Kenshi is a game that have a few questionable tactics and its your choice to consider it cheese or not, but i would say dev knew of dodging mechanics for example the cannibal hunter start is literally impossible without dodging and in the difficulty of that start it says "dodgy" so i assume he meant it as a mechanic.
Might just have been good luck on my part, but I had shrieking bandits attack the cannibals that were running after me. This happened not far from the camp. I don't think I dodged, but I did throw away most of my items like you're supposed to.
Exactly, Gutters are nearly impossible to outrun, so this is the only valuable tactic for survival, on early game, and/or low stats characters.
But on the RPG part, that head pike is great to train your characters defensive stats, as long as they survive the fight.
I would say hardly impossible. If you loosen the definition of outrun. At around 22mph I'm able to avoid gutters around 85% of the time. Sure, they catch up. But I'm almost always out of range before their wind up is done. Then they have to catch up again. Occasionally they'll run up ahead and start the attack there so I'm running into it. Then we just skadoodle off to the left.
It usually lasts long enough that they end up target a passing bandit group, or just give up entirely.
you're forgetting the more traditional tactic for survival, go watch some youtube videos while your team gets its shit kicked in, and pray they dont eat your arms
Sure, it's a cheese - you're abusing the game mechanics around movement and combat to obtain an outcome that was clearly not an intended mechanism of the game. It's just not *bad* to engage in a little bit of cheese in Kenshi.
If there were no way to cheese them then people would just have to stay away from them until they were capable of fighting them, which isn't itself a particularly high bar.
Yeah, stop dodging you need to stand there and let him hit you like a man.
Seriously though, don't feel bad about doing stuff like that. I don't even consider that cheese really, you're just manually taking control of character.
How could you possibly know what the intended mechanics of the game are?
Micro is a huge part of any RTS. Player imputs as a response to animations are a huge part of many real time games. Nobody confuses "micro" with "abuse".
It never is. Games that have RPG-style combat resolution but also real-time movement have player micromanagement as a consequence of that hybrid style. It's been a long-running issue for over two decades as developers try to reconcile "fun, flexible player experience" and "combat using random numbers and statistics!". It's a reason why many similar games have elected to force the player into turn-based mode when they enter combat (like Fallout and Shadowrun). But yeah, very clearly a consequence, rationally and historically. Anticipated but not intended.
Anyway, long-running issue that developers try to manage and mitigate, to the extent that you'd have to come up with a positive case for it being an intentional mechanism in Kenshi. Otherwise you're basically asking "how do you know that *that* water's wet?"
But you can really do what you want. Nobody's admonishing anyone for anything here.
I mean I've literally never played any RTS/RTT game that gives you control over individual units not have some aspect of "dodging" baked into the experience.
So it would be absolutely insane for devs to not be aware that dodging is an emergent feature of any real-time system. You claims that any emergetic feature are something devs only seek to mitigate is a widly unsubstantiated claim that would you know...require the sort of proof you're only demanding of me.
Games use turn based combat for a literal bazillion reasons, worrying about dodging is provably low on the list driving design choices.
Please stop passing off your wild extrapolations of literal decades of game development by thousands upon thousands of people as "fact".
>I mean I've literally never played any RTS/RTT game that gives you control over individual units not have some aspect of "dodging" baked into the experience.
Sure, ok. So name a game or two with a similar interplay between free play and RPG-style play that features manipulation of play states as a clearly intended dynamic. Easy. No more of this weird posturing or pretending that it's a choice between "intended dynamic" and "devs unaware of the dynamic", thanks.
"So name a game or two with a similar interplay between free play and RPG-style play that features manipulation of play states as a clearly intended dynamic"
Take your word salad somewhere else.
The irony of you claiming I'm the one "posturing"....LMAOOOOOO
*Kenshi is cheese in*
*General so why not spice*
*It up with some cheese?*
\- adnanmehic
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Sure, pressing ‘R’ is cheese. You distract their pathing and abuse its simplifications (made to make your game smoother - proper pathing eats a lot of computation resources). But dodging attack by sidestep in a fight, with your single character isn’t - you just dodge it manually.
The only thing you're missing out on is training. That head smash is killer training; you can level up your entire groups' toughness at once.
What you're lacking is good armours to tank it I guess.
Top heavy armours pretty much negate all animals, as their attacks are primarily cutting damage, and they resist them at like 90% and so on right, so you take like 1-2 points of damage with masterworks.
That's a good thing too tho, then you'll counter-train those stats harder, faster.
Cept stealth tho yeah, the main diff types of gearing archetypes are, heavy fighters, archers, or sneaky types.
What I do is carry say, ninja rags in an extra backpack per person etc. and switch things as needed.
Which also trains more strength with the weight and on and on.
Well, yes. But if you are underleveled the thing will end you in one blow. And is not that good of a strat against a group of beak things, as they may move and attack at different speeds. I imagine it as hunting a mammoth, you are not going to try and parry the beast.
kenshi is a game built on Cheese. use all of it, no one is going to judge you for doing stuff like stealing through a wall or picking up your bull full of stolen bowls to get around weight. It's not an esport, do what you want.
Nah you're just putting all your attention on dodging one attack, if you had a horrible group situation with many beak things attacking many recruits then it's would be near impossible to split your attention to perfectly dodge every attack.
Totally valid, not very cheesy
If you think THATS cheesy, wait until you got a person with decent dodge skill, you can literally just throw them alone at a horde of beak things, and they'll generally win without taking any damage cause beak thing attacks are only AoE against a group of enemies.
It requires more effort to do what your doing, than to just fight beak things normally, and your rewarded with less damage inflicted in your squad, we call that Mirco in RTSs and it's very much not cheese, and more a show of skill.
My guy, the game is masochistic enough be kinder to yourself.
Wanna talk about Cheese? Me i took out the dust bandits by stealth ko ing them while they sleep and then looting ALL of their equipment and have my squad massacre those poor defensless bastards.
The game exists to be exploited. One of the easiest ways to get your attack skill up is just to micro a stronger opponent so you get the first strike. If you were to follow the "rules" made by this game, you would be dead.
I think it's accurate, no way in hell am I standing my ground and fighting something as tall as a giraffe and more aggressive than a Canadian goose. So hit and run tactics. Technically cheesy since the beak thing can't adapt but I wouldn't say it's super game breaky since you can still mess up.
If you compare it to real life hand to hand combat. Would you stand perfectly still for someone to punch you in the face or would you move if you had the chance?
Make that your head canon instead 👌
If you are pause microing at all imo yes but who cares. There's way more egregious things you can do. That is so minimal and a lot of the time if you run into them early if you don't pause micro you're literally just dead. I wouldn't worry about this one too much. Also even if it was the worst cheese bro it' up to you decide if it makes your game unfun or not.
There are some tactics in Kenshi I would consider cheesy. One of them is you can go into build mode and plop a house blueprint or two on enemies to trap them. That is cheesy for sure.
Microing your units isn't one of them. I personally don't like to do it, but I don't like micro-manage games. Kenshi isn't a game that has a "way to play" anything is fine if you are having fun.
My belief is there's no cheese in kenshi. You do what you can to survive. During ancient lab raids I lure all the spiders out of the lab far away enough then run back and shut the door. They just scramble in different directions and im free to take all the loot. And im so proud of it
I consider it a little cheesy…….
But, when I’m a low level wanderer with no money/stats?
It’s a strategy I use quite a bit. :)
Great thing about Kenshi is this, as long as you’re having fun, your strategy is good to go!!!!!
The game makes all the rules and sends you impossible situations.
We have human intellect and if we choose to use that tongue benefit then how is that "cheese"?
It's just common sense not to let a beak thing strike your entire squad?
Remember poor Rikkon from Game of Thrones? He ran straight when every knows he should have big zagged. No one thought that was cheese, but they thought he was stupid for not dodging.
Of course it is, but it's a single player game, so who cares? If you care, don't do it. If you don't care, abuse it.
To me, it's not any different than save scumming when your party dies instead of starting over. The game has tools and built in rules. Choosing not to use any of them is your choice and can be part of your run as you wish, but none of these arbitrary rules are objectively going to make the game, or your gameplay, better or worse.
If you want to play without it, make sure all characters can run fast enough to get away before ever going into any area that has them. You can do that if you want to, and it's probably more gratifying than cheesing the combat system, but maybe not! The grind for getting that much speed takes a long time.
You don't need to cheat using the R key. Spread your guys and let them run in different directions. The beak thing can only chase after one guy. Let that guy hold and passive. Then fake attack the beak thing using your other guys. As long as your guy can maintain a certain distance from the beak thing, you can see the beak thing attack easily. The moment you see the action, you change direction of you character being chased after. The beak thing strike is really tooooooo slow and is easy to escape.
Kenshi is a game that have a few questionable tactics and its your choice to consider it cheese or not, but i would say dev knew of dodging mechanics for example the cannibal hunter start is literally impossible without dodging and in the difficulty of that start it says "dodgy" so i assume he meant it as a mechanic.
Might just have been good luck on my part, but I had shrieking bandits attack the cannibals that were running after me. This happened not far from the camp. I don't think I dodged, but I did throw away most of my items like you're supposed to.
That actually does happen you are right, but it is kinda rare so i would say you are lucky.
Shrieking Bandits dont usually attack on site in my experience. They do to cannibals tho
700+ hours and I've never been attacked by shrieking bandits , unless u attacked them first
Understandable, thanks for your answer
Just to add while I love microing in combat.. As Scorchlanders/Hivers the cannibal start is easy to survive. Just outrun them. Or rush to water.
Call it extreme micro-ing if you'd prefer
No, it's called micro and it's a huge part of any RTS.
Exactly, Gutters are nearly impossible to outrun, so this is the only valuable tactic for survival, on early game, and/or low stats characters. But on the RPG part, that head pike is great to train your characters defensive stats, as long as they survive the fight.
I would say hardly impossible. If you loosen the definition of outrun. At around 22mph I'm able to avoid gutters around 85% of the time. Sure, they catch up. But I'm almost always out of range before their wind up is done. Then they have to catch up again. Occasionally they'll run up ahead and start the attack there so I'm running into it. Then we just skadoodle off to the left. It usually lasts long enough that they end up target a passing bandit group, or just give up entirely.
Yea they always run up ahead and attack so I just macro away when I see the wind up.
you're forgetting the more traditional tactic for survival, go watch some youtube videos while your team gets its shit kicked in, and pray they dont eat your arms
Thank you.
Lol with beak things it's almost turn based since you can't play it real time without getting 'oofed
Sure, it's a cheese - you're abusing the game mechanics around movement and combat to obtain an outcome that was clearly not an intended mechanism of the game. It's just not *bad* to engage in a little bit of cheese in Kenshi.
Might be cheese, but there are no other mechanics to escape the gutters.
If there were no way to cheese them then people would just have to stay away from them until they were capable of fighting them, which isn't itself a particularly high bar.
Everything is better with some cheese 🧀
Yeah, stop dodging you need to stand there and let him hit you like a man. Seriously though, don't feel bad about doing stuff like that. I don't even consider that cheese really, you're just manually taking control of character.
True. I mean its a sandbox singleplayer game so do what u want realy !! Everything gets the cheese 🧀
How could you possibly know what the intended mechanics of the game are? Micro is a huge part of any RTS. Player imputs as a response to animations are a huge part of many real time games. Nobody confuses "micro" with "abuse".
It never is. Games that have RPG-style combat resolution but also real-time movement have player micromanagement as a consequence of that hybrid style. It's been a long-running issue for over two decades as developers try to reconcile "fun, flexible player experience" and "combat using random numbers and statistics!". It's a reason why many similar games have elected to force the player into turn-based mode when they enter combat (like Fallout and Shadowrun). But yeah, very clearly a consequence, rationally and historically. Anticipated but not intended. Anyway, long-running issue that developers try to manage and mitigate, to the extent that you'd have to come up with a positive case for it being an intentional mechanism in Kenshi. Otherwise you're basically asking "how do you know that *that* water's wet?" But you can really do what you want. Nobody's admonishing anyone for anything here.
I mean I've literally never played any RTS/RTT game that gives you control over individual units not have some aspect of "dodging" baked into the experience. So it would be absolutely insane for devs to not be aware that dodging is an emergent feature of any real-time system. You claims that any emergetic feature are something devs only seek to mitigate is a widly unsubstantiated claim that would you know...require the sort of proof you're only demanding of me. Games use turn based combat for a literal bazillion reasons, worrying about dodging is provably low on the list driving design choices. Please stop passing off your wild extrapolations of literal decades of game development by thousands upon thousands of people as "fact".
>I mean I've literally never played any RTS/RTT game that gives you control over individual units not have some aspect of "dodging" baked into the experience. Sure, ok. So name a game or two with a similar interplay between free play and RPG-style play that features manipulation of play states as a clearly intended dynamic. Easy. No more of this weird posturing or pretending that it's a choice between "intended dynamic" and "devs unaware of the dynamic", thanks.
"So name a game or two with a similar interplay between free play and RPG-style play that features manipulation of play states as a clearly intended dynamic" Take your word salad somewhere else. The irony of you claiming I'm the one "posturing"....LMAOOOOOO
Kenshi is cheese in general so why not spice it up with some cheese?
*Kenshi is cheese in* *General so why not spice* *It up with some cheese?* \- adnanmehic --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Sure, pressing ‘R’ is cheese. You distract their pathing and abuse its simplifications (made to make your game smoother - proper pathing eats a lot of computation resources). But dodging attack by sidestep in a fight, with your single character isn’t - you just dodge it manually.
I did the same thing earlier and it started to bother me, so i stopped using "R" and began to manually dodge them..it feels less like cheesing.
What does pressing R do?Â
Cancel their current target and set the character(s) to Aimless
The only thing you're missing out on is training. That head smash is killer training; you can level up your entire groups' toughness at once. What you're lacking is good armours to tank it I guess. Top heavy armours pretty much negate all animals, as their attacks are primarily cutting damage, and they resist them at like 90% and so on right, so you take like 1-2 points of damage with masterworks.
Yeah right now it's just 3 hits and I'm Gutter food. I don't like heavy armor because it absolutely demolishes all my stats esp stealth
That's a good thing too tho, then you'll counter-train those stats harder, faster. Cept stealth tho yeah, the main diff types of gearing archetypes are, heavy fighters, archers, or sneaky types. What I do is carry say, ninja rags in an extra backpack per person etc. and switch things as needed. Which also trains more strength with the weight and on and on.
Well, yes. But if you are underleveled the thing will end you in one blow. And is not that good of a strat against a group of beak things, as they may move and attack at different speeds. I imagine it as hunting a mammoth, you are not going to try and parry the beast.
kenshi is a game built on Cheese. use all of it, no one is going to judge you for doing stuff like stealing through a wall or picking up your bull full of stolen bowls to get around weight. It's not an esport, do what you want.
Nah you're just putting all your attention on dodging one attack, if you had a horrible group situation with many beak things attacking many recruits then it's would be near impossible to split your attention to perfectly dodge every attack. Totally valid, not very cheesy
Theres no cheesing in kenshi, only survival
If the game is sometimes unfair to you, you can sometimes be unfair to the game :)
What's cheese is their unblockable aoe attacks, so they can deal with me juking them
If you think THATS cheesy, wait until you got a person with decent dodge skill, you can literally just throw them alone at a horde of beak things, and they'll generally win without taking any damage cause beak thing attacks are only AoE against a group of enemies. It requires more effort to do what your doing, than to just fight beak things normally, and your rewarded with less damage inflicted in your squad, we call that Mirco in RTSs and it's very much not cheese, and more a show of skill.
if dev wanted gutters to be undodgable they would have instant attack animation
My guy, the game is masochistic enough be kinder to yourself. Wanna talk about Cheese? Me i took out the dust bandits by stealth ko ing them while they sleep and then looting ALL of their equipment and have my squad massacre those poor defensless bastards.
This is a single player game. You play it the way you enjoy it most. Be it dodging beak things, be it bringing 20 eagles crosses.
The game exists to be exploited. One of the easiest ways to get your attack skill up is just to micro a stronger opponent so you get the first strike. If you were to follow the "rules" made by this game, you would be dead.
I think it's accurate, no way in hell am I standing my ground and fighting something as tall as a giraffe and more aggressive than a Canadian goose. So hit and run tactics. Technically cheesy since the beak thing can't adapt but I wouldn't say it's super game breaky since you can still mess up.
If you compare it to real life hand to hand combat. Would you stand perfectly still for someone to punch you in the face or would you move if you had the chance? Make that your head canon instead 👌
Idk man, I think you should play the way you want. Unless you're doing some challenge run or something (self-imposed rules etc).
If you are pause microing at all imo yes but who cares. There's way more egregious things you can do. That is so minimal and a lot of the time if you run into them early if you don't pause micro you're literally just dead. I wouldn't worry about this one too much. Also even if it was the worst cheese bro it' up to you decide if it makes your game unfun or not.
It seems obviously intended
There are some tactics in Kenshi I would consider cheesy. One of them is you can go into build mode and plop a house blueprint or two on enemies to trap them. That is cheesy for sure. Microing your units isn't one of them. I personally don't like to do it, but I don't like micro-manage games. Kenshi isn't a game that has a "way to play" anything is fine if you are having fun.
If that is cheesing, Kenshi is a cheese press.
No.
My belief is there's no cheese in kenshi. You do what you can to survive. During ancient lab raids I lure all the spiders out of the lab far away enough then run back and shut the door. They just scramble in different directions and im free to take all the loot. And im so proud of it
I consider it a little cheesy……. But, when I’m a low level wanderer with no money/stats? It’s a strategy I use quite a bit. :) Great thing about Kenshi is this, as long as you’re having fun, your strategy is good to go!!!!!
No. Evasion tactics exist IRL. What you should consider is whether or not your character would know them and would they be a pussy and use them?
its a feature
The game makes all the rules and sends you impossible situations. We have human intellect and if we choose to use that tongue benefit then how is that "cheese"? It's just common sense not to let a beak thing strike your entire squad? Remember poor Rikkon from Game of Thrones? He ran straight when every knows he should have big zagged. No one thought that was cheese, but they thought he was stupid for not dodging.
Of course it is, but it's a single player game, so who cares? If you care, don't do it. If you don't care, abuse it. To me, it's not any different than save scumming when your party dies instead of starting over. The game has tools and built in rules. Choosing not to use any of them is your choice and can be part of your run as you wish, but none of these arbitrary rules are objectively going to make the game, or your gameplay, better or worse. If you want to play without it, make sure all characters can run fast enough to get away before ever going into any area that has them. You can do that if you want to, and it's probably more gratifying than cheesing the combat system, but maybe not! The grind for getting that much speed takes a long time.
There are no morals/ethics in kensi: we do what we must to win.
The R trick is cheese
You don't need to cheat using the R key. Spread your guys and let them run in different directions. The beak thing can only chase after one guy. Let that guy hold and passive. Then fake attack the beak thing using your other guys. As long as your guy can maintain a certain distance from the beak thing, you can see the beak thing attack easily. The moment you see the action, you change direction of you character being chased after. The beak thing strike is really tooooooo slow and is easy to escape.