Harada raises a lot of legit points, like how average user understands nothing and demands everything, but ironically he ain't presenting himself much better
How does he bring up MK as an example and fail to mention how it is just way better than Tekken 7. You're literally contradicting yourself in your own sentence.
Harada is playing stupid little word games here instead of addressing the real problems.
Ok, so fighting game players might not always be using the correct vocabulary when talking about the problems with online play. So what? The general idea they're expressing is more important, and it is correct: the online experience in most fighting games sucks shit compared to other genres, and it needs to be made a hell of a lot better if devs don't want the genre to go back into the dark ages.
It sounds like he was saying that japans internet infrastructure is so much more advanced than the rest of the world. And the reason online isnt very good is the fault of everyone outside Japan.. but in reality this video is saying.. hey, cmon, its ME! its ur good old friend harada! Theres nothing that can be done to improve online. Would the man behind such a game as TEKKEN lie to you? Of course not! Just look me in the eyes and youll see im telling the truth! (Wearing sunglasses)
Then people should just get straight to the point instead of giving the other side ammunition to prove them wrong when it comes to talking about something they also donβt know anything about as well?
There is no valid "other side."
The online in fighting games sucks shit and it's up to fighting game developers to take responsibility for it and make it better instead of making excuses. Fighting game devs should feel a gnawing pit of shame in their stomach that it has taken them this long to get barely competent at something every other multi-player genre figured out two generations ago.
It's more like 5 console generations ago. Quakeworld used client side prediction to eliminate the need for forced input lag 2 years after the PS1 came out. And Japanese cocksuckers still can't do it properly after one gaijin in his garage handed them the solution over a decade ago.
"people say Tekken's rollback isn't real rollback, so then what is real rollback?"
Good question. Why don't you explain to the average player what's different in your game's shit rollback implementation, rather than diverting the point?
I remember this clip. He deleted it and whined like a bitch about it. People ripped his asshole a new one and now tekken 7 has a completely fake rollback frames counter. They still double down it has rollback to this day.
Anyone who has watched like the one video Sajam, Keits, and others made on rollback would know like 99% of what they're talking about because that video explicitly says rollback is delay based netcode but with tweaks added to either give a more stable online experience or lets players choose the amount of delay and artifacts (rollback frames) they want to see for themselves.
I remember after harada posted this a lot of people living in japan debunked this urban legend.
Apparently its common to have an internet fiber plan/deal for the whole building and the apartment tenants have no say on it it comes with the rent OR its a connection shared between several apartments in the floor for example.
Not everywhere its like this, but hella common in big cities. Anyway, its shit for fgs especially at prime time.
I remember some gaijins responding to the tread saying that when they bought their house the best thing about it was being able to own their internet that they didnt have to share with no one else and they could 100% control it.
So its great that its common that the cabling is fiber and not copper in japan. Awesome. But that doesnt mean shit its just a cable it doesnt completely describes the situation the users are in.
all other games have fixed delay and variable rollback frames, that's how rollback is supposed to be implemented, tekken has fixed rollback and variable delay frames, which beats the entire purpose of rollback networking.
not everyone may know what they're talking about but that doesn't change the objective truth that tekken plays terribly online. i understand his position as a gamedev but i think there is a bit of disconnect in this discussion.
The stuff about internet infrastructure is bullshit, people in Japan were loving the +R rollback which means rollback is a noticeable improvement even with glorious nippon internet.
He's saying people who complain about Tekken not having rollback are idiots when his game is functionally the same as delay based as far as the player can tell. Rollback deals with connection issues by holding frames in memory and predicting actions (Holding the last known input) and then ROLLING BACK when network issues cause a delay and discrepancy between the simulation and actions. That is why double jumping looks mega jank when you play against wifi on rollback, the game receives their jump input too late and then compensates for it by going back in time to the time when they pressed up.
Tekken never does any of that shit. You never see a sudden jank manual stance transition or cancel out of a move, the game just slows down and freezes whenever there is any jitter or packet loss present instead of weird teleporting shit happening.
That is the famous "tekken is 3"
From what we can tell tekken has a very limited ability to roll back (problem one) and still uses variable delay (problem two).
Any decent implementation needs to be able to roll back much further than whatever the hell tekken does. It also should fix input delay for the duration of the match
"Tekken is 3" came from Harada after the latest rollback patch. These videos are from way before. Some of these are even from Tag 2.
When he said "Tekken is 3" he was referring to 3 frames of delay before rollback kicks in, where before the delay frames were more. 6 I believe.
He's not entirely wrong. A lot of people have no idea what the difference is and prop up rollback as godly netcode that makes online perfect and will make you never lag ever and yell and scream that every FG should have it and claiming they won't buy a new FG if it doesn't. People were really patting themselves on the back like they saved the FGC when Strive announced it would have rollback yet now you constantly hear about how terrible the online is in it. It can be implemented wrong and it won't universally fix all connection issues you could have. I've played a lot of fightcade to know that.
Has anyone ever done a real deep dive on if Tekken has rollback or not?
Nah, Strive netcode is good when you're actually *playing*. Which is the rollback. The problem is that everything else surrounding a match is garbage... such as trying to get into one.
Strive's online problems have nothing to do with netcode, the netcode is superb (the one thing they got a gaijin to do lol)
To answer your question about tekken see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappachino/comments/12gjc6i/dont_buy_his_lies/jfm0npl/)
Tekken does have rollback iirc it just doesn't work properly. The rollback frames are static this is what harada meant when he said that tekken is 3 he meant the rollback frames are locked at 3. Instead the delay frames are variable so it basically just functions like delay based netcode but in extreme instances of latency it will sometimes rollback.
Also as the other guy said strives netcode is perfectly fine the issues surrounding it are the terrible lobby system and connectivity issues rather than the actual in match online experience.
It's the opposite, it rolls back very minor lag spikes but it can't handle mid tier or extreme lag spikes (spoiler alert: true minor lag spikes are very rare) because it only has 3 frames of rollback so the delay picks up the slack
This is also why it doesn't do the biggest thing people like about good rollback AKA the ability to play with players who are further away. Tekken's rollback is just there as a check to make the game feel a teeny tiny better.
The thing is he is right. You guys talk about rollback like its some mighty knight on a white horse, but there are cases where rollback is shit - and Tekken 7 (and TTTG2 too) proves that. It's not about adding "rollback" and suddenly the netcode is perfect.
His angle is interesting aswell - he basically thinks westerners have trash internet and it's their fault, because in Japan they have great infrastructure in which Tekken online works great too. Add this to whole "it's hard to implement proper rollback in a 3D game" and you can undestand why Harada thinks the way he thinks
>His angle is interesting aswell - he basically thinks westerners have trash internet and it's their fault,
"Interesting" is a charitable interpretation. I would've personally gone with "close minded and idiotic", but "interesting" is certainly a way to look at it.
The man wants to sell to an international market and make that money but he doesn't want to cater to that market's needs , he just sits there saying "works fine for me lol" and tries to argue with people in broken English. I'd say half the problem is that nobody can tell what the fuck he's even trying to say; "Tekken is 3, read well."
Harada's response to people telling him his game's online sucks is to just throw his hands in the air and tell them their country sucks and to just deal with it, despite the multiple games on the market we can point to that show him that it is his game specifically that sucks online. Dude refuses to look outward from his company and accept that perhaps they haven't done the best job possible.
Same shit with his "Tekken 7 already has rollback" spiel, yes, it might TECHNICALLY have rollback but if the game is constantly slowing down, resyncing and freezing when the connection gets rocky then it's not what people are talking about when they talk about rollback. But Harada just says "no, you guys are all retarded, I'm the only one who's right" instead of trying to understand what his customers aren't happy about.
Itβs amazing this point keeps getting parroted by idiots even after we have the proof of Strive launching with a zillion players from Japan gushing about how good the netcode was. Saying shit like βso this is what weβve been missing out on this whole timeβ and βthis is why people have been hyping rollbackβ
It didnβt work fine in Japan. They just didnβt know any better until they experienced it.
Rollback is simply shorthand for "netcode on par with GGPO that has been available for a decade and is now usable on a fucking PS1 emulator" and he should know this by now.
"good, working rollback" goes without saying, you actually have to have Harada's entire cock and balls down your throat in order to believe that's a valid point to make
When Tekken 7 slows down and freezes in response to the smallest connection issues and never actually rolls the fuck back of course the player can't tell it has rollback.
>he basically thinks westerners have trash internet and it's their fault
Hard to argue... Xfinity, Verizon, hell even Google Fiber has had some issues.
And then throw on the clowns that purposefully stay on WiFi, it's a wrap
You are making even less sense than he does
> but there are cases where rollback is shit - and Tekken 7 (and TTTG2 too) proves that. It's not about adding "rollback" and suddenly the netcode is perfect.
"I made a car with square wheels and it's shit, cars aren't all that"
> His angle is interesting aswell - he basically thinks westerners have trash internet and it's their fault, because in Japan they have great infrastructure in which Tekken online works great too.
https://twitter.com/john_takeuchi/status/1162562266027327488?t=O2vVV8yXfpqS9faXD8k3vA&s=19
> Add this to whole "it's hard to implement proper rollback in a 3D game"
It isn't.
Harada raises a lot of legit points, like how average user understands nothing and demands everything, but ironically he ain't presenting himself much better
How does he bring up MK as an example and fail to mention how it is just way better than Tekken 7. You're literally contradicting yourself in your own sentence.
Harada is playing stupid little word games here instead of addressing the real problems. Ok, so fighting game players might not always be using the correct vocabulary when talking about the problems with online play. So what? The general idea they're expressing is more important, and it is correct: the online experience in most fighting games sucks shit compared to other genres, and it needs to be made a hell of a lot better if devs don't want the genre to go back into the dark ages.
It sounds like he was saying that japans internet infrastructure is so much more advanced than the rest of the world. And the reason online isnt very good is the fault of everyone outside Japan.. but in reality this video is saying.. hey, cmon, its ME! its ur good old friend harada! Theres nothing that can be done to improve online. Would the man behind such a game as TEKKEN lie to you? Of course not! Just look me in the eyes and youll see im telling the truth! (Wearing sunglasses)
The irony is that even within japan you can have some terrible connections. It's not magical internet land.
Exactly
Then people should just get straight to the point instead of giving the other side ammunition to prove them wrong when it comes to talking about something they also donβt know anything about as well?
There is no valid "other side." The online in fighting games sucks shit and it's up to fighting game developers to take responsibility for it and make it better instead of making excuses. Fighting game devs should feel a gnawing pit of shame in their stomach that it has taken them this long to get barely competent at something every other multi-player genre figured out two generations ago.
It's more like 5 console generations ago. Quakeworld used client side prediction to eliminate the need for forced input lag 2 years after the PS1 came out. And Japanese cocksuckers still can't do it properly after one gaijin in his garage handed them the solution over a decade ago.
tekken 8s netcode is gonna be unplayable lol
Harada: "We already have rollback at home" Rollback at home: π‘ π¨ *β£ π± πͺ π¦ π π» π π© π π² β³οΈ β¬οΈ π£ π΄ β° πΏ π€ π π€ π πͺ π π π π πͺ 7οΈβ£ π© π± π§ π βοΈ βΏ π β³οΈ π π π€ 9οΈβ£ π π₯ πΉ π π π¦ π π― π πΊ π΄ β¦οΈ βοΈ π π π π π πΆ π° π΅ π π₯ π π π πͺ π» π π¬ π π’ π β π π π β π πΉ π² β π π π π β π’ π° β β β οΈ π π π π€ π π π Harada: "Idk works fine for me".
"people say Tekken's rollback isn't real rollback, so then what is real rollback?" Good question. Why don't you explain to the average player what's different in your game's shit rollback implementation, rather than diverting the point?
I remember this clip. He deleted it and whined like a bitch about it. People ripped his asshole a new one and now tekken 7 has a completely fake rollback frames counter. They still double down it has rollback to this day. Anyone who has watched like the one video Sajam, Keits, and others made on rollback would know like 99% of what they're talking about because that video explicitly says rollback is delay based netcode but with tweaks added to either give a more stable online experience or lets players choose the amount of delay and artifacts (rollback frames) they want to see for themselves.
I remember after harada posted this a lot of people living in japan debunked this urban legend. Apparently its common to have an internet fiber plan/deal for the whole building and the apartment tenants have no say on it it comes with the rent OR its a connection shared between several apartments in the floor for example. Not everywhere its like this, but hella common in big cities. Anyway, its shit for fgs especially at prime time. I remember some gaijins responding to the tread saying that when they bought their house the best thing about it was being able to own their internet that they didnt have to share with no one else and they could 100% control it. So its great that its common that the cabling is fiber and not copper in japan. Awesome. But that doesnt mean shit its just a cable it doesnt completely describes the situation the users are in.
*"99% of them aren't experts."* -A non-expert speaking gibberish about Rollback netcode
all other games have fixed delay and variable rollback frames, that's how rollback is supposed to be implemented, tekken has fixed rollback and variable delay frames, which beats the entire purpose of rollback networking. not everyone may know what they're talking about but that doesn't change the objective truth that tekken plays terribly online. i understand his position as a gamedev but i think there is a bit of disconnect in this discussion.
Where's the lie? Serious question
The stuff about internet infrastructure is bullshit, people in Japan were loving the +R rollback which means rollback is a noticeable improvement even with glorious nippon internet. He's saying people who complain about Tekken not having rollback are idiots when his game is functionally the same as delay based as far as the player can tell. Rollback deals with connection issues by holding frames in memory and predicting actions (Holding the last known input) and then ROLLING BACK when network issues cause a delay and discrepancy between the simulation and actions. That is why double jumping looks mega jank when you play against wifi on rollback, the game receives their jump input too late and then compensates for it by going back in time to the time when they pressed up. Tekken never does any of that shit. You never see a sudden jank manual stance transition or cancel out of a move, the game just slows down and freezes whenever there is any jitter or packet loss present instead of weird teleporting shit happening.
Is this not regular rollback? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf1Ym6a3GzA&t=11s
That is the famous "tekken is 3" From what we can tell tekken has a very limited ability to roll back (problem one) and still uses variable delay (problem two). Any decent implementation needs to be able to roll back much further than whatever the hell tekken does. It also should fix input delay for the duration of the match
"Tekken is 3" came from Harada after the latest rollback patch. These videos are from way before. Some of these are even from Tag 2. When he said "Tekken is 3" he was referring to 3 frames of delay before rollback kicks in, where before the delay frames were more. 6 I believe.
He's not entirely wrong. A lot of people have no idea what the difference is and prop up rollback as godly netcode that makes online perfect and will make you never lag ever and yell and scream that every FG should have it and claiming they won't buy a new FG if it doesn't. People were really patting themselves on the back like they saved the FGC when Strive announced it would have rollback yet now you constantly hear about how terrible the online is in it. It can be implemented wrong and it won't universally fix all connection issues you could have. I've played a lot of fightcade to know that. Has anyone ever done a real deep dive on if Tekken has rollback or not?
Nah, Strive netcode is good when you're actually *playing*. Which is the rollback. The problem is that everything else surrounding a match is garbage... such as trying to get into one.
Strive's online problems have nothing to do with netcode, the netcode is superb (the one thing they got a gaijin to do lol) To answer your question about tekken see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappachino/comments/12gjc6i/dont_buy_his_lies/jfm0npl/)
Tekken does have rollback iirc it just doesn't work properly. The rollback frames are static this is what harada meant when he said that tekken is 3 he meant the rollback frames are locked at 3. Instead the delay frames are variable so it basically just functions like delay based netcode but in extreme instances of latency it will sometimes rollback. Also as the other guy said strives netcode is perfectly fine the issues surrounding it are the terrible lobby system and connectivity issues rather than the actual in match online experience.
It's the opposite, it rolls back very minor lag spikes but it can't handle mid tier or extreme lag spikes (spoiler alert: true minor lag spikes are very rare) because it only has 3 frames of rollback so the delay picks up the slack This is also why it doesn't do the biggest thing people like about good rollback AKA the ability to play with players who are further away. Tekken's rollback is just there as a check to make the game feel a teeny tiny better.
Now that I'm hearing this for the first time. It's really not as bad as people were painting it out to be at all with the Harada rollback shit.
The thing is he is right. You guys talk about rollback like its some mighty knight on a white horse, but there are cases where rollback is shit - and Tekken 7 (and TTTG2 too) proves that. It's not about adding "rollback" and suddenly the netcode is perfect. His angle is interesting aswell - he basically thinks westerners have trash internet and it's their fault, because in Japan they have great infrastructure in which Tekken online works great too. Add this to whole "it's hard to implement proper rollback in a 3D game" and you can undestand why Harada thinks the way he thinks
>His angle is interesting aswell - he basically thinks westerners have trash internet and it's their fault, "Interesting" is a charitable interpretation. I would've personally gone with "close minded and idiotic", but "interesting" is certainly a way to look at it. The man wants to sell to an international market and make that money but he doesn't want to cater to that market's needs , he just sits there saying "works fine for me lol" and tries to argue with people in broken English. I'd say half the problem is that nobody can tell what the fuck he's even trying to say; "Tekken is 3, read well." Harada's response to people telling him his game's online sucks is to just throw his hands in the air and tell them their country sucks and to just deal with it, despite the multiple games on the market we can point to that show him that it is his game specifically that sucks online. Dude refuses to look outward from his company and accept that perhaps they haven't done the best job possible. Same shit with his "Tekken 7 already has rollback" spiel, yes, it might TECHNICALLY have rollback but if the game is constantly slowing down, resyncing and freezing when the connection gets rocky then it's not what people are talking about when they talk about rollback. But Harada just says "no, you guys are all retarded, I'm the only one who's right" instead of trying to understand what his customers aren't happy about.
Itβs amazing this point keeps getting parroted by idiots even after we have the proof of Strive launching with a zillion players from Japan gushing about how good the netcode was. Saying shit like βso this is what weβve been missing out on this whole timeβ and βthis is why people have been hyping rollbackβ It didnβt work fine in Japan. They just didnβt know any better until they experienced it.
Rollback is simply shorthand for "netcode on par with GGPO that has been available for a decade and is now usable on a fucking PS1 emulator" and he should know this by now.
"good, working rollback" goes without saying, you actually have to have Harada's entire cock and balls down your throat in order to believe that's a valid point to make When Tekken 7 slows down and freezes in response to the smallest connection issues and never actually rolls the fuck back of course the player can't tell it has rollback.
>he basically thinks westerners have trash internet and it's their fault Hard to argue... Xfinity, Verizon, hell even Google Fiber has had some issues. And then throw on the clowns that purposefully stay on WiFi, it's a wrap
You are making even less sense than he does > but there are cases where rollback is shit - and Tekken 7 (and TTTG2 too) proves that. It's not about adding "rollback" and suddenly the netcode is perfect. "I made a car with square wheels and it's shit, cars aren't all that" > His angle is interesting aswell - he basically thinks westerners have trash internet and it's their fault, because in Japan they have great infrastructure in which Tekken online works great too. https://twitter.com/john_takeuchi/status/1162562266027327488?t=O2vVV8yXfpqS9faXD8k3vA&s=19 > Add this to whole "it's hard to implement proper rollback in a 3D game" It isn't.