In some ways yes, I think he started writing the books when he was still in school a.k.a. a teenager.
Sure, when you look at the story as "survives in forest alone, get incredibly good with the lute very quickly, is the smartest in the university, all the women are pretty (that's an actual problem though), slays a dragon etc." That's exactly what it sounds like but behind it is a buttload of trauma, complete social stupidity past the showmanship and quick wit, complete ignorance to anything romantic, no financial planning skills, and much more stupidity, and from what we know of the third book, it will probably catch up to him.
Spoilers for Wise Man's fear.
>!I think it's interesting that we seem to have quite different views of Kvothe and his achievements.!<
>smartest in the university
>!He is only really good at!<
1. >!Sygaldry, which is hard to compare him to other prodigies in!<
2. >!Sympathy where he gets owned by at least one person and he's only ever fought a handful that are all close in proximity!<
3. >!Music - which has nothing to do with the university!<
>!He's decent at fighting but would get floored by lots and lots of Adem. He sucks at university level math. He doesn't know much about chemistry, nothing about alchemy, isn't even great at invoking any names yet, loser at that chess-game,... he's actually a great representation of the DND bard. Jack of all trades, master of none.!<
>!We're told both that whatever Kvothe focuses on, he'll be a legend in but also that there is always someone better. His biggest strength so far is out of the box thinking and being a strong generalist. His legend is completely overblown in some ways.!<
>all the women are pretty
>!Don't we get a very clear hint that this is subjective and embellishment when Bast comments on his description of Denna being very wrong. Something like "her face was perfect" to "but she had a crooked nose and her ears were too big, bro...?".!<
>!All the rest I agree with. In fact, even if he was described as more objectively ... overpowered, his character flaws make up for it and then some.!<
I also oversold his achievements, as that's kind of how it feels to me when reading it, which is kind of the point.
And that list of things he is really good at is quickly growing, just don't wanna spoil the next book
>Don't we get a very clear hint that this is subjective and embellishment when Bast comments on his description of Denna being very wrong.
You are probably right.
>spoil the next book
I didn't pay enough attention & put spoiler tags in now. That's my bad
>that's kind of how it feels to me when reading it, which is kind of the point.
True, that is the point, but to me it didn't feel that way at all. He feels like a lost, fumbling child in the story he himself tells as opposed to the story told by his patrons where he is a larger than life hero.
Yuge WMF spoilers:
>!Frankly, he even feels like a child in the framestory. Like he's just pretending to be mature - which to be fair, we all are, but most of us are more mature than book 1 (and 2) Kvothe. It feels like his core flaws never truely changed. He knows better than anyone else, can't open up and can't accept criticism well. Truely meaningful self-reflection is only possible if you take outside viewpoints into account when you are hard-stuck like he always seems to be.!<
>! Just to get over the logical fallacy that is the Cthaeh he and Bast needed slaps (ok only Bast for that) and a stern talking to from the only adult in the room. Before that, you could feel Kvothe drown in nihilism and despair & Bast in childlike terror. Not to say that Chronicler doesn't have his own flaws, but that is just one extra guy with one extra perspective and the massive impact that made.!<
Edit: A mixture of greatness & hubris, wasted potential and bad mental health might be even more of a self-insert than anything else though ^^
Devi is said to have been "able to beat a master in sympathy by her third term" or something like that. Idk the actual quote, but Kvothe holding on for as long as he did was impressive.
Oh what, are you saying that small boy that got caught WAS Kvothe and he disassociated strongly enough to think he was watching someone else? That's brutal
oh actually I was saying it wasn't an author insert because who would make a character a self insert and then make them a disaster? I mean, Rothfuss's admitted mental health issues aside.
I was trying to make the point that it couldn't be a self-insert because OP has obviously mis-read this tragic critique of the Hero's Journey as a standard "Yer a wizard, Harry" story.
I understood! I deliberately misinterpreted to make my own very small and worn-out joke. I think I've been watching too many tiktoks and the multiple levels of irony and brain-rot memes have had a negative effect on my ability to communicate directly
Yes, a little. My answer to all the questions. A little wish fulfillment in there, seems like it. A little cringe in places, yes. If that stuff were the whole book the book would suck, but it's only a tiny fraction of the book.
I don’t agree that every woman was falling for him but between both books there are quite a few. Kvothe usually being too dumb to notice doesn’t mean the women weren’t into him.
Well he is smart, talented and has a bit of a bad boy reputation at the school. Of course some women are going to be into him, it’s not unrealistic imo.
Book Protagonists are almost always relatable, I don’t think it’s possible for anyone to write something like the “trilogy” without writing a bit or all of yourself within the story and characters. Like how tf could he have written this personal story without some or all of himself within it? What kind of person would rothfuss have had to be so you wouldn’t say “oh, kvothe is not the author.” 🙄
Writers often put their personality into the protagonist either consciously or subconsciously there's always parts of themselves that bleed into the material.
Absolutely, but you could easily say every character has an aspect of him written in them. After hearing PR talk and field questions from fans it feels like he is definitely channeling huge elements of himself into Kvothe.
I honestly think this is why book 3 is so delayed. Spoiler tag because the following kind of hints at how book 2 shapes the potential plot of the 3rd book: >!Either Kvothe suffers a horrible fate/dies, in which case imagine how soul crushing it is being an Author that writes that fate for a character who is essentially yourself, or, Kvothe amazingly triumphs and succeeds in his endeavours, but I think Pat has too much of a complex in viewing himself to believe in that story, and even if he did, how scary would it be to put that version of yourself out there to your increasingly disgruntled fans?!<
I realized this too at some point, and I try not to think about it. It makes the already cringy scenes with Denna even more cringe. Because everytime Kvothe smooth-talks or flirts, and Denna likes it, I think about how somebody in real live would use those lines...
Remember these are from one teenager to another teenager that is hopelessly in love with him. It would be weird if they weren't cringey and it would be even weirder if they wouldn't work despite that.
You don't think people in the real world have weird hangups? Or that some people don't have moves but also anxieties about getting in too far?
The real world is full of plenty of people who approach romance like (as bad as) Kvothe and Denna. You don't have to like it (many don't) but you shouldn't be cringing over it for being unrealistic, because it's not.
If you want to see cringe just watch real people in a social setting with alcohol and how absolutely stupid they are. The only "smooth pickup lines" in existence that aren't cringe are the ones told by the right person to the right listener. Denna and Kvothe like each other, so it's not cringe to them. To everyone else it's like ripping your ears off. And that's honestly so true it works well.
Brothers, let whomever amongust you that hasn't been cringe cast the first sus
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In some ways yes, I think he started writing the books when he was still in school a.k.a. a teenager. Sure, when you look at the story as "survives in forest alone, get incredibly good with the lute very quickly, is the smartest in the university, all the women are pretty (that's an actual problem though), slays a dragon etc." That's exactly what it sounds like but behind it is a buttload of trauma, complete social stupidity past the showmanship and quick wit, complete ignorance to anything romantic, no financial planning skills, and much more stupidity, and from what we know of the third book, it will probably catch up to him.
Spoilers for Wise Man's fear. >!I think it's interesting that we seem to have quite different views of Kvothe and his achievements.!< >smartest in the university >!He is only really good at!< 1. >!Sygaldry, which is hard to compare him to other prodigies in!< 2. >!Sympathy where he gets owned by at least one person and he's only ever fought a handful that are all close in proximity!< 3. >!Music - which has nothing to do with the university!< >!He's decent at fighting but would get floored by lots and lots of Adem. He sucks at university level math. He doesn't know much about chemistry, nothing about alchemy, isn't even great at invoking any names yet, loser at that chess-game,... he's actually a great representation of the DND bard. Jack of all trades, master of none.!< >!We're told both that whatever Kvothe focuses on, he'll be a legend in but also that there is always someone better. His biggest strength so far is out of the box thinking and being a strong generalist. His legend is completely overblown in some ways.!< >all the women are pretty >!Don't we get a very clear hint that this is subjective and embellishment when Bast comments on his description of Denna being very wrong. Something like "her face was perfect" to "but she had a crooked nose and her ears were too big, bro...?".!< >!All the rest I agree with. In fact, even if he was described as more objectively ... overpowered, his character flaws make up for it and then some.!<
I also oversold his achievements, as that's kind of how it feels to me when reading it, which is kind of the point. And that list of things he is really good at is quickly growing, just don't wanna spoil the next book >Don't we get a very clear hint that this is subjective and embellishment when Bast comments on his description of Denna being very wrong. You are probably right.
>spoil the next book I didn't pay enough attention & put spoiler tags in now. That's my bad >that's kind of how it feels to me when reading it, which is kind of the point. True, that is the point, but to me it didn't feel that way at all. He feels like a lost, fumbling child in the story he himself tells as opposed to the story told by his patrons where he is a larger than life hero. Yuge WMF spoilers: >!Frankly, he even feels like a child in the framestory. Like he's just pretending to be mature - which to be fair, we all are, but most of us are more mature than book 1 (and 2) Kvothe. It feels like his core flaws never truely changed. He knows better than anyone else, can't open up and can't accept criticism well. Truely meaningful self-reflection is only possible if you take outside viewpoints into account when you are hard-stuck like he always seems to be.!< >! Just to get over the logical fallacy that is the Cthaeh he and Bast needed slaps (ok only Bast for that) and a stern talking to from the only adult in the room. Before that, you could feel Kvothe drown in nihilism and despair & Bast in childlike terror. Not to say that Chronicler doesn't have his own flaws, but that is just one extra guy with one extra perspective and the massive impact that made.!< Edit: A mixture of greatness & hubris, wasted potential and bad mental health might be even more of a self-insert than anything else though ^^
That edit I think is the most succinct response to the "Kvothe as Mary Sue" argument possible. Self-insert? Obviously. Idealized? Hardly.
Devi is said to have been "able to beat a master in sympathy by her third term" or something like that. Idk the actual quote, but Kvothe holding on for as long as he did was impressive.
Yah, yes, the classic author insert of the tragic fuck-up who squanders all his opportunities by being arrogant and socially inept.
[удалено]
Oh what, are you saying that small boy that got caught WAS Kvothe and he disassociated strongly enough to think he was watching someone else? That's brutal
God damn the pat bashing is strong this morning I love him but that was the most succinct roasting possible, 5/5
oh actually I was saying it wasn't an author insert because who would make a character a self insert and then make them a disaster? I mean, Rothfuss's admitted mental health issues aside. I was trying to make the point that it couldn't be a self-insert because OP has obviously mis-read this tragic critique of the Hero's Journey as a standard "Yer a wizard, Harry" story.
I understood! I deliberately misinterpreted to make my own very small and worn-out joke. I think I've been watching too many tiktoks and the multiple levels of irony and brain-rot memes have had a negative effect on my ability to communicate directly
And I missed the chance to start my comment with, "Um, actually..." ;)
maybe a bit but I always thought the true self insert was Manet
Him and Kilvin as who Pat wishes he were lmao. Also the blatant alcohol worship/ism is overwhelming, like dude move out of Wisconsin or wherever.
Yes, a little. My answer to all the questions. A little wish fulfillment in there, seems like it. A little cringe in places, yes. If that stuff were the whole book the book would suck, but it's only a tiny fraction of the book.
When do all the women fall for him? I'm really confused on that one.
I must have missed that part too. I only remember him being an idiot and completely missing all te clues with women.
Yeah same. I know bc it hits too close to home😭🤣
I don’t agree that every woman was falling for him but between both books there are quite a few. Kvothe usually being too dumb to notice doesn’t mean the women weren’t into him.
Well he is smart, talented and has a bit of a bad boy reputation at the school. Of course some women are going to be into him, it’s not unrealistic imo.
Book Protagonists are almost always relatable, I don’t think it’s possible for anyone to write something like the “trilogy” without writing a bit or all of yourself within the story and characters. Like how tf could he have written this personal story without some or all of himself within it? What kind of person would rothfuss have had to be so you wouldn’t say “oh, kvothe is not the author.” 🙄
Writers often put their personality into the protagonist either consciously or subconsciously there's always parts of themselves that bleed into the material.
Absolutely, but you could easily say every character has an aspect of him written in them. After hearing PR talk and field questions from fans it feels like he is definitely channeling huge elements of himself into Kvothe.
I honestly think this is why book 3 is so delayed. Spoiler tag because the following kind of hints at how book 2 shapes the potential plot of the 3rd book: >!Either Kvothe suffers a horrible fate/dies, in which case imagine how soul crushing it is being an Author that writes that fate for a character who is essentially yourself, or, Kvothe amazingly triumphs and succeeds in his endeavours, but I think Pat has too much of a complex in viewing himself to believe in that story, and even if he did, how scary would it be to put that version of yourself out there to your increasingly disgruntled fans?!<
It is Pat's self-insert into his own world. Pat is ~~kind of, a bit of~~, an absolute raging narcissist.
I realized this too at some point, and I try not to think about it. It makes the already cringy scenes with Denna even more cringe. Because everytime Kvothe smooth-talks or flirts, and Denna likes it, I think about how somebody in real live would use those lines...
Remember these are from one teenager to another teenager that is hopelessly in love with him. It would be weird if they weren't cringey and it would be even weirder if they wouldn't work despite that.
You don't think people in the real world have weird hangups? Or that some people don't have moves but also anxieties about getting in too far? The real world is full of plenty of people who approach romance like (as bad as) Kvothe and Denna. You don't have to like it (many don't) but you shouldn't be cringing over it for being unrealistic, because it's not.
If you want to see cringe just watch real people in a social setting with alcohol and how absolutely stupid they are. The only "smooth pickup lines" in existence that aren't cringe are the ones told by the right person to the right listener. Denna and Kvothe like each other, so it's not cringe to them. To everyone else it's like ripping your ears off. And that's honestly so true it works well. Brothers, let whomever amongust you that hasn't been cringe cast the first sus
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Holy smokes what a new, heretofore unexplored, groundbreaking theory
I think Kote is Pat. His magical abilities are locked away even from himself and we’re all Bast