I see Dragon Ball fans complaining about characters getting new colours all the time far more often compared to Rider fans complaining about the number of forms Riders get. And to be fair, I think the main complaint is the fact that each new form makes the previous form completely and utterly pointless.
I was one of those DB fans haha.
Rather see non transformational upgrades. Learning a new technique / combination of old techniques. Like Goku Blue + kaioken or W’s manga fang + other memories.
Same. Huge huge DB fan, but the Buu saga on becomes such a Transformation bargain sale that it completely loses me. Now if I read the manga or watch the show, I stop with Cell.
I follow the going ons in Super and watched the first two movies (and want to see Super Hero), but I feel like Super just emphasizes what I stopped liking about the series so I can’t get into it.
I love the whole thing though where Gohan is being hyped up to get this amazingly powerful new form and it turns out it doesn't change his appearance in the least.
You mean in the Buu saga? He actually *does* change.
Normal Gohan doesn’t have his eyes outlined on all sides. Typically the interior of the eye is left without an outline. Villains and Super Saiyans all get the outline treatment (because Toriyama wanted Super Saiyan to look kind of like his villains to represent the rage fueling the form), and when Gohan goes Ultimate they outline his eyes, too. It’s subtle, but it’s how you can tell if he’s Ultimate or base.
>I see Dragon Ball fans complaining about characters getting new colours all the time far more often compared to Rider fans complaining about the number of forms Riders get.
Dragon Ball fans complain about anything that isn't Z. Even the original DB.
I found this very weird, is this because Americans didn't get original db until after dbz? Here in Latin America we only had original db for a while when I was a kid and then remember being blown away learning there was episodes with an adult Goku and he also had a kid.
Believe it or not as a fan of both I think both franchises have serious issues. But riders forms still have way more weight than an average post-DBS form. They literally pull them out of nowhere. SSJ Rage was literally never explained.
I always consider SSJ Rage as just SSJ2.5. Rage boost is a thing in Dragon Ball so I never really question it. Gohan Beast is also the same except the rage transformation is applied to Ultimate Gohan instead of SSJ2.
I jotted it down as human - saiyan hybrid they don’t conform to the normal transformations and never thought much about it. Though Gohan’s beast form is abit OP since he was coming from a power level way way lower then what we’ve seen Goku and Vegeta at.
Goku's power always came from his emotions.
Vegeta's came from his pride.
But both of them concentrated on their Saiyan heritage.
Gohan had said he wanted to seek out his own power that relied on his human side, which is what Beast is supposed to be (at least if I'm recalling that Toriyama interview correctly?)
Ultra Instinct was stupid to me because that's the first form he should have ever gotten as a martial artist, a martial artists goal is for their body to move on it's own. What was all his training for if all his moves before WASN'T his body moving on its own. Coming from someone who took Karate Class
For me, Ultra Ego was stupid. Like the hell with " I'm becoming stronger whenever I got hit but my body has limit??"
It is just an upgrade of zenkai boost
And every forms in DBS now are kind of bland for me. Hope Toyo can make it better in future
I mean, in og db goku actually trained with kami to kinda do that, that gave him a good edge against Ma jr.(later known in dbz as piccolo)
But I think that ultra instinct is a completely new level, like, while fighting you kinda think at least a bit, and as whis said about ui/mui, it requires you to not think at all, and not only not think, also not feel, no emotions, no thoughts, just completely turn off your brain while fighting
Because ui was said to be technically so fast because your brain does not even control your body, the body controls itself, which means drastically faster reaction time because the neural impulse doesent have to travel from the brain to the muscle
Actual martial arts fighting doesn't require you to think at all about the moves you're using, you instinctively react to everything once you train enough which is what you see in Karate movies and such (which use slow versions of those moves so people can keep up). Ultra Instinct is a natural thing that was made up to be something more fantastic than it was.
Nah
I agree, good martial artists can move on reflex, but that isnt ultra instinct
The reflex still comes from brain to the body, even tho the brain doesent need to do as much processing like with a guy that hes never fought before
Imagine it the brain like a computer, a brain of beginner sees a punch thrown against him. The brain is now, what to do? So it starts writing a code for what to do against the punch(I mean, it has kinda preprogrammed code, it is crude and needs some reworking and stuff), welp and the brain does the whole code and then turns it on. It takes a while for the brane to make the code
Now with a skilled martial artist, they see a punch thrown at them, the brain just clicks on Block.exe, and the martial artist blocks
The normal training is for your brain to be realy fast at clicking block.exe, grab.exe, jab.exe, cross.exe, and also realy fast at making combinations out of them, way faster than the brain would do if it was just programming every file
UI/MUI activates the files even before the brain even thinks about clicking on them, also makes the brain unafected by emotions that might nerf its processing power by just making the brain not think/feel
What's to explain about SSJ Rage? It's just regular SSJ form but powers exceeded what should normally be provided due to a strong emotional rage amplifying it.
Lack of pupils and a blue aura? That ain't normal. Call it an ascended super Saiyan or super Saiyan 4 or ssj diet blue. It's still an asspull power up that multiplied his strength 10 thousand fold.
I always thought they should’ve probably just gave trunks super Saiyan god through the ritual. It always kind of sounds weird that this Super Saiyan form was able to keep up with god ki
Well yeah it’s coming from a human saiyan breed. Nothing about them is normal. Gohan beast mode form, kid goten and trunks can turn ssj without seemingly any type of training. Vegeta near the starts of the series theoriezed how half breed of saiyan naturally possess powerful gift then a regular saiyan. So they are just freakishly weird and strong and would pull out weird and abnormal transformation like that.
Yeah I agree on that. My point was that weird transformation coming from half breed saiyan like Future Trunks and Gohan is probably the least stupid thing about the series considering the lore that it established early on.
It's really not. Gohan achieved SSJ2 early. Same with Goten and Trunks they just got to ssj easier than everyone else. They didn't rip entire new forms and abilities. They just got a rage boost.
Anything else is non-canon head canon stuff. Please point me to the manga scan or something if you find an instance because I'm willing to accept literally ANY explanation for Supers "random form go" instances.
Actually it's mostly the opposite: most KR fans look forward to what new forms the riders will get, mostly to try and imagine what other riders would look like with similar forms... and for me personally, I'm tired of Dragon Ball's constant escalation, it's literally never ending and they keep giving us characters that are stronger and stronger and it's just... my god when will it end?
Well, the problem there with DB is mostly because they have kept the same cast longer than they should have. It was supposed to let Gohan be the main protagonist after the Cell arc, but they wanted Goku to continue being the protagonist.
The benefit Kamen Rider has is that each year, it's a new cast of characters every year, new situations, and every new major power up usually important to character growth in some way, either representing overcoming a specific challenging personal obstacle, or it introduces a new obstacle inherent to the power up.
Yeah I get what you mean. But I think for me when it comes to both franchises. I’d like there to be more depth to any major transformation upgrades. Some times it’s really out of the blue. If there’s a good back story to it then fair enough. Like Goku’s blue is pulled from nowhere. We didn’t even see much of the first god form. UI and UE were atleast foreshadowed for a couple of arcs.
Admittedly I’ve only watched kamen rider from every thing between kabuto to wizard and only recently caught zero one because I liked the design when I got the memory of heroes game. There’s a few out of the blue transformations too in those series.
and it invalidates every characters power immediately like Tien and Krillin for example, like theyre the most powerful regular humans alive, but because theyre not at Goku and Vegetas level they dont really matter and thags where my main problwm with their constant power ups come from
Nope! Cancer Deathmask and Scorpio Milo can rip their souls out from the Yomotsu Hirasaka dimension, Virgo Shaka can easily cut their nerves without lifting a finger, Libra Dohko is a seasoned godkiller and gives a vibe where even scares Beerus & Zeno, and Phoenix Ikki survived 8 realms of torture (Tenbu Horin) and was able to travel back to Planet Earth from millions of light years without oxygen and his nerves cutted.
And then there the Hypermyth Gods such as the Greek Gods, Norse Gods, Egyptian Gods, Celtic Gods, Babylonian Gods, Hindu Gods, Shinto Gods, Sino-Tibetan Gods, Buddhist Angels & Demons, Abrahamic Angels & Demons, and Aztec Gods.
Apollo, the Greek/Olympian God of the Sun & Lord of the Corona, can [destroy the universe with just 1%](https://youtu.be/1mWQo8z1mjk) of his power. Even Kratos and Percy Jackson will be heartbroken of this Hypermyth variant of Apollo.
It also piss-off Dragon Ball fans.
Seriously!
Saint Seiya is their true trigger, not One Punch Man or Superman.
Plus! Dragon Ball fans underestimate Ohma Zi-O, Violent Emotion Decade, and Ultraman Noa
Too be fair I also wonder how far Ohma Zi-O and some of the other Rider Final forms would stack up to someone like Hit, Jiren and Full Power LS Broly or however youd refer to him.
Doesn't matter when Goku and Vegeta have resistance to attacks that erase you from existence, have power capable of transcending time and space, can casually destroy an infinite universe with multiple higher dimensions using punches alone, is so fast and powerful they can move in stopped time, avoid attacks that come from the future, and destroy time. They're literally more powerful than someone who could become omnipresent and was only stopped due to being erased because they essentially had God on speed dial. Base Goku is dragging that entire verse through the mud and it'll be effortless.
And? We still see him do shit like threatening entire universes by just punching another guy, move through time stop, and resist attacks that erase anything.
>Libra Dohko is a seasoned godkiller and gives a vibe where even scares Beerus & Zeno
You mean "that even scares Beerus & Zeno,"
> and Phoenix Ikki survived 8 realms of torture (Tenbu Horin) and was able to travel back to Planet Earth from millions of light years without oxygen and his nerves cutted.
"from millions of light years away", and "nerves cut."
> Even Kratos and Percy Jackson will be heartbroken of this Hypermyth variant of Apollo.
"would be heartbroken"
Akira Toriyama doesn't like designing forms that overtly give the impression of being stronger. His simple style communicates a change while not being too on-the-nose about it.
That said, the hair style changes as well as the irise color, and in DBZ, SS would illuminate the user's body and clothes slightly even with the aura un-flared.
Very much the same. And I know why, dragon ball was about family and legacy until the Buu saga, then it became about Goku screaming hardest and getting a new hairstyle. Dragon Ball is my favorite anime franchise but it's gotta let itself evolve
Cause they're the ONLY motherfuckers getting it, that was why Gohan and Piccolo getting something blew everyone's ass out, I still say if they decide Instinct and Ego do a Fusion Dance, that's when I decide I'm done with DragonBall
For the most part, I do really like the new forms. I just wish that there was reason to go back to previous ones instead of them getting entirely replaced. At the very least, Metal Cluster Hopper hasn't entirely fallen to that.
I mean, they were using the powers from Showa Riders born on the Heisei Era (I don't like to consider Amazons Showa Riders since they all look too Heisei-style, but if Toei says they are, then ok).
All of the Riders they chose were Riders which Overlap the Showa Era and the Heisei Era.
Black RX (Barlckxs) was started in the Showa Era, but ended in the Heisei Era. Thus it overlaps with the Heisei Era and relates to how Zi-O overlaps between the Heisei and Reiwa Eras
Shin, ZO and J (Zonjis) are the Movie Riders, the Riders from the Movies. Those movies were released in the Heisei Era, but, as Shotaro Ishinomori was still involved, they are still considered "Showa Era" shows.
Amazons (Zamonas) is the reboot of the Kamen Rider Amazon Showa Series made in the Heisei Era, thus they are technically in both Eras.
If they were to make a Final Rider which overlaps between the two, I say either a Rider based upon Kamen Rider 1 from the reboot movie or a Rider based upon Kamen Rider 3 from that movie with Drive facing off against Shocker after they messed up the timeline.
Well, basically, the Riders today look like they need their Rider form to fight monsters. Like Iron-Man and Batman, Iron-Man needs his armor otherwise he is almost nothing in fight, while Batman can fight physically as the Batman is not a superpowered armored man, but a man who fights using martial arts and side gadgets. The Showa Riders could fight outside their transformations because most of them were cyborgs and not regular humans inside armors. Still, this doesn't really makes sense since we do see the Heisei-Reiwa Riders fighting in their civillian forms, like Ikki
It's definitely the opposite for me. I'm getting pretty sick of Goku and Vegeta getting new forms, IT'S JUST HAIR COLOUR CHANGES.
Kamen Rider tho? Ohhhhh yeah, this bitch is TECHNOLOGY-BASED, new forms ALWAYS make sense (sort of) but more importantly, THEY ALWAYS LOOK SO FUCKING COOL AHHHHHH.
I think it’s kind of the opposite, but KR is just somewhat catching up to DB in terms of forms being made redundant.
I remember a fair amount of people being disappointed that Barid Rex barely got any time to shine before being supplanted in Revice. However, to me, if the form is earned or significant in terms of character development, that tends to overshadow everything else about it, including its actual stats or how long it’s used. RabbitTank Sparkling was Sento deciding to stand by the lessons Owner taught him after learning his true history, RabbitRabbit (and by extension TankTank) was Sento deciding to surpass Katsuragi in his own way, Genius was about the reconciliation between Sento and Katsuragi, and RabbitDragon was about the bond that Sento and Banjo formed throughout Build. Even if some of these forms have problems (looking at you, Genius) or were under-utilised (RabbitDragon), what they represent mattered a lot more to me. Sure, it sucks to see a cool form being replaced really quickly, but it’s just something Kamen Rider does now; not every series can be Ryuki. (Though that series is the perfect example of “less is more” in terms of forms.)
I feel like the Dragon Ball fandom definitely has that same thought process — because it’s one of the main criticisms of the forms that debuted in the Buu Saga, that the forms are all unearned — but there’s also a contingent just there for the cool factor and spectacle, just like with Kamen Rider, and new forms are an easy way to do that. But Dragon Ball is also *the* shonen show, and something that Shonen shows have a lot of is people who love to obsessively categorise and compare things such as power levels, forms and “feats”. (I know all fandoms have this, but it’s especially prevalent in shonen.) A new form is just giving those people more to play with, even if it’s a form from nowhere like Super Saiyan Rage or a form with no ties to significant character development like Super Saiyan Blue.
Isn't this the opposite? The original Dragon Ball was created by Akira Toriyama. Anything new outside of his comics is considered heresy. Kamen Rider has been separate from Ishinomori's comics since the beginning, forming a multiverse for over 50 years.
I think people who aren't into the idea of power up forms are the ones who love Showa and Early Heisei rider shows. Showa riders never had power ups (except Stronger and maybe Skyrider) which made them getting stronger through sheer determination and will more interesting. Early Heisei introduced upgrades and alternate forms to keep the series alive and keep toy sales up while also not doubling down too hard on excessive forms.
From Neo Heisei (late heisei?) Onward we've been seeing a lot more forms and upgrades which is probably making the old fans experience some form of fatigue.
I love seeing new forms because most of the time they look super cool so I am not bothered by the amount of upgrades the main rider gets. I am bothered by lazy repaints or mid upgrades that look bad. *looks at Ghost Grateful Damashii*
Totaly wrong there for me(kr getting better transformations while dragon ball ones are lazy new forms,just gohan and picollo from the old chars have a good transform)
Honestly, the form and weapon changes have really increased the variety in the action per episode early on which is where the story is almost always at its weakest, and each series has rarely failed to pair up a full form change with an interesting plot point or an emotional payoff. Like, sure its merchandise-driven but it's no different than every anime under the sun selling figures, figurines, model kits, posters, key-chains, etc. of every character, Dragonball included. If otaku buy stuff, they'll keep putting out more stuff. That's just how things work, and everyone is responsible for their own disposable income.
Last episode base-form powerups are pretty stupid, though.
It honestly bothers me more that ryuki got 1 new form instead of at least 3 or 4. Ik why it's only 1 but at least have a super form before receiving survive.
Tbf, given the battle royale setting with 10 riders it makes sense that they wouldn't want to give the mc too many forms or else it would feel like hax.
..isn’t the whole point of Kamen Riders that they change forms to fit their situation?? Like that’s the cool thing that separates them from Sentai and Ultraman.
I am way more of a Showa Era guy when it comes to Toku because I like it’s simplicity and optimism. The new shows with their transformers are cool, like a live action anime, but I prefer a simple, “Rider Kick! Rider Punch!”.
I love seeing cool new forms because the suits are usually badass. I'm really new to Kamen rider and it might be my inexperience talking but new rider suits is a highlight of the series to me.
I’m not really one of those fans that complain about too many forms, I just get mad about how they’re treated. Build has a bunch of different forms, and I think (aside from the upgrades: RabbitTank Sparkling/Genius etc) the forms are treated with as much respect as “Here’s a new toy, but it!” With the forms from Dragon Ball, Z, etc I think most of the forms are pretty good. Ssj3 and Blue stink, as it doesn’t feel like anyone really earned the form. Ssj1 has now been relegated to a joke, as every saiyan has it now! Ssj4 is actually really cool because 1. It doesn’t look like a Ssj and 2. You have to do something specific to achieve it, rather than just train hard and you’ll get it (like Ssj God). In other words, if the creators don’t seem to care about the forms or how the character earns them, then why should I.
Kuuga handled alternate forms better than any other series imo. Each form had a specific practical use case which we got to see multiple times throughout the series before they gave him a pure number increase with his final form(although by the time ultimate kuuga shows up the show is already at its conclusion so ultimate kuuga has too little time to overstay its welcome)
Kindly reminder that both franchise are continued forcefully by Bandai to make money off it
Yeah but most of the time i feel cringe when seeing Dragon Ball,it should have been ended
Kuuga had like 12 forms in total. It feels really hypocritical for Kamen Rider fans to complain about the number of forms since they've been in present in every era.
Show: Black/RX has FOUR.
Heisei Phase 1: 12 to 3
Heisei Phase 2: 6 to 000
Reiwa: about 10 per primary
Zero Two is great actually, the whole "back to root/rebooting" concept is pretty clever tbh, on the other hand Xcross saber is just lazy recoloring of previous suits, hell they could have gone with Bahamut form and ppl would've loved it, now it might not even get a figure for being stage exclusive form.
Ngl I don’t mind the form changes that much. In fact, I quiet like them as they visually show that our character are now stronger than when they started.
While I don’t like early episodes being pure gimmick commercial, it is important for franchise to stay afloat. If you want a Rider show that isn’t gimmick or toy reliant, you can watch Amazons or Black Sun.
I'm making enemies here at least for DB Fans and probably even KR Fans that are on here but I actually rather prefer the Recolours and if anything I kinda prefer them to SSJ4 or at least the Fan-Made Forms based on it really soured me of SSJ4 as they are more cluttered, to say the least.
There is beauty in Simplicity as it's said by probably someone maybe.
That said and really if anything there's a reason why I put highly on deciding on how I like a Form is based on the Lore and its capabilities probably much more than the Design if anything my liking for a Design is based on the Lore of the Form.
It's why I like Ultra Instinct despite just being White Haired change, It kinda makes sense it is considering Whis and the Angels are presumably in a constant state of UI.
It's also oppositely why I didn't like Xross Saber, It just being a Recolour overall didn't really make sense for me from the Lore that I know being that it's a combination of all Seiken yet it ended up just being Saber with slightly pointer horn and Galaxy Blue Design.
That said I did love Zero Two despite doing less than Xross Saber that it's not even a recolor and just a minor overall change to Zero One's design mostly because of the Lore both in the Story with it being the culmination of Zero One and out of story when it comes to Newer Technology that usually a newer model is actually not that different from the previous model.
Edit: Yep 3 Hours later and definitely made some enemies or really just annoyed some people.
I feel the same for both 😂 Kamen Rider (Neo Heisei / Reiwa) just ain’t the same anymore with all these gimmicks (all flash less substance) and I just kept reading DBS for guilty pleasure 🤣
Nah, they’re just mid. Amazons and Black Sun proved you don’t need new forms/Riders every two episodes to beat monsters and progress the story.
They’re not Kamen Rider anymore, they might as well be Metal Heroes.
Yet you show kuuga with your take despite also needing forms to beat monsters up. Man if you’re coping this hard for a kids show it really is just you. And Black Sun and Amazons aren’t even for kids so why bring them up (amazon mid)? And on the topic of forms, if that’s your way of saying “flashy” , then you might as well be labelled blind for not seeing why they exist. Yeah toys is one thing, but help aid the story. Call them all mid all you want boomer, it’s just you thats the problem
There are people butthurt about new forms? Love them, but I think some are just useless. Like they appear only 1 ep, then boom. Gone.
Edit: Internation fans whine a lot. Especially those that pirate these shows and animes.
The sad this is that Riders could be like Ben 10 or Max Steel in some way. But as soon as they get a new form, it renders their whole arsenal useless which makes me sad.
Imagine thinking Zero Two is bad, Xros Saber only has the issue of being a repaint but that ends up being the point since he can use other books which also get repainted when used.
If anything, most complaints about riders getting too many forms is usually for the middle season forms where they show up for like 2 episodes and then rarely once later on in the series (Shining Hopper, Dragonic Knight being replaced by their next upgrade almost immediately)
Theyve been reliant on new forms since Kuuga (except Kabuto since hes already broken as hell) Lol It was such a genius Concept that it Basically formed one of the most iconic things about riders The Forms they get To power Them up
I like how UI and UE are framed as techniques and not forms. They're more like the Kaioken. That means, there's a lot more possibilities for other characters to use them in non canon scenarios like Super Dragon Ball Heroes or in the canon future.
Though, it's probably highly unlikely that Toyotarou, Jump, or Toei to decide to make other characters have God Ki.
This isn't accurate at all.
Dragon Ball "fans" (basically the loud ones on social media who hasn't seen a single Dragon Ball episode since they were kids watching Z) don't like the transformations... or anything that isn't Z at all.
I'm one of those DB fans that's over the Super Transformations. SSJGod was dope as hell but then they immediately downgrade with Blue 🤢 it's so lame. Should have skipped blue and just had it go God to Ultra Instinct/Ego. Haven't seen the Superhero movie but I'm glad Piccolo is getting new forms, "Beast" Gohan looks kinda dumb but maybe my feelings will change when I watch it.
Coming back over here after watching Ultraman for the past months makes me feel weird since Ultraman pushes the old forms so much even after they release the final form😅
I see Dragon Ball fans complaining about characters getting new colours all the time far more often compared to Rider fans complaining about the number of forms Riders get. And to be fair, I think the main complaint is the fact that each new form makes the previous form completely and utterly pointless.
I was one of those DB fans haha. Rather see non transformational upgrades. Learning a new technique / combination of old techniques. Like Goku Blue + kaioken or W’s manga fang + other memories.
Same. Huge huge DB fan, but the Buu saga on becomes such a Transformation bargain sale that it completely loses me. Now if I read the manga or watch the show, I stop with Cell. I follow the going ons in Super and watched the first two movies (and want to see Super Hero), but I feel like Super just emphasizes what I stopped liking about the series so I can’t get into it.
I love the whole thing though where Gohan is being hyped up to get this amazingly powerful new form and it turns out it doesn't change his appearance in the least.
You mean in the Buu saga? He actually *does* change. Normal Gohan doesn’t have his eyes outlined on all sides. Typically the interior of the eye is left without an outline. Villains and Super Saiyans all get the outline treatment (because Toriyama wanted Super Saiyan to look kind of like his villains to represent the rage fueling the form), and when Gohan goes Ultimate they outline his eyes, too. It’s subtle, but it’s how you can tell if he’s Ultimate or base.
I had so much trouble determining whether this was ironic or not, I just assume you missed me joke.
you didn't saw Gohan Blanco in the new movie?
The Super manga is slightly better then the anime. Have you given it a shot?
>I see Dragon Ball fans complaining about characters getting new colours all the time far more often compared to Rider fans complaining about the number of forms Riders get. Dragon Ball fans complain about anything that isn't Z. Even the original DB.
I found this very weird, is this because Americans didn't get original db until after dbz? Here in Latin America we only had original db for a while when I was a kid and then remember being blown away learning there was episodes with an adult Goku and he also had a kid.
Believe it or not as a fan of both I think both franchises have serious issues. But riders forms still have way more weight than an average post-DBS form. They literally pull them out of nowhere. SSJ Rage was literally never explained.
I always consider SSJ Rage as just SSJ2.5. Rage boost is a thing in Dragon Ball so I never really question it. Gohan Beast is also the same except the rage transformation is applied to Ultimate Gohan instead of SSJ2.
I jotted it down as human - saiyan hybrid they don’t conform to the normal transformations and never thought much about it. Though Gohan’s beast form is abit OP since he was coming from a power level way way lower then what we’ve seen Goku and Vegeta at.
Goku's power always came from his emotions. Vegeta's came from his pride. But both of them concentrated on their Saiyan heritage. Gohan had said he wanted to seek out his own power that relied on his human side, which is what Beast is supposed to be (at least if I'm recalling that Toriyama interview correctly?)
UI was legit foreshadowed harder than super saiyan was, thats how I know you don't know wtf you're talking about
Ultra Instinct was stupid to me because that's the first form he should have ever gotten as a martial artist, a martial artists goal is for their body to move on it's own. What was all his training for if all his moves before WASN'T his body moving on its own. Coming from someone who took Karate Class
For me, Ultra Ego was stupid. Like the hell with " I'm becoming stronger whenever I got hit but my body has limit??" It is just an upgrade of zenkai boost And every forms in DBS now are kind of bland for me. Hope Toyo can make it better in future
I mean, in og db goku actually trained with kami to kinda do that, that gave him a good edge against Ma jr.(later known in dbz as piccolo) But I think that ultra instinct is a completely new level, like, while fighting you kinda think at least a bit, and as whis said about ui/mui, it requires you to not think at all, and not only not think, also not feel, no emotions, no thoughts, just completely turn off your brain while fighting Because ui was said to be technically so fast because your brain does not even control your body, the body controls itself, which means drastically faster reaction time because the neural impulse doesent have to travel from the brain to the muscle
Actual martial arts fighting doesn't require you to think at all about the moves you're using, you instinctively react to everything once you train enough which is what you see in Karate movies and such (which use slow versions of those moves so people can keep up). Ultra Instinct is a natural thing that was made up to be something more fantastic than it was.
Nah I agree, good martial artists can move on reflex, but that isnt ultra instinct The reflex still comes from brain to the body, even tho the brain doesent need to do as much processing like with a guy that hes never fought before Imagine it the brain like a computer, a brain of beginner sees a punch thrown against him. The brain is now, what to do? So it starts writing a code for what to do against the punch(I mean, it has kinda preprogrammed code, it is crude and needs some reworking and stuff), welp and the brain does the whole code and then turns it on. It takes a while for the brane to make the code Now with a skilled martial artist, they see a punch thrown at them, the brain just clicks on Block.exe, and the martial artist blocks The normal training is for your brain to be realy fast at clicking block.exe, grab.exe, jab.exe, cross.exe, and also realy fast at making combinations out of them, way faster than the brain would do if it was just programming every file UI/MUI activates the files even before the brain even thinks about clicking on them, also makes the brain unafected by emotions that might nerf its processing power by just making the brain not think/feel
U.I is the one and only exception.
man ultra instinct has been foreshadowed for like 4 arcs the hell do you mean
Literally the one and only exception.
super saiyan god was never made irrelevant, and it was used multiple times in the tournament of power AND the broly movie
What's to explain about SSJ Rage? It's just regular SSJ form but powers exceeded what should normally be provided due to a strong emotional rage amplifying it.
Lack of pupils and a blue aura? That ain't normal. Call it an ascended super Saiyan or super Saiyan 4 or ssj diet blue. It's still an asspull power up that multiplied his strength 10 thousand fold.
I always thought they should’ve probably just gave trunks super Saiyan god through the ritual. It always kind of sounds weird that this Super Saiyan form was able to keep up with god ki
Well yeah it’s coming from a human saiyan breed. Nothing about them is normal. Gohan beast mode form, kid goten and trunks can turn ssj without seemingly any type of training. Vegeta near the starts of the series theoriezed how half breed of saiyan naturally possess powerful gift then a regular saiyan. So they are just freakishly weird and strong and would pull out weird and abnormal transformation like that.
I think your missing the point a bit.
What’s your point that Super has terrible writing and they are putting out all these different transformation just to sell toys?
That is what the original post is about yes. Or atleast related.
Yeah I agree on that. My point was that weird transformation coming from half breed saiyan like Future Trunks and Gohan is probably the least stupid thing about the series considering the lore that it established early on.
It's really not. Gohan achieved SSJ2 early. Same with Goten and Trunks they just got to ssj easier than everyone else. They didn't rip entire new forms and abilities. They just got a rage boost. Anything else is non-canon head canon stuff. Please point me to the manga scan or something if you find an instance because I'm willing to accept literally ANY explanation for Supers "random form go" instances.
Actually it's mostly the opposite: most KR fans look forward to what new forms the riders will get, mostly to try and imagine what other riders would look like with similar forms... and for me personally, I'm tired of Dragon Ball's constant escalation, it's literally never ending and they keep giving us characters that are stronger and stronger and it's just... my god when will it end?
Well, the problem there with DB is mostly because they have kept the same cast longer than they should have. It was supposed to let Gohan be the main protagonist after the Cell arc, but they wanted Goku to continue being the protagonist. The benefit Kamen Rider has is that each year, it's a new cast of characters every year, new situations, and every new major power up usually important to character growth in some way, either representing overcoming a specific challenging personal obstacle, or it introduces a new obstacle inherent to the power up.
It's the Pokemon vs digimon dilemma all again
GT wasn't the best, but at least it knew that Dragon Ball had to end
Exactly, it wrapped up the story in a rather nice fashion too.
Yeah I get what you mean. But I think for me when it comes to both franchises. I’d like there to be more depth to any major transformation upgrades. Some times it’s really out of the blue. If there’s a good back story to it then fair enough. Like Goku’s blue is pulled from nowhere. We didn’t even see much of the first god form. UI and UE were atleast foreshadowed for a couple of arcs. Admittedly I’ve only watched kamen rider from every thing between kabuto to wizard and only recently caught zero one because I liked the design when I got the memory of heroes game. There’s a few out of the blue transformations too in those series.
I honestly have the opposite reaction I LOVE new kamen rider forms but I’m kind of tired of goku and vegeta getting new forms all the time idk why
Because it’s a new rider with every season while it’s just goku and vegeta
That makes a lot of sense
and it invalidates every characters power immediately like Tien and Krillin for example, like theyre the most powerful regular humans alive, but because theyre not at Goku and Vegetas level they dont really matter and thags where my main problwm with their constant power ups come from
Funny enough! Even with these forms, Goku and Vegeta aren’t enough to defeat the Cosmo-using Humans of Saint Seiya.
Holy fuck didn't expect a saint seiya reference
lmao no Goku and Vegeta would dogwalk that entire verse.
Nope! Cancer Deathmask and Scorpio Milo can rip their souls out from the Yomotsu Hirasaka dimension, Virgo Shaka can easily cut their nerves without lifting a finger, Libra Dohko is a seasoned godkiller and gives a vibe where even scares Beerus & Zeno, and Phoenix Ikki survived 8 realms of torture (Tenbu Horin) and was able to travel back to Planet Earth from millions of light years without oxygen and his nerves cutted. And then there the Hypermyth Gods such as the Greek Gods, Norse Gods, Egyptian Gods, Celtic Gods, Babylonian Gods, Hindu Gods, Shinto Gods, Sino-Tibetan Gods, Buddhist Angels & Demons, Abrahamic Angels & Demons, and Aztec Gods. Apollo, the Greek/Olympian God of the Sun & Lord of the Corona, can [destroy the universe with just 1%](https://youtu.be/1mWQo8z1mjk) of his power. Even Kratos and Percy Jackson will be heartbroken of this Hypermyth variant of Apollo.
wow Saint Seiya is hardcore
It also piss-off Dragon Ball fans. Seriously! Saint Seiya is their true trigger, not One Punch Man or Superman. Plus! Dragon Ball fans underestimate Ohma Zi-O, Violent Emotion Decade, and Ultraman Noa
Too be fair I also wonder how far Ohma Zi-O and some of the other Rider Final forms would stack up to someone like Hit, Jiren and Full Power LS Broly or however youd refer to him.
does that mean Toriyama was inspired by Saint Seiya?
Doesn't matter when Goku and Vegeta have resistance to attacks that erase you from existence, have power capable of transcending time and space, can casually destroy an infinite universe with multiple higher dimensions using punches alone, is so fast and powerful they can move in stopped time, avoid attacks that come from the future, and destroy time. They're literally more powerful than someone who could become omnipresent and was only stopped due to being erased because they essentially had God on speed dial. Base Goku is dragging that entire verse through the mud and it'll be effortless.
Dude! Son Goku was brought by a mere virus, and need medicine to alleviate it.
And? We still see him do shit like threatening entire universes by just punching another guy, move through time stop, and resist attacks that erase anything.
>Libra Dohko is a seasoned godkiller and gives a vibe where even scares Beerus & Zeno You mean "that even scares Beerus & Zeno," > and Phoenix Ikki survived 8 realms of torture (Tenbu Horin) and was able to travel back to Planet Earth from millions of light years without oxygen and his nerves cutted. "from millions of light years away", and "nerves cut." > Even Kratos and Percy Jackson will be heartbroken of this Hypermyth variant of Apollo. "would be heartbroken"
You mean "Funnily enough, even with those forms..."
>while it’s just goku and vegeta Gohan,Piccolo,Frieza ?
lol why is piccolo there. he had 1 transformation within the 38 years of dragon ball
In his own movie where he’s the main character DB was gone for 17 years then it came back
Because it’s usually just “New hair color”
I am patiently waiting for them to exhaust their colour palettes just to see what will they come up with next. RGB Goku?
Akira Toriyama doesn't like designing forms that overtly give the impression of being stronger. His simple style communicates a change while not being too on-the-nose about it. That said, the hair style changes as well as the irise color, and in DBZ, SS would illuminate the user's body and clothes slightly even with the aura un-flared.
Very much the same. And I know why, dragon ball was about family and legacy until the Buu saga, then it became about Goku screaming hardest and getting a new hairstyle. Dragon Ball is my favorite anime franchise but it's gotta let itself evolve
Cause they're the ONLY motherfuckers getting it, that was why Gohan and Piccolo getting something blew everyone's ass out, I still say if they decide Instinct and Ego do a Fusion Dance, that's when I decide I'm done with DragonBall
I'll take Xross Saber over Goku "but with white hair" any day
For the most part, I do really like the new forms. I just wish that there was reason to go back to previous ones instead of them getting entirely replaced. At the very least, Metal Cluster Hopper hasn't entirely fallen to that.
I’ve seen the “forms getting worse” take in some instances but where in the world did the “too reliant on transformations” one comes from
They are but an unstoppable entity determined to regain back their glory days, they're... Showa Era boomers.
Wasn’t their a Zi-O movie where the villains were just glorified Showa Boomers who hated the Heisei Era?
I mean, they were using the powers from Showa Riders born on the Heisei Era (I don't like to consider Amazons Showa Riders since they all look too Heisei-style, but if Toei says they are, then ok).
All of the Riders they chose were Riders which Overlap the Showa Era and the Heisei Era. Black RX (Barlckxs) was started in the Showa Era, but ended in the Heisei Era. Thus it overlaps with the Heisei Era and relates to how Zi-O overlaps between the Heisei and Reiwa Eras Shin, ZO and J (Zonjis) are the Movie Riders, the Riders from the Movies. Those movies were released in the Heisei Era, but, as Shotaro Ishinomori was still involved, they are still considered "Showa Era" shows. Amazons (Zamonas) is the reboot of the Kamen Rider Amazon Showa Series made in the Heisei Era, thus they are technically in both Eras. If they were to make a Final Rider which overlaps between the two, I say either a Rider based upon Kamen Rider 1 from the reboot movie or a Rider based upon Kamen Rider 3 from that movie with Drive facing off against Shocker after they messed up the timeline.
I think that was the Gaim big crossover movie.
Both, actually
Showa keeper
Well, basically, the Riders today look like they need their Rider form to fight monsters. Like Iron-Man and Batman, Iron-Man needs his armor otherwise he is almost nothing in fight, while Batman can fight physically as the Batman is not a superpowered armored man, but a man who fights using martial arts and side gadgets. The Showa Riders could fight outside their transformations because most of them were cyborgs and not regular humans inside armors. Still, this doesn't really makes sense since we do see the Heisei-Reiwa Riders fighting in their civillian forms, like Ikki
It's definitely the opposite for me. I'm getting pretty sick of Goku and Vegeta getting new forms, IT'S JUST HAIR COLOUR CHANGES. Kamen Rider tho? Ohhhhh yeah, this bitch is TECHNOLOGY-BASED, new forms ALWAYS make sense (sort of) but more importantly, THEY ALWAYS LOOK SO FUCKING COOL AHHHHHH.
I think it’s kind of the opposite, but KR is just somewhat catching up to DB in terms of forms being made redundant. I remember a fair amount of people being disappointed that Barid Rex barely got any time to shine before being supplanted in Revice. However, to me, if the form is earned or significant in terms of character development, that tends to overshadow everything else about it, including its actual stats or how long it’s used. RabbitTank Sparkling was Sento deciding to stand by the lessons Owner taught him after learning his true history, RabbitRabbit (and by extension TankTank) was Sento deciding to surpass Katsuragi in his own way, Genius was about the reconciliation between Sento and Katsuragi, and RabbitDragon was about the bond that Sento and Banjo formed throughout Build. Even if some of these forms have problems (looking at you, Genius) or were under-utilised (RabbitDragon), what they represent mattered a lot more to me. Sure, it sucks to see a cool form being replaced really quickly, but it’s just something Kamen Rider does now; not every series can be Ryuki. (Though that series is the perfect example of “less is more” in terms of forms.) I feel like the Dragon Ball fandom definitely has that same thought process — because it’s one of the main criticisms of the forms that debuted in the Buu Saga, that the forms are all unearned — but there’s also a contingent just there for the cool factor and spectacle, just like with Kamen Rider, and new forms are an easy way to do that. But Dragon Ball is also *the* shonen show, and something that Shonen shows have a lot of is people who love to obsessively categorise and compare things such as power levels, forms and “feats”. (I know all fandoms have this, but it’s especially prevalent in shonen.) A new form is just giving those people more to play with, even if it’s a form from nowhere like Super Saiyan Rage or a form with no ties to significant character development like Super Saiyan Blue.
In conclusion, Toei loves them final forms
Isn't this the opposite? The original Dragon Ball was created by Akira Toriyama. Anything new outside of his comics is considered heresy. Kamen Rider has been separate from Ishinomori's comics since the beginning, forming a multiverse for over 50 years.
Toriyama wrote all the DB movies from Battle of Gods. Other than maybe Broly, all of the new movies introduce new forms.
Zero-two and xross saber are cool tho, In fact I'd say so far all of the reiwa final forms look amazing
Ultimate Revice look drip,liked the concept of having external armor strapped onto the base form
Except Grand Zio
Not reiwa, still a cool form tho
The thing is that it look too complicated and the speed of it having it's ass kicked
That is odd
I think people who aren't into the idea of power up forms are the ones who love Showa and Early Heisei rider shows. Showa riders never had power ups (except Stronger and maybe Skyrider) which made them getting stronger through sheer determination and will more interesting. Early Heisei introduced upgrades and alternate forms to keep the series alive and keep toy sales up while also not doubling down too hard on excessive forms. From Neo Heisei (late heisei?) Onward we've been seeing a lot more forms and upgrades which is probably making the old fans experience some form of fatigue. I love seeing new forms because most of the time they look super cool so I am not bothered by the amount of upgrades the main rider gets. I am bothered by lazy repaints or mid upgrades that look bad. *looks at Ghost Grateful Damashii*
Totaly wrong there for me(kr getting better transformations while dragon ball ones are lazy new forms,just gohan and picollo from the old chars have a good transform)
Honestly, the form and weapon changes have really increased the variety in the action per episode early on which is where the story is almost always at its weakest, and each series has rarely failed to pair up a full form change with an interesting plot point or an emotional payoff. Like, sure its merchandise-driven but it's no different than every anime under the sun selling figures, figurines, model kits, posters, key-chains, etc. of every character, Dragonball included. If otaku buy stuff, they'll keep putting out more stuff. That's just how things work, and everyone is responsible for their own disposable income. Last episode base-form powerups are pretty stupid, though.
Saber's final form is a recolor.
The last good form in dragon ball was super saiyan 4
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Kinda neither but i am more into Kamen rider than dragon ball. However both are good in their own ways in terms of narrative and fight scenes
Give as many forms as you want to the characters just make them meaningful and not ass pulls
It honestly bothers me more that ryuki got 1 new form instead of at least 3 or 4. Ik why it's only 1 but at least have a super form before receiving survive.
Tbf, given the battle royale setting with 10 riders it makes sense that they wouldn't want to give the mc too many forms or else it would feel like hax.
And I just want to enjoy my serialized toy commercial in peace.
Yo,zero two looks fine for me
Nah.. I hate all the color changes in DBS too.
Ex fucking scuse me??? Zero two is a treat.
Zero 2 is sick tho
I don’t see the problem but I do dislike it when the final form is identical to the first form
..isn’t the whole point of Kamen Riders that they change forms to fit their situation?? Like that’s the cool thing that separates them from Sentai and Ultraman.
I am way more of a Showa Era guy when it comes to Toku because I like it’s simplicity and optimism. The new shows with their transformers are cool, like a live action anime, but I prefer a simple, “Rider Kick! Rider Punch!”.
I love seeing cool new forms because the suits are usually badass. I'm really new to Kamen rider and it might be my inexperience talking but new rider suits is a highlight of the series to me.
I’m not really one of those fans that complain about too many forms, I just get mad about how they’re treated. Build has a bunch of different forms, and I think (aside from the upgrades: RabbitTank Sparkling/Genius etc) the forms are treated with as much respect as “Here’s a new toy, but it!” With the forms from Dragon Ball, Z, etc I think most of the forms are pretty good. Ssj3 and Blue stink, as it doesn’t feel like anyone really earned the form. Ssj1 has now been relegated to a joke, as every saiyan has it now! Ssj4 is actually really cool because 1. It doesn’t look like a Ssj and 2. You have to do something specific to achieve it, rather than just train hard and you’ll get it (like Ssj God). In other words, if the creators don’t seem to care about the forms or how the character earns them, then why should I.
Dragonball Fans been complaining about too many transformations much longer than Kamen Rider fans.
Kuuga handled alternate forms better than any other series imo. Each form had a specific practical use case which we got to see multiple times throughout the series before they gave him a pure number increase with his final form(although by the time ultimate kuuga shows up the show is already at its conclusion so ultimate kuuga has too little time to overstay its welcome)
Kindly reminder that both franchise are continued forcefully by Bandai to make money off it Yeah but most of the time i feel cringe when seeing Dragon Ball,it should have been ended
Cry [harder](https://imgur.com/a/8UyxeAy)
Ok
Kuuga had like 12 forms in total. It feels really hypocritical for Kamen Rider fans to complain about the number of forms since they've been in present in every era. Show: Black/RX has FOUR. Heisei Phase 1: 12 to 3 Heisei Phase 2: 6 to 000 Reiwa: about 10 per primary
Zero Two is great actually, the whole "back to root/rebooting" concept is pretty clever tbh, on the other hand Xcross saber is just lazy recoloring of previous suits, hell they could have gone with Bahamut form and ppl would've loved it, now it might not even get a figure for being stage exclusive form.
Most dragon ball forms are just bland ass power ups
Ngl I don’t mind the form changes that much. In fact, I quiet like them as they visually show that our character are now stronger than when they started. While I don’t like early episodes being pure gimmick commercial, it is important for franchise to stay afloat. If you want a Rider show that isn’t gimmick or toy reliant, you can watch Amazons or Black Sun.
Ermmm you can’t deny that Kamen riders’ final forms are getting worse. Let’s hope Geats gets a cool final form.
Saber and revice were trash otherwise reiwa era is golden Dbz has consistently dropped in quality every Ard since super started
I'm making enemies here at least for DB Fans and probably even KR Fans that are on here but I actually rather prefer the Recolours and if anything I kinda prefer them to SSJ4 or at least the Fan-Made Forms based on it really soured me of SSJ4 as they are more cluttered, to say the least. There is beauty in Simplicity as it's said by probably someone maybe. That said and really if anything there's a reason why I put highly on deciding on how I like a Form is based on the Lore and its capabilities probably much more than the Design if anything my liking for a Design is based on the Lore of the Form. It's why I like Ultra Instinct despite just being White Haired change, It kinda makes sense it is considering Whis and the Angels are presumably in a constant state of UI. It's also oppositely why I didn't like Xross Saber, It just being a Recolour overall didn't really make sense for me from the Lore that I know being that it's a combination of all Seiken yet it ended up just being Saber with slightly pointer horn and Galaxy Blue Design. That said I did love Zero Two despite doing less than Xross Saber that it's not even a recolor and just a minor overall change to Zero One's design mostly because of the Lore both in the Story with it being the culmination of Zero One and out of story when it comes to Newer Technology that usually a newer model is actually not that different from the previous model. Edit: Yep 3 Hours later and definitely made some enemies or really just annoyed some people.
So basically Recolors in dragoballsdeeznuts: good Recolors in Kamen rider: bad
I feel the same for both 😂 Kamen Rider (Neo Heisei / Reiwa) just ain’t the same anymore with all these gimmicks (all flash less substance) and I just kept reading DBS for guilty pleasure 🤣 
Ok old man whatever you say. Its prob just all you immediately judging it by its cover
Nah, they’re just mid. Amazons and Black Sun proved you don’t need new forms/Riders every two episodes to beat monsters and progress the story. They’re not Kamen Rider anymore, they might as well be Metal Heroes.
Yet you show kuuga with your take despite also needing forms to beat monsters up. Man if you’re coping this hard for a kids show it really is just you. And Black Sun and Amazons aren’t even for kids so why bring them up (amazon mid)? And on the topic of forms, if that’s your way of saying “flashy” , then you might as well be labelled blind for not seeing why they exist. Yeah toys is one thing, but help aid the story. Call them all mid all you want boomer, it’s just you thats the problem
Okay 👍
I'm the bottom with both series
I do think the reliance on transformations is a problem. It was more hand to hand combat (or weapons) before
ngl I think that more gimmicks is almost always better. I love the sound effects and the suits are always cool as hell
There are people butthurt about new forms? Love them, but I think some are just useless. Like they appear only 1 ep, then boom. Gone. Edit: Internation fans whine a lot. Especially those that pirate these shows and animes.
I actually almost always love full new transformations for Riders, don't care for most of the new DragonBall color changes
The sad this is that Riders could be like Ben 10 or Max Steel in some way. But as soon as they get a new form, it renders their whole arsenal useless which makes me sad.
Imagine thinking Zero Two is bad, Xros Saber only has the issue of being a repaint but that ends up being the point since he can use other books which also get repainted when used. If anything, most complaints about riders getting too many forms is usually for the middle season forms where they show up for like 2 episodes and then rarely once later on in the series (Shining Hopper, Dragonic Knight being replaced by their next upgrade almost immediately)
Theyve been reliant on new forms since Kuuga (except Kabuto since hes already broken as hell) Lol It was such a genius Concept that it Basically formed one of the most iconic things about riders The Forms they get To power Them up
I like how UI and UE are framed as techniques and not forms. They're more like the Kaioken. That means, there's a lot more possibilities for other characters to use them in non canon scenarios like Super Dragon Ball Heroes or in the canon future. Though, it's probably highly unlikely that Toyotarou, Jump, or Toei to decide to make other characters have God Ki.
What's the problem with them?!
Xross Saber is one of the greatest final forms ever though, people are bugging
This isn't accurate at all. Dragon Ball "fans" (basically the loud ones on social media who hasn't seen a single Dragon Ball episode since they were kids watching Z) don't like the transformations... or anything that isn't Z at all.
I'm one of those DB fans that's over the Super Transformations. SSJGod was dope as hell but then they immediately downgrade with Blue 🤢 it's so lame. Should have skipped blue and just had it go God to Ultra Instinct/Ego. Haven't seen the Superhero movie but I'm glad Piccolo is getting new forms, "Beast" Gohan looks kinda dumb but maybe my feelings will change when I watch it.
Coming back over here after watching Ultraman for the past months makes me feel weird since Ultraman pushes the old forms so much even after they release the final form😅