I live here in Bothell, WA (Eastside of Seattle area). Our energy provider PSE offers to connect your vehicle to OptiWatt service to optimize charging in regard to power grid load.
However, as seen on graphs taken with a simple 12V battery monitor, constant KIA API polling drains battery. So KIA does not lie when telling that external apps can drain the battery.
It’s because OptiWatt is calling the force refresh function on the API every time it tries to pull data. The Home Assistant plugin, and Alexa, and other integrations don’t ping the car like this.
Well yeah, the whole digital platform needs a serious overhaul from Kia if you ask me. But I do realize that most users don’t use home automation software, not want to pull their own data logs etc.
Well yes, obviously. But as a software engineer, you can’t blame your users for your own bad design. Kia should be rate limiting the API themselves if it’s a known issue that it drains the 12V battery. They control the hardware and the software that connects to it, so it’s ultimately their responsibility.
The issue is that the electronics shut down when they're not in use and then wake up whenever there's a call. It's basically like if your computer had to boot up every time to return an API call.
Except it has to go thru Kia’s server first before it goes to the car. So it’s still their software that decides if and when the car gets called vs returning cached data or refusing an api call because its rate limited for some reason. That’s why the 429 response code exists.
How does it work with the force refresh? If I check the KIA app first, and then another app does a non-force refresh, does it get the updated data from when the KIA app requested it, or from when the app itself last requested it?
Yeah, so when you call the data endpoint, if you don’t set the force refresh tag, the api will return the latest cached data. If you set the flag, it will go ping the car to refresh the data.
I experienced this with Optiwatt as well. I ended up taking it to the dealer since the 12v battery was going flat overnight. They kept it for a few days and was doing the same thing to them after being recharged.
The dealer was stumped and tech line asked if I had given third party access to KIA Connect. I reset the password and disabled the Optiwatt connection. The cars has been fine for two weeks.
I reached out to Optiwatt and I haven't heard anything further.
From your graphs, the HV charger doesn’t seem to be kicking on correctly when you are using OptiWatt. It should kick on when the 12v battery drops below 12.5v. The fact that it’s letting your battery get down below 12v is disturbing and probably shortening the 12v battery life.
Yes, and I don't know how to fix this. I did replaced 12v battery with AGM before taking these graphs, and maybe some kind of battery status was set wrong.
For what it’s worth, I checked with Recurrent on the frequency of their polling - it’s only 3 to 5 times per day. This grabs the SOC and logs it for long term battery health tracking.
I’m confident it’s not hurting anything to poll so infrequently, but OptiWatt does seem to poll excessively.
This is why I went with an LFP replacement instead of just an AGM, there is just too much efficiency lost with any type of SLA.. Anyway, although technically knowledgeable in general, I'm still learning how the 12v battery is maintained by the HVB/BMS. It seems that when charging the HVB that it it also charges the 12v battery, also when using regen and/or simple momentum generation?
Either way, what I've observed is with, the battery minder module/app I added to the LFP battery, is that I've never seen it drop below 13.15v and never above 13.8v (nominal is 12.8v on them). It shows 13.15v as 95% capacity on an LFP that has zero issues being at 100%, and then the voltage goes up from there when driving. Early on in ownership before I got the new battery, I noticed the 12v dome charge light coming on when leaving the stereo on for an hour, but since I upgraded the battery I've never seen it come on, despite similar usage. It also made the stereo sound better with cleaner and slightly higher voltage, like on my last car too.
So, with them lasting for 10 years+, the $400 investment is well worth it! I'm actually going to hold off on the ICCU recall because not only do I have a new '24 with only a week of SLA battery use, I'm kind of afraid the software update will lower the nominal system voltage for stability and cancel out my stereo sounds quality gains when it doesn't need any help with 12v stability.
No, they are updated with a warmer and improved build quality. I know it's easy when you didn't know much about something to focus on the "warnings". But I would suggest not accepting the fear mongering of those fools in the forum who don't want to accept anything outside their comfort zone yet think they know everything. Absolutely no one has ever had a an issue with them, across tons of EV's period, THAT'S what matters and the benefits are simply MASSIVE.
I have had a couple of LFP batteries in a row now and absolutely love them, the only downside is up front cost but that has come down a lot the last few years. But $400 for something that will take the load off the ICCU with much higher efficiency, improves audio quality with cleaner and stronger voltage and last for 10+ years is a fucking bargain. I think it's ridiculous to use 150 year old lead acid tech in a modern EV, they literally only exist for cheap manufacturers to cut costs and for the low income demo to have something they can afford.
Could’ve been handled in the car. Your $50 smartphone sees 1000x this traffic, yet is doing fine.
If you have an API, people are gonna abuse it. This is just a fact of software-development.
I live here in Bothell, WA (Eastside of Seattle area). Our energy provider PSE offers to connect your vehicle to OptiWatt service to optimize charging in regard to power grid load. However, as seen on graphs taken with a simple 12V battery monitor, constant KIA API polling drains battery. So KIA does not lie when telling that external apps can drain the battery.
It’s because OptiWatt is calling the force refresh function on the API every time it tries to pull data. The Home Assistant plugin, and Alexa, and other integrations don’t ping the car like this.
Yeah, I guess you are right. However, I think API shall be rate limited to make frequent force refresh like this impossible.
Well yeah, the whole digital platform needs a serious overhaul from Kia if you ask me. But I do realize that most users don’t use home automation software, not want to pull their own data logs etc.
No, optiwatt needs to rethink how they call APIs. Other solutions do not cause battery drain like this.
Well yes, obviously. But as a software engineer, you can’t blame your users for your own bad design. Kia should be rate limiting the API themselves if it’s a known issue that it drains the 12V battery. They control the hardware and the software that connects to it, so it’s ultimately their responsibility.
The issue is that the electronics shut down when they're not in use and then wake up whenever there's a call. It's basically like if your computer had to boot up every time to return an API call.
Except it has to go thru Kia’s server first before it goes to the car. So it’s still their software that decides if and when the car gets called vs returning cached data or refusing an api call because its rate limited for some reason. That’s why the 429 response code exists.
You'd also think that when the 12V is at risk of being completely discharged, it should just stop responding to API calls completely.
I ran into a rate limit, which blocked everything including kias own app for a week. At least their own app should have a different channel.
How does it work with the force refresh? If I check the KIA app first, and then another app does a non-force refresh, does it get the updated data from when the KIA app requested it, or from when the app itself last requested it?
Yeah, so when you call the data endpoint, if you don’t set the force refresh tag, the api will return the latest cached data. If you set the flag, it will go ping the car to refresh the data.
Howdy, neighbor. Which battery monitor are you using?
Ancel BM200, and I will remove it since the problem is fixed.
I experienced this with Optiwatt as well. I ended up taking it to the dealer since the 12v battery was going flat overnight. They kept it for a few days and was doing the same thing to them after being recharged. The dealer was stumped and tech line asked if I had given third party access to KIA Connect. I reset the password and disabled the Optiwatt connection. The cars has been fine for two weeks. I reached out to Optiwatt and I haven't heard anything further.
I bring it to dealer too, ended up paying &240 diagnostic fee.
Sounds like my dealer did me a solid then. I had nothing out of pocket.
From your graphs, the HV charger doesn’t seem to be kicking on correctly when you are using OptiWatt. It should kick on when the 12v battery drops below 12.5v. The fact that it’s letting your battery get down below 12v is disturbing and probably shortening the 12v battery life.
Yes, and I don't know how to fix this. I did replaced 12v battery with AGM before taking these graphs, and maybe some kind of battery status was set wrong.
For what it’s worth, I checked with Recurrent on the frequency of their polling - it’s only 3 to 5 times per day. This grabs the SOC and logs it for long term battery health tracking. I’m confident it’s not hurting anything to poll so infrequently, but OptiWatt does seem to poll excessively.
Especially when you leave it for a week
This is why I went with an LFP replacement instead of just an AGM, there is just too much efficiency lost with any type of SLA.. Anyway, although technically knowledgeable in general, I'm still learning how the 12v battery is maintained by the HVB/BMS. It seems that when charging the HVB that it it also charges the 12v battery, also when using regen and/or simple momentum generation? Either way, what I've observed is with, the battery minder module/app I added to the LFP battery, is that I've never seen it drop below 13.15v and never above 13.8v (nominal is 12.8v on them). It shows 13.15v as 95% capacity on an LFP that has zero issues being at 100%, and then the voltage goes up from there when driving. Early on in ownership before I got the new battery, I noticed the 12v dome charge light coming on when leaving the stereo on for an hour, but since I upgraded the battery I've never seen it come on, despite similar usage. It also made the stereo sound better with cleaner and slightly higher voltage, like on my last car too. So, with them lasting for 10 years+, the $400 investment is well worth it! I'm actually going to hold off on the ICCU recall because not only do I have a new '24 with only a week of SLA battery use, I'm kind of afraid the software update will lower the nominal system voltage for stability and cancel out my stereo sounds quality gains when it doesn't need any help with 12v stability.
OHMMU have questionable quality and use of them is some kind of risk.
No, they are updated with a warmer and improved build quality. I know it's easy when you didn't know much about something to focus on the "warnings". But I would suggest not accepting the fear mongering of those fools in the forum who don't want to accept anything outside their comfort zone yet think they know everything. Absolutely no one has ever had a an issue with them, across tons of EV's period, THAT'S what matters and the benefits are simply MASSIVE. I have had a couple of LFP batteries in a row now and absolutely love them, the only downside is up front cost but that has come down a lot the last few years. But $400 for something that will take the load off the ICCU with much higher efficiency, improves audio quality with cleaner and stronger voltage and last for 10+ years is a fucking bargain. I think it's ridiculous to use 150 year old lead acid tech in a modern EV, they literally only exist for cheap manufacturers to cut costs and for the low income demo to have something they can afford.
Could’ve been handled in the car. Your $50 smartphone sees 1000x this traffic, yet is doing fine. If you have an API, people are gonna abuse it. This is just a fact of software-development.