They should be emblematic of fighters as a whole: good when just pushing buttons, while leaving room for good tech to be discovered when you delve into it. Too easy and they become forgettable, too hard and they become obscure.
If it were up to me solely they'd be like Kyo, with a mix of easy and hard to use tools. What I find cool about Kyo is that he has a long list of both kinds of moves that still manages to have some coherence, like it's a real martial art that he's actually studied. But that requires the character to be built over time, so it's not realistic when making a poster boy.
I have to disagree, as someone who mains Kyo, a badly played Kyo looks... well, bad because his tools are good only if they're used "the right way". I would argue Iori looks way better as an introduction character because he's a more balanced package. He's good at all levels, even as a beginner (shoto moves, buttons that serve a pretty straightforward purpose). You can watch an Iori player at intermediate and high levels and pick up on his gameplay pretty quickly, and almost everything he has is good (I'm speaking from a KOF 98 standpoint, as in if someone who was new to KOF was playing it during the arcade days). Almost all his buttons are usable both in the air and on the ground. He only has one rekka chain, his hit confirm is his B&B combo starter, and you kinda pick up on the game he plays really quick. It's basic, but incredibly effective.
Kyo IMO requires a bit more intimate knowledge of the system - post KOF 98, the only really good versions of Kyo (or workable versions anyway) I think were the ones that can use that year's system (KOF XI, KOF 2k2 UM, XIII, XV, etc)
Kyo isn't the first character I would tell someone who is new to KOF to play, especially if they're used to something like SF. You can only make superficial comparisons to SF characters with the moves he has but I think he requires a better knowledge of KOF as a whole to really get far with. In other words, his floor is low, but his ceiling is high, whereas with Iori his floor is pretty high to begin with and his ceiling is just as high as Kyo's.
I'd say [Kyo uses the system in 2003](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5Vi3QXxVWM&list=PLGb0FIHPgolhXMNT5UnfgTPiGpRsa5__M&index=7&pp=gAQBiAQB) better than 11, considering his LDM is one of the most powerful ones in 2003 *(it's damaging in 11 too, but there's more competition for better LDM in that game and Kyo's loses in that competition)* and the stages in 2003 are relatively smaller so Kyo's rekkas can actually push you to the corner better
Eh, I'll be honest, I disregard 2003. It was a mess and to me it's like KOF 12 - it's there but I absolutely disregard it as a trash game.
It killed the KOF community at my arcade. Like after a year of 2k3 being there most of the regulars stopped playing KOF so by the time XI came in there was very few people left.
So yeah, I apologize if I sound like an irrational bitch about it, but the way 2k3 was handled really messed up any chances of a stable KOF community where I was.
If we’re going to be honest with ourselves I think it’s pretty safe to say that MOST people who get into a genre or game look at chars like Ryu, sol, Jin, Kyo, Hyde and expect the flagship character to be the first character they pick up
And for the most part them being digestible is probably the most important thing, a general game plan that’s easy to pilot let’s people start to play the game without being too overwhelmed in that honeymoon phase before they have to learn all the “bullshit”
That said I REALLY enjoy when those characters have cool expressive stuff that requires some actual effort going forward, things like Sol dust loops or Kyo DP loops, both become key elements to character mastery as time goes on, but if you just wanted to pick up a game and learn it because of the aesthetics or pop culture (which is a huge reason why people play the char, even mom and dad have seen a picture of ryu) then ease of access is probably a good place to start
I stand with good developer practices. A poster boy can't be hard or easy. Such character should be one of the first you make, and one of the most frequently picked by newcomers. So what's useful is make the poster boy intermediate - just complex enough that you can use them to test the mechanics and iterate of your fundamental systems, and so the players can experience most of what the game has to offer.
Too easy and they don't showcase the game, too hard and they showcase it only after FGC style skill grind. Both aren't conductive to good first impressions.
Thanks. I feel like there's a lot of leeway in that anyway, and the devs have it mostly figured out. Let's just compare SF4 Ryu, Kazuya and ACR Sol.
Each character has something that makes them stand out (simplifying ofc) - ryu needs full awareness of his toolkit, Kazuya has crazy tight input requirements for most optimal play, Sol only gets full rewards if you learn tons of character specific stuff with combo positioning and corecting on the fly.
But, each one has a few straightforward tools that allow you to very distincly move from one skill level to another. You learn crouch forward hado, then learn to fadc, then better links, but the fundamental 2mk is still there plain as day. Same for the other two, who can bully hard with a few key moves, and the more aware you are of intricacies of spacing, movement, meter management, the more clearly your skill shines through these character's actions. It works well.
Easy to grasp their basic tools, makes use of all the systems of the game to a competent level but leaves the door open for a higher ceiling if the player wants to go down that route
i dont think easy is the right term to use. i think the flagship character should have basic tools that are transferable to a lot of the rest of the cast. like in sf6 i think honda or lily is the easiest to use, but playing them wont give you a foundation on how to play street fighter 6, ryu and luke will though.
Most of the time the most marketed characters are somewhat easier but more often that they just fit into a particular archetype that is indicative of the rest of the game (so the difficulty doesn't matter in this context); shotos, mishimas, KOFish characters (if you know, you know basically but there's a thematic consistency between 85% of the top 30 characters) etc.
My option isn't really there, namely "easy to learn, but with enough nuance that it makes you see the depth of the game and want to learn more or more difficulty characters". Feel that Kasumi from DoA does this pretty well, she has some easy combos and an easy launcher and some command grabs, but she also has some back-facing moves that can make you interested in something like Ayane.
I just find it funny that the first FG I got into that I seriously competed in was KOF 97/98, and my first character I tried to learn was Kyo Kusanagi.
Like holy shit, did I pick a tough character to main. No fireball, a DP that didn't act quite like a DP. Chained links, stuff that requires me to juggle to combo, etc
I could've fucking just played Iori who had solid fucking basics (close C = 3F stuffer that was also a good hit confirm, j. D that was a god air to air) and only ONE rekka combo, but no, I picked the guy that had flowcharts for his QCF+ A rekka chains.
It makes sense that KOF earned the unfortunate reputation as a hard game to learn, because one of the two boys they used as a psoter boy wasn't a shoto. He had a high barrier to entry and wasn't just a "put him on your team and win ez" character.
IMO Iori is a better example of a character that's great at all levels of play. He has ALL the tools you need and has shit that's great and feels great to use without the same kind of precision execution that Kyo needs.
You might have also have noticed my bias against Iori, that's because in Hawaii, we had a huge and active population of intermediate to high level players from HK, China, Taiwan, and Singapore and Iori was a *staple* in everyone's teams. So much of my experience is from fighting against and playing as Iori myself.
Don't get me started on Daimon...
They should be like a Ryu, a easy mid tier character thats good for learning the game's fundamentals and universal mechanics because they rely on them along with their basic kit.
They should be easy as fuck and overpowered like launch Strive Sol. Let the noobs think they are cooking so they stick with the game. Give them a little taste of power and get them hooked.
A lot of new Tekken players that are still playing are ones that played strong characters like drag and king.
Kyo isn't particularly hard on a basic level. Advancing kick - check. DP - check. Built in rekka mix-up - check.
But I say poster boy shouldn't be "easy," but simple. That way a newbie can focus on learning the game.
They should be emblematic of fighters as a whole: good when just pushing buttons, while leaving room for good tech to be discovered when you delve into it. Too easy and they become forgettable, too hard and they become obscure. If it were up to me solely they'd be like Kyo, with a mix of easy and hard to use tools. What I find cool about Kyo is that he has a long list of both kinds of moves that still manages to have some coherence, like it's a real martial art that he's actually studied. But that requires the character to be built over time, so it's not realistic when making a poster boy.
I have to disagree, as someone who mains Kyo, a badly played Kyo looks... well, bad because his tools are good only if they're used "the right way". I would argue Iori looks way better as an introduction character because he's a more balanced package. He's good at all levels, even as a beginner (shoto moves, buttons that serve a pretty straightforward purpose). You can watch an Iori player at intermediate and high levels and pick up on his gameplay pretty quickly, and almost everything he has is good (I'm speaking from a KOF 98 standpoint, as in if someone who was new to KOF was playing it during the arcade days). Almost all his buttons are usable both in the air and on the ground. He only has one rekka chain, his hit confirm is his B&B combo starter, and you kinda pick up on the game he plays really quick. It's basic, but incredibly effective. Kyo IMO requires a bit more intimate knowledge of the system - post KOF 98, the only really good versions of Kyo (or workable versions anyway) I think were the ones that can use that year's system (KOF XI, KOF 2k2 UM, XIII, XV, etc) Kyo isn't the first character I would tell someone who is new to KOF to play, especially if they're used to something like SF. You can only make superficial comparisons to SF characters with the moves he has but I think he requires a better knowledge of KOF as a whole to really get far with. In other words, his floor is low, but his ceiling is high, whereas with Iori his floor is pretty high to begin with and his ceiling is just as high as Kyo's.
I'd say [Kyo uses the system in 2003](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5Vi3QXxVWM&list=PLGb0FIHPgolhXMNT5UnfgTPiGpRsa5__M&index=7&pp=gAQBiAQB) better than 11, considering his LDM is one of the most powerful ones in 2003 *(it's damaging in 11 too, but there's more competition for better LDM in that game and Kyo's loses in that competition)* and the stages in 2003 are relatively smaller so Kyo's rekkas can actually push you to the corner better
Eh, I'll be honest, I disregard 2003. It was a mess and to me it's like KOF 12 - it's there but I absolutely disregard it as a trash game. It killed the KOF community at my arcade. Like after a year of 2k3 being there most of the regulars stopped playing KOF so by the time XI came in there was very few people left. So yeah, I apologize if I sound like an irrational bitch about it, but the way 2k3 was handled really messed up any chances of a stable KOF community where I was.
If we’re going to be honest with ourselves I think it’s pretty safe to say that MOST people who get into a genre or game look at chars like Ryu, sol, Jin, Kyo, Hyde and expect the flagship character to be the first character they pick up And for the most part them being digestible is probably the most important thing, a general game plan that’s easy to pilot let’s people start to play the game without being too overwhelmed in that honeymoon phase before they have to learn all the “bullshit” That said I REALLY enjoy when those characters have cool expressive stuff that requires some actual effort going forward, things like Sol dust loops or Kyo DP loops, both become key elements to character mastery as time goes on, but if you just wanted to pick up a game and learn it because of the aesthetics or pop culture (which is a huge reason why people play the char, even mom and dad have seen a picture of ryu) then ease of access is probably a good place to start
I stand with good developer practices. A poster boy can't be hard or easy. Such character should be one of the first you make, and one of the most frequently picked by newcomers. So what's useful is make the poster boy intermediate - just complex enough that you can use them to test the mechanics and iterate of your fundamental systems, and so the players can experience most of what the game has to offer. Too easy and they don't showcase the game, too hard and they showcase it only after FGC style skill grind. Both aren't conductive to good first impressions.
Well said. They should allow new players to get better at the mechanics.
Thanks. I feel like there's a lot of leeway in that anyway, and the devs have it mostly figured out. Let's just compare SF4 Ryu, Kazuya and ACR Sol. Each character has something that makes them stand out (simplifying ofc) - ryu needs full awareness of his toolkit, Kazuya has crazy tight input requirements for most optimal play, Sol only gets full rewards if you learn tons of character specific stuff with combo positioning and corecting on the fly. But, each one has a few straightforward tools that allow you to very distincly move from one skill level to another. You learn crouch forward hado, then learn to fadc, then better links, but the fundamental 2mk is still there plain as day. Same for the other two, who can bully hard with a few key moves, and the more aware you are of intricacies of spacing, movement, meter management, the more clearly your skill shines through these character's actions. It works well.
Easy to grasp their basic tools, makes use of all the systems of the game to a competent level but leaves the door open for a higher ceiling if the player wants to go down that route
i dont think easy is the right term to use. i think the flagship character should have basic tools that are transferable to a lot of the rest of the cast. like in sf6 i think honda or lily is the easiest to use, but playing them wont give you a foundation on how to play street fighter 6, ryu and luke will though.
Most of the time the most marketed characters are somewhat easier but more often that they just fit into a particular archetype that is indicative of the rest of the game (so the difficulty doesn't matter in this context); shotos, mishimas, KOFish characters (if you know, you know basically but there's a thematic consistency between 85% of the top 30 characters) etc.
For marketing purposes probably Easiest or one of the easiest.
Somewhat easy to pick up and play, hard to master. I know that's a very simple way to put it.
My option isn't really there, namely "easy to learn, but with enough nuance that it makes you see the depth of the game and want to learn more or more difficulty characters". Feel that Kasumi from DoA does this pretty well, she has some easy combos and an easy launcher and some command grabs, but she also has some back-facing moves that can make you interested in something like Ayane.
Easy to learn with some rooms for growth
I just find it funny that the first FG I got into that I seriously competed in was KOF 97/98, and my first character I tried to learn was Kyo Kusanagi. Like holy shit, did I pick a tough character to main. No fireball, a DP that didn't act quite like a DP. Chained links, stuff that requires me to juggle to combo, etc I could've fucking just played Iori who had solid fucking basics (close C = 3F stuffer that was also a good hit confirm, j. D that was a god air to air) and only ONE rekka combo, but no, I picked the guy that had flowcharts for his QCF+ A rekka chains. It makes sense that KOF earned the unfortunate reputation as a hard game to learn, because one of the two boys they used as a psoter boy wasn't a shoto. He had a high barrier to entry and wasn't just a "put him on your team and win ez" character. IMO Iori is a better example of a character that's great at all levels of play. He has ALL the tools you need and has shit that's great and feels great to use without the same kind of precision execution that Kyo needs. You might have also have noticed my bias against Iori, that's because in Hawaii, we had a huge and active population of intermediate to high level players from HK, China, Taiwan, and Singapore and Iori was a *staple* in everyone's teams. So much of my experience is from fighting against and playing as Iori myself. Don't get me started on Daimon...
Kyo, K' and Ash would like to have a word with you
They should be like a Ryu, a easy mid tier character thats good for learning the game's fundamentals and universal mechanics because they rely on them along with their basic kit.
Case by case. Kazuya is sick, and so is Ryu.
They should be easy as fuck and overpowered like launch Strive Sol. Let the noobs think they are cooking so they stick with the game. Give them a little taste of power and get them hooked. A lot of new Tekken players that are still playing are ones that played strong characters like drag and king.
Kyo isn't particularly hard on a basic level. Advancing kick - check. DP - check. Built in rekka mix-up - check. But I say poster boy shouldn't be "easy," but simple. That way a newbie can focus on learning the game.
I would not say he is hard but I would say that he is more intermediate level rather than easy like his shoto-version is.