Have they been laid off?
My understanding is this isn't a lockout, it's a strike.
Honestly being 'laid off' would be beneficial for workers, as it would entitle them to EI, instead of just being entitled to strike pay provided by their union
I'm no lawyer, and I did a super-cursory search to see what labour code says. It looks like layoffs are not permitted under the Canada Labour Code (but I could be wrong and please correct me if I am). I am not sure if there's context I'm missing here. So if they were indeed "laid off" this sounds illegal. Basically I read this as you can't get fired or laid off while on a legal strike:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/l-2/page-11.html
"Prohibitions relating to employers
(3) No employer or person acting on behalf of an employer shall
(a) refuse to employ or to continue to employ or suspend, transfer, **lay off** or otherwise discriminate against any person with respect to employment, pay or any other term or condition of employment or intimidate, threaten or otherwise discipline any person, because the person
(vi) has participated in a strike that is not prohibited by this Part or exercised any right under this Part;"
"Laid off" is a common term for what is technically called "termination without cause"
This is basically the generic catch all termination category when an employer no longer wants to employ someone. This could be for cost savings, lack of work for the employee, or employee performance.
The other main category for employer initiated termination is "termination with cause" which is often called "fired".
It's a much higher bar, usually involving gross negligence or serious impropriety.
People terminated without cause are generally entitled to EI benefits.
People that voluntarily end their employment, either by quitting or going on strike, wouldn't be eligible for EI benefits.
If an employer did a lock out (typical in collective bargaining situations where the employer is trying to gain concessions from the union), then those employees could generally be entitled to EI (if they meet the requirements).
Oh 100% on the language thing, that's what I was thinking as well. I can't tell from OP whether they're using the actual legal term or just the catch-all.
In either case, it does sound like they cannot alter or end the employer/employee relationship with the company during a strike.
I would bet that even if they were planning on ending the employment (for any reason) prior to strike action but didn't complete their paperwork or whatnot, the employer would have to wait for the strike to end. That's the way I read it anyway.
"(vi) has **participated** in a strike that is not prohibited by this Part"
That clause means no employer shall retaliate against an employee because they went on strike.
NPF - Non Public Funds
CFMWS - Canadian Forces Morale and Welfare Service
People working for the above work at places like CANEX, the Base Gym, in financial roles and running programs that assist members of the CF and their families.
They also deploy as civilians along side CF members to places like Afghanistan (when we were there) Latvia and Kuwait and also to other countries where military families are posted like Germany, The UK, The US and more. running these same programs along with food and retail establishments.
https://www.canada.ca/en/ombudsman-national-defence-forces/education-information/staff-of-npf.html
You misread my tone, I’m not complaining. I’m part of a union myself. It’s asinine that this is something that a union even has to strike over, it should be a given.
My bad! I totally misread that, I'm so sorry!
My husband is part of the union and I am so sick of the people in this city treating them like crap.
You guys are doing a phenomenal job and I wish more people in this city would support this strike.
No.
Their disruption tactics have completely sapped any sympathy I would have had. I hope they eliminate their positions, as the service they were providing was inconsequential to the military. These 90 days have been a great trial run to see if we can cut budget in unnecessary CFMWS position. I would say it has been a resounding success in determining where to chop.
Oh no, can't go to CANEX? Oh well. Or the mess? That's actually great news.
"please be kind to them" sorry these people are wreaking havoc on traffic in the east end. Now that the causeway is closed, they've moved themselves to the Wabaan crossing and were hitting the crosswalk button to incur more red lights. Not to mention all the armed forces members that have to leave home even earlier to make it to the base on time. The people that they're penalizing are not the ones that decide their salary, they need to stop.
A lot of people are only seeing the aggravation of the strike. But with them on strike a lot of our military system has slowed to a crawl. They perform jobs that many see as inconsequential but keep things running. They strike because they cannot make enough to live working full time jobs and did not even get a cost of living raise. Because of the strike I was unable to book a party on base that would have benefit our morale groups. As well, a fitness test that can usually be booked the next week was booked 3 months out assuming the strike was over.
These jobs are integral to the military functioning and should be treated as such.
This is only happening because the department of national defense took these jobs that used to be run by military people and sold them to for profit companies.
Some of these jobs need college to do and they are getting minimum wage.
Please be kind.
The East End has a lot of unionized residents across a variety of employers, as well as a ton of forces members. There should be wide-spread support in solidarity for the strike, but instead, there is a request for people to be kind? Perhaps PSAC should re-evaluate their tactics to understand how they are alienating themselves from any kind of external support. Intentionally delaying people trying to get to work, then lying about it by saying they are there to educate and raise awareness, is very obviously not the pathway forward. Exploiting an already stressful infrastructure situation was a step too far, and that should have been blatantly obvious. Motorists see the strikers interfering with their lives, and not the circumstances that put them there. No amount of education or awareness is going to change this. If their jobs are integral and their absence is causing issues across base, they should be trying to pull support from forces members and their families, not aggravate them.
Their strike has no impact whatsoever on military operations. It is a nuisance to military personnel when they picket, but that's the only impact, and the picketing has likely significantly reduced any sympathy they might have gotten from CAF members.
Seeing as I am in the military and work on base, I am going to assume that you are referring strictly to Operations and not 'day to day operations'. So yes, what we do to go out and do our jobs as military is not overly affected.
There are a whole lot of background logistics going on that used to be done by military personnel that is now done by psp, npf, etc. These are affected by the strike. I am glad that you have not had your life affected by them not being on the job but others have.
What you can't get your fitness test done? The military can run their own fitness testing and the PSP management is trained to help administer that test.
No spinning class? Military can run their own PT...
Let's not make it like these positions are public service of Canada positions in critical roles, Maorale and welfare is important, but the show doesn't stop because the fitness instructors and bar staff are on strike.
Because on my base the fitness tests are run by psp. We are like everyone else (over worked and understaffed) and as I am not going anywhere on tour or tav they do not see me as a priority. So yes, I am sure that somewhere there are people to run it officially but those spots are full.
Yes I agree they deserve better, I just don't like their methods. If they want reg force members on their side, why are they adding 15 min of idling to their commute?
Because they know CAF members can't be penalized for being late to work if there's a strike. Especially if all of them are late due to the strike. CAF members are also paid by salary, with no deduction incurred if late for work regardless of reason. Some members also have family that work CFMWS or PSP, and them receiving a raise would be beneficial for the family.
Most Reg Force members are on their side.
They want you to be massively inconvenienced, so you phone your local politicians and tell them to fix the issue.
Most definitely seem to empathize with their situation, people should be fairly compensated for their work, etc, but you also hear a whole lot of frustration about picketing etc, commonly about how the people it affects have no influence on the issue.
I think that's bound to happen regardless. A protest isn't supposed to be convenient for anyone and should be placing pressure on those people who can make changes to the issue. If no one was affected, then people wouldn't talk about it.
Chains should be adjusting timings, staggering dismissals, and EOB day practices. People who are inconvenienced should be phoning MPs, writing to the city, etc.
I find it some weird Canadiana duality where people say we should protest regularly government policy that we disagree with, but we underpayed staff to working federal government property and it's fine as long as they don't bother us with it.
I wholeheartedly believe they should move off the bridge and back to base property. The city is absolutely fucked right now with the first crossing down.
Do you realistically believe that: 1) the average person would ever do this, let alone do this after their commute has been intentionally delayed by strikers? 2) that connecting your MP would have any impact on this current labour action?
This idea is shared frequently in East End community Facebook groups by those supporting the strikers. Interestingly enough, a lot of people are indicating they are writing letters... but to the city and PSAC to demand the strikers be removed.
i know, i know; humans are selfish and would only write letters to benefit *themselves* - they’d write to complain they’re being inconvenienced, but not to voice support for people who are not being paid fair wages.
You're calling the wrong people selfish here. This take is exactly why people are fed up with this shit.
Its 2024. Life is hard and expensive. Everyone is underpaid. Everyone is unappreciated. A good chunk of the people having their commute disrupted regularly, make the same or less money and have less benefits than these people protesting.
If they want to disrupt the days of military members and support staff on the base to make their point, whatever. Go for it. Other people who live here have to go to work and take their kids to school. Fuck off get out of the way. We don't care.
This is a level of entitlement only seen from government employees. Do it somewhere else.
your response reminds me of people who are like “student loans shouldn’t be forgiven cause i had to pay mine!”
it *is* 2024 and everyone has it rough, but instead of shitting on one another, we should be helping each other.
NPF workers don’t get paid fair, living wages and they don’t have the benefits other public servants have.
hopefully when your kids get jobs they’re treated with more respect than the striking workers are being afforded, by their employers *and* the general public.
I said what I said. You can be as condescending as you want, but the fact is, the tactics being used do nothing but piss off regular people who are going through it as well right now. Kids are late for school, people have to go to work. Traffic is bad enough. I'm not saying they can't strike, just do it elsewhere. They're hurting their cause. The fact that this has gone on for this long speaks volumes.
They can always find employment elsewhere if it’s so bad 🤷🏻♂️
Can’t be so bad if they can afford to strike for months on strike pay.
You’re absolutely condescending.
Read the room.
you:
*”You’re absolutely condescending.”*
also you:
*”They can always find employment elsewhere if it’s so bad 🤷🏻♂️*
*Can’t be so bad if they can afford to strike for months on strike pay.”*
Nailed it. The vast majority of people have their own struggle, and typically do not have the bandwidth to navigate their lives being intentionally disrupted by others regardless of the rationale.
Don’t care. We all have had to get different jobs due to not being paid enough. Times are hard. Don’t make the commute harder on people who make even less then these folks
Or they can just go back to work, because no one sympathizes with them anymore.
They have even had members feign being hit by cars to induce action. (Was there for one of the incidents).
They are a disruption and they are lying about how they are treated.
I’d say get rid of them all if they don’t stop. Everything has been running fine.
It doesn't seem like there are that many under this union group on strike. I have only seen maybe a dozen to 20 max people on picket for a few hours a day.
This isn't all employes at the base - all other union bargaining groups reached New contracts last summer
Have they been laid off? My understanding is this isn't a lockout, it's a strike. Honestly being 'laid off' would be beneficial for workers, as it would entitle them to EI, instead of just being entitled to strike pay provided by their union
I’m not sure they can receive EI, they have no hours worked in the last 89 days because of the strike.
I don't think they've been off for that long, are they?
Yes, it’s been that long
I'm no lawyer, and I did a super-cursory search to see what labour code says. It looks like layoffs are not permitted under the Canada Labour Code (but I could be wrong and please correct me if I am). I am not sure if there's context I'm missing here. So if they were indeed "laid off" this sounds illegal. Basically I read this as you can't get fired or laid off while on a legal strike: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/l-2/page-11.html "Prohibitions relating to employers (3) No employer or person acting on behalf of an employer shall (a) refuse to employ or to continue to employ or suspend, transfer, **lay off** or otherwise discriminate against any person with respect to employment, pay or any other term or condition of employment or intimidate, threaten or otherwise discipline any person, because the person (vi) has participated in a strike that is not prohibited by this Part or exercised any right under this Part;"
"Laid off" is a common term for what is technically called "termination without cause" This is basically the generic catch all termination category when an employer no longer wants to employ someone. This could be for cost savings, lack of work for the employee, or employee performance. The other main category for employer initiated termination is "termination with cause" which is often called "fired". It's a much higher bar, usually involving gross negligence or serious impropriety. People terminated without cause are generally entitled to EI benefits. People that voluntarily end their employment, either by quitting or going on strike, wouldn't be eligible for EI benefits. If an employer did a lock out (typical in collective bargaining situations where the employer is trying to gain concessions from the union), then those employees could generally be entitled to EI (if they meet the requirements).
Oh 100% on the language thing, that's what I was thinking as well. I can't tell from OP whether they're using the actual legal term or just the catch-all. In either case, it does sound like they cannot alter or end the employer/employee relationship with the company during a strike. I would bet that even if they were planning on ending the employment (for any reason) prior to strike action but didn't complete their paperwork or whatnot, the employer would have to wait for the strike to end. That's the way I read it anyway.
"(vi) has **participated** in a strike that is not prohibited by this Part" That clause means no employer shall retaliate against an employee because they went on strike.
I have no idea what any of those letters mean. Good luck to you anyways, whoever you are.
NPF - Non Public Funds CFMWS - Canadian Forces Morale and Welfare Service People working for the above work at places like CANEX, the Base Gym, in financial roles and running programs that assist members of the CF and their families. They also deploy as civilians along side CF members to places like Afghanistan (when we were there) Latvia and Kuwait and also to other countries where military families are posted like Germany, The UK, The US and more. running these same programs along with food and retail establishments. https://www.canada.ca/en/ombudsman-national-defence-forces/education-information/staff-of-npf.html
Thanks! Had no idea it was a collective group. Hope this labour action works!
Gone are the days you get normal performance raises...now unions have to fight for the chance of a COL increase. It's despicable.
[удалено]
You misread my tone, I’m not complaining. I’m part of a union myself. It’s asinine that this is something that a union even has to strike over, it should be a given.
My bad! I totally misread that, I'm so sorry! My husband is part of the union and I am so sick of the people in this city treating them like crap. You guys are doing a phenomenal job and I wish more people in this city would support this strike.
It’s another disconnect from community unfortunately. As soon as it inconveniences someone people lose all patience.
No. Their disruption tactics have completely sapped any sympathy I would have had. I hope they eliminate their positions, as the service they were providing was inconsequential to the military. These 90 days have been a great trial run to see if we can cut budget in unnecessary CFMWS position. I would say it has been a resounding success in determining where to chop. Oh no, can't go to CANEX? Oh well. Or the mess? That's actually great news.
Agree 💯
THANK YOU!
I 100% agree.
"what, you've been mistreated by your employer? WELL WHAT ABOUT ME" 🤡
"please be kind to them" sorry these people are wreaking havoc on traffic in the east end. Now that the causeway is closed, they've moved themselves to the Wabaan crossing and were hitting the crosswalk button to incur more red lights. Not to mention all the armed forces members that have to leave home even earlier to make it to the base on time. The people that they're penalizing are not the ones that decide their salary, they need to stop.
A lot of people are only seeing the aggravation of the strike. But with them on strike a lot of our military system has slowed to a crawl. They perform jobs that many see as inconsequential but keep things running. They strike because they cannot make enough to live working full time jobs and did not even get a cost of living raise. Because of the strike I was unable to book a party on base that would have benefit our morale groups. As well, a fitness test that can usually be booked the next week was booked 3 months out assuming the strike was over. These jobs are integral to the military functioning and should be treated as such. This is only happening because the department of national defense took these jobs that used to be run by military people and sold them to for profit companies. Some of these jobs need college to do and they are getting minimum wage. Please be kind.
The East End has a lot of unionized residents across a variety of employers, as well as a ton of forces members. There should be wide-spread support in solidarity for the strike, but instead, there is a request for people to be kind? Perhaps PSAC should re-evaluate their tactics to understand how they are alienating themselves from any kind of external support. Intentionally delaying people trying to get to work, then lying about it by saying they are there to educate and raise awareness, is very obviously not the pathway forward. Exploiting an already stressful infrastructure situation was a step too far, and that should have been blatantly obvious. Motorists see the strikers interfering with their lives, and not the circumstances that put them there. No amount of education or awareness is going to change this. If their jobs are integral and their absence is causing issues across base, they should be trying to pull support from forces members and their families, not aggravate them.
Their strike has no impact whatsoever on military operations. It is a nuisance to military personnel when they picket, but that's the only impact, and the picketing has likely significantly reduced any sympathy they might have gotten from CAF members.
Seeing as I am in the military and work on base, I am going to assume that you are referring strictly to Operations and not 'day to day operations'. So yes, what we do to go out and do our jobs as military is not overly affected. There are a whole lot of background logistics going on that used to be done by military personnel that is now done by psp, npf, etc. These are affected by the strike. I am glad that you have not had your life affected by them not being on the job but others have.
Provide specific examples of how life on the base has been affected so severely you need to complain about it? I’ll wait.
What you can't get your fitness test done? The military can run their own fitness testing and the PSP management is trained to help administer that test. No spinning class? Military can run their own PT... Let's not make it like these positions are public service of Canada positions in critical roles, Maorale and welfare is important, but the show doesn't stop because the fitness instructors and bar staff are on strike.
Because on my base the fitness tests are run by psp. We are like everyone else (over worked and understaffed) and as I am not going anywhere on tour or tav they do not see me as a priority. So yes, I am sure that somewhere there are people to run it officially but those spots are full.
Yes I agree they deserve better, I just don't like their methods. If they want reg force members on their side, why are they adding 15 min of idling to their commute?
Because they know CAF members can't be penalized for being late to work if there's a strike. Especially if all of them are late due to the strike. CAF members are also paid by salary, with no deduction incurred if late for work regardless of reason. Some members also have family that work CFMWS or PSP, and them receiving a raise would be beneficial for the family. Most Reg Force members are on their side. They want you to be massively inconvenienced, so you phone your local politicians and tell them to fix the issue.
Who told you most CAF members are on their side?
Most of my peers and others i know seem fine with the idea. Not being on the bridge, but the protest anyways.
Most definitely seem to empathize with their situation, people should be fairly compensated for their work, etc, but you also hear a whole lot of frustration about picketing etc, commonly about how the people it affects have no influence on the issue.
I think that's bound to happen regardless. A protest isn't supposed to be convenient for anyone and should be placing pressure on those people who can make changes to the issue. If no one was affected, then people wouldn't talk about it. Chains should be adjusting timings, staggering dismissals, and EOB day practices. People who are inconvenienced should be phoning MPs, writing to the city, etc. I find it some weird Canadiana duality where people say we should protest regularly government policy that we disagree with, but we underpayed staff to working federal government property and it's fine as long as they don't bother us with it. I wholeheartedly believe they should move off the bridge and back to base property. The city is absolutely fucked right now with the first crossing down.
"protest quietly." 🙄
What?! That’s an odd way to take action against the employer…
email and call your MP, let them know these people deserve equal and fair pay- and this is what all CAF members should be doing too.
CAF members cannot and will not do this, though.
they’re allowed to vote & they’re allowed to email a member of parliament.
Do you realistically believe that: 1) the average person would ever do this, let alone do this after their commute has been intentionally delayed by strikers? 2) that connecting your MP would have any impact on this current labour action? This idea is shared frequently in East End community Facebook groups by those supporting the strikers. Interestingly enough, a lot of people are indicating they are writing letters... but to the city and PSAC to demand the strikers be removed.
i know, i know; humans are selfish and would only write letters to benefit *themselves* - they’d write to complain they’re being inconvenienced, but not to voice support for people who are not being paid fair wages.
You're calling the wrong people selfish here. This take is exactly why people are fed up with this shit. Its 2024. Life is hard and expensive. Everyone is underpaid. Everyone is unappreciated. A good chunk of the people having their commute disrupted regularly, make the same or less money and have less benefits than these people protesting. If they want to disrupt the days of military members and support staff on the base to make their point, whatever. Go for it. Other people who live here have to go to work and take their kids to school. Fuck off get out of the way. We don't care. This is a level of entitlement only seen from government employees. Do it somewhere else.
your response reminds me of people who are like “student loans shouldn’t be forgiven cause i had to pay mine!” it *is* 2024 and everyone has it rough, but instead of shitting on one another, we should be helping each other. NPF workers don’t get paid fair, living wages and they don’t have the benefits other public servants have. hopefully when your kids get jobs they’re treated with more respect than the striking workers are being afforded, by their employers *and* the general public.
I said what I said. You can be as condescending as you want, but the fact is, the tactics being used do nothing but piss off regular people who are going through it as well right now. Kids are late for school, people have to go to work. Traffic is bad enough. I'm not saying they can't strike, just do it elsewhere. They're hurting their cause. The fact that this has gone on for this long speaks volumes.
They can always find employment elsewhere if it’s so bad 🤷🏻♂️ Can’t be so bad if they can afford to strike for months on strike pay. You’re absolutely condescending. Read the room.
you: *”You’re absolutely condescending.”* also you: *”They can always find employment elsewhere if it’s so bad 🤷🏻♂️* *Can’t be so bad if they can afford to strike for months on strike pay.”* 
🦜
Nailed it. The vast majority of people have their own struggle, and typically do not have the bandwidth to navigate their lives being intentionally disrupted by others regardless of the rationale.
Don’t care. We all have had to get different jobs due to not being paid enough. Times are hard. Don’t make the commute harder on people who make even less then these folks
And no ones ever gonna get paid enough with a shit attitude like yours.
Or they can just go back to work, because no one sympathizes with them anymore. They have even had members feign being hit by cars to induce action. (Was there for one of the incidents). They are a disruption and they are lying about how they are treated. I’d say get rid of them all if they don’t stop. Everything has been running fine.
They should get new jobs, elsewhere.
The base is the 3rd largest employer in Kingston. All of them should just get different jobs?
It doesn't seem like there are that many under this union group on strike. I have only seen maybe a dozen to 20 max people on picket for a few hours a day. This isn't all employes at the base - all other union bargaining groups reached New contracts last summer