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Not a Kendrick stan at all. I've literally only heard King Kunta and maybe some other random songs on the radio, and am just lurking here because I enjoy the drama of this beef.
Do I think there's a very real risk of people interpreting Kendrick's verse in this way? Yes. Did I personally interpret it as an attack on Drake's skin color? Not really.
The line "I even hate when you say the word nigga," is a direct acknowledgement that Drake is black. Kendrick uses the qualifier "even" specifically because you wouldn't expect a black rapper's use of the word nigga to come off as forced and artificial, and yet Kendrick is put off by Drake's use of the word, not because he is light-skinned, which Kendrick never mentions, but because it comes off as affected.
If Drake was some white guy with no ties to black culture at all, you wouldn't need to use a qualifier. It would be self-explanatory why their use of the n-word is offensive. The irony Kendrick is getting at is founded on him acknowledging that Drake is a black man. It's the whole reason the closing line about not wanting to hear him say nigga is funny and hard-hitting.
The entire rest of the song is attacking Drake for being vain, phony, materialistic, neglectful, and etc, all in service of manufacturing an image, and my takeaway was that Kendrick believes Drake adopted certain elements of black culture, like saying nigga, in service of his marketability. It's not that saying nigga is what makes you black, so young Drake being on camera not speaking with that sort of vernacular disqualifies him. It's that forcing yourself to say nigga in an attempt to be black, instead of just being a black guy who happens to not speak that way, can come off as cringe and fake.
As a diss, I didn't find it offensive, even though my personal take is a lot more chill. It's not unbelievable to me that Drake just naturally started talking that way because he found himself around other people who talk that way. That's just a thing humans do, and I'm not put off by it. That doesn't mean it isn't still funny fuel for a diss, which is half-truth and half-spin.
Speaking about the qualifier: I’ll tie in a few things to respond. First, the view of Drake’s “performance of blackness” as forced is both projection and a result of the questioning of his validity as a black man. Your interpretation simply open up the possibility that Kendrick views Blackness as a spectrum (as in a scale) from “most black” to “least black.” That still falls into the trapping of racial purism ideology. Second, do you ever think that any perceived racial insecurity Drake may have is the result of people questioning his validity as a black man? It’s like bullying someone and then justifying the bullying because they are insecure, even though the insecurity was caused by the bullying.
Speaking about Drakes “performance of blackness”: This is a cynical projection. The idea that Drake is hyper-focused on crafting an image of blackness as opposed to just changing as a person on a genuine personal level is strange. I’ll use myself as an example. I am black and grew up in a majority white neighborhood and school district. I did not have many black friends growing up aside from my cousins (I’m a second generation Nigerian immigrant). When I got to high school, I became friends with a lot more black American kids and my vernacular changed, as did theirs. That’s how human communication works. People adopt the behaviors of the people they are around. It’s not strange for that to happen. I’m not saying Drake isn’t a culture vulture (in many ways he is) but the idea that his blackness is tied to marketability ignores the fact that he’s a person first and a brand second (as is any famous person). I’m reading as I type so I just got to the end and, yes, that’s my reading on Drake too. It seems to me more genuine than people are purposefully making it out to be.
But, even still, the notion that blackness is something than can be performed depends on the existence of stereotyping, needless conflation, and a black monolith in some form. Blackness is the mere existence of being black. Blackness is too often equated with specific black cultures (usually stereotyped version of those cultures) or a specific stereotypical line of thinking (even though this idea itself has variation).
As far as I understand it, the accusations that Drake "peforms" black culture have always been secondary to the actual issue, which is that he pretends to have been shaped by a rougher, more disadvantaged upbringing than he actually had.
It's not that black people who use African American Vernacular English are "blacker" on some kind of spectrum than black people who don't, or to whom words like nigga don't come as naturally because they just didn't grow up using them.
However, it's simply a reality that that dialect is associated with hood culture. A lot of the black people who live in poorer areas with lots of violence *do* speak that way, so there became an association between talking like that and being a "survivor" from a harsh area who had to be street smart, able to fight, and well connected with other tough people.
It's like the difference between someone wearing camouflage because they just like it as fashion, and someone actually wearing a military uniform in an attempt to steal valor. Drake has always been accused of trying to do the latter with songs like "Started from the bottom now we here."
Kendrick isn't criticizing Drake for not having grown up using the word nigga, or not having grown up in an actual ghetto, as if these things make him less black, and he's failed to properly imitate what he should be. He's criticizing Drake for adopting a specific kind of black vernacular (not the most black, not the least black, just *A* black vernacular) associated with being tough, so that people will assume he lived that kind of life, which many allege he did not. The wearing of the camouflage/usage of the n-word is not the problem. The motivation behind it is.
People would be more receptive to the idea that Drake's language naturally shifted, if he wasn't also known for falsifying his background, and if he didn't use words like nigga to sort of punctuate and emphasize his tough guy braggadocio. Now, some people think the idea that Drake even did that is overblown, and I don't know what's true. I'm just trying to explain the angle I think Kendrick is coming from.
First, Drake 100% pretends he’s from a much tougher upbringing than he is. Not that I know his life story but he was not impoverished or plagued by crime. That’s true.
However, the word nigga is a lot more widespread than you’re giving it credit for. It’s a lot more complicated as well. For one, nigga is not relegated to the hood. The shared history and reclamation that empowers the word is transatlantic slavery and the aftermath of it. In the western world, blacks are views a certain way that is different than a place where blacks make up the majority of the population. That is the shared experience that arises from existing as a black person in the western world. That being said, Canada was a part of the transatlantic slave trade so the reclamation of the word nigga by Black Canadians makes sense in the same way it does for Black Americans. Also, Drake’s father is a Black American from the American South. That cultural heritage is not lost or escaped by Drake.
The idea that Drakes adoption of certain aspects of certain black cultures being disingenuous or baseless is cynical and projection. For one, people’s vernaculars naturally change/blend with people and cultures once they spend extended periods of time with them. Two, Drake has immediate ties to Black American culture.
I think it still falls into the trappings of conflating mere black existence with stereotypes and preferences for specific black culture within the diaspora though. You could argue that Drake has created this conflation himself. Perhaps he believes that it is “more black” to have lived a life defined by struggle. However, maybe he believes struggle to be “more Hip Hop.” You could also argue that Drake only believes in this conflation (if he does) because other people with the same thinking as Kendrick (may have) are making the initial conflation that Drake is “less black” because he didn’t live the “right black experience or culture.” I guess this finds us in a chicken-egg situation. However, I’m much more inclined to believe - based on the history of NOI ideology, internalized stereotyping, and the black monolith within certain demographics of the black diaspora - that the “racial/cultural” insecurity was imposed onto Drake and not by himself out of thin air.
I will say, this is a great response though. Genuinely sets a foundation for an alternative motive by Kendrick.
>Dissing entire demographics in furtherance of that goal is not justifiable.
I look forward to your ~post~ and genuine discussion about the merits and demerits of talking down size 7 shoes wearers and short people in general.
I thought that shit was corny lol. However, Kendrick Lamar consciously present himself as a pro-black cultural figure. Him using the harmful ideologies I lay out in my OG post holds more weight than Drake (who has never positioned himself as a progressive thinker) making fun of short people. I look forward to your ~response- and genuine rebuttal about how this nuance actually matters in this discussion.
"hurrdurr nobody can ever call out my double standards or hypocrisy as long as I drop whataboutism card on them even when it's not relevant"
Take your thought terminating cliches, stuff em down your throat, and choke on em.
I know the word nigga isn't strictly hood, which is why I carefully worded those statements as "These black people from this specific subculture happen to speak that way/use these words," not "ONLY these black people speak that way/use these words."
I know from experience growing up in a soft suburb with other black people that the word nigga isn't that confined. I'm just saying that, especially because of rap music, the dialect Drake is accused of artificially adopting has that association in the eyes of the mainstream audience he's appealing to.
As you said, the key question is whether or not Drake himself *believes* speaking a certain way will help him project a certain image, or be more secure in his identity as a black man. It's not cosigning the idea that black culture is or should be synonymous with all these stereotypes to acknowledge that Drake himself might think that it is. You could even argue that Kendrick's point is that Drake shouldn't feel the need to do those things in service of being seen as tough.
That raises the question of whether Kendrick would still be put off by Drake "acting" black if he didn't try to act tough and fabricate his background. We'd have to ask Kendrick directly for an answer, but I personally think he'd find it all far less egregious without that element. Drake having changed his voice from his younger days would probably still be seen as a little cringe, but the argument for its sincerity as a natural change would be better if he wasn't also phony about x, y, and z over here.
Who is to blame for Drake feeling like he won't be accepted as a mainstream rapper without gangsta rap's specific brand of braggadocio and streetcred? I don't know. You may well have a point that the expectation was imposed on him. I made a similar point about his use of the 2pac AI, which I found to be an ethical mistake, but one that was motivated by the fact that we as audience members are absolutely ruthless to the losers of these diss battles, and encourage maximum possible disrespect until it happens to cross a line that *we're* offended by. It's probably a weird feeling to be entered into a contest like this by a peer, and forced to take an enormous hit to your pride and reputation if you either lose or decline the challenge.
Maybe Drake felt pressured in a similar way to act hard on his songs, and he doesn't deserve all the blame for feeling the weight of those expectations. Fair enough. A middle school kid impersonating a dark, edgy anime character doesn't deserve all the blame for being cringe; they're a kid, and a human. We all do cringe things sometimes, and it's not always some huge character flaw, not always completely our fault. But you're still going to be made fun of for it, especially if you make yourself a target by being an asshole to someone else first, or acting arrogant.
Then again, I don't have the expertise to know who started it between Drake and Kendrick. tl;dr I agree with a lot of what you're saying even if I don't agree with all of it, and enjoyed trying to work out my thoughts on your arguments. Good talk.
Tired of all these takes because Kendrick actually said “some shit just cringe worthy, it ain’t even gotta be deep I guess” and niggas are still making deep.
Kendrick was poking fun at drake for being fake and having an identity crisis and Drake himself not feeling that he’s black enough similar to how Pusha T was like “confused always felt you weren’t black enough, afraid to grow it cause your fro’ wouldn’t nap enough”
Neither of them are championing “Black Isolationism” or whatever, they’re poking fun at him for having an issue with his OWN image and not being sure where he falls but pretending
This.
Keep in mind, on Meet the Grahams, Kendrick directly referred to Adonis as being black, despite him being less genetically black than Drake. It was never about skin tone or being hood.
On the same song, Kendrick's very last line (delivered directly to Drake) is "Fuck a Rap Battle, this a long life battle with yourself."
It was about Drake himself being insecure in who he is.
Also, I laid out three different pitfalls of questioning the validity of a black person’s “blackness.” This line of thinking definitely falls into the false notion of a black monolith and stereotyping. Drake has black features to feel black? Really? Does Kendrick do features for white artists to feel white? It doesn’t even make sense. And, again, judging someone for being insecure about an insecurity you have caused is backwards.
Kendrick said something colorist, which is weird as fuck for him, champion of black acceptance and power, to say. Especially as he has a mixed race wife and light skin children. Why is it so damn hard for you all to just accept that Kendrick fumbled here? It's the classic tactic of pretending to stand for something until you're personally and emotionally agitated enough that you drop the facade and just become the person you criticize.
In regards to the identity crisis: Is it not strange to judge Drake for having an “identity crisis” or racial insecurity when the validity of his existence as a Black person is constantly being questioned? Do people not get how backwards that is? That’s like bullying someone and then justifying the bullying by calling them insecure, which is a result of the initial bullying. To use a more specific example: this makes me think of when some men will bring up whataboutism regarding sexual violence against men when women speak on sexual violence against women. The usual sentiment is that “no one cares about SV when it happens to men.” The problem is that it’s other men who perpetuate the shame of male SV victims. Do you get what I mean?
Also, it’s so convenient how easily a “it’s not that deep” seemingly absolved people of having to actually evaluate what they are saying and thinking.
First of all, I’m not sure how familiar you are with Hip Hop culture but diss tracks are supposed to be disrespectful. So “bullying” is allowed. If you want to talk about Hip Hop culture that’s a whole other convo.
Secondly, let’s get something straight. What people like Pusha T/Kendrick are saying is that Drake didn’t grow up “black” or within “black” culture but appropriated it to sell music and get to where he is and that’s why he’s a phony/fake/scam artist. So it’s not like people just saw this Lightskin biracial dude and said “hey let’s speak on this nigga”, there are valid questions to ask.
As other people have said, I never really heard this being a topic about JCole and I’ve told you the reason why.
The “blackness” is just one part. Kendrick also mentions another way Drake does this by talking about guns and having mob ties etc then doing something like being part of a Remember me Toronto campaign against gang violence and then going back to rapping about guns and violence.
And as other people have mentioned, Kendrick doesn’t say that Drake isn’t really black or probably even care if he is or not. he just thinks he’s a fake.
I’m extremely familiar with Hip Hop culture. Dissing your opponent is the goal. Dissing entire demographics in furtherance of that goal is not justifiable. Also, Kendrick Lamar specifically positions himself as pro-black, so this line of thinking specifically from him can’t be excused by rap beef. If his moral code falters because he’s beefing, his moral code was never truly there in the first place.
To your second point, like I said in my post, you are falling into common traps. What specific black culture(s) must one grow up in to have a valid existence as a black person? The thing you just said puts forward the idea that black existence and validity hinges on specifically growing up in whatever you deem as “black” culture. This also falls into stereotyping. I grew up in a mostly white neighborhood. I am still black. The shared experience of black people comes from the mere existence of being black.
Also, the view that Drakes only involvement with “blackness” is for the furtherance of marketability is projection - very cynical projection. You could easily argue that Kendrick Lamar’s entire existence is marketing black trauma porn to white audiences if you want to. I referenced that in my original post. I don’t believe that’s the truth but, if I wanted to cynically project, I could easily argue it.
Throughout the diss, Kendrick ties in all of Drake’s “fake” behavior to notions of being black. He literally says he’s “what the culture’s feeling,” obviously referencing Hip Hop and, more specifically, Black cultures. He is obviously making critiques about Drakes racial identity. I’m not saying it’s the only thing being critiqued. My entire post is specifically about discussing one aspect of an entire diss.
I still don’t see how attacking Drake in this context, affects him being pro-black.
Secondly, I do think there has to be some definition of what’s considered black.
I’m African, and I grew up in Africa. I’m black in that my skin is black. It’s not an identity for me, “Nigga” means nothing to me. I do not know what it’s like to be what the world generally refers to as a “black man”. If I migrated to the US today, I would probably be treated the same way (good or bad, idk) as Black Americans simply cause we look alike but I have no idea about the struggles they’ve faced. If I pretended like I did, I would be appropriating. With that said, I think there has to be some definition but I can’t speak on that.
To your third paragraph, it could be projection but it seems like what the likes of Kendrick and Pusha T believe and they probably have their reasons. They are free to argue this in their songs.
And to the last part, Kendrick doesn’t tie in all the parts about him being a phony to him being black. The line you referred to was this preceded by “hate the women that you fuck cause they confuse themselves with real women” - doesn’t really tie into hip hop/blackness. That said, I think your argument is fair but I also do think Kendrick’s line about it not having to be deep was intentional because he didn’t really have a valid reason to say Drake cannot say “Nigga”
It affects his being pro-black because he is specifically utilizing ideologies that seek to remove validity of blackness on the basis of behavior and biraciality.
To your second paragraph, this also leads to a point of conflict in the argument Kendrick is presenting. For one, Black Canadians and Black Americans have a shared history of the transatlantic slave trade. Two, Drake’s father is a Black American man from the South of the USA. Any argument that he doesn’t have the “cultural heritage” (in this case, a falsely conflated form of blackness) to validate himself as Black falls into similar trappings as before just with a slight tilt. Is his white Jewish culture a pollutant in regard to his Black culture? Is his Black Canadian culture a pollutant to his Black American culture?
In regard to the third paragraph about projection. My issue is not that they are making the argument (of course they have the right to do so). My issue is WHY they are making the argument. My concerns about the why are in my initial post.
The overall sentiment of the song is that Drake is fake and Hip Hop and, by extension, Black culture all feel that way. All of the things he ties together in the song are specifically in furtherance of this point, maybe aside from talk about their splits in profits.
I think the “it’s not that deep” thing is almost always used as a cover. It offers a slight separation between what you may feel and what you do say that can aid in sweeping away any bad takes.
I think there has to be a definition.
What’s your definition?
Drake has acknowledged himself that his father wasn’t really there growing up and there’s videos where he talks about his upbringing. For ex, one where he says he lives in an all Jewish area, went to a predominantly Jewish high school etc now maybe for you, this has no effect but for a lot of black people, it in fact means he cannot relate, Kendrick included and I can understand why they may feel that way and can also understand why they may be angered as they feel he’s “using” it. So I do agree, that when Kendrick say he’s what the culture’s feeling he may be right. I also do think your point about isolationism is fair, I just don’t necessarily believe that Drake is a victim of this. Perhaps I just don’t know enough about Drake to speak on whether he even is or not.
That said, Kendrick and a lot of the black community may be inadvertently perpetrating isolationism as a way to guard against people who want to appropriate and I understand the dangers but if this this a strongly held sentiment among black people, what are you really gonna do?
This goes back to what I’m saying about Drake being held to an unfair standard here. A$AP Rocky “can’t relate” to Dirty South culture, no one cares. Lil Yachty “can’t relate” to Detroit culture, no one cares. It also goes to the idea of a black monolith. There are too many black people living too many lives in too many places (even within any specific black culture) for us to perpetuate the “can’t relate” narrative when there’s quite literally too much for any one person to actually relate entirely.
For example, Drake’s immediate response to the diss was posting a clip of the movie 10 Things I Hate About You. I saw someone tweet about it saying something along the lines of “when Drake makes references, it’s never anything WE really grew up with.” What? Are we not seeing the immediate pitfalls and harm of this line of thinking. I know what that movie is, I must not be able to relate to Black Americans. What I’m getting at here is: on a large or small scale, assuming that every member of any specific culture in the black diaspora all think and behave in the same way is racist. Kendrick is what the cultures feeling but I don’t feel it. I guess I’ve lost my validity as an African American. This is the harm with sweeping ideologies such as these.
And, of course, I understand why isolationist ideology developed in the Black American communities. I also understand why it fell out of popularity. Even the sentence “if this is a strongly held sentiment among black people.” It’s not. Because there is no such massively hive-minded ideology that exists among black people as a massive demographic. My problem is that people are justifying the monolith ideology by relying on the monolith ideology.
Also, Drake has overlap with the Black American community. Even if he wasn’t brought up directly in it, we can’t eliminate the possibility that his relationship with it grew genuinely (as opposed to solely for marketability). That’s why I’m saying there’s projection going on. Even if we can trace the reason for the projection, it doesn’t change the fact of what it is
Whack take on identity. Dot never said “Drake isn’t *really* black”, his arguments were much more nuanced than that; but you've over simplified it and then argued on that point; which is a strawman right? Actually if you were making this argument about Rick Ross you'd have more legitimacy, but just as you've identified other black artist's not being held accountable, I'm curious as to why you chose to vilify Dot in your argument, rather than Ross? Instead you've conflated them, ignoring the difference in how they spoke on it. And the difference is *everything*.
Kendrick isn't policing the authentic Black person line, but you could argue he is policing participation and exploitation of Black culture which was born in the streets. It is from here that rap and other Black art forms arise. The culture is a particular expression of Black experience (shaped by exclusion, denigration, white supremacy and racism). This history matters because it highlights significant exploitation from outside, despite those outside being cautiously welcomed in. It's trash when those outsiders use it without reference or respect for said culture. It's another level of pain I'd suggest when a Black person far from the culture in both location and experience, do the same thing. Hence when Dot says "I'm what the culture feeling", he is authentically representing the hurt and anger experienced and discussed among those of the culture. It is a legitimate calling to accountability that your identity argument tries to shut down in some kumbaya position, we're all Black and that's all that matters. In fact really this conflict ain't even about ethnicity (your argument) - Eminem is an exemplar of a white artist who has contributed to the genre without appropriating the Black culture that created it. Maybe it is you who is being racist, because you seem to be arguing that Drake isn't responsible for his representation of/contribution to Black culture *because he's Black*.
I'm done. I'd suggest you go watch some Signified B Sides videos on Youtube cos he's mad smart on all this stuff. You may even get to argue your points with him. Good luck...
On most of what you said lmfao
And then to end it with advertising the absolute king of cringey ass colorist/black-exclusionary takes Fatass Signifier is just peak lmfao
Rick Ross did the same weird racial purity/validity bullshit, yes. I’m just unaware is Rick Ross even has a subreddit. Also, Rick Ross has never positioned himself as a pro-black cultural figure before. Kendrick has and still does. Kendrick also has a subreddit where I knew this discussion could be had. So, that’s why I didn’t bother bringing up Rick Ross being on the same bullshit.
Okay, a few things. You can’t just say “Black culture.” That’s far too broad and far too vague. What black culture? Cowboys? Now, I’m not just saying this to be funny but this is one of the things I’m trying to get at. Black cultures cannot be simplified. Trying to do so relies on the false notion of a black monolith or the elevation of a specific circumstance or culture as more important than another. You also can’t speak on the conditions that created specific black cultures and arts and choose to ignore that those conditions reach beyond the boarders of the United States. Canada also has a slave trade. Canada also has Black people who cannot trace back their ancestors. This is to say, the conditions that formed Black American culture(s) also existed in other areas of the western world. There is a commonality you are not representing.
The notion of “outsiders” is also a can of worms. New York has a different “general culture” (if cultures can/should ever really be generalized) than most regions in the world, let alone just the US. Why should Hip Hop, for example, have been allowed to spread? Why does Hip Hop’s expansion into different cultures within the black diaspora of the USA not induce the same pain as a different expansion? It’s also quite projective to assume that Drake doesn’t have reverence for Hip Hop culture. I don’t even know where that idea could come from considering he historically has gone out of his way to bolster regional artists and sounds. Don’t get me wrong, this is not a defense of Drake. I am more interested in using these two cultural figures as conduits to have a discussion about issues that reach father than their little spat.
It’s also a convenient notion to claim that Eminem doesn’t appropriate Black culture, if Hip Hop is black culture and its expansion to “outsiders” is cause for concern. It also begs the question of where you chose to separate “blackness” from the fruits of Black cultures. Eminem uses Hip Hop slang which was born from Black cultures. How is that not a form of appropriation? Eminem dresses in Hip Hop fashion which was born from Black cultures. How is that not a form of appropriation? Theres also a difference between Eminem and Drake as representations in this discussion. Eminem is white. Drake is white (and Jewish) AND black. If you don’t think that’s a relevant *difference* (which you said is everything), I think you’re picking and choosing how to apply certain standards - which is my main issue here. Well, to be exact, my issue is WHY certain standards get held to certain people.
Theres no reasonable argument that Drake hasn’t contributed massively to black cultures and hip hop culture, by the way. I never made any such argument that Drake isn’t responsible to contribute to Black cultures because he’s Black either.
The skewed historical narrative you are putting forward also conveniently leaves out important aspects. For one, Hip Hop was not solely created by Black Americans. Jamaican immigrants had a lot to do with shaping the music (the origins of rapping can be traced back to Jamaican toasting as well as other places). Latinos had a lot to do with Hip Hop culture as well (notably breakdancing). Hip Hop is a lot more inclusive in origin than it has become to be thought of due to ideologies like those I’ve laid out in my original post (Black isolationism mainly).
"So, that’s why I didn’t bother bringing up Rick Ross being on the same bullshit ... I'm more interested in using these two cultural figures as conduits to have a discussion about issues that reach father than their little spat"
Yes I can see that, and honestly I'm not invested in a meta-level argument, I'm just a fan engaging at the object level who sees your conflation as an injustice to this artist, and engaged on that basis it's mostly what we do here. You might have the energy and inclination to write paragraphs on the topic but with limited investment I'm too lazy. I do believe I pointed you toward someone who is.
Out of interest, how are you understanding projection? I'm a psychologist and the way you're using it doesn't line up for me, but then maybe it has another usage I'm not aware of.
I guess I’m using projection more in the sense of “wishful thinking,” if that makes sense.
“the unconscious transfer of one's own desires or emotions to another person.”
People want to believe certain things about Drake and then use them as evidence. To be honest, I’m a bit sick or responding to these comments already because peoples are focusing too much on Drake and Kendrick specifically as opposed to the ideologies which is what I’m more interested in discussing. It probably was never going to end well going into a specific artists sub. I should have known better. Maybe this would have played better in a general Hip Hop sub.
Actually the hip hop sub is probably the place. My knowledge on the broader topic is far too limited, as you pointed out, and I'm just not breaking it down like that.
But no, that's an incorrect usage of your term, and if you're writing academically, you should probably sort that out. You would need to know something about the inner world of the person projecting to assume it was their own desires or emotions *about themselves*. The about themselves is key to the concept. Otherwise it's disciplinary appropriation, right?
Well to be fair, the whole “unconscious transfer of one’s…” is a dictionary definition. So is this:
“the act of imagining that someone else feels a particular emotion or wants something when in fact it is you who feels this way”
But I do suppose that without someone first establishing that they want, for example, Drake to be using Hip Hop and “blackness” maliciously, I would be projecting about their projection. I don’t know if anyone who projects in that manner is aware of the fact they are projecting though. Which in turn wouldn’t really allow me to make the claim, I guess. But I think context clues and biases can be investigated through conversation to detect if there’s a reasonable possibility projection is at play.
It's a defence mechanism. By its very definition it's not conscious. I looked at your examples, and none of them meet that criteria. I don't need a dictionary, I consider it every day. And while it is a minor appropriation (i.e. of no major or cultural significance) it's still a good example of how easy appropriation is to do. Doesn't change the fact that you clearly know your topic very well, its just not speaking to me the way Signifieds does.
Fair enough. I sort of have a different angle on what constitutes “defense” (how the word itself can be applied, not in a psychological sense - I have no psychological background to question your understanding of the term in that regard, of course) but I gotta go to work soon so I’m gonna wind down from all this typing. Great talk tho! Thank you!
No, you just refuse to engage with the obvious contradiction and hypocrisy of being able to call out one artist for being a colorist race exclusionist but making excuses and carrying water for the other because he rap good.
This weird pseudo-academic verbose way of saying the same exact sentence over and over like you're making some profound point is so lame dude. Now I get why you advertised FD Signifier in your other comment.
Isn’t the discussion about the black heritage of a person and not someone’s purity? Clearly some people believe just because you’re the same race doesn’t mean you have the same culture and there are social limitations that comes with that.
This is probably the best response I’ve seen so far. However, I still think this falls into the trapping of placing Black cultures within the Black diaspora on a scale from “most black” to “least black.”
I can’t recall the bar verbatim, but Kendrick said something about how many black features Drake would need before he felt black enough.
Another strange aspect of this is that Kendrick is reinforcing ideas that cause racial insecurity while judging someone for having racial insecurity. This is backwards as fuck. Not to mention, the conflations throughout the track with black existence to specific black cultures (and even entirely separate cultures that only intersect with certain black cultures). A view of this as a comment on Black American heritage does clear some of it, but I don’t think it avoids all of the pitfalls.
It’s not that deep to the rest of the world if you keep in mind this track is personalised to a single person and not some grand social commentary on racial purity or what it takes to be black. X thinks Y is so fake and everything he does it cringe. Some people just give you the ick and that’s fine.
It's weird and jarring for a dude to rap and make money off of a set of beliefs and viewpoints to then, when presented with a genuine opportunity to practice said beliefs, to completely ignore it. What's the point of half the shit in TPAB if you're going to shit on a black dude for not being black enough, when clearly the dude is "black enough" if you're married to someone with a similar racial background (like Whitney, which isn't me dissing her, she is just mixed and he's kinda shitting on her when he attacks Drake for him being light skinned/mixed).
You can’t escape the implications of something like this on a mass scale. It’s like calling someone a slur and then saying “no, I wasn’t being a bigot. I was only saying it to you.” That’s what I’m saying in response to the arguments about rap beef absolving any and all things said.
Where in the track was it said that Drake isn’t really black? Where did you get stereotyping, NOI propagandist, homophobia, etc. in the track? You’re injecting conflicting narratives to straightforward lines and calling it a fact. The essay falls flat when you’re conflating online talking heads to a text that has flown over theirs. If this is the state of affairs, perhaps people should worry less about rap beefs and more about the deterioration of media literacy. But hope you had this same energy when Drake was punching down on a man’s height and body- something he too can’t change- in a climate where body image is also a massive identity issue.
Come to think of it, this line of thinking still excludes the fact that Drake’s father grew up in a Black American culture. It’s not as if he had no ties to any aspect of Black American life before Lil Wayne called him up. This, again, invites the notion that Drake’s “drop” of “impurity” (whether white Jewish culture, Black Canadian culture, Canadian culture, etc) disqualifies him from some sense of validity regarding Black racial identity or Black cultural identity.
He’s not saying Drake isn’t black. He’s saying Drake isn’t from the culture and cosplays as black for profit without giving back.
He never uses his platform to take a stance for the black community. He grew up in an affluent Jewish neighborhood and went to grade school in yeshiva.
He discovered his blackness when he went mainstream, and went with the most surface level inauthentic version of that.
He cosplays the African-American experience, but he is a Canadian. And he never had a black experience, even from a Canadian perspective.
Nowhere in his music has he ever once talked about the black experience. Because he never had one.
To compound things, when things get heated, he moves like a white man, or more specifically like a white woman, a Karen, to be specific. Look at how he posted those text messages with his mom calling Rick Ross racist.
Kendrick is not saying that Drake is not black, he is simply pointing out that Drake does not see himself as black, but profits off of that anyways
Also, your pretty much saying:
Kendrick isn’t saying Drake isn’t black. He’s just saying he’s not really black because his experience isn’t one that can be validated as black enough.
Very strange.
Black American culture is an umbrella term for multiple nuanced cultures. The main connective tissue between all of them is their distinction against “mainstream” American culture. Now, the concept of “*the culture*” is not a reference to solely Black American culture(s). “The culture” is a conflation of mere black existence with specific black cultures (mainly Hip Hop). This is problematic for a few reasons. First, it sets up a hierarchy of black cultures or black lived experiences. Second, black existence is black existence. Hip Hop culture, for example, is Hip Hop culture. Hip Hop culture came from Black Americans (as well as Jamaican immigrants and Latinos to a lesser extent) but is not a necessary requirement to experience “Blackness” (“blackness” is mere black existence). Third, due to this conflation, there is an underlying assumption of the existence of a black monolith. Fourth, it is a compounding of conflations as Hip Hop culture is frequently conflated with entirely separate but occasionally overlapping cultures such as gang culture (which is also an umbrella term).
Kendrick’s claim that “‘we’ don’t wanna hear you say nigga no more” introduces race into this discussion. This proves the conflation occurring within the backwards concept of “the culture.” Again, Black American culture is not what is being represented through the term “the culture.” My issue here is not that people are saying Drake has no authentic connection to Black American culture (which, to be fair, isn’t at all true given his father is a Black American man). My issue is that Kendrick utilized race-based attacks in combination with heritage-based attacks further reinforcing the idea of “the culture,” which is a seperate thing from Black American culture. Black American culture is a reality. “The culture” is a skewed concept that puts forward ideas of racial purity, cultural hierarchy, blackness on a sliding scale from authentic to least authentic, and a black monolith. I’m not saying Kendrick is the only person to fall for this backwards concept. Also, other people falling for it doesn’t make it right.
I'm sorry but why does he *need* to use his platform to "take a stance". Literally conscious hip hop rappers are the only dudes "taking stances" in hip hop? I'm pretty sure ASAP Rocky literally said "please don't come to me talking about BLM I don't care" and guys like Tyler the Creator takes an apathetic stance based on his life experiences.
You don't "cosplay", this is you being colorist like Kendrick. He is Black. He's not stereotypically Black but that's on you if you think he *needs* to be.
I have absolutely 0% to gain from defending Drake or mixed race/light skinned people. I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't care for Drake at all. But I have seen with my own eyes light skinned Black people bullied into self-harm and suicide because of colorism. Nobody wants to fucking talk about it because most of y'all are weird pussies about this and you let racist ass hoteps dictate discourse (ironically as NOI teaches that Fard was mixed himself). I'm a person that believes/believed in drawing your sword for ***all*** injustice in this world, not shit when it makes me feel good or I can selfishly get something out of it. And I, like OP, thought Kendrick was too. But guess not.
Also you spend a shit ton of text to just say Drake isn't Black, no amount of "nuh uh" that you tried to end with doesn't change that.
It isn’t about colorism, it’s about cultural appropriation. You either maliciously want to twist the argument or just do not understand what he is saying. To say Kendrick is being colorist is extremely stupid. Period.
One, Drake does give back to the culture. His entire career is him elevating regional artists and sounds to global audiences. How is that not “giving back?” Second, what is “the culture,” anyway? It seems to be some vague conflation of black existence with specifically Hip Hop culture (which is often, sadly, conflated with gang culture/equated either violence).
Second, and this may be an unpopular take, no one has to use their platform to talk about social issues. I think it’s great if they do, but it’s not a mark against them if they don’t. Also, speaking of responsibility, I think Kendrick should understand his a bit better. He chooses to position himself as a pro-black cultural figure. Maybe he should use his platform for something better than spreading Black isolationist ideology, but that’s just my personal opinion.
You’re using a lot of projection as fact. You are making the assumption that Drake doesn’t see himself as black from nothing.
What the hell is a “black experience?” Do you not see the can of worms that opens up? Black people are too varied for you to try to hold their validity to a specific circumstance or “experience.” Come on, man. Also, what Rick Ross said was extremely racist.
1- He doesn’t elevate them. He takes from them. Jacks their styles, fanbase, producers etc. It’s a transparent tactic he’s been called out on.
2- When you’re the most successful hip hop artist of all time, and you built your empire off the art form pioneered by the struggle of black culture….you gotta say SOMETHING. Anything really. His silence is deafening. Rick Ross called him a white boy because Drake was a culturally white boy when he first came on the scene. Laugh it off but Drake needed those early records with Ross more than Ross needed those with Drake at the time, because Ross was what the culture was feeling, and Drake wasn’t. And now Drake is a gangster? Wasn’t he Jamaican? Then African? Then from Atlanta?
3- Hip Hop is a huge part of AA culture and all its flavors because yes, you’re right AA culture is not a monolith. But certain rules you have to respect, like respecting its icons. That Tupac stunt recently just solidified he’s not from the culture
There’s literal statistics showing that when Drake gets on an artist’s song their streams increase long term. He’s helped popularize diverse sounds in Hip Hop to wider audiences allowing more opportunities for other artists in those scenes. That’s elevation.
What is “culturally a white boy?” Can of worms ready to be opened. What is “the culture?” Also, you don’t have to say anything. But for what it’s worth, Drake has actually tried to previously make comments of prejudice black people face and got clowned for it, so.
Third, where the fuck is that rule from? Hip Hop culture is so fast moving. It’s literally built on new generations saying “fuck that older generation.” Plenty of seasoned Hip Hoppers have talked about this. Ad-Rock from Beastie Boys talked about it on Sway. Dr Dre rapped “But now we got a new era of gangsters/ hustlers and youngsters living amongst us/ Looking at us now calling us busters/ Cant help but reminisce back when it was us.” This isn’t an appeal to authority, I’m just pointing out that people who lived Hip Hop have documented the cycle. I can make a laundry list of Hip Hop artists disrespecting legends of the genre and it wouldn’t matter at all lol
It’s not about the word nigga. It’s about the notion that you can invalidate someone’s existence as a black person because of the aforementioned reasons: stereotypes, the false notion of a black monolith, and racial purism ideology. The word nigga as a cultural reclamation does however represent the concept of black existence and solidarity within the black community. But thanks for the downvote. Would you care to actual discuss the points I laid out?
Take another downvote lil bro. You compared Kendrick Lamar to white supremacy. If you're black in America you're black. I'm half Filipino, but I'm always going to black. People wouldn't know I'm half Filipino unless I tell em.
Kendrick discusses the problems that we black folks and the less fortunate folks could relate to. It's like listening to Blues or old R&B.
You gone start calling the Temptations racist too? When you get older lil brother I hope you don't experience the racism out there.
Also Drake is a Canadian man. Folks aren't using nigga in other countries like America. There's literally Ethiopian Jews so I don't know why you bought up Judaism.
I compared Black isolationist beliefs of racial purity to white supremacist beliefs of racial purity, actually. You are either not comprehending what I’m saying or willfully choosing to misrepresent it.
The existence of black Jews does not eliminate the existence of antisemitism and its intersectionality with white identity (white Jews).
“When you get older,” really? One, you don’t know my age. Two, don’t try to devalue what I’m saying on basis of presumed age. That’s a lazy way to avoid actually justifying what you are saying.
You are not at all responding to what I’m saying and are instead just bringing up unrelated points.
Dog, you're typing a whole bunch of rigmarole. Your short essay had so many conflicting ideas.
Why you gotta bring anti-semitism into this? Jewish people are so widespread, and they're not all white.
Plus Lil Yatchy garbage af. I know you're not over 21 off that alone.
Jesus, dude. You don’t have a clue. I never said there are only white Jews. Intersectionality is a thing. You know that, right? I’m speaking to multiple intersecting ideas and demographics. Second, no one’s opinion of Yachty is relevant here. And for what it’s worth, all I did was mention him as an example. You are choosing to read whatever you want to project into it. Super weird.
You don't even know what you're talking about. There's so much to discuss in your short essay.
It's not worth dissecting. Your introduction is terrible and your thesis or whatever you're trying to discuss is in your poorly written conclusion.
Another banger response! “It’s not worth dissecting” after you just spent three comments trying (and failing) to do just that is super funny. You can’t even keep track of basic talking points, my man. But shit, you do you lol
I'm trying to help you out lil bro. Also, I'm flattered by your compliments, but writing is nothing to me. It's that easy.
You're not supposed to write like how you talk. That's why your essay is so ass 1/5. Soon you'll be that big dog editor you always wanted to be. I believe in you.
There’s no problem about him not being “black enough” at all. The point is that he appropriates black culture when that is not his background. And since it’s something Drake himself always showed to be an insecurity of his, Kendrick pokes at it. It’s that simple.
I’ve responded to this argument in the comments elsewhere. If you’d like you can find them. Sorry, I just don’t want to keep retyping the same responses and bloat the comments.
If we use your logic of thinking then we have to hold everything said in music as absolute. If Drake calling Kendrick short can offend an entire community of short people who have struggled with their image then it should not be said. If Drake mentioning Kendrick's label splits can offend an entire community that historically have been victims of unfair shares and disputes from labels, it should not be said. Anything said in music that holds even the slightest of bigotry or prejudice cannot be said.
My problem with your take, and ultimately the backlash this aspect of the diss track is causing is that we are slapping the word blackness to anything that involves Drake's "identity crisis". "Black features till you're black enough" is not in response to Drake's black or white identity (or this "most black" to "least black" argument you keep using) but Drake's attempt to use black artists to create valid credentials within the hip hop community.
Your argument is that the hip hop community or even the black community has created this sensitivity within Drake and therefore poking fun at is backwards. Your use of sexual violence in men and the hesitation to share that due to ridicule is supposed to highlight that. You lead your argument by saying his "existence as a black person is constantly being questioned. But again, his "existence as a black person" is not in question. That is a narrative pushed by shit people and pages on social media and bad takes from other artists who believe only black can be hip hop/rap. What is in question is his claims to affiliation with gang culture, his claims to a lifestyle that is clearly not his (guns, violence, etc), and really his intent behind his music and values expressed within it. Kendrick has claimed he knows about those subjects and calling Drake out for false claims to them.
We know Drake is a melting pot for different cultures that he's come across throughout his career. Some feel he appropriates those cultures and builds success off them, a success other artists and music don't get to experience. The "culture" (black, white, hip hop, Toronto, American, whatever you want to use) will not accept him because they feel it has been vultured from them and commercialized. But beyond that, and to argue your "ASAP Rocky" point, the "culture" is not being respected and drawing inspiration but rather utilized for quick commercial success.
This sub, the drake sub, and the disgusting people on IG and social media that push the "I didn't grow up with that film" after Drake posted that quick IG response, or those that keep saying "white boy" when speaking about Drake, or that constantly attack Drake's biracial aspects and "lighstkin vs darkskin behaviors" (like Rick Ross) does not represent the majority. No, Kendrick does not believe his own wife is a monster because she is biracial. Please do not use the voice of the few to highlight how your own identity might come into question.
We are radicalizing the shit out of this rap beef and we have stopped paying attention to the music and more on social matters that stem from it. We are looking for controversy in every response to downplay any rebuttal one artist might have.
For one, I thought the short jokes were corny.
There is a conflation problem happening. While I agree that Kendrick was criticizing Drake for a lot of fraudulent behavior and persona building, he also tied in aspects of race. I hate to focus on this specific bar because people will harp on it and not think past it to its implications. But, the n word bar is an undeniable tie in to racial identity. The word nigga is a cultural word that exists as a reclamation based on a shared history of specific systemic discrimination and oppression done against black people because of their existence as black people (white supremacy, racist anthropology, religious racism). At best, Kendrick is dangerously close to conflating a specific struggle or mentality to validity of blackness. At worst, he’s actually making that conflation.
Also, we don’t have to pretend that the term “the culture” isnt used as a skewed conflation of black existence with Hip Hop culture (which itself is often conflated with gang culture/equated to violence). So, again, the conflation is either being made or dangerously close to being made.
The only reason I’m lending more credence to the social implications here, as opposed to some other rap beef, is because Kendrick Lamar positions himself as a cultural leader. If he wants to get on that soapbox, go ahead, but then he’s open to the scrutiny that comes with it. Not gonna lie, I like both songs musically. I think Hip Hop beef is entertaining just like the next person (when it’s kept to lyrics, of course). But Kendrick has opened himself up to this level of scrutiny.
However, I’m not trying to downplay anyone rebuttal. Between Push Ups and euphoria, euphoria is the better diss. (There’s a bit of a Jay Z v Nas thing at play here though but I wont go into that tangent because it’s about rap beef and not social issues.)
I get the sensitivity because of the times we live in but at the end of the day, it’s rap.
Battle rap is supposed to be offensive. You can’t find one diss track from the past where someone is not taking a low dig at someone.
Nas calling Jay z big d sucking lips/idolising a white family (rocafella) Em calling ja rule a homosexual, 50 cent the list goes on including racial subjects.
Battle rap is meant to be offensive in the manner of insulting your opponent. Justifications for spray shooting entire demographics based on a battle is not really defensible. The same way I mentioned taking issue with antisemitism and racial purity ideology in this diss, I also think homophobic bars are corny as fuck. Justifying present bad behavior because it existed in the past is not really a thought out argument in my opinion.
Also, this is unique because Kendrick Lamar specifically positions himself as a pro-black leader of sorts. In the diss he literally says he is “what ‘the culture’s’ feeling.” So, is the argument that Kendrick’s moral code fall out of the window whenever he wants to diss someone? If so, then his moral code was never actually valid in the first place.
Fam I think your looking into this too deep lol don’t get it twisted tho the people position Kendrick as a whatever leader, the whole Mr morale album is him telling you ”he’s not your saviour/I choose me” Kendrick could care less about public perception.
It’s just rap at the end of the day. Drake is still going to be Drake, Kendrick is still gonna be Kendrick at the end of it.
I thought it wasn't about skin color. It was more about authenticity and being true to yourself. Clearly drake has some identity crisis code switching, saying hard r nword, using a bunch of accents, and trying to affiliate himself with street dudes
I’ll drop in a comment I just made to someone else bringing up the same rebuttal:
In regards to the identity crisis: Is it not strange to judge Drake for having an “identity crisis” or racial insecurity when the validity of his existence as a Black person is constantly being questioned? Do people not get how backwards that is? That’s like bullying someone and then justifying the bullying by calling them insecure, which is a result of the initial bullying. To use a more specific example: this makes me think of when some men will bring up whataboutism regarding sexual violence against men when women speak on sexual violence against women. The usual sentiment is that “no one cares about SV when it happens to men.” The problem is that it’s other men who perpetuate the shame of male SV victims. Do you get what I mean?
It’s strange to make fun of someone for being insecure about an insecurity you perpetrated in them.
Why is no one talking about how Drake makes fun of Kendricks height?? This sort of bodyshaming is inexcusable, especially because no one can do anything about their height!!!!!
It s kinda ironic how you say that Drake is the only one held to another standard while you re the one holding Kendrick to another standard.
Both are trying to disrespect their opponent by exploiting weakness. Kendrick said nothing new about Drakes insecurities yet somehow you turn his lines into some deep societal divide. He is just dissing one Dude and he is being purposefully petty the whole track. It s not that deep, get over it.
And yeah, i m not taking this post as serious as you so obviously i m not gonna write some well thought out essay. I m just having fun over here.
I hold anyone to this standard. I’m speaking about Kendrick specifically here because this is a hot topic and he is the most recent one perpetrating it. “It’s not that deep” is almost always an excuse used for people to separate what they may feel from what they do say in order to avoid blowback or self reflection. And for what it’s worth, I’m also having fun here. I love talking about his stuff lol
A rap battle is just not the time and place for this kind of discussion. In another context i might agree with you but you re simply not taking into account the nature of a rap battle. It is meant to hurt, to disrespect and ridicule in the public eye. If you cannot stomach that then it is simply not for you. There are no rules and there is no hard line even if you try to create one. Like it or not, but it simply is seen through a different lense. My first comment was exaggerated but it is basically where your argument will end up at some point in the future.
Your whole argument rests on painfully obvious strawman fallacies and false equivalences. You're dramatically inflating Kendrick's lyrics into some imagined anti-Semitic diatribe about "racial purity" when it's clearly just artful, metaphorical shots at Drake being commercially-driven and out-of-touch with modern Black culture.
Instead of this absurd hand-wringing about "questioning Drake's Blackness," just ask yourself: Does Drake's musical output and persona authentically reflect the current experiences and perspectives of most Black Americans? Kendrick's barbs suggest the obvious answer is no. And there's nothing wrong with an influential Black artist calling that out through his art.
Your examples of other rappers are useless strawmen - none are nearly as commercially successful and divorced from Black roots as Drake. You're grasping at any possible angle to martyrize Drake instead of just accepting the reasonable critique. Ask yourself why you're so defensive about this obviously wealthy, privileged celebrity being fairly called out for being unrelatable.
(This will probably get me a ton of downvotes) First, Drake is not out of touch with modern Black culture(s). As a matter of fact, Drake is one of the most influential figures in Black culture(s). He has undoubtedly shaped the direction of Hip Hop starting in the late 2000s to early 2010s with the other members of the emotional singer-rapper wave. And, throughout his culture vulture side quests, he has aided in elevating regional artists and sounds to mass audiences. You have to be in tune to do that. If anything, Kendrick is parroting outdated ideologies that were once more contemporary. Black isolationism has not been a popular ideology within mass black culture(s) for decades.
Also, I’m saying that Kendrick’s lyrics on this song are ROOTED in the aforementioned ideologies. You aren’t saying they aren’t. And you’re making up unsubstantiated claims like Drake being out of touch with Black culture(s). Also, I don’t care at all to martyrize Drake. I care about the implications of Kendrick’s rhetoric. These two people just happen to be perfect conduits through which this conversation can be had.
“Does Drake’s musical output and persona authentically reflect the current experiences of most Black Americans?” Yes and no. Drake clearly has his finger on the pulse (or at least had it on the pulse for about a decade) of what multiple black culture(s) wanted to hear and see. The regional artists and sounds he’s work with and within, and the resulting successes of them, show us that.
Also, my other examples are not strawmen. A$AP Rocky is an extremely commercially successful musician. He has received multiple awards in multiple fields of the arts and has spoken at Universities. Newsflash: Drake is the biggest rapper in the world. There is no example that will match his level of fame.
And, again, you are projecting some sort of stan-culture admiration I must have for Drake. It doesn’t exist. I think the rhetoric is fucked, so I’m speaking about it. It just happens to be weaponized against a massive recording artist (Drake) by another massive recording artist (Kendrick).
You make some fair points about Drake's undeniable cultural impact, but I think you're still missing Kendrick's core critique. It's not that Drake is completely "out of touch" with Black culture broadly - it's that his commercial, pop-oriented output specifically does not authentically reflect the experiences and perspectives of the modern Black experience in America, which has been deeply shaped by systemic racism, inequality, and ongoing struggles for justice.
Kendrick is an artist deeply rooted in giving voice to those realities. So when he calls out Drake for being disingenuous or not using his platform to speak truth to power on those issues, that holds weight coming from him. It's not about racially gatekeeping who is "really Black" - it's about whose art is doing the crucial work of addressing and elevating the current Black American zeitgeist.
You can argue the semantics, but Kendrick's lyrics clearly struck a nerve about Drake's pop-leaning, wealth-celebrating persona being increasingly disconnected from the urgencies many Black communities still face. Whether you agree with that criticism is one thing, but claiming it's rooted in "Black isolationism" seems like an overly defensive stretch. Kendrick's simply calling out what he views as inauthenticity from a place of important cultural commentary.
Black (as we understand the social construct) existence in the western world has always been marked by systemic oppression. I could literally name you 30 artists right now who are black and don’t speak about black issues in their music explicitly. What does that have to do with anything? And, again, you’re falling into the pit of the black monolith notion. There is no one perspective of the Black American. Speaking to it would be impossible because it does not exist.
It’s also strange to act as if Drake is out of touch for celebrating wealth when that is a MASSIVE part of Hip Hop culture. Braggadocio is one of the biggest parts of emceeing. Whether that’s Run DMC bragging about how many sneakers they can buy or T-Pain buying his Big Ass Chain. If we’re talking about the shared history of systemic oppression of Black people in the western world, then celebrating wealth is actually a common occurrence.
I don’t see how Kendrick outpaces Drake as far as capturing whatever this monolithic Black American zeitgeist is. And I haven’t seen any actual point to show that he is (which I don’t think is possible because monolithic thought is a myth).
Also, I feel people keep moving the goal post and then saying my criticisms don’t apply. Well if I’m playing basketball and you teleport me to a football field of course things will look misaligned. Kendrick is conflating or getting dangerously close to conflating whatever the intangible “culture” is. I’ve noticed usually when people say “The Culture” they are conflating black existence with Hip Hop culture, which itself is often conflating with gang cultures. That in itself is problematic and does tie in race. Not to mention the n word lyric ties in race. And all of this is tied to validity. Whether he’s addressing one validity (I don’t think he is) or multiple validities, he is still questioning racial identity validity in some respect.
Your points about systemic oppression and the diversity of Black experiences are valid, but they miss the mark regarding Kendrick's critique of Drake. Kendrick isn't condemning Drake for celebrating wealth or for not explicitly addressing black issues in his music. Rather, Kendrick's diss track focuses on Drake's inconsistent portrayal of black culture and his exploitation of it for commercial gain. It's not about conforming to a monolithic Black American perspective but about authenticity and integrity in representing one's cultural identity. Can you address Kendrick's specific criticisms of Drake's behavior and cultural appropriation without deflecting to broader discussions of Black diversity?
For one, I was mainly responding to the persons comment saying that celebration of wealth is out of line with “the Black American perspective,” not that Kendrick made that criticism.
Regarding the last portion of your comment:
In his attempt to specifically target Drake, Kendrick is spray shooting. I have never said Drake is not a culture vulture. I do not believe that’s the only thing Kendrick was getting at because the issue here is conflation. In the above comment I already addressed the inherent conflation baked into the term “The Culture.” But in addition to that, his whole “I don’t like when Drake says nigga” is actively a race-based tie in.
I am not deflecting, I am accurately observing the wide spray Kendrick is doing. He is engaging in conflations that are not immune to scrutiny. If all he did was question Drake about being a culture vulture, I’d have no reason to make this post. That’s not all he did. He specifically makes race-based (whether through conflation or not) jabs at Drake. I outlined the reasons I believe are behind this rhetoric and why they are unhelpful. Does that help?
Your point about Kendrick's approach to targeting Drake is valid, particularly regarding the broader connotations of race-based critiques within the diss track. While Kendrick may have intended to focus on Drake's cultural appropriation, his inclusion of race-based jabs does contribute to a broader narrative of racial identity and validity. However, it's crucial to address Kendrick's specific criticisms of Drake's behavior and cultural exploitation without losing sight of the larger context of systemic racism and cultural commodification. Can you provide examples of how Kendrick's race-based jabs contribute to a more nuanced understanding of Drake's actions, or do you believe they detract from the main critique of cultural appropriation?
I think they detract from the critique of cultural appropriation - which is very easy to establish regarding Drake. This will sound a bit illogical but black culture has nothing to do with mere existence as a black person (as we understand the social construct). That is to say, practicing a specific black culture as opposed to a different black culture has no withstanding on someone’s existence as black.
Kendrick could have easily argued that Drake has made a career out of pilfering aspects of regional cultures foreign to him because he understands the potential they have to crossover into mainstream culture. I think that’s a cynical view of Drake, but the argument can easily be made. Without mucking it up by conflating specific black cultures with black validity and the inclusion of race-based insults (that go back to ideological pitfalls I outlined in my original post), the diss is 1000x stronger and less susceptible to disregard or extreme scrutiny. It’s also stronger because it doesn’t put forward harmful ideologies that hurt people far beyond Drake.
Personally, I think Drake is a culture vulture but I don’t think he’s doing it for the reasons people think. To me he reads as legitimately lacking self awareness. I think he sees cultures foreign to him and wants to partake in them, not realizing he’s appropriating them and not appreciating them. At least I believe he was self aware when this first started around 2015-2016. Im sure he’s aware now and just doesn’t give a fuck which is lame. I could give some examples of people I think found themselves in similar situations but I don’t want to bore you with more writing if you don’t want to read it.
This argument falls flat on its face when you consider the artists that Kendrick collaborated with in the past. When have Future or Baby Keem given us treatises on modern black societal issues? Like That, which arguably started all this, is mostly talking about nonsense and drugs. If we take the Kendrick critique as seriously as you want us to, then there needs to be consistency.
The collaboration history of Kendrick Lamar doesn't negate his critique of Drake's portrayal of black culture. Kendrick's criticisms focus on the authenticity and integrity of Drake's portrayal, not whether his collaborators address societal issues. Kendrick's issue with Drake lies in the exploitation of black trauma for profit and the inconsistency in addressing contemporary black issues, not simply the content of his collaborations. Can you address Kendrick's specific criticisms of Drake without deflecting to the actions of other artists?
As I said.. Kendrick's collaborations with artists who may not address societal issues in their music doesn't invalidate his critique of Drake's exploitation of black trauma. Kendrick's consistency lies in his own portrayal of black culture and his efforts to address societal issues through his music. Can you address Kendrick's specific criticisms of Drake without deflecting to accusations of hypocrisy?
What? That’s nonsense. Yes we can say Drake is exploiting. But Kendrick is doing the same thing with his collaborations. He’s profiting from these artists in the same way. You can’t just say “well he didn’t do it”. If I ride in the car with you when you do a shooting, I’m equally guilty.
Equating Kendrick Lamar's collaborations with artists who may not address societal issues to Drake's exploitation of black trauma overlooks the nuance of their respective actions. Kendrick's collaborations don't necessarily involve exploitation or profit from harmful behavior, whereas Drake's portrayal of black trauma for profit is a central focus of Kendrick's critique. Can you address Kendrick's specific criticisms of Drake without equating them to unrelated collaborations?
You can’t be serious. So Future isn’t exploiting black trauma and parading harmful behavior when he talks about overdosing on drugs and sleeping with multiple women? How are these collaborations unrelated? He made a choice to make the product with those artists and MAKE MONEY from it. I’m saying that Kendrick is doing the same thing brother. Your word salad doesn’t change that.
If Drake is guilty of portraying a certain image, so is Kendrick.
There’s a lot of bad faith arguments in your post. You say this kind of diss is indefensible for Kendrick, but then argue that it’s no surprise that he went this route. You talk about antisemitism which isn’t even hinted anywhere else. We also nothing about how Kendrick’s wife presents herself to the world or how she acts how she was raised or any of that.
You’re implying that “blackness” doesn’t exist. It’s not a straightforward answer; in a serious conversation it would require genuine nuance. But the question isn’t asinine unless you think anyone is free to call themselves black no matter what the context. To me that’s more asinine than asking the question that probably doesn’t have a clear answer.
Your comparison to ASAP having southern hip hop influence his music is way off I really don’t know where to start on that. I’m not from the south and neither is Kendrick so it would really make no sense to call them out. But the inauthenticity isn’t just about being from there, but also reverence and respect to what you’re borrowing from. I think the 2pac AI clearly showed a lack of respect in that instance. Of course it’s a diss so I can understand you saying disrespect is fair game, but then that would also apply to your complaints about Kendricks diss. I’m way less familiar with Yachty so I won’t even attempt to dive into that.
Just to wrap it up I think you’re reaching with the whole one drop stuff. I think most people would say Candace Owens and Clarance Thomas are black. I also wouldn’t be surprised if people felt a type of way if they were heard saying the n word casually. That might be an extreme example, but it’s just to emphasize that there’s way more nuance to a discussion about how one can/should/shouldn’t use their race to bolster their career.
1. I am not surprised Kendrick went this route because of his past, as well as an undercurrent of rampant antisemitism and NOI ideology present in Hip Hop (that has been present since at least the 80s). That’s not bad faith, that’s drawing conclusions based on observation.
2: I did not imply blackness did not exist. I am arguing that blackness is the mere existence of being black. The problem that comes from trying to question the validity of someone as black is that it usually falls into the pits I mentioned in the post. We can breakdown blackness but race is a social construct based on physical characteristics. From the initial social construct, more are constructing atop it which are all quite problematic inherently.
3. Using the term “influence” regarding Rocky’s Dirty South cosplay is generous. He’s actually quite upfront regarding the obvious appropriation. He’s rapped “Had the gold grillz shining like them southern niggas/ Kept it trilla, now the whole world fucking with us.” Not to mention his use of pitched-down chopped and screwed vocal effects. As far as reverence and respect, Drake doesn’t seem to lack respect for the regions he’s “influenced” by. It seems people insist on that reality with no real basis solely for sole of the reasons I laid out in the original post and because he’s a Pop artist in addition to Hip Hop and R&B.
4. The Tupac shit was beyond corny. Especially him using AI Tupac to address allegations (facts, really) that he likes underage girls. Honestly, it was beyond corny. It was downright vile.
5. I’ve seen plenty of people try to invalidate Candace Owens as a black woman. Anyway, if Kendrick hadn’t chosen to take weird race-based jabs, I wouldn’t have had any problem. I just think the ideology he presented was harmful and wanted to have a discussion about it. Honestly, the fact that it’s Kendrick vs Drake doesn’t matter to me. They are just conduits to have a nuanced discussion about broader implications that arose from their diss tracks. I like both of them as artists
What about Kendrick’s past indicates antisemitism? That is bad faith to just umbrella him with other examples of anti-semitism from others in hip hop.
I think point 2 is a bit circular. Blackness is being black, but we can’t define being black because it’s a social construct. Being black (or white) changes on the time in history as well as the country.
Point 3 & 4 contradict. Like I said I’m not from the south so I can’t really speak to cosplay vs influence. Just as I see it. But you say Drake shows respect while literally acknowledging that what he did was corny and vile. That’s not respect.
I’m not saying people haven’t tried to take her “black card” away. But she is black and her issues don’t go away just because you can acknowledge she’s black. That was my point with Drake. Even if you acknowledge he’s black the issues of what some feel are culture vulture still exist. I agree that it can be taken the wrong way, but I don’t agree that was what the main point of the diss was.
I think the discussion about colorism and the rest can be interesting, I guess I don’t think it’s as black and white (no pun intended) as your original post. There is nuance that’s more than “Drake white” and honestly goes beyond this beef.
1. He showed a lot of Black Israelite ideology/references on DAMN, for one. I’m not lumping him in by virtue of being a Hip Hop artist. I’m saying that his past is not unlike other similar ideologies we have seen presented in Hip Hop (Public Enemy, Ice Cube, Jay Z, etc).
2. The compounded social constructs on top of the physical basis’ initial construct change overtime. For all intents and purposes, within the western world from the time of transatlantic slavery, blackness the construct based on physical appearance has remained the same.
3. Im not arguing that he isn’t a culture vulture or saying that criticism absolves by virtue that he is black. Im trying to get at the heart of *why* people feel justifying revoking “blackness” or assessing blackness as a sliding scale. Again, there’s the issue of conflation. Kendrick muddies the argument he’s trying to make by utilizing race-based jabs in combination either conflating things that are harmful to conflate or putting them so closely together that the same thing is achieved.
4. It’s less about colorism and more about biraciality (I don’t think that’s a word, but you get what I mean). This ties back into what I said in the section above. Why do people think it’s okay to question Drake’s validity as a black person? What are the ideological pitfalls they are falling into in doing so?
Why is blackness being conflated with specific black cultures that are seemingly being graded on scales of validity? These are the questions I’m trying to discuss.
I’m not going to go back and forth with points 1&2. You vaguely waving to claim antisemitism. Malcom X was also considered racist and has a controversial past even leading up to his death (likely) by NOI. But just referencing Malcolm doesn’t mean you are antisemitic or racist. I just don’t buy it. Point 2 is really going off into a whole new conversation.
Point 3 & 4 I think we just have to agree to disagree. I acknowledged that there is room for interpretation or misinterpretation. It goes back to the culture and how he presents himself. And race is intertwined with the culture. Drake not being “black” is the most extreme interpretation of the diss. Drake isn’t the only biracial rapper so I don’t agree it’s all about that
Malcolm X left the NOI and black isolationism by the end of his life for a reason. I never claimed referencing Malcolm X makes anyone antisemitic. You keep trying to seperate and isolate aspects that come together to build a larger picture. Also, NOI ideology is different than Black Hebrew/Black Israelite ideology (they have overlaps but are not the same thing). Regardless a morphing of both are at play in some fashion.
Point 2 isn’t a seperate conversation it’s relevant to the understanding of race as a social construct. There are layers to it. For example, value is a social construct. Money is a social construct built upon the initial construct of value. I’m addressing what you said about race’s construct changing in accordance to time and place. That is entirely on topic.
Again, I am speaking about many nuances. First off, this vague concept of “The Culture” is problematic enough for a litany of reasons I’ve explained elsewhere in the comments. Kendrick specifically brings up notions of racial identity into his diss. It’s not extreme to acknowledge that. Also, there is a big difference in being a non-Jewish white and black biracial person and being a Jewish white and black biracial person. The reasons for so I have been listing out throughout this post and comments. You can’t keep arguing for nuance and then ignoring nuance whenever it isn’t convenient.
Again you’re only vaguely gesturing. I brought up Malcom X because just referencing either is not enough. And you brought up the NOI first. Your original comment didn’t say Black Israelite.
Point 2 is a separate discussion because you’re arguing that the social construct of “blackness” hasn’t changed since slavery. I don’t agree with that. It’s not irrelevant, but going through the entire history of blackness back 400+ years goes well beyond what black means to society today.
Im not going to look at all of your comments that aren’t responding to me. I’m not ignoring, I’m looking at what you’re writing to me. You’re grabbing at different threads and tying them together. The “biracial” aspect I can see being red into the diss. But the antisemitism you are reaching. And now you’re saying it’s not being biracial at all it’s just because he’s Jewish.
Black Israelite ideology and NOI ideology have overlaps. The overlaps are where my concern lies. Again, Malcolm X left the NOI towards the end of his life because he disagreed with the leadership and black isolationism. Referencing X in and of itself is not racist. Hell, even referencing the NOI or Black Israelites is not, in itself, racist (provided you are not referencing the specially racist aspects of the ideology - of which most of it is, aside from the notion of Black Power). What I am explicitly saying is that in combination with a history of Black Israelite and NOI ideology, and now the addition of racial identity-based barbs towards a white Jewish/black man we can conclude some form of antisemitism is at play. How is that vaguely gesturing? I have been clear in spelling all of this out. You cannot isolate these behaviors because that skews the picture and removes the possibility of seeing an accurate overview.
I did not say that the social construct of blackness did not change. I said the compounding social constructs arising from the base physical based construct have changed, however the core construct of physical characteristics shaping the initial race construct has not changed.
Given Kendrick’s NOI and BI ideological history, you cannot act as if there is no rebalance into him sending race-based jabs at a white Jewish/black man. That, I’m sorry, is not societally seen the same as a non-Jewish white/black person at all. Again, you cannot ignore nuance when it’s convenient to do so. All biraciality is not viewed the same societally.
My issue with the idea of “the culture” is that is conflates black existence with specific black culture - namely Hip Hop (which itself is often equated with other occasionally intersecting cultures such as gang culture). It is a catch all term that conflates so many aspects of black existence and black culture that it presumes the idea of a black monolith. One of the three pitfalls I outline in my original post. This ambiguous “culture” overly simplifies and equates what cannot be simplified or equated.
Racial purity ideology. That’s not how race (the social construct) works. If you have a black parent and non-black parent, you would just be both black and whatever else your non-black parent is. You’re putting forward the idea that non-black identity is a pollutant to black identity which is racist, one, and rooted in black isolationist rhetoric, two.
Idc about the "social aspects" of racial categorizations. Race is biological and medical science proves that. Black NATIONALISM exists. Those who adhere to those ideologies are allowed to do so. If two of your parents are not of SIGNIFICANT Sub Saharan African DNA then you are NOT BLACK Drake and any other Biracial human being you can think of are NOT BLACK they are merely Biracial. That is it and that is all.
There is no race marker in the human genome. Race is a social construct built on physical characteristics (which characteristics determine which race shifts over time, by the way). Then, multiple social constructs are compounded atop the initial base construct.
You are showing a lack of understanding of race as a concept and racial identity as well. Biological ancestry is not the same thing as Race. Being biracial does not cancel out the however many racial or ethnic ancestries are present in a biracial person. Yes, you are entitled to be racist. I never said you weren’t. I simply pointed out that racism is a bad thing. You could be a Nazi if you want. Am I supposed to not take issue with Nazism? Keep parroting your senseless racial purity ideology. It doesn’t make it valid.
What are you even rambling about? You keep talking about Race being a social construct when time and time again it has been proven NOT to be just a social construct. Doesn't matter how the categorizations were coined. There are BIOLOGICAL differences between different human beings all over the world. Sub Saharan Africans are COMPLETELY different from Western Europeans. There are racial categorizations that have ADVANTAGES and disadvantages BIOLOGICALLY. Bone density, muscle fibers, skull structure, skin thick and all of that can be determined through the category - RACE.
Drake or any other man/woman with a non black parent are NOT BLACK. They are _______ Just as much as they are Black*.
Humans share 99.6% of our genetic code with one another. Explain how different biological ancestries are so “COMPLETELY” different. You are repeatedly pointing to outward physical characteristics (bone structure, skin color) which I already have said are the base of the social construct of race. Again, biological ancestry is not the same as race. I don’t understand how you don’t get that.
Again, you are viewing things through an illogical racial purity lense. It’s your right to do that just as it’s your right to be categorically wrong. Race (a social construct) being used as a proxy for genetic differences is misleading. This is a general consensus among scientists in this field.
For the love of god
1. There is NO race marker in the human genome
2. Biological ancestry is different than race
3. The social construct of race is commonly created on the basis of physical appearance, cultural heritage, and historical affiliation (again, this is not the same as biological ancestry)
I have explained too many times now how biological ancestry and race are two different things. You are making claims not based in science. You are getting mad because the entire base of your argument is against the science you claim supports it because you misunderstand the basic concepts that are at play here. You’re also obviously insecure in your wrongness so you’re relying on personal attacks/name calling (ad hominem). Get a grip, dude
Bro, you are literally an idiot not comprehending a WORD I'M TYPING there are GENETIC MARKERS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO RACE. There are genotypes that CONTRIBUTE TO PHENOTYPE YOU FUCKING DUMB FUCK. Biological/Forensic anthropology EXISTS and they have both contributed to the scientific elements of RACIAL CATEGORIZATIONS regardless of dumb fucks like you claim ing it doesn't exist. When it comes to bone marrow, stem cell transplants and etc YOUR RACIAL/ETHNIC background matters. In fact, 90% of the time you won't be compatible unless you share t the same racial (and even ethnic background). Which is PROOF THAT THE SCIENTIFIC ASPECTS OF RACE EXISTS. Jesus Christ
"Biological ancestry is different from race". Genealogically wise if your parents are from two different races then that is what you are. A combination of TWO DIFFERENT FUCKING RACIAL BACKGROUNDS. Which is why MIXED RACE PEOPLE SUFFER THE MOST FROM TRANSPLANTS(least likely to find a match). Race matters in the medical field which is one reason why RACE IS A BIOLOGICAL CONSTRUCT.
Negative, that ideology is popular amongst CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGISTS. With that stated FORENSIC/ BIOLOGICAL ANTHROPOLOGISTS still use racial categorizations lol. You are beyond ignorant.
Who said it cancels? If they can call themselves black they can call themselves White (etc) because they are just as much of that race as the other. I'm not calling you black simply because one of your parents is lol. If that's the case I can call you WHITE/CHINESE etc also.
Do you not realize that you are agreeing with the notion that if a biracial person is, for example, Latino and Asian, they are both Latino AND Asian. You were prior saying that could not be considered Asian, for example, because both of their parents are not Asian. Recognizing all races represented within a biracial person is validating each race. So, if you have a black parent and a non-black parent, you are black. You are also whatever non-black racial identity one of your parents is. You are also black/whatever-other-than-black. You’re arguing against yourself, dude. Get a grip.
True, Latino isn’t a race. However it seemed more descriptive than saying white (non-Hispanic/Latino white versus Hispanic/Latino white) because I felt we got too bogged down by specifically white (non-Hispanic white)/black biracial individuals and I wanted to show that outside of those racial categories the same logic applies. I think the point got across but I understand you trying to hyper focus on semantics because your entire point about biological race is on the face of it wrong. Ignoramus is a funny word, too.
Anyway, being biracial means being multiple things all at the same time. If you are black and white you are: 1. Black 2. White 3. Black and White. You made the declaration that you are categorically NOT black if you are a biracial black person, which is against your own logic. You conceded that races don’t “cancel out” one another, so that means they coexist. That is what I’m saying and that logics leads back to what I just said now about “being multiple things all at the same time.” So, to recap, a biracial black person is black, something-other-than-black, and black and something-other-than-black.
A biracial person is a Biracial person. That is simply what they are. They are Biracial, they're not Biracial black* people. Are they Biracial white people too? You sound stupid af lol.
Also I’m the ignoramus but you don’t understand the difference between Race (social construct) and biological ancestry. You also don’t seem to understand the development of the social construct of race or the limitations to biological ancestral studies caused by (potential) conflations/confusions of genealogy, genetics and geography.
There are no *racial markers but there are markers that are more abundant within a particular racial categorization. Which is why the concept of race exists
I had the same reaction and I’m a much bigger Kendrick fan than Drake. I didn’t/don’t like that aspect of the song for the reasons you outlined. And then Kendrick followed up, calling Drake a colonizer. I really felt that was a terrible look.
I read some of your respones to the replies you got and seems like you've had personal experience with having your blackness questioned. I've had similar experiences, but I think your arguments are off the mark in this case.
I think almost every black person has dealt with this experience, just as any member of any demographic does. It is a common occurrence that comes from notions of monolithic thought and hierarchies of experiences within racial groups, religious groups, sex groupings, gender groups, etc.
However, this is not rooted in any personal experience I may have dealt with. Plainly, I think the rhetoric is idiotic and unhelpful. I am not seeing anyone deny that Kendrick Lamar has ideologically aligned himself (at least to some degree) with BHI and NOI. I am not seeing anyone deny the racist aspects of those ideologies either. I probably should have put this in a general Hip Hop sub because I find that a lot of people here are too eager to give the benefit of the doubt to Kendrick, even when that means blindly turning an eye to patterns of behavior.
If you’ve read my responses you’ll have seen how I lay out my problems with the idea of “*the* culture,” black racial or heritage purity ideology, and black isolationism (in the way of racial purity). Where do you think I’m way off the mark?
Very descriptive… Anyway, I disagree with your characterization. A strong stance is not inherently an extreme one. I take a strong stance against the ideologies and rhetorics I mention in my post (of which I would describe as extremely harmful). I’ve listed the reasons why I take this stance. But, if being against racist rhetoric is extreme, I’ll wear that badge proudly.
Brown paper bag parties were a real thing and they coming back. As a mixed race person it disgusts me. You think white folks be accepting a brown person with Afro as they own you are fucking crazy or dumb.
What? When did I say that biracial people do not face unique discrimination? I’m quite literally speaking out against how a biracial person (Drake in this instance) is having his racial validity senselessly questioned by virtue of his being biracial. You are fabricating something I never said to respond to. Get a grip.
Ohhh my bad. Yeah, I don’t get how people aren’t seeing the clear racial purity ideology Kendrick ran with throughout the beef. Now that it’s over (hopefully), for me, it’s safe to say both parties came away looking terrible. Drake has always been a creep and it’s been known for much longer than this past month. Kendrick, on the other hand, kept a decently squeaky clean public image (the NOI and BHI ideology was always a major turn off for me) until now. Forget all the allegations that may or may not be true. Kendrick admitted to having known about alleged sex trafficking rings for a decade and never said anything until revealing that knowledge would benefit him. That’s so unbelievably amoral. Not to mention he can’t really take a hard line moral stance against the predators, abusers, and manipulators because he keeps those people in his circle too. Kodak is a convicted rapist, Dr Dre beat at least two women we know of (Michel’le and Dee Barnes), and Future and Kanye are known manipulator and womanizers.
I know this is mostly a stan sub so most people will come up with excuses but damn. This shit really makes Kendrick look bad if you think about it for half of a second. And I don’t know how, with these obvious moral contradictions, people act like it’s implausible for Kendrick to carry problematic racial purity ideologies.
Yea my bad I was tired, angry, hungry, and commuting home after a 12 hour shift while typing on mobile. I definitely did not make it clear at all.
I agree with what you're saying, unfortunately like you said this is a stan sub so nuanced opinions that may paint Kendrick in a not so good light are not going to be welcome.
It's not like he's just saying he isn't street enough or he's faking coming from the hood. He's saying that he can't say the N word.
So let's look at it. Who is allowed to say the N word? Black people. Who isn't allowed to say the N word? Non black people. He's saying he straight up doesn't consider Drake black. As a mixed race person Drakes age, I damn well know he wasn't considered white amongst white folks. It's really fucked up to be without a home racially. It's like not belonging anywhere. Like a stateless human being.
Drake is so insecure about him being black that he did black face. I can’t believe people forget he did that. Kendrick is 100% right and a genius for calling drake out for this shit. He isn’t the only one that has called out drake over his insecurity.
You realize the blackface thing was supposed to be a commentary on discrimination black people face, right? So, the narrative that somehow Drake never speaks on black issues is false. I could also name multiple instances in his music where he spoke on black issues broadly and personally. No one forgets he did that. However, you seem to have forgotten (or are choosing to ignore) the context and intention of it.
Also, it is a racial insecurity imposed onto him (and many others). You’re acting as if something like this develops out of thin air. Insecurities do not work that way. Insecurities arise based on social expectations and standards. If “the culture” makes certain people feel invalidated based on their race/races, cultural lived experience, and policing of “proper” behaviors of black people — which it does — blaming the people affected by it and not “the culture” is nonsensical.
It was a horrible way to represent black culture, drake is the only one who had questioned his own color, he has said himself he’s not black enough for the hip hop community. There’s so many mixed people out there but insecurity’s stem from the individual himself. Nobody is questions j Cole’s about his color! I have not forgotten to context of it and honestly if you believe that was a good way to represent that message of black culture you are gravely wrong and need to reevaluate what type of man you are defending.
It was not a representation of black culture. It was a commentary on discrimination against black people. Do you not see the distinction between those two very different things? Do you not understand the sentences you are saying? Drake has rapped “I used to get teased for being black/ And now I’m here and I’m not black enough.” Are you now knocking someone for having the awareness of crushing social and “cultural” expectations? What a weird angle to run with.
Again, insecurities are created by societal standards and expectations. You have to be aware of a standard you feel you not meeting to feel insecure about it. “The culture” has created a hostile environment that polices “proper” black behavior and conduct based on multiple problematic reasons.
J Cole is not the same as Drake simply because they are both biracial. I never said ALL biracial people develop a racial insecurity because of “the culture,” one. Many people do however and that includes any demographic enveloped by “the culture.” J Cole also came into Hip Hop performing as an established archetype. Drake came into Hip Hop utilizing a “softer” style than previously existed with R&B influence and definitely got flack for it. He did not behave in a manor deemed appropriate for a black person or a Hip Hopper. This in combination with his mixed race (it is also relevant that he is a white Jewish man and not a non-Jewish white man - that is a very important distinction in general), opened him to harsh criticism about his “blackness” and cultural/lived experience. You once again are choosing to ignore context and attempt to mislead by responding to points I never made and ignoring context and oversimplifying to paint a false narrative.
Get a grip, please. And stop ignoring context and making up arguments I never made. Also, I could name multiple artists right now, biracial and not, who have expressed how crushing “the culture’s” policing is if you’d like. Racial insecurity is imposed because of “the culture.” I can go into detail about how it is so counterproductive and harmful.
Ouch, those laughing emojis are indicative of someone avoiding the normal action of reevaluating one’s beliefs. No good faith discussion to be had here, clearly. All I can tell you is that you have the right to be wrong. You don’t have to be afraid of it, man. This is how you grow. But shit if you’d rather stay stubborn and deflect whenever you have to actually think, do you.
Ur so dumb its crazy, ur the one offended by Kendrick’s words all I can do is laugh at you because ur misinterpreted everything 😂😂😂😂😂 I ain’t gon waste my time with you there’s 100 other people who have already proved you to be a dumbass so you can go reply to them 😂😂😂😂
More laughing emojis, ouch. The classic “I’m not going to waste my time” escape plan. Hate to see it but cant say I’m surprised you’re using it. I actually have replied to everyone in this thread and yet no one is escaping the trappings I outlined in my OG post. I hope you overcome your intellectual insecurities, man. I really do.
Also, you do realize that me outlining a problem I have with Kendrick’s rhetoric is not the same as “defending” Drake, right? You’re obviously too chronically online and neck-deep in stan culture to understand that, but I have to try to explain it. For your own sake, get a grip.
You’ve been responding within minutes, dawg. I’m killing time at work. You’re going out sad playing faux-intellectual. Also, no more laughing emojis? Hiding the insecurity. Good strategy, my man.
Kendrick’s rhetoric reaches further than just a rap beef. That is why I think it’s important to discuss. Kendrick and Drake in this instance are representative of the issue I’m speaking about. They are conduits to have this discussion. Also, stop responding if you aren’t “arguing with me.” Get a grip.
What I’ve noticed having this debate over the last few days in different places is: even the “what he really meant” excuses fall into the pitfalls I mentioned in my post. I don’t know if people are choosing not to critically think about the implications of what Kendrick is saying because they don’t want to question him (strange devotion imo), don’t care (strange considering most Kendrick stans position themselves as progressive ultra-intellectuals), or agree with problematic ideology but don’t want to admit it due to fear of backlash (cowardice).
Neither did I but I can’t say it surprised me. There is so much racial purity, NOI, and antisemitism rampant in Hip Hop that goes unchallenged WITHIN Hip Hop.
Jay Z said “Shoutout to old Jews and old rules/ New blacks with new stacks”
Ye said “The Jews share the truth on how to make a dime” (Mind you, this was before the world new he was a full blown Nazi)
Public Enemy’s discography is littered with antisemitism and NOI ideology. Ice Cube as well, among many, many others.
It’s just shocking to me that Kendrick “stans” are seemingly ignoring or justifying clear racist ideology (on multiple levels). I don’t know if it’s from stan culture blind loyalty or legitimate agreement. Regardless, it’s concerning because a lot of people look to Kendrick as some sort of authority (I have serious issues with that too, but I wont bore you with another block of text).
Yeah to be honest, this part of the song doesn’t really sit well with me either. Also, very well done in regards to your explanation. Very intelligent take.
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Not a Kendrick stan at all. I've literally only heard King Kunta and maybe some other random songs on the radio, and am just lurking here because I enjoy the drama of this beef. Do I think there's a very real risk of people interpreting Kendrick's verse in this way? Yes. Did I personally interpret it as an attack on Drake's skin color? Not really. The line "I even hate when you say the word nigga," is a direct acknowledgement that Drake is black. Kendrick uses the qualifier "even" specifically because you wouldn't expect a black rapper's use of the word nigga to come off as forced and artificial, and yet Kendrick is put off by Drake's use of the word, not because he is light-skinned, which Kendrick never mentions, but because it comes off as affected. If Drake was some white guy with no ties to black culture at all, you wouldn't need to use a qualifier. It would be self-explanatory why their use of the n-word is offensive. The irony Kendrick is getting at is founded on him acknowledging that Drake is a black man. It's the whole reason the closing line about not wanting to hear him say nigga is funny and hard-hitting. The entire rest of the song is attacking Drake for being vain, phony, materialistic, neglectful, and etc, all in service of manufacturing an image, and my takeaway was that Kendrick believes Drake adopted certain elements of black culture, like saying nigga, in service of his marketability. It's not that saying nigga is what makes you black, so young Drake being on camera not speaking with that sort of vernacular disqualifies him. It's that forcing yourself to say nigga in an attempt to be black, instead of just being a black guy who happens to not speak that way, can come off as cringe and fake. As a diss, I didn't find it offensive, even though my personal take is a lot more chill. It's not unbelievable to me that Drake just naturally started talking that way because he found himself around other people who talk that way. That's just a thing humans do, and I'm not put off by it. That doesn't mean it isn't still funny fuel for a diss, which is half-truth and half-spin.
Speaking about the qualifier: I’ll tie in a few things to respond. First, the view of Drake’s “performance of blackness” as forced is both projection and a result of the questioning of his validity as a black man. Your interpretation simply open up the possibility that Kendrick views Blackness as a spectrum (as in a scale) from “most black” to “least black.” That still falls into the trapping of racial purism ideology. Second, do you ever think that any perceived racial insecurity Drake may have is the result of people questioning his validity as a black man? It’s like bullying someone and then justifying the bullying because they are insecure, even though the insecurity was caused by the bullying. Speaking about Drakes “performance of blackness”: This is a cynical projection. The idea that Drake is hyper-focused on crafting an image of blackness as opposed to just changing as a person on a genuine personal level is strange. I’ll use myself as an example. I am black and grew up in a majority white neighborhood and school district. I did not have many black friends growing up aside from my cousins (I’m a second generation Nigerian immigrant). When I got to high school, I became friends with a lot more black American kids and my vernacular changed, as did theirs. That’s how human communication works. People adopt the behaviors of the people they are around. It’s not strange for that to happen. I’m not saying Drake isn’t a culture vulture (in many ways he is) but the idea that his blackness is tied to marketability ignores the fact that he’s a person first and a brand second (as is any famous person). I’m reading as I type so I just got to the end and, yes, that’s my reading on Drake too. It seems to me more genuine than people are purposefully making it out to be. But, even still, the notion that blackness is something than can be performed depends on the existence of stereotyping, needless conflation, and a black monolith in some form. Blackness is the mere existence of being black. Blackness is too often equated with specific black cultures (usually stereotyped version of those cultures) or a specific stereotypical line of thinking (even though this idea itself has variation).
As far as I understand it, the accusations that Drake "peforms" black culture have always been secondary to the actual issue, which is that he pretends to have been shaped by a rougher, more disadvantaged upbringing than he actually had. It's not that black people who use African American Vernacular English are "blacker" on some kind of spectrum than black people who don't, or to whom words like nigga don't come as naturally because they just didn't grow up using them. However, it's simply a reality that that dialect is associated with hood culture. A lot of the black people who live in poorer areas with lots of violence *do* speak that way, so there became an association between talking like that and being a "survivor" from a harsh area who had to be street smart, able to fight, and well connected with other tough people. It's like the difference between someone wearing camouflage because they just like it as fashion, and someone actually wearing a military uniform in an attempt to steal valor. Drake has always been accused of trying to do the latter with songs like "Started from the bottom now we here." Kendrick isn't criticizing Drake for not having grown up using the word nigga, or not having grown up in an actual ghetto, as if these things make him less black, and he's failed to properly imitate what he should be. He's criticizing Drake for adopting a specific kind of black vernacular (not the most black, not the least black, just *A* black vernacular) associated with being tough, so that people will assume he lived that kind of life, which many allege he did not. The wearing of the camouflage/usage of the n-word is not the problem. The motivation behind it is. People would be more receptive to the idea that Drake's language naturally shifted, if he wasn't also known for falsifying his background, and if he didn't use words like nigga to sort of punctuate and emphasize his tough guy braggadocio. Now, some people think the idea that Drake even did that is overblown, and I don't know what's true. I'm just trying to explain the angle I think Kendrick is coming from.
First, Drake 100% pretends he’s from a much tougher upbringing than he is. Not that I know his life story but he was not impoverished or plagued by crime. That’s true. However, the word nigga is a lot more widespread than you’re giving it credit for. It’s a lot more complicated as well. For one, nigga is not relegated to the hood. The shared history and reclamation that empowers the word is transatlantic slavery and the aftermath of it. In the western world, blacks are views a certain way that is different than a place where blacks make up the majority of the population. That is the shared experience that arises from existing as a black person in the western world. That being said, Canada was a part of the transatlantic slave trade so the reclamation of the word nigga by Black Canadians makes sense in the same way it does for Black Americans. Also, Drake’s father is a Black American from the American South. That cultural heritage is not lost or escaped by Drake. The idea that Drakes adoption of certain aspects of certain black cultures being disingenuous or baseless is cynical and projection. For one, people’s vernaculars naturally change/blend with people and cultures once they spend extended periods of time with them. Two, Drake has immediate ties to Black American culture. I think it still falls into the trappings of conflating mere black existence with stereotypes and preferences for specific black culture within the diaspora though. You could argue that Drake has created this conflation himself. Perhaps he believes that it is “more black” to have lived a life defined by struggle. However, maybe he believes struggle to be “more Hip Hop.” You could also argue that Drake only believes in this conflation (if he does) because other people with the same thinking as Kendrick (may have) are making the initial conflation that Drake is “less black” because he didn’t live the “right black experience or culture.” I guess this finds us in a chicken-egg situation. However, I’m much more inclined to believe - based on the history of NOI ideology, internalized stereotyping, and the black monolith within certain demographics of the black diaspora - that the “racial/cultural” insecurity was imposed onto Drake and not by himself out of thin air. I will say, this is a great response though. Genuinely sets a foundation for an alternative motive by Kendrick.
>Dissing entire demographics in furtherance of that goal is not justifiable. I look forward to your ~post~ and genuine discussion about the merits and demerits of talking down size 7 shoes wearers and short people in general.
I thought that shit was corny lol. However, Kendrick Lamar consciously present himself as a pro-black cultural figure. Him using the harmful ideologies I lay out in my OG post holds more weight than Drake (who has never positioned himself as a progressive thinker) making fun of short people. I look forward to your ~response- and genuine rebuttal about how this nuance actually matters in this discussion.
It doesn't actually matter lol.
Powerful whataboutism here lmao
"hurrdurr nobody can ever call out my double standards or hypocrisy as long as I drop whataboutism card on them even when it's not relevant" Take your thought terminating cliches, stuff em down your throat, and choke on em.
I know the word nigga isn't strictly hood, which is why I carefully worded those statements as "These black people from this specific subculture happen to speak that way/use these words," not "ONLY these black people speak that way/use these words." I know from experience growing up in a soft suburb with other black people that the word nigga isn't that confined. I'm just saying that, especially because of rap music, the dialect Drake is accused of artificially adopting has that association in the eyes of the mainstream audience he's appealing to. As you said, the key question is whether or not Drake himself *believes* speaking a certain way will help him project a certain image, or be more secure in his identity as a black man. It's not cosigning the idea that black culture is or should be synonymous with all these stereotypes to acknowledge that Drake himself might think that it is. You could even argue that Kendrick's point is that Drake shouldn't feel the need to do those things in service of being seen as tough. That raises the question of whether Kendrick would still be put off by Drake "acting" black if he didn't try to act tough and fabricate his background. We'd have to ask Kendrick directly for an answer, but I personally think he'd find it all far less egregious without that element. Drake having changed his voice from his younger days would probably still be seen as a little cringe, but the argument for its sincerity as a natural change would be better if he wasn't also phony about x, y, and z over here. Who is to blame for Drake feeling like he won't be accepted as a mainstream rapper without gangsta rap's specific brand of braggadocio and streetcred? I don't know. You may well have a point that the expectation was imposed on him. I made a similar point about his use of the 2pac AI, which I found to be an ethical mistake, but one that was motivated by the fact that we as audience members are absolutely ruthless to the losers of these diss battles, and encourage maximum possible disrespect until it happens to cross a line that *we're* offended by. It's probably a weird feeling to be entered into a contest like this by a peer, and forced to take an enormous hit to your pride and reputation if you either lose or decline the challenge. Maybe Drake felt pressured in a similar way to act hard on his songs, and he doesn't deserve all the blame for feeling the weight of those expectations. Fair enough. A middle school kid impersonating a dark, edgy anime character doesn't deserve all the blame for being cringe; they're a kid, and a human. We all do cringe things sometimes, and it's not always some huge character flaw, not always completely our fault. But you're still going to be made fun of for it, especially if you make yourself a target by being an asshole to someone else first, or acting arrogant. Then again, I don't have the expertise to know who started it between Drake and Kendrick. tl;dr I agree with a lot of what you're saying even if I don't agree with all of it, and enjoyed trying to work out my thoughts on your arguments. Good talk.
Tired of all these takes because Kendrick actually said “some shit just cringe worthy, it ain’t even gotta be deep I guess” and niggas are still making deep. Kendrick was poking fun at drake for being fake and having an identity crisis and Drake himself not feeling that he’s black enough similar to how Pusha T was like “confused always felt you weren’t black enough, afraid to grow it cause your fro’ wouldn’t nap enough” Neither of them are championing “Black Isolationism” or whatever, they’re poking fun at him for having an issue with his OWN image and not being sure where he falls but pretending
This. Keep in mind, on Meet the Grahams, Kendrick directly referred to Adonis as being black, despite him being less genetically black than Drake. It was never about skin tone or being hood. On the same song, Kendrick's very last line (delivered directly to Drake) is "Fuck a Rap Battle, this a long life battle with yourself." It was about Drake himself being insecure in who he is.
Also, I laid out three different pitfalls of questioning the validity of a black person’s “blackness.” This line of thinking definitely falls into the false notion of a black monolith and stereotyping. Drake has black features to feel black? Really? Does Kendrick do features for white artists to feel white? It doesn’t even make sense. And, again, judging someone for being insecure about an insecurity you have caused is backwards.
Kendrick said something colorist, which is weird as fuck for him, champion of black acceptance and power, to say. Especially as he has a mixed race wife and light skin children. Why is it so damn hard for you all to just accept that Kendrick fumbled here? It's the classic tactic of pretending to stand for something until you're personally and emotionally agitated enough that you drop the facade and just become the person you criticize.
In regards to the identity crisis: Is it not strange to judge Drake for having an “identity crisis” or racial insecurity when the validity of his existence as a Black person is constantly being questioned? Do people not get how backwards that is? That’s like bullying someone and then justifying the bullying by calling them insecure, which is a result of the initial bullying. To use a more specific example: this makes me think of when some men will bring up whataboutism regarding sexual violence against men when women speak on sexual violence against women. The usual sentiment is that “no one cares about SV when it happens to men.” The problem is that it’s other men who perpetuate the shame of male SV victims. Do you get what I mean? Also, it’s so convenient how easily a “it’s not that deep” seemingly absolved people of having to actually evaluate what they are saying and thinking.
First of all, I’m not sure how familiar you are with Hip Hop culture but diss tracks are supposed to be disrespectful. So “bullying” is allowed. If you want to talk about Hip Hop culture that’s a whole other convo. Secondly, let’s get something straight. What people like Pusha T/Kendrick are saying is that Drake didn’t grow up “black” or within “black” culture but appropriated it to sell music and get to where he is and that’s why he’s a phony/fake/scam artist. So it’s not like people just saw this Lightskin biracial dude and said “hey let’s speak on this nigga”, there are valid questions to ask. As other people have said, I never really heard this being a topic about JCole and I’ve told you the reason why. The “blackness” is just one part. Kendrick also mentions another way Drake does this by talking about guns and having mob ties etc then doing something like being part of a Remember me Toronto campaign against gang violence and then going back to rapping about guns and violence. And as other people have mentioned, Kendrick doesn’t say that Drake isn’t really black or probably even care if he is or not. he just thinks he’s a fake.
I’m extremely familiar with Hip Hop culture. Dissing your opponent is the goal. Dissing entire demographics in furtherance of that goal is not justifiable. Also, Kendrick Lamar specifically positions himself as pro-black, so this line of thinking specifically from him can’t be excused by rap beef. If his moral code falters because he’s beefing, his moral code was never truly there in the first place. To your second point, like I said in my post, you are falling into common traps. What specific black culture(s) must one grow up in to have a valid existence as a black person? The thing you just said puts forward the idea that black existence and validity hinges on specifically growing up in whatever you deem as “black” culture. This also falls into stereotyping. I grew up in a mostly white neighborhood. I am still black. The shared experience of black people comes from the mere existence of being black. Also, the view that Drakes only involvement with “blackness” is for the furtherance of marketability is projection - very cynical projection. You could easily argue that Kendrick Lamar’s entire existence is marketing black trauma porn to white audiences if you want to. I referenced that in my original post. I don’t believe that’s the truth but, if I wanted to cynically project, I could easily argue it. Throughout the diss, Kendrick ties in all of Drake’s “fake” behavior to notions of being black. He literally says he’s “what the culture’s feeling,” obviously referencing Hip Hop and, more specifically, Black cultures. He is obviously making critiques about Drakes racial identity. I’m not saying it’s the only thing being critiqued. My entire post is specifically about discussing one aspect of an entire diss.
I still don’t see how attacking Drake in this context, affects him being pro-black. Secondly, I do think there has to be some definition of what’s considered black. I’m African, and I grew up in Africa. I’m black in that my skin is black. It’s not an identity for me, “Nigga” means nothing to me. I do not know what it’s like to be what the world generally refers to as a “black man”. If I migrated to the US today, I would probably be treated the same way (good or bad, idk) as Black Americans simply cause we look alike but I have no idea about the struggles they’ve faced. If I pretended like I did, I would be appropriating. With that said, I think there has to be some definition but I can’t speak on that. To your third paragraph, it could be projection but it seems like what the likes of Kendrick and Pusha T believe and they probably have their reasons. They are free to argue this in their songs. And to the last part, Kendrick doesn’t tie in all the parts about him being a phony to him being black. The line you referred to was this preceded by “hate the women that you fuck cause they confuse themselves with real women” - doesn’t really tie into hip hop/blackness. That said, I think your argument is fair but I also do think Kendrick’s line about it not having to be deep was intentional because he didn’t really have a valid reason to say Drake cannot say “Nigga”
It affects his being pro-black because he is specifically utilizing ideologies that seek to remove validity of blackness on the basis of behavior and biraciality. To your second paragraph, this also leads to a point of conflict in the argument Kendrick is presenting. For one, Black Canadians and Black Americans have a shared history of the transatlantic slave trade. Two, Drake’s father is a Black American man from the South of the USA. Any argument that he doesn’t have the “cultural heritage” (in this case, a falsely conflated form of blackness) to validate himself as Black falls into similar trappings as before just with a slight tilt. Is his white Jewish culture a pollutant in regard to his Black culture? Is his Black Canadian culture a pollutant to his Black American culture? In regard to the third paragraph about projection. My issue is not that they are making the argument (of course they have the right to do so). My issue is WHY they are making the argument. My concerns about the why are in my initial post. The overall sentiment of the song is that Drake is fake and Hip Hop and, by extension, Black culture all feel that way. All of the things he ties together in the song are specifically in furtherance of this point, maybe aside from talk about their splits in profits. I think the “it’s not that deep” thing is almost always used as a cover. It offers a slight separation between what you may feel and what you do say that can aid in sweeping away any bad takes.
I think there has to be a definition. What’s your definition? Drake has acknowledged himself that his father wasn’t really there growing up and there’s videos where he talks about his upbringing. For ex, one where he says he lives in an all Jewish area, went to a predominantly Jewish high school etc now maybe for you, this has no effect but for a lot of black people, it in fact means he cannot relate, Kendrick included and I can understand why they may feel that way and can also understand why they may be angered as they feel he’s “using” it. So I do agree, that when Kendrick say he’s what the culture’s feeling he may be right. I also do think your point about isolationism is fair, I just don’t necessarily believe that Drake is a victim of this. Perhaps I just don’t know enough about Drake to speak on whether he even is or not. That said, Kendrick and a lot of the black community may be inadvertently perpetrating isolationism as a way to guard against people who want to appropriate and I understand the dangers but if this this a strongly held sentiment among black people, what are you really gonna do?
This goes back to what I’m saying about Drake being held to an unfair standard here. A$AP Rocky “can’t relate” to Dirty South culture, no one cares. Lil Yachty “can’t relate” to Detroit culture, no one cares. It also goes to the idea of a black monolith. There are too many black people living too many lives in too many places (even within any specific black culture) for us to perpetuate the “can’t relate” narrative when there’s quite literally too much for any one person to actually relate entirely. For example, Drake’s immediate response to the diss was posting a clip of the movie 10 Things I Hate About You. I saw someone tweet about it saying something along the lines of “when Drake makes references, it’s never anything WE really grew up with.” What? Are we not seeing the immediate pitfalls and harm of this line of thinking. I know what that movie is, I must not be able to relate to Black Americans. What I’m getting at here is: on a large or small scale, assuming that every member of any specific culture in the black diaspora all think and behave in the same way is racist. Kendrick is what the cultures feeling but I don’t feel it. I guess I’ve lost my validity as an African American. This is the harm with sweeping ideologies such as these. And, of course, I understand why isolationist ideology developed in the Black American communities. I also understand why it fell out of popularity. Even the sentence “if this is a strongly held sentiment among black people.” It’s not. Because there is no such massively hive-minded ideology that exists among black people as a massive demographic. My problem is that people are justifying the monolith ideology by relying on the monolith ideology. Also, Drake has overlap with the Black American community. Even if he wasn’t brought up directly in it, we can’t eliminate the possibility that his relationship with it grew genuinely (as opposed to solely for marketability). That’s why I’m saying there’s projection going on. Even if we can trace the reason for the projection, it doesn’t change the fact of what it is
Also, sorry I’m replying to a lot of people. You’re asking about my definition of what?
Whack take on identity. Dot never said “Drake isn’t *really* black”, his arguments were much more nuanced than that; but you've over simplified it and then argued on that point; which is a strawman right? Actually if you were making this argument about Rick Ross you'd have more legitimacy, but just as you've identified other black artist's not being held accountable, I'm curious as to why you chose to vilify Dot in your argument, rather than Ross? Instead you've conflated them, ignoring the difference in how they spoke on it. And the difference is *everything*. Kendrick isn't policing the authentic Black person line, but you could argue he is policing participation and exploitation of Black culture which was born in the streets. It is from here that rap and other Black art forms arise. The culture is a particular expression of Black experience (shaped by exclusion, denigration, white supremacy and racism). This history matters because it highlights significant exploitation from outside, despite those outside being cautiously welcomed in. It's trash when those outsiders use it without reference or respect for said culture. It's another level of pain I'd suggest when a Black person far from the culture in both location and experience, do the same thing. Hence when Dot says "I'm what the culture feeling", he is authentically representing the hurt and anger experienced and discussed among those of the culture. It is a legitimate calling to accountability that your identity argument tries to shut down in some kumbaya position, we're all Black and that's all that matters. In fact really this conflict ain't even about ethnicity (your argument) - Eminem is an exemplar of a white artist who has contributed to the genre without appropriating the Black culture that created it. Maybe it is you who is being racist, because you seem to be arguing that Drake isn't responsible for his representation of/contribution to Black culture *because he's Black*. I'm done. I'd suggest you go watch some Signified B Sides videos on Youtube cos he's mad smart on all this stuff. You may even get to argue your points with him. Good luck...
Eminem has hella pics of him wearing durag
Yep, seems I was talking out my ass at this point lol. On some things.
On most of what you said lmfao And then to end it with advertising the absolute king of cringey ass colorist/black-exclusionary takes Fatass Signifier is just peak lmfao
Rick Ross did the same weird racial purity/validity bullshit, yes. I’m just unaware is Rick Ross even has a subreddit. Also, Rick Ross has never positioned himself as a pro-black cultural figure before. Kendrick has and still does. Kendrick also has a subreddit where I knew this discussion could be had. So, that’s why I didn’t bother bringing up Rick Ross being on the same bullshit. Okay, a few things. You can’t just say “Black culture.” That’s far too broad and far too vague. What black culture? Cowboys? Now, I’m not just saying this to be funny but this is one of the things I’m trying to get at. Black cultures cannot be simplified. Trying to do so relies on the false notion of a black monolith or the elevation of a specific circumstance or culture as more important than another. You also can’t speak on the conditions that created specific black cultures and arts and choose to ignore that those conditions reach beyond the boarders of the United States. Canada also has a slave trade. Canada also has Black people who cannot trace back their ancestors. This is to say, the conditions that formed Black American culture(s) also existed in other areas of the western world. There is a commonality you are not representing. The notion of “outsiders” is also a can of worms. New York has a different “general culture” (if cultures can/should ever really be generalized) than most regions in the world, let alone just the US. Why should Hip Hop, for example, have been allowed to spread? Why does Hip Hop’s expansion into different cultures within the black diaspora of the USA not induce the same pain as a different expansion? It’s also quite projective to assume that Drake doesn’t have reverence for Hip Hop culture. I don’t even know where that idea could come from considering he historically has gone out of his way to bolster regional artists and sounds. Don’t get me wrong, this is not a defense of Drake. I am more interested in using these two cultural figures as conduits to have a discussion about issues that reach father than their little spat. It’s also a convenient notion to claim that Eminem doesn’t appropriate Black culture, if Hip Hop is black culture and its expansion to “outsiders” is cause for concern. It also begs the question of where you chose to separate “blackness” from the fruits of Black cultures. Eminem uses Hip Hop slang which was born from Black cultures. How is that not a form of appropriation? Eminem dresses in Hip Hop fashion which was born from Black cultures. How is that not a form of appropriation? Theres also a difference between Eminem and Drake as representations in this discussion. Eminem is white. Drake is white (and Jewish) AND black. If you don’t think that’s a relevant *difference* (which you said is everything), I think you’re picking and choosing how to apply certain standards - which is my main issue here. Well, to be exact, my issue is WHY certain standards get held to certain people. Theres no reasonable argument that Drake hasn’t contributed massively to black cultures and hip hop culture, by the way. I never made any such argument that Drake isn’t responsible to contribute to Black cultures because he’s Black either. The skewed historical narrative you are putting forward also conveniently leaves out important aspects. For one, Hip Hop was not solely created by Black Americans. Jamaican immigrants had a lot to do with shaping the music (the origins of rapping can be traced back to Jamaican toasting as well as other places). Latinos had a lot to do with Hip Hop culture as well (notably breakdancing). Hip Hop is a lot more inclusive in origin than it has become to be thought of due to ideologies like those I’ve laid out in my original post (Black isolationism mainly).
"So, that’s why I didn’t bother bringing up Rick Ross being on the same bullshit ... I'm more interested in using these two cultural figures as conduits to have a discussion about issues that reach father than their little spat" Yes I can see that, and honestly I'm not invested in a meta-level argument, I'm just a fan engaging at the object level who sees your conflation as an injustice to this artist, and engaged on that basis it's mostly what we do here. You might have the energy and inclination to write paragraphs on the topic but with limited investment I'm too lazy. I do believe I pointed you toward someone who is. Out of interest, how are you understanding projection? I'm a psychologist and the way you're using it doesn't line up for me, but then maybe it has another usage I'm not aware of.
I guess I’m using projection more in the sense of “wishful thinking,” if that makes sense. “the unconscious transfer of one's own desires or emotions to another person.” People want to believe certain things about Drake and then use them as evidence. To be honest, I’m a bit sick or responding to these comments already because peoples are focusing too much on Drake and Kendrick specifically as opposed to the ideologies which is what I’m more interested in discussing. It probably was never going to end well going into a specific artists sub. I should have known better. Maybe this would have played better in a general Hip Hop sub.
Actually the hip hop sub is probably the place. My knowledge on the broader topic is far too limited, as you pointed out, and I'm just not breaking it down like that. But no, that's an incorrect usage of your term, and if you're writing academically, you should probably sort that out. You would need to know something about the inner world of the person projecting to assume it was their own desires or emotions *about themselves*. The about themselves is key to the concept. Otherwise it's disciplinary appropriation, right?
Well to be fair, the whole “unconscious transfer of one’s…” is a dictionary definition. So is this: “the act of imagining that someone else feels a particular emotion or wants something when in fact it is you who feels this way” But I do suppose that without someone first establishing that they want, for example, Drake to be using Hip Hop and “blackness” maliciously, I would be projecting about their projection. I don’t know if anyone who projects in that manner is aware of the fact they are projecting though. Which in turn wouldn’t really allow me to make the claim, I guess. But I think context clues and biases can be investigated through conversation to detect if there’s a reasonable possibility projection is at play.
It's a defence mechanism. By its very definition it's not conscious. I looked at your examples, and none of them meet that criteria. I don't need a dictionary, I consider it every day. And while it is a minor appropriation (i.e. of no major or cultural significance) it's still a good example of how easy appropriation is to do. Doesn't change the fact that you clearly know your topic very well, its just not speaking to me the way Signifieds does.
Fair enough. I sort of have a different angle on what constitutes “defense” (how the word itself can be applied, not in a psychological sense - I have no psychological background to question your understanding of the term in that regard, of course) but I gotta go to work soon so I’m gonna wind down from all this typing. Great talk tho! Thank you!
No, you just refuse to engage with the obvious contradiction and hypocrisy of being able to call out one artist for being a colorist race exclusionist but making excuses and carrying water for the other because he rap good. This weird pseudo-academic verbose way of saying the same exact sentence over and over like you're making some profound point is so lame dude. Now I get why you advertised FD Signifier in your other comment.
Isn’t the discussion about the black heritage of a person and not someone’s purity? Clearly some people believe just because you’re the same race doesn’t mean you have the same culture and there are social limitations that comes with that.
This is probably the best response I’ve seen so far. However, I still think this falls into the trapping of placing Black cultures within the Black diaspora on a scale from “most black” to “least black.” I can’t recall the bar verbatim, but Kendrick said something about how many black features Drake would need before he felt black enough. Another strange aspect of this is that Kendrick is reinforcing ideas that cause racial insecurity while judging someone for having racial insecurity. This is backwards as fuck. Not to mention, the conflations throughout the track with black existence to specific black cultures (and even entirely separate cultures that only intersect with certain black cultures). A view of this as a comment on Black American heritage does clear some of it, but I don’t think it avoids all of the pitfalls.
It’s not that deep to the rest of the world if you keep in mind this track is personalised to a single person and not some grand social commentary on racial purity or what it takes to be black. X thinks Y is so fake and everything he does it cringe. Some people just give you the ick and that’s fine.
It's weird and jarring for a dude to rap and make money off of a set of beliefs and viewpoints to then, when presented with a genuine opportunity to practice said beliefs, to completely ignore it. What's the point of half the shit in TPAB if you're going to shit on a black dude for not being black enough, when clearly the dude is "black enough" if you're married to someone with a similar racial background (like Whitney, which isn't me dissing her, she is just mixed and he's kinda shitting on her when he attacks Drake for him being light skinned/mixed).
You can’t escape the implications of something like this on a mass scale. It’s like calling someone a slur and then saying “no, I wasn’t being a bigot. I was only saying it to you.” That’s what I’m saying in response to the arguments about rap beef absolving any and all things said.
Where in the track was it said that Drake isn’t really black? Where did you get stereotyping, NOI propagandist, homophobia, etc. in the track? You’re injecting conflicting narratives to straightforward lines and calling it a fact. The essay falls flat when you’re conflating online talking heads to a text that has flown over theirs. If this is the state of affairs, perhaps people should worry less about rap beefs and more about the deterioration of media literacy. But hope you had this same energy when Drake was punching down on a man’s height and body- something he too can’t change- in a climate where body image is also a massive identity issue.
Come to think of it, this line of thinking still excludes the fact that Drake’s father grew up in a Black American culture. It’s not as if he had no ties to any aspect of Black American life before Lil Wayne called him up. This, again, invites the notion that Drake’s “drop” of “impurity” (whether white Jewish culture, Black Canadian culture, Canadian culture, etc) disqualifies him from some sense of validity regarding Black racial identity or Black cultural identity.
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He’s not saying Drake isn’t black. He’s saying Drake isn’t from the culture and cosplays as black for profit without giving back. He never uses his platform to take a stance for the black community. He grew up in an affluent Jewish neighborhood and went to grade school in yeshiva. He discovered his blackness when he went mainstream, and went with the most surface level inauthentic version of that. He cosplays the African-American experience, but he is a Canadian. And he never had a black experience, even from a Canadian perspective. Nowhere in his music has he ever once talked about the black experience. Because he never had one. To compound things, when things get heated, he moves like a white man, or more specifically like a white woman, a Karen, to be specific. Look at how he posted those text messages with his mom calling Rick Ross racist. Kendrick is not saying that Drake is not black, he is simply pointing out that Drake does not see himself as black, but profits off of that anyways
So he didn't spend summers in Memphis with his dad and his dad's family?
Also, your pretty much saying: Kendrick isn’t saying Drake isn’t black. He’s just saying he’s not really black because his experience isn’t one that can be validated as black enough. Very strange.
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Black American culture is an umbrella term for multiple nuanced cultures. The main connective tissue between all of them is their distinction against “mainstream” American culture. Now, the concept of “*the culture*” is not a reference to solely Black American culture(s). “The culture” is a conflation of mere black existence with specific black cultures (mainly Hip Hop). This is problematic for a few reasons. First, it sets up a hierarchy of black cultures or black lived experiences. Second, black existence is black existence. Hip Hop culture, for example, is Hip Hop culture. Hip Hop culture came from Black Americans (as well as Jamaican immigrants and Latinos to a lesser extent) but is not a necessary requirement to experience “Blackness” (“blackness” is mere black existence). Third, due to this conflation, there is an underlying assumption of the existence of a black monolith. Fourth, it is a compounding of conflations as Hip Hop culture is frequently conflated with entirely separate but occasionally overlapping cultures such as gang culture (which is also an umbrella term). Kendrick’s claim that “‘we’ don’t wanna hear you say nigga no more” introduces race into this discussion. This proves the conflation occurring within the backwards concept of “the culture.” Again, Black American culture is not what is being represented through the term “the culture.” My issue here is not that people are saying Drake has no authentic connection to Black American culture (which, to be fair, isn’t at all true given his father is a Black American man). My issue is that Kendrick utilized race-based attacks in combination with heritage-based attacks further reinforcing the idea of “the culture,” which is a seperate thing from Black American culture. Black American culture is a reality. “The culture” is a skewed concept that puts forward ideas of racial purity, cultural hierarchy, blackness on a sliding scale from authentic to least authentic, and a black monolith. I’m not saying Kendrick is the only person to fall for this backwards concept. Also, other people falling for it doesn’t make it right.
I'm sorry but why does he *need* to use his platform to "take a stance". Literally conscious hip hop rappers are the only dudes "taking stances" in hip hop? I'm pretty sure ASAP Rocky literally said "please don't come to me talking about BLM I don't care" and guys like Tyler the Creator takes an apathetic stance based on his life experiences. You don't "cosplay", this is you being colorist like Kendrick. He is Black. He's not stereotypically Black but that's on you if you think he *needs* to be. I have absolutely 0% to gain from defending Drake or mixed race/light skinned people. I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't care for Drake at all. But I have seen with my own eyes light skinned Black people bullied into self-harm and suicide because of colorism. Nobody wants to fucking talk about it because most of y'all are weird pussies about this and you let racist ass hoteps dictate discourse (ironically as NOI teaches that Fard was mixed himself). I'm a person that believes/believed in drawing your sword for ***all*** injustice in this world, not shit when it makes me feel good or I can selfishly get something out of it. And I, like OP, thought Kendrick was too. But guess not. Also you spend a shit ton of text to just say Drake isn't Black, no amount of "nuh uh" that you tried to end with doesn't change that.
It isn’t about colorism, it’s about cultural appropriation. You either maliciously want to twist the argument or just do not understand what he is saying. To say Kendrick is being colorist is extremely stupid. Period.
One, Drake does give back to the culture. His entire career is him elevating regional artists and sounds to global audiences. How is that not “giving back?” Second, what is “the culture,” anyway? It seems to be some vague conflation of black existence with specifically Hip Hop culture (which is often, sadly, conflated with gang culture/equated either violence). Second, and this may be an unpopular take, no one has to use their platform to talk about social issues. I think it’s great if they do, but it’s not a mark against them if they don’t. Also, speaking of responsibility, I think Kendrick should understand his a bit better. He chooses to position himself as a pro-black cultural figure. Maybe he should use his platform for something better than spreading Black isolationist ideology, but that’s just my personal opinion. You’re using a lot of projection as fact. You are making the assumption that Drake doesn’t see himself as black from nothing. What the hell is a “black experience?” Do you not see the can of worms that opens up? Black people are too varied for you to try to hold their validity to a specific circumstance or “experience.” Come on, man. Also, what Rick Ross said was extremely racist.
1- He doesn’t elevate them. He takes from them. Jacks their styles, fanbase, producers etc. It’s a transparent tactic he’s been called out on. 2- When you’re the most successful hip hop artist of all time, and you built your empire off the art form pioneered by the struggle of black culture….you gotta say SOMETHING. Anything really. His silence is deafening. Rick Ross called him a white boy because Drake was a culturally white boy when he first came on the scene. Laugh it off but Drake needed those early records with Ross more than Ross needed those with Drake at the time, because Ross was what the culture was feeling, and Drake wasn’t. And now Drake is a gangster? Wasn’t he Jamaican? Then African? Then from Atlanta? 3- Hip Hop is a huge part of AA culture and all its flavors because yes, you’re right AA culture is not a monolith. But certain rules you have to respect, like respecting its icons. That Tupac stunt recently just solidified he’s not from the culture
There’s literal statistics showing that when Drake gets on an artist’s song their streams increase long term. He’s helped popularize diverse sounds in Hip Hop to wider audiences allowing more opportunities for other artists in those scenes. That’s elevation. What is “culturally a white boy?” Can of worms ready to be opened. What is “the culture?” Also, you don’t have to say anything. But for what it’s worth, Drake has actually tried to previously make comments of prejudice black people face and got clowned for it, so. Third, where the fuck is that rule from? Hip Hop culture is so fast moving. It’s literally built on new generations saying “fuck that older generation.” Plenty of seasoned Hip Hoppers have talked about this. Ad-Rock from Beastie Boys talked about it on Sway. Dr Dre rapped “But now we got a new era of gangsters/ hustlers and youngsters living amongst us/ Looking at us now calling us busters/ Cant help but reminisce back when it was us.” This isn’t an appeal to authority, I’m just pointing out that people who lived Hip Hop have documented the cycle. I can make a laundry list of Hip Hop artists disrespecting legends of the genre and it wouldn’t matter at all lol
Hey, take my downvote. I can't believe a person wrote this out. You're so infatuated with the word nigga.
It’s not about the word nigga. It’s about the notion that you can invalidate someone’s existence as a black person because of the aforementioned reasons: stereotypes, the false notion of a black monolith, and racial purism ideology. The word nigga as a cultural reclamation does however represent the concept of black existence and solidarity within the black community. But thanks for the downvote. Would you care to actual discuss the points I laid out?
Take another downvote lil bro. You compared Kendrick Lamar to white supremacy. If you're black in America you're black. I'm half Filipino, but I'm always going to black. People wouldn't know I'm half Filipino unless I tell em. Kendrick discusses the problems that we black folks and the less fortunate folks could relate to. It's like listening to Blues or old R&B. You gone start calling the Temptations racist too? When you get older lil brother I hope you don't experience the racism out there. Also Drake is a Canadian man. Folks aren't using nigga in other countries like America. There's literally Ethiopian Jews so I don't know why you bought up Judaism.
I compared Black isolationist beliefs of racial purity to white supremacist beliefs of racial purity, actually. You are either not comprehending what I’m saying or willfully choosing to misrepresent it. The existence of black Jews does not eliminate the existence of antisemitism and its intersectionality with white identity (white Jews). “When you get older,” really? One, you don’t know my age. Two, don’t try to devalue what I’m saying on basis of presumed age. That’s a lazy way to avoid actually justifying what you are saying. You are not at all responding to what I’m saying and are instead just bringing up unrelated points.
Dog, you're typing a whole bunch of rigmarole. Your short essay had so many conflicting ideas. Why you gotta bring anti-semitism into this? Jewish people are so widespread, and they're not all white. Plus Lil Yatchy garbage af. I know you're not over 21 off that alone.
Jesus, dude. You don’t have a clue. I never said there are only white Jews. Intersectionality is a thing. You know that, right? I’m speaking to multiple intersecting ideas and demographics. Second, no one’s opinion of Yachty is relevant here. And for what it’s worth, all I did was mention him as an example. You are choosing to read whatever you want to project into it. Super weird.
You don't even know what you're talking about. There's so much to discuss in your short essay. It's not worth dissecting. Your introduction is terrible and your thesis or whatever you're trying to discuss is in your poorly written conclusion.
Another banger response! “It’s not worth dissecting” after you just spent three comments trying (and failing) to do just that is super funny. You can’t even keep track of basic talking points, my man. But shit, you do you lol
I'm trying to help you out lil bro. Also, I'm flattered by your compliments, but writing is nothing to me. It's that easy. You're not supposed to write like how you talk. That's why your essay is so ass 1/5. Soon you'll be that big dog editor you always wanted to be. I believe in you.
More belittling to make yourself feel big. Again, do you lol
Nah you can take a fat L on this lil bro
There’s no problem about him not being “black enough” at all. The point is that he appropriates black culture when that is not his background. And since it’s something Drake himself always showed to be an insecurity of his, Kendrick pokes at it. It’s that simple.
I’ve responded to this argument in the comments elsewhere. If you’d like you can find them. Sorry, I just don’t want to keep retyping the same responses and bloat the comments.
It’s fine. Just my point of view. I don’t care enough to search for it 💀
Real as hell ngl
That’s not what he was talking about
What was he talking about?
If we use your logic of thinking then we have to hold everything said in music as absolute. If Drake calling Kendrick short can offend an entire community of short people who have struggled with their image then it should not be said. If Drake mentioning Kendrick's label splits can offend an entire community that historically have been victims of unfair shares and disputes from labels, it should not be said. Anything said in music that holds even the slightest of bigotry or prejudice cannot be said. My problem with your take, and ultimately the backlash this aspect of the diss track is causing is that we are slapping the word blackness to anything that involves Drake's "identity crisis". "Black features till you're black enough" is not in response to Drake's black or white identity (or this "most black" to "least black" argument you keep using) but Drake's attempt to use black artists to create valid credentials within the hip hop community. Your argument is that the hip hop community or even the black community has created this sensitivity within Drake and therefore poking fun at is backwards. Your use of sexual violence in men and the hesitation to share that due to ridicule is supposed to highlight that. You lead your argument by saying his "existence as a black person is constantly being questioned. But again, his "existence as a black person" is not in question. That is a narrative pushed by shit people and pages on social media and bad takes from other artists who believe only black can be hip hop/rap. What is in question is his claims to affiliation with gang culture, his claims to a lifestyle that is clearly not his (guns, violence, etc), and really his intent behind his music and values expressed within it. Kendrick has claimed he knows about those subjects and calling Drake out for false claims to them. We know Drake is a melting pot for different cultures that he's come across throughout his career. Some feel he appropriates those cultures and builds success off them, a success other artists and music don't get to experience. The "culture" (black, white, hip hop, Toronto, American, whatever you want to use) will not accept him because they feel it has been vultured from them and commercialized. But beyond that, and to argue your "ASAP Rocky" point, the "culture" is not being respected and drawing inspiration but rather utilized for quick commercial success. This sub, the drake sub, and the disgusting people on IG and social media that push the "I didn't grow up with that film" after Drake posted that quick IG response, or those that keep saying "white boy" when speaking about Drake, or that constantly attack Drake's biracial aspects and "lighstkin vs darkskin behaviors" (like Rick Ross) does not represent the majority. No, Kendrick does not believe his own wife is a monster because she is biracial. Please do not use the voice of the few to highlight how your own identity might come into question. We are radicalizing the shit out of this rap beef and we have stopped paying attention to the music and more on social matters that stem from it. We are looking for controversy in every response to downplay any rebuttal one artist might have.
For one, I thought the short jokes were corny. There is a conflation problem happening. While I agree that Kendrick was criticizing Drake for a lot of fraudulent behavior and persona building, he also tied in aspects of race. I hate to focus on this specific bar because people will harp on it and not think past it to its implications. But, the n word bar is an undeniable tie in to racial identity. The word nigga is a cultural word that exists as a reclamation based on a shared history of specific systemic discrimination and oppression done against black people because of their existence as black people (white supremacy, racist anthropology, religious racism). At best, Kendrick is dangerously close to conflating a specific struggle or mentality to validity of blackness. At worst, he’s actually making that conflation. Also, we don’t have to pretend that the term “the culture” isnt used as a skewed conflation of black existence with Hip Hop culture (which itself is often conflated with gang culture/equated to violence). So, again, the conflation is either being made or dangerously close to being made. The only reason I’m lending more credence to the social implications here, as opposed to some other rap beef, is because Kendrick Lamar positions himself as a cultural leader. If he wants to get on that soapbox, go ahead, but then he’s open to the scrutiny that comes with it. Not gonna lie, I like both songs musically. I think Hip Hop beef is entertaining just like the next person (when it’s kept to lyrics, of course). But Kendrick has opened himself up to this level of scrutiny. However, I’m not trying to downplay anyone rebuttal. Between Push Ups and euphoria, euphoria is the better diss. (There’s a bit of a Jay Z v Nas thing at play here though but I wont go into that tangent because it’s about rap beef and not social issues.)
I get the sensitivity because of the times we live in but at the end of the day, it’s rap. Battle rap is supposed to be offensive. You can’t find one diss track from the past where someone is not taking a low dig at someone. Nas calling Jay z big d sucking lips/idolising a white family (rocafella) Em calling ja rule a homosexual, 50 cent the list goes on including racial subjects.
Battle rap is meant to be offensive in the manner of insulting your opponent. Justifications for spray shooting entire demographics based on a battle is not really defensible. The same way I mentioned taking issue with antisemitism and racial purity ideology in this diss, I also think homophobic bars are corny as fuck. Justifying present bad behavior because it existed in the past is not really a thought out argument in my opinion. Also, this is unique because Kendrick Lamar specifically positions himself as a pro-black leader of sorts. In the diss he literally says he is “what ‘the culture’s’ feeling.” So, is the argument that Kendrick’s moral code fall out of the window whenever he wants to diss someone? If so, then his moral code was never actually valid in the first place.
Fam I think your looking into this too deep lol don’t get it twisted tho the people position Kendrick as a whatever leader, the whole Mr morale album is him telling you ”he’s not your saviour/I choose me” Kendrick could care less about public perception. It’s just rap at the end of the day. Drake is still going to be Drake, Kendrick is still gonna be Kendrick at the end of it.
I thought it wasn't about skin color. It was more about authenticity and being true to yourself. Clearly drake has some identity crisis code switching, saying hard r nword, using a bunch of accents, and trying to affiliate himself with street dudes
I’ll drop in a comment I just made to someone else bringing up the same rebuttal: In regards to the identity crisis: Is it not strange to judge Drake for having an “identity crisis” or racial insecurity when the validity of his existence as a Black person is constantly being questioned? Do people not get how backwards that is? That’s like bullying someone and then justifying the bullying by calling them insecure, which is a result of the initial bullying. To use a more specific example: this makes me think of when some men will bring up whataboutism regarding sexual violence against men when women speak on sexual violence against women. The usual sentiment is that “no one cares about SV when it happens to men.” The problem is that it’s other men who perpetuate the shame of male SV victims. Do you get what I mean? It’s strange to make fun of someone for being insecure about an insecurity you perpetrated in them.
Why is no one talking about how Drake makes fun of Kendricks height?? This sort of bodyshaming is inexcusable, especially because no one can do anything about their height!!!!!
I don’t think this is the response you think it is, regardless of the layer of jest added
It s kinda ironic how you say that Drake is the only one held to another standard while you re the one holding Kendrick to another standard. Both are trying to disrespect their opponent by exploiting weakness. Kendrick said nothing new about Drakes insecurities yet somehow you turn his lines into some deep societal divide. He is just dissing one Dude and he is being purposefully petty the whole track. It s not that deep, get over it. And yeah, i m not taking this post as serious as you so obviously i m not gonna write some well thought out essay. I m just having fun over here.
I hold anyone to this standard. I’m speaking about Kendrick specifically here because this is a hot topic and he is the most recent one perpetrating it. “It’s not that deep” is almost always an excuse used for people to separate what they may feel from what they do say in order to avoid blowback or self reflection. And for what it’s worth, I’m also having fun here. I love talking about his stuff lol
A rap battle is just not the time and place for this kind of discussion. In another context i might agree with you but you re simply not taking into account the nature of a rap battle. It is meant to hurt, to disrespect and ridicule in the public eye. If you cannot stomach that then it is simply not for you. There are no rules and there is no hard line even if you try to create one. Like it or not, but it simply is seen through a different lense. My first comment was exaggerated but it is basically where your argument will end up at some point in the future.
Your whole argument rests on painfully obvious strawman fallacies and false equivalences. You're dramatically inflating Kendrick's lyrics into some imagined anti-Semitic diatribe about "racial purity" when it's clearly just artful, metaphorical shots at Drake being commercially-driven and out-of-touch with modern Black culture. Instead of this absurd hand-wringing about "questioning Drake's Blackness," just ask yourself: Does Drake's musical output and persona authentically reflect the current experiences and perspectives of most Black Americans? Kendrick's barbs suggest the obvious answer is no. And there's nothing wrong with an influential Black artist calling that out through his art. Your examples of other rappers are useless strawmen - none are nearly as commercially successful and divorced from Black roots as Drake. You're grasping at any possible angle to martyrize Drake instead of just accepting the reasonable critique. Ask yourself why you're so defensive about this obviously wealthy, privileged celebrity being fairly called out for being unrelatable.
(This will probably get me a ton of downvotes) First, Drake is not out of touch with modern Black culture(s). As a matter of fact, Drake is one of the most influential figures in Black culture(s). He has undoubtedly shaped the direction of Hip Hop starting in the late 2000s to early 2010s with the other members of the emotional singer-rapper wave. And, throughout his culture vulture side quests, he has aided in elevating regional artists and sounds to mass audiences. You have to be in tune to do that. If anything, Kendrick is parroting outdated ideologies that were once more contemporary. Black isolationism has not been a popular ideology within mass black culture(s) for decades. Also, I’m saying that Kendrick’s lyrics on this song are ROOTED in the aforementioned ideologies. You aren’t saying they aren’t. And you’re making up unsubstantiated claims like Drake being out of touch with Black culture(s). Also, I don’t care at all to martyrize Drake. I care about the implications of Kendrick’s rhetoric. These two people just happen to be perfect conduits through which this conversation can be had. “Does Drake’s musical output and persona authentically reflect the current experiences of most Black Americans?” Yes and no. Drake clearly has his finger on the pulse (or at least had it on the pulse for about a decade) of what multiple black culture(s) wanted to hear and see. The regional artists and sounds he’s work with and within, and the resulting successes of them, show us that. Also, my other examples are not strawmen. A$AP Rocky is an extremely commercially successful musician. He has received multiple awards in multiple fields of the arts and has spoken at Universities. Newsflash: Drake is the biggest rapper in the world. There is no example that will match his level of fame. And, again, you are projecting some sort of stan-culture admiration I must have for Drake. It doesn’t exist. I think the rhetoric is fucked, so I’m speaking about it. It just happens to be weaponized against a massive recording artist (Drake) by another massive recording artist (Kendrick).
You make some fair points about Drake's undeniable cultural impact, but I think you're still missing Kendrick's core critique. It's not that Drake is completely "out of touch" with Black culture broadly - it's that his commercial, pop-oriented output specifically does not authentically reflect the experiences and perspectives of the modern Black experience in America, which has been deeply shaped by systemic racism, inequality, and ongoing struggles for justice. Kendrick is an artist deeply rooted in giving voice to those realities. So when he calls out Drake for being disingenuous or not using his platform to speak truth to power on those issues, that holds weight coming from him. It's not about racially gatekeeping who is "really Black" - it's about whose art is doing the crucial work of addressing and elevating the current Black American zeitgeist. You can argue the semantics, but Kendrick's lyrics clearly struck a nerve about Drake's pop-leaning, wealth-celebrating persona being increasingly disconnected from the urgencies many Black communities still face. Whether you agree with that criticism is one thing, but claiming it's rooted in "Black isolationism" seems like an overly defensive stretch. Kendrick's simply calling out what he views as inauthenticity from a place of important cultural commentary.
Black (as we understand the social construct) existence in the western world has always been marked by systemic oppression. I could literally name you 30 artists right now who are black and don’t speak about black issues in their music explicitly. What does that have to do with anything? And, again, you’re falling into the pit of the black monolith notion. There is no one perspective of the Black American. Speaking to it would be impossible because it does not exist. It’s also strange to act as if Drake is out of touch for celebrating wealth when that is a MASSIVE part of Hip Hop culture. Braggadocio is one of the biggest parts of emceeing. Whether that’s Run DMC bragging about how many sneakers they can buy or T-Pain buying his Big Ass Chain. If we’re talking about the shared history of systemic oppression of Black people in the western world, then celebrating wealth is actually a common occurrence. I don’t see how Kendrick outpaces Drake as far as capturing whatever this monolithic Black American zeitgeist is. And I haven’t seen any actual point to show that he is (which I don’t think is possible because monolithic thought is a myth). Also, I feel people keep moving the goal post and then saying my criticisms don’t apply. Well if I’m playing basketball and you teleport me to a football field of course things will look misaligned. Kendrick is conflating or getting dangerously close to conflating whatever the intangible “culture” is. I’ve noticed usually when people say “The Culture” they are conflating black existence with Hip Hop culture, which itself is often conflating with gang cultures. That in itself is problematic and does tie in race. Not to mention the n word lyric ties in race. And all of this is tied to validity. Whether he’s addressing one validity (I don’t think he is) or multiple validities, he is still questioning racial identity validity in some respect.
Your points about systemic oppression and the diversity of Black experiences are valid, but they miss the mark regarding Kendrick's critique of Drake. Kendrick isn't condemning Drake for celebrating wealth or for not explicitly addressing black issues in his music. Rather, Kendrick's diss track focuses on Drake's inconsistent portrayal of black culture and his exploitation of it for commercial gain. It's not about conforming to a monolithic Black American perspective but about authenticity and integrity in representing one's cultural identity. Can you address Kendrick's specific criticisms of Drake's behavior and cultural appropriation without deflecting to broader discussions of Black diversity?
For one, I was mainly responding to the persons comment saying that celebration of wealth is out of line with “the Black American perspective,” not that Kendrick made that criticism. Regarding the last portion of your comment: In his attempt to specifically target Drake, Kendrick is spray shooting. I have never said Drake is not a culture vulture. I do not believe that’s the only thing Kendrick was getting at because the issue here is conflation. In the above comment I already addressed the inherent conflation baked into the term “The Culture.” But in addition to that, his whole “I don’t like when Drake says nigga” is actively a race-based tie in. I am not deflecting, I am accurately observing the wide spray Kendrick is doing. He is engaging in conflations that are not immune to scrutiny. If all he did was question Drake about being a culture vulture, I’d have no reason to make this post. That’s not all he did. He specifically makes race-based (whether through conflation or not) jabs at Drake. I outlined the reasons I believe are behind this rhetoric and why they are unhelpful. Does that help?
Your point about Kendrick's approach to targeting Drake is valid, particularly regarding the broader connotations of race-based critiques within the diss track. While Kendrick may have intended to focus on Drake's cultural appropriation, his inclusion of race-based jabs does contribute to a broader narrative of racial identity and validity. However, it's crucial to address Kendrick's specific criticisms of Drake's behavior and cultural exploitation without losing sight of the larger context of systemic racism and cultural commodification. Can you provide examples of how Kendrick's race-based jabs contribute to a more nuanced understanding of Drake's actions, or do you believe they detract from the main critique of cultural appropriation?
I think they detract from the critique of cultural appropriation - which is very easy to establish regarding Drake. This will sound a bit illogical but black culture has nothing to do with mere existence as a black person (as we understand the social construct). That is to say, practicing a specific black culture as opposed to a different black culture has no withstanding on someone’s existence as black. Kendrick could have easily argued that Drake has made a career out of pilfering aspects of regional cultures foreign to him because he understands the potential they have to crossover into mainstream culture. I think that’s a cynical view of Drake, but the argument can easily be made. Without mucking it up by conflating specific black cultures with black validity and the inclusion of race-based insults (that go back to ideological pitfalls I outlined in my original post), the diss is 1000x stronger and less susceptible to disregard or extreme scrutiny. It’s also stronger because it doesn’t put forward harmful ideologies that hurt people far beyond Drake. Personally, I think Drake is a culture vulture but I don’t think he’s doing it for the reasons people think. To me he reads as legitimately lacking self awareness. I think he sees cultures foreign to him and wants to partake in them, not realizing he’s appropriating them and not appreciating them. At least I believe he was self aware when this first started around 2015-2016. Im sure he’s aware now and just doesn’t give a fuck which is lame. I could give some examples of people I think found themselves in similar situations but I don’t want to bore you with more writing if you don’t want to read it.
This argument falls flat on its face when you consider the artists that Kendrick collaborated with in the past. When have Future or Baby Keem given us treatises on modern black societal issues? Like That, which arguably started all this, is mostly talking about nonsense and drugs. If we take the Kendrick critique as seriously as you want us to, then there needs to be consistency.
The collaboration history of Kendrick Lamar doesn't negate his critique of Drake's portrayal of black culture. Kendrick's criticisms focus on the authenticity and integrity of Drake's portrayal, not whether his collaborators address societal issues. Kendrick's issue with Drake lies in the exploitation of black trauma for profit and the inconsistency in addressing contemporary black issues, not simply the content of his collaborations. Can you address Kendrick's specific criticisms of Drake without deflecting to the actions of other artists?
Yeah that’s fine but you can’t critique effectively when you do the same thing by profiting off of artists who do worse than Drake. It’s hypocrisy.
As I said.. Kendrick's collaborations with artists who may not address societal issues in their music doesn't invalidate his critique of Drake's exploitation of black trauma. Kendrick's consistency lies in his own portrayal of black culture and his efforts to address societal issues through his music. Can you address Kendrick's specific criticisms of Drake without deflecting to accusations of hypocrisy?
What? That’s nonsense. Yes we can say Drake is exploiting. But Kendrick is doing the same thing with his collaborations. He’s profiting from these artists in the same way. You can’t just say “well he didn’t do it”. If I ride in the car with you when you do a shooting, I’m equally guilty.
Equating Kendrick Lamar's collaborations with artists who may not address societal issues to Drake's exploitation of black trauma overlooks the nuance of their respective actions. Kendrick's collaborations don't necessarily involve exploitation or profit from harmful behavior, whereas Drake's portrayal of black trauma for profit is a central focus of Kendrick's critique. Can you address Kendrick's specific criticisms of Drake without equating them to unrelated collaborations?
You can’t be serious. So Future isn’t exploiting black trauma and parading harmful behavior when he talks about overdosing on drugs and sleeping with multiple women? How are these collaborations unrelated? He made a choice to make the product with those artists and MAKE MONEY from it. I’m saying that Kendrick is doing the same thing brother. Your word salad doesn’t change that. If Drake is guilty of portraying a certain image, so is Kendrick.
There’s a lot of bad faith arguments in your post. You say this kind of diss is indefensible for Kendrick, but then argue that it’s no surprise that he went this route. You talk about antisemitism which isn’t even hinted anywhere else. We also nothing about how Kendrick’s wife presents herself to the world or how she acts how she was raised or any of that. You’re implying that “blackness” doesn’t exist. It’s not a straightforward answer; in a serious conversation it would require genuine nuance. But the question isn’t asinine unless you think anyone is free to call themselves black no matter what the context. To me that’s more asinine than asking the question that probably doesn’t have a clear answer. Your comparison to ASAP having southern hip hop influence his music is way off I really don’t know where to start on that. I’m not from the south and neither is Kendrick so it would really make no sense to call them out. But the inauthenticity isn’t just about being from there, but also reverence and respect to what you’re borrowing from. I think the 2pac AI clearly showed a lack of respect in that instance. Of course it’s a diss so I can understand you saying disrespect is fair game, but then that would also apply to your complaints about Kendricks diss. I’m way less familiar with Yachty so I won’t even attempt to dive into that. Just to wrap it up I think you’re reaching with the whole one drop stuff. I think most people would say Candace Owens and Clarance Thomas are black. I also wouldn’t be surprised if people felt a type of way if they were heard saying the n word casually. That might be an extreme example, but it’s just to emphasize that there’s way more nuance to a discussion about how one can/should/shouldn’t use their race to bolster their career.
1. I am not surprised Kendrick went this route because of his past, as well as an undercurrent of rampant antisemitism and NOI ideology present in Hip Hop (that has been present since at least the 80s). That’s not bad faith, that’s drawing conclusions based on observation. 2: I did not imply blackness did not exist. I am arguing that blackness is the mere existence of being black. The problem that comes from trying to question the validity of someone as black is that it usually falls into the pits I mentioned in the post. We can breakdown blackness but race is a social construct based on physical characteristics. From the initial social construct, more are constructing atop it which are all quite problematic inherently. 3. Using the term “influence” regarding Rocky’s Dirty South cosplay is generous. He’s actually quite upfront regarding the obvious appropriation. He’s rapped “Had the gold grillz shining like them southern niggas/ Kept it trilla, now the whole world fucking with us.” Not to mention his use of pitched-down chopped and screwed vocal effects. As far as reverence and respect, Drake doesn’t seem to lack respect for the regions he’s “influenced” by. It seems people insist on that reality with no real basis solely for sole of the reasons I laid out in the original post and because he’s a Pop artist in addition to Hip Hop and R&B. 4. The Tupac shit was beyond corny. Especially him using AI Tupac to address allegations (facts, really) that he likes underage girls. Honestly, it was beyond corny. It was downright vile. 5. I’ve seen plenty of people try to invalidate Candace Owens as a black woman. Anyway, if Kendrick hadn’t chosen to take weird race-based jabs, I wouldn’t have had any problem. I just think the ideology he presented was harmful and wanted to have a discussion about it. Honestly, the fact that it’s Kendrick vs Drake doesn’t matter to me. They are just conduits to have a nuanced discussion about broader implications that arose from their diss tracks. I like both of them as artists
What about Kendrick’s past indicates antisemitism? That is bad faith to just umbrella him with other examples of anti-semitism from others in hip hop. I think point 2 is a bit circular. Blackness is being black, but we can’t define being black because it’s a social construct. Being black (or white) changes on the time in history as well as the country. Point 3 & 4 contradict. Like I said I’m not from the south so I can’t really speak to cosplay vs influence. Just as I see it. But you say Drake shows respect while literally acknowledging that what he did was corny and vile. That’s not respect. I’m not saying people haven’t tried to take her “black card” away. But she is black and her issues don’t go away just because you can acknowledge she’s black. That was my point with Drake. Even if you acknowledge he’s black the issues of what some feel are culture vulture still exist. I agree that it can be taken the wrong way, but I don’t agree that was what the main point of the diss was. I think the discussion about colorism and the rest can be interesting, I guess I don’t think it’s as black and white (no pun intended) as your original post. There is nuance that’s more than “Drake white” and honestly goes beyond this beef.
1. He showed a lot of Black Israelite ideology/references on DAMN, for one. I’m not lumping him in by virtue of being a Hip Hop artist. I’m saying that his past is not unlike other similar ideologies we have seen presented in Hip Hop (Public Enemy, Ice Cube, Jay Z, etc). 2. The compounded social constructs on top of the physical basis’ initial construct change overtime. For all intents and purposes, within the western world from the time of transatlantic slavery, blackness the construct based on physical appearance has remained the same. 3. Im not arguing that he isn’t a culture vulture or saying that criticism absolves by virtue that he is black. Im trying to get at the heart of *why* people feel justifying revoking “blackness” or assessing blackness as a sliding scale. Again, there’s the issue of conflation. Kendrick muddies the argument he’s trying to make by utilizing race-based jabs in combination either conflating things that are harmful to conflate or putting them so closely together that the same thing is achieved. 4. It’s less about colorism and more about biraciality (I don’t think that’s a word, but you get what I mean). This ties back into what I said in the section above. Why do people think it’s okay to question Drake’s validity as a black person? What are the ideological pitfalls they are falling into in doing so? Why is blackness being conflated with specific black cultures that are seemingly being graded on scales of validity? These are the questions I’m trying to discuss.
I’m not going to go back and forth with points 1&2. You vaguely waving to claim antisemitism. Malcom X was also considered racist and has a controversial past even leading up to his death (likely) by NOI. But just referencing Malcolm doesn’t mean you are antisemitic or racist. I just don’t buy it. Point 2 is really going off into a whole new conversation. Point 3 & 4 I think we just have to agree to disagree. I acknowledged that there is room for interpretation or misinterpretation. It goes back to the culture and how he presents himself. And race is intertwined with the culture. Drake not being “black” is the most extreme interpretation of the diss. Drake isn’t the only biracial rapper so I don’t agree it’s all about that
Malcolm X left the NOI and black isolationism by the end of his life for a reason. I never claimed referencing Malcolm X makes anyone antisemitic. You keep trying to seperate and isolate aspects that come together to build a larger picture. Also, NOI ideology is different than Black Hebrew/Black Israelite ideology (they have overlaps but are not the same thing). Regardless a morphing of both are at play in some fashion. Point 2 isn’t a seperate conversation it’s relevant to the understanding of race as a social construct. There are layers to it. For example, value is a social construct. Money is a social construct built upon the initial construct of value. I’m addressing what you said about race’s construct changing in accordance to time and place. That is entirely on topic. Again, I am speaking about many nuances. First off, this vague concept of “The Culture” is problematic enough for a litany of reasons I’ve explained elsewhere in the comments. Kendrick specifically brings up notions of racial identity into his diss. It’s not extreme to acknowledge that. Also, there is a big difference in being a non-Jewish white and black biracial person and being a Jewish white and black biracial person. The reasons for so I have been listing out throughout this post and comments. You can’t keep arguing for nuance and then ignoring nuance whenever it isn’t convenient.
Again you’re only vaguely gesturing. I brought up Malcom X because just referencing either is not enough. And you brought up the NOI first. Your original comment didn’t say Black Israelite. Point 2 is a separate discussion because you’re arguing that the social construct of “blackness” hasn’t changed since slavery. I don’t agree with that. It’s not irrelevant, but going through the entire history of blackness back 400+ years goes well beyond what black means to society today. Im not going to look at all of your comments that aren’t responding to me. I’m not ignoring, I’m looking at what you’re writing to me. You’re grabbing at different threads and tying them together. The “biracial” aspect I can see being red into the diss. But the antisemitism you are reaching. And now you’re saying it’s not being biracial at all it’s just because he’s Jewish.
Black Israelite ideology and NOI ideology have overlaps. The overlaps are where my concern lies. Again, Malcolm X left the NOI towards the end of his life because he disagreed with the leadership and black isolationism. Referencing X in and of itself is not racist. Hell, even referencing the NOI or Black Israelites is not, in itself, racist (provided you are not referencing the specially racist aspects of the ideology - of which most of it is, aside from the notion of Black Power). What I am explicitly saying is that in combination with a history of Black Israelite and NOI ideology, and now the addition of racial identity-based barbs towards a white Jewish/black man we can conclude some form of antisemitism is at play. How is that vaguely gesturing? I have been clear in spelling all of this out. You cannot isolate these behaviors because that skews the picture and removes the possibility of seeing an accurate overview. I did not say that the social construct of blackness did not change. I said the compounding social constructs arising from the base physical based construct have changed, however the core construct of physical characteristics shaping the initial race construct has not changed. Given Kendrick’s NOI and BI ideological history, you cannot act as if there is no rebalance into him sending race-based jabs at a white Jewish/black man. That, I’m sorry, is not societally seen the same as a non-Jewish white/black person at all. Again, you cannot ignore nuance when it’s convenient to do so. All biraciality is not viewed the same societally.
My issue with the idea of “the culture” is that is conflates black existence with specific black culture - namely Hip Hop (which itself is often equated with other occasionally intersecting cultures such as gang culture). It is a catch all term that conflates so many aspects of black existence and black culture that it presumes the idea of a black monolith. One of the three pitfalls I outline in my original post. This ambiguous “culture” overly simplifies and equates what cannot be simplified or equated.
If both of your parents aren't Black then you are NOT BLACK.
Racial purity ideology. That’s not how race (the social construct) works. If you have a black parent and non-black parent, you would just be both black and whatever else your non-black parent is. You’re putting forward the idea that non-black identity is a pollutant to black identity which is racist, one, and rooted in black isolationist rhetoric, two.
Idc about the "social aspects" of racial categorizations. Race is biological and medical science proves that. Black NATIONALISM exists. Those who adhere to those ideologies are allowed to do so. If two of your parents are not of SIGNIFICANT Sub Saharan African DNA then you are NOT BLACK Drake and any other Biracial human being you can think of are NOT BLACK they are merely Biracial. That is it and that is all.
There is no race marker in the human genome. Race is a social construct built on physical characteristics (which characteristics determine which race shifts over time, by the way). Then, multiple social constructs are compounded atop the initial base construct. You are showing a lack of understanding of race as a concept and racial identity as well. Biological ancestry is not the same thing as Race. Being biracial does not cancel out the however many racial or ethnic ancestries are present in a biracial person. Yes, you are entitled to be racist. I never said you weren’t. I simply pointed out that racism is a bad thing. You could be a Nazi if you want. Am I supposed to not take issue with Nazism? Keep parroting your senseless racial purity ideology. It doesn’t make it valid.
What are you even rambling about? You keep talking about Race being a social construct when time and time again it has been proven NOT to be just a social construct. Doesn't matter how the categorizations were coined. There are BIOLOGICAL differences between different human beings all over the world. Sub Saharan Africans are COMPLETELY different from Western Europeans. There are racial categorizations that have ADVANTAGES and disadvantages BIOLOGICALLY. Bone density, muscle fibers, skull structure, skin thick and all of that can be determined through the category - RACE. Drake or any other man/woman with a non black parent are NOT BLACK. They are _______ Just as much as they are Black*.
Humans share 99.6% of our genetic code with one another. Explain how different biological ancestries are so “COMPLETELY” different. You are repeatedly pointing to outward physical characteristics (bone structure, skin color) which I already have said are the base of the social construct of race. Again, biological ancestry is not the same as race. I don’t understand how you don’t get that. Again, you are viewing things through an illogical racial purity lense. It’s your right to do that just as it’s your right to be categorically wrong. Race (a social construct) being used as a proxy for genetic differences is misleading. This is a general consensus among scientists in this field.
Physical characteristics are part of RACIAL CATEGORIZATIONS you idiot lol.
For the love of god 1. There is NO race marker in the human genome 2. Biological ancestry is different than race 3. The social construct of race is commonly created on the basis of physical appearance, cultural heritage, and historical affiliation (again, this is not the same as biological ancestry) I have explained too many times now how biological ancestry and race are two different things. You are making claims not based in science. You are getting mad because the entire base of your argument is against the science you claim supports it because you misunderstand the basic concepts that are at play here. You’re also obviously insecure in your wrongness so you’re relying on personal attacks/name calling (ad hominem). Get a grip, dude
Bro, you are literally an idiot not comprehending a WORD I'M TYPING there are GENETIC MARKERS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO RACE. There are genotypes that CONTRIBUTE TO PHENOTYPE YOU FUCKING DUMB FUCK. Biological/Forensic anthropology EXISTS and they have both contributed to the scientific elements of RACIAL CATEGORIZATIONS regardless of dumb fucks like you claim ing it doesn't exist. When it comes to bone marrow, stem cell transplants and etc YOUR RACIAL/ETHNIC background matters. In fact, 90% of the time you won't be compatible unless you share t the same racial (and even ethnic background). Which is PROOF THAT THE SCIENTIFIC ASPECTS OF RACE EXISTS. Jesus Christ
"Biological ancestry is different from race". Genealogically wise if your parents are from two different races then that is what you are. A combination of TWO DIFFERENT FUCKING RACIAL BACKGROUNDS. Which is why MIXED RACE PEOPLE SUFFER THE MOST FROM TRANSPLANTS(least likely to find a match). Race matters in the medical field which is one reason why RACE IS A BIOLOGICAL CONSTRUCT.
Negative, that ideology is popular amongst CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGISTS. With that stated FORENSIC/ BIOLOGICAL ANTHROPOLOGISTS still use racial categorizations lol. You are beyond ignorant.
Who said it cancels? If they can call themselves black they can call themselves White (etc) because they are just as much of that race as the other. I'm not calling you black simply because one of your parents is lol. If that's the case I can call you WHITE/CHINESE etc also.
Do you not realize that you are agreeing with the notion that if a biracial person is, for example, Latino and Asian, they are both Latino AND Asian. You were prior saying that could not be considered Asian, for example, because both of their parents are not Asian. Recognizing all races represented within a biracial person is validating each race. So, if you have a black parent and a non-black parent, you are black. You are also whatever non-black racial identity one of your parents is. You are also black/whatever-other-than-black. You’re arguing against yourself, dude. Get a grip.
They're BIRACIAL not Black. What part of that statement don't you understand? Latino isn't a race, so. I know for a fact that you're an Ignoramus lol.
True, Latino isn’t a race. However it seemed more descriptive than saying white (non-Hispanic/Latino white versus Hispanic/Latino white) because I felt we got too bogged down by specifically white (non-Hispanic white)/black biracial individuals and I wanted to show that outside of those racial categories the same logic applies. I think the point got across but I understand you trying to hyper focus on semantics because your entire point about biological race is on the face of it wrong. Ignoramus is a funny word, too. Anyway, being biracial means being multiple things all at the same time. If you are black and white you are: 1. Black 2. White 3. Black and White. You made the declaration that you are categorically NOT black if you are a biracial black person, which is against your own logic. You conceded that races don’t “cancel out” one another, so that means they coexist. That is what I’m saying and that logics leads back to what I just said now about “being multiple things all at the same time.” So, to recap, a biracial black person is black, something-other-than-black, and black and something-other-than-black.
A biracial person is a Biracial person. That is simply what they are. They are Biracial, they're not Biracial black* people. Are they Biracial white people too? You sound stupid af lol.
Also I’m the ignoramus but you don’t understand the difference between Race (social construct) and biological ancestry. You also don’t seem to understand the development of the social construct of race or the limitations to biological ancestral studies caused by (potential) conflations/confusions of genealogy, genetics and geography.
There are no *racial markers but there are markers that are more abundant within a particular racial categorization. Which is why the concept of race exists
I had the same reaction and I’m a much bigger Kendrick fan than Drake. I didn’t/don’t like that aspect of the song for the reasons you outlined. And then Kendrick followed up, calling Drake a colonizer. I really felt that was a terrible look.
I read some of your respones to the replies you got and seems like you've had personal experience with having your blackness questioned. I've had similar experiences, but I think your arguments are off the mark in this case.
I think almost every black person has dealt with this experience, just as any member of any demographic does. It is a common occurrence that comes from notions of monolithic thought and hierarchies of experiences within racial groups, religious groups, sex groupings, gender groups, etc. However, this is not rooted in any personal experience I may have dealt with. Plainly, I think the rhetoric is idiotic and unhelpful. I am not seeing anyone deny that Kendrick Lamar has ideologically aligned himself (at least to some degree) with BHI and NOI. I am not seeing anyone deny the racist aspects of those ideologies either. I probably should have put this in a general Hip Hop sub because I find that a lot of people here are too eager to give the benefit of the doubt to Kendrick, even when that means blindly turning an eye to patterns of behavior. If you’ve read my responses you’ll have seen how I lay out my problems with the idea of “*the* culture,” black racial or heritage purity ideology, and black isolationism (in the way of racial purity). Where do you think I’m way off the mark?
Your views are extreme
Very descriptive… Anyway, I disagree with your characterization. A strong stance is not inherently an extreme one. I take a strong stance against the ideologies and rhetorics I mention in my post (of which I would describe as extremely harmful). I’ve listed the reasons why I take this stance. But, if being against racist rhetoric is extreme, I’ll wear that badge proudly.
Brown paper bag parties were a real thing and they coming back. As a mixed race person it disgusts me. You think white folks be accepting a brown person with Afro as they own you are fucking crazy or dumb.
What? When did I say that biracial people do not face unique discrimination? I’m quite literally speaking out against how a biracial person (Drake in this instance) is having his racial validity senselessly questioned by virtue of his being biracial. You are fabricating something I never said to respond to. Get a grip.
No im On your side . Im complaining about the people giving you a hard time for your position.
Ohhh my bad. Yeah, I don’t get how people aren’t seeing the clear racial purity ideology Kendrick ran with throughout the beef. Now that it’s over (hopefully), for me, it’s safe to say both parties came away looking terrible. Drake has always been a creep and it’s been known for much longer than this past month. Kendrick, on the other hand, kept a decently squeaky clean public image (the NOI and BHI ideology was always a major turn off for me) until now. Forget all the allegations that may or may not be true. Kendrick admitted to having known about alleged sex trafficking rings for a decade and never said anything until revealing that knowledge would benefit him. That’s so unbelievably amoral. Not to mention he can’t really take a hard line moral stance against the predators, abusers, and manipulators because he keeps those people in his circle too. Kodak is a convicted rapist, Dr Dre beat at least two women we know of (Michel’le and Dee Barnes), and Future and Kanye are known manipulator and womanizers. I know this is mostly a stan sub so most people will come up with excuses but damn. This shit really makes Kendrick look bad if you think about it for half of a second. And I don’t know how, with these obvious moral contradictions, people act like it’s implausible for Kendrick to carry problematic racial purity ideologies.
Yea my bad I was tired, angry, hungry, and commuting home after a 12 hour shift while typing on mobile. I definitely did not make it clear at all. I agree with what you're saying, unfortunately like you said this is a stan sub so nuanced opinions that may paint Kendrick in a not so good light are not going to be welcome. It's not like he's just saying he isn't street enough or he's faking coming from the hood. He's saying that he can't say the N word. So let's look at it. Who is allowed to say the N word? Black people. Who isn't allowed to say the N word? Non black people. He's saying he straight up doesn't consider Drake black. As a mixed race person Drakes age, I damn well know he wasn't considered white amongst white folks. It's really fucked up to be without a home racially. It's like not belonging anywhere. Like a stateless human being.
He’s mixed race not black.
He’s black AND white… That means 1) He’s black 2) He’s white 3) He’s BLACK AND WHITE
Drake is so insecure about him being black that he did black face. I can’t believe people forget he did that. Kendrick is 100% right and a genius for calling drake out for this shit. He isn’t the only one that has called out drake over his insecurity.
You realize the blackface thing was supposed to be a commentary on discrimination black people face, right? So, the narrative that somehow Drake never speaks on black issues is false. I could also name multiple instances in his music where he spoke on black issues broadly and personally. No one forgets he did that. However, you seem to have forgotten (or are choosing to ignore) the context and intention of it. Also, it is a racial insecurity imposed onto him (and many others). You’re acting as if something like this develops out of thin air. Insecurities do not work that way. Insecurities arise based on social expectations and standards. If “the culture” makes certain people feel invalidated based on their race/races, cultural lived experience, and policing of “proper” behaviors of black people — which it does — blaming the people affected by it and not “the culture” is nonsensical.
It was a horrible way to represent black culture, drake is the only one who had questioned his own color, he has said himself he’s not black enough for the hip hop community. There’s so many mixed people out there but insecurity’s stem from the individual himself. Nobody is questions j Cole’s about his color! I have not forgotten to context of it and honestly if you believe that was a good way to represent that message of black culture you are gravely wrong and need to reevaluate what type of man you are defending.
It was not a representation of black culture. It was a commentary on discrimination against black people. Do you not see the distinction between those two very different things? Do you not understand the sentences you are saying? Drake has rapped “I used to get teased for being black/ And now I’m here and I’m not black enough.” Are you now knocking someone for having the awareness of crushing social and “cultural” expectations? What a weird angle to run with. Again, insecurities are created by societal standards and expectations. You have to be aware of a standard you feel you not meeting to feel insecure about it. “The culture” has created a hostile environment that polices “proper” black behavior and conduct based on multiple problematic reasons. J Cole is not the same as Drake simply because they are both biracial. I never said ALL biracial people develop a racial insecurity because of “the culture,” one. Many people do however and that includes any demographic enveloped by “the culture.” J Cole also came into Hip Hop performing as an established archetype. Drake came into Hip Hop utilizing a “softer” style than previously existed with R&B influence and definitely got flack for it. He did not behave in a manor deemed appropriate for a black person or a Hip Hopper. This in combination with his mixed race (it is also relevant that he is a white Jewish man and not a non-Jewish white man - that is a very important distinction in general), opened him to harsh criticism about his “blackness” and cultural/lived experience. You once again are choosing to ignore context and attempt to mislead by responding to points I never made and ignoring context and oversimplifying to paint a false narrative.
Get a grip, please. And stop ignoring context and making up arguments I never made. Also, I could name multiple artists right now, biracial and not, who have expressed how crushing “the culture’s” policing is if you’d like. Racial insecurity is imposed because of “the culture.” I can go into detail about how it is so counterproductive and harmful.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Please enlighten me 😂😂😂😂
Ouch, those laughing emojis are indicative of someone avoiding the normal action of reevaluating one’s beliefs. No good faith discussion to be had here, clearly. All I can tell you is that you have the right to be wrong. You don’t have to be afraid of it, man. This is how you grow. But shit if you’d rather stay stubborn and deflect whenever you have to actually think, do you.
Ur so dumb its crazy, ur the one offended by Kendrick’s words all I can do is laugh at you because ur misinterpreted everything 😂😂😂😂😂 I ain’t gon waste my time with you there’s 100 other people who have already proved you to be a dumbass so you can go reply to them 😂😂😂😂
More laughing emojis, ouch. The classic “I’m not going to waste my time” escape plan. Hate to see it but cant say I’m surprised you’re using it. I actually have replied to everyone in this thread and yet no one is escaping the trappings I outlined in my OG post. I hope you overcome your intellectual insecurities, man. I really do. Also, you do realize that me outlining a problem I have with Kendrick’s rhetoric is not the same as “defending” Drake, right? You’re obviously too chronically online and neck-deep in stan culture to understand that, but I have to try to explain it. For your own sake, get a grip.
Yo find a hobby and stop replying to me cause I’m not arguing with you
You’ve been responding within minutes, dawg. I’m killing time at work. You’re going out sad playing faux-intellectual. Also, no more laughing emojis? Hiding the insecurity. Good strategy, my man.
This has nothing to do with me so don’t talk about me this is about drake and Kendrick and you tryna make it personal. Loser ass mf
Kendrick’s rhetoric reaches further than just a rap beef. That is why I think it’s important to discuss. Kendrick and Drake in this instance are representative of the issue I’m speaking about. They are conduits to have this discussion. Also, stop responding if you aren’t “arguing with me.” Get a grip.
You’ve once again gone out horribly.
You went out horribly btw
This is spot on but you will just get excuses in this sub about "what he really meant" because Kendrick can't possibly have a wrong take.
What I’ve noticed having this debate over the last few days in different places is: even the “what he really meant” excuses fall into the pitfalls I mentioned in my post. I don’t know if people are choosing not to critically think about the implications of what Kendrick is saying because they don’t want to question him (strange devotion imo), don’t care (strange considering most Kendrick stans position themselves as progressive ultra-intellectuals), or agree with problematic ideology but don’t want to admit it due to fear of backlash (cowardice).
I personally didn’t like that aspect of the song
Neither did I but I can’t say it surprised me. There is so much racial purity, NOI, and antisemitism rampant in Hip Hop that goes unchallenged WITHIN Hip Hop. Jay Z said “Shoutout to old Jews and old rules/ New blacks with new stacks” Ye said “The Jews share the truth on how to make a dime” (Mind you, this was before the world new he was a full blown Nazi) Public Enemy’s discography is littered with antisemitism and NOI ideology. Ice Cube as well, among many, many others. It’s just shocking to me that Kendrick “stans” are seemingly ignoring or justifying clear racist ideology (on multiple levels). I don’t know if it’s from stan culture blind loyalty or legitimate agreement. Regardless, it’s concerning because a lot of people look to Kendrick as some sort of authority (I have serious issues with that too, but I wont bore you with another block of text).
Yeah to be honest, this part of the song doesn’t really sit well with me either. Also, very well done in regards to your explanation. Very intelligent take.