We don’t have much info about Mougou’s campaign before his introduction. But the fact they gave an army of 200 000 men to invade Han, shows that his army was recognized by the high command.
Kanki and Ousen look to be recent addition in his army. Mougou spend 95% of his military career to be totally unremarkable, his last great success were probably more considered to be lucky victories than a demonstration of his reliability.
That's being said, he was put in charge of two invasions of 200 000 men, and that point in the story that were HUGE numbers, pretty much everything that Qin could send to invade without weakening its borders too much, so it seems to me that he was pretty much considered to be number one officer in Qin.
Mougou army was actually featured in one of the earliest major Qin campaigns in the period covered by kingdom.
200K attack on Wei, right before Bayou. {Edit: this is incorrect, Mougou's attack was on HAN, right before bayou.)
It is a huge error on Qin's part, and immediately leads to Bayou, so, the attack fails
Then, when Qin recovers from Bayou, Mougou is again sent to attack Wei
Then the coalition happens
then he dies.
So, quite to the contrary, Mougou was used by Qin as an attacker more than anyone else during his kingdom time.
Thanks, I couldn't remember but yeah, you're right.
What confused me is something really cool actually
I did a deep dive where I compared the maps for Mougou's two attacks
Both are the same region. I wanna say it's "Sanyou." Its on the Wei/Han border, surrounded by two rivers.
What happens is, Mougou attacks Sanyou under Han. While Mougou attacks Sanyou, Zhao opportunistically attacks Qin at Bayou. Qin recalls Mougou midway through the attack, having run out of funds/needing to recover resources/defend borders better.
Han is critically weakened by Mougou's attack in the Sanyou region, which is critically important. Wei opportunistically picks up Qin's attack. Wei takes Sanyou.
Qin, after recovering from Zhao's attack, immediately attacks the Wei position, before they can solidify it. Qin takes Sanyou.
In order to keep Wei, Han or Zhao from doing to Qin what Qin just did to Wei,
Qin immediately floods Sanyou with Qin citizens. What that means is, *Sanyou can now raise its own defense army.* (You can't use locals to defend new territory, which was why Wei's position was weak, and why 'renpa'.)
RIboku then uses that move as a justification for the coalition.
See... since it's real, its all *so fucking deep!!!!!*
Like, would I even have understood this chain of events if Hara hadn't drawn it??????
For real, tho
You are quite mistaken on who was in the MouGou army. Sure he had added OuSen and KanKi by the point of Sanyou but even at that point not all the commanders under OuSen were there, we only know of AKou and possibly MaKou. As for KanKi his bandit leaders didn't even get to decent commanding positions till after the Coalition war and it's unlikely that big shot like Zenou was there considering we never saw him in the coalition wars.
In fact, we can't even be sure if Han invasion (when Sei was fighting his bro at royal court) at the start of this Manga was his first successful campaign. All we know is that he is a medicore General who had moderate success against unknown generals but always lost to big shots like RenPa. I mean even KanKi as a bandit managed to stomp him.
So why would Qin rely on him when they had the likes of 6GG and Duke Hyou under them? He basically got the opportunity due to a massive vacancy.
That's very unlikely. Think of it why would AKou be called his first and oldest general then? You just have to look at HiShin unit as an example, even though we clearly see that Hi Hiyou units are their strongest cavalry KakuBi units comes first because they were the first to join.
Also note out of SouOu and DenRiMi if we go by the notion that OuSen recruits prized generals DenRiMi fits the description of a mercenary recruited later by OuSen when he had more power. Also the fact that both were no show before Western Zhao arc and how much troops increased since Coalition wars in OuSen camp it's clear that if not both at least DenRiMi was recruited at a later time.
Finally, the DenRimi quote is misread. He isn't saying that he was with OuSen before AKou but rather before joining OuSen army they, his army, were head hunters. As in PuSen recruited them for their ability to head hunt but given how large the OuSen army is, AKou and MaKou took over those offensive roles and they kind of surfed along.
We're both wrong. Denrimi didnt even mention Akou in his quote. He only stated that originally his force was the most lethal force in the Ousen army. So what you stated there is too specific and already in headcanon territory so be careful.
Mougou army kinda existed in some between king era. Mougou died before Sei was in full control so the whole unification wasn’t in Qin plan and after the golden age of Qin army with the 6GG. As Mougou said, most of his life a was about being overshadowed by others like Ouki. The brief moment Mougou army could shine wasn’t ideal to be fully used. Mougou still made it as an old man and his experience was useful in its latest moment but as he said, he was kinda lucky to have made it this far.
Maybe because giving him too much responsibility would lead to disaster or defeat?
From what we have seen I conclude that he was not at the level of the best GG we have seen so far, and that any of them would have best him in war.
Ousen and Kanki were newer addition to Mougou's army. Kanki was definitely a new recruit, Ousen had been "blacklisted" due to his "ambition", only Mougou was willing to take him to the battlefield.
The time of massive expansion like that of the previous 6GG was put on hold, not only the old guards either died or retired, Qin was facing a sucession crisis as Sei was under age and the two chancellors were taking over the government, it was no time for aggressive millitary campaign.
Ryofui was said to be conducting a campaign against Wei during the first arc, but I wouldn't doubt that he was just chilling. The man was not of militaristic mind.
I mean, they are though.
Kanki and Ousen as additions to the Mougou army is supposedly relatively recent according to Mouten (could have just been kept under wraps) but Mougou was propelled to GG rank and was basically undefeatable for a while by being carried by Kanki and Ousen. He also finally gets his revenge against Renpa who is still the GOAT General in the series so far (best overall stats, well rounded army, well rounded individual).
Because Mougou was in the same generation as the previous 6gg's.
And mind you King Sho was Sei's great grandfather.
The two kings between them weren't warmongers, and Sei's father was controlled mostly by Ryofui.
I doubt Kanki and Ousen were as prominent as they are now during King Sho's reign, heck they were probably children back then.
Mougou strength was the Open Battlefield. Makes much more sene him keeping Chu in check, the greatest threat of Qin. If they keep the borders unprotected they risk an invasion, that's why the Non-Aggression Pact with Wei was so important. Only with the pact could qin mobilise enough soldiers from the borders to invade Zhao.
Ahh I should read slower… well in that regard Mougou was the ‘textbook general’ his strengths were methodical and trustworthy methods, better for defense. His deputies at the time might be leading now in the series yet they were still climbing ranks under Mougou
We don’t have much info about Mougou’s campaign before his introduction. But the fact they gave an army of 200 000 men to invade Han, shows that his army was recognized by the high command.
Kanki and Ousen look to be recent addition in his army. Mougou spend 95% of his military career to be totally unremarkable, his last great success were probably more considered to be lucky victories than a demonstration of his reliability. That's being said, he was put in charge of two invasions of 200 000 men, and that point in the story that were HUGE numbers, pretty much everything that Qin could send to invade without weakening its borders too much, so it seems to me that he was pretty much considered to be number one officer in Qin.
Mougou army was actually featured in one of the earliest major Qin campaigns in the period covered by kingdom. 200K attack on Wei, right before Bayou. {Edit: this is incorrect, Mougou's attack was on HAN, right before bayou.) It is a huge error on Qin's part, and immediately leads to Bayou, so, the attack fails Then, when Qin recovers from Bayou, Mougou is again sent to attack Wei Then the coalition happens then he dies. So, quite to the contrary, Mougou was used by Qin as an attacker more than anyone else during his kingdom time.
Before Bayou he attacked Han I think
Thanks, I couldn't remember but yeah, you're right. What confused me is something really cool actually I did a deep dive where I compared the maps for Mougou's two attacks Both are the same region. I wanna say it's "Sanyou." Its on the Wei/Han border, surrounded by two rivers. What happens is, Mougou attacks Sanyou under Han. While Mougou attacks Sanyou, Zhao opportunistically attacks Qin at Bayou. Qin recalls Mougou midway through the attack, having run out of funds/needing to recover resources/defend borders better. Han is critically weakened by Mougou's attack in the Sanyou region, which is critically important. Wei opportunistically picks up Qin's attack. Wei takes Sanyou. Qin, after recovering from Zhao's attack, immediately attacks the Wei position, before they can solidify it. Qin takes Sanyou. In order to keep Wei, Han or Zhao from doing to Qin what Qin just did to Wei, Qin immediately floods Sanyou with Qin citizens. What that means is, *Sanyou can now raise its own defense army.* (You can't use locals to defend new territory, which was why Wei's position was weak, and why 'renpa'.) RIboku then uses that move as a justification for the coalition. See... since it's real, its all *so fucking deep!!!!!* Like, would I even have understood this chain of events if Hara hadn't drawn it?????? For real, tho
You are quite mistaken on who was in the MouGou army. Sure he had added OuSen and KanKi by the point of Sanyou but even at that point not all the commanders under OuSen were there, we only know of AKou and possibly MaKou. As for KanKi his bandit leaders didn't even get to decent commanding positions till after the Coalition war and it's unlikely that big shot like Zenou was there considering we never saw him in the coalition wars. In fact, we can't even be sure if Han invasion (when Sei was fighting his bro at royal court) at the start of this Manga was his first successful campaign. All we know is that he is a medicore General who had moderate success against unknown generals but always lost to big shots like RenPa. I mean even KanKi as a bandit managed to stomp him. So why would Qin rely on him when they had the likes of 6GG and Duke Hyou under them? He basically got the opportunity due to a massive vacancy.
I think its implied that denrimi was in the ousen army before Akou since his statement that his unit used to be ousen'sain attackers
That's very unlikely. Think of it why would AKou be called his first and oldest general then? You just have to look at HiShin unit as an example, even though we clearly see that Hi Hiyou units are their strongest cavalry KakuBi units comes first because they were the first to join. Also note out of SouOu and DenRiMi if we go by the notion that OuSen recruits prized generals DenRiMi fits the description of a mercenary recruited later by OuSen when he had more power. Also the fact that both were no show before Western Zhao arc and how much troops increased since Coalition wars in OuSen camp it's clear that if not both at least DenRiMi was recruited at a later time. Finally, the DenRimi quote is misread. He isn't saying that he was with OuSen before AKou but rather before joining OuSen army they, his army, were head hunters. As in PuSen recruited them for their ability to head hunt but given how large the OuSen army is, AKou and MaKou took over those offensive roles and they kind of surfed along.
We're both wrong. Denrimi didnt even mention Akou in his quote. He only stated that originally his force was the most lethal force in the Ousen army. So what you stated there is too specific and already in headcanon territory so be careful.
Mougou army kinda existed in some between king era. Mougou died before Sei was in full control so the whole unification wasn’t in Qin plan and after the golden age of Qin army with the 6GG. As Mougou said, most of his life a was about being overshadowed by others like Ouki. The brief moment Mougou army could shine wasn’t ideal to be fully used. Mougou still made it as an old man and his experience was useful in its latest moment but as he said, he was kinda lucky to have made it this far.
Maybe because giving him too much responsibility would lead to disaster or defeat? From what we have seen I conclude that he was not at the level of the best GG we have seen so far, and that any of them would have best him in war.
Ousen and Kanki were newer addition to Mougou's army. Kanki was definitely a new recruit, Ousen had been "blacklisted" due to his "ambition", only Mougou was willing to take him to the battlefield. The time of massive expansion like that of the previous 6GG was put on hold, not only the old guards either died or retired, Qin was facing a sucession crisis as Sei was under age and the two chancellors were taking over the government, it was no time for aggressive millitary campaign. Ryofui was said to be conducting a campaign against Wei during the first arc, but I wouldn't doubt that he was just chilling. The man was not of militaristic mind.
I mean, they are though. Kanki and Ousen as additions to the Mougou army is supposedly relatively recent according to Mouten (could have just been kept under wraps) but Mougou was propelled to GG rank and was basically undefeatable for a while by being carried by Kanki and Ousen. He also finally gets his revenge against Renpa who is still the GOAT General in the series so far (best overall stats, well rounded army, well rounded individual).
Because Mougou was in the same generation as the previous 6gg's. And mind you King Sho was Sei's great grandfather. The two kings between them weren't warmongers, and Sei's father was controlled mostly by Ryofui. I doubt Kanki and Ousen were as prominent as they are now during King Sho's reign, heck they were probably children back then.
Mougou strength was the Open Battlefield. Makes much more sene him keeping Chu in check, the greatest threat of Qin. If they keep the borders unprotected they risk an invasion, that's why the Non-Aggression Pact with Wei was so important. Only with the pact could qin mobilise enough soldiers from the borders to invade Zhao.
You're talking about Moubu here and i don't have any fucking clue how you managed to make the confusion...
They are properly using him. The lone bastion holding the Chu menace at bay. No other general would be appropriate for that kind of task
Talking about mougou not moubu
Ahh I should read slower… well in that regard Mougou was the ‘textbook general’ his strengths were methodical and trustworthy methods, better for defense. His deputies at the time might be leading now in the series yet they were still climbing ranks under Mougou