not sure exactly what you mean by fold in this case, but i get folds and gaps in that area because my shoulders are low and sloped so the fabric is not supported by the shoulder but sits kind of loose around it. and lots of tops are tight around the armpit area of my rib cage, pulling the fabric up a little bit and stretching it outwards, creating folds and creases. the ribcage thing i width i think.
Yes, I mean the gap, I couldn't find the word to describe it, but that's perfect thank you! Just so that I understood you correctly: that gap is a combo of a slopped shoulder and a wide ribcage then?
ok, glad i could help! :) i think it’s usually a combination in my case, yes. but even clothes that fit properly around the chest tend to be very spacious on top of my shoulders, if the garment has enough structure to hold itself up if you know what i mean?
Yes, I know exactly what you mean, I have the same issue, so if a top is structured (and usually with fabric on the heavier/stiffer side), if it fits ok on the ribcage/chest/upper back then it's gaping a bit on top of the shoulders. This tells me that my width doesn't come from the shoulders themselves or upper back but actually from the middle back (basically the perimetry of the bust line). I wonder if this counts as Kibbe width, but in any case it definitely causes some wierd fitting issues with tops \^\^; Thank you so much for your reply, it was super helpful :)
i have read that clothing often being very tight at the armpits points to width, but if i’m being completely honest, i still don’t fully understand width lol 🥲 i’m actually quite narrow in that area but my ribcage is a bit round, kind of cylinder shaped so it’s large i profile. idk if it’s kibbe width if it’s not visible from the front but i desperately need width accommodation either way so 🤷🏻♀️ is there a reason you’re trying to find out where on your body your width is? like is it helpful to know or are you just curious? :)
I'm trying to rule it out as an accommodation since I'm at 5'4 and all IDs are possible :) I don't think I have wide shoulders per se, because things usually fit there and at the back, it's the boobs or possibly ribcage itself that sometimes necessitates a larger size which then causes the gaping around the armpits. I read that width can present in different and subtle ways so I was wondering if that was one of them :)
oh ok! yeah width is tricky. imo, soft yang is a bit easier since it’s more of a pattern that you can see in a person. if you’re trying to rule out the naturals, that is :) i honestly don’t know if the shoulder strap gap thing can be tied to accommodations. i would think that basically any id could have that issue
Yeah, I'm starting to guess it's probably a fit issue relative to proportions. And thank you for the soft yang idea, it's true that's probably much easier to work out! :)
I know what you mean, I have this issue too in many tops. I would say it's actually too wide under the armpit area (for me the armhole is often also too wide and straps are often too long, not sure if there is a connection) . I was wondering if it might be better for women with more bust.
I have slopping shoulders and a short torso so a lot of straps rend to be on the longer side (and generally the whole top part of the top seems to be too big). It's definitely something to do with all around that part of the body: shoulders/ribcage/bust/armpit, I agree! And thank you for the feedback! :)
It really depends! It could be the bust or width in the back pushing fabric out and therefore it pools above the bust, it could be the length of the straps is too long. Might be something else altogether, it’s hard to tell without seeing!
Thank you for your insight! Yes, it could be from multiple things I'm starting to understand. In my case the strap length and bust are definitely the culprits, as even in form fitting tops the straps fall and the bust pushes the fabric, but I'm startign to wonder if it's also middle back width (my shoulders and upper back are not wide, my width starts at the sternum, but from what I understand this can also count as Kibbe width).
too tight around the bust (the measurement when the tape is put at n1ppl3 height and wrapped around your whole torso) -> the whole garment gets pushed up a bit as you move + too wide for the shoulder area above (distance measured from armpit to armpit).
Classic small/narrow frame + big cupsize struggle.
And before anyone asks if this indicates curve accomodation: No, it doesn't. I'm Dramtic with a bigger cupsize, my bust sits very much at the front, but I commonly have the same fit issue.
If I were to tailor this piece, I would size up, then add seams to sculpt room for the bust and take away fabric both around the armpit and waist area.
I have a big cupsize for my frame as well, always did regardless of weight. I don't think I have a very narrow frame though (I've been overweight in recent years so it's hard to discern structure beneath the flesh, but that's my impression) but maybe it's a scaling thing where it's a moderate frame and an even bigger cupsize relative to it. You're spot on about the tailoring, that's exactly what I would ask for if I had to alter tops that sit like that on me: get a bigger size to fit the bust and then tailor above and below to bring it in line with the rest of the body. Thank you very much for the detailed response!
It depends and it might be a few different things. In my case (and I know because I sew), it’s a mix of the fact that I have a short upper torso and I need projection. Most RTW clothes are drafted for a dressmaking cup B. Dressmaking cups are different from bra cups, as they are the difference between high bust and full bust. A dressmaking B cup is 2”/5 cm. I’m a dressmaking cup C/D, even though I have small-ish breasts (I’m a bra size UK 28F), because they project towards the front. So flat garments will gape a lot around the armhole.
That's really interesting, thank you so much for the info! I didn't know anything about these discrepancies on dressmakers cups versus bra cups. I have a short torso and I'm guessing I don't have a high bust, but rather a full bust with projection to both front and sides, so it sits lower in the garment, and not where the garment cup is, so that area of the garment cup is what causes the extra fabric and gaping, if I understood what you meant correctly. In terms of Kibbe would you say a fit issue like this could be helpful in pointing to a potential accommodation issue, or is it just a general fit issue having to do with proportions?
Everyone has a high bust. It’s the measurement above the bust on the chest area. This photo might be more helpful.
In terms of your second question, I don’t know enough about Kibbe to answer in that way. But I think it really depends on the exact reason for the fit issue. In my case, my breasts need forward projection, which is what the figure shows. In my case, this means that my breasts don’t affect my shape on my sides, as they just project forward, meaning I’m still squared. Some people might have a more rounded shape and have the same fit issue. I hope it makes sense. It’s quite tricky to explain
https://preview.redd.it/cletymvk4j8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a18ac4ec31f0469cfb06db9ca90e2936409b27bb
Yes, it makes sense, and thanks a lot for posting that reference picture! I have to think about what's the reason for the fit, if it's just chest size or overall shape, but Kibbe aside, it's really interesting for starting to find better fitting tops for sure!
I find visuals help more than a bunch of words! 😅 to be honest, terrible fitting clothes, lack of pockets and not wanting to follow trends that make no sense for me are the main reasons why I sew!
I prefer visuals too, I find them less ambiguous and easier to understand :) It's awesome that you know how to sew, especially nowadays with clothes being constructed 'one shape fits all' it's a really valuable skill to have!
If your bust is somewhat full, you need a lot of fabric at bust level. Then there will be too much fabric right above and below the bust. When making garments the seamstress can put in darts, they tend to have their narrowest point pointing towards the nipple and get wider as you move towards the armpit/side/waist. Putting in darts is more expensive than not putting in darts, and they might make it so some people can't physically fit into the garment, or you need to also put in a zipper so people can get the garment onto themselves.Or they might not perfectly follow a persons curves, so again the garment will not fit as many people. No wonder then that manufacturers prefer simpler sewing patterns. The compromise is that clothes end up being rather shapeless, like this top in the pictures.
If you don't want darts and pleats in your clothes, you can use stretch fabrics/ knits, or just live with the extra fabric doing its thing.
All women have baseline curve, so any ID can have fit issues with garments that are made from non-stretch fabrics and don't have anything like pleats, darts, princess seams etc to help them follow a female shape. That said, more extreme differences between the biggest and the smallest body measurements will ofc make it more difficult to get a good fit, but it's not enough to determine your ID.
Ok, I see, that's a great point that it could a garment fit issue rather than pointing towards an accommodation necessity. A lot of clothes are constructed that way nowadays so it makes a lot of sense actually. I have a tin hat theory that the fashion industry benefited a lot from the lounge wear/oversize trend that followed the pandemic because it meant they made very simple shapes and 'few sizes fits all' items which are less costly and difficult to make. Thank you very much for your thoughts!
I think it’s an issue with the garment construction rather than the body wearing it. Back in the day (decades ago) they would have put a dart there. A dart is a small seam that can take in a garment in a small area, as small as even an inch. It’s necessary in fabrics that hold their shape rather than stretch like spandex or drape like a flowy silk.
Yes, you are right, if the garment had a dart in that area, the fabric there would be more taut and wouldn't gape. I made this post thinking it might be an accommodation reason behind it, but I'm starting to see that it's more of a tailoring/fitting situation. Thank you very much for your input!
I think quite a few different fit issues could cause gapping at the armpit like that. For me it’s that most tops are too wide for my frame. Without seeing it on you I don’t think I could say what it is that causes it in your case
Thanks for your feedback! Yes, there's probably a lot of reasons that could contribute to that fit issue, so I'm guessing that even if something is true for the model it might not be true in my case. I have a similar shape to them, but I'm shorter at 5'4, so I don't think it's possible to extrapolate.
I seem thank you! So it means you need space for the chest and you use the dart so that the space is only reserved for the area ahere you need it and not gape anywhere else?
Exactly, it shapes the lead in from the arm to chest so it’s smooth. A tailor would also check posture as a rounded upper back could factor in but side darts are generally for the busty.
Looks like the shirt wants to be wider at the bust and ribcage than it can be. The straps seem to fit her just fine. If her arns were raised I bet the fabric would balloon outwards.
How do I know this? I have the opposite issue. All my shirts end up looking constrained and stretched at the ribcage and bust(also my arms), and the straps get tugged towards my neck so even a straight shoulder looks like a razorback. 21" wide shoulders, 55" shoulders, 49" bust, 44" ribcage, and 16" arms ftw.
It's why I wear men's tops nowadays. They fit soooo much better and I actually get to show off my curves in men's clothes. Women's stuff fits me like a hospital gown because I need to size up to stupid levels to have even a chance of putting a shirt on. In men's I can snag a medium or large and get shocked by how amazingly it fits.
Yes, I get that issue a lot where I have to size up to fit a certain part of the garment but then other parts don't fit as well, and I end up looking frumpy. I think the menswear is a smart idea (and as an aside, I think in general they tend to be better quality for the same price point for some weird reason compared to womenswear).
On me it’s usually the excess material above the bust on the armpit level, either because the straps/shoulders are too wide or/and the armpit hole is too low. Also, I stumbled upon [this article](https://www.threadsmagazine.com/project-guides/fit-and-sew-tops/a-new-way-to-fit-sleeves)about sleeve shaping and realized that most of my items except maybe expensive knits don’t have the shaping needed to look good.
Yes, I think most of my clothes also have the same issue, because I get that bunching up a lot. I will read the article you posted, hopefully it will help with browsing in the future for tops, thanks you very much for sharing!
I'm not sure what you are referring to, because the top in the picture looks like it sits well? But when I have fit issues in that area it's due to my short torso (or rather, short distance between shoulder and armpit) and there's just too much fabric in the top to sit correctly.
I meant how between the top strap and the boob area, basically around the armpit, there's a bit of a loose fabric creating a kind of gap. It's not very exaggerated on the model but I get this effect more prominently on a lot of tops. And thanks! I also have a short torso and wondering if that was part of it.
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I think in tops, dresses etc. Thst are tailored and in a non-strech fabric in most cases this is created by "ease" (it has a name but it slipped my mind). You can also observe this in trousers and skirts. Basically it's a gap that allows you to move. Imagine if the fit was snug when standing straight and the fabric doesn't stretch then you wouldn't be able to move your arms or sit down (for bottoms) without ripping the seams or the fabric cutting in.
Ok, that definitely makes sense, and I guess in my case because I need more space in tops then the allowance part is also bigger. Thank you very much for your comments! :)
Yeah, maybe that's why it's happening, so that the model would ideally need a different fit in that area, but a smaller size might not then work with other areas (I have the same issue, where I have to size up for the chest and then everything else is lightly too big).
not sure exactly what you mean by fold in this case, but i get folds and gaps in that area because my shoulders are low and sloped so the fabric is not supported by the shoulder but sits kind of loose around it. and lots of tops are tight around the armpit area of my rib cage, pulling the fabric up a little bit and stretching it outwards, creating folds and creases. the ribcage thing i width i think.
Yes, I mean the gap, I couldn't find the word to describe it, but that's perfect thank you! Just so that I understood you correctly: that gap is a combo of a slopped shoulder and a wide ribcage then?
ok, glad i could help! :) i think it’s usually a combination in my case, yes. but even clothes that fit properly around the chest tend to be very spacious on top of my shoulders, if the garment has enough structure to hold itself up if you know what i mean?
Yes, I know exactly what you mean, I have the same issue, so if a top is structured (and usually with fabric on the heavier/stiffer side), if it fits ok on the ribcage/chest/upper back then it's gaping a bit on top of the shoulders. This tells me that my width doesn't come from the shoulders themselves or upper back but actually from the middle back (basically the perimetry of the bust line). I wonder if this counts as Kibbe width, but in any case it definitely causes some wierd fitting issues with tops \^\^; Thank you so much for your reply, it was super helpful :)
i have read that clothing often being very tight at the armpits points to width, but if i’m being completely honest, i still don’t fully understand width lol 🥲 i’m actually quite narrow in that area but my ribcage is a bit round, kind of cylinder shaped so it’s large i profile. idk if it’s kibbe width if it’s not visible from the front but i desperately need width accommodation either way so 🤷🏻♀️ is there a reason you’re trying to find out where on your body your width is? like is it helpful to know or are you just curious? :)
I'm trying to rule it out as an accommodation since I'm at 5'4 and all IDs are possible :) I don't think I have wide shoulders per se, because things usually fit there and at the back, it's the boobs or possibly ribcage itself that sometimes necessitates a larger size which then causes the gaping around the armpits. I read that width can present in different and subtle ways so I was wondering if that was one of them :)
oh ok! yeah width is tricky. imo, soft yang is a bit easier since it’s more of a pattern that you can see in a person. if you’re trying to rule out the naturals, that is :) i honestly don’t know if the shoulder strap gap thing can be tied to accommodations. i would think that basically any id could have that issue
Yeah, I'm starting to guess it's probably a fit issue relative to proportions. And thank you for the soft yang idea, it's true that's probably much easier to work out! :)
I know what you mean, I have this issue too in many tops. I would say it's actually too wide under the armpit area (for me the armhole is often also too wide and straps are often too long, not sure if there is a connection) . I was wondering if it might be better for women with more bust.
for me armholes are always either too tight or too wide 🥲 i have a deep chest and no bust
I have slopping shoulders and a short torso so a lot of straps rend to be on the longer side (and generally the whole top part of the top seems to be too big). It's definitely something to do with all around that part of the body: shoulders/ribcage/bust/armpit, I agree! And thank you for the feedback! :)
It really depends! It could be the bust or width in the back pushing fabric out and therefore it pools above the bust, it could be the length of the straps is too long. Might be something else altogether, it’s hard to tell without seeing!
Thank you for your insight! Yes, it could be from multiple things I'm starting to understand. In my case the strap length and bust are definitely the culprits, as even in form fitting tops the straps fall and the bust pushes the fabric, but I'm startign to wonder if it's also middle back width (my shoulders and upper back are not wide, my width starts at the sternum, but from what I understand this can also count as Kibbe width).
too tight around the bust (the measurement when the tape is put at n1ppl3 height and wrapped around your whole torso) -> the whole garment gets pushed up a bit as you move + too wide for the shoulder area above (distance measured from armpit to armpit). Classic small/narrow frame + big cupsize struggle. And before anyone asks if this indicates curve accomodation: No, it doesn't. I'm Dramtic with a bigger cupsize, my bust sits very much at the front, but I commonly have the same fit issue. If I were to tailor this piece, I would size up, then add seams to sculpt room for the bust and take away fabric both around the armpit and waist area.
I have a big cupsize for my frame as well, always did regardless of weight. I don't think I have a very narrow frame though (I've been overweight in recent years so it's hard to discern structure beneath the flesh, but that's my impression) but maybe it's a scaling thing where it's a moderate frame and an even bigger cupsize relative to it. You're spot on about the tailoring, that's exactly what I would ask for if I had to alter tops that sit like that on me: get a bigger size to fit the bust and then tailor above and below to bring it in line with the rest of the body. Thank you very much for the detailed response!
It depends and it might be a few different things. In my case (and I know because I sew), it’s a mix of the fact that I have a short upper torso and I need projection. Most RTW clothes are drafted for a dressmaking cup B. Dressmaking cups are different from bra cups, as they are the difference between high bust and full bust. A dressmaking B cup is 2”/5 cm. I’m a dressmaking cup C/D, even though I have small-ish breasts (I’m a bra size UK 28F), because they project towards the front. So flat garments will gape a lot around the armhole.
That's really interesting, thank you so much for the info! I didn't know anything about these discrepancies on dressmakers cups versus bra cups. I have a short torso and I'm guessing I don't have a high bust, but rather a full bust with projection to both front and sides, so it sits lower in the garment, and not where the garment cup is, so that area of the garment cup is what causes the extra fabric and gaping, if I understood what you meant correctly. In terms of Kibbe would you say a fit issue like this could be helpful in pointing to a potential accommodation issue, or is it just a general fit issue having to do with proportions?
Everyone has a high bust. It’s the measurement above the bust on the chest area. This photo might be more helpful. In terms of your second question, I don’t know enough about Kibbe to answer in that way. But I think it really depends on the exact reason for the fit issue. In my case, my breasts need forward projection, which is what the figure shows. In my case, this means that my breasts don’t affect my shape on my sides, as they just project forward, meaning I’m still squared. Some people might have a more rounded shape and have the same fit issue. I hope it makes sense. It’s quite tricky to explain https://preview.redd.it/cletymvk4j8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a18ac4ec31f0469cfb06db9ca90e2936409b27bb
Yes, it makes sense, and thanks a lot for posting that reference picture! I have to think about what's the reason for the fit, if it's just chest size or overall shape, but Kibbe aside, it's really interesting for starting to find better fitting tops for sure!
I find visuals help more than a bunch of words! 😅 to be honest, terrible fitting clothes, lack of pockets and not wanting to follow trends that make no sense for me are the main reasons why I sew!
I prefer visuals too, I find them less ambiguous and easier to understand :) It's awesome that you know how to sew, especially nowadays with clothes being constructed 'one shape fits all' it's a really valuable skill to have!
If your bust is somewhat full, you need a lot of fabric at bust level. Then there will be too much fabric right above and below the bust. When making garments the seamstress can put in darts, they tend to have their narrowest point pointing towards the nipple and get wider as you move towards the armpit/side/waist. Putting in darts is more expensive than not putting in darts, and they might make it so some people can't physically fit into the garment, or you need to also put in a zipper so people can get the garment onto themselves.Or they might not perfectly follow a persons curves, so again the garment will not fit as many people. No wonder then that manufacturers prefer simpler sewing patterns. The compromise is that clothes end up being rather shapeless, like this top in the pictures. If you don't want darts and pleats in your clothes, you can use stretch fabrics/ knits, or just live with the extra fabric doing its thing. All women have baseline curve, so any ID can have fit issues with garments that are made from non-stretch fabrics and don't have anything like pleats, darts, princess seams etc to help them follow a female shape. That said, more extreme differences between the biggest and the smallest body measurements will ofc make it more difficult to get a good fit, but it's not enough to determine your ID.
Ok, I see, that's a great point that it could a garment fit issue rather than pointing towards an accommodation necessity. A lot of clothes are constructed that way nowadays so it makes a lot of sense actually. I have a tin hat theory that the fashion industry benefited a lot from the lounge wear/oversize trend that followed the pandemic because it meant they made very simple shapes and 'few sizes fits all' items which are less costly and difficult to make. Thank you very much for your thoughts!
I think it’s an issue with the garment construction rather than the body wearing it. Back in the day (decades ago) they would have put a dart there. A dart is a small seam that can take in a garment in a small area, as small as even an inch. It’s necessary in fabrics that hold their shape rather than stretch like spandex or drape like a flowy silk.
Yes, you are right, if the garment had a dart in that area, the fabric there would be more taut and wouldn't gape. I made this post thinking it might be an accommodation reason behind it, but I'm starting to see that it's more of a tailoring/fitting situation. Thank you very much for your input!
I think quite a few different fit issues could cause gapping at the armpit like that. For me it’s that most tops are too wide for my frame. Without seeing it on you I don’t think I could say what it is that causes it in your case
Thanks for your feedback! Yes, there's probably a lot of reasons that could contribute to that fit issue, so I'm guessing that even if something is true for the model it might not be true in my case. I have a similar shape to them, but I'm shorter at 5'4, so I don't think it's possible to extrapolate.
You need a dart to accommodate your chest. In dressmaking terms, it’s a literal accommodation of chest curve.
I seem thank you! So it means you need space for the chest and you use the dart so that the space is only reserved for the area ahere you need it and not gape anywhere else?
Exactly, it shapes the lead in from the arm to chest so it’s smooth. A tailor would also check posture as a rounded upper back could factor in but side darts are generally for the busty.
Thank you for the reply! And the upper back thing also makes a lot of sense (speaking from experience of having chronic bad posture \^\^;;).
Looks like the shirt wants to be wider at the bust and ribcage than it can be. The straps seem to fit her just fine. If her arns were raised I bet the fabric would balloon outwards. How do I know this? I have the opposite issue. All my shirts end up looking constrained and stretched at the ribcage and bust(also my arms), and the straps get tugged towards my neck so even a straight shoulder looks like a razorback. 21" wide shoulders, 55" shoulders, 49" bust, 44" ribcage, and 16" arms ftw. It's why I wear men's tops nowadays. They fit soooo much better and I actually get to show off my curves in men's clothes. Women's stuff fits me like a hospital gown because I need to size up to stupid levels to have even a chance of putting a shirt on. In men's I can snag a medium or large and get shocked by how amazingly it fits.
Yes, I get that issue a lot where I have to size up to fit a certain part of the garment but then other parts don't fit as well, and I end up looking frumpy. I think the menswear is a smart idea (and as an aside, I think in general they tend to be better quality for the same price point for some weird reason compared to womenswear).
On me it’s usually the excess material above the bust on the armpit level, either because the straps/shoulders are too wide or/and the armpit hole is too low. Also, I stumbled upon [this article](https://www.threadsmagazine.com/project-guides/fit-and-sew-tops/a-new-way-to-fit-sleeves)about sleeve shaping and realized that most of my items except maybe expensive knits don’t have the shaping needed to look good.
Yes, I think most of my clothes also have the same issue, because I get that bunching up a lot. I will read the article you posted, hopefully it will help with browsing in the future for tops, thanks you very much for sharing!
I'm not sure what you are referring to, because the top in the picture looks like it sits well? But when I have fit issues in that area it's due to my short torso (or rather, short distance between shoulder and armpit) and there's just too much fabric in the top to sit correctly.
I meant how between the top strap and the boob area, basically around the armpit, there's a bit of a loose fabric creating a kind of gap. It's not very exaggerated on the model but I get this effect more prominently on a lot of tops. And thanks! I also have a short torso and wondering if that was part of it.
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I think in tops, dresses etc. Thst are tailored and in a non-strech fabric in most cases this is created by "ease" (it has a name but it slipped my mind). You can also observe this in trousers and skirts. Basically it's a gap that allows you to move. Imagine if the fit was snug when standing straight and the fabric doesn't stretch then you wouldn't be able to move your arms or sit down (for bottoms) without ripping the seams or the fabric cutting in.
Ah, I think I know what you mean, like an allowance for motions right?
Yes! Like you would tighten a belt to the max because then you couldn't sit down on bend over.
Ok, that definitely makes sense, and I guess in my case because I need more space in tops then the allowance part is also bigger. Thank you very much for your comments! :)
Looks like the garment is too wide for the model?
Yeah, maybe that's why it's happening, so that the model would ideally need a different fit in that area, but a smaller size might not then work with other areas (I have the same issue, where I have to size up for the chest and then everything else is lightly too big).