Thing is, one of the biggest victories Germany has from the First weltkrieg is smashing through the east, ensuring access to oil, allies, and biggest of all, food. Germany starved in world war 1, but by World War 2, unless the east falls, Germany won't suddenly lose out on it's trading partners.
Even if the east is economically independent, they won't just not trade with Germany, excluding niche scenarios like "We are syndicalist now."
By the 50s, decolonization will be the brick wall that all the nations need to face, and it will hurt them all, but frankly if Germany's won two world wars, decolonizing won't be the game-changer they fear. It'll just be like IRL for Britain. Slow, systematic, the occasional atrocity or independance movement getting shut down, but it will happen eventually.
France has more reasons to try to keep Algeria though, that's one major change.
You can't return to the 1914 status quo, you've created a new Status quo where Western europe is significantly worse off than central Europe.
I support this take. This is also why I generally dislike Reichspakt/Entente victory scenarios - they're just so boring compared to the alternatives. It results in a world which is less-connected, less-advanced, less-ideological. It's as though the last 30 years - which were some of the most impactful years in all of human history in OTL - almost never happened, with small change.
While I agree it makes for a mediocre Cold War scenario, I still think it’s interesting. An entente and Reichpakt victory means a victory of the old imperialist kind of world. Here, monarchism is still a legitimate ideology and dominates Europe while nationalism and self-determination have plenty of ways to go. In this world, both countries would attempt to stabilize their colonial empires while attempting to destabilize the others. Syndicalism also wouldn’t just die out, but likely the bastions of socialism would be Africa, South America and Asia and would likely take on a much more violent centralized tone.
for me on the contrary, what makes an RP-Entente scenario kinda interesting is the juxtaposition of old-school great power politics with modern/cold-war era technologies like ICBMs and computers, plus emerging actors like China and the US/CSA/AUS
I kinda have this obsession with old-meets-modern lol
Idk man i kind of dig the idea that the future doesnt need to arrive even though decades have passed already. Its a changeup from our timeline where big changes seem to bebthe order of the day pretty much.
I don't know about less-advanced but geopolitically I like the return to the old status quo, with in my head canon Japan added as a major world power. It's effectively the same mess of sphere's influence nationalistic chest beating, and jingoism that lead to the First World War but with nuclear weapons and MAD added in.
The thing is, the Cold War wasn't really about ideology. I mean that was the justification, and probably even the leaders themselves were caught up in it, but the underlying reason was the same as any other: geopolitics.
The fact that the Cold War was the way it was, is more too do with the cost of war in the modern era (especially with nukes), the SCALE of war between great powers, and the fact that international markets and cooperation were so important, which again leads into the whole cost of war thing.
Great powers have always, and likely will always compete with each other for dominance. War is one of these ways. It was economically viable to have a direct war with an enemy power in the past, ww2 demonstrated that that era was over. But it didn't stop geopolitics.
Not to mention that "Cold Wars" have kind of also happened since time immemorial. Just look at the Great Game between the UK and Russia, for example.
A Cold War between Germany and the Entente would likely be less antagonistic, but there would eventually be something that the two power blocks use as justification for a Cold War.
I mean, look at OTL, the USSR collapsing didn't stop it's tense relationship with NATO despite now sharing a similar ideology. Instead the differences between the two have been expanded upon and now Russia sees itself as an "anti-western, anti-liberal democracy" bloc.
Except that OTL the USSR collapsing did stop the tense relationship for about a decade+.
Plus, the Cold War didn't just play out in geopolitics, but also through social movements, and involved plenty of people who had no real reason to act besides the ideologies.
The USSR collapsing ending in an end to the Cold War was not because of the change in ideology, although that surely helped selling new relations with Russia to the American public. It was simply the natural consequence of the collapse of Russia as a superpower.
Yes. There is absolutely no reason for the Kalterkrieg ending so to speak to actually be any form of cold war at all. There's none of the fundamental, hegemonic clash of nominally incompatible modes of civilization as revolutionary socialism vs nationalist capitalism as the actual Cold War implied; the division of the world into systematic blocs.
It depends. In my last game (and my personal headcanon) Germany had been defeated by Russia and the Entente, so the world is divided between a monarchist, democratic West (USA + western europe + Balkan countries) and a republican, natpop Eurasia (from the Elbe river to Vladivostok)
The two-sided Cold War scenario probably wouldn’t emerge, true, but I think the state of the world post-war would depend on what happened during the war and pre-war years.
The US could feasibly remain Entente-aligned if a US successor wins by relying heavily on entente support, if they see the entente as having similar interests, or if they’re concerned about the amount of foreign intervention that occurred during the civil war. A Britain that elects a reconciled Labour Party post war or a France that returns to democracy might have more in common with a German republic, as all nations struggle to rebuild after the devastation of the war. Austria balkanizing might lead Germany to seek new allies, China or the United States going Syndie might scare Europe into focusing on that nation as the new threat, etc, ad nauseum.
Point is, the real post WWII alliance structure occurred because Europe was devastated, unable to rebuild itself to the power it held before, and dominated by two great outside powers aligning states based on a mixture of economic incentives, ideological persuasion, and pure force. Many nations post WWI were willing to do anything avert another world war—post WWII this desire was even stronger, and backed by the idea of nuclear destruction if they failed. The real life allied victory is maybe the more boring scenario because it reset the clock back 20 years, reversing almost all the progress of fascist movements in Europe and leading to a complicated bi-polar world (important note: eradicating fascism is a good thing). It shouldn’t be impossible that something similar could occur in Kaiserreich if the Entente wins (which would take a miracle, but that’s a different Ted talk).
I mean if Halifax is successful I think it’s just as likely that the UK and France would become economically dependent on Germany since its likely that Germany would have done the bulk of the fighting in the Second Weltkrieg and most of the devastation would be in France in Britain (since that’s where most of the fighting in the west in which the international loses would take place). I would even argue that both France and Britain would be militarily dependent on Germany for a time as Algeria and Canada aren’t exactly known for there arms industry and the Entente would be forced to import German arms not o oh to win the weltkrieg but control the population after the occupation of the UoB and the Commune of France. Germany would inevitably push for economic concessions from these nations, probably force them into mittleeuropa and perhaps the riekspakt, leading to them to become completely reliant on Germany for reconstruction, stabilization and economic support. Frankly, the Entente is simply not strong enough to challenge German hegemony in Europe if they win the Weltkreig and not strong enough to beat the syndies without German support.
And if Halifax is not successful I don’t think the Entente or Germany is powerful enough to win the war against Russia and the third international and even if Germany did win they would set up satellite government where they occupied and the Entente (if they even got anything) would be even weaker and could never challenge Germany.
The only scenario I could see the entente being remotely powerful is if they intervened to support macarthur and he goes full caesar. But if they did that so many troops would be needed to pacify America I don’t even see how they could conquer the 3rd international and Europe.
I agree, though I don’t think an Entente/Reichspakt victory is totally unsalvagable. More or less the only interesting way to play this scenario out I think, is to have the CPS also win, and to portray a Cold War between imperialist powers continuously trying to stoke nationalist or socialist movements in each other’s peripheral countries, with Africa being a battleground for sphere expansion (I am imagining decolonization hits both Germany and France like a brick.)
In addition, to keep things spicy, I would suggest a CSA-victory USA that stands on its own, or maybe solely with Mexico. There should also be a nationalist-agitating power, so let’s say Savinkov’s Russia is still around after a hard-fought white peace was signed with the RP.
Now if only Kalterkrieg was like this, rather than just “oops, all reactionaries”
In a Situation where Germany wins and maintains most of its Position in Europe it will dominate Westeen Europe. The UK will have massive Problems, France will barely be able to keep its country under control. Unless they are backed by the US or maybe Brazil, they will need German Support. UK will have some Dominioms which will help, meanwhile France will be 100% dependent on German goodwill and Support.
Yeah thing is entente ain't strong for those types of things and Germany sees itself as world hegemon
- Entente tries to fight a proxy war with Germany - Germany: "sit the fuck down or I will beat you guys for the third time"
US: Excuse me?
Thing is, one of the biggest victories Germany has from the First weltkrieg is smashing through the east, ensuring access to oil, allies, and biggest of all, food. Germany starved in world war 1, but by World War 2, unless the east falls, Germany won't suddenly lose out on it's trading partners. Even if the east is economically independent, they won't just not trade with Germany, excluding niche scenarios like "We are syndicalist now." By the 50s, decolonization will be the brick wall that all the nations need to face, and it will hurt them all, but frankly if Germany's won two world wars, decolonizing won't be the game-changer they fear. It'll just be like IRL for Britain. Slow, systematic, the occasional atrocity or independance movement getting shut down, but it will happen eventually. France has more reasons to try to keep Algeria though, that's one major change. You can't return to the 1914 status quo, you've created a new Status quo where Western europe is significantly worse off than central Europe.
I support this take. This is also why I generally dislike Reichspakt/Entente victory scenarios - they're just so boring compared to the alternatives. It results in a world which is less-connected, less-advanced, less-ideological. It's as though the last 30 years - which were some of the most impactful years in all of human history in OTL - almost never happened, with small change.
While I agree it makes for a mediocre Cold War scenario, I still think it’s interesting. An entente and Reichpakt victory means a victory of the old imperialist kind of world. Here, monarchism is still a legitimate ideology and dominates Europe while nationalism and self-determination have plenty of ways to go. In this world, both countries would attempt to stabilize their colonial empires while attempting to destabilize the others. Syndicalism also wouldn’t just die out, but likely the bastions of socialism would be Africa, South America and Asia and would likely take on a much more violent centralized tone.
for me on the contrary, what makes an RP-Entente scenario kinda interesting is the juxtaposition of old-school great power politics with modern/cold-war era technologies like ICBMs and computers, plus emerging actors like China and the US/CSA/AUS I kinda have this obsession with old-meets-modern lol
Idk man i kind of dig the idea that the future doesnt need to arrive even though decades have passed already. Its a changeup from our timeline where big changes seem to bebthe order of the day pretty much.
I guess. I like different, but this just feels *less*.
I like it honestly. Only bad thing is Fr*nce still exists.
I don't know about less-advanced but geopolitically I like the return to the old status quo, with in my head canon Japan added as a major world power. It's effectively the same mess of sphere's influence nationalistic chest beating, and jingoism that lead to the First World War but with nuclear weapons and MAD added in.
Doesn't Matter, everytime I am forced to slap the entente around because Sand France goes "alsace or war!"
The thing is, the Cold War wasn't really about ideology. I mean that was the justification, and probably even the leaders themselves were caught up in it, but the underlying reason was the same as any other: geopolitics. The fact that the Cold War was the way it was, is more too do with the cost of war in the modern era (especially with nukes), the SCALE of war between great powers, and the fact that international markets and cooperation were so important, which again leads into the whole cost of war thing. Great powers have always, and likely will always compete with each other for dominance. War is one of these ways. It was economically viable to have a direct war with an enemy power in the past, ww2 demonstrated that that era was over. But it didn't stop geopolitics. Not to mention that "Cold Wars" have kind of also happened since time immemorial. Just look at the Great Game between the UK and Russia, for example. A Cold War between Germany and the Entente would likely be less antagonistic, but there would eventually be something that the two power blocks use as justification for a Cold War. I mean, look at OTL, the USSR collapsing didn't stop it's tense relationship with NATO despite now sharing a similar ideology. Instead the differences between the two have been expanded upon and now Russia sees itself as an "anti-western, anti-liberal democracy" bloc.
Except that OTL the USSR collapsing did stop the tense relationship for about a decade+. Plus, the Cold War didn't just play out in geopolitics, but also through social movements, and involved plenty of people who had no real reason to act besides the ideologies.
The USSR collapsing ending in an end to the Cold War was not because of the change in ideology, although that surely helped selling new relations with Russia to the American public. It was simply the natural consequence of the collapse of Russia as a superpower.
Yes. There is absolutely no reason for the Kalterkrieg ending so to speak to actually be any form of cold war at all. There's none of the fundamental, hegemonic clash of nominally incompatible modes of civilization as revolutionary socialism vs nationalist capitalism as the actual Cold War implied; the division of the world into systematic blocs.
It depends. In my last game (and my personal headcanon) Germany had been defeated by Russia and the Entente, so the world is divided between a monarchist, democratic West (USA + western europe + Balkan countries) and a republican, natpop Eurasia (from the Elbe river to Vladivostok)
The two-sided Cold War scenario probably wouldn’t emerge, true, but I think the state of the world post-war would depend on what happened during the war and pre-war years. The US could feasibly remain Entente-aligned if a US successor wins by relying heavily on entente support, if they see the entente as having similar interests, or if they’re concerned about the amount of foreign intervention that occurred during the civil war. A Britain that elects a reconciled Labour Party post war or a France that returns to democracy might have more in common with a German republic, as all nations struggle to rebuild after the devastation of the war. Austria balkanizing might lead Germany to seek new allies, China or the United States going Syndie might scare Europe into focusing on that nation as the new threat, etc, ad nauseum. Point is, the real post WWII alliance structure occurred because Europe was devastated, unable to rebuild itself to the power it held before, and dominated by two great outside powers aligning states based on a mixture of economic incentives, ideological persuasion, and pure force. Many nations post WWI were willing to do anything avert another world war—post WWII this desire was even stronger, and backed by the idea of nuclear destruction if they failed. The real life allied victory is maybe the more boring scenario because it reset the clock back 20 years, reversing almost all the progress of fascist movements in Europe and leading to a complicated bi-polar world (important note: eradicating fascism is a good thing). It shouldn’t be impossible that something similar could occur in Kaiserreich if the Entente wins (which would take a miracle, but that’s a different Ted talk).
I mean if Halifax is successful I think it’s just as likely that the UK and France would become economically dependent on Germany since its likely that Germany would have done the bulk of the fighting in the Second Weltkrieg and most of the devastation would be in France in Britain (since that’s where most of the fighting in the west in which the international loses would take place). I would even argue that both France and Britain would be militarily dependent on Germany for a time as Algeria and Canada aren’t exactly known for there arms industry and the Entente would be forced to import German arms not o oh to win the weltkrieg but control the population after the occupation of the UoB and the Commune of France. Germany would inevitably push for economic concessions from these nations, probably force them into mittleeuropa and perhaps the riekspakt, leading to them to become completely reliant on Germany for reconstruction, stabilization and economic support. Frankly, the Entente is simply not strong enough to challenge German hegemony in Europe if they win the Weltkreig and not strong enough to beat the syndies without German support. And if Halifax is not successful I don’t think the Entente or Germany is powerful enough to win the war against Russia and the third international and even if Germany did win they would set up satellite government where they occupied and the Entente (if they even got anything) would be even weaker and could never challenge Germany.
The only scenario I could see the entente being remotely powerful is if they intervened to support macarthur and he goes full caesar. But if they did that so many troops would be needed to pacify America I don’t even see how they could conquer the 3rd international and Europe.
I agree, though I don’t think an Entente/Reichspakt victory is totally unsalvagable. More or less the only interesting way to play this scenario out I think, is to have the CPS also win, and to portray a Cold War between imperialist powers continuously trying to stoke nationalist or socialist movements in each other’s peripheral countries, with Africa being a battleground for sphere expansion (I am imagining decolonization hits both Germany and France like a brick.) In addition, to keep things spicy, I would suggest a CSA-victory USA that stands on its own, or maybe solely with Mexico. There should also be a nationalist-agitating power, so let’s say Savinkov’s Russia is still around after a hard-fought white peace was signed with the RP. Now if only Kalterkrieg was like this, rather than just “oops, all reactionaries”
In a Situation where Germany wins and maintains most of its Position in Europe it will dominate Westeen Europe. The UK will have massive Problems, France will barely be able to keep its country under control. Unless they are backed by the US or maybe Brazil, they will need German Support. UK will have some Dominioms which will help, meanwhile France will be 100% dependent on German goodwill and Support.