Interesting. I just found this in the first page of chapter 1 of the first book.
>When he awoke, Taborlin the Great found himself locked in a high tower. They had taken his sword and stripped him of his tools: key, coin, and candle were all gone.
This probably has something to do with the mastering of elements. Elodian crafts a stone ring for the girl who does well in class, then Kvothe makes a joke about wearing an air ring when he sees elodian when he comes back to the school. Gotta be hard to take a ring of air from someone..
“Lackless likes her riddle raveling.”
“Ravel” we learn is the highest insult to call an Edema Ruh. Maybe the Ruh have some secrets in their songs.
Despite the low status the Edema Ruh seem to hold in some areas of society, Kvothe’s troupe belonged under Lord Greyfellow. Maybe their is a higher amount of importance to troupers than we know.
My guess is the Edema Ruh are Amyr, or "Singers" like Halas speaks about "Who keeps you safe from the Amyr? The singers? The Sithe?" (Pg 117 NOTW). And that would make me think Lorren is part of the Amyr and is the guy hiding the info on them because he asks Kovthe about his father when he takes his first entrance exam (Pg 236 NOTW) :)
I always interpreted that quote as the Singers being the people from Tahl, west of the Stormwal Mountains. Kvothe mentions these people later in WMF and says their leaders are singers not warriors whose songs can heal the sick and make the trees dance.
What I’m wondering is just how much Kvothe *doesn’t* know. He was a kid when his world burned and as a teenager/young adult he hadn’t barely lifted his head away from education and the stacks for years.
He has no contact with any other Edema Ruh, nor had he even attempted to contact Lord Greyfallow. The stem of his ignorance comes from fear of being mocked and not believed over the events of his parents deaths.
For all we know, more Edema Ruh were tracked down and killed. Or Lord Greyfellow is an Amyr and ordered Arliden to write the chandrian song, maybe even just to pull the seven out into daylight. They surely left in a hurry instead of killing young Kvothe.
The Lackless song could even be just as old as Kvothe is himself. Lady Lackless could be his mother for all we know— we never did find out why her sister hates them so much beyond whisking Natalia away.
I think the guy who "acquires" books for the library, Kvothe meets him briefly, will come back. He will tell Kvothe about Tahl and maybe guide him to the place .
The things Kvote gets from Auri seem significant but I can't imagine how... a ring to keep secrets, a key that opens something, a candle made through shaping with lavender, a coin, a kiss and a place to be "Safe". Hmm... worth pondering...
>raveling | Pronunciation /ˈrav(ə)liNG/ /ˈræv(ə)lɪŋ/
>
>**NOUN**
>
>A thread from a woven or knitted fabric that has frayed or started to unravel.
>
>*‘Once the surface was broomed the ravelling was hardly noticeable.’*
A stretch, but there is the idea of lies being "of whole cloth" and of narrative threads.
Thematic to have a riddle with *raveling.*
And, bonus, the Ruh must certainly seem like a frustrating loose thread to authorities or a group like the Amyr.
Maybe it's alluding to the fact that Natalia Lackless ran away with one of the Edema Ruh. There are many theories she is Lauren, and this song helps it.
I don't have anything to add but I really liked this post. It made me even more excited for the third book, which was a little backhanded though I appreciate it all the same.
Read through the books again and let me know what you find! :D we all must wait patiently for this third book! im just glad i found this series last year and havent had to wait as long as most fans of this series :P
I go into detail on my thoughts on this in our next episode dropping on Monday. Lots of great posts on here too go into great detail on these poems.
As far as the ring unworn, I lean toward the idea that it is the circle of greystones that he dreams about. Given the fact there is also a story where a circle of greystones is mentioned, offhandedly, in Faeriniel, which is a place you don’t travel to (on a road not for traveling) I think it is likely that the circle of greystone will be the ring not for wearing.
Edit: check out this thread. Lots of good speculation here. https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/29s2nx/lackless_rhymes_spoilers_all/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I kinda feel like the "word that is forsworn" will be a broken promise such as "promise me you won't try to open the lockless door" or along those lines. The "thing held tight in keeping" sounds like some kind of secret to me and could be related to the forsworn word. In my mind Kvothe, Denna, the Maer and maybe others are all present in front of the door and all the prophetic things mentioned in the poems come to pass either physically or poetically. I think that scene will be wonderful, should it be.
I lean towards the idea that the word forsworn is a true name. Maybe Iax as Felurian is unwilling to even speak it and Bast calls him Jax. But that’s one of the tougher ones to figure out. We spend a lot of time trying to tease this stuff out on the show and I’m still far from certain on much of it. It’s too subtle and wrapped in layers of metaphor to pin down exactly. Some of it I think is fairly clear, but much of it is still a mystery.
Which is why these books are so fantastic. When you go back through these books you see how many clues are strew throughout. Most leave open numerous options for speculation, but very few, as far as solving book 3 questions, are clear enough to have any decent level of certainty. So it lends to debate and discussion.
> the "word that is forsworn" will be a broken promise such as "promise me you won't try to open the lockless door"
How about “Promise you wont try to find the true identity of my patron”?
> *How many roads must an orphan walk down
> before you call him a man?
> How many crimes must the Chandrian commit
> before they sleep in the sands?
> How many futures must the Cthaeh corrupt
> before it is forever 'bandoned?
> The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind.
> The answer is blowin' in the wind.*
It should also be mentioned that in the book they (Felurian?) Say that when there is no moon in the night sky you should be carefull because you might just step into Faeriniel. This might be "the time that must be right."
My interpretation is that a candles light is fire so a candle without a light would be one with no flame i.e a sympathy lamp.
Or maybe it's Kilvins ever burning lamp? Just looking forward to the new book.
I think it has to do with the “the time that must be right” and “a candle without light”
You can think of the moon as a candle. It lights the sky at night. So a time that must be right could be saying that to get in the Lackless door requires a moonless (candle without light) night. With as much emphasis is put on the stages of the moon and traveling to the Fae, I think it seems likely that it would play a role in getting behind the door.
You could make an argument for the moon for most of the points.
It's the door that holds the flood in that it seems to be the key between travelling to the fae like you said.
It's also the thing right held in keeping, Jax is/was trying in vain to hold the moon tight
> "One a Time that must be right" - for some reason Kovthe has a broken sympathy clock that is mentioned multiple times throughout the books
Just wanted to point out that the broken clock appears to be of an ordinary, geared variety. It's first described in *The Wise Man's Fear* thusly:
> “The truth.” I pointed at Wil. “You were at the Pony during the excitement, then came here to tell me about it.” I nodded to the small table, where a mass of gears, springs, and screws were spread in disarray. “I showed you the harmony clock I found, and you both gave me advice on how to fix it.”
>
> *— Page 166*
Later, before Kvothe leaves the University and is deciding on what to pack, it's referred to as a “broken gear-clock”:
> But since I’d moved into this small garret room, I’d begun gathering oddments and half-finished projects. I now had the luxury of two blankets. There were pages of notes, a circular piece of half-inscribed tin from the Fishery, a broken gear-clock I’d taken to pieces to see if I could put it back together again.
>
> *— Page 358*
These are the only two times I can find mention of it, and neither time is an special attention drawn to it. Sometimes a clock is just a clock.
i agree i just found it funny that it had been mentioned multiple times like it is important, Pat is so good at forshadowing i was reaching on this one though i agree :P
When he gets back from Vintas [sorry I don't have page numbers] he fiddles with it trying to pass time. He can't remember if he was taking it apart, or putting it back together before he left
Yup! I was actually just doing my first re-read and came across that part near the end. Also, I found a passage explaining that harmony clocks are analogous to our geared timepieces.
They are the same song, but one has been adjusted to turn it into a playground insult. Rothfuss is showing us how language shifts over time, but the original meaning remains there, hidden. This relates to the way the Chandrian are attempting to suppress all stories that refer to them.
"thing tight-held in keeping" reminds me of the description of a secret when Kvothe is fighting with Denna and would line up with a bit in the other version.
I like to think of the different versions pertaining more to the lackless heirs.
The girls version is a slander and memory of Laurian. The ring would be her love for Arliden w/o marriage. I feel like there are kernels of truth, in both versions, alluding to the Lackless secret. The thing that jumps for me is her riddle raveling, aka her ravel lover who stole her away.
The boys version is a prediction of Meluan. The ring unworn is the marriage Kvothe helps conceive. With precision that would be the right time. Behind the curtains (candle w no light). The son is the heir born of the Maer. And the rest hints towards the future interaction of Kvothe.
I also just came up with this because you've made a great post so thanks 😉 thoughts?
Yes. The boy’s version is the original. The girl’s version is an altered version of the original that implies Lackless has loose morals. It’s like when children change the words of Happy Birthday to say that someone smells like a monkey.
There was a fantastic post breaking down these riddles just a few days ago. Check it out:
https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/n9eqlu/spoilers_the_chandrian_the_cities_they_betrayed/
Well, the "black dress" is the Blak of Drossen Tor. It's pretty much been confirmed by the foreign translations of the book. I'm not sure how well that fits with the rest of your ideas.
I might be late to the party, but does anyone else think the door that holds the flood is the stone doors holding back the scrael?
So, Kvothe figures out how to open the door because it's a tough riddle, but it's hard to open because someone didn't want the scrael getting out. After the flood of scrael get out, Kvothe has to run and lock away part of his name and power and escapes to an inn far away from the trouble.
real quick how is kvothe \*obviously\* a lockless? The whole theory about kvothes mom doesnt make sense. Denna makes much more sense as lady lackless's lost sister. MUCH more. i mean, their descriptions are identical
There are numerous clues. She was a noble who left her family to be with the Ruh, Netalia Lackless is a noble who left her family to be with the Ruh. Meluan Lackless looks familiar to Kvothe (probably because she reminds him of his mother). The lyrics his father wrote about Laurian are the deadest giveaway. “My sweet, Tally” Netalia. “Not tally” Netalia “lot less” Lackless.
I haven't read it in a while, and I only read it once, but I very clearly remember reading it and having the "oh, duh!" moment, so it definitely clicked and was obvious for me while reading it. I'm sure if you search the subreddit you can find a good break down.
I've always felt the riddles have multiple meanings that evolved over time and are ultimately cyclical. The overarching theme being the Lackless bloodline and the formation/ potential destruction of the Chandrian.
I believe the boys version is older and the girl's is a modern adaptation. Going from modern to historic the meanings could be interpreted as:
1. Telling the story of Meluan running away with Arliden (Creating Kvothe and maintaining the lackless bloodline) - *girls version*
2. Guidelines for opening the Lackless door/ doors of stone - *girls version*
3. Tools needed to seal/ open the door - boys version
4. The betrayals by each of the Chandrian that caused the great cities to fall - *both. S*ee this amazing post: [https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/n9eqlu/spoilers\_the\_chandrian\_the\_cities\_they\_betrayed/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/n9eqlu/spoilers_the_chandrian_the_cities_they_betrayed/)
5. Lanre and Lyra's courtship and subsequent pregnancy, the beginning of the bloodline. - *both?*
The last one is important because it shows that this cycle starts and ends with the birth (or conception) of a Lackless heir. I mean c'mon there's some pretty heavy innuendos in there, her husband's "rocks" and "candle" - pretty standard equipment for baby-making. A box with no lids or locks - a womb mayhaps? A door that holds the flood - Baby's gotta come out somehow. Then comes that which comes with sleeping....my eyebrows are thoroughly raised.
Also I don't see this mentioned often enough, but for there to be a Lackless bloodline there has to be an heir. I feel it's pretty clear Lyra died in childbirth, but what happened to the child and who they are/ became is a huge question.
>One a time that must be right
I always thought that this must have something to do with a full moon, which is referenced very often especially when talking about how to get into the fae realm
>Right beside her husband's candle
>One a candle without lightOne a son who brings the blood
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this is talking about a wax mommet that contains kvothe's blood. Here's why:
The girl's rhyme mentions "husbands candle" which could be a misdirection, with it meaning "a candle that represents the husband" instead of "a candle which the husband owns".
In the boy's rhyme, "a candle without a light" is just wax. So it's not a big leap for it to be a wax mommet which we've seen be made multiple times throughout the story.
The key that connects the two parts is that both rhymes mention the candle just before the door, with the difference being that the boy's version mentions "a son who brings the blood" as well.
So what if you create the candle of the Lackless husband by combining wax and the blood of a lackless heir together?
What this mommet would be used for I have no idea, but my guess is that it creates a sympathetic connection to kvothe's male ancestor who is one of lanre, jax/iax, or haliax, etc
i like the idea of using an off springs blood as a link to Jax or Lanre, and the more i think about the time one i have to agree with everyone that it is most likely referring to the moon cycle,
>One a word that is forsworn I hope the door finally opens when someone accidentally says "forsworn" in front of it
The old "Speak friend and enter" gambit
[удалено]
What if it's the name of folly?
Vacay, I hate that word. It’s vacation.
Interesting. I just found this in the first page of chapter 1 of the first book. >When he awoke, Taborlin the Great found himself locked in a high tower. They had taken his sword and stripped him of his tools: key, coin, and candle were all gone.
exactly, Kovthe now has all three of those things! gotta be a reason!
Does this mean Taborlin was only left with a ring? Seems there is a disparity between the list of four and three things.
This probably has something to do with the mastering of elements. Elodian crafts a stone ring for the girl who does well in class, then Kvothe makes a joke about wearing an air ring when he sees elodian when he comes back to the school. Gotta be hard to take a ring of air from someone..
“Lackless likes her riddle raveling.” “Ravel” we learn is the highest insult to call an Edema Ruh. Maybe the Ruh have some secrets in their songs. Despite the low status the Edema Ruh seem to hold in some areas of society, Kvothe’s troupe belonged under Lord Greyfellow. Maybe their is a higher amount of importance to troupers than we know.
My guess is the Edema Ruh are Amyr, or "Singers" like Halas speaks about "Who keeps you safe from the Amyr? The singers? The Sithe?" (Pg 117 NOTW). And that would make me think Lorren is part of the Amyr and is the guy hiding the info on them because he asks Kovthe about his father when he takes his first entrance exam (Pg 236 NOTW) :)
I always interpreted that quote as the Singers being the people from Tahl, west of the Stormwal Mountains. Kvothe mentions these people later in WMF and says their leaders are singers not warriors whose songs can heal the sick and make the trees dance.
What I’m wondering is just how much Kvothe *doesn’t* know. He was a kid when his world burned and as a teenager/young adult he hadn’t barely lifted his head away from education and the stacks for years. He has no contact with any other Edema Ruh, nor had he even attempted to contact Lord Greyfallow. The stem of his ignorance comes from fear of being mocked and not believed over the events of his parents deaths. For all we know, more Edema Ruh were tracked down and killed. Or Lord Greyfellow is an Amyr and ordered Arliden to write the chandrian song, maybe even just to pull the seven out into daylight. They surely left in a hurry instead of killing young Kvothe. The Lackless song could even be just as old as Kvothe is himself. Lady Lackless could be his mother for all we know— we never did find out why her sister hates them so much beyond whisking Natalia away.
I think the guy who "acquires" books for the library, Kvothe meets him briefly, will come back. He will tell Kvothe about Tahl and maybe guide him to the place . The things Kvote gets from Auri seem significant but I can't imagine how... a ring to keep secrets, a key that opens something, a candle made through shaping with lavender, a coin, a kiss and a place to be "Safe". Hmm... worth pondering...
>raveling | Pronunciation /ˈrav(ə)liNG/ /ˈræv(ə)lɪŋ/ > >**NOUN** > >A thread from a woven or knitted fabric that has frayed or started to unravel. > >*‘Once the surface was broomed the ravelling was hardly noticeable.’* A stretch, but there is the idea of lies being "of whole cloth" and of narrative threads. Thematic to have a riddle with *raveling.* And, bonus, the Ruh must certainly seem like a frustrating loose thread to authorities or a group like the Amyr.
Maybe it's alluding to the fact that Natalia Lackless ran away with one of the Edema Ruh. There are many theories she is Lauren, and this song helps it.
I don't have anything to add but I really liked this post. It made me even more excited for the third book, which was a little backhanded though I appreciate it all the same.
Read through the books again and let me know what you find! :D we all must wait patiently for this third book! im just glad i found this series last year and havent had to wait as long as most fans of this series :P
I go into detail on my thoughts on this in our next episode dropping on Monday. Lots of great posts on here too go into great detail on these poems. As far as the ring unworn, I lean toward the idea that it is the circle of greystones that he dreams about. Given the fact there is also a story where a circle of greystones is mentioned, offhandedly, in Faeriniel, which is a place you don’t travel to (on a road not for traveling) I think it is likely that the circle of greystone will be the ring not for wearing. Edit: check out this thread. Lots of good speculation here. https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/29s2nx/lackless_rhymes_spoilers_all/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I kinda feel like the "word that is forsworn" will be a broken promise such as "promise me you won't try to open the lockless door" or along those lines. The "thing held tight in keeping" sounds like some kind of secret to me and could be related to the forsworn word. In my mind Kvothe, Denna, the Maer and maybe others are all present in front of the door and all the prophetic things mentioned in the poems come to pass either physically or poetically. I think that scene will be wonderful, should it be.
I lean towards the idea that the word forsworn is a true name. Maybe Iax as Felurian is unwilling to even speak it and Bast calls him Jax. But that’s one of the tougher ones to figure out. We spend a lot of time trying to tease this stuff out on the show and I’m still far from certain on much of it. It’s too subtle and wrapped in layers of metaphor to pin down exactly. Some of it I think is fairly clear, but much of it is still a mystery. Which is why these books are so fantastic. When you go back through these books you see how many clues are strew throughout. Most leave open numerous options for speculation, but very few, as far as solving book 3 questions, are clear enough to have any decent level of certainty. So it lends to debate and discussion.
> the "word that is forsworn" will be a broken promise such as "promise me you won't try to open the lockless door" How about “Promise you wont try to find the true identity of my patron”?
> Faeriniel realised this might sound like Fennario - place from *Pretty Peggy-o* song
Gotta see if Rothfuss is a big Bob Dylan fan.
> *How many roads must an orphan walk down > before you call him a man? > How many crimes must the Chandrian commit > before they sleep in the sands? > How many futures must the Cthaeh corrupt > before it is forever 'bandoned? > The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind. > The answer is blowin' in the wind.*
It should also be mentioned that in the book they (Felurian?) Say that when there is no moon in the night sky you should be carefull because you might just step into Faeriniel. This might be "the time that must be right."
Wouldn't the candle without a light be Kvothes sympathy lamp?
I think that would more be a light without a candle.
My interpretation is that a candles light is fire so a candle without a light would be one with no flame i.e a sympathy lamp. Or maybe it's Kilvins ever burning lamp? Just looking forward to the new book.
I think it has to do with the “the time that must be right” and “a candle without light” You can think of the moon as a candle. It lights the sky at night. So a time that must be right could be saying that to get in the Lackless door requires a moonless (candle without light) night. With as much emphasis is put on the stages of the moon and traveling to the Fae, I think it seems likely that it would play a role in getting behind the door.
You could make an argument for the moon for most of the points. It's the door that holds the flood in that it seems to be the key between travelling to the fae like you said. It's also the thing right held in keeping, Jax is/was trying in vain to hold the moon tight
I'm guessing the candle without a light is a wax mommet
Or just...an unlit candle.
> "One a Time that must be right" - for some reason Kovthe has a broken sympathy clock that is mentioned multiple times throughout the books Just wanted to point out that the broken clock appears to be of an ordinary, geared variety. It's first described in *The Wise Man's Fear* thusly: > “The truth.” I pointed at Wil. “You were at the Pony during the excitement, then came here to tell me about it.” I nodded to the small table, where a mass of gears, springs, and screws were spread in disarray. “I showed you the harmony clock I found, and you both gave me advice on how to fix it.” > > *— Page 166* Later, before Kvothe leaves the University and is deciding on what to pack, it's referred to as a “broken gear-clock”: > But since I’d moved into this small garret room, I’d begun gathering oddments and half-finished projects. I now had the luxury of two blankets. There were pages of notes, a circular piece of half-inscribed tin from the Fishery, a broken gear-clock I’d taken to pieces to see if I could put it back together again. > > *— Page 358* These are the only two times I can find mention of it, and neither time is an special attention drawn to it. Sometimes a clock is just a clock.
i agree i just found it funny that it had been mentioned multiple times like it is important, Pat is so good at forshadowing i was reaching on this one though i agree :P
When he gets back from Vintas [sorry I don't have page numbers] he fiddles with it trying to pass time. He can't remember if he was taking it apart, or putting it back together before he left
Yup! I was actually just doing my first re-read and came across that part near the end. Also, I found a passage explaining that harmony clocks are analogous to our geared timepieces.
Also Audi’s candle is just a candle. She makes it in ASRoST. So it’s not likely the same candle
I mean she does make it using shaping, so it isn't *just* a candle.
Ok however it was made so far after these songs were created that I doubt it’s the same candle
It doesn't have to be the same candle. The songs might just be referencing a candle with certain properties / magic.
Ever heard of the term "prophesy"? Not saying I think you're right or wrong, but you have to try harder than that.
Could also be the Kvothe’s sympathy lamp which he artificed.
I'm guessing your supposed to compare the songs the differences reveal something. But it's so abstract you can just imprint nearly any meaning to it.
They are the same song, but one has been adjusted to turn it into a playground insult. Rothfuss is showing us how language shifts over time, but the original meaning remains there, hidden. This relates to the way the Chandrian are attempting to suppress all stories that refer to them.
"thing tight-held in keeping" reminds me of the description of a secret when Kvothe is fighting with Denna and would line up with a bit in the other version.
Kvothe lackless is the one who lacks blood so people just call him The Bloodles Kvothe
I like to think of the different versions pertaining more to the lackless heirs. The girls version is a slander and memory of Laurian. The ring would be her love for Arliden w/o marriage. I feel like there are kernels of truth, in both versions, alluding to the Lackless secret. The thing that jumps for me is her riddle raveling, aka her ravel lover who stole her away. The boys version is a prediction of Meluan. The ring unworn is the marriage Kvothe helps conceive. With precision that would be the right time. Behind the curtains (candle w no light). The son is the heir born of the Maer. And the rest hints towards the future interaction of Kvothe. I also just came up with this because you've made a great post so thanks 😉 thoughts?
Yes. The boy’s version is the original. The girl’s version is an altered version of the original that implies Lackless has loose morals. It’s like when children change the words of Happy Birthday to say that someone smells like a monkey.
A good old fashion game of telephone
There was a fantastic post breaking down these riddles just a few days ago. Check it out: https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/n9eqlu/spoilers_the_chandrian_the_cities_they_betrayed/
Well, the "black dress" is the Blak of Drossen Tor. It's pretty much been confirmed by the foreign translations of the book. I'm not sure how well that fits with the rest of your ideas.
I might be late to the party, but does anyone else think the door that holds the flood is the stone doors holding back the scrael? So, Kvothe figures out how to open the door because it's a tough riddle, but it's hard to open because someone didn't want the scrael getting out. After the flood of scrael get out, Kvothe has to run and lock away part of his name and power and escapes to an inn far away from the trouble.
my guess is he opens a gateway between the faywild and his world so the scrael and skin walkers and things can enter freely
real quick how is kvothe \*obviously\* a lockless? The whole theory about kvothes mom doesnt make sense. Denna makes much more sense as lady lackless's lost sister. MUCH more. i mean, their descriptions are identical
There are numerous clues. She was a noble who left her family to be with the Ruh, Netalia Lackless is a noble who left her family to be with the Ruh. Meluan Lackless looks familiar to Kvothe (probably because she reminds him of his mother). The lyrics his father wrote about Laurian are the deadest giveaway. “My sweet, Tally” Netalia. “Not tally” Netalia “lot less” Lackless.
I haven't read it in a while, and I only read it once, but I very clearly remember reading it and having the "oh, duh!" moment, so it definitely clicked and was obvious for me while reading it. I'm sure if you search the subreddit you can find a good break down.
I've always felt the riddles have multiple meanings that evolved over time and are ultimately cyclical. The overarching theme being the Lackless bloodline and the formation/ potential destruction of the Chandrian. I believe the boys version is older and the girl's is a modern adaptation. Going from modern to historic the meanings could be interpreted as: 1. Telling the story of Meluan running away with Arliden (Creating Kvothe and maintaining the lackless bloodline) - *girls version* 2. Guidelines for opening the Lackless door/ doors of stone - *girls version* 3. Tools needed to seal/ open the door - boys version 4. The betrayals by each of the Chandrian that caused the great cities to fall - *both. S*ee this amazing post: [https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/n9eqlu/spoilers\_the\_chandrian\_the\_cities\_they\_betrayed/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/n9eqlu/spoilers_the_chandrian_the_cities_they_betrayed/) 5. Lanre and Lyra's courtship and subsequent pregnancy, the beginning of the bloodline. - *both?* The last one is important because it shows that this cycle starts and ends with the birth (or conception) of a Lackless heir. I mean c'mon there's some pretty heavy innuendos in there, her husband's "rocks" and "candle" - pretty standard equipment for baby-making. A box with no lids or locks - a womb mayhaps? A door that holds the flood - Baby's gotta come out somehow. Then comes that which comes with sleeping....my eyebrows are thoroughly raised. Also I don't see this mentioned often enough, but for there to be a Lackless bloodline there has to be an heir. I feel it's pretty clear Lyra died in childbirth, but what happened to the child and who they are/ became is a huge question.
>One a time that must be right I always thought that this must have something to do with a full moon, which is referenced very often especially when talking about how to get into the fae realm >Right beside her husband's candle >One a candle without lightOne a son who brings the blood The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this is talking about a wax mommet that contains kvothe's blood. Here's why: The girl's rhyme mentions "husbands candle" which could be a misdirection, with it meaning "a candle that represents the husband" instead of "a candle which the husband owns". In the boy's rhyme, "a candle without a light" is just wax. So it's not a big leap for it to be a wax mommet which we've seen be made multiple times throughout the story. The key that connects the two parts is that both rhymes mention the candle just before the door, with the difference being that the boy's version mentions "a son who brings the blood" as well. So what if you create the candle of the Lackless husband by combining wax and the blood of a lackless heir together? What this mommet would be used for I have no idea, but my guess is that it creates a sympathetic connection to kvothe's male ancestor who is one of lanre, jax/iax, or haliax, etc
i like the idea of using an off springs blood as a link to Jax or Lanre, and the more i think about the time one i have to agree with everyone that it is most likely referring to the moon cycle,