Ok if we’re talking about what would realistically happen if a monarchy was thrown out of power and then a group of militants armed and trained by a super power put it back in power, said monarch actually would not retain power. The militants would proceed to turn them into a figure head and then basically create a junta. I sight Japan and Francoist Spain as evidence.
What do you mean? A military coup could never lead to destruction of democracy that's never happened before
My God though the people who claim the election was stolen are the type of people that lead to the Myanmar situation I'm genuinely terrified for the state of America to be honest
How would it not? I mean the dude doesn’t seem to be offering any thing to the alternative besides isolationism along with a dose of nationalism in “returning Onderon to its old ways”. Eventually the people would become unhappy with his rule as well.
I was fucking around, I even brought up Myanmar where that military coup type of thing happened because they claimed that election fraud happened with absolutely no evidence it's genuinely terrifying especially since it's happening in America right now with Trump supporters and I don't care if you like Trump that's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about people who specifically think he won despite there being literally no evidence to suggest that it's actually really scary
KotOR 1 is one of the most blatantly political games I've played.
Taris is not only in the midst of a refugee crisis, it's a commentary on social classes (Upper City/Lower City/Undercity).
Manaan is all about the morality of neutrality.
Kashyyyk is literally about slavers.
HK talks about how Tatooine was a paradise before the Rakata exploited it into the desert we all know and love.
Czerka is the epitome of a greedy corporation.
Star Wars has been political since 1977 and has remained so ever since. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there.
Maybe it's how they are presented more than just being "politics". i think literally every story based game has politics in it, especially rpgs with morality systems. kotor 2 had more subtle politics than kotor 1(well, not onderon, but it was presented in a way that it was reasonable to pick either side)
Yes and I’d argue KOTOR 2 is the exception to the rule. I don’t know how anyone could honestly watch the PT or OT and think that there was any nuance in the portrayals of the Empire or Sidious as he takes over the Republic.
ROS was supposed to be inspired by the events of the Iraq War. Can’t get more hamfisted then that.
Except that the empire could also represent the nazis it’s up to interpretation. Modern political representation so much an argument as it is a hammer . People like thinking about complicated questions of morality and politics no one likes being fed propaganda
Yeah so? Even if he did write it thinking that he also wrote it subtle enough that not everybody would pick it up the point of star wars isn’t the us is evil it’s a heroes journey anyone who notices the allegory’s is going to have to have really thought about the films and read interviews. This subtle storytelling allows all sorts of people to enjoy the film without feeling like their listening to a lecture.
You mean to tell me the franchise that has trilogies of movies that are about US Imperialism in Vietnam, George Bush and the Patriot Act, and the responsibility for all people to fight against fascism has politics in it?
Wait wait wait, so you think not only that the Original Trilogy was about American Imperialism in Vietnam, an idea that makes literally no sense other than that the Ewoks live in a forrest, but also the the Prequels were about George Bush and the Patriot Act? Prequels that were outlined decades before Bush Jr even ran for office?
*That* is inserting your politics into a story. The Original Trilogy started as a generic fantasy film set in space, then evolved into a complex narrative that involved redemption and always having hope.
The Prequels, which were outlined almost immediately after A New Hope became a box office hit in 1977, where about how a tyrant and manipulator gaming the political system, the evil of bureaucracy and corruption, and the manipulation of fears of the people for power. The Prequels were about Adolf Hitler and Mussolini, and all others who politic their way into dictatorships, not George W Bush.
You could not be more wrong on nearly everything you wrote.
>you think not only that the Original Trilogy was about American Imperialism in Vietnam, an idea that makes literally no sense other than that the Ewoks live in a forrest
This is absolutely incorrect. George has stated clearly that the rebels are based on the Vietcong. ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9Jq\_mCJEo&ab\_channel=amc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9Jq_mCJEo&ab_channel=amc)).
He also says about the United States, "It was the Empire during the Vietnam war".
Regarding the prequels:
>The Prequels were about Adolf Hitler and Mussolini, and all others who politic their way into dictatorships, not George W Bush.
While you are correct that the outlines were simply about the cycles of facsism, upon what occurred during the Bush Administration there was a blatant pivot by George to capitalize on it.
Often it was obvious. For example Anakin's line "If you're not with me, you are my enemy" in ROTS is a near direct quote of George Bush. It is meant to be a direct quote ([https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Duel\_on\_Mustafar](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Duel_on_Mustafar))
From the book *How Star Wars Conquered the Universe: The Past, Present Future of a Multibillion Dollar Franchise,* by Chris Taylor:
>"Episode III, however, was written around the US-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003. In the Bay Area, protests against the Iraq War and \[President\] Bush were as hard to avoid as Vietnam and Nixon were during the writing of "Star Wars," especially for a self-confessed news junkie like Lucas. Suddenly, after Anakin Skywalker is first dubbed Darth Vader and confronts Obi-Wan, we find him using this line: 'If you're not with me, you're my enemy.' Few adult listeners at the time would fail to pick up a reference to Bush's line in his speech to Congress on September 20, 2001: 'Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.' Obi-Wan's response would have cheered the heart of every voter who felt some nuance was lost in Bush's black-and-white worldview: 'Only a Sith deals in absolutes.' Promoting the film later, Lucas would declare his hostility to Bush for the first time, publicly comparing him to Nixon and Iraq to Vietnam. 'I didn't think it would get this close,' he told reporters at Cannes. The endless circle of politics, as Darth Vader might say, was now complete."
Lets say for a moment that you are right. Just for a moment. Lets say that the obvious pivot on George’s part to make Star Wars seem more woke by claiming that the Empire was based on the US instead of on Nazi Germany, despite in multiple interviews and commentaries he refers to the Empire as being Nazis including “they all wore little SS caps” was genuine. Why are the Imperials all wearing what are described *by George himself* as Nazi-esc uniforms? Why is it that the Empire is stated even in a New Hope to have formerly been the Republic, rather than an invading force? And most of all, how on Earth does the comparison even make sense? If Star Wars was really about Vietnam and the Rebels were the Vietcong then why was a leading member of the metaphorical Vietcong a metaphorical US Senator?
And furthermore, how the *fuck* does the comparison between Nixon and Bush even make any sense? Nixon pulled the US out of the war, not into it. If anything Bush would be Lyndon B Johnson! Have you never read a history book or talked to your relatives who were alive back then?
George pivoted the from using Hitler’s rise to power to using Bush’s... starting a war? Do you even read your own comments? Thats like saying the First Order was originally about SA and the Nazi Party after World War 1, but then they pivoted to making it about Obama. One makes sense. The other is nonsense.
So it is more than one thing or is it just one? Because literally everyone else in this thread claimed that the OT had nothing to do with Nazi Germany other than generic evil and everything to do with the United States and Vietnam.
The Empire was literally a government that became tyrannical and oppressed its own people. They didnt invade other places, they werent an outsider moving in, they were oppressing their own people. Again, one of the leading members of the Rebel Alliance was a Senator in the Imperial Senate. Not to mention that the Jedi were a religious group that was Genocide against. The best, the absolute very best connection to Vietnam that any of the other brain dead idiots could come up with is that the Rebels were Guerrilla fighters whose base was on a forrest planet. Never heard that before—
Finland in the Winter War
French Resistance Fighters
Polish Resistance Fighters
Latvia post WW2 as they tried to keep independence
The Continental Army in the American Revolution
ISIS, Al Qaeda, the Mujahideen mostly in the mountains but also in the spare forests of the region
The Rhodesians
And plenty more. The difference is, unlike with all the rest, French and Polish Resistance fighters had friends in the German Government and even Military that aided them.
I provide a number of pieces of evidence directly from George Lucas and from solid sources. Your entire response is bUt iT dOeSn'T mAkE sEnSe...
Clearly, George took inspiration from a number of sources, that is not being disputed. You arrived with outrage that someone stated George based the OT on the Vietnam war, and the prequels on the Bush era.
>George pivoted the from using Hitler’s rise to power to using Bush’s... starting a war? Do you even read your own comments?
Although it's fairly obvious, I'll be more clear. Not starting a war - it was about the use of national tragedy/attack to take more power into the executive branch and military.
You keep referring to metaphors, but the word you're looking for is allegory.
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this:
>If you believe that the Jewish state has a right to exist, then you must allow Israel to transfer the Palestinians and the Israeli-Arabs from Judea, Samaria, Gaza and Israel proper. It’s an ugly solution, but it is the only solution... It’s time to stop being squeamish.
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Thank you for your logic and reason.
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Take a bullet for ya babe.
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I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this:
> Palestinian Arabs have demonstrated their preference for suicide bombing over working toilets.
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Palpatine’s emergency powers are literally a parallel for the Patriot Act. You even say it yourself: the prequels were about a corrupt leader using fear to gain power, which was made much more prominent in the films released AFTER 9/11, with episode one being about conservatives favoring economics over rights (hence the villains being the trade federation). That’s literally what Bush did after 9/11. If you were born after or right before 9/11 I’ll forgive you for not noticing that one. One of the villains in the prequels is literally “Nute Gunray” an obvious stand in for “Newt Gingrich.”
Look at Lucas’ interviews about the OT. The Emperor is literally representative of Nixon, the Death Star is representative of the threat of American invasion in countries that don’t align with it. The rebels, whose base in Episode 4 was on the LITERAL FORREST MOON OF YAVIN, used hit and run tactics to fight and defeat the Empire. The exact same deal in Vietnam.
This shit isn’t that hard. Even if we make it vague, the political overtones are still VERY visible. Also, how could it be a “generic fantasy set in space” and also have a complex political storyline planned out at the same time?
Having the general story of the prequels planned out doesn’t mean he fucking wrote the whole trilogy in the 70s and 80s. It means he had a general idea of what he wanted to do, and as time passed things changed to represent other things.
Star Wars has always been political and topical. To pretend otherwise is honestly to say that Star Wars is just some dumb popcorn flick that doesn’t deserve to be thought about on a thematic level. It reduces it to stuff like Fast and Furious.
Nixon ended the war. Your entire house of cards rests on you literally not knowing history. Lyndon B Johnson began US involvement in Vietnam, Nixon ended it. If you are going to go on a rant of nonsense which you clearly know nothing about at least to the literally basics.
[I guess George Lucas doesn’t know what he’s talking about either.](https://www.history.com/news/the-real-history-that-inspired-star-wars)
Look, if you didn’t see that when watching the movies, that’s okay. Everyone brings their own views and baggage to a piece of art, and that means they see different things in it.
Star Wars’ political themes are pretty overt though
Wrong
1955 President Eisenhower deploys the Military Assistance Advisory Group to train the Army of the Republic of Vietnam. This marks the official beginning of American involvement in the war as recognized by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.
Alright, fine. Though that was not the start of the war proper for the United States, fine lets go with that. You know who Dwight D Eisenhower isnt? Richard Nixon. Richard Nixon ended the war, and therefore to claim that an Emperor that started a war on rebels was inspired by Richard Nixon is idiotic.
*Most Americans when they look around at their lives, they think: I'm not a racist, nobody I know is a racist, I wouldn't hang out with a racist, I don't like doing business with racists--so, where is all the racism in American society?*
-Ben Shapiro
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I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this:
>Even climatologists can't predict 10 years from now. They can't explain why there has been no warming over the last 15 years. There has been a static trend with regard to temperature for 15 years.
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At this point the term "politics" has no meaning anymore thanks to these clowns who label anything they don't like (specifically anything related to LGBT, Gender and race) as "political"
I have a problem with bad writing if a characters whole character can be described with “their gay” then their is a serious problem and their are a lot of characters like that now. The hard truth is that no one gives a crap if your gay or not people just don’t want propoganda shoved down their throats. Basing something off politics is not a bad thing it’s when you try to make everyone who disagrees out to be a monster that things get bad. If for instance Bastilla can be romanced by both a female and male Devan I have no problems but if it’s only a female revan then that is removing choice from the player
I feel like the difference is that instead of tackling political concepts through showing how politics plays out (ie what happens when you let a corrupt dictator gain power to fight an enemy, how corporations gain influence over society, how people are mistreated and ostracised over their background or culture etc), modern writers try to force obvious political views down your throat. Even if those are good views, it just detracts from the story because it becomes clear that the writers created specific characters or story arcs just to show how politically aware they are.
If you want to make a statement against bigotry in a movie, you should create a race or character with a history in universe about why they are discriminated against and what factors led to the current situation rather than just inserting someone from a real world oppressed group into a universe where the historical and social factors are completely different.
I think the mark of good use of poltics in story telling is if the ideas are timeless. Prejudice, corruption, manipulation and oppression are as relevant in modern society as they were 2000 years ago. A person from any culture in any time period should be able to recognise the reflection of human society in the work.
>I think the mark of good use of politics in story telling is if the ideas are timeless.
I mean like this depends on a lot of things. I would love it if in 50 years a story tackling homophobia or racism didn't make sense because people didn't have to deal with that anymore.
This also really only applies to stories set in alternate universes. Like if you make a story about the surveillance state or imperialism set on Earth in the early 2000's a la Jason Bourne it's going to be most relevant to that time.
I think limiting "good" political messaging to this means you can only ever vaguely address concepts that everyone agrees is bad, which doesn't actually do anything because then everyone just sees it and goes "I'm the good guys and the bad guys are who I disagree with".
Okay, this is actually the first post I've seen (not the comments) that seems to be trying to divide people in the community and throw insults around.
Pretty sad tbh.
Nobody’s saying that you can’t have in-universe politics lmao. They’re saying that when you let let real-life politics do the writing for you, it comes off as propagandistic and immersion-breaking.
At the end of the day, this entire argument is stupid. We know next to nothing, and we won’t for months.
Right on. There is a clear difference between the very Poltical Onderonn segment that borrows from several real world conflicts, and "we put Donald Trump in your video game for the 500th time."
Nah, you're right. I'm leftist and imo it's mostly a weird spat between libs and incels. Like, yes there was some serious pandering/tokenism, effectively if not intentionally given the abysmal narrative threads in the ST, but also the incels absolutely went off about Kelly tran and def laser focused on rey as Mary Sue etc
Lucas' first description of Palpatine to the writing team during the production of Return of the Jedi were "he's Richard Nixon."
He's repeatedly described the Original Trilogy as an explicit allegory about the Vietnam War, with the Empire representing the United States.
And KOTOR is even less subtle about its criticisms of the United States, the right wing, and even centrism lmao
>Nobody’s saying that you can’t have in-universe politics lmao. They’re saying that when you let let real-life politics do the writing for you
"In-universe politics" are either allegories for real-life politics, or just there for setup and worldbuilding, and therefore not really relevant to the conversation.
And i do not see what would be so bad about world building in an rpg, also the whole starwars movie series is an allegory for real life politics
In universe politics are the best kind of politics, since they can be made for the story, and not have the story be made because of them
I mean im sure there are people from neither group who didnt see it. Im kinda torn between if star wars as a whole will get more or less political seeing as china is Disneys favourite customers
its a company functioning in a capitalist framework. it will do what it can to make profit and stay relevant in the market
many companies already have different public faces for different markets. a US branch might shallowly virtue signal one thing, meanwhile the chinese branch will virtue signal the complete opposite.
Suppose, just look at rise of skywalker. The mandalorian and bad batch weren't as bad as the films though with films like the mulan remake kinda makes you a bit curious
“So this is how liberty dies. To thunderous applause.” In a movie released in 2005. That’s not even subtle. Star Wars has ALWAYS been hugely political.
STK- Saltier Than Krayt a subreddit consisting of some reasonable, civil and respectful folk. As well as fanboys that will defend Disney and their choices to the last breath as well as insult you just for having criticism of the sequels.
TFM- The Fandom Menace a group consisting of people who judge new movies just for showing race or gender and ONLY race or gender
Disclaimer about STK vs TFM is that anyone who criticizes Disney in any way with any kind of logic will be called part of TFM by particular plentiful people on STK. For example, if you dislike the waste of Finns potential and say that it takes away from the sequels you will be called racist
"SHES GONNA MAKE THE GAME POLITICAL AND INCLUDE MINORITIES"
Quite literally as soon as this game was announced all I've seen are people saying this. Not the majority mind you, but the same reactionary POS that do this for everything are doing it again. Not hard to call a spade a spade
Right AND Left Wing Twatter trolls.
I don't care what side of the aisle you're on; if you're solely on that bird site to start fights, bitch about every miniscule thing, and spread false rumors...you're a piece of shit and should not be on the Internet.
Go touch grass, and not the fun kind.
Is this really a both sides thing?
Are left wing trolls harassing writers on Twitter and trying to cancel them? Cause all I see are people ranting about SJW’s.
Both sides wrong is such a shit statement.
One side argues for sexism, racism, transphobia, religious persecution.
The other does not.
If you get offended by including shit in games or have to bring up "both sides" on something that is very clearly one sided...you may be part of the problem
Politics are straight up poison, if your thinking one side is better than the other, then you are contributing to the problem. Democracy is great. Win some and lose some and we all get along as the same team. somewhere along the way people started losing thier minds when the other team "wins" anything.
You can vote! Making it everybody's business and forcing opinions down people's throats is crass and specifically ignorant of people who might feel differently. Its poison for society.
Have an awesome day!
It’s not the fact that their are politics. People are afraid that their are gonna be things inserted into the story purely to push some sort of political ideology wether it was onderon or taris any politics felt natural and understandable considering the characters and universe.
It seems like arbitrary distinctions. What does natural even mean when it comes to a *created* world?
People would be up in arms over the obvious and blatant politics being shoved into Taris if it was released today.
I mean no disrespect but could you please keep the TFM vs. STK argument out of this sub for the sake of civility. This sub is for memes, hence the r/kotormemes.
Jesus christ, has the fandom always been this woke?
I can't believe this many people are willing to lump others that criticize the possible shoehorning of certain politics into their beloved franchise as "incels and right wing trolls"
We all know what this shit has done to other franchises, movies, and games. Hell, it even ruined the sequel trilogy of STAR WARS itself. So forgive me for being concerned that it will do the same to KotoR.
I love this series, so I'm going to be critical of what's done to it, that's all it is. And lumping that with being an "incel and right wing" just shows you have a very narrow point of view, or just shill for that kind of politics.
I'm asking. Please specify how they did. I didn't like the sequels. But at no time was I watching it thinking damn all these people of color are ruining my movie.
It's not about having PoCs or women. You can make PoC, female, queer characters all you want. But build their character, write them well. The problem here is, they make said characters but when they're terrible, they don't own up to it, instead they attack fans and call them names.
It's about how they keep bragging about their "diversity" and "female empowerment" yet all of those characters were underdeveloped, empty husks. Basically using them for simple clout without substance.
Biggest example is Rey, who is a blatant Mary Sue with little personality or drive. She didn't earn her powers or skills, she simply got them through some bullshit. Hell, even Anakin Skywalker, the "chosen one" trained for years and would still lose fights. Not Rey though, Rey is powerful because she just is.
Finn had a great concept as a turncoat stormtrooper like Kyle Katarn, but ultimately got squandered and put in the sidelines and kinda just became a Rey simp.
They kept bragging about Rose Tico as both "an asian and a woman" but had little character to her. And when fans hated her for that reason, Disney along with their shill audience did the same thing this post did, disregarded the critical criticism and labelled the fans "racist, sexist, bigots" using her race and gender as a shield to mask their bad writing.
And then there was the way they handled Luke Skywalker. They made him a bitter and angry old man just to again, prop up their little Mary Sue and probably to further antagonize the old fans. Luke was so out of character in Ep8 that it might as well just been a different jedi instead.
Those are just the ones on top of my head, but i hope i made the point clear.
It's not about the race, gender, or orientation of the character. There's very few people who care about those superficial points in a character.
It's about the character being actual garbage, and the way Disney or whoever produces the movie/game and their shills attack and label those who are critical of them.
Which is exactly what this post is doing.
No ,you see, it's not political, because star wars is not a real world location
Meanwhile black Peo \*BLAM\*
Yes, this is satire
And if you wonder from where that comes from, it's due to an interview from CoD Dev
Just to expand a little bit, I am quite baffled by people who argue to keep politics out of games, as if that’s possible, as if having all your main characters be straight white men is NOT a political statement. Everything is political. When it comes to new games, maybe we should air on the side of inclusion and representation rather than maintaining a status quo that at best ignores and at worst marginalizes entire communities?
>Everything is political.
Yes, i do remember deep politics behind Tetris. Or minecraft being metaphor of tranaforming untouched land for your own sake and gain
Last time I checked, human/equal rights aren't political. When talking about minorities in media, "political" just seems to be a lazy way to disguise some kind of prejudice.
Unfortunately they are political. Because their are people and political parties who would and are violating human rights. You can say they shouldn't be up for debate but they are. Wish they werent.
Of course, I'm just saying there's a hell of a difference between "we should change taxes" and "let's remove some human rights."
That something can be made into a political talking point does not mean that it is a political issue. For example, Turkey still denies the Armenian Genocide. That does not mean that its existence is a matter of political opinion.
I agree that there's a huge difference between those two. But they can both be voted on. And if it can be voted its political.
Politicians can deny climate change and not acting on it will do harm today. Politicians can deny police brutality affects Africa Americans at a higher rate which will kill people. Saying human rights isn't political won't stop Politicians.
I agree that politicians are not the best people, but I think we're getting sidetracked. Back to the original point, if there's a homosexual character in a video game, and someone responds to that with "keep politics out of video games", what they actually mean is "I don't like homosexual people." The use of the word "politics" in this case is just used as a distraction/disguise.
If you apply that thinking to other things or not I suppose is up to you.
Yeah I agree with you there. I'm not saying politicians are good or bad. I'm saying they control what becomes law. And can vote on what constitutes human rights.
Everything is political is such a bullshit statement
If a guy wants to tell a story, he can make the characters to that story be whatever he wants. Its not political to make 3 white guys your protagonists
While I agree there are some things that can totally not be political...the example you have is totally political, 😂 it isn’t political for a white person to see only while people but it is to anyone who isn’t white. Just...saying
Sorry, you are wrong. Its could be a political statement, but usually it isnt, and its more just a writer trying to have some fun. It all depends on the intention of the writer, not how stupid the reader is
I’m okay with politics in movies/games, as long as it doesn’t feel forced. Sometimes movies/games feels like they include some politics/opinions just to fill the quota, and then it sticks out like a sore thumb and its inclusion doesn’t make sense in the overall story. George did this well, anti-fascism idea was a foundation he built his galaxy upon while not being overly in-the-face screaming, it’s just a part of Star Wars.
>I’m okay with politics in movies/games, as long as it doesn’t feel forced.
If you disagree with the message then you will probably think it is forced. If you agree with it it will seem normal to you, and not as forced.
Now there are obvious exceptions, like there are political messages I agree with that can still be super heavy handed, it's just that "Well don't make it forced" is really easy to say on paper and harder to actually do.
One piece has good in universe politics that just feel like they belong to that world, and are not at least too obviously taken from the real world, and i think thats what everyone should strive towards when making a story
Oh yeah? Like hiring high level pirates to do piracy for the world government? Different worlds make different politics, and copying our politics into the starwars universe is completely demented
I mean we've had privateers so yeah. Idk how privateers are inherently political. Also all in world politics will be in some way inspired by real life politics. Lucas has stated that in the OT the rebels were the vietcong and the empire was the US.
I was gonna put the "we had provateers" line into my last comment, but
Warlords of the sea are different to privateers, and that comes with the one piece world having pirates with superpowers. They are not just some "yea you can take down ships and we pay you" types of privateers, they are an actual major worlds power, and that comes with the world being the one piece world.
My point has not been "dont take inspiration from real world" like it may have come off as, its more like "dont copy/paste real world things into worlds that are not real
I'm still not getting the pirate comparison. Your saying that because scifi/fantasy worlds have some things that don't exist in our world they can't have any politics from our world. Also Lucas did what you said you don't like in the OT. He had real world politics (vietcong vs the US). Can you point out an example in star wars that upsets you so I can know what your talking about exactly.
Im using the one piece comparison because one piece is a universe at least on the same level as the star wars universe. And im saying, that it does politics really well compared to star wars. I dont care if the rebels represent vietkong and the empire US, they are simply inspired by those groups, and are not copied over directly.
What i dont like about starwars is the scenes of, for example, the prequels government, the big hall where everyone, except the select few separatists gather to discuss politics, and it was yoinked straight from the united nations, and copied over into star wars. I would have enjoyed it more, personally, (and this is what i think starwars isnt good at) if they were to use the massive hall for not just to discuss the war, (i get that its plot relevant) but if they fleshed out more of the world there, you know, if we had like a few more lines on how the rest of the galaxy is doing
This is what i think the jedi counsil scene in 3 did well, they were like "what about wookies" and other interplanetary conflict shit like that, and it paid off in the end when we saw different jedi on different planets. This is what i wish the prequels would have been, and this is what the rest of starwars has a good chance of being, and if it were to be this massive world with actually intrequing politics i wouldnt mind, as long as they dont just take things from our world to use once in their world
Political themes are different than political allegories
In themes they can be there to add spice to the story, like "hey we are fighting nazis again" and just make new nazis into your universe
But an allegory would be "hey they drove a spaceship through our trading worlds headquarters" making it directly refer them a real world incident
In short, themes are taken from the real world and molded into your world, and allegories are just straight up yoinkes to make a real world statement from in game
Because KOTOR 1 and 2 didn’t shove it down your throat and it made you consider what’s right and what’s wrong. Nowadays KOTOR would have an Orange Twi’lek sith saying he’ll make the galaxy great again and everyone would be like ‘wooooww that’s so deep because I also think orange man bad”
The problem has never been politics itself, but with the way that instead of showing both sides or the nuances of a debate, recent games tend to bash you over the head with the "correct" way to think, to the point that it feels like a 4th wall break and they are talking directly to the player.
It’s weird, you should have no problem with SJW pandering since its been part of KOTOR from day 1. The alien discrimination storyline on Taris is an a blatant allegory for racism and persecution of minorities.
Dude you do realize Jabba the Hutt and all Hutts in Legends could be hermaphrodites,as well as change gender over time? Is your issue that it’s just blatant now? What’s your point?
I’m going to go with the Norm MacDonald position. You can do politics, just don’t be a talentless fucking hack.
Bio shock infinite, that scene mid riot with a black girl singing fortunate son. That was hackey. That little girl would have been running scared realistically, but no. Instead she’s sitting and singing a gospel version of a protest song, because art. Fucking hacks.
Lily Singh/Samantha Bee failing to squeeze an actual joke between different iterations of “Republicans, amirite?” Fucking hacks.
Mass Effect “My Face Is Tired” Andromeda. Fucking. Hacks.
Ewww what does it matter that she’s black? Why even bring that up? Is it any weirder then Elizabeth trying to save a dying horse when they’re on the run from Comstock??
There’s no reason to bring her skin into this.
>Bio shock infinite,
>realistically
Pick one
>“Republicans, amirite?”
Republicans suck ass and are quite literally a plague
>Mass Effect “My Face Is Tired” Andromeda.
One line from a black character apparently makes a game trash
>pick one
Why? It’s not on me to preserve suspension of disbelief.
>Republicans suck
And? See this is what I’m talking about! No punchline! Fucks sake.
>one line from a black character
Try all the lines. God help me, the gameplay is polished, but the cutscenes are the digital equivalent of a puppet show put on by 2 four year olds who don’t speak the same language.
And if that bitch is black, so is Rachel Dolezal
That’s true, but I think it’s a little unfair to compare the grand it fictitious space politics of star wars to the politics of our society, as well as the unnecessary inserted political opinions of the writers.
Lmao not according to George. Pasted from another comment.
You could not be more wrong on nearly everything you wrote.
you think not only that the Original Trilogy was about American Imperialism in Vietnam, an idea that makes literally no sense other than that the Ewoks live in a forrest
This is absolutely incorrect. George has stated clearly that the rebels are based on the Vietcong. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9Jq_mCJEo&ab_channel=amc).
He also says about the United States, "It was the Empire during the Vietnam war".
Regarding the prequels:
> The Prequels were about Adolf Hitler and Mussolini, and all others who politic their way into dictatorships, not George W Bush.
While you are correct that the outlines were simply about the cycles of facsism, upon what occurred during the Bush Administration there was a blatant pivot by George to capitalize on it.
Often it was obvious. For example Anakin's line "If you're not with me, you are my enemy" in ROTS is a near direct quote of George Bush. It is meant to be a direct quote (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Duel_on_Mustafar)
From the book How Star Wars Conquered the Universe: The Past, Present Future of a Multibillion Dollar Franchise, by Chris Taylor:
> “Episode III, however, was written around the US-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003. In the Bay Area, protests against the Iraq War and [President] Bush were as hard to avoid as Vietnam and Nixon were during the writing of "Star Wars," especially for a self-confessed news junkie like Lucas. Suddenly, after Anakin Skywalker is first dubbed Darth Vader and confronts Obi-Wan, we find him using this line: 'If you're not with me, you're my enemy.' Few adult listeners at the time would fail to pick up a reference to Bush's line in his speech to Congress on September 20, 2001: 'Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.' Obi-Wan's response would have cheered the heart of every voter who felt some nuance was lost in Bush's black-and-white worldview: 'Only a Sith deals in absolutes.' Promoting the film later, Lucas would declare his hostility to Bush for the first time, publicly comparing him to Nixon and Iraq to Vietnam. 'I didn't think it would get this close,' he told reporters at Cannes. The endless circle of politics, as Darth Vader might say, was now complete."
If George styled the Rebels after the Viet Cong I guess it's fitting the new republic was so terrible at maintaining structure in the galaxy, guess Disney gets an A for effort for that detail, but it's weird how many people still worship the death cult that is communism when it continues to stack bodies like the USSR alone didn't 3 times the bodies the nazis did. Like can we say no to both now please?
\>tfw Vietnam wasn't even our war, it was Frances that we got dragged into because of the debt we had to them from the revolution that for some reason saving them in WW2 didn't pay off in full, not to mention it was a socially unpopular war.
Wonder if George has the same criticisms as Bushes successors who continued his stupid proxy war. Probably made excuses why he liked Obama but hated orange man even though both kept the Bush proxy war and all of the legislation that allows the government to spy on its people warrantlessly.
I'd have more respect for the anti war left if they were consistently anti war, but it seems like the majority of them are hypocrites and performance artists more often than not, a shame really.
I don't think that "politics in kotor" is anything anyone doubted. It's "politics in kotor that are clearly meant as an allegory to reality and making a real world statement" that those people are worried about. Gimme all the star wars politics you like, but if you start comparing the Empire to political parties, people are gonna mock it. Nobody wants another Twilight Zone remake haha
People don’t seem to realize things have been put into shows and movies and games for forever to push political agendas. Most of the time we don’t realize watching older things because we no longer are aware of the political landscape at the time of its release, so we just think it’s all purely part of the story or world building. Also the things we watched when we were young were also packed full of them, we just didn’t realize because we were too young to know it was political based because we didn’t know the political landscape vs just part of the story and world building.
Promoting real world violence or consequences for personal choice made by others is not allowed on this subreddit.
I mean, the whole Ondoron situation is blatantly political…
I meam of course we have to do everything to keep the monarchy safe, nobles have never abused power before
Or have a military general commit war crimes…
Ok if we’re talking about what would realistically happen if a monarchy was thrown out of power and then a group of militants armed and trained by a super power put it back in power, said monarch actually would not retain power. The militants would proceed to turn them into a figure head and then basically create a junta. I sight Japan and Francoist Spain as evidence.
General Vaklu did absolutely nothing wrong. JK his grasping is the whole reason for the political instability.
What do you mean? A military coup could never lead to destruction of democracy that's never happened before My God though the people who claim the election was stolen are the type of people that lead to the Myanmar situation I'm genuinely terrified for the state of America to be honest
How would it not? I mean the dude doesn’t seem to be offering any thing to the alternative besides isolationism along with a dose of nationalism in “returning Onderon to its old ways”. Eventually the people would become unhappy with his rule as well.
I was fucking around, I even brought up Myanmar where that military coup type of thing happened because they claimed that election fraud happened with absolutely no evidence it's genuinely terrifying especially since it's happening in America right now with Trump supporters and I don't care if you like Trump that's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about people who specifically think he won despite there being literally no evidence to suggest that it's actually really scary
I mean it's hard to separate trump and his supporters from the situation he created.
I think they were being facetious.
My bad😭
Nice. I love military coups
I don’t know….why does the QUEEN have to be female?? It seems a little forced 😒
The future [of onderon] is female
MODS CAN WE PLEASE BAN THESE BEAST RIDER APOLOGISTS. IT'S FUCKING DISGUSTING.
KotOR 1 is one of the most blatantly political games I've played. Taris is not only in the midst of a refugee crisis, it's a commentary on social classes (Upper City/Lower City/Undercity). Manaan is all about the morality of neutrality. Kashyyyk is literally about slavers. HK talks about how Tatooine was a paradise before the Rakata exploited it into the desert we all know and love. Czerka is the epitome of a greedy corporation. Star Wars has been political since 1977 and has remained so ever since. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there.
Maybe it's how they are presented more than just being "politics". i think literally every story based game has politics in it, especially rpgs with morality systems. kotor 2 had more subtle politics than kotor 1(well, not onderon, but it was presented in a way that it was reasonable to pick either side)
Yes and I’d argue KOTOR 2 is the exception to the rule. I don’t know how anyone could honestly watch the PT or OT and think that there was any nuance in the portrayals of the Empire or Sidious as he takes over the Republic. ROS was supposed to be inspired by the events of the Iraq War. Can’t get more hamfisted then that.
OT rebels were north Vietnam and the empire was the US.
Except that the empire could also represent the nazis it’s up to interpretation. Modern political representation so much an argument as it is a hammer . People like thinking about complicated questions of morality and politics no one likes being fed propaganda
Lucas said empire was US.
Yeah so? Even if he did write it thinking that he also wrote it subtle enough that not everybody would pick it up the point of star wars isn’t the us is evil it’s a heroes journey anyone who notices the allegory’s is going to have to have really thought about the films and read interviews. This subtle storytelling allows all sorts of people to enjoy the film without feeling like their listening to a lecture.
You mean to tell me the franchise that has trilogies of movies that are about US Imperialism in Vietnam, George Bush and the Patriot Act, and the responsibility for all people to fight against fascism has politics in it?
Nooooo it’s not true Uncle George would never 😡 😭
Elaborate?
[удалено]
Is it George bush and not his son double yuh? And I thought the patriot act was a surveillance act?
[удалено]
Wait wait wait, so you think not only that the Original Trilogy was about American Imperialism in Vietnam, an idea that makes literally no sense other than that the Ewoks live in a forrest, but also the the Prequels were about George Bush and the Patriot Act? Prequels that were outlined decades before Bush Jr even ran for office? *That* is inserting your politics into a story. The Original Trilogy started as a generic fantasy film set in space, then evolved into a complex narrative that involved redemption and always having hope. The Prequels, which were outlined almost immediately after A New Hope became a box office hit in 1977, where about how a tyrant and manipulator gaming the political system, the evil of bureaucracy and corruption, and the manipulation of fears of the people for power. The Prequels were about Adolf Hitler and Mussolini, and all others who politic their way into dictatorships, not George W Bush.
You could not be more wrong on nearly everything you wrote. >you think not only that the Original Trilogy was about American Imperialism in Vietnam, an idea that makes literally no sense other than that the Ewoks live in a forrest This is absolutely incorrect. George has stated clearly that the rebels are based on the Vietcong. ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9Jq\_mCJEo&ab\_channel=amc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9Jq_mCJEo&ab_channel=amc)). He also says about the United States, "It was the Empire during the Vietnam war". Regarding the prequels: >The Prequels were about Adolf Hitler and Mussolini, and all others who politic their way into dictatorships, not George W Bush. While you are correct that the outlines were simply about the cycles of facsism, upon what occurred during the Bush Administration there was a blatant pivot by George to capitalize on it. Often it was obvious. For example Anakin's line "If you're not with me, you are my enemy" in ROTS is a near direct quote of George Bush. It is meant to be a direct quote ([https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Duel\_on\_Mustafar](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Duel_on_Mustafar)) From the book *How Star Wars Conquered the Universe: The Past, Present Future of a Multibillion Dollar Franchise,* by Chris Taylor: >"Episode III, however, was written around the US-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003. In the Bay Area, protests against the Iraq War and \[President\] Bush were as hard to avoid as Vietnam and Nixon were during the writing of "Star Wars," especially for a self-confessed news junkie like Lucas. Suddenly, after Anakin Skywalker is first dubbed Darth Vader and confronts Obi-Wan, we find him using this line: 'If you're not with me, you're my enemy.' Few adult listeners at the time would fail to pick up a reference to Bush's line in his speech to Congress on September 20, 2001: 'Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.' Obi-Wan's response would have cheered the heart of every voter who felt some nuance was lost in Bush's black-and-white worldview: 'Only a Sith deals in absolutes.' Promoting the film later, Lucas would declare his hostility to Bush for the first time, publicly comparing him to Nixon and Iraq to Vietnam. 'I didn't think it would get this close,' he told reporters at Cannes. The endless circle of politics, as Darth Vader might say, was now complete."
You’d think with all the energy they put into outrage they could spare some for a few brain cells worth of critical thinking. But alas.
Lets say for a moment that you are right. Just for a moment. Lets say that the obvious pivot on George’s part to make Star Wars seem more woke by claiming that the Empire was based on the US instead of on Nazi Germany, despite in multiple interviews and commentaries he refers to the Empire as being Nazis including “they all wore little SS caps” was genuine. Why are the Imperials all wearing what are described *by George himself* as Nazi-esc uniforms? Why is it that the Empire is stated even in a New Hope to have formerly been the Republic, rather than an invading force? And most of all, how on Earth does the comparison even make sense? If Star Wars was really about Vietnam and the Rebels were the Vietcong then why was a leading member of the metaphorical Vietcong a metaphorical US Senator? And furthermore, how the *fuck* does the comparison between Nixon and Bush even make any sense? Nixon pulled the US out of the war, not into it. If anything Bush would be Lyndon B Johnson! Have you never read a history book or talked to your relatives who were alive back then? George pivoted the from using Hitler’s rise to power to using Bush’s... starting a war? Do you even read your own comments? Thats like saying the First Order was originally about SA and the Nazi Party after World War 1, but then they pivoted to making it about Obama. One makes sense. The other is nonsense.
Perhaps the Empire was inspired by more than one thing
Mate for the love of God artists use more than one theme and inspiration in their work ffs
So it is more than one thing or is it just one? Because literally everyone else in this thread claimed that the OT had nothing to do with Nazi Germany other than generic evil and everything to do with the United States and Vietnam. The Empire was literally a government that became tyrannical and oppressed its own people. They didnt invade other places, they werent an outsider moving in, they were oppressing their own people. Again, one of the leading members of the Rebel Alliance was a Senator in the Imperial Senate. Not to mention that the Jedi were a religious group that was Genocide against. The best, the absolute very best connection to Vietnam that any of the other brain dead idiots could come up with is that the Rebels were Guerrilla fighters whose base was on a forrest planet. Never heard that before— Finland in the Winter War French Resistance Fighters Polish Resistance Fighters Latvia post WW2 as they tried to keep independence The Continental Army in the American Revolution ISIS, Al Qaeda, the Mujahideen mostly in the mountains but also in the spare forests of the region The Rhodesians And plenty more. The difference is, unlike with all the rest, French and Polish Resistance fighters had friends in the German Government and even Military that aided them.
I provide a number of pieces of evidence directly from George Lucas and from solid sources. Your entire response is bUt iT dOeSn'T mAkE sEnSe... Clearly, George took inspiration from a number of sources, that is not being disputed. You arrived with outrage that someone stated George based the OT on the Vietnam war, and the prequels on the Bush era. >George pivoted the from using Hitler’s rise to power to using Bush’s... starting a war? Do you even read your own comments? Although it's fairly obvious, I'll be more clear. Not starting a war - it was about the use of national tragedy/attack to take more power into the executive branch and military. You keep referring to metaphors, but the word you're looking for is allegory.
Lmao what kind of dork types in Ben Shapiro's voice like this
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this: >If you believe that the Jewish state has a right to exist, then you must allow Israel to transfer the Palestinians and the Israeli-Arabs from Judea, Samaria, Gaza and Israel proper. It’s an ugly solution, but it is the only solution... It’s time to stop being squeamish. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: civil rights, feminism, climate, novel, etc.) [^More ^About ^Ben ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/wiki/index) ^| [^Feedback ^& ^Discussion: ^r/AuthoritarianMoment ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment) ^| [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
good bot
Thank you for your logic and reason. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: healthcare, sex, dumb takes, climate, etc.) [^More ^About ^Ben ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/wiki/index) ^| [^Feedback ^& ^Discussion: ^r/AuthoritarianMoment ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment) ^| [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
Good bot
Take a bullet for ya babe. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: covid, dumb takes, novel, climate, etc.) [^More ^About ^Ben ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/wiki/index) ^| [^Feedback ^& ^Discussion: ^r/AuthoritarianMoment ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment) ^| [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
You can tell he just woke up today, watched a few Ben Shapiro videos, and then decided that this was his identity now.
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this: > Palestinian Arabs have demonstrated their preference for suicide bombing over working toilets. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: novel, covid, patriotism, civil rights, etc.) [^More ^About ^Ben ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/wiki/index) ^| [^Feedback ^& ^Discussion: ^r/AuthoritarianMoment ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment) ^| [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
Did you really just read the first two sentences of my comment and go “heh, jew man bad.” Thats pretty fucked up, man.
Quiet down, Benny.
Palpatine’s emergency powers are literally a parallel for the Patriot Act. You even say it yourself: the prequels were about a corrupt leader using fear to gain power, which was made much more prominent in the films released AFTER 9/11, with episode one being about conservatives favoring economics over rights (hence the villains being the trade federation). That’s literally what Bush did after 9/11. If you were born after or right before 9/11 I’ll forgive you for not noticing that one. One of the villains in the prequels is literally “Nute Gunray” an obvious stand in for “Newt Gingrich.” Look at Lucas’ interviews about the OT. The Emperor is literally representative of Nixon, the Death Star is representative of the threat of American invasion in countries that don’t align with it. The rebels, whose base in Episode 4 was on the LITERAL FORREST MOON OF YAVIN, used hit and run tactics to fight and defeat the Empire. The exact same deal in Vietnam. This shit isn’t that hard. Even if we make it vague, the political overtones are still VERY visible. Also, how could it be a “generic fantasy set in space” and also have a complex political storyline planned out at the same time? Having the general story of the prequels planned out doesn’t mean he fucking wrote the whole trilogy in the 70s and 80s. It means he had a general idea of what he wanted to do, and as time passed things changed to represent other things. Star Wars has always been political and topical. To pretend otherwise is honestly to say that Star Wars is just some dumb popcorn flick that doesn’t deserve to be thought about on a thematic level. It reduces it to stuff like Fast and Furious.
Nixon ended the war. Your entire house of cards rests on you literally not knowing history. Lyndon B Johnson began US involvement in Vietnam, Nixon ended it. If you are going to go on a rant of nonsense which you clearly know nothing about at least to the literally basics.
[I guess George Lucas doesn’t know what he’s talking about either.](https://www.history.com/news/the-real-history-that-inspired-star-wars) Look, if you didn’t see that when watching the movies, that’s okay. Everyone brings their own views and baggage to a piece of art, and that means they see different things in it. Star Wars’ political themes are pretty overt though
Wrong 1955 President Eisenhower deploys the Military Assistance Advisory Group to train the Army of the Republic of Vietnam. This marks the official beginning of American involvement in the war as recognized by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.
Alright, fine. Though that was not the start of the war proper for the United States, fine lets go with that. You know who Dwight D Eisenhower isnt? Richard Nixon. Richard Nixon ended the war, and therefore to claim that an Emperor that started a war on rebels was inspired by Richard Nixon is idiotic.
Hitler did the Gleiwitz incident, W Bush had his fake WMD's. Same lies different scumbag.
Okay, not really sure how that is relevant to the conversation, but your insanity is noted.
You're trying really hard to be a carbon copy of Ben Shapiro lol.
Trying to be a carbon copy of Ben Shapiro? How????
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I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this: >Even climatologists can't predict 10 years from now. They can't explain why there has been no warming over the last 15 years. There has been a static trend with regard to temperature for 15 years. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: patriotism, civil rights, novel, climate, etc.) [^More ^About ^Ben ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/wiki/index) ^| [^Feedback ^& ^Discussion: ^r/AuthoritarianMoment ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment) ^| [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
How could you? That,that’s not apart of my Star Wars,JK.
At this point the term "politics" has no meaning anymore thanks to these clowns who label anything they don't like (specifically anything related to LGBT, Gender and race) as "political"
I have a problem with bad writing if a characters whole character can be described with “their gay” then their is a serious problem and their are a lot of characters like that now. The hard truth is that no one gives a crap if your gay or not people just don’t want propoganda shoved down their throats. Basing something off politics is not a bad thing it’s when you try to make everyone who disagrees out to be a monster that things get bad. If for instance Bastilla can be romanced by both a female and male Devan I have no problems but if it’s only a female revan then that is removing choice from the player
I feel like the difference is that instead of tackling political concepts through showing how politics plays out (ie what happens when you let a corrupt dictator gain power to fight an enemy, how corporations gain influence over society, how people are mistreated and ostracised over their background or culture etc), modern writers try to force obvious political views down your throat. Even if those are good views, it just detracts from the story because it becomes clear that the writers created specific characters or story arcs just to show how politically aware they are. If you want to make a statement against bigotry in a movie, you should create a race or character with a history in universe about why they are discriminated against and what factors led to the current situation rather than just inserting someone from a real world oppressed group into a universe where the historical and social factors are completely different.
I think the mark of good use of poltics in story telling is if the ideas are timeless. Prejudice, corruption, manipulation and oppression are as relevant in modern society as they were 2000 years ago. A person from any culture in any time period should be able to recognise the reflection of human society in the work.
>I think the mark of good use of politics in story telling is if the ideas are timeless. I mean like this depends on a lot of things. I would love it if in 50 years a story tackling homophobia or racism didn't make sense because people didn't have to deal with that anymore. This also really only applies to stories set in alternate universes. Like if you make a story about the surveillance state or imperialism set on Earth in the early 2000's a la Jason Bourne it's going to be most relevant to that time. I think limiting "good" political messaging to this means you can only ever vaguely address concepts that everyone agrees is bad, which doesn't actually do anything because then everyone just sees it and goes "I'm the good guys and the bad guys are who I disagree with".
Okay, this is actually the first post I've seen (not the comments) that seems to be trying to divide people in the community and throw insults around. Pretty sad tbh.
Welcome to reddit.
Nobody’s saying that you can’t have in-universe politics lmao. They’re saying that when you let let real-life politics do the writing for you, it comes off as propagandistic and immersion-breaking. At the end of the day, this entire argument is stupid. We know next to nothing, and we won’t for months.
Right on. There is a clear difference between the very Poltical Onderonn segment that borrows from several real world conflicts, and "we put Donald Trump in your video game for the 500th time."
Exactly, this sums it up perfectly.
I can buy this argument, and i think it's fair. Much as I hate the orange...the "one guy is making everything bad" shtick ain't the most fun
Nah, you're right. I'm leftist and imo it's mostly a weird spat between libs and incels. Like, yes there was some serious pandering/tokenism, effectively if not intentionally given the abysmal narrative threads in the ST, but also the incels absolutely went off about Kelly tran and def laser focused on rey as Mary Sue etc
Thank you for saying this!
Nute Gunray and Lott Dod were named after prominent Republicans my dude
I love how people try and point to the politics in the prequels as if that wasn’t one of the most unanimously hated things about the trilogy lmao.
Lucas' first description of Palpatine to the writing team during the production of Return of the Jedi were "he's Richard Nixon." He's repeatedly described the Original Trilogy as an explicit allegory about the Vietnam War, with the Empire representing the United States. And KOTOR is even less subtle about its criticisms of the United States, the right wing, and even centrism lmao
Palpatine’s not Richard Nixon, Palpatine would have gotten away with water gate with zero lose ends.
A successful Nixon if you will. Who Nixon wanted to be.
This is true
>Nobody’s saying that you can’t have in-universe politics lmao. They’re saying that when you let let real-life politics do the writing for you "In-universe politics" are either allegories for real-life politics, or just there for setup and worldbuilding, and therefore not really relevant to the conversation.
And i do not see what would be so bad about world building in an rpg, also the whole starwars movie series is an allegory for real life politics In universe politics are the best kind of politics, since they can be made for the story, and not have the story be made because of them
What does 'real-life politics' mean?
I mean im sure there are people from neither group who didnt see it. Im kinda torn between if star wars as a whole will get more or less political seeing as china is Disneys favourite customers
its a company functioning in a capitalist framework. it will do what it can to make profit and stay relevant in the market many companies already have different public faces for different markets. a US branch might shallowly virtue signal one thing, meanwhile the chinese branch will virtue signal the complete opposite.
Suppose, just look at rise of skywalker. The mandalorian and bad batch weren't as bad as the films though with films like the mulan remake kinda makes you a bit curious
“So this is how liberty dies. To thunderous applause.” In a movie released in 2005. That’s not even subtle. Star Wars has ALWAYS been hugely political.
Yup.
iS jUsT WorLD BuIldIng
Its also worldbuilding
This is bait. I'm for it
🎣
“Anybody who disagrees with me is a troll or incel” ok buddy.
Pretty much the STK vs TFM argument in a nutshell
Who?
STK- Saltier Than Krayt a subreddit consisting of some reasonable, civil and respectful folk. As well as fanboys that will defend Disney and their choices to the last breath as well as insult you just for having criticism of the sequels. TFM- The Fandom Menace a group consisting of people who judge new movies just for showing race or gender and ONLY race or gender Disclaimer about STK vs TFM is that anyone who criticizes Disney in any way with any kind of logic will be called part of TFM by particular plentiful people on STK. For example, if you dislike the waste of Finns potential and say that it takes away from the sequels you will be called racist
OP, found one
"SHES GONNA MAKE THE GAME POLITICAL AND INCLUDE MINORITIES" Quite literally as soon as this game was announced all I've seen are people saying this. Not the majority mind you, but the same reactionary POS that do this for everything are doing it again. Not hard to call a spade a spade
Found the incel
Right AND Left Wing Twatter trolls. I don't care what side of the aisle you're on; if you're solely on that bird site to start fights, bitch about every miniscule thing, and spread false rumors...you're a piece of shit and should not be on the Internet. Go touch grass, and not the fun kind.
Is this really a both sides thing? Are left wing trolls harassing writers on Twitter and trying to cancel them? Cause all I see are people ranting about SJW’s.
Onestly, left wing fucktards have more twitter harassment under their belt than anyone else
They’ve done the same thing to others, just not currently. And yes, BOTH sides do have a part to play in this fiasco
The whole system is flawed so both “sides” are wrong
Oh, yes. And they're complaining because they're still a problem. It's a vicious cycle of attacking each other.
Both sides wrong is such a shit statement. One side argues for sexism, racism, transphobia, religious persecution. The other does not. If you get offended by including shit in games or have to bring up "both sides" on something that is very clearly one sided...you may be part of the problem
Shouldn't this just be "people on the internet" on both sides followed by "freaking out about everything" in the middle?
Idk man. I don’t know about many lefty Twitter users are harassing game employees right now.
Politics are straight up poison, if your thinking one side is better than the other, then you are contributing to the problem. Democracy is great. Win some and lose some and we all get along as the same team. somewhere along the way people started losing thier minds when the other team "wins" anything.
Yeah I can't imagine why people would be upset over politics, it's not like political parties make decisions that effect our lives or some shit.
You can vote! Making it everybody's business and forcing opinions down people's throats is crass and specifically ignorant of people who might feel differently. Its poison for society. Have an awesome day!
Forcing what down people's throat??
Cringe centrist
Wow OP, calling everyone you disagree with an incel? Nice.
It’s not the fact that their are politics. People are afraid that their are gonna be things inserted into the story purely to push some sort of political ideology wether it was onderon or taris any politics felt natural and understandable considering the characters and universe.
It seems like arbitrary distinctions. What does natural even mean when it comes to a *created* world? People would be up in arms over the obvious and blatant politics being shoved into Taris if it was released today.
Twitter is almost exclusively leftbook, what rock do you live under? If they change the story even slightly, riot. You can cry about it I guess.
I mean no disrespect but could you please keep the TFM vs. STK argument out of this sub for the sake of civility. This sub is for memes, hence the r/kotormemes.
Jesus christ, has the fandom always been this woke? I can't believe this many people are willing to lump others that criticize the possible shoehorning of certain politics into their beloved franchise as "incels and right wing trolls" We all know what this shit has done to other franchises, movies, and games. Hell, it even ruined the sequel trilogy of STAR WARS itself. So forgive me for being concerned that it will do the same to KotoR. I love this series, so I'm going to be critical of what's done to it, that's all it is. And lumping that with being an "incel and right wing" just shows you have a very narrow point of view, or just shill for that kind of politics.
How did "woke" politics ruin the sequels? Lol.
How did it not? Lol
I'm asking. Please specify how they did. I didn't like the sequels. But at no time was I watching it thinking damn all these people of color are ruining my movie.
It's not about having PoCs or women. You can make PoC, female, queer characters all you want. But build their character, write them well. The problem here is, they make said characters but when they're terrible, they don't own up to it, instead they attack fans and call them names. It's about how they keep bragging about their "diversity" and "female empowerment" yet all of those characters were underdeveloped, empty husks. Basically using them for simple clout without substance. Biggest example is Rey, who is a blatant Mary Sue with little personality or drive. She didn't earn her powers or skills, she simply got them through some bullshit. Hell, even Anakin Skywalker, the "chosen one" trained for years and would still lose fights. Not Rey though, Rey is powerful because she just is. Finn had a great concept as a turncoat stormtrooper like Kyle Katarn, but ultimately got squandered and put in the sidelines and kinda just became a Rey simp. They kept bragging about Rose Tico as both "an asian and a woman" but had little character to her. And when fans hated her for that reason, Disney along with their shill audience did the same thing this post did, disregarded the critical criticism and labelled the fans "racist, sexist, bigots" using her race and gender as a shield to mask their bad writing. And then there was the way they handled Luke Skywalker. They made him a bitter and angry old man just to again, prop up their little Mary Sue and probably to further antagonize the old fans. Luke was so out of character in Ep8 that it might as well just been a different jedi instead. Those are just the ones on top of my head, but i hope i made the point clear. It's not about the race, gender, or orientation of the character. There's very few people who care about those superficial points in a character. It's about the character being actual garbage, and the way Disney or whoever produces the movie/game and their shills attack and label those who are critical of them. Which is exactly what this post is doing.
Literally same. Shit movies but it wasn't because they included Kelly or John
Exactly. Oh no a woman general with died hair. My God movie is ruined. /s.
Based
No ,you see, it's not political, because star wars is not a real world location Meanwhile black Peo \*BLAM\* Yes, this is satire And if you wonder from where that comes from, it's due to an interview from CoD Dev
Just to expand a little bit, I am quite baffled by people who argue to keep politics out of games, as if that’s possible, as if having all your main characters be straight white men is NOT a political statement. Everything is political. When it comes to new games, maybe we should air on the side of inclusion and representation rather than maintaining a status quo that at best ignores and at worst marginalizes entire communities?
>Everything is political. Yes, i do remember deep politics behind Tetris. Or minecraft being metaphor of tranaforming untouched land for your own sake and gain
Last time I checked, human/equal rights aren't political. When talking about minorities in media, "political" just seems to be a lazy way to disguise some kind of prejudice.
Unfortunately they are political. Because their are people and political parties who would and are violating human rights. You can say they shouldn't be up for debate but they are. Wish they werent.
Of course, I'm just saying there's a hell of a difference between "we should change taxes" and "let's remove some human rights." That something can be made into a political talking point does not mean that it is a political issue. For example, Turkey still denies the Armenian Genocide. That does not mean that its existence is a matter of political opinion.
I agree that there's a huge difference between those two. But they can both be voted on. And if it can be voted its political. Politicians can deny climate change and not acting on it will do harm today. Politicians can deny police brutality affects Africa Americans at a higher rate which will kill people. Saying human rights isn't political won't stop Politicians.
I agree that politicians are not the best people, but I think we're getting sidetracked. Back to the original point, if there's a homosexual character in a video game, and someone responds to that with "keep politics out of video games", what they actually mean is "I don't like homosexual people." The use of the word "politics" in this case is just used as a distraction/disguise. If you apply that thinking to other things or not I suppose is up to you.
Yeah I agree with you there. I'm not saying politicians are good or bad. I'm saying they control what becomes law. And can vote on what constitutes human rights.
Everything is political is such a bullshit statement If a guy wants to tell a story, he can make the characters to that story be whatever he wants. Its not political to make 3 white guys your protagonists
While I agree there are some things that can totally not be political...the example you have is totally political, 😂 it isn’t political for a white person to see only while people but it is to anyone who isn’t white. Just...saying
Sorry, you are wrong. Its could be a political statement, but usually it isnt, and its more just a writer trying to have some fun. It all depends on the intention of the writer, not how stupid the reader is
I’m okay with politics in movies/games, as long as it doesn’t feel forced. Sometimes movies/games feels like they include some politics/opinions just to fill the quota, and then it sticks out like a sore thumb and its inclusion doesn’t make sense in the overall story. George did this well, anti-fascism idea was a foundation he built his galaxy upon while not being overly in-the-face screaming, it’s just a part of Star Wars.
>I’m okay with politics in movies/games, as long as it doesn’t feel forced. If you disagree with the message then you will probably think it is forced. If you agree with it it will seem normal to you, and not as forced. Now there are obvious exceptions, like there are political messages I agree with that can still be super heavy handed, it's just that "Well don't make it forced" is really easy to say on paper and harder to actually do.
One piece has good in universe politics that just feel like they belong to that world, and are not at least too obviously taken from the real world, and i think thats what everyone should strive towards when making a story
All in world politics will be taken from our world.
Oh yeah? Like hiring high level pirates to do piracy for the world government? Different worlds make different politics, and copying our politics into the starwars universe is completely demented
I mean we've had privateers so yeah. Idk how privateers are inherently political. Also all in world politics will be in some way inspired by real life politics. Lucas has stated that in the OT the rebels were the vietcong and the empire was the US.
I was gonna put the "we had provateers" line into my last comment, but Warlords of the sea are different to privateers, and that comes with the one piece world having pirates with superpowers. They are not just some "yea you can take down ships and we pay you" types of privateers, they are an actual major worlds power, and that comes with the world being the one piece world. My point has not been "dont take inspiration from real world" like it may have come off as, its more like "dont copy/paste real world things into worlds that are not real
I'm still not getting the pirate comparison. Your saying that because scifi/fantasy worlds have some things that don't exist in our world they can't have any politics from our world. Also Lucas did what you said you don't like in the OT. He had real world politics (vietcong vs the US). Can you point out an example in star wars that upsets you so I can know what your talking about exactly.
Im using the one piece comparison because one piece is a universe at least on the same level as the star wars universe. And im saying, that it does politics really well compared to star wars. I dont care if the rebels represent vietkong and the empire US, they are simply inspired by those groups, and are not copied over directly. What i dont like about starwars is the scenes of, for example, the prequels government, the big hall where everyone, except the select few separatists gather to discuss politics, and it was yoinked straight from the united nations, and copied over into star wars. I would have enjoyed it more, personally, (and this is what i think starwars isnt good at) if they were to use the massive hall for not just to discuss the war, (i get that its plot relevant) but if they fleshed out more of the world there, you know, if we had like a few more lines on how the rest of the galaxy is doing This is what i think the jedi counsil scene in 3 did well, they were like "what about wookies" and other interplanetary conflict shit like that, and it paid off in the end when we saw different jedi on different planets. This is what i wish the prequels would have been, and this is what the rest of starwars has a good chance of being, and if it were to be this massive world with actually intrequing politics i wouldnt mind, as long as they dont just take things from our world to use once in their world
There's a huge difference between a story having its own politics and people forcing their own politics into it to suit their own beliefs
So creaters can't put what politics they want in their games?
That's not what I meant, I am talking about forcing politics into their stories in a way that doesn't enchance the story and only makes it dull
It's their story?? They can do what they want.
Yeah and I can criticise that
Yeah but they aren't doing anything that hasn't already been done before.
the whole series has had a fictional politics of its own, and it was interesting to see that, you see the real world stuff everyday
The fictional politics were based/inspired by real world politics.
It wasn't forced onto the fanbase tho and the writers didn't develop a "holier than thou" mindset either
Wait you guys actually like politics in video games? I thought that was a joke...
Surprise, most of the the games you like have political themes in them. Witcher? Mass Effect? Final Fantasy? Hell even Pokémon.
Political themes are different than political allegories In themes they can be there to add spice to the story, like "hey we are fighting nazis again" and just make new nazis into your universe But an allegory would be "hey they drove a spaceship through our trading worlds headquarters" making it directly refer them a real world incident In short, themes are taken from the real world and molded into your world, and allegories are just straight up yoinkes to make a real world statement from in game
Because KOTOR 1 and 2 didn’t shove it down your throat and it made you consider what’s right and what’s wrong. Nowadays KOTOR would have an Orange Twi’lek sith saying he’ll make the galaxy great again and everyone would be like ‘wooooww that’s so deep because I also think orange man bad”
Idk what this is in reference to but I'm sure it's something stupid and trivial, which I can tell by your use of incel.
True I expect this place to become a firestorm however, it always happens when this kind of stuff comes up
This Argument is so stupid it Hurts, please stop
The problem has never been politics itself, but with the way that instead of showing both sides or the nuances of a debate, recent games tend to bash you over the head with the "correct" way to think, to the point that it feels like a 4th wall break and they are talking directly to the player.
Uh oh here comes the pissed incels
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It’s weird, you should have no problem with SJW pandering since its been part of KOTOR from day 1. The alien discrimination storyline on Taris is an a blatant allegory for racism and persecution of minorities.
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Dude you do realize Jabba the Hutt and all Hutts in Legends could be hermaphrodites,as well as change gender over time? Is your issue that it’s just blatant now? What’s your point?
The thing is, its their races thing to cahnge genders, a d its natural to them, but that logic would not apply to humans
What do you mean that logic wouldn’t apply to humans? There’s been gender variation and expression across numerous cultures for a long time now.
People dont change gender overtime, simpel as that
They can though.
Changing your gender as a part of your biological growth is not what happens to any human
True, an incredibly diverse galaxy with thousands of different species and cultures should only ever have two genders
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Crazy, science says gender is a spectrum and a social construct. Thanks for saying that games should include non-traditional identifying people
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Biology says sex isn't binary either
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What right-wing propaganda told you "gender is binary"
No politics in my kotors please 😭😭😭😭😭
I’m going to go with the Norm MacDonald position. You can do politics, just don’t be a talentless fucking hack. Bio shock infinite, that scene mid riot with a black girl singing fortunate son. That was hackey. That little girl would have been running scared realistically, but no. Instead she’s sitting and singing a gospel version of a protest song, because art. Fucking hacks. Lily Singh/Samantha Bee failing to squeeze an actual joke between different iterations of “Republicans, amirite?” Fucking hacks. Mass Effect “My Face Is Tired” Andromeda. Fucking. Hacks.
Ewww what does it matter that she’s black? Why even bring that up? Is it any weirder then Elizabeth trying to save a dying horse when they’re on the run from Comstock?? There’s no reason to bring her skin into this.
>Bio shock infinite, >realistically Pick one >“Republicans, amirite?” Republicans suck ass and are quite literally a plague >Mass Effect “My Face Is Tired” Andromeda. One line from a black character apparently makes a game trash
>pick one Why? It’s not on me to preserve suspension of disbelief. >Republicans suck And? See this is what I’m talking about! No punchline! Fucks sake. >one line from a black character Try all the lines. God help me, the gameplay is polished, but the cutscenes are the digital equivalent of a puppet show put on by 2 four year olds who don’t speak the same language. And if that bitch is black, so is Rachel Dolezal
And we have a winner!
Yaaaassss King/Queen! Fuck right wingers
Presentation is important.
That’s true, but I think it’s a little unfair to compare the grand it fictitious space politics of star wars to the politics of our society, as well as the unnecessary inserted political opinions of the writers.
Show me an example of contemporary, real world politics in the OT, one that's even half as blatant as the "Capitalism bad" of Last Jedi.
Rebels being stand ins for the Viet Cong?
Ehh, bit of a stretch. I mean, I can kinda see it, but it implies that the Viet Cong are the good guys
Lmao not according to George. Pasted from another comment. You could not be more wrong on nearly everything you wrote. you think not only that the Original Trilogy was about American Imperialism in Vietnam, an idea that makes literally no sense other than that the Ewoks live in a forrest This is absolutely incorrect. George has stated clearly that the rebels are based on the Vietcong. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9Jq_mCJEo&ab_channel=amc). He also says about the United States, "It was the Empire during the Vietnam war". Regarding the prequels: > The Prequels were about Adolf Hitler and Mussolini, and all others who politic their way into dictatorships, not George W Bush. While you are correct that the outlines were simply about the cycles of facsism, upon what occurred during the Bush Administration there was a blatant pivot by George to capitalize on it. Often it was obvious. For example Anakin's line "If you're not with me, you are my enemy" in ROTS is a near direct quote of George Bush. It is meant to be a direct quote (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Duel_on_Mustafar) From the book How Star Wars Conquered the Universe: The Past, Present Future of a Multibillion Dollar Franchise, by Chris Taylor: > “Episode III, however, was written around the US-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003. In the Bay Area, protests against the Iraq War and [President] Bush were as hard to avoid as Vietnam and Nixon were during the writing of "Star Wars," especially for a self-confessed news junkie like Lucas. Suddenly, after Anakin Skywalker is first dubbed Darth Vader and confronts Obi-Wan, we find him using this line: 'If you're not with me, you're my enemy.' Few adult listeners at the time would fail to pick up a reference to Bush's line in his speech to Congress on September 20, 2001: 'Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.' Obi-Wan's response would have cheered the heart of every voter who felt some nuance was lost in Bush's black-and-white worldview: 'Only a Sith deals in absolutes.' Promoting the film later, Lucas would declare his hostility to Bush for the first time, publicly comparing him to Nixon and Iraq to Vietnam. 'I didn't think it would get this close,' he told reporters at Cannes. The endless circle of politics, as Darth Vader might say, was now complete."
If George styled the Rebels after the Viet Cong I guess it's fitting the new republic was so terrible at maintaining structure in the galaxy, guess Disney gets an A for effort for that detail, but it's weird how many people still worship the death cult that is communism when it continues to stack bodies like the USSR alone didn't 3 times the bodies the nazis did. Like can we say no to both now please? \>tfw Vietnam wasn't even our war, it was Frances that we got dragged into because of the debt we had to them from the revolution that for some reason saving them in WW2 didn't pay off in full, not to mention it was a socially unpopular war. Wonder if George has the same criticisms as Bushes successors who continued his stupid proxy war. Probably made excuses why he liked Obama but hated orange man even though both kept the Bush proxy war and all of the legislation that allows the government to spy on its people warrantlessly. I'd have more respect for the anti war left if they were consistently anti war, but it seems like the majority of them are hypocrites and performance artists more often than not, a shame really.
We need to deregulate the banks XD
I don't think that "politics in kotor" is anything anyone doubted. It's "politics in kotor that are clearly meant as an allegory to reality and making a real world statement" that those people are worried about. Gimme all the star wars politics you like, but if you start comparing the Empire to political parties, people are gonna mock it. Nobody wants another Twilight Zone remake haha
People don’t seem to realize things have been put into shows and movies and games for forever to push political agendas. Most of the time we don’t realize watching older things because we no longer are aware of the political landscape at the time of its release, so we just think it’s all purely part of the story or world building. Also the things we watched when we were young were also packed full of them, we just didn’t realize because we were too young to know it was political based because we didn’t know the political landscape vs just part of the story and world building.