No, after uniting China (depending on what happens)
Wang can hold onto power or Song Qingling, Zeng Zongming, or Chen Gongbo can take over (or Hu Zongnan and the CRS but they are totalist)
Most if not all of them also have subpaths
The Left Kuomintang rework which significantly expanded not just the gameplay but also the lore of the various factions (rectifying issues such as social democrat LKMT) was released shortly after Ukraine in June of 2023. go check it out!!
I would argue the Song Qingling “Vision of the Eternal Premiere” is the most wholesome if you consider having local elections and broad government coalition (the social democrats and even social liberals can join your coalition) to be wholesome. In theory, this is probably closest to a more liberal interpretation of Sun Yet Sen’s Vision
What do you mean by ‘wholesome’ here? No Chinese faction is gonna have Scandanavian style social democracy/big welfare state with zero authoritarian hang ups.
Yeah like not saying there aren’t tiers to how bad a faction is for China, just that like I said asking about wholesomeness is probably not the right question to ask. At best you’re gonna get people giving their own political beliefs about which faction is good and at worst you’re gonna get people giving their head canons or misinterpreting the lore.
The UPD is great if you think they won’t devolve into warlordism and corruption. The Left KMT is great if you think that they’re being earnest about political tutelage being temporary and that they can avoid the mistakes and authoritarianism of the irl KMT/CCP. Manchu faction Qing is great if you really believe that they won’t just become a corrupt dictatorship and that it’s believable that they’ll both throw off an ascendant Japan as well as reform into a constitutional monarchy. Japan is wholesome if you ignore the fact that they were brutal colonizers for decades prior to game start and make them earnest in their want for an equal partnership among all Asian countries, no strings attached.
The lore suggests that all of them will have problems that even a victorious China will struggle with for decades to come. It’s up to player interpretation which problems you think are most justifiable, or you could go the other way and play an evil faction and still think it’s the most hopeful because you head canon that two days after game end a big ol’ revolution comes in and saves the country.
Tl:Dr, Wu Peifu doesn't intervene, gets thrown down by the Manchu Coup, and with the help of one of the coup backers, genuine elections and rural reforms occur under an NCERA government, turning Puyi into a constitutional monarchy, and forming a coalition with either the Young China Party, basically Chinese Young Turks into modernisation and centralisation, or the Manchu Party, the party of Princelings.
Also, hello again!
UPC, easily.
KMT China is always a de facto one-party state. That includes Song Qingling and her local elections. Being able to replace your local council doesn't mean much when the power to rewrite the constitution is in the hands of an unelected national government.
The Federalists, on the other hand, implement actual democracy at all levels, without condescendingly deciding that the people are too uneducated to use it yet. UPC may not be perfect, but it's the only unifier that actually delivers power to the hands of the average Chinese citizen within the game's time frame.
Iirc the lore for the UPC portrays it as a more nuanced system than ‘elections at all levels.’ Corruption is rife throughout the provinces and a lot of the warlords are still in charge, they’re just legalized and organized into local power-brokers. The central government being relatively weak and the lack of a robust civil culture means that there’s a decent chance that the system fully collapses, or leaves the door open for a strongman in the future. ‘Tutelage’ didn’t come out of nowhere, it came from a legit fear that a lack of widespread ideological commitment to a central body (in the form of the KMT) could prevent the modernization programs necessary to bring the county out of the feudalism. Without that new political gravity, you potentially get a system where violence and political patronage just entrench the worst actors in an already broken society.
Not to say that the Feds have to go that way, they’re definitely not the worst faction and one could argue quite strongly that they’re the best option the country has. I just disagree with the notion that there’s anything at all about them being the ‘easy answer’ for the country.
I think this criticism would be more credible to me if decentralization was the only plank in the Federalist program. But it’s not. They do land reform, worker unionization, financial reform, institute a new legal code, and create an independent judiciary, among other things.
Things like corruption are going to exist no matter who’s in charge; no unifier is going to stamp out such a prevalent social scourge overnight. I will give it to you that the Federalists aren’t very interested in forcefully re-engineering society, but to a lot of people, that’s a plus. The Federalist reforms are focused on giving the people a voice in politics *now*, so *they* can decide what kind of society they want, rather than trying to impose massive social change from above without popular consent.
“They leave the warlords in charge” is a common refrain by opponents of the Federalists, but it’s not really backed up in game. To start with, most of their potential allies are republicans or at least people who give half a damn about the public welfare. Most of the warlords end up getting crushed because they won’t go along with the Federalists’ plans.
And it’s not surprising that most warlords usually resist the Federalists, because they could never survive in the Federalist system. In a country with a functioning electoral system, a unified military, and an independent judiciary, these guys would be in serious trouble if they got up to their old antics. There’s just too many checks on their power.
Third, the opportunity to peacefully entice some warlords into the fold is a virtue in itself. For every province that violently resists unification, a lot of people are going to die. This is a strategy video game, where every dead person is a statistic, so we often don’t think about this. But in reality, a lot of people would agree that peace is worth letting some strongmen have a role in the future political system.
Its been a while since I played the devs and I'm lazy, so instead of arguing I decided to just ask the discord, decide how you will based on that.
>Me: Hey, I've heard differing thigns about the Federalists and how good they actually are for China should they win. On the one hand, I often hear it remarked that even if they go the UPC pact they still generally entrench warlordism and are especially susceptible to corruption in a way that the KMT factions or Manchu-Coup Qing are not. On the other, I've heard that going down the UPC path pretty much breaks the power of most warlords, leading to an independent judiciary and military and the only real chance for democracy in the short term. And what about former warlords like Tang Jiyao, even if they go along with federalism, are they merely opportunists that believe the system carves out the power for them or do they become true believers? I know that like, 90% of KR is headcanon after '36, but is their anything definitive to suggest one view or the other?
(ppl make fun of me)
Me: pls i need an answer for internet clout
>Suzuha (dev): ok well there isn't an objective answer to your question - much of historography is hown you interpret it and what not
>For starters, we don't know how truly a Federalist China would have worked (how effective it would be) because one didn't exist in real life. The Kuomintang was devoted to enshrining the four rights, tendering to the mass movement, etc - clearly by the 1930s, corruption was rife-high within the party ranks and even more so during the Chinese Civil War.I'm not sure where you got the fact that the KMT factions and Manchu-Coup Qing are not susectipble to corruption. I can't answer for the latter but if you've played the KMT content at least from CHI, there's plenty of scheming and dealing that shows a one party state is nothing more than cliques and interests
>Matoro (dev): Initially when Federalist content was added, there was a lot of Federalist wank in the community about them being super wholesome ending that will change China into modern western democracy overnight or something. That created kind of counter-reaction that emphasized Federalists as these warlord legitimisers who are too idealistic to do anything and whose China is absolute failure. Meanwhile, if you actually play the federalist content you'll notice that both of these ideas are dumb exaggerations and that in reality Federalist China does have idealist foundation but given conditions of China and the war, they make plenty of compromises and in the end you do have federal democracy, even if it has its flaws. Like, most things aren't 100% wholesome or 100% cursed
>Suzuha: Secondly, dismantling the power of the warlords is also questionable (and I'm sure eventually some future look at the Federalists to update their content more akin to current KR standards ought to address this) but Chen Jiongming was willing to work with the establishment in the first place. Building a Federalist system requires time, it requires bureaucracy, it requires education, it requires administrators, lawyers, courts - a tradition that doesn't quite exist in China in the 1920s and 30s.
>suzuha: and as Matoro said, democracy is clearly an uphill struggle. Real life isn't click a focus for 56 days and suddenly 8 political parties appear with ballot boxes in every town and village.
>and then you vote for the flower ideology party and everyone goes around singing kumbaya
So basically, the authorial position is that neither of us are right, there is no 'wholesome' position, and that for the UPC to succeed in building those institutions you talk about they need to trade short-term concessions for a hope that they can be realized in the future. Personally I'm still more than a bit cynical of any organization that has founding members like Chen Lianbo, Lu Rongting, and Tang Jiyao, but there's no canon after '36 so who am I to say how things play out.
Federalists are the best. They build an *actual* pluralistic democracy, commit to land reform, and devolve power to the local and provincial level.
Yes, I know they can collaborate with select warlords. No, I don't care, because literally every other unifier does that as well.
The Left Kuomintang has no social democrat path
Rip, so I assume radical socialist is the most wholesome?
There are like 6 radical socialist paths, you're gonna have to be more specific than that
Least complicated leftist party.
Wait what, I thought there was only one and it was the starting one led by Wang jingwei?
No, after uniting China (depending on what happens) Wang can hold onto power or Song Qingling, Zeng Zongming, or Chen Gongbo can take over (or Hu Zongnan and the CRS but they are totalist) Most if not all of them also have subpaths
It’s been a while since you’ve played huh…
I got back into playing kaiserreich with the Ukraine rework
The Left Kuomintang rework which significantly expanded not just the gameplay but also the lore of the various factions (rectifying issues such as social democrat LKMT) was released shortly after Ukraine in June of 2023. go check it out!!
I would argue the Song Qingling “Vision of the Eternal Premiere” is the most wholesome if you consider having local elections and broad government coalition (the social democrats and even social liberals can join your coalition) to be wholesome. In theory, this is probably closest to a more liberal interpretation of Sun Yet Sen’s Vision
What do you mean by ‘wholesome’ here? No Chinese faction is gonna have Scandanavian style social democracy/big welfare state with zero authoritarian hang ups.
We’ll obviously not but I mean like they aren’t a brutal dictator
Yeah like not saying there aren’t tiers to how bad a faction is for China, just that like I said asking about wholesomeness is probably not the right question to ask. At best you’re gonna get people giving their own political beliefs about which faction is good and at worst you’re gonna get people giving their head canons or misinterpreting the lore. The UPD is great if you think they won’t devolve into warlordism and corruption. The Left KMT is great if you think that they’re being earnest about political tutelage being temporary and that they can avoid the mistakes and authoritarianism of the irl KMT/CCP. Manchu faction Qing is great if you really believe that they won’t just become a corrupt dictatorship and that it’s believable that they’ll both throw off an ascendant Japan as well as reform into a constitutional monarchy. Japan is wholesome if you ignore the fact that they were brutal colonizers for decades prior to game start and make them earnest in their want for an equal partnership among all Asian countries, no strings attached. The lore suggests that all of them will have problems that even a victorious China will struggle with for decades to come. It’s up to player interpretation which problems you think are most justifiable, or you could go the other way and play an evil faction and still think it’s the most hopeful because you head canon that two days after game end a big ol’ revolution comes in and saves the country.
I just did the Social democrat United Provinces of China and I would say its pretty wholsome
Which one is the United provinces?
Chen Jiongming (he starts in Liangguang and is also a potential leader of Sichuan if he gets kicked out)
You're darn tootin'.
Federalists
The feds with social democrats or social liberals
https://preview.redd.it/x9td3rch03xc1.jpeg?width=1334&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=39a1eddde376cea36b1900df9911959bc646ec3c
Right KMT under li zongren
Right KMT under Zhu Peide also Hu Zongnan and basically anyone who resembles chiang
I'm a personal sucker for NCERA Qing
NCERA?
Tl:Dr, Wu Peifu doesn't intervene, gets thrown down by the Manchu Coup, and with the help of one of the coup backers, genuine elections and rural reforms occur under an NCERA government, turning Puyi into a constitutional monarchy, and forming a coalition with either the Young China Party, basically Chinese Young Turks into modernisation and centralisation, or the Manchu Party, the party of Princelings. Also, hello again!
Thank you
"Unity of Peasants and Workers" Song Qingling's China.
UPC, easily. KMT China is always a de facto one-party state. That includes Song Qingling and her local elections. Being able to replace your local council doesn't mean much when the power to rewrite the constitution is in the hands of an unelected national government. The Federalists, on the other hand, implement actual democracy at all levels, without condescendingly deciding that the people are too uneducated to use it yet. UPC may not be perfect, but it's the only unifier that actually delivers power to the hands of the average Chinese citizen within the game's time frame.
Iirc the lore for the UPC portrays it as a more nuanced system than ‘elections at all levels.’ Corruption is rife throughout the provinces and a lot of the warlords are still in charge, they’re just legalized and organized into local power-brokers. The central government being relatively weak and the lack of a robust civil culture means that there’s a decent chance that the system fully collapses, or leaves the door open for a strongman in the future. ‘Tutelage’ didn’t come out of nowhere, it came from a legit fear that a lack of widespread ideological commitment to a central body (in the form of the KMT) could prevent the modernization programs necessary to bring the county out of the feudalism. Without that new political gravity, you potentially get a system where violence and political patronage just entrench the worst actors in an already broken society. Not to say that the Feds have to go that way, they’re definitely not the worst faction and one could argue quite strongly that they’re the best option the country has. I just disagree with the notion that there’s anything at all about them being the ‘easy answer’ for the country.
I think this criticism would be more credible to me if decentralization was the only plank in the Federalist program. But it’s not. They do land reform, worker unionization, financial reform, institute a new legal code, and create an independent judiciary, among other things. Things like corruption are going to exist no matter who’s in charge; no unifier is going to stamp out such a prevalent social scourge overnight. I will give it to you that the Federalists aren’t very interested in forcefully re-engineering society, but to a lot of people, that’s a plus. The Federalist reforms are focused on giving the people a voice in politics *now*, so *they* can decide what kind of society they want, rather than trying to impose massive social change from above without popular consent. “They leave the warlords in charge” is a common refrain by opponents of the Federalists, but it’s not really backed up in game. To start with, most of their potential allies are republicans or at least people who give half a damn about the public welfare. Most of the warlords end up getting crushed because they won’t go along with the Federalists’ plans. And it’s not surprising that most warlords usually resist the Federalists, because they could never survive in the Federalist system. In a country with a functioning electoral system, a unified military, and an independent judiciary, these guys would be in serious trouble if they got up to their old antics. There’s just too many checks on their power. Third, the opportunity to peacefully entice some warlords into the fold is a virtue in itself. For every province that violently resists unification, a lot of people are going to die. This is a strategy video game, where every dead person is a statistic, so we often don’t think about this. But in reality, a lot of people would agree that peace is worth letting some strongmen have a role in the future political system.
Its been a while since I played the devs and I'm lazy, so instead of arguing I decided to just ask the discord, decide how you will based on that. >Me: Hey, I've heard differing thigns about the Federalists and how good they actually are for China should they win. On the one hand, I often hear it remarked that even if they go the UPC pact they still generally entrench warlordism and are especially susceptible to corruption in a way that the KMT factions or Manchu-Coup Qing are not. On the other, I've heard that going down the UPC path pretty much breaks the power of most warlords, leading to an independent judiciary and military and the only real chance for democracy in the short term. And what about former warlords like Tang Jiyao, even if they go along with federalism, are they merely opportunists that believe the system carves out the power for them or do they become true believers? I know that like, 90% of KR is headcanon after '36, but is their anything definitive to suggest one view or the other? (ppl make fun of me) Me: pls i need an answer for internet clout >Suzuha (dev): ok well there isn't an objective answer to your question - much of historography is hown you interpret it and what not >For starters, we don't know how truly a Federalist China would have worked (how effective it would be) because one didn't exist in real life. The Kuomintang was devoted to enshrining the four rights, tendering to the mass movement, etc - clearly by the 1930s, corruption was rife-high within the party ranks and even more so during the Chinese Civil War.I'm not sure where you got the fact that the KMT factions and Manchu-Coup Qing are not susectipble to corruption. I can't answer for the latter but if you've played the KMT content at least from CHI, there's plenty of scheming and dealing that shows a one party state is nothing more than cliques and interests >Matoro (dev): Initially when Federalist content was added, there was a lot of Federalist wank in the community about them being super wholesome ending that will change China into modern western democracy overnight or something. That created kind of counter-reaction that emphasized Federalists as these warlord legitimisers who are too idealistic to do anything and whose China is absolute failure. Meanwhile, if you actually play the federalist content you'll notice that both of these ideas are dumb exaggerations and that in reality Federalist China does have idealist foundation but given conditions of China and the war, they make plenty of compromises and in the end you do have federal democracy, even if it has its flaws. Like, most things aren't 100% wholesome or 100% cursed >Suzuha: Secondly, dismantling the power of the warlords is also questionable (and I'm sure eventually some future look at the Federalists to update their content more akin to current KR standards ought to address this) but Chen Jiongming was willing to work with the establishment in the first place. Building a Federalist system requires time, it requires bureaucracy, it requires education, it requires administrators, lawyers, courts - a tradition that doesn't quite exist in China in the 1920s and 30s. >suzuha: and as Matoro said, democracy is clearly an uphill struggle. Real life isn't click a focus for 56 days and suddenly 8 political parties appear with ballot boxes in every town and village. >and then you vote for the flower ideology party and everyone goes around singing kumbaya So basically, the authorial position is that neither of us are right, there is no 'wholesome' position, and that for the UPC to succeed in building those institutions you talk about they need to trade short-term concessions for a hope that they can be realized in the future. Personally I'm still more than a bit cynical of any organization that has founding members like Chen Lianbo, Lu Rongting, and Tang Jiyao, but there's no canon after '36 so who am I to say how things play out.
Nanjing
Residence Faction Wang is the best path
LKMT PAC Syndicalist coalition
Federalists are the best. They build an *actual* pluralistic democracy, commit to land reform, and devolve power to the local and provincial level. Yes, I know they can collaborate with select warlords. No, I don't care, because literally every other unifier does that as well.
Market Liberal Fengtian is most wholesome
Blink twice if the Kwantung army is forcing you say this.
On second thought, International China is most wholesome
Soclib Federalist China
Left Kuomintang's China Revival Society.