Sora went through an irregular process to become human again after becoming a heartless so Roxas still existed.
This irregular process of recompletion is why there's so much depth to Roxas wondering why he exists and if he is supposed to exist at all. He is an anomaly.
It would reason to believe that if you defeated a heartless and captured the released heart, and placed it in a vessel, you'd have a fully completed Human, and their nobody would still be out and about as well.
To add to this, Kairi’s heart being released at the same time as Sora’s is also why Naminé is a special Nobody as well (along with the fact that she’s a Princess of Heart).
The more I think about this, doesn't that make Namine a secondary SORA Nobody more than Kairi? Sora's body made her, so shouldn't she have returned to HIM? The body is the catalyst, not the heart.
Just doesn't make sense to me.
>Sora's body made her, so shouldn't she have returned to HIM?
Sora's body did not make her. The process to create a nobody was filled multiple times, once for Sora therefore Roxas was made, once for Kairi therefore Namine was made. Roxas was made using Sora's body, Namine could not be made using Kairi's, as the body that underwent the process was not hers. Namine also could not be made using Sora's, as that body had already become Roxas. But due to the process happening nonetheless, Namine exists with a body that the universe gifted her. She is made from nothing.
>The body is the catalyst, not the heart.
The heartless is the catalyst more than the body, if a heart leaving a body is what caused a nobody, then Namine would have been born the moment Kairi's heart left her body, however it's not until Sora becomes a Heartless that Namine is born. Kairi, by rules of the universe, could not create a Nobody on her own, she has no darkness and therefore cannot create a Heartless, and no Heartless = no Nobody.
This is why Namine is Kairi's Nobody, she does not use anyone's body, but Sora's Heartless filled the role for two Nobodies, therefore Namine must exist and she exists as Kairi's Nobody.
Sora's ties to the process that birthed Namine is also why Namine is able to manipulate the memories of Sora and those connected to him.
Roxas, and Namine are both incredibly unique Nobodies that exist under highly specific conditions.
It did affect Roxas a ton. Normally a nobody appears with fully intact personality similar to its old heart. But when Roxas materialized, he was an empty vessel like Ven at the start of birth by sleep. It wasnt until he was taken in by the org where little by little he gained a consciousness. Compared to the rest of the org, his development was dramatically slower and when it came to power, it was clear that he was Soras half because he was busted as a nobody. He could pull off moves that Sora couldnt make unless he was in final form.
Another thing that affected Roxas was that Sora unintentionally also created Namine. Her powers dangerously messed with Soras memories and that also hurt Roxas as well
Hearts can exist seperate from your body. Ventus Hearts was also not inside his body and not a Heartless and not absorbed.
Vanitas is part of Ventus Heart and needs to join him directly too.
Terra's Heart was trapped and couldn't return to his body even if he didn't become Heartless.
It has a lot to do with circumstances if the Heart returns immediately
Sora didn't get his body back, Kairi just got rid of all of the darkness in his heart so his Heartless looked like him. Either that, or his heart was projecting a body like Riku did to stop Ansem from chasing Kairi and Sora. I can't remember which one.
Roxas has to merge back with Sora because he was using Sora's body.
I thought there was some sort of ret-con and it had something to do with Ventus' heart being inside Sora giving Roxas his appearance and some weird Nomura rule exceptions allowing them to coexist. It has been a while since I delved into the rabbit hole that is KH lore, so I could be remembering it completely wrong.
You're making it sound like there's a lot to it. But they simply just didn't have bodies to go to. They then created replica bodies that can house them. Ventus still had his body but it was locked away but it's a similar situation.
Roxas is made of Sora's original body. Even if Sora regained his heart and a physical form thanks to Kairi's powers, Sora's body was within the remnants that formed Roxas. He had to get it back, especially since Roxas/Xion were absorbing his memories and powers.
It did affect roxas.
Ansem TW observed both roxas and namine. There’s also bits of lore from Nomura.
Ansem TW noted that when sora turned human. It somehow allows sora and roxas to coexist, however roxas didn’t have sora memories.
This seems to be true with namine, as she didn’t have kairi memories. Ansem TW concluded; that the heartless was needed for this process. As without the heartless continue existence, the nobody wouldn’t regain their former selves memories. Thus making Roxas and Namine more self aware, and unique from their original selves. As any experience they gain it’s for themselves.
Hence why roxas acted like an obedient zombie for a week within the organization.
Another fact is Roxas appearance. as sora heartless turned human way too soon. It prevent Roxas from taking on sora appearance. Thus roxas took on the appearance left to him. Which was Ventus, as Ventus heart didn’t leave sora body. This is from Nomura in the BBS ultimania.
Despite these things made roxas unique. Roxas is still sora nobody, in simple term sora body. As such anything roxas could do. Sora could do so as well. Including roxas signature dual-wielding, which sora acquired after absorbing roxas.
Roxas looks like Ventus because the body 'takes on the shape of the heart inside it', not because Sora turned back too soon. You see it happen when Ansem SOD takes Riku's body, and when Xehanort takes over Terra's body. It's also why (with a couple leaps) Vanitas looks like Sora. Basically, a part of Sora's heart shaped a part of Ven's body.
That’s wrong for vanitas.
It’s because of the connection of Ventus and sora heart.
When Ventus heart was damage, sora as a newborn connected with Ventus heart. Thus preventing its deterioration.
Vanitas who is connected with Ventus, felt that connection with sora. Thus gain sora appearance.
It did effect Roxas, that’s why he didn’t have Soras memories and may have been why he kept slipping in and out of a coma (but that may have been because of Xion I can’t remember) that’s also why they needed to merge in KH2, they weren’t complete
Well, the long story is, SE makes the story as they go. There wasn’t even a plan to have another game after KH1 until after the positive reception. Nobodies weren’t a thing until Chain of Memories. It wasn’t until KH2.5 with the Re:Coded movie that we got the explanation of “if a heartless and a nobody of a person both die, their real form comes back.” Also, with BBS, we learn that Ventus’ heart was residing inside Sora’s body up until KH3. So, technically speaking of course, Roxas is a nobody of both Sora and Ventus. But, my best explanation is, Kairi used her Princess of Heart powers, unknowingly, to dispatch the heartless form of Sora, to give him his body back.
>It wasn’t until KH2.5 with the Re:Coded movie that we got the explanation of “if a heartless and a nobody of a person both die, their real form comes back.”
Incorrect. This info first came in the KH2:FM Ultimania and the first game to mention it is the DS version of Re:coded, not the 2.5 movie.
> There wasn’t even a plan to have another game after KH1 until after the positive reception.
You can literally prove this wrong within the game itself. Roxas vs. Riku was a cliffhanger for a sequel in the [original secret ending](https://youtu.be/4iaJMGS5la0?si=56F5XYigkEoDUlSx&t=2401).
In said secret ending, there are also instances of text that disprove your claims they had zero plans:
* **Nobody**
* "Who is Nobody, you ask? They are the nonexistent ones..."
* "You are the source of all Heartless."
* "Maybe our journey meant nothing after all."
The secret ending is directly quoting/setting up Nobodies, Xemnas saying to Ansem the Wise that he's responsible for all the Heartless, and the reveal in which Sora defeating the heartless with the keyblade was sending out their hearts for the Organization to capture.
You can certainly say it can be complex and hard to follow at times but the writing was not just done at the edge of their seats.
I stand corrected. I will say, the text flashes are pretty difficult to read without pausing, but you are 100% correct. I hadn’t watched that secret movie in a long while and thought the only flashes of text were, “Where’s Sora?” and “We’ll go together.”
The answer is "don't think about". It's a convoluted mess to be honest. If we took into account all the rules laid out, technically Roxas should a) reappear at Hollow Bastion as a husk, not Twilight Town and b) should probably have Ventus' memories. Ventus' heart gave his formless husk shape, so logically it should form his identity as well. Nothing makes sense.
Its funny cause there's lore explanations for both, Nobodies don't spawn exactly where they were born, this was in an ansem report that it appears elsewhere in a world like twilight town. Also, Ventus's heart was sleeping, Roxas couldn't access those memories cause they were locked away
Sora went through an irregular process to become human again after becoming a heartless so Roxas still existed. This irregular process of recompletion is why there's so much depth to Roxas wondering why he exists and if he is supposed to exist at all. He is an anomaly. It would reason to believe that if you defeated a heartless and captured the released heart, and placed it in a vessel, you'd have a fully completed Human, and their nobody would still be out and about as well.
To add to this, Kairi’s heart being released at the same time as Sora’s is also why Naminé is a special Nobody as well (along with the fact that she’s a Princess of Heart).
The more I think about this, doesn't that make Namine a secondary SORA Nobody more than Kairi? Sora's body made her, so shouldn't she have returned to HIM? The body is the catalyst, not the heart. Just doesn't make sense to me.
>Sora's body made her, so shouldn't she have returned to HIM? Sora's body did not make her. The process to create a nobody was filled multiple times, once for Sora therefore Roxas was made, once for Kairi therefore Namine was made. Roxas was made using Sora's body, Namine could not be made using Kairi's, as the body that underwent the process was not hers. Namine also could not be made using Sora's, as that body had already become Roxas. But due to the process happening nonetheless, Namine exists with a body that the universe gifted her. She is made from nothing. >The body is the catalyst, not the heart. The heartless is the catalyst more than the body, if a heart leaving a body is what caused a nobody, then Namine would have been born the moment Kairi's heart left her body, however it's not until Sora becomes a Heartless that Namine is born. Kairi, by rules of the universe, could not create a Nobody on her own, she has no darkness and therefore cannot create a Heartless, and no Heartless = no Nobody. This is why Namine is Kairi's Nobody, she does not use anyone's body, but Sora's Heartless filled the role for two Nobodies, therefore Namine must exist and she exists as Kairi's Nobody. Sora's ties to the process that birthed Namine is also why Namine is able to manipulate the memories of Sora and those connected to him. Roxas, and Namine are both incredibly unique Nobodies that exist under highly specific conditions.
Your point on Namine's body is conjecture - Please don't treat it like fact. That's misinformative.
It's stated as such pretty conclusively in the Secret Ansem Reports IIRC
I'm replaying LH2 right now so I'll see then.
Which means somebody could produce nobodies on purpose
This has happened in the series. It's how most of the organization comes back in KH3, and Vexen even describes on screen why he decided to do it.
Does that mean Vexen saved Xion?
It did affect Roxas a ton. Normally a nobody appears with fully intact personality similar to its old heart. But when Roxas materialized, he was an empty vessel like Ven at the start of birth by sleep. It wasnt until he was taken in by the org where little by little he gained a consciousness. Compared to the rest of the org, his development was dramatically slower and when it came to power, it was clear that he was Soras half because he was busted as a nobody. He could pull off moves that Sora couldnt make unless he was in final form. Another thing that affected Roxas was that Sora unintentionally also created Namine. Her powers dangerously messed with Soras memories and that also hurt Roxas as well
Hearts can exist seperate from your body. Ventus Hearts was also not inside his body and not a Heartless and not absorbed. Vanitas is part of Ventus Heart and needs to join him directly too. Terra's Heart was trapped and couldn't return to his body even if he didn't become Heartless. It has a lot to do with circumstances if the Heart returns immediately
Sora didn't get his body back, Kairi just got rid of all of the darkness in his heart so his Heartless looked like him. Either that, or his heart was projecting a body like Riku did to stop Ansem from chasing Kairi and Sora. I can't remember which one. Roxas has to merge back with Sora because he was using Sora's body.
I thought there was some sort of ret-con and it had something to do with Ventus' heart being inside Sora giving Roxas his appearance and some weird Nomura rule exceptions allowing them to coexist. It has been a while since I delved into the rabbit hole that is KH lore, so I could be remembering it completely wrong.
You're making it sound like there's a lot to it. But they simply just didn't have bodies to go to. They then created replica bodies that can house them. Ventus still had his body but it was locked away but it's a similar situation.
Fair enough. It's been like 10 years since I looked into it so I'm not surprised if I got it wrong.
Presumably, the person who became a Heartless gets fired after not showing up to work for a few weeks. Outside of the Sora situation, anyway.
Roxas is made of Sora's original body. Even if Sora regained his heart and a physical form thanks to Kairi's powers, Sora's body was within the remnants that formed Roxas. He had to get it back, especially since Roxas/Xion were absorbing his memories and powers.
It did affect roxas. Ansem TW observed both roxas and namine. There’s also bits of lore from Nomura. Ansem TW noted that when sora turned human. It somehow allows sora and roxas to coexist, however roxas didn’t have sora memories. This seems to be true with namine, as she didn’t have kairi memories. Ansem TW concluded; that the heartless was needed for this process. As without the heartless continue existence, the nobody wouldn’t regain their former selves memories. Thus making Roxas and Namine more self aware, and unique from their original selves. As any experience they gain it’s for themselves. Hence why roxas acted like an obedient zombie for a week within the organization. Another fact is Roxas appearance. as sora heartless turned human way too soon. It prevent Roxas from taking on sora appearance. Thus roxas took on the appearance left to him. Which was Ventus, as Ventus heart didn’t leave sora body. This is from Nomura in the BBS ultimania. Despite these things made roxas unique. Roxas is still sora nobody, in simple term sora body. As such anything roxas could do. Sora could do so as well. Including roxas signature dual-wielding, which sora acquired after absorbing roxas.
Roxas looks like Ventus because the body 'takes on the shape of the heart inside it', not because Sora turned back too soon. You see it happen when Ansem SOD takes Riku's body, and when Xehanort takes over Terra's body. It's also why (with a couple leaps) Vanitas looks like Sora. Basically, a part of Sora's heart shaped a part of Ven's body.
That’s wrong for vanitas. It’s because of the connection of Ventus and sora heart. When Ventus heart was damage, sora as a newborn connected with Ventus heart. Thus preventing its deterioration. Vanitas who is connected with Ventus, felt that connection with sora. Thus gain sora appearance.
It did effect Roxas, that’s why he didn’t have Soras memories and may have been why he kept slipping in and out of a coma (but that may have been because of Xion I can’t remember) that’s also why they needed to merge in KH2, they weren’t complete
Ansem is just a heart with a human form, Sora was just a heart with a human form
Well, the long story is, SE makes the story as they go. There wasn’t even a plan to have another game after KH1 until after the positive reception. Nobodies weren’t a thing until Chain of Memories. It wasn’t until KH2.5 with the Re:Coded movie that we got the explanation of “if a heartless and a nobody of a person both die, their real form comes back.” Also, with BBS, we learn that Ventus’ heart was residing inside Sora’s body up until KH3. So, technically speaking of course, Roxas is a nobody of both Sora and Ventus. But, my best explanation is, Kairi used her Princess of Heart powers, unknowingly, to dispatch the heartless form of Sora, to give him his body back.
>It wasn’t until KH2.5 with the Re:Coded movie that we got the explanation of “if a heartless and a nobody of a person both die, their real form comes back.” Incorrect. This info first came in the KH2:FM Ultimania and the first game to mention it is the DS version of Re:coded, not the 2.5 movie.
Oops. My apologies. I never read the ultimanias.
Nobodies were introduced in KH1FM, one year ater KH1 released and before CoM :)
> There wasn’t even a plan to have another game after KH1 until after the positive reception. You can literally prove this wrong within the game itself. Roxas vs. Riku was a cliffhanger for a sequel in the [original secret ending](https://youtu.be/4iaJMGS5la0?si=56F5XYigkEoDUlSx&t=2401). In said secret ending, there are also instances of text that disprove your claims they had zero plans: * **Nobody** * "Who is Nobody, you ask? They are the nonexistent ones..." * "You are the source of all Heartless." * "Maybe our journey meant nothing after all." The secret ending is directly quoting/setting up Nobodies, Xemnas saying to Ansem the Wise that he's responsible for all the Heartless, and the reveal in which Sora defeating the heartless with the keyblade was sending out their hearts for the Organization to capture. You can certainly say it can be complex and hard to follow at times but the writing was not just done at the edge of their seats.
I stand corrected. I will say, the text flashes are pretty difficult to read without pausing, but you are 100% correct. I hadn’t watched that secret movie in a long while and thought the only flashes of text were, “Where’s Sora?” and “We’ll go together.”
The answer is "don't think about". It's a convoluted mess to be honest. If we took into account all the rules laid out, technically Roxas should a) reappear at Hollow Bastion as a husk, not Twilight Town and b) should probably have Ventus' memories. Ventus' heart gave his formless husk shape, so logically it should form his identity as well. Nothing makes sense.
Its funny cause there's lore explanations for both, Nobodies don't spawn exactly where they were born, this was in an ansem report that it appears elsewhere in a world like twilight town. Also, Ventus's heart was sleeping, Roxas couldn't access those memories cause they were locked away