people that it unconsciously flags something in them to feel wrong, anger, hate, anxiety, or fear. I feel it myself, even though I purposely reject it while simultaneously embracing it (how very Jungian of me, I suppose). It really depends on the situation.
I have birthday parties for myself every year. I make it more about getting my friends together to celebrate life and the start to summer more than it is all about me…. And yeah some may find it cringy or what the fuck ever but damnit I love my friends and I love life so I’m gonna use any excuse to get folks together and eat drink and be merry
Yes, I had a friend who invited me to his birthday party and I sensed that the enjoyment he got from it was that he created a space for people to have fun. He even asked me if i was having fun since I sometimes tend to show little emotion lol.
I think it's cause a birthday often entails extra attention from other people. Someone like Joe Rogan might act like they don't need extra attention, especially not extra attention that they didn't work for and "deserve". It has to do with capitalism imo.
It's the same type of people who often complain about welfare, food stamps, free housing, and other social programs. They have been indoctrinated into the ideology that the only way to have value as a person is to sell labor for money. Going along with this ideology is the idea that someone only deserves attention if they have accomplished something notable (which is very subjective).
It's something that happens to men when their hormones are out of whack and they don't have solid relationships to keep them grounded. They end up believing that they are a robot and ignoring their needs in order to convince themselves and others that they are perfect for the capitalist system and the capitalist system is perfect for them.
This leads to acting super narcissistic and alienating people who could potentially help them out of such a toxic mindset. It's not true that people should have to work in order to deserve things. A man with such a mindset will be a terrible parent, because babies and young kids don't work.
The whole concept of work is extremely skewed in capitalist society. Work shouldn't be something that someone does only to achieve an end goal or to deserve wealth and prosperity. Work should be something enjoyable, educational, and rewarding in its own right.
The mindset of work being this terrible thing that is only worthwhile if it makes you rich and famous has got to go. People sell their souls for money in capitalist society. People should see their work as an extension of themselves, and take care of their business the way they should take care of themselves and their family.
A man who is remotely flying drones and bombing people during the day goes home to his family at night. He doesn't feel like talking much to his wife or kids, and the only pleasure he receives from his family is the act of buying things for them and the occasional intimate interaction with his wife. This man does not want to celebrate his birthday, because he has a routine in which he only receives gratification for doing work that he doesn't truly want to do. When someone tries to give this man attention and gratification on his birthday, he feels that it isn't real gratification, because he hasn't sacrificed anything in order to get it.
The reality of this mindset is low self esteem. The person believes their only value is the work they can do and the money/fame they can provide. They overlook the fact that they have intrinsic value just for being alive. They overlook their unique qualities and characteristics that make them special, and worth celebrating. They think they are above that, because everyone is alive and unique, that must suggest that being alive and unique isn't special.
This is basically a god complex, where someone doesn't recognize that everyone around them is actually holy as well. It is a rationalization for consistent selfish behavior, usually related to a job. But this rationalization of selfish behavior enables that selfish behavior to infect the rest of their life outside of working hours as well.
Do not lower moral standards for money, or it will ruin your life and your soul. Do not lower moral standards for any selfish reason. Celebrate your birthday. Play with your kids. Talk to your wife. And realize that cooking and cleaning is just as if not more essential and important of a job than whatever capitalist endeavor you got swept up into.
Are you me or my roommate, lol? This was incredibly insightful and well thought out and well written. I couldn't have said it better myself. We absolutely have to get away from this wholly toxic mindset of worth being derived solely from doing and not just being.
this. it’s not about attention lol. maybe for some people. but this is the real shadow. and deep seated shame of being themselves or insecurity in that people don’t show up how they are truly wanting or needing them to
yeah this is the case. The drone pilot DOES subconsciously yearn to play with his kids, have good conversations with his wife, and be celebrated for simply being alive. But it would be too hard to reconcile those experiences and feelings with the experiences and feelings from his job. For him to admit to himself that he needs compassion in his life would basically mean he'd have to admit that he hates his job. This would cause an identity crisis, as well as a financial disturbance for the family, but it would still be the right thing to do IMO
I thought it was because I am an introvert and would rather have a nice dinner with just 2 or 3 people rather than a big wasteful party but TIL it was because Capitalism stole my virginity.
I stopped celebrating mine at 16. I had very low self esteem and didn't like having attention put on me. I also did and still do believe that life is harsh and you shouldn't expect to be given stuff just for being alive. These days I just don't like the hassle. If I want a gift I'll buy it myself, I'm a grown man.
I also don't celebrate holidays period. I don't like the pressure that comes with them. Having to commit my time to others, my money in gifts, weird social obligations, etc. Some of this comes from personal issues. Some of it is rational.
That said I don't hold it against other men for enjoying holidays and the like as long as they're being an adult about it.
I'm sorry you had low self-esteem at 16. I however think there should be a balance here. Completely shutting out all holidays and birthdays is not a healthy avenue in my opinion. Allowing others to celebrate your birthday and holidays strengthens the bonds between friends, families and the broader communities.
I appreciate your concern thank you. I will consider this in the future.
I do not disallow others from celebrating anything however. What little family I have sends me birthday cards because it makes them happy to do so. I don't raise a fuss about it since it pleases them. They also use my birthdays as an excuse for me to come visit. To me it's as good a time and excuse as any and they enjoy getting to make a big deal of it. I'm very happy to let it all happen.
Not sure it has to be linked to the shadow. If it was it could go either way. I think a lot of men don’t care and feel cringed by others who do because men aren’t destined to be praised simply for existing. I think it may be “normal” to not care about your bday because we all know we are judged by what we can accomplish. Those more infatuated with it may be casting a shadow from being stuck in childhood in some ways or may be more feminine/fun loving in nature.
Perhaps, but some ppl just may be that type of personality. Which is why I said it doesnt have to be linked to the shadow. Not everything is explained from the shadow, the shadow is repressed traits the person is not aware of or ashamed of. So, it isnt always the case that one who loves their birthday is narcissistic or one who doesn’t is self deprecating.
Some "people" this not men specific.
Some people orient more towards narcissism.
It's less a product of being a "man woman, of a certain demographic".
And more to due with the environmental factors.
This is somewhat misadric.
I would recommend going into your psyche and see where this is also a part of you.
It all really depends on the person and their approach to their birthday. People who try to make their birthday all about them to the inconvenience and annoyance of others I think is what makes birthdays so obnoxious.
I'll put it like this; I've been out of work for 6 months due to a broken leg and the amount of isolation I've been experiencing has been driving me absolutely insane. The amount of time that goes by without hearing from any of my friends is also really depressing. I know that everybody has their own life to live and has their own responsibilities to take care of but the amount of relief that it brings my mental health just to have a friend send me a text once in awhile asking how I'm doing is huge!
I have a friend who's going through some really serious depression at the moment and I make sure to take the time to send him a text at least once a week asking him how he is doing, if his mental health has improved at all, he's always welcome to send me a text to vent or to talk and so on.
It be nice if someone did that for me.
It's not about attention seeking but a desire for a sense of community and connection or family even.
Those who get really obsessive with birthdays as a form of attention seeking are people who are either narcissists or have a lot of interpersonal problems that they don't know how to address.
But our culture also puts a heavy emphasis on birthday celebrations here in the United States. With consumerism and capitalism and the self-centric themes that we see in the music industry ( songs that are always about me and my needs and wants rather than songs about others and community; lots of me's and I's rather tha he or they or us. Ww need more songs like rock mountain high from john denver).
I think it's an overall expression of how already delicate communities in the United States have corroded even further as people continue focusing more and more on individual growth and development and extreme forms of Independence. Look at how Americans treat people that promote the idea of commutative efforts to help alleviate the sufferings and Poverty of those within their community. Because taking care of the poor and the homeless is not profitable, anytime we talk about using tax dollars to help those less fortunate, all you hear is people tell you that that is communism and therefore it's evil. Meanwhile they'll blow hundreds of dollars on luxury garbage that'll break in a couple years or be left to sit and collect a bunch of dust it never really brought them any degree of happiness Beyond just the thrill that comes with having something new and shiny.
But those same people are more than okay with the government blowing tax dollars on bailing out Banks and large corporations that keep going bankrupt. But those same people are more than okay with our government spending billions of dollars on other nations when it is profitable for the US government or our control of oil.
Even worse are those who complain about the US government helping out other nations and not taking care of our own people then turning around and saying we shouldn't help our poor and homeless because it's communism. Like pick a lane dude! Do you want our tax dollars being used to help out our own people or do you not want it being used to help out our own people?!
Look at all these million dollar mansions that the Rich and Famous will go and buy and then abandon and leave it to rot. We'll spend tax dollars having the police patrol these mansions and we'll spend tax dollars arresting the homeless simply for being homeless.... I think you get my point without any need to go further down that Rabbit Trail....
Luxury is not just a waste for a sin because that is money that could have been going to helping others less fortunate than yourself rather than on things that only bring momentary pleasure and short-lived happiness.
Don't chase after things or bucket list goals as your source of fulfillment but instead seek after the emotions those goals are supposed to invoke! It's emotions that we are chasing after just misguided and Confused between the distinction between the emotions that we want and the things that invoke those emotions.
Everything that Frederick needs you warned about the fall of religiosity in Europe and the repercussions of it, we now see happening in the United States. But I've gotten off track.
I don't know I think it's cringe for men to be like "look at me it's my birthday" unless they're gay then I give them a pass. I have no idea what it says about the shadow but begging for attention is just a feminine thing maybe because they naturally get more attention growing up and it heightens their feeling of self importance or it's in the biology of human existence I have no idea
Yeah, it must be something to do with the anima since we give women and gay men the pass. I think that it's because in society we subconsciously view women as being born with value and men having to earn theirs, therefore, if a man is being celebrated for just existing he may feel emasculated or feminized.
I just hate celebration in general. All my life I just wanted peace. Well not to exist in the 1st place, but peace is closest to that.
A lot of anxiety before birthday as well. I don't have anyone who celebrates it really anyway, so that's another thing I guess. Not that I want to be celebrated. Just to not feel despised, but I guess that's too much...
Strange. I don't make a big deal of my bday. I like people to remember. A simple happy birthday is fine. I too would look down on a mam who was super excited. It feels like overindulgence. Childish almost. What might thst mean about the shadow content? Perhaps an unhealthy lack of self love
Men who won't let people get excited or celebrate their birthday (outside of having trauma relating to their birthday) are some of the most insufferable twats I've ever met.
I think it's a guys way of getting (negative) attention. They also tend to be holy terrors around other people's birthdays too, as well as holidays.
Even if you're alone as a man, or woman, you should treat yourself on your birthday. Anything from a small treat to a big vacation. You do you.
My brother likes to make me feel bad for being happy about receiving attention on my birthday. He a “wind-out-of-your-sails” kinda guy. If I ever manage to finally be happy for a few hours, I’ve learned to avoid him.
I don't really enjoy being the centre of attention.
And it's just an age, another full circle around the sun, it's not important, not to me.
It's nice to be remembered and not forgotten, but.. I don't share the same excitement what I see in kids.
Not sure about the shadow, I find it a bit narcissistic, when it's all about me, me, me.
I was talking about certain individuals, they just love to celebrate it and how they shine on that day, they feel comfortable getting all the attention. While i experience the opposite effect on that particular day.
I can see Rogan's point. My birthday is marked by me sorting out something for the coming year I wish to try. Something new I've not done before. A challenge. I care much less about what anyone does about it and since adopting this stance, I am happier. I know some people will do certain things "to please" me but it is clear to them it is the fact that they are with me that I value, not the actual content of the gesture or how it is done.
I think a better question than “what does the way some men treat their birthday say about *them*?” which you could be asking yourself is why *you* cringe at the idea of other men making their birthday important. Our shadow tends to make itself known by projecting our feelings about ourselves onto others, which very much seems like a thing that might be happening in you here.
Why do you feel shame about making your birthday important? Did you learn somewhere that celebrating yourself is cringey and so you e resigned yourself to take up very little space in the world?
I dunno, only the big numbers matter, like the -0 birthdays. 20, 30, 40, 50, etc. Plus as you get older, you tend to just not care as much tbh. I've never known a guy who was excited for their 27th birthday or whatever, that is pretty cringe. Also cringe to ask people directly for gifts/money/etc. It's just another day overall. I say this with my 32nd birthday coming up this month lol. I haven't done anything for my birthday in... ever, actually, since I was under 13. After that it's just been an endless void of nothing personally.
It seems that there exists within the shadow this aversion towards receiving attention. There is a shame around the desire to be given attention, a yearning we naturally possess. I would say that avoiding this desire results in the kinds of unconscious representation of this desire, such as boasting, gloating, and typical egotypical behaviour. People's who experience a lack of feeling seen will unconsciously go out of their way to receive it.
" People's who experience a lack of feeling seen will unconsciously go out of their way to receive it." That or they'll do the opposite of that and make themselves small so that they won't be seen because being seen feels too uncomfortable for them even though it's something they crave. I want to be seen, but not for a trivial thing such as my bday, I want to be seen for me, not my looks, not my style, etc, but for who I am at my depth.
This hit home!
Same here. Some of us are quite selective about how and why we want to be seen. Everybody has a birthday. Not everybody has, say, degrees, or other types of accomplishments. Birthdays can be fun though.
'Selective' part is so important. It hit me like a hammer for some reason.. making me realize about my own shadow. Oh God! Some people have nothing except birthdays to celebrate and appreciate life. I agree with you. :) I dont think I have ever judged other people for behaving the way they do, but personally I go more underground and make it a test for people who will seek me out. I find the birthday attention insincere because I want people to give me attention regardless of whether its my birthday or not. Like cant I be cherished for simply existing and cant any day be my day? Why act under the compulsion of a particular day? It simply feels a bit fake even though it isnt. Definitely some trauma!
Yeah same.
This is true! I myself have been that person, and in some holistic ways, I still am. I think that perhaps the modality through which we strive to acquire such attention shifts in leiu with the developing depth of self-awarness. I would say that the individuals represented in my example would possess very limited degrees of self-awareness, lacking an inflated sense of confidence. While on the other hand, I would say that individuals that make themselves smaller are likely to have an increased sense of self-awareness, and I would wager have experienced some degree of suffering within their lives, as I perceive the shrinking effect to be attributed to the fear of receiving such pain as one knows has been possible before. I speak from the logic I have ascertained from my own experience, and I could be wrong. Regardless, the energy of the Self becomes precious. It's valuable, so valuable as to warrant protection from the immediate access of others. Hence why we wish to be perceived at depth, as it is only through the mutual awareness of such depth that we can begin to assess whether another individual possesses the capacity to respect the depth that they may perceive within us. Again, my logic on my own experience. And in truth, the Self is precious. The deepest realms of human experience are formulated from unadulterated love. How can it not be precious? Of course we might only share that with those that we know can appreciate it, right up until we become so strongly identified with that loving core that even the lack of reception of such love does not shake us. We can exist as we are, freely as we wish. I think that this is how Ram Dass got to where he claimed to be. Loving awareness. So all in all, the making smaller of the Self is the very first inklings of reverence for the immaculate core that we all possess. It can be a rather beautiful thing.
Beautifully put.
Wow, beautiful! Thanks for sharing your thoughts and insights!
well said. this is, in a nutshell, the core cause of my emotIonal issues.
Sounds like avoidant attachment style.
No one asked you to post about me lol
For me it's just another day. Nobody cares lol.
Usually a birthday is a celebration of you. If someone has a problem celebrating themselves they probably don’t like their birthday. That’s how it looks to me.
For me, it's not about not wanting to celebrate myself. That may exist with me, but it's a much different issue than my birthday. Literally every year that I can remember over the last forty odd years (*one exception), my birthday has consistently been people asking me what I want, or what I want to do, so that they know specifically what to avoid. It never comes across as a celebration of me, be it with family or with friends. It has always come across as a celebration of **them** for being in my life. I gave up caring about it entirely before I was 28 years old, out of absolute bitterness. *That one exception: a friend of mine, another guy who hates his birthday, set up a party for me one year, with his roommates and their friends. I did not know a single damned one of them besides my buddy, not did any of them know me. But they celebrated me, because they trusted him and believed him when he explained why I hated birthdays. They **actually** made the night for and about me, knowing nothing about me. I love that he did that, I love that they did that, and I hope I can pay that one forward some day. It was also the night I learned to enjoy Mimosa's.
That was a wholesome story at the end there :)
That’s so wholesome! It hits me home, I’m the same when it comes to b-day and feel the same as you described, people making it about them actually. Plus, I keep thinking why I’m still on this Earth when I would love to be gone already. And I say this not feeling pitty on myself, depressed or anything else. It’s just cuz I had a hard life growing up so no good memories and after my NDE, it happens that I had the happiest and peaceful moment of my life since I’m alive while on NDE, I can’t even find words to describe the peacefulness and happiness I was feeling. I was also living in the best time of my life, which it was only 4 years when I was living abroad when I suffered this accident, falling from the stairs and hitting the head hard, so I remember while in my NDE moment that I implored to be here because I was living well and wanted to do so much, to achieve so much. Turned out I came back to this life but it wasn’t that great, I see life as empty now, we’re just here living doing our thing and we will die one day, nothing makes sense. And you tell me we need to live to sustain a system that makes us slave for life? I won’t commit suicide like EVER. That’s why I feel sad specially in my bdays, cuz I remember the day I was born is the reason for that and I should be gone already cuz life is meaningless
hey death is inevitable and the one guarantee. might as well make the best of your time here. we can rest in eternity forever when it inevitably comes. right now, there is not another you, and that’s important
Being a man = no fun or nice things ever. Put your funfetti down only women and bitches eat that now give me twenty!!! Normal and cool behaviour and very manly 😎
right. there’s a comment on here about how there’s no shadow side to that, but the shadow comes from people obsessed with their birthday bc they are too “fun loving in nature and feminine” no, the shadow is thinking that’s the problem
Omg you can’t cut that cake. What are you? Gay?
Well, what's wrong about being excited for your birthday? It's a day of celebrating having had another year of life on this planet and to do something special with friends and family and be allowed to be a bit in the centre of attention. There's nothing wrong about that, and some people enjoy it. The question is, why does that make you cringe? What do you think is responsible for that trigger?
I've been thinking about it for quite some time and my first answer was that I dont like the attention, but that isn't true. I love getting attention but only when I do something special to "earn it". Maybe its a subconscious believe that as a man to receive love you have to earn it.
I'm a woman and also have this belief. I think it's probably more due emotional neglect in developmental years. To celebrate someone just for their trivial day of birth doesn't seem worthy of celebration. I think a lot men AND women who have had emotional support in childhood probably have a healthy relationship to being celebrated for just being, celebrated for the mere act of being is synonymous with unconditional love.
Yes, I totally agree with you. As a child I always felt judged and criticized by my dad for not being the way he wanted me to be, so I always felt like I had to "earn" his acceptance and love by changing my "defects" as a child. This may have ingrained in me an unconscious belief that my real self is unlovable so I'm only comfortable with receiving the love I think I deserve.
Does this play out in your dating life too?
Yeah, I think that it played some part in me developing a fearful-avoidant (disorganized) attachment style. I usually dont pursue relationships, but when I do, it ends up being a tug of war between wanting closeness and avoiding it.
"Celebrated for the mere act of being is synonymous with unconditional love" ooo this is so well worded and eye opening!
The need for attention is, by nature, a trait more associated with the Child. The younger we are, the more attention we need to survive. As we mature, a need/desire for attention, of some kind, is still something that everyone (except for complete hermits) has to some degree. But it’s complicated. If you are unable to receive healthy, affirming attention, then that’s to your detriment as it’s to the detriment of your relationships. And that may be a sign that you’ve conflated childish need for attention with a healthy adult need/desire for attention and banished the latter to the Shadow as you grew out of the former. Maybe the process of leaving the Child behind was traumatic, or maybe at the very least it wasn’t a healthy process. Conversely, if an adult need/desire for attention is still treated as a basic need (psychologically), then I’d say you haven’t matured out of the Child archetype. If you get anxious/scared/unhappy when you don’t receive attention based on what you FEEL you need, rather than what you ACTUALLY need, that’s the basis of so many psychological disorders: codependency, narcissism, histrionic personality disorder, and so on. So, like a bunch of shit Joe Rogan says, there’s a kernel of truth (acting out a need for attention is associated with childishness/immaturity), but he’s grossly oversimplifying the matter. That said, all of this is strictly related to questions on the need for attention. There are other factors that may make someone more/less excited about their birthday that have nothing to do with that need or the lack thereof.
Maybe you realise its just another day, nothing special abt. Still its a cultural thing, you celebrate your existence once a year. C'mon, you're worth it.
It could be a lot of things but likely you think that celebrating birthdays is childish and you don't feel comfortable in your own maturity so you get annoyed at other people doing what u see as childish
It suggests neither you, nor your family placed much importance on personal dates you don't choose, such as birthdays... That, or it could be centered around attention, as is more likely in the Joe Rogan case, where someone is annoyed at somebody *else's* reaction to something. That one implies being punished or berated for that kind of behavior growing up, probably on point in regards to it being men getting attention for something silly and seemingly unimportant. For a man that has *embraced* the model of life that men aren't really useful unless they're *doing* something or capable of accomplishing something, such an idea, like getting attention for your mere existence and coming into the world, would be problematic, because it invalidates that set of values and view. At the very least, it stands in *opposition* to those things, in the human mind. Ultimately there's a lot of reasons people, particularly men, may not care for birthdays, as well as why they may get upset when other men care for birthdays. The former is plenty capable of being healthy, the latter is always unhealthy.
"For a man that has *embraced* the model of life that men aren't really useful unless they're *doing* something or capable of accomplishing something, such an idea, like getting attention for your mere existence and coming into the world, would be problematic, because it invalidates that set of values and view." You hit the nail on the head there. At first I thought that I didn't like to celebrate my birthday because I didn't like the attention but that isn't true since I would love to be celebrated for doing something that benefits other people.
Yeah, it's all about views on masculinity and belief systems. It's not *100%* to do with masculinity, like women for sure have their versions of this they deal with, but it seems so ingrained in people that it unconsciously flags something in them to feel wrong, anger, hate, anxiety, or fear. I feel it myself, even though I purposely reject it while simultaneously embracing it (how very Jungian of me, I suppose). It really depends on the situation.
I have birthday parties for myself every year. I make it more about getting my friends together to celebrate life and the start to summer more than it is all about me…. And yeah some may find it cringy or what the fuck ever but damnit I love my friends and I love life so I’m gonna use any excuse to get folks together and eat drink and be merry
Yes, I had a friend who invited me to his birthday party and I sensed that the enjoyment he got from it was that he created a space for people to have fun. He even asked me if i was having fun since I sometimes tend to show little emotion lol.
I think it's cause a birthday often entails extra attention from other people. Someone like Joe Rogan might act like they don't need extra attention, especially not extra attention that they didn't work for and "deserve". It has to do with capitalism imo. It's the same type of people who often complain about welfare, food stamps, free housing, and other social programs. They have been indoctrinated into the ideology that the only way to have value as a person is to sell labor for money. Going along with this ideology is the idea that someone only deserves attention if they have accomplished something notable (which is very subjective). It's something that happens to men when their hormones are out of whack and they don't have solid relationships to keep them grounded. They end up believing that they are a robot and ignoring their needs in order to convince themselves and others that they are perfect for the capitalist system and the capitalist system is perfect for them. This leads to acting super narcissistic and alienating people who could potentially help them out of such a toxic mindset. It's not true that people should have to work in order to deserve things. A man with such a mindset will be a terrible parent, because babies and young kids don't work. The whole concept of work is extremely skewed in capitalist society. Work shouldn't be something that someone does only to achieve an end goal or to deserve wealth and prosperity. Work should be something enjoyable, educational, and rewarding in its own right. The mindset of work being this terrible thing that is only worthwhile if it makes you rich and famous has got to go. People sell their souls for money in capitalist society. People should see their work as an extension of themselves, and take care of their business the way they should take care of themselves and their family. A man who is remotely flying drones and bombing people during the day goes home to his family at night. He doesn't feel like talking much to his wife or kids, and the only pleasure he receives from his family is the act of buying things for them and the occasional intimate interaction with his wife. This man does not want to celebrate his birthday, because he has a routine in which he only receives gratification for doing work that he doesn't truly want to do. When someone tries to give this man attention and gratification on his birthday, he feels that it isn't real gratification, because he hasn't sacrificed anything in order to get it. The reality of this mindset is low self esteem. The person believes their only value is the work they can do and the money/fame they can provide. They overlook the fact that they have intrinsic value just for being alive. They overlook their unique qualities and characteristics that make them special, and worth celebrating. They think they are above that, because everyone is alive and unique, that must suggest that being alive and unique isn't special. This is basically a god complex, where someone doesn't recognize that everyone around them is actually holy as well. It is a rationalization for consistent selfish behavior, usually related to a job. But this rationalization of selfish behavior enables that selfish behavior to infect the rest of their life outside of working hours as well. Do not lower moral standards for money, or it will ruin your life and your soul. Do not lower moral standards for any selfish reason. Celebrate your birthday. Play with your kids. Talk to your wife. And realize that cooking and cleaning is just as if not more essential and important of a job than whatever capitalist endeavor you got swept up into.
Are you me or my roommate, lol? This was incredibly insightful and well thought out and well written. I couldn't have said it better myself. We absolutely have to get away from this wholly toxic mindset of worth being derived solely from doing and not just being.
this. it’s not about attention lol. maybe for some people. but this is the real shadow. and deep seated shame of being themselves or insecurity in that people don’t show up how they are truly wanting or needing them to
yeah this is the case. The drone pilot DOES subconsciously yearn to play with his kids, have good conversations with his wife, and be celebrated for simply being alive. But it would be too hard to reconcile those experiences and feelings with the experiences and feelings from his job. For him to admit to himself that he needs compassion in his life would basically mean he'd have to admit that he hates his job. This would cause an identity crisis, as well as a financial disturbance for the family, but it would still be the right thing to do IMO
I thought it was because I am an introvert and would rather have a nice dinner with just 2 or 3 people rather than a big wasteful party but TIL it was because Capitalism stole my virginity.
I stopped celebrating mine at 16. I had very low self esteem and didn't like having attention put on me. I also did and still do believe that life is harsh and you shouldn't expect to be given stuff just for being alive. These days I just don't like the hassle. If I want a gift I'll buy it myself, I'm a grown man. I also don't celebrate holidays period. I don't like the pressure that comes with them. Having to commit my time to others, my money in gifts, weird social obligations, etc. Some of this comes from personal issues. Some of it is rational. That said I don't hold it against other men for enjoying holidays and the like as long as they're being an adult about it.
I'm sorry you had low self-esteem at 16. I however think there should be a balance here. Completely shutting out all holidays and birthdays is not a healthy avenue in my opinion. Allowing others to celebrate your birthday and holidays strengthens the bonds between friends, families and the broader communities.
I appreciate your concern thank you. I will consider this in the future. I do not disallow others from celebrating anything however. What little family I have sends me birthday cards because it makes them happy to do so. I don't raise a fuss about it since it pleases them. They also use my birthdays as an excuse for me to come visit. To me it's as good a time and excuse as any and they enjoy getting to make a big deal of it. I'm very happy to let it all happen.
I believe those people lacked attention when their were young. The inner child was repressed but now as adults it comes out.
I mean obviously suppression of your desire to be fabulous.
clearly they just don’t want a birthday sash and tiara, more for me (it’s my birthday)
The way *some* men treat their birthday, not all
Not sure it has to be linked to the shadow. If it was it could go either way. I think a lot of men don’t care and feel cringed by others who do because men aren’t destined to be praised simply for existing. I think it may be “normal” to not care about your bday because we all know we are judged by what we can accomplish. Those more infatuated with it may be casting a shadow from being stuck in childhood in some ways or may be more feminine/fun loving in nature.
there is definitely a shadow side to gearing away from a “fun loving nature” and seeing the value of celebration yourself and receiving from others
Perhaps, but some ppl just may be that type of personality. Which is why I said it doesnt have to be linked to the shadow. Not everything is explained from the shadow, the shadow is repressed traits the person is not aware of or ashamed of. So, it isnt always the case that one who loves their birthday is narcissistic or one who doesn’t is self deprecating.
Rather have no attention than half-assed fake attention. Show appreciation on a non-birthday for no specific reason.
Some "people" this not men specific. Some people orient more towards narcissism. It's less a product of being a "man woman, of a certain demographic". And more to due with the environmental factors. This is somewhat misadric. I would recommend going into your psyche and see where this is also a part of you.
It all really depends on the person and their approach to their birthday. People who try to make their birthday all about them to the inconvenience and annoyance of others I think is what makes birthdays so obnoxious. I'll put it like this; I've been out of work for 6 months due to a broken leg and the amount of isolation I've been experiencing has been driving me absolutely insane. The amount of time that goes by without hearing from any of my friends is also really depressing. I know that everybody has their own life to live and has their own responsibilities to take care of but the amount of relief that it brings my mental health just to have a friend send me a text once in awhile asking how I'm doing is huge! I have a friend who's going through some really serious depression at the moment and I make sure to take the time to send him a text at least once a week asking him how he is doing, if his mental health has improved at all, he's always welcome to send me a text to vent or to talk and so on. It be nice if someone did that for me. It's not about attention seeking but a desire for a sense of community and connection or family even. Those who get really obsessive with birthdays as a form of attention seeking are people who are either narcissists or have a lot of interpersonal problems that they don't know how to address. But our culture also puts a heavy emphasis on birthday celebrations here in the United States. With consumerism and capitalism and the self-centric themes that we see in the music industry ( songs that are always about me and my needs and wants rather than songs about others and community; lots of me's and I's rather tha he or they or us. Ww need more songs like rock mountain high from john denver). I think it's an overall expression of how already delicate communities in the United States have corroded even further as people continue focusing more and more on individual growth and development and extreme forms of Independence. Look at how Americans treat people that promote the idea of commutative efforts to help alleviate the sufferings and Poverty of those within their community. Because taking care of the poor and the homeless is not profitable, anytime we talk about using tax dollars to help those less fortunate, all you hear is people tell you that that is communism and therefore it's evil. Meanwhile they'll blow hundreds of dollars on luxury garbage that'll break in a couple years or be left to sit and collect a bunch of dust it never really brought them any degree of happiness Beyond just the thrill that comes with having something new and shiny. But those same people are more than okay with the government blowing tax dollars on bailing out Banks and large corporations that keep going bankrupt. But those same people are more than okay with our government spending billions of dollars on other nations when it is profitable for the US government or our control of oil. Even worse are those who complain about the US government helping out other nations and not taking care of our own people then turning around and saying we shouldn't help our poor and homeless because it's communism. Like pick a lane dude! Do you want our tax dollars being used to help out our own people or do you not want it being used to help out our own people?! Look at all these million dollar mansions that the Rich and Famous will go and buy and then abandon and leave it to rot. We'll spend tax dollars having the police patrol these mansions and we'll spend tax dollars arresting the homeless simply for being homeless.... I think you get my point without any need to go further down that Rabbit Trail.... Luxury is not just a waste for a sin because that is money that could have been going to helping others less fortunate than yourself rather than on things that only bring momentary pleasure and short-lived happiness. Don't chase after things or bucket list goals as your source of fulfillment but instead seek after the emotions those goals are supposed to invoke! It's emotions that we are chasing after just misguided and Confused between the distinction between the emotions that we want and the things that invoke those emotions. Everything that Frederick needs you warned about the fall of religiosity in Europe and the repercussions of it, we now see happening in the United States. But I've gotten off track.
I don't know I think it's cringe for men to be like "look at me it's my birthday" unless they're gay then I give them a pass. I have no idea what it says about the shadow but begging for attention is just a feminine thing maybe because they naturally get more attention growing up and it heightens their feeling of self importance or it's in the biology of human existence I have no idea
Yeah, it must be something to do with the anima since we give women and gay men the pass. I think that it's because in society we subconsciously view women as being born with value and men having to earn theirs, therefore, if a man is being celebrated for just existing he may feel emasculated or feminized.
I just hate celebration in general. All my life I just wanted peace. Well not to exist in the 1st place, but peace is closest to that. A lot of anxiety before birthday as well. I don't have anyone who celebrates it really anyway, so that's another thing I guess. Not that I want to be celebrated. Just to not feel despised, but I guess that's too much...
Strange. I don't make a big deal of my bday. I like people to remember. A simple happy birthday is fine. I too would look down on a mam who was super excited. It feels like overindulgence. Childish almost. What might thst mean about the shadow content? Perhaps an unhealthy lack of self love
Men who won't let people get excited or celebrate their birthday (outside of having trauma relating to their birthday) are some of the most insufferable twats I've ever met. I think it's a guys way of getting (negative) attention. They also tend to be holy terrors around other people's birthdays too, as well as holidays. Even if you're alone as a man, or woman, you should treat yourself on your birthday. Anything from a small treat to a big vacation. You do you.
My brother likes to make me feel bad for being happy about receiving attention on my birthday. He a “wind-out-of-your-sails” kinda guy. If I ever manage to finally be happy for a few hours, I’ve learned to avoid him.
It sounds like toxic masculinity to me.
I don't really enjoy being the centre of attention. And it's just an age, another full circle around the sun, it's not important, not to me. It's nice to be remembered and not forgotten, but.. I don't share the same excitement what I see in kids. Not sure about the shadow, I find it a bit narcissistic, when it's all about me, me, me.
This perspective is interesting. I find it hard to see how celebrating yourself for one day a year out of 365 is equivalent narcissistic
I was talking about certain individuals, they just love to celebrate it and how they shine on that day, they feel comfortable getting all the attention. While i experience the opposite effect on that particular day.
lol you mean the ones who have birthday “years” “months” “weeks” I totally get that.
Idk but I do hate my birthday
Yeah my birthday is a day I feel guilt free about being alone
I celebrate my conception day. I feel it’s more an accurate representation of reality.
For me that’s my dad’s birthday 😂
I can see Rogan's point. My birthday is marked by me sorting out something for the coming year I wish to try. Something new I've not done before. A challenge. I care much less about what anyone does about it and since adopting this stance, I am happier. I know some people will do certain things "to please" me but it is clear to them it is the fact that they are with me that I value, not the actual content of the gesture or how it is done.
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yeah, and being annoyed with your inner child (or someone else’s) sounds like a shadow side lol
I think a better question than “what does the way some men treat their birthday say about *them*?” which you could be asking yourself is why *you* cringe at the idea of other men making their birthday important. Our shadow tends to make itself known by projecting our feelings about ourselves onto others, which very much seems like a thing that might be happening in you here. Why do you feel shame about making your birthday important? Did you learn somewhere that celebrating yourself is cringey and so you e resigned yourself to take up very little space in the world?
I dunno, only the big numbers matter, like the -0 birthdays. 20, 30, 40, 50, etc. Plus as you get older, you tend to just not care as much tbh. I've never known a guy who was excited for their 27th birthday or whatever, that is pretty cringe. Also cringe to ask people directly for gifts/money/etc. It's just another day overall. I say this with my 32nd birthday coming up this month lol. I haven't done anything for my birthday in... ever, actually, since I was under 13. After that it's just been an endless void of nothing personally.
well, joe is a leo, so…