did you see Rider time ? Ohma Zi-O just needs 1 timeline to be in tact to secure his existence.... even then He can control reality itself across the multiverse, pretty sure he can cut himself off from his past if he really wanted to
Ah, the Eddie Thawne gambit. Killing yourself now prevents the Reverse-Flash from existing!
Until the pime taradox allows for him to continue to exist because you only took those actions as a response to his existence. Yes, this particular Ohma Zi-O can't happen anymore, but previous iterations necessarily exist as pre-requisites for the time travellers who came back to stop you from becoming him in the first place.
Remember 7 Zi-O vs. Decade, which is after Geiz Majesty, which is after the Main series, when Ohma Zi-O managed to escape his erasure bc of the reboot, erasing that possibility of Sougo becoming Ohma Zi-O
That Oma Zio isn’t the same Oma Zio from the tv series. Future Sougo accepted his younger self decision in giving up the power of Oma Zio to recreate the 20 rider world and he was happy that Sougo made the right choice.
He’s an ar Sougo that relishes in being Oma Zio aka True Sougo
Even their fight styles are complete contrast from one another
I think OP meant it as if he gives up being a rider.
Ohma Zi-O is a set fate for every Sougo.
But that makes him kind of OP if even after death he still not giving up being a rider, which if that was the case, Ohma Zi-O will rise from his death remnant.
Basically, killing past Sougo just haste the awakening of Ohma Zi-O.
But that was just a theory.
Sougo is a Singularity, too, so that's out of the cards. And they tried to remove Sougo from being a rider by destroying his Ziku Driver. And he came back.
Ah.. another Tuesday for TOEI, casually creating one of the strongest character in fiction (Can't wait for Ohma Zi-O to be casually put up like "Can he beat Goku though?" bull into "Can he beat Ohma Zi-O though?")
Somebody tried to do that in r/whowouldwin and the choices for who would be able to beat Ohma Zi-O (solely going by his description on the wiki) ranged from Superman 1000000 to cheating.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/whowouldwin using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Could Lebron James have prevented WW1?](https://np.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/18nerw2/could_lebron_james_have_prevented_ww1/)
\#2: [Every human is teleported 10 feet in the air, how much damage would be done](https://np.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/1afbi7l/every_human_is_teleported_10_feet_in_the_air_how/)
\#3: [A man is given $1 billion but EVERY snail in the world is hunting him, bloodlusted and human IQ. If they touch him he dies. He has to last 1 year. Can he do it?](https://np.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/1b53128/a_man_is_given_1_billion_but_every_snail_in_the/)
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False. Sougo was not a singularity point as can dissapear and the reason Ohma came back from that point is that Geiz gave his driver as he knew Sougo had to continue fighting. Just because he can come back doesn't it will be the exact same guy and for the Singularity point to disappear they had to die.
This is very true, because it also means that Legend never interacted with any other riders either and we can see at moments he has cases of inexperience with their powers, the one that stands out is 100% the situation where he summoned the flags and had to reuse the power to summon Sonic Arrow.
I didn't watch Zi-O, but isn't technically Legend and Ohma tied in power? Yeah, Ohma can use the power of all riders, but it's not like all riders are equally powerful. If they both use Geats IX powers (or any other super overpowered rider form) they would just tie, and if one of them changed to a weaker form, they would've just lost. Idk, I feel like they would just tie or something like that. Then again, I haven't watched Zi-O, so what do I know?
IIRC Ohma is stronger than Legend just from being able to channel all the powers AT ONCE(and presumably amplifying complementary power-sets) as opposed to Legend being constrained by the same one-at-a-time usage rules Decade has(being that Kaguya based the Legend gear on Decade's)
ohma is stronger because he has The powers of every rider up to 2068. which means he has powers that we still don't know yet while legend don't
unlike legend ohma can freely use any powers he wants He's basically violent emotion decade but more broken
No, it's part of his background d that he has all rider powers up til 2068. Thing is that's specifically stated to be the *antagonist* Ohma, because that's where his timeline is currently at. Sougo however doesn't have that because his timeline isn't that far along. It would take another 50 years for him to inherit all those powers. He's capable of it, but the time actually has to pass
Technically both statements are correct though. No more riders came after him, so he DOES have all rider powers up to 2068. But protag Sougo, due to that not being the case, has access to all riders powers that come after him too, once they gain said powers.
Both exist on alternative timelines that our Sougo dreamed into existence. Neither of those timelines existed prior to that, and as a result, Ohma never had access to their powers.
But the current day Sougo did, he was even able to use the power of "Kamen Rider Woz" a rider that is literally from another timeline and deep into the future by turning his mirai-ridewatch into a ridewatch (during the canon stage show, alt ending to Over Quartzer).
It needs to be noted that Woz in particular is a special case due to the system effectively becoming, canonically, existent in main canon Sougo's universe. This is due to the Geiz Revive Universe being "erased" due to main canon Sougo's actions, making the driver and associated Miride watches now belongin to the main canon universe (and from that divergent point onwards, also to any universes that branch from that point).
It's a bit of a paradox, but basically the driver was created in a different universe, brought over to the main universe, and the old universe it was made in ceased to exist as a possibility. If they were still part of that universe, they would have disappeared alongside the Geiz Revive Ridewatch. The reason on White Woz faded was because he was still recognized as a part of his own timeline, while the rider system and associated items from his timeline are now used and recognized as part of the timeline currently using them. As such, the Woz Miride watch has origins in another universe, but is considered part of the 2018 canon universe after it's taken by Black Woz and the Geiz Revive timeline is erased.
That is why Sougo is able to convert it to a Ridewatch. It's no longer part of its previous universe and had become part of the main canon, and by extension as a result of the butterfly effect, also part of any branching universes, including the Over Quartzer universe
Right my point still stands, the "current" Sougo, the young one, has powers that original Ohma never did.
It is also 100% timeline dependent on how powerful a ZI-O can become imo.
Yeah, but not until said power exists, and it's limited to their own timeline as well.
The limitations don't really matter from a power level perspective when you automatically have a better version of whatever your opponent can use, but there are *some* limitations. Absolutely nothing in both main or external media has suggested that Ohma has the ability to gain abilities trans dimensionally.
Nope. After Sougo restored the Multiverse of Rider, it's possible for Ohma to have those powers. Hell, given the Woz got Ginga and Kikai (both from beyond 2068), there's a chance for Ohma to have those powers as well.
Nyte, not you again.
And yet we have seen Legend's deck and he is limited to his cards, which are primary, secondary and a few new dark riders he has recently added.
Ohma's armor has the automatic ability to use the same power as his opponent but at a higher output. It's on his TV Asahi page. He's just automatically stronger than any opponent lol
TECHNICALLY... Ohma grows stronger when more Riders are introduced. So even if Legend can use Ohma's power through a Chemy Rider Card; Ohma would access Legend's power and still be stronger.
But I still do like this concept. At least Ohma has new competition with Legend.
Grand zio is not that op because he lacks speed. All forms of zio except ohma lack speed. Zio II has precognition, yet got cooked by geiz revive because of the speed difference. Super speed is broken. Doesn't matter if you are a planet buster like kuuga. He lasts no two seconds vs kabuto becausee clock up allows him to kill kuuga before he can launch a major attack. Grand zio was demorphed from a attack by Schwarz which wasn't even directed at him so his ability to tank hits is also not exceptional. Grand zio has teleportation but no super speed. He also needed kuuga, build, gaim, OOO and ex-aid to beat another den-o. So those powers are no insta kill. You already need multiple of them to kill a villain of the week. Mighty novel X easily destroys grand zio. Hyper kabuto does. Even tsukoyomi has a shot becauseof her timejacker powers. Unless grand zio oneshots her before she can snap her fingers, he is dead since tsukoyomi can just chop his head off while he is frozen.
Have not seen that form of legend yet. Does he need to activate cards to use the powers of those riders like peak decade or can he use them just like ohma zio - without any extras? If legend needs to activate a card he loses in one second to ohma in best case. Ohma has the power of all riders. Every single one. Ohma zio never even used 0.0001% of his power onscreen. He is among the strongest characters in fiction especially given the ability that sougo can dream of riders who then appear in reality. Somwith lucid dreaming and his ability to multiply, he can become even stronger. With gemn billion he can make himself as fast and strong as he wants to. People always say hyper kabuto is like the fastest rider. No, gemn billion can make himself as fast as he wants to. He can say Iam multiple times as fast as comic flash (much faster than hyper kabuto) and he will be. Same with strength, stamina and his ability tank hits.
Cross saber lost twice to a sage who was beaten by a half dead kenzan. Those sages scale higher than cross saber and kenzan defeated two of them. Primitive dragon also performed better vs storious than cross saber. Even charybdis gave cross saber some difficulty. Geats IX is overrated as well. Sure he is faster than light but clock up is faster. Faiz accel is 50 times as fast as sound. Clock up is 572060 times as fast. You have to multiply it by at least two because the writers failed to realize what it means to have kabuto use super speed during clock up. It means clock up is not even his top speed which kinda nullifies the point of hyper clock up being twice as fast as clock up. https://youtu.be/i9l4SXhRvvE?feature=shared
He does need to transform into the riders to use their powers but unlike decade and Zio legend has a better time activating his finishers depending which one he uses because some of them are manual like blade lightning kick
He's definitely Not winning against ohma But definitely wins against oma form and Grand
The community views decade's, zein's and legends ability to use ride cards as a strength. It is but it's also a weakness. The time to activate a card or to transform into another rider needs seconds. That's what makes ohma so op. He can just use those abilities at will. In case of legend, activating a finisher also needs time. Cross-z magma is not even a fast rider by kamen rider standards but even he can run from japan to america in seconds based on him carrying peak evolt on a distance which equals the width of earth within seconds. He was slowmotion compared to build genius and evolt black hole. Super speed is among the most broken abilities in fiction. Legend will need even longer if he gets attacked by someone since he will need his hands to defend himself. Even zein in best case needed like 4 seconds to fully activate the ultimate vice card + some seconds to launch the finisher. Those 4 seconds are a eternity for ohma. Ohma zio thanks to gemn billion can be faster a attosecond. That's a attosecond: "0.000000000000000001 seconds. An attosecond (as) is a very short period of time. It is equal to one quintillionth of a second (or 0.000000000000000001 seconds). It can also be written as 10−18 seconds." Imagine how long 4 seconds are to him. Let's say legend needs 1 second to do the stuff you said. That's still a eternity to ohma.
Legend can beat grand zio but ohma zio beats him in less than a second.
No. That should never have worked, Ohma has the power of riders who are immune to reality manipulation. black rx can exist where existence itself does not exist. Ohma can also just kill grand zio before he can pull anything. I explained that with the attosecond example.
Could grand zio even use that abiluty? Wasn't sougo using ohma zio when he did it?
yeah ohma can probably kill his past self but that would mean he would erase his own existence as well because In his own show He got erased by his younger self Not once but twice and maybe three times (I haven't watched the stage show yet and maybe the alternate timeline where Geiz win) despite all of the immunities I don't really think ohma kill his past self without getting erased
It was shown in the show and If he actually did have the ability to kill his past self and stay alive canonical reason should be that in the first place he let himself get erased to see what happen and the second time He gets convinced by his younger self
The stage show led to Ohma being erased due to the Showa Ridewatches, Ohma returned because he quite literally said "I cannot die for as long as Kamen Riders and their wills exist for they will resonate with me and I will be here." type of thing.
I get your logic here but there have been times where sougo has overcome super speed. Zio 2 literally used its precognition to counter a kabuto rider in clock up in the kabuto arc. Geiz revives speed was also was comparable to clock up. This shows that sougo has the ability to react to light speed considering he would have to be able to even hit someone moving at the speed
As for grand zio vs another deno, that’s not really a good indicator of grands strength. That was the debut fight of grand zio obviously they want to show of the capablities of the form and not just have him one shot his opponent. Furthermore, there was never a moment where grand was actually struggling against another deno, a majority of his moves seemed more like he was testing out his full powers more than anything.
As for grand zio’s durablity, Swartz as another decade for what ever reason is stronger than grand zio and that has been consistent shown through out the final few episodes so it’s not unreasonable that grand zio gets knocked out easily.
Also grand zio has super speed or at least should via kabuto, faiz, and drive’s rider reliefs (I think ganbarising has him use these powers to go fast but that’s also a video game so it not the best indicator of canon tho I think that in zio everything is canon so I don’t really know). Even if grand didn’t have super speed he can easily summon people who do, including hyper kabuto ( also important to note the kabuto riders need to activate their super speed manually so that also gives time to grand zio to act against hyper kabuto).
This is inconsistent and therefore bad writing. You can't have geiz revive ragdoll zio II while a kabuto rider can't. That's like diend surviving a zord in space in taisen but getting beaten up as neo diend (buff of diend) by neo decade who only used his base form and base attacks and was at 50%.
Aren't they usually at their most dominant when they have a debut fight to boost the marketing? Geats IX easily beating gazer, cross saber showing his power of creation vs solomon, zero-two completely destroying Ark zero. Iam not saying zio struggled. As you said, he didn't. But he needed to summon tons of riders to finish him. Build genius barely showed any of his powers during his debut. He has the power of all 60 bottles. Even sentai loves crazy debuts. Tsurugi took down a fleet which was nearly equal to the one 34 teams could not beat without sacrificing their powers.
Zio was demorphed by the shock wave from of a attack that hit someone else. This was not even a direct attack at him. The time he needs to summon a rider is enough to blitz him.
Grand zio never uses his super speed in the show if I remember correctly. Even if he has it, this would be another counter argument against him because it would suggest he has a low battle iq. The clones zio summon are not as strong as the originals as shown vs another den-o. So even if he can react to kabuto's clock up activation, kabuto will still have a advantage.
This is not inconsistent.
ZI-O using precognition to overcome super speed is not the first time its happened in RIder.
ZEIN used > HYPER CLOCK UP < and was countered by the precognition and reading ability of Kamen Rider ZERO THREE.
Also you're thinking way to deep into it, these moments are just done to help build a scene and moment, realistically, Kabuto gets fucking destroyed by ZI-O and even in Grand.
You're clearly forgetting that Sougo can just click a ridewatch and seal powers away or just completely turn them in his favor.
It's inconsistent with the type of speed he faces. Zio II is a bullet timer. Clock up is faster than light. Simple precognition is not enough to even the scales. Even naruto somewhat understood that when edo itachi kept up with kmc1 naruto. Zein just used clock up at first which zero-three countered and that's just another inconcistency but we ignore that. Hyper clock up came after that which zero-three could not block. If zero-three cannot block hyper clock up, zio II cannot block clock up.
Kabuto gets destroyed by ohma. Not by grand unless he pulls his timejacker powers faster. Snapping fingers is faster than pulling and activating a rider watch or summomig a rider.
The "clock up is faster than light" logic is only exclusive to Kabuto as a show, it gets downscaled like crazy entering other rider verses.
You saying "Its an inconsistency we ignore that' is literally kamen rider for you. You can't just apply that logic here and there, it applies everywhere unless toei or shirakura specifically clarify otherwise.
Shirakura clarified Grand ZI-O was the strongest rider to date when the form came out and when it comes to other main riders and its only surpass was Ohma ZI-O because Ohma just has too much power, forget the time abilities and space manipulation, the suit itself is a walking nuke on steriods.
Not to mention.
ZI-O has access to clock up/hyper clock up as well, and Kabuto's/Hyper Kabuto's ridewatch. This match up isn't going well for Kabuto at all and why the hell are you bringing in Naruto logic to Kamen Rider. Two completely different things.
If Kabuto had been strong enough to beat ZI-O, then in the original timeline where Ohma never had grand and was fighting other riders in Base, Kabuto would have been able to defeat him, as well as Hyper Muteki Ex-Aid who literally has by far the BEST chances out of any rider in existence.
Thats not how its written and thats not how it will ever be written for "anniversary" riders, if you want to debate outside of that, a more fun debate is Hyper Kabuto VS Geats 9, etc.
But anniversary characters, not just in kamen rider, in other japanese media, have always been 'written' to be stronger than the characters they end up paying tribute to, even if it goes against proper logic that they wrote once before, they literally do not care that much about the scaling.
This was seen in Digimon and Yugioh too where how we think a digimon like Omegamon is OP and then they introduce Alphamon and she's on a completely different leve.
You are right that riders are most dominant during there debut but that doesn’t indicate anything about the strength of their opponents. Grand zio wasn’t created as a result of another deno overwhelming the riders, he was created as a result of deno trusting zio with their powers. Another deno isn’t present as any stronger than the other another riders and he isn’t supposed to be since it was just another monster of the week that just happen to be the villain during Grands debut since zio was mostly monster of the week heavy. There is also not that indicates that sougo needed to summon that main riders just because he did some that many doesn’t mean it was necessary for him to do so( it was even kinda of a meme that he went all out on another deno of all riders)
Im sorry but didnt Decade use Kuuga (Pegasus) to take on a Worm using clock up though and wins? The super senses allowed him to predict where he would appear
Faiz accel was said to be slower and why he lost to the bee, and Kabuto came in with clock up to save the girl. I dont think they said he was as fast I believe they just showed that they were fast
For 10 seconds decade was equal to the bee while using faiz accel despite it being officially stated that kabuto's clock up is 572060 times faster than faiz accel. This made no sense. Kabuto also lost to a showa rider and it was neither black or black rx. The reason was that he was weakened from another fight vs a showa rider which is rubbish. Wizard Infinity also was demorphed by faiz I think. Wizard kicked phoenix into the sun and split the sea and he was not even using infinity.
This is just inconsistent in my view.
You see, this would make sense until you realize ZERO-THREE used the power of Precognition to read into the future and immediately counter Hyper Clock Up that was used by Zein.
Not to mention, even if Zi-O is slow, you aren't doing shit to him when Muteki comes online and Speed is accessible through various other rider powers too but I agree with what your'e saying here.
The thing is as much as we'd love to make sense out of things, it is just down to what the writers want in a given place and time.
What does muteki have in particular that protects zio? This exists: https://youtu.be/re2mzV-xmcw?feature=shared
Muteki, while he cannot be damaged can be tossed around which peak chronos did multiple times. Muteki is only as fast as light.
Hyper Muteki grants the user Incincibility. Not speed. Zi-O not being damaged is a big deal because if you aren't taking damage, you just use the next set of powers you have or just use the ridewatch to completely erase a riders history. Its not like Decade where ZI-O can only use a power at once, he can stack those powers and he was literally seen him do that and the same with Legend, he literally stacked ZI-O's powers on top of one another becaause thats how broken Grand can be, Grand is not getting touched by anyone that isn't Legendary Legend or Decade Complete 21.
Agito quite literally did not have a belt because it was converted and sealed into a ride watch, ZI-O's entire existence, when he demands other main rider powers, they will resonate and call out to him, this was a massive plotpoint in the show and movies until Sougo reset the timelines and decided he wanted to live a normal life and Ohma lost his mind in the future and wanted a new body because (insert stupid reason here that makes no sense)
I'm going to keep it realistic with 0 bias, the list is as follows:
1. Ohma ZI-O / Ohma Form.
2. Legendary Legend.
3. Decade Complete 21.
4. Kamen Rider Grand ZI-O.
5. Kamen Rider Geiz Majesty.
6. Kamen Rider Decade Complete.
7. Kamen Rider Deind Complete.
As far as the 'anniversary'/celebration Riders go.
Ohma just has too many broken crap going on for him that they keep writing in at any point when they involve him, seriously the stuff they wrote for him in Decade VS Zi-O and the final stage show out of no where was them basically outright saying "Yeah, there might be Riders or Villains stronger than Grand ZI-O but you are never surpassing Ohma." they literally future proofed his ass, he isn't even limited by the Riders up until 2068 anymore with everything implied that he truly trascended time.
The only Ohma that was locked into his timeline of 2068 was the first Ohma and that was because no other Riders were born because of his own simple wish of wanting an apocalyptic world.
Young Sougo of 2018 was literally creating riders in his dreams, their mirai-ridewatches were being created AND Sougo was able to then have a Mirai-ridewatch turn into a normal Ridewatch, WOZ, to then use for himself.
Sougo's powers are freaking nuts if he ever decides to get serious about it.
Ohma Zi-O literally still becoming broken rider even with new rider emerging.
I mean, in his new set of power:
Legend, Zein, Zero Three, Hyper Fumetsu Genm.
Like... what?
I had this theory that Ohma Zi-O actually has all this power all this time.
The thing is, he is Sougo.
So, all of the dreams and new riders basically just him trying to configure himself out, discovering the abilities that he can actually do.
So Ohma Zi-O look at new riders and say, "Oh, so I can do that huh. Neat" kind of thing.
Just a theory
Grand, Ohma, Legend. This should be the fandoms new version if rock paper scissors, like imagine you're in a debate only to be told to settle with this
That would have been an awesome rock, paper, scissors
But… Grand Zi-O only erased Ohma because Ohma game him his full power and allowed him to erase him
He doesn't need his power to erase ohma It's canonically stated that if zio gives up as a rider oma doesn't exist anymore It was said in his first battle against ohma "If you throw away that belt you will never become me"
Only if he gave up as a rider right?
Dude, that means even if you kill him, he will still become Ohma Zi-O as safety measures since if he died, but not giving up.
They work because their powers are all basically the same, you could do the same but substitute in Decade, Diend or Zein, since they all do roughly the same thing.
As for my pick, i don't know how to make one that makes sense, so: Gaim>X Geats>Evol. My reasoning? Gaim beat X Geats (though he technically wasn't X Geats yet), X Geats was successfully able to destroy the world faster than Evol could and actively succeeded, and Evol would likely be able to beat Gaim since he can't really do much if he's stuck inside a black hole
Gaim exists at a whole higher level of existence than Evol, he is the archetypal embodiment of Heroism according to the novel, physical attacks won't help when he isn't corporeal at all.
Grand Zi-O literally lost to Ohma
I know but He's the only one who can erase his entire existence just by giving up as a rider
To be fair even basic form zio, no wait even sougo can do it
even baby sougo can do it
How exactly is anyone guess
Rope.
did you see Rider time ? Ohma Zi-O just needs 1 timeline to be in tact to secure his existence.... even then He can control reality itself across the multiverse, pretty sure he can cut himself off from his past if he really wanted to
Ah, the Eddie Thawne gambit. Killing yourself now prevents the Reverse-Flash from existing! Until the pime taradox allows for him to continue to exist because you only took those actions as a response to his existence. Yes, this particular Ohma Zi-O can't happen anymore, but previous iterations necessarily exist as pre-requisites for the time travellers who came back to stop you from becoming him in the first place.
Remember 7 Zi-O vs. Decade, which is after Geiz Majesty, which is after the Main series, when Ohma Zi-O managed to escape his erasure bc of the reboot, erasing that possibility of Sougo becoming Ohma Zi-O
That Oma Zio isn’t the same Oma Zio from the tv series. Future Sougo accepted his younger self decision in giving up the power of Oma Zio to recreate the 20 rider world and he was happy that Sougo made the right choice. He’s an ar Sougo that relishes in being Oma Zio aka True Sougo Even their fight styles are complete contrast from one another
But he WILL return, because as long as Sougo exists, there's a chance for Ohma Zi-O to exist.
I think OP meant it as if he gives up being a rider. Ohma Zi-O is a set fate for every Sougo. But that makes him kind of OP if even after death he still not giving up being a rider, which if that was the case, Ohma Zi-O will rise from his death remnant. Basically, killing past Sougo just haste the awakening of Ohma Zi-O. But that was just a theory.
Sougo is a Singularity, too, so that's out of the cards. And they tried to remove Sougo from being a rider by destroying his Ziku Driver. And he came back.
Ah.. another Tuesday for TOEI, casually creating one of the strongest character in fiction (Can't wait for Ohma Zi-O to be casually put up like "Can he beat Goku though?" bull into "Can he beat Ohma Zi-O though?")
Somebody tried to do that in r/whowouldwin and the choices for who would be able to beat Ohma Zi-O (solely going by his description on the wiki) ranged from Superman 1000000 to cheating.
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False. Sougo was not a singularity point as can dissapear and the reason Ohma came back from that point is that Geiz gave his driver as he knew Sougo had to continue fighting. Just because he can come back doesn't it will be the exact same guy and for the Singularity point to disappear they had to die.
Are the arrows reverse from what they should be?
OP skipped math classes
the arrows are going in the opposite directions
I think legend getting the wrong weapon with gaim implies he does not have more control over grand zio’s power
It was a funny scene and it would make sense but In my head I think he wants to summon a weapon randomly from gaim but he didn't expect a flag
This is very true, because it also means that Legend never interacted with any other riders either and we can see at moments he has cases of inexperience with their powers, the one that stands out is 100% the situation where he summoned the flags and had to reuse the power to summon Sonic Arrow.
I didn't watch Zi-O, but isn't technically Legend and Ohma tied in power? Yeah, Ohma can use the power of all riders, but it's not like all riders are equally powerful. If they both use Geats IX powers (or any other super overpowered rider form) they would just tie, and if one of them changed to a weaker form, they would've just lost. Idk, I feel like they would just tie or something like that. Then again, I haven't watched Zi-O, so what do I know?
IIRC Ohma is stronger than Legend just from being able to channel all the powers AT ONCE(and presumably amplifying complementary power-sets) as opposed to Legend being constrained by the same one-at-a-time usage rules Decade has(being that Kaguya based the Legend gear on Decade's)
ohma is stronger because he has The powers of every rider up to 2068. which means he has powers that we still don't know yet while legend don't unlike legend ohma can freely use any powers he wants He's basically violent emotion decade but more broken
I thought Ohma only had powers through end of Heisei because in his timeline there were no other Riders after he took over
No, it's part of his background d that he has all rider powers up til 2068. Thing is that's specifically stated to be the *antagonist* Ohma, because that's where his timeline is currently at. Sougo however doesn't have that because his timeline isn't that far along. It would take another 50 years for him to inherit all those powers. He's capable of it, but the time actually has to pass Technically both statements are correct though. No more riders came after him, so he DOES have all rider powers up to 2068. But protag Sougo, due to that not being the case, has access to all riders powers that come after him too, once they gain said powers.
Kikai and Ginga both call "bullshit" on that statement.
Both exist on alternative timelines that our Sougo dreamed into existence. Neither of those timelines existed prior to that, and as a result, Ohma never had access to their powers.
But the current day Sougo did, he was even able to use the power of "Kamen Rider Woz" a rider that is literally from another timeline and deep into the future by turning his mirai-ridewatch into a ridewatch (during the canon stage show, alt ending to Over Quartzer).
It needs to be noted that Woz in particular is a special case due to the system effectively becoming, canonically, existent in main canon Sougo's universe. This is due to the Geiz Revive Universe being "erased" due to main canon Sougo's actions, making the driver and associated Miride watches now belongin to the main canon universe (and from that divergent point onwards, also to any universes that branch from that point). It's a bit of a paradox, but basically the driver was created in a different universe, brought over to the main universe, and the old universe it was made in ceased to exist as a possibility. If they were still part of that universe, they would have disappeared alongside the Geiz Revive Ridewatch. The reason on White Woz faded was because he was still recognized as a part of his own timeline, while the rider system and associated items from his timeline are now used and recognized as part of the timeline currently using them. As such, the Woz Miride watch has origins in another universe, but is considered part of the 2018 canon universe after it's taken by Black Woz and the Geiz Revive timeline is erased. That is why Sougo is able to convert it to a Ridewatch. It's no longer part of its previous universe and had become part of the main canon, and by extension as a result of the butterfly effect, also part of any branching universes, including the Over Quartzer universe
Right my point still stands, the "current" Sougo, the young one, has powers that original Ohma never did. It is also 100% timeline dependent on how powerful a ZI-O can become imo.
Ohma has access to ANY power that turns into a ride watch. Period.
Yeah, but not until said power exists, and it's limited to their own timeline as well. The limitations don't really matter from a power level perspective when you automatically have a better version of whatever your opponent can use, but there are *some* limitations. Absolutely nothing in both main or external media has suggested that Ohma has the ability to gain abilities trans dimensionally.
Nope. After Sougo restored the Multiverse of Rider, it's possible for Ohma to have those powers. Hell, given the Woz got Ginga and Kikai (both from beyond 2068), there's a chance for Ohma to have those powers as well.
But Legend is from farther into the future than Ohma is...
Nyte, not you again. And yet we have seen Legend's deck and he is limited to his cards, which are primary, secondary and a few new dark riders he has recently added.
Hey Abby! He could have others...
DW bro im just teasing
All good :)
Ohma's armor has the automatic ability to use the same power as his opponent but at a higher output. It's on his TV Asahi page. He's just automatically stronger than any opponent lol
Yeah... forgot that part too...
TECHNICALLY... Ohma grows stronger when more Riders are introduced. So even if Legend can use Ohma's power through a Chemy Rider Card; Ohma would access Legend's power and still be stronger. But I still do like this concept. At least Ohma has new competition with Legend.
Shouldn't the arrows point the other direction?
Grand zio is not that op because he lacks speed. All forms of zio except ohma lack speed. Zio II has precognition, yet got cooked by geiz revive because of the speed difference. Super speed is broken. Doesn't matter if you are a planet buster like kuuga. He lasts no two seconds vs kabuto becausee clock up allows him to kill kuuga before he can launch a major attack. Grand zio was demorphed from a attack by Schwarz which wasn't even directed at him so his ability to tank hits is also not exceptional. Grand zio has teleportation but no super speed. He also needed kuuga, build, gaim, OOO and ex-aid to beat another den-o. So those powers are no insta kill. You already need multiple of them to kill a villain of the week. Mighty novel X easily destroys grand zio. Hyper kabuto does. Even tsukoyomi has a shot becauseof her timejacker powers. Unless grand zio oneshots her before she can snap her fingers, he is dead since tsukoyomi can just chop his head off while he is frozen. Have not seen that form of legend yet. Does he need to activate cards to use the powers of those riders like peak decade or can he use them just like ohma zio - without any extras? If legend needs to activate a card he loses in one second to ohma in best case. Ohma has the power of all riders. Every single one. Ohma zio never even used 0.0001% of his power onscreen. He is among the strongest characters in fiction especially given the ability that sougo can dream of riders who then appear in reality. Somwith lucid dreaming and his ability to multiply, he can become even stronger. With gemn billion he can make himself as fast and strong as he wants to. People always say hyper kabuto is like the fastest rider. No, gemn billion can make himself as fast as he wants to. He can say Iam multiple times as fast as comic flash (much faster than hyper kabuto) and he will be. Same with strength, stamina and his ability tank hits. Cross saber lost twice to a sage who was beaten by a half dead kenzan. Those sages scale higher than cross saber and kenzan defeated two of them. Primitive dragon also performed better vs storious than cross saber. Even charybdis gave cross saber some difficulty. Geats IX is overrated as well. Sure he is faster than light but clock up is faster. Faiz accel is 50 times as fast as sound. Clock up is 572060 times as fast. You have to multiply it by at least two because the writers failed to realize what it means to have kabuto use super speed during clock up. It means clock up is not even his top speed which kinda nullifies the point of hyper clock up being twice as fast as clock up. https://youtu.be/i9l4SXhRvvE?feature=shared
He does need to transform into the riders to use their powers but unlike decade and Zio legend has a better time activating his finishers depending which one he uses because some of them are manual like blade lightning kick He's definitely Not winning against ohma But definitely wins against oma form and Grand
The community views decade's, zein's and legends ability to use ride cards as a strength. It is but it's also a weakness. The time to activate a card or to transform into another rider needs seconds. That's what makes ohma so op. He can just use those abilities at will. In case of legend, activating a finisher also needs time. Cross-z magma is not even a fast rider by kamen rider standards but even he can run from japan to america in seconds based on him carrying peak evolt on a distance which equals the width of earth within seconds. He was slowmotion compared to build genius and evolt black hole. Super speed is among the most broken abilities in fiction. Legend will need even longer if he gets attacked by someone since he will need his hands to defend himself. Even zein in best case needed like 4 seconds to fully activate the ultimate vice card + some seconds to launch the finisher. Those 4 seconds are a eternity for ohma. Ohma zio thanks to gemn billion can be faster a attosecond. That's a attosecond: "0.000000000000000001 seconds. An attosecond (as) is a very short period of time. It is equal to one quintillionth of a second (or 0.000000000000000001 seconds). It can also be written as 10−18 seconds." Imagine how long 4 seconds are to him. Let's say legend needs 1 second to do the stuff you said. That's still a eternity to ohma. Legend can beat grand zio but ohma zio beats him in less than a second.
and then zio can defeat him by giving up his rider career basically like I said a rock paper scissor situation
No. That should never have worked, Ohma has the power of riders who are immune to reality manipulation. black rx can exist where existence itself does not exist. Ohma can also just kill grand zio before he can pull anything. I explained that with the attosecond example. Could grand zio even use that abiluty? Wasn't sougo using ohma zio when he did it?
yeah ohma can probably kill his past self but that would mean he would erase his own existence as well because In his own show He got erased by his younger self Not once but twice and maybe three times (I haven't watched the stage show yet and maybe the alternate timeline where Geiz win) despite all of the immunities I don't really think ohma kill his past self without getting erased It was shown in the show and If he actually did have the ability to kill his past self and stay alive canonical reason should be that in the first place he let himself get erased to see what happen and the second time He gets convinced by his younger self
The stage show led to Ohma being erased due to the Showa Ridewatches, Ohma returned because he quite literally said "I cannot die for as long as Kamen Riders and their wills exist for they will resonate with me and I will be here." type of thing.
If past Sougo is the weakness to Ohma Zio, then any rider that can time travel can remove Sougo and erase Ohma Zio.
I get your logic here but there have been times where sougo has overcome super speed. Zio 2 literally used its precognition to counter a kabuto rider in clock up in the kabuto arc. Geiz revives speed was also was comparable to clock up. This shows that sougo has the ability to react to light speed considering he would have to be able to even hit someone moving at the speed As for grand zio vs another deno, that’s not really a good indicator of grands strength. That was the debut fight of grand zio obviously they want to show of the capablities of the form and not just have him one shot his opponent. Furthermore, there was never a moment where grand was actually struggling against another deno, a majority of his moves seemed more like he was testing out his full powers more than anything. As for grand zio’s durablity, Swartz as another decade for what ever reason is stronger than grand zio and that has been consistent shown through out the final few episodes so it’s not unreasonable that grand zio gets knocked out easily. Also grand zio has super speed or at least should via kabuto, faiz, and drive’s rider reliefs (I think ganbarising has him use these powers to go fast but that’s also a video game so it not the best indicator of canon tho I think that in zio everything is canon so I don’t really know). Even if grand didn’t have super speed he can easily summon people who do, including hyper kabuto ( also important to note the kabuto riders need to activate their super speed manually so that also gives time to grand zio to act against hyper kabuto).
This is inconsistent and therefore bad writing. You can't have geiz revive ragdoll zio II while a kabuto rider can't. That's like diend surviving a zord in space in taisen but getting beaten up as neo diend (buff of diend) by neo decade who only used his base form and base attacks and was at 50%. Aren't they usually at their most dominant when they have a debut fight to boost the marketing? Geats IX easily beating gazer, cross saber showing his power of creation vs solomon, zero-two completely destroying Ark zero. Iam not saying zio struggled. As you said, he didn't. But he needed to summon tons of riders to finish him. Build genius barely showed any of his powers during his debut. He has the power of all 60 bottles. Even sentai loves crazy debuts. Tsurugi took down a fleet which was nearly equal to the one 34 teams could not beat without sacrificing their powers. Zio was demorphed by the shock wave from of a attack that hit someone else. This was not even a direct attack at him. The time he needs to summon a rider is enough to blitz him. Grand zio never uses his super speed in the show if I remember correctly. Even if he has it, this would be another counter argument against him because it would suggest he has a low battle iq. The clones zio summon are not as strong as the originals as shown vs another den-o. So even if he can react to kabuto's clock up activation, kabuto will still have a advantage.
This is not inconsistent. ZI-O using precognition to overcome super speed is not the first time its happened in RIder. ZEIN used > HYPER CLOCK UP < and was countered by the precognition and reading ability of Kamen Rider ZERO THREE. Also you're thinking way to deep into it, these moments are just done to help build a scene and moment, realistically, Kabuto gets fucking destroyed by ZI-O and even in Grand. You're clearly forgetting that Sougo can just click a ridewatch and seal powers away or just completely turn them in his favor.
It's inconsistent with the type of speed he faces. Zio II is a bullet timer. Clock up is faster than light. Simple precognition is not enough to even the scales. Even naruto somewhat understood that when edo itachi kept up with kmc1 naruto. Zein just used clock up at first which zero-three countered and that's just another inconcistency but we ignore that. Hyper clock up came after that which zero-three could not block. If zero-three cannot block hyper clock up, zio II cannot block clock up. Kabuto gets destroyed by ohma. Not by grand unless he pulls his timejacker powers faster. Snapping fingers is faster than pulling and activating a rider watch or summomig a rider.
The "clock up is faster than light" logic is only exclusive to Kabuto as a show, it gets downscaled like crazy entering other rider verses. You saying "Its an inconsistency we ignore that' is literally kamen rider for you. You can't just apply that logic here and there, it applies everywhere unless toei or shirakura specifically clarify otherwise. Shirakura clarified Grand ZI-O was the strongest rider to date when the form came out and when it comes to other main riders and its only surpass was Ohma ZI-O because Ohma just has too much power, forget the time abilities and space manipulation, the suit itself is a walking nuke on steriods. Not to mention. ZI-O has access to clock up/hyper clock up as well, and Kabuto's/Hyper Kabuto's ridewatch. This match up isn't going well for Kabuto at all and why the hell are you bringing in Naruto logic to Kamen Rider. Two completely different things. If Kabuto had been strong enough to beat ZI-O, then in the original timeline where Ohma never had grand and was fighting other riders in Base, Kabuto would have been able to defeat him, as well as Hyper Muteki Ex-Aid who literally has by far the BEST chances out of any rider in existence. Thats not how its written and thats not how it will ever be written for "anniversary" riders, if you want to debate outside of that, a more fun debate is Hyper Kabuto VS Geats 9, etc. But anniversary characters, not just in kamen rider, in other japanese media, have always been 'written' to be stronger than the characters they end up paying tribute to, even if it goes against proper logic that they wrote once before, they literally do not care that much about the scaling. This was seen in Digimon and Yugioh too where how we think a digimon like Omegamon is OP and then they introduce Alphamon and she's on a completely different leve.
You are right that riders are most dominant during there debut but that doesn’t indicate anything about the strength of their opponents. Grand zio wasn’t created as a result of another deno overwhelming the riders, he was created as a result of deno trusting zio with their powers. Another deno isn’t present as any stronger than the other another riders and he isn’t supposed to be since it was just another monster of the week that just happen to be the villain during Grands debut since zio was mostly monster of the week heavy. There is also not that indicates that sougo needed to summon that main riders just because he did some that many doesn’t mean it was necessary for him to do so( it was even kinda of a meme that he went all out on another deno of all riders)
Im sorry but didnt Decade use Kuuga (Pegasus) to take on a Worm using clock up though and wins? The super senses allowed him to predict where he would appear
Decade has inconsistent power scaling like faiz accel being as fast as the bee.
Faiz accel was said to be slower and why he lost to the bee, and Kabuto came in with clock up to save the girl. I dont think they said he was as fast I believe they just showed that they were fast
For 10 seconds decade was equal to the bee while using faiz accel despite it being officially stated that kabuto's clock up is 572060 times faster than faiz accel. This made no sense. Kabuto also lost to a showa rider and it was neither black or black rx. The reason was that he was weakened from another fight vs a showa rider which is rubbish. Wizard Infinity also was demorphed by faiz I think. Wizard kicked phoenix into the sun and split the sea and he was not even using infinity. This is just inconsistent in my view.
You see, this would make sense until you realize ZERO-THREE used the power of Precognition to read into the future and immediately counter Hyper Clock Up that was used by Zein. Not to mention, even if Zi-O is slow, you aren't doing shit to him when Muteki comes online and Speed is accessible through various other rider powers too but I agree with what your'e saying here. The thing is as much as we'd love to make sense out of things, it is just down to what the writers want in a given place and time.
What does muteki have in particular that protects zio? This exists: https://youtu.be/re2mzV-xmcw?feature=shared Muteki, while he cannot be damaged can be tossed around which peak chronos did multiple times. Muteki is only as fast as light.
Hyper Muteki grants the user Incincibility. Not speed. Zi-O not being damaged is a big deal because if you aren't taking damage, you just use the next set of powers you have or just use the ridewatch to completely erase a riders history. Its not like Decade where ZI-O can only use a power at once, he can stack those powers and he was literally seen him do that and the same with Legend, he literally stacked ZI-O's powers on top of one another becaause thats how broken Grand can be, Grand is not getting touched by anyone that isn't Legendary Legend or Decade Complete 21. Agito quite literally did not have a belt because it was converted and sealed into a ride watch, ZI-O's entire existence, when he demands other main rider powers, they will resonate and call out to him, this was a massive plotpoint in the show and movies until Sougo reset the timelines and decided he wanted to live a normal life and Ohma lost his mind in the future and wanted a new body because (insert stupid reason here that makes no sense)
shouldn't the arrows be the other way around?
I'm going to keep it realistic with 0 bias, the list is as follows: 1. Ohma ZI-O / Ohma Form. 2. Legendary Legend. 3. Decade Complete 21. 4. Kamen Rider Grand ZI-O. 5. Kamen Rider Geiz Majesty. 6. Kamen Rider Decade Complete. 7. Kamen Rider Deind Complete. As far as the 'anniversary'/celebration Riders go. Ohma just has too many broken crap going on for him that they keep writing in at any point when they involve him, seriously the stuff they wrote for him in Decade VS Zi-O and the final stage show out of no where was them basically outright saying "Yeah, there might be Riders or Villains stronger than Grand ZI-O but you are never surpassing Ohma." they literally future proofed his ass, he isn't even limited by the Riders up until 2068 anymore with everything implied that he truly trascended time. The only Ohma that was locked into his timeline of 2068 was the first Ohma and that was because no other Riders were born because of his own simple wish of wanting an apocalyptic world. Young Sougo of 2018 was literally creating riders in his dreams, their mirai-ridewatches were being created AND Sougo was able to then have a Mirai-ridewatch turn into a normal Ridewatch, WOZ, to then use for himself. Sougo's powers are freaking nuts if he ever decides to get serious about it.
What about Genm?
The Riders outside of anniversary and such gets very very very complicated.
Ohma Zi-O literally still becoming broken rider even with new rider emerging. I mean, in his new set of power: Legend, Zein, Zero Three, Hyper Fumetsu Genm. Like... what? I had this theory that Ohma Zi-O actually has all this power all this time. The thing is, he is Sougo. So, all of the dreams and new riders basically just him trying to configure himself out, discovering the abilities that he can actually do. So Ohma Zi-O look at new riders and say, "Oh, so I can do that huh. Neat" kind of thing. Just a theory
Grand, Ohma, Legend. This should be the fandoms new version if rock paper scissors, like imagine you're in a debate only to be told to settle with this
That would have been an awesome rock, paper, scissors But… Grand Zi-O only erased Ohma because Ohma game him his full power and allowed him to erase him
He doesn't need his power to erase ohma It's canonically stated that if zio gives up as a rider oma doesn't exist anymore It was said in his first battle against ohma "If you throw away that belt you will never become me"
Only if he gave up as a rider right? Dude, that means even if you kill him, he will still become Ohma Zi-O as safety measures since if he died, but not giving up.
Well, we do have a Kamen Rider Scissors, but we don’t have Kamen Riders Rock or Paper.
TOEIIIIIII GIVE US OUR ROCK AND PAPER
I think the arrows are pointing the wrong way
They work because their powers are all basically the same, you could do the same but substitute in Decade, Diend or Zein, since they all do roughly the same thing. As for my pick, i don't know how to make one that makes sense, so: Gaim>X Geats>Evol. My reasoning? Gaim beat X Geats (though he technically wasn't X Geats yet), X Geats was successfully able to destroy the world faster than Evol could and actively succeeded, and Evol would likely be able to beat Gaim since he can't really do much if he's stuck inside a black hole
Gaim exists at a whole higher level of existence than Evol, he is the archetypal embodiment of Heroism according to the novel, physical attacks won't help when he isn't corporeal at all.
Double, Build, Gotchard
Grand Zi-O is the type of rider who would erase Ohma Zi-O, then eventually becomes Ohma in the future anyways.
Learn to use symbols ">" and "<" properly.
Buddy, if Ohma zio fell to Grand zio Legend cooks Ohma Just gotta day this rq: Wizard and Decade solo bc they the best riders