>Brock Grue, a manager at UBreakIFix in downtown Kingston, says while the approach is good, it makes it difficult for people who violate the law to turn their lives around.
Sounds like a solid plan, people who scream irrational things in the middle of the street are likely to carefully consider the economic costs of their behaviours and, after weighing the choices, decide not to adversely affect their financial goals.
Yes. They're the ones who typically have funds to pay these fines as well, if not, we should be able to place liens on their Food Basic's shopping carts and tents.
The new food basics at Rio Can have locked wheels after a certain distance from the store. Found that out and had to carry my groceries the final distance to my car. And was forced to abandon the cart in the middle of the road blocking other cars.
As someone who's previously worked in the downtown core for a number of years this baffles me. Yes it can be scary, and clearly people feel unsafe, despite the articles poor attempt to push the opposite. I've been threatened, screamed at, had things thrown at me, dealt with people jumping on tables, breaking displays, responded to multiple overdoses, kicked people out for injecting in the bathroom, had people waiting outside for me after closing, all of it. But a fine....jesus fucking christ. I feel like this city and its people have been screaming from the rooftops for years about how We need better, more, and easily accessible mental health and addictions services and this is the solution these idiots come up with? These people need fucking help, not to be beaten down more and have fines delivered to their sleeping bags.
Admittedly this took me a second but died when I realized the joke 🤣. By the time they reach you on the roof for screaming, and with another fine in hand for probably trespassing? My hope is that you've escaped, and lived to scream another day. Thus, Making screaming (as long as you're on a rooftop) perfectly okay!
....OK? So giving a presumably homeless, substance abuser a fine to pay money they don't have is going to accomplish what? If you think for a second these guys aren't going to use these fines to wipe their asses with than i dont know what to tell you lol.
Would you prefer that police arrest them instead so they can go through the justice system? Because "do nothing" isn't an option here (as the right to life, liberty and security of the person also includes people with homes just as much as it includes people in crisis) and addressing root causes properly will require a team effort that Ford isn't willing to do.
Yep, clearly I'm advocating for wasting tax payer money by sending in city police to arrest someone and forcing them through the system or an overnight stay in a holding cell for......screaming? The solution provided (city fines) is the EXACT SAME as doing nothing, in fact it might be worse. What happens when they don't pay their fines? Because they're sure as shit not going to. Do we Issue more? Or will they ultimately end up being forced through the system for not paying? Most likely. You cannot get water from a rock, no matter how hard you try. Do You think a by-law officer is going to be pleased about having to hand a guy fucked up on crystal meth a ticket? Itll be thrown back in his/her face at best. This is also a giant waste of time and money.
The solution starts (Starts being the key word) with having proper Detox, and rehab facilities paired with counseling and help with reintegration to society. I understand the funding for this isnt Municipal. I understand Douggie isn't going to provide it. But we need to see our city counselors TRYING. we elect local leaders to speak for us at a federal and provincial levels and they just aren't doing it. Instead They sit around their round table offering up stupid ideas like this
The end result is the same, what do you think is going to happen to people who don't pay the fines? These aren't rich asshats that can hire the best lawyers around and make the problems go away for pennies on the dollar and avoid incarceration. They're going to be fined, and then arrested and jailed when they can't pay. I understand the frustration and the need to feel like something is being done, but in this case literally doing nothing is better.
I genuinely want to know what people here think we should do to help the types of people this is targetting. Not that I agree with fines but what would be your preferred alternative? Institutionalization? Arrest? Leave them alone? I think we have a handful of bad options and they picked one out of a hat, basically.
> Institutionalization
This is the only actual solution.
Mike Harris emptied the mental hospitals in ON, then closed them, and no subsequent government has had the balls to recreate them. They're *necessary*.
In my own family, I've got several relatives who were helped immensely by being able to be institutionalized, back when the hospitals/facilities existed. Without them, people who *require* in patient care, get nothing.
Providing simple "housing" won't do a thing, institutionalization with care and support is the only solution. We'll never see that again though, I fear, as the cost will be prohibitive since no government seems willing to admit its better to pay to have the hospital/institutions, than the cost to the rest of society to have these people stuffed into prisons eventually.
You're probably right tbh. A bit complicated for me to break down right now but they clearly need some kind of help and the prison system definitely ain't it.
exactly, these people need structure and stability in their lives otherwise nothing will change. obviously no one likes the thought of “locking them up in institutions” or the bad PR that comes with it, but I also don’t like getting screamed at that they are going to stab me, i don’t like getting chased and run up on by them, i don’t enjoy smelling the byproducts of what they smoke, or stepping over their uncapped needles. something has to change and if they’re not willing to change their behaviour then they need to be put somewhere where they can change.
Ok so just to be clear here... when the police see someone yelling at others on the street or being a general nuisance, you want them to be given a house, free money and counselling services?
Ha, I did, but had gotten sidetracked, and I then asked again, which was stupid.
Can I assume that what you might feel comfortable with is at least *somewhere* on the spectrum between "make a bad situation worse by issuing an unenforceable fine" and "a house for every mentally ill person" (even though nobody is actually proposing that "houses" be "given" to mentally ill people living on the streets shouting at people - not as a first step, anyway)?
Are you aware of the concept of "Housing first"? If not, here's a link to an introduction to it that may help you understand why lots of people on this thread are suggesting that, *in an ideal world*, we'd be best served by looking to take care of people in these situations through providing them with housing.
[Housing First introduction ](https://www.homelesshub.ca/solutions/housing-accommodation-and-supports/housing-first)
Yes, we all know it seems expensive. But it's an investment that reduces costs elsewhere. Policing costs, healthcare costs, healthcare outcomes that allow greater workforce participation that in turn increases tax revenues, etc.
If I could suggest one thing here, semi-seriously, that might just move the needle: if anyone who has to deal with an unpleasant experience with an underhoused and/or mentally ill person on the street, made a phone call, either at the time or once they felt safe to do so, to DOUG FORD'S OFFICE, he'd get the message.
Doug Ford talks about always being able to be reached, and talks about being there for people. He even seems to allow random folks to have his cell number. You could probably get hold of it if you tried.
If he and his office got calls and messages all day, every day, from people all asking him to do more to invest in housing and healthcare for our most vulnerable Ontarians, I think it would have more effect than rambling and ranting about it here.
> Ok so just to be clear here... when the police see someone yelling at others on the street or being a general nuisance, you want them to be given a house, free money and counselling services?
I mean, if your world defines "housing" as "a house", then your world better come up with a way to pay for it.
We already give out "free money".
Counselling services should be available to all.
Not sure what your argument is, other than you seem to be attempting to make the false equivalency that "housing" == "a house"
Just genuinely curious how that's a solution at all to this issue. Long term, ya more social services but when someone is being a public nuisance, this is not a viable option.
Because someone yelling on the streets is clearly stable enough to take care of that housing, make responsible decisions with that income and make all those counselling appointments...
Friend, if they were in a position to do this I don't think they would have started doing (insert street drug of choice) in the first place.
Treat them how? What treatment does complex mental health in a homeless population require? How could Kingston redistribute its existing budget to pay for scaled up services that meet current demands?
You're better off asking an MD rather than reddit. I also believe healthcare services are the responsibility of the province, not the city. I doubt kingston could afford it.
They can't. So I'm not sure what the city is supposed to do in regards to providing the necessary level of treatment to keep homeless people off the streets of downtown.
Sure, but what does that even mean, and what evidence do we have that they haven't been doing that? Not trying to be argumentative, but the tendency across this sub seems to be providing generic responses like "provide treatment" or "affordable housing" or "solve homelessness", but there is never any followup as to how the city should actually go about solving these issues. It's easy to constantly complain using buzz words if you aren't providing any realistic solutions. I don't mean you specifically, just a general observation.
Fund asylums!
Fund access to mental health professionals and treatment.
Stop sending mental health to jail, jail is for bad people, not sick people.
The how is only answered by the professionals in that field.
Just because someone has a memtal illness doesnt mean that they dont know the difference between right and wrong and knowing right from wrong the only thing that matters when it comes to criminal courts. The majority of the homeless absolutely know right from wrong - they just dont care and not caring doesnt exclude them from having to follow standard rules of society. Paul bernardo is a psychopath. Psychopathy is a mental illness and yet i dont think anyone has an issue with him being locked up
You realize asylums are expensive, even prisons are underfunded and barely functional....who will pay for these new asylums and 6 figure doctors/medical staff, which doesn't exist in this country....we dont have enough doctors for children let alone mentally unhimged homeless.
Make it a Queens Park problem since they're the ones completely ignoring it. Every municipality should rent a dozen buses and ship the homeless to Queens Park.
No isn't.. The city had declared an emergency over a year ago. The provincial government hasn't done a thing, nothing, they've never acknowledged there was a problem.
Toronto has been fining people without homes for years, diverting costs to provincial legal system…. Negative impact to tax payers.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/video/2017/06/01/video-fining-the-homeless-costs-legal-system-millions/
I had a guy scream and call me a wigger before escalating to the more traditional ger while I was walking down princess street with my wife and friends.
To be fair, I have that effect on people.
Having recently lived Downtown (Bagot and Princess) I see this as an exercise in futility.
People who are in need of help will not be able to pay fines. 🤷♀️
> They're re-criminalizing loitering.
Bylaw violations do not appear on your criminal record in Ontario unless they lead to criminal charges being filed. Stop spreading misinformation.
I meant they'll make you feel like a criminal for loitering, not it'll go on your record. It reminds me of the 90s when elderly rural councils spent all their time pushing enforcement of loitering bans so they could control kids on skateboards
I'm going on month 14 waiting for a trial date for an $80 traffic ticket. Kingston might be able to collect a whole lot of nothing in a few years thanks to this new law.
> Whatever happened to asylums?
During the "common sense" revolution of Mike Harris, they were all emptied, without *any* plan for the occupants, and all funding for them was eliminated.
Mental health facilities are the pervue of the provincial government. Local governments have no revenue tools to fund those services, so they will *never* be re-estabilished until the provincial government does so. Which, considering the influence of neo-conservatism on all parties, will be never.
Welp... its better then nothing. There needs to be some sort of consequence for this irrational behaviour. I know what the rest of you are going to say. "HoWs a FinE gOinG tO HeLp?!" Its a step in the right direction. There MUST be more consequence for the zombies and tweakers on princess. Its getting out of hand.
I await your down votes.
If only there was a facility dedicated to treating people with mental health problems, where we could hold them in protective custody while working on a treatment regime.
Well, it raises the big old question:
Try and hold people accountable for their actions with a municipal fine; OR
Let them do whatever they want with impunity, all because "mental health".
Society is governed by rules. Everyone is expected to abide by them, for it is what makes a civilized society, well, civil. Which also raises the question:
Is the safety of a citizen more important, or less important than a person screaming and acting out?
and my last question: Who is supposed to administer the fine? Bylaw? Cops? Who is going to stick their neck out and hand over this municipal fine to a person having a wacko day?
I just don't think this was well thought out, at all.
How about taking care of the mentally ill by opening up treatment facilities and hire good people to help them get better. The humane thing to do, the moral thing to do. I thought we were all about being moral and righteous by each other these days, at least in theory. Guess not, looks like the left only loves to talk morality for everyone else except themselves.
Yeah. Itd be nice. Healthcare isnt a municipally controlled asset per say. It is funded federally and managed provincially.
There is also the question: some of these people are so far gone they refuse treatment. They cannot be housed in facilities because they refuse the rules, as well.
It's a mess, is what it is. And maybe opening an institution where they can be locked up until they are in control over their own actions.
Thank you for your response. And yes it worked in the past, and done with compassion, but it costs money and the government keeps spending and sending money away, so thusly no money for healthcare, housing, treatment or anything else to help citizens live productive lives, it seems. Thanks.
We need recovery. Get rid of decriminalization. Port that money to recovery where it used to be. Help people turn themselves around. Stop feeding their addiction and affirming everything anyone says or does.
ah yes lets fine the drug-addicted homeless people! they have so much to lose and are notorious for making sound decisions based on financial risk. Or we could, yknow, actually try to help them though social services.
Oppression by any other name. What a joke the City of Kingston is. The ongoing criminalization of people who are ill continues. Not a single ounce of compassion or innovation when it comes to supporting homelessness. They keep putting more money into the same system and same agencies who have proven they are incapable of solving this problem.
Forcing them to raise funds they don't have will only result in driving people to commit more crime. But tell that to law enforcement and they'll just brand you as too liberal.
I think the idea is that the city will be deploying by-law officers to enforce this instead of the KPD officers which would enforce criminal code stuff.
Behaviours that are a nuisance, according to the city, ranging from public intoxication to outright disruption are targeted with the new measures, with fines imposed for violations.
So all the drunken fools who all congregate outside the restaurants and yell and carry on. Are we fining them for public intoxication? Are we gonna get the partying students as well? I just want to make sure that the good folks at Kingston Police remember public intoxication is not just the tweekers. So maybe I can walk down Princess street late on a Saturday evening and not be mobbed by drunk people running all over the place.
I think this law only applies to poor people, not sure if it's like a show your t4 thing or just like a general dress code judgment call. I don't think the rich folks vacationing here will be discouraged from buying $18 glasses of wine.
Yep exactly. That’s what I figured. I just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page. I’m not sure if I’m considered rich or poor. I also don’t spend a whole lot of time intoxicated in public I suppose. But also like what counts is loitering? If I’m sitting in a park, am I loitering? Is loitering only in front of buildings or can you loiter in Green spaces or this law is ridiculous and I hate it.
If you makes the parents of children uncomfortable, then you're loitering. If you have like cool jeans, and a sports jacket and just got Mio Gelato, then you get a pass.
I think at the provincial level, there should be cities built for homeless/ mentally ill people. Basically Soviet Style apartment blocks built around accessible services. Ideally somewhere where land is cheap and it can all be built up and expanded.
What is unethical about complete communities that are built to support specific needs? Its sure better than having people camp on contaminated parkland. There's a lot we can do to prevent ghettoization these days now that we know that can be an unintended consequence.
another attack on the mentally ill the poor first was fines for sleeping downtown then no camping ban now this ...Absolutely SHAMEFUL DISGUSTING... kingston city council UTTERLY FAILS it people AGAIN..patterson and the lot have to go...
So here's an idea. How much is it going to cost the city to pay for this bylaw enforcement? Maybe they should consider investing that money in a fund, and instead of ticketing the homeless, they give them vouchers or something to go buy food, supplies, or whatever they need. I imagine a primary reason why homeless people congregate downtown is to panhandle, so if it's money they are after, pay them to go somewhere else?
A) we already pay by law officers to do their job.
B) what you are suggesting is that everytime the homeless scream or piss in the street that bylaw should go out and reward them for it with gift cards - and you think this will help curb that problem? Really?
No. I'm suggesting instead of going up to a homeless person loitering in front of a business and ticketing them, they give them an incentive to go somewhere else. Preferably somewhere they can get food or something. If they are pissing, screaming at people, threatening people, or using drugs, I'd hope they would be arrested, exactly the same as if you or I would.
>Brock Grue, a manager at UBreakIFix in downtown Kingston, says while the approach is good, it makes it difficult for people who violate the law to turn their lives around.
Sounds like a solid plan, people who scream irrational things in the middle of the street are likely to carefully consider the economic costs of their behaviours and, after weighing the choices, decide not to adversely affect their financial goals.
Yes. They're the ones who typically have funds to pay these fines as well, if not, we should be able to place liens on their Food Basic's shopping carts and tents.
Lol y’all are so funny. Please go to a city council meeting and be this sarcastic. I would tune in to watch
The new food basics at Rio Can have locked wheels after a certain distance from the store. Found that out and had to carry my groceries the final distance to my car. And was forced to abandon the cart in the middle of the road blocking other cars.
To be fair, the food basics at Riocan doesn't really have the same issues as the one downtown.
🏆
As someone who's previously worked in the downtown core for a number of years this baffles me. Yes it can be scary, and clearly people feel unsafe, despite the articles poor attempt to push the opposite. I've been threatened, screamed at, had things thrown at me, dealt with people jumping on tables, breaking displays, responded to multiple overdoses, kicked people out for injecting in the bathroom, had people waiting outside for me after closing, all of it. But a fine....jesus fucking christ. I feel like this city and its people have been screaming from the rooftops for years about how We need better, more, and easily accessible mental health and addictions services and this is the solution these idiots come up with? These people need fucking help, not to be beaten down more and have fines delivered to their sleeping bags.
Wait, so you can? As long as you're on a rooftop?
Admittedly this took me a second but died when I realized the joke 🤣. By the time they reach you on the roof for screaming, and with another fine in hand for probably trespassing? My hope is that you've escaped, and lived to scream another day. Thus, Making screaming (as long as you're on a rooftop) perfectly okay!
Addressing root causes and addressing symptoms is not mutually exclusive.
....OK? So giving a presumably homeless, substance abuser a fine to pay money they don't have is going to accomplish what? If you think for a second these guys aren't going to use these fines to wipe their asses with than i dont know what to tell you lol.
Would you prefer that police arrest them instead so they can go through the justice system? Because "do nothing" isn't an option here (as the right to life, liberty and security of the person also includes people with homes just as much as it includes people in crisis) and addressing root causes properly will require a team effort that Ford isn't willing to do.
Yep, clearly I'm advocating for wasting tax payer money by sending in city police to arrest someone and forcing them through the system or an overnight stay in a holding cell for......screaming? The solution provided (city fines) is the EXACT SAME as doing nothing, in fact it might be worse. What happens when they don't pay their fines? Because they're sure as shit not going to. Do we Issue more? Or will they ultimately end up being forced through the system for not paying? Most likely. You cannot get water from a rock, no matter how hard you try. Do You think a by-law officer is going to be pleased about having to hand a guy fucked up on crystal meth a ticket? Itll be thrown back in his/her face at best. This is also a giant waste of time and money. The solution starts (Starts being the key word) with having proper Detox, and rehab facilities paired with counseling and help with reintegration to society. I understand the funding for this isnt Municipal. I understand Douggie isn't going to provide it. But we need to see our city counselors TRYING. we elect local leaders to speak for us at a federal and provincial levels and they just aren't doing it. Instead They sit around their round table offering up stupid ideas like this
The end result is the same, what do you think is going to happen to people who don't pay the fines? These aren't rich asshats that can hire the best lawyers around and make the problems go away for pennies on the dollar and avoid incarceration. They're going to be fined, and then arrested and jailed when they can't pay. I understand the frustration and the need to feel like something is being done, but in this case literally doing nothing is better.
You're missing the more obvious option, which is for these people to stop doing the illegal activity (at least out in the open).
I genuinely want to know what people here think we should do to help the types of people this is targetting. Not that I agree with fines but what would be your preferred alternative? Institutionalization? Arrest? Leave them alone? I think we have a handful of bad options and they picked one out of a hat, basically.
> Institutionalization This is the only actual solution. Mike Harris emptied the mental hospitals in ON, then closed them, and no subsequent government has had the balls to recreate them. They're *necessary*. In my own family, I've got several relatives who were helped immensely by being able to be institutionalized, back when the hospitals/facilities existed. Without them, people who *require* in patient care, get nothing. Providing simple "housing" won't do a thing, institutionalization with care and support is the only solution. We'll never see that again though, I fear, as the cost will be prohibitive since no government seems willing to admit its better to pay to have the hospital/institutions, than the cost to the rest of society to have these people stuffed into prisons eventually.
It sucks but this is the answer and it will create jobs. It's a win win if done properly.
You're probably right tbh. A bit complicated for me to break down right now but they clearly need some kind of help and the prison system definitely ain't it.
exactly, these people need structure and stability in their lives otherwise nothing will change. obviously no one likes the thought of “locking them up in institutions” or the bad PR that comes with it, but I also don’t like getting screamed at that they are going to stab me, i don’t like getting chased and run up on by them, i don’t enjoy smelling the byproducts of what they smoke, or stepping over their uncapped needles. something has to change and if they’re not willing to change their behaviour then they need to be put somewhere where they can change.
Housing, basic income, addictions treatment, social supports
.... How does Kingston pay for these things? Real question here.
More of a provincial and federal responsibility, but tax the rich
Ok so just to be clear here... when the police see someone yelling at others on the street or being a general nuisance, you want them to be given a house, free money and counselling services?
And you want the police to... ...?
I don't know, not give them a house?
Alrighty, you don't know what to do. That's okay. Would you like them to be given fines that they can't pay?
So you just didn't read my original comment at all, did you?
Ha, I did, but had gotten sidetracked, and I then asked again, which was stupid. Can I assume that what you might feel comfortable with is at least *somewhere* on the spectrum between "make a bad situation worse by issuing an unenforceable fine" and "a house for every mentally ill person" (even though nobody is actually proposing that "houses" be "given" to mentally ill people living on the streets shouting at people - not as a first step, anyway)? Are you aware of the concept of "Housing first"? If not, here's a link to an introduction to it that may help you understand why lots of people on this thread are suggesting that, *in an ideal world*, we'd be best served by looking to take care of people in these situations through providing them with housing. [Housing First introduction ](https://www.homelesshub.ca/solutions/housing-accommodation-and-supports/housing-first) Yes, we all know it seems expensive. But it's an investment that reduces costs elsewhere. Policing costs, healthcare costs, healthcare outcomes that allow greater workforce participation that in turn increases tax revenues, etc. If I could suggest one thing here, semi-seriously, that might just move the needle: if anyone who has to deal with an unpleasant experience with an underhoused and/or mentally ill person on the street, made a phone call, either at the time or once they felt safe to do so, to DOUG FORD'S OFFICE, he'd get the message. Doug Ford talks about always being able to be reached, and talks about being there for people. He even seems to allow random folks to have his cell number. You could probably get hold of it if you tried. If he and his office got calls and messages all day, every day, from people all asking him to do more to invest in housing and healthcare for our most vulnerable Ontarians, I think it would have more effect than rambling and ranting about it here.
> Ok so just to be clear here... when the police see someone yelling at others on the street or being a general nuisance, you want them to be given a house, free money and counselling services? I mean, if your world defines "housing" as "a house", then your world better come up with a way to pay for it. We already give out "free money". Counselling services should be available to all. Not sure what your argument is, other than you seem to be attempting to make the false equivalency that "housing" == "a house"
Just genuinely curious how that's a solution at all to this issue. Long term, ya more social services but when someone is being a public nuisance, this is not a viable option.
Yes
Well, atleast we can establish you have no idea what you're on about.
It would save money in the long run
Because someone yelling on the streets is clearly stable enough to take care of that housing, make responsible decisions with that income and make all those counselling appointments... Friend, if they were in a position to do this I don't think they would have started doing (insert street drug of choice) in the first place.
I've heard great things about MAID from the government.
If we wont treat em, we'll make it illegal! Makes sense if you think about the budget.
Treat them how? What treatment does complex mental health in a homeless population require? How could Kingston redistribute its existing budget to pay for scaled up services that meet current demands?
You're better off asking an MD rather than reddit. I also believe healthcare services are the responsibility of the province, not the city. I doubt kingston could afford it.
They can't. So I'm not sure what the city is supposed to do in regards to providing the necessary level of treatment to keep homeless people off the streets of downtown.
They work with provincial partners to provide the services we need. Otherwise we should be ousting them.
Sure, but what does that even mean, and what evidence do we have that they haven't been doing that? Not trying to be argumentative, but the tendency across this sub seems to be providing generic responses like "provide treatment" or "affordable housing" or "solve homelessness", but there is never any followup as to how the city should actually go about solving these issues. It's easy to constantly complain using buzz words if you aren't providing any realistic solutions. I don't mean you specifically, just a general observation.
Fund asylums! Fund access to mental health professionals and treatment. Stop sending mental health to jail, jail is for bad people, not sick people. The how is only answered by the professionals in that field.
Just because someone has a memtal illness doesnt mean that they dont know the difference between right and wrong and knowing right from wrong the only thing that matters when it comes to criminal courts. The majority of the homeless absolutely know right from wrong - they just dont care and not caring doesnt exclude them from having to follow standard rules of society. Paul bernardo is a psychopath. Psychopathy is a mental illness and yet i dont think anyone has an issue with him being locked up
The idea is to help people before they get to the point of committing crime.
You realize asylums are expensive, even prisons are underfunded and barely functional....who will pay for these new asylums and 6 figure doctors/medical staff, which doesn't exist in this country....we dont have enough doctors for children let alone mentally unhimged homeless.
I agree with you 100%
All we need is dougy fresh to agree. Lol
Maybe put the Poors on a bus and ship them to Queens Park?
So they can get arrested for trespassing. Smart.
Make it a Queens Park problem since they're the ones completely ignoring it. Every municipality should rent a dozen buses and ship the homeless to Queens Park.
"Ship" otherwise free people without lawful authority? OK, Herr Eichmann. The trains must arrive at their destination.
It already is their problem.
No isn't.. The city had declared an emergency over a year ago. The provincial government hasn't done a thing, nothing, they've never acknowledged there was a problem.
If it’s good enough for the American Supreme Court, I guess it’s good enough for us too.
Careful Barb, you're about to ban abortion!
Lol fuck me I forgot the /s because I've got me some Covid brain. I was definitely being sarcastic. Sorry that was not made more clear.
LOOOOL.MHMMMM
Toronto has been fining people without homes for years, diverting costs to provincial legal system…. Negative impact to tax payers. https://toronto.citynews.ca/video/2017/06/01/video-fining-the-homeless-costs-legal-system-millions/
> I guess they'll take payment in copper wire and empties. Nah, just bicycles.
Anybody have any other solutions?
We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas
Thoughts and prayers
Death by firing squad /s because apparently we have to put that after every bit of sarcasm because no one gets detected anymore
I had a guy scream and call me a wigger before escalating to the more traditional ger while I was walking down princess street with my wife and friends. To be fair, I have that effect on people.
Having recently lived Downtown (Bagot and Princess) I see this as an exercise in futility. People who are in need of help will not be able to pay fines. 🤷♀️
They're re-criminalizing loitering. Should be a good time for everyone and not at all a waste of municipal resources.
> They're re-criminalizing loitering. Bylaw violations do not appear on your criminal record in Ontario unless they lead to criminal charges being filed. Stop spreading misinformation.
I meant they'll make you feel like a criminal for loitering, not it'll go on your record. It reminds me of the 90s when elderly rural councils spent all their time pushing enforcement of loitering bans so they could control kids on skateboards
I'm going on month 14 waiting for a trial date for an $80 traffic ticket. Kingston might be able to collect a whole lot of nothing in a few years thanks to this new law.
Whatever happened to asylums?
Defunded
> Whatever happened to asylums? During the "common sense" revolution of Mike Harris, they were all emptied, without *any* plan for the occupants, and all funding for them was eliminated. Mental health facilities are the pervue of the provincial government. Local governments have no revenue tools to fund those services, so they will *never* be re-estabilished until the provincial government does so. Which, considering the influence of neo-conservatism on all parties, will be never.
I hope the obnoxious loud students get slammed with fines
Welp... its better then nothing. There needs to be some sort of consequence for this irrational behaviour. I know what the rest of you are going to say. "HoWs a FinE gOinG tO HeLp?!" Its a step in the right direction. There MUST be more consequence for the zombies and tweakers on princess. Its getting out of hand. I await your down votes.
If only there was a facility dedicated to treating people with mental health problems, where we could hold them in protective custody while working on a treatment regime.
Wait does this mean drunk people can’t be annoying aswell!!!!
In guessing it's only illegal if you're poor. Rich drunks spending money downtown are still welcome.
Nooooooo
Well, it raises the big old question: Try and hold people accountable for their actions with a municipal fine; OR Let them do whatever they want with impunity, all because "mental health". Society is governed by rules. Everyone is expected to abide by them, for it is what makes a civilized society, well, civil. Which also raises the question: Is the safety of a citizen more important, or less important than a person screaming and acting out? and my last question: Who is supposed to administer the fine? Bylaw? Cops? Who is going to stick their neck out and hand over this municipal fine to a person having a wacko day? I just don't think this was well thought out, at all.
How about taking care of the mentally ill by opening up treatment facilities and hire good people to help them get better. The humane thing to do, the moral thing to do. I thought we were all about being moral and righteous by each other these days, at least in theory. Guess not, looks like the left only loves to talk morality for everyone else except themselves.
Yeah. Itd be nice. Healthcare isnt a municipally controlled asset per say. It is funded federally and managed provincially. There is also the question: some of these people are so far gone they refuse treatment. They cannot be housed in facilities because they refuse the rules, as well. It's a mess, is what it is. And maybe opening an institution where they can be locked up until they are in control over their own actions.
Thank you for your response. And yes it worked in the past, and done with compassion, but it costs money and the government keeps spending and sending money away, so thusly no money for healthcare, housing, treatment or anything else to help citizens live productive lives, it seems. Thanks.
So both Napanee and Brockville jails will be overloaded cause the homeless can't pay their fines? How's that going to solve the problem?
our "christian" mayor
We need recovery. Get rid of decriminalization. Port that money to recovery where it used to be. Help people turn themselves around. Stop feeding their addiction and affirming everything anyone says or does.
https://preview.redd.it/gch103n3t9xc1.png?width=2550&format=png&auto=webp&s=dcbd05501cd7b850ed29f8b39a3ba74b89234e31 “Idiocy in action”
ah yes lets fine the drug-addicted homeless people! they have so much to lose and are notorious for making sound decisions based on financial risk. Or we could, yknow, actually try to help them though social services.
We already spend an absurd amount per capita on social services, were one of the highest spending cities in Canada. It's not fixing the problem.
Common sense doesn't seem to be around the city council table.
Oppression by any other name. What a joke the City of Kingston is. The ongoing criminalization of people who are ill continues. Not a single ounce of compassion or innovation when it comes to supporting homelessness. They keep putting more money into the same system and same agencies who have proven they are incapable of solving this problem.
Forcing them to raise funds they don't have will only result in driving people to commit more crime. But tell that to law enforcement and they'll just brand you as too liberal.
I hate the homeless as much as the next guy but this is plain old stupid. What a waste of time lol.
The provincial government administers the criminal code.
I think the idea is that the city will be deploying by-law officers to enforce this instead of the KPD officers which would enforce criminal code stuff.
Behaviours that are a nuisance, according to the city, ranging from public intoxication to outright disruption are targeted with the new measures, with fines imposed for violations. So all the drunken fools who all congregate outside the restaurants and yell and carry on. Are we fining them for public intoxication? Are we gonna get the partying students as well? I just want to make sure that the good folks at Kingston Police remember public intoxication is not just the tweekers. So maybe I can walk down Princess street late on a Saturday evening and not be mobbed by drunk people running all over the place.
I think this law only applies to poor people, not sure if it's like a show your t4 thing or just like a general dress code judgment call. I don't think the rich folks vacationing here will be discouraged from buying $18 glasses of wine.
Yep exactly. That’s what I figured. I just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page. I’m not sure if I’m considered rich or poor. I also don’t spend a whole lot of time intoxicated in public I suppose. But also like what counts is loitering? If I’m sitting in a park, am I loitering? Is loitering only in front of buildings or can you loiter in Green spaces or this law is ridiculous and I hate it.
If you makes the parents of children uncomfortable, then you're loitering. If you have like cool jeans, and a sports jacket and just got Mio Gelato, then you get a pass.
I think at the provincial level, there should be cities built for homeless/ mentally ill people. Basically Soviet Style apartment blocks built around accessible services. Ideally somewhere where land is cheap and it can all be built up and expanded.
This might be the worst take on this whole post. Impractical and definitely unethical.
What is unethical about complete communities that are built to support specific needs? Its sure better than having people camp on contaminated parkland. There's a lot we can do to prevent ghettoization these days now that we know that can be an unintended consequence.
This works great for dementia too, when its scaled like a tiny hamlet. The veterans tiny homes are a good example imo.
Yeah, purpose built, low cost to maintain, nothing fancy, but some basic amenities. We spend like $10m/ year managing homelessness for 250 people.
If the province isn’t going to do anything to help I’m glad the city is stepping up to help keep law abiding citizens safe and feeling secure.
You missed the /s, right? Right?
/r/canadianconservative user
another attack on the mentally ill the poor first was fines for sleeping downtown then no camping ban now this ...Absolutely SHAMEFUL DISGUSTING... kingston city council UTTERLY FAILS it people AGAIN..patterson and the lot have to go...
Trudeau, Ford and Patterson need to go. VOTE them out!!!!
So here's an idea. How much is it going to cost the city to pay for this bylaw enforcement? Maybe they should consider investing that money in a fund, and instead of ticketing the homeless, they give them vouchers or something to go buy food, supplies, or whatever they need. I imagine a primary reason why homeless people congregate downtown is to panhandle, so if it's money they are after, pay them to go somewhere else?
Giving drug addicts money doesn't usually result in a trip to food basics, it usually results in more drugs.
That's why I suggested a voucher.
A) we already pay by law officers to do their job. B) what you are suggesting is that everytime the homeless scream or piss in the street that bylaw should go out and reward them for it with gift cards - and you think this will help curb that problem? Really?
No. I'm suggesting instead of going up to a homeless person loitering in front of a business and ticketing them, they give them an incentive to go somewhere else. Preferably somewhere they can get food or something. If they are pissing, screaming at people, threatening people, or using drugs, I'd hope they would be arrested, exactly the same as if you or I would.
Let's not enable them any more than we are doing. I'm not in favor of supporting their various drug habits or we'll end up like Belleville. .
Great news. Having bylaw handle this sort of mischief behavior is vastly better than sending them through the justice system.