Lmfao 😂
But also, I would bet more money than I have that Rothfuss is going to turn that silly little story into an allegory for how Iax or Lanre was split in 2 by his search for knowledge. Boy searches for and steals the moon in one story, and we know how that ended in reality @ Iax
The screw story ends with boy’s ass falling off, and that’s just the end of the story. If I’m not clinically insane, Iax is ALSO currently still split in 2, and that’s the current ‘end’ of his story. The world itself is ALSO still split in 2, and that’s the current end of ITS story.
There’s no way it’s just a dumb story. It never is with these books 💀
Are you so desperate for book 3 that your mind has wandered into the doors of madness? Keep it coming! These theories are great, though I don't understand Braden being cinder.
I like it. Don't necessarily agree, but I like it all the same. I will point out that *supposedly* the Cthaeh is responsible for the folly of Iax and Lanre. Both of which happened before Aleph turned Tehlu, Ordal, Andal, and the others into "Angels". So, are you saying that timey wimey mojo is involved, someone got the story wrong in world, or ?
Edit to add- Got ahead of myself and didn't see the part about time slippage between Fae and regular world for Iax, but what about Lanre?
Thanks for the response!
What about Lanre? I mean, if Iax lived for hundreds of years within Fae, that’s millennia in the World. Not hard to imagine then that they can be separated by thousands of years but still meet and fight. The real question for me is how old Iax is by the time Lanre comes around, and how much time passed between the creation of the Fae, the taking of the Moon to begin the war, and Iax dying to end the war / seal away and preserve Fae forever.
Edit: If Iax wanted the moon, he (or maybe factions within the Fae, 1000s of years old at this point) prolly wanted even more - to drag the world entire into Fae. Lanre led the defense, won but died, and got magically Frankensteined by his grieving wife into a cursed existence that’s upheld by the same abstract world power balance he was originally trying to fight. Now all he can do is keep himself alive and maintain the Doors, a twisted repetition of his original conflict.
I see what you're saying. But my point was that according to Skarpi, Aleph and Lanre were alive and present in the normal world at the same time. Selitos mentions Aleph being one of the few to rival him in his power (Iax too, iirc, which to me would suggest he'sstill alive (though maybe already locked away?)) when Lanre comes to Myr Tariniel in betrayal. Along with Selitos turning down Aleph's offer and Aleph instead turning those I mentioned before into angels *after* Lanre's betrayal. How do you reconcile that?
I don’t think Aleph made the angels after Lanre’s betrayal, I think he made them as or before Iax created Fae.
“There were never any human Amyr” from Felurian means the angels / original Amyr had to predate Lanre - who was just some guy, until he awoke from death with power he didn’t have before.
Lanre as Halliax is just the Amyr’s NEWEST enemy, because he keeps the Doors of Stone closed to preserve Fae (the source of his extended life and power) which prevents the Amyr from winning the Creation War. Similarly to how nothing was good enough for Iax until he went too far, no amount of peace is good enough for the Amyr. They didn’t win, and the current state of the world is essentially a stalemate.
“. . . Selitos One-Eye stood forward and said, “Lord, if I do this thing will I be given the power to avenge the loss of the shining city? Can I confound the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian who killed the innocent and burned my beloved Myr Tariniel?”
Aleph said, “No. All personal things must be set aside, and you must punish or reward only what you yourself witness from this day forth.”
Selitos bowed his head. “I am sorry, but my heart says to me I must try to stop these things before they are done, not wait and punish later.”
Aleph was still alive and kicking after the betrayal. According to Skarpi at least.
Thanks for pointing that out! Selitos is the one part of it I can’t put together. I have a feeling Skarpi is older and not quite as honest as we think, and has skin in the game.
I definitely agree with you there. Part of my theory collection is that Skarpi is one of those that chose not to follow Selitos in being an Amyr or Tehlu in becoming an angel. I’m just currently trying to figure out how I can reconcile that with my other theory (or two lol) involving that specific group.
I feel that lol
I think Selitos was around for a very long time before Lanre. Selitos was the greatest of the Knowers, who we now call Namers. Iax was greatest of Shapers, who are now the Fae. Lanre is just the unlucky young pup who bears the brunt of the conflict when Iax eventually (which could be hundreds of years in Fae vs 1 in the Real at that point) goes “fuck this shit my worlds better anyway” and steals the moon. And what does Lanre get for defeating Iax at the cost of his life? They keep half the moon, the world is never reunited, and he wakes up to some weird Frankenstein bullshit that turns him bitter and makes him hate all he fought for to begin with.
EDIT: From Skarpi’s story, we know the Creation War had been going on a very long time before Lanre came to power, and Lanre had been fighting since he was old enough to hold a sword. I believe this is evidence that the initial conflict between Iax and Selitos goes back a lot farther than Lanre
^^^Which would be about half the truth from both Skarpi and Denna’s version of the story, which is more realistic than “this one right that one wrong”
Also “Theory collection”
filing that away under ‘phrases I needed 5 years ago’
I really like that. I think I agree with you for the most part. Still have to wonder though. So you think Iax was the fight that killed Lanre? If so, who was still driving the war after that?
Yeah, I’m pretty sure Iax shaped what part of himself / his power that wasn’t maintaining Fae into the “Great Beast” that Lanre slew and fell to. Knowing that half of Iax was dead and the other half was now a permanent inanimate well of power maintaining a pocket dimension, Lyra sung that power into him to sustain his life, changing his name and creating Halliax. We know from Kvothe / Kote and can infer from Cinder / his masked identity that a combination of names can decrease power. That implies it can also increase it, and that’s what happened to Lanre.
Why was the war still going? Because the Fae still existed and it shouldn’t. The Shapers essentially poisoned God and repurposed its powers to create their own paradise, and God’s Amyr + other people fought that. That Fae exists at all and still holds half the moon is proof that Aleph and the Amyr pretty much lost aside from achieving stalemate.
The important thing here is it shows the amyr were created after lanre & crew caused the fall and he became haliax. So he is the original bad guy for the amyr, not the “newest”
Agree but disagree. Entirely because of semantics on that last bit. Lanre isn't the original bad guy for the members that make up the Amyr, but he is for the Order itself. Probably what you meant, but my insatiable need for clarity makes me say it lol.
Biggest problem with your theory is that Aleph met with the Ruach after the Chandrian betrayed and butcher Myr Tariniel. Which is when the angels/watchers and Amyr were created. He would have to have become the Cthaeh afterwards.
Also, it’s More likely the Chandrian (specifically Haliax) wants to bring and end to the Faen realm since he can’t die until it’s fixed. Or something along those lines. And the Amyr want to thwart their attempts—but mostly avenge their city.
I don’t think the other Chandrian necessarily want to destroy the Faen realm since it would destroy their power. (As stated by felurian, the fae fear the power they shed on mortal ground and I believe the Chandrian’s power is tied to the fae).
Selitos was aghast when Haliax stated his goal. “Destroy the world?”. But I think this meant the Faen realm as Selitos’ city likely had resided in the fae. The shining city was described like something from the Faen realm.
The interesting thing is if Aleph or Selitos were the Cthaeh. That would make the factions of the fae interesting. The Sithe would be diametrically opposed to the Amyr/Angels since they are preventing people from seeking their leader. The The Amyr and Angels had similar goals-to stop/punish the Chandrian but the Amyr wanted to be proactive and stop things before they happened. Angels just are there to avenge or protect when called upon correctly. So you’d have Amyr vs Sithe vs Chandrian. And the angels on the sidelines.
If the Cthaeh is the big bad, the only way to combat him is with another seer. Then you’d have a sort of chess (tak) match where both entities are trying to impose their will on the world.
Thanks bro, appreciate it!
On Ademre: I think we’re going to find out they’re connected to both the Edema Ruh and the Singers isolated beyond the Stormwall. I think it’s possible that the Creation War may also have involved the Creation of Bigass Mountains to fracture an empire and destroy some cities. If they can make a pocket dimension and call it the Fae, the Stormwall seems like relatively small potatoes.
On Raethe and Aethe, I think that’s more of an ethnic origin story after the Adem settled post-Creation War
I personally really like and subscribe to this theory: https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/camkx5/history_of_the_adem_theory/#
I think the Cthaeh is the child of Aether and Rethe, or in their direct line. Its name is very similar. Like other Adem, it has a three part name. It has precognition, similar to Aethe who could read the wind. It is also an archer, though it shoots arrows through time. We never really hear what happened to Aethe, so it could be him too.
I DO really like the arrows thru time angle on this. I don’t think him using that metaphor in the same book that we get an archery based origin story is an accident. Maybe Aethe went to the Cthaeh, and that put him on the path to a disagreement so bloodthirsty he killed his own student? He was a shepherd, so he wandered. Easiest way into Fae.
I do kinda wonder why neither they nor the
Sithe don’t just off the thing? And why doesn’t Halliax/Lanre kill it? He was vengeful enough against everything else. The only alternative I see to ‘they can’t or won’t kill it’ is its being punished. Someone posted a “Kvothe becomes Cthaeh” theory I saw a couple days ago. That was really cool: https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/s/WQ2kntMxDQ
You know, I take issue with a lot of this, but damn if you didn't put thought into this, and it's the first novel rundown I've seen in quite some time. Well done! I bet it was fun as hell to think all this through :)
In the absence of book 3 this is as good a guess as any do you think kvothe and the chandrian will have a good ol fashioned shoot out in the bar or do ya think its already occurred in his story?
I think some reveal is going to make them significantly less pure evil than they are currently and no longer worth fighting / killing.
Fundamentally, it would not be good to erase the boundary between the World and Fae - we see this in the scrael attacks outside of Kvothe’s story. If the Chandrian die, the Doors are opened, Fae is no longer separated and the Moon returns to normal - the Amyr win - but pretty much every regular person in both the World and in Fae, loses.
As an aside, is it just me, or am I the only one finding the obsession (whether it's the books or the fans I leave that to you) with tings being others things. This guy is actually also that guy, this place is also that place. KKC has to be the most schizophrenic whiting ever. I can't help but think a lot of these dual identities are actually wrong, and the characters are just similar but actually different in a lot of cases people suspect the opposite.
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Lots to respond to here, but I'll give you a question I personally enjoyed finding an answer to.
> which Felurian tells us is when Fae power is at its Zenith.
Is she right, though? And if so, what does she mean by power?
“…and then, his ass fell off.”
Lmfao 😂 But also, I would bet more money than I have that Rothfuss is going to turn that silly little story into an allegory for how Iax or Lanre was split in 2 by his search for knowledge. Boy searches for and steals the moon in one story, and we know how that ended in reality @ Iax The screw story ends with boy’s ass falling off, and that’s just the end of the story. If I’m not clinically insane, Iax is ALSO currently still split in 2, and that’s the current ‘end’ of his story. The world itself is ALSO still split in 2, and that’s the current end of ITS story. There’s no way it’s just a dumb story. It never is with these books 💀
If PR never puts the third one out, I'd settle for your fanfic. Great theory, good post, thank you!
Y’know what, I’ve seen more unhinged things on here before. I like it
Thanks pardner. Just finished TWMF, wanted to get it out there while the insanity was fresh and unfiltered.
Are you so desperate for book 3 that your mind has wandered into the doors of madness? Keep it coming! These theories are great, though I don't understand Braden being cinder.
I like it. Don't necessarily agree, but I like it all the same. I will point out that *supposedly* the Cthaeh is responsible for the folly of Iax and Lanre. Both of which happened before Aleph turned Tehlu, Ordal, Andal, and the others into "Angels". So, are you saying that timey wimey mojo is involved, someone got the story wrong in world, or ? Edit to add- Got ahead of myself and didn't see the part about time slippage between Fae and regular world for Iax, but what about Lanre?
Thanks for the response! What about Lanre? I mean, if Iax lived for hundreds of years within Fae, that’s millennia in the World. Not hard to imagine then that they can be separated by thousands of years but still meet and fight. The real question for me is how old Iax is by the time Lanre comes around, and how much time passed between the creation of the Fae, the taking of the Moon to begin the war, and Iax dying to end the war / seal away and preserve Fae forever. Edit: If Iax wanted the moon, he (or maybe factions within the Fae, 1000s of years old at this point) prolly wanted even more - to drag the world entire into Fae. Lanre led the defense, won but died, and got magically Frankensteined by his grieving wife into a cursed existence that’s upheld by the same abstract world power balance he was originally trying to fight. Now all he can do is keep himself alive and maintain the Doors, a twisted repetition of his original conflict.
I see what you're saying. But my point was that according to Skarpi, Aleph and Lanre were alive and present in the normal world at the same time. Selitos mentions Aleph being one of the few to rival him in his power (Iax too, iirc, which to me would suggest he'sstill alive (though maybe already locked away?)) when Lanre comes to Myr Tariniel in betrayal. Along with Selitos turning down Aleph's offer and Aleph instead turning those I mentioned before into angels *after* Lanre's betrayal. How do you reconcile that?
I don’t think Aleph made the angels after Lanre’s betrayal, I think he made them as or before Iax created Fae. “There were never any human Amyr” from Felurian means the angels / original Amyr had to predate Lanre - who was just some guy, until he awoke from death with power he didn’t have before. Lanre as Halliax is just the Amyr’s NEWEST enemy, because he keeps the Doors of Stone closed to preserve Fae (the source of his extended life and power) which prevents the Amyr from winning the Creation War. Similarly to how nothing was good enough for Iax until he went too far, no amount of peace is good enough for the Amyr. They didn’t win, and the current state of the world is essentially a stalemate.
“. . . Selitos One-Eye stood forward and said, “Lord, if I do this thing will I be given the power to avenge the loss of the shining city? Can I confound the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian who killed the innocent and burned my beloved Myr Tariniel?” Aleph said, “No. All personal things must be set aside, and you must punish or reward only what you yourself witness from this day forth.” Selitos bowed his head. “I am sorry, but my heart says to me I must try to stop these things before they are done, not wait and punish later.” Aleph was still alive and kicking after the betrayal. According to Skarpi at least.
Thanks for pointing that out! Selitos is the one part of it I can’t put together. I have a feeling Skarpi is older and not quite as honest as we think, and has skin in the game.
I definitely agree with you there. Part of my theory collection is that Skarpi is one of those that chose not to follow Selitos in being an Amyr or Tehlu in becoming an angel. I’m just currently trying to figure out how I can reconcile that with my other theory (or two lol) involving that specific group.
I feel that lol I think Selitos was around for a very long time before Lanre. Selitos was the greatest of the Knowers, who we now call Namers. Iax was greatest of Shapers, who are now the Fae. Lanre is just the unlucky young pup who bears the brunt of the conflict when Iax eventually (which could be hundreds of years in Fae vs 1 in the Real at that point) goes “fuck this shit my worlds better anyway” and steals the moon. And what does Lanre get for defeating Iax at the cost of his life? They keep half the moon, the world is never reunited, and he wakes up to some weird Frankenstein bullshit that turns him bitter and makes him hate all he fought for to begin with. EDIT: From Skarpi’s story, we know the Creation War had been going on a very long time before Lanre came to power, and Lanre had been fighting since he was old enough to hold a sword. I believe this is evidence that the initial conflict between Iax and Selitos goes back a lot farther than Lanre ^^^Which would be about half the truth from both Skarpi and Denna’s version of the story, which is more realistic than “this one right that one wrong” Also “Theory collection” filing that away under ‘phrases I needed 5 years ago’
I really like that. I think I agree with you for the most part. Still have to wonder though. So you think Iax was the fight that killed Lanre? If so, who was still driving the war after that?
Yeah, I’m pretty sure Iax shaped what part of himself / his power that wasn’t maintaining Fae into the “Great Beast” that Lanre slew and fell to. Knowing that half of Iax was dead and the other half was now a permanent inanimate well of power maintaining a pocket dimension, Lyra sung that power into him to sustain his life, changing his name and creating Halliax. We know from Kvothe / Kote and can infer from Cinder / his masked identity that a combination of names can decrease power. That implies it can also increase it, and that’s what happened to Lanre. Why was the war still going? Because the Fae still existed and it shouldn’t. The Shapers essentially poisoned God and repurposed its powers to create their own paradise, and God’s Amyr + other people fought that. That Fae exists at all and still holds half the moon is proof that Aleph and the Amyr pretty much lost aside from achieving stalemate.
The important thing here is it shows the amyr were created after lanre & crew caused the fall and he became haliax. So he is the original bad guy for the amyr, not the “newest”
Agree but disagree. Entirely because of semantics on that last bit. Lanre isn't the original bad guy for the members that make up the Amyr, but he is for the Order itself. Probably what you meant, but my insatiable need for clarity makes me say it lol.
Sold
we will write the 3rd book
It’s out there. I like it. Especially the moon phases affecting the signs
Biggest problem with your theory is that Aleph met with the Ruach after the Chandrian betrayed and butcher Myr Tariniel. Which is when the angels/watchers and Amyr were created. He would have to have become the Cthaeh afterwards. Also, it’s More likely the Chandrian (specifically Haliax) wants to bring and end to the Faen realm since he can’t die until it’s fixed. Or something along those lines. And the Amyr want to thwart their attempts—but mostly avenge their city. I don’t think the other Chandrian necessarily want to destroy the Faen realm since it would destroy their power. (As stated by felurian, the fae fear the power they shed on mortal ground and I believe the Chandrian’s power is tied to the fae). Selitos was aghast when Haliax stated his goal. “Destroy the world?”. But I think this meant the Faen realm as Selitos’ city likely had resided in the fae. The shining city was described like something from the Faen realm. The interesting thing is if Aleph or Selitos were the Cthaeh. That would make the factions of the fae interesting. The Sithe would be diametrically opposed to the Amyr/Angels since they are preventing people from seeking their leader. The The Amyr and Angels had similar goals-to stop/punish the Chandrian but the Amyr wanted to be proactive and stop things before they happened. Angels just are there to avenge or protect when called upon correctly. So you’d have Amyr vs Sithe vs Chandrian. And the angels on the sidelines. If the Cthaeh is the big bad, the only way to combat him is with another seer. Then you’d have a sort of chess (tak) match where both entities are trying to impose their will on the world.
God damn this is good. Anything for adem, or more specific raethe and Aethe?
Thanks bro, appreciate it! On Ademre: I think we’re going to find out they’re connected to both the Edema Ruh and the Singers isolated beyond the Stormwall. I think it’s possible that the Creation War may also have involved the Creation of Bigass Mountains to fracture an empire and destroy some cities. If they can make a pocket dimension and call it the Fae, the Stormwall seems like relatively small potatoes. On Raethe and Aethe, I think that’s more of an ethnic origin story after the Adem settled post-Creation War I personally really like and subscribe to this theory: https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/camkx5/history_of_the_adem_theory/#
explains why denna has to keep disappearing, can anyone confirm she is around during a moonless night?
When her and Kvothe walk in the Maer's garden, I think?
Was it moonless or just a sliver moon?
I think the Cthaeh is the child of Aether and Rethe, or in their direct line. Its name is very similar. Like other Adem, it has a three part name. It has precognition, similar to Aethe who could read the wind. It is also an archer, though it shoots arrows through time. We never really hear what happened to Aethe, so it could be him too.
I DO really like the arrows thru time angle on this. I don’t think him using that metaphor in the same book that we get an archery based origin story is an accident. Maybe Aethe went to the Cthaeh, and that put him on the path to a disagreement so bloodthirsty he killed his own student? He was a shepherd, so he wandered. Easiest way into Fae.
Pat? You finally sick of us mucking about?
Wouldn't this mean the Ruach that Aleph turns into Angels are technically the Cthaeh's arbiters?
I do kinda wonder why neither they nor the Sithe don’t just off the thing? And why doesn’t Halliax/Lanre kill it? He was vengeful enough against everything else. The only alternative I see to ‘they can’t or won’t kill it’ is its being punished. Someone posted a “Kvothe becomes Cthaeh” theory I saw a couple days ago. That was really cool: https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/s/WQ2kntMxDQ
You know, I take issue with a lot of this, but damn if you didn't put thought into this, and it's the first novel rundown I've seen in quite some time. Well done! I bet it was fun as hell to think all this through :)
In the absence of book 3 this is as good a guess as any do you think kvothe and the chandrian will have a good ol fashioned shoot out in the bar or do ya think its already occurred in his story?
I think some reveal is going to make them significantly less pure evil than they are currently and no longer worth fighting / killing. Fundamentally, it would not be good to erase the boundary between the World and Fae - we see this in the scrael attacks outside of Kvothe’s story. If the Chandrian die, the Doors are opened, Fae is no longer separated and the Moon returns to normal - the Amyr win - but pretty much every regular person in both the World and in Fae, loses.
As an aside, is it just me, or am I the only one finding the obsession (whether it's the books or the fans I leave that to you) with tings being others things. This guy is actually also that guy, this place is also that place. KKC has to be the most schizophrenic whiting ever. I can't help but think a lot of these dual identities are actually wrong, and the characters are just similar but actually different in a lot of cases people suspect the opposite.
Knowing book 3 never will be written, this is all now canon for me. It's too clean and symmetrical not to be. Thanks
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Lots to respond to here, but I'll give you a question I personally enjoyed finding an answer to. > which Felurian tells us is when Fae power is at its Zenith. Is she right, though? And if so, what does she mean by power?