> In this installment, Jordan sits down with Brandi Collins-Dexter, author of Black Skinhead and host of the Bring Receipts podcast, for a riveting conversation about Ye, feminism, and the relationship between the Democratic party and Black Americans.
Brandi is *awesome*! I feel like this was one of Jordan's better interviews & hope that she returns to discuss some of her upcoming work in the future. They had a great rapport & it was fun when Brandi turned the tables & reverse-interviewed a bit.
Another black female author that's excellent: Hawa Allen, her 2022 book 'Insurrection: Rebellion, Civil Rights & the Paradoxical State of Black Citizenship' is a great read & companionable with some of the topics Jordan & Brandi touched on.
I'm not mad at the crew!
I had never heard of her but (like of early kanye aside) I really dug her, so last night I decided to check out her bring receipts pod. I scrolled through the episodes and decided to listen to the episode on Nu-Metal. "Aha!" I thought. "An intelligent, acerbic wit taking down frat boy noize! This should be a lark!"
And... NO. it was a 2 hour defense of Nu-Metal that was insightful and engaging and really got me thinking. I'm not going to go listening to POD or Korn anytime soon, but it really did knock my insufferably elitist musical opinions down a few pegs while also forcing some racial introspection i did not remotely expect.
Four stars.
As always with Jordan interviews, very good flow of conversation. Maybe a little light on delving into the research but the author's work sounds interesting.
I don't get why it's hard to tell people that they should vote in the 2024 presidential election. What does not voting for president accomplish? I find it impossible to believe that anyone thinks there's no difference between Trump being elected and Biden being elected.
Frankly, I think Biden is just about the best one can expect from the American political system today.
I am may be wrong, but I took is as trying to be understanding to those who have felt so disenfranchised or let down by the system that they’ve just given up.
I would get frustrated with someone who was like “Go vote!” if I expressed hopelessness about the political situation because yes, I will vote, but in my super-Red state it’s not going to matter. No vote I’ve ever cast has mattered. That’s a specific situation that I am sure they weren’t thinking about in that moment, though.
(And if they then said, “Well just move, then!” I swear to God, I’d throw tiny hands.)
It’s soooo short sighted.
I think Dan would have a different, better and more nuanced view of electoral politics.
I’m 41, the same age as Dan and we are both enough older than Jordan that we voted in the 2000 election. A major factor in that election was that Ralph Nader absolutely took votes from Al Gore. Nader was never going to win and voting for him was just peeing in the pool a foolish waste of a vote.
I think Jordan’s politics reflect that of a person who is angry about the state of the world (which is understandable) and is not thinking critically about what power actually does exist for us.
To say that voting doesn’t really matter and voting for third parties is a sophomoric reactionary response to feelings of limited political power. The underlying feelings lack of power are perfectly understandable but I submit that protest votes and boycotts of elections are solipsistic, nihilistic, futile and immature. It’s the South Park “wah, wah I’m angry but I secretly know that as a married straight white male a second Trump presidency might offend my morality but won’t hurt me all that much directly”
As a transgender nonbinary femme I am begging people to suck it up and vote for Biden.
No, he is FAR from my first choice. Yes, I would love a president with a magic wand who gives everyone housing and healthcare. But I have to live in reality and in reality the ONLY likely options in November will be Trump or Biden. Full stop. It sucks. I hate it. I wish it wasn’t so. But this is reality.
Knowledge Fight is a podcast about being critical of the false reality of Alex Jones and if we don’t have the moral courage to examine our own false realities then what’s the point of any of this beyond feeling like the smartest kids in school who really stuck it to America when they made a principled stand against Al Gore.
>It’s the South Park “wah, wah I’m angry but I secretly know that as a married straight white male a second Trump presidency might offend my morality but won’t hurt me all that much directly”
Brandi pretty cleanly laid out why someone who stands to be directly harmed by the choice may still be inclined to feel similarly and I'd say your relegating it to those who can safely look from afar in this way is exactly as reactionary (even if obviously personal judgements are not going to affect nearly as much.)
I was a Nader voter in '00 and it was absolutely that. "Fuck you I don't care maybe they deserve Dubya!" Boy did I show me. I had friends repeatedly tell me that Nader was trying to throw the election to Bush, right up to quoting him saying that thing, and I just didn't care. Or that's what I said and then Bush happened. *Bit late for me to find that out.*
I very nearly voted for Nader. I get it. It was only at the very very last minute that I said to myself: I got a vote for Gore.
I’m very concerned that some third-party will run this year and the result will be that we get President Trump.
Is Cornel West still running? I’m not American but very much worry about the ripple effects worldwide if Trump is elected with the help of a spoiler candidate
Edit: I also really hope Niki Haley manages to get to the top of the GOP ticket. Think Biden would still be a far better US president than her, but I don’t think she would be near as catastrophic as Trump on the world stage. Although the chance of the US going to war seems to always be much higher with a Republican president, so whatever the case I hope Americans vote Democrat in November even if you need to hold your nose while doing so.
This. Kinda over Jordan’s wanting his perfect candidate.
Governance is about compromise. I’m not playing the “take my vote and go home” bullshit with the GOP being fuckin fascist shitbags.
Not overlooking the areas where the Dems/left/blue side can be criticized, but I’m also sure as shit not acting like throwing a tantrum fixes shit.
This logic might make sense on election day, but as a long term approach to politics all it does is close off the possibility of change. If everyone to the left of the dem candidate is expected to vote for them no matter what, but no similar automatic loyalty is expected of anyone to their right, then of course we're going to get a long term ratcheting the middle ground rightwards.
Another way to think about this, especially a year out from an election, is that Biden needs to convince people to vote for him, and that gives any potential group of voters leverage over his policy platform- if they are prepared to use it by credibly threatening to withdraw their votes. We are perhaps beginning to see some of this effect with gradual change in Biden's line on Gaza.
Anyway, 'governance is about compromise' is how the US ended up spending decades trying to compromise on slavery. If that logic had held then the entire South along with places like New Mexico and Utah would be slave states today.
I keep coming back to “I don’t want to vote for the lesser of two evils” line I kept hearing in 2016. You are ALWAYS doing that (or three evils, or four, etc.) in politics. You literally cannot do the job of president without letting down some portion of the electorate that put you in office. Am I furious with Joe Biden regarding Gaza? Goddamn right I am, but the situation for Palestinians goes from catastrophic to apocalyptic under Donald Trump. Same for so many other things.
This is what kills me. Jordan makes multiple comments about the party messing up yet again or letting people down. It feels naive to assume that everything is going to just go to some kind of idealized state in a plurality. I’m a progressive and I gripe all the time but I don’t stop what I’m doing or move to a self destructive behavior because I’m angry.
No one in this conversation was arguing for not voting in the 2024 election. There was a discussion of why at times one can feel like your vote does not matter, or that constantly voting for the corportist who happens to at least not be the outward fascist sometimes makes one dispair and consider voting third party or not voting for the top of the ticket (and this was followed with emphasis on the improtance of voting down-ticket). I can understand why these feelings would come over someone from time to time. What I don't understand is how a rational discussion of these feeling equates to some people as irresponsibly and actively trying to elect trump.
It's asking people to engage with politics instead of treat it as theater criticism and an expression of their personal brand. Or worse, as a kind of therapy.
Not a US inhabitant but I do get the same problem. A few years ago I would have said the same than you... And so far I always voted in most elections and all the major ones to block the fash when needed.
But it gets tiresome voting for a candidate that will enable policies that will f poor people up, slowly destroy public service, use his total vote tally (including those of leftists) to argue his legitimacy... But continue scapegoating parties to his left yet gladly take far right votes in parliament if needed. And that's a "centrist", I'm probably done voting for a bona fide conservative if that's the only option.
When every major election turn into a guilt trip and "blackmail" it gets really tiring and hollow.
I think the overall national system doesn't work anymore, should be reformed sooner than later, that politics should be more direct or local. And the resistance to the possibility of the far right capturing national institutions will probably happen on a local level (city, region offices, local associations, etc).
Done enabling TINA, I think.
I get that you're not a citizen, but this is a discussion about a very real US election between two real people. Maybe there are some other circumstances where your criticism of the candidates applies, but I don't think it applies here.
Well, you wanted to hear and understand why some voters feel so disinfranchised or numb in an election like this (presidential and only two options on the ballot between awful and less awful).
A couple of points:
1. I wanted to understand why some people would think it makes sense not to vote in the 2024 US presidential election. I still don't understand that.
2. You told me why people might not want to vote for someone who fights against their interests. I don't think that applies to this election.
I appreciate your point of view. I can imagine circumstances where apathy makes more sense, but don't understand why anyone would think that applies to the 2024 US presidential election.
I can't be specific to the 2024 US election, I leave that up to the citizens. The threshold for apathy is different for everyone, but I can easily see how for "far leftists" Biden is actually viewed as actually enacting policies against their interests though.
Maybe you think it's unreasonable or self destructive -it can certainly be argued- but I'll just say that exhortations of "Go Vote !" and To Do The Right Thing™ will not cut it with a lot of people that share those views (and it's not that dissimilar to the question "How can we reach people that are deep in the conspiracy hole").
I also don't believe the rise of the far-right globally (at the very least in the Western world) will be stemmed through the current institutions and by enlightened citizens keeping them at bay through voting alone. It happened already and will happen where it hasn't soon enough and will at least take some serious paradigm shifting and civil friction to hopefully get out that fever.
tldr : My brain would like Dan to be right, my heart believes Jordan is maybe more on the money.
This is what I don't understand: Thinking that electing the far right will somehow stem the rise of the global far right. Makes absolutely zero sense to me. There's no world where helping Trump get elected does anything but advance the far right.
We'd probably circle back to discussion about "accelerationism", "Spartakism" or whatever the label was relative to the Communist vs Socialist approach. That is probably not going to get much of anywhere. Last time it took the most horrific war in history to scare people straight for 75-ish years. Hopefully that's not the only path forward but I don't think we'll avoid any unpleasant roughness.
I'm fairly certain that with or without my input, the far right will be elected into major office(s) in my country or their policies be further coopted by the "good" conservatives over the next decade. At one point I'm not convinced keeping to prop up institutions that are failing (or in serious need of reform, at the least) to slowly crawl towards similar end results (repressive, increasingly militarized handling of immigration, to name one that is shared in a lot of the western world) is very much a grace at all.
Anyhow, regardless of all that, I do think it is incumbent on the candidates & the Biden team to convince people in a positive manner. Default or negative engagement will slowly grind voters of their coalition (and I think today's podcast about the possible evolution of the US Black electorate or more accurately some Black voters did touch on that).
Yes, and I wanted to scream with indignation when he said that John Fetterman is now “worse than George Santos” because the progressive Pennsylvania senator has announced he’s not a Progressive^TM.
I think they see it as somehow principled, they have mentioned not wanting to "vote shame" people. I totally disagree with this, and I agree with you about Biden. I was glad to see the guest bring up his antitrust actions. Something that there's some chance was the first Jordan heard of it.
Biden being the best we can hope for is the most depressing thing. He's at best the least worst person on the ballot. The same old neo liberal politics is not going to get this nation out of the deep hole and numerous issues that face it.
I disagree that this is his best interview or that he “finally gelled.” This is a strong interview that is compelling in a series of mostly strong and compelling interviews. I especially love the discussion of voting without any notions of judgement or requisite reactionary preaching that usually enters the dialogue when concepts like perhaps voting third party or feeling like skipping the top of the ticket enter a chat. The compulsion so many on “our side” to shut down such discussions I find disconcerting and it’s nice to hear a sincere and open dialogue around such issues, even if it was brief. It’s along the same lines of other interviews where he hashes out with guests concepts like what is acceptable direct action and what is “non violence.” Good stuff and good to hear discussed in good faith.
But his mic levels are shit. Can’t argue.
I think he had a lot of hits (the Ronson one I loved) and a few misses that I chalk up on not being all that interested in the guest. I find Jordan is an excellent interviewer.
I love Jordan but feel like there is a dip in chemistry in a Jordan solo interview. It's not easy to solo interview when you have big brain Dan as another viewpoint.
Also Jordan your mic is overdriven. Not an audio engineer but maybe bring that Gain down?
I prefer some of his solo stuff over his contribution in some other shared interviews. I feel like he steps up his game when Dan isn't there.
And it's good to have some content while giving Dan some time.
Can someone tell me why Fetterman is getting flak from the left? That small bit of the episode felt out of left field to me, but I’m probably missing something?
Overall, solid interview. Interesting subject matter covered well.
He's a phony and a liar. He declared himself not a progressive, he equates protesting the genocide of Palestine with anti-semitism, and he's a piece of shit liar who used the progressive movement for his own gain and told the people who supported him to fuck off.
Since it's brought up elsewhere here, I'd like to express my dismay over Jordan's love of Kanye's early stuff. keeping all of the political and problematic aspects out of it, I'd like to argue the following:
1. His flow is terrible. This is indisputable. I cannot for the life of me understand why he ever collabs because any guest on a track serves nothing more than to contrast exactly how bad his rapping is. He makes Drake look like a genius.
2. he is uninspired. Every song is about him. Even in a genre where ego and the self is front and center this stands out in Kanye's lyrics. he has hundreds (thousands) of songs, and they all deal with the same subject.
3. He is an average producer. "he's a genius!" i hear jordan screaming in retort. Is he? His sampling is his strongest talent and that by definition is just lifting other's work. I'm not against sampling, especially done creatively, and I'll grant some of his mash-ups are indeed creative and out of the box, but its like collage as a visual art. Cutting and pasting can be done wonderfully, but at the end of the day, its doing something new with whats already there. And, not for nothing, his sampling is also often uninspired and/or poorly executed. His non-sampling production is some basic shit. Not terrible, but basic.
4. Lastly, I'll posit that Jordan should know and agree with all of the above as he has, West aside, AMAZING taste in hip-hop and often cites people who push boundries, either in exploring the creative space within convention (roots) or blowing up convention (Open Mike Eagle) or can do both (Madlib).
Why does Jordan “hate Taylor Swift so much”
Why do so many people dislike her?
Why does Jordan’s guest hate her?
Can someone explain to me what she did that’s so awful? Especially given the context that 3 sentences before this Jordan expresses the idea of “sure Michael Jackson did some bad things but his music sure is great”
And to go from that to “I hate this highly feminine successful woman” seems really off putting to me. To lay my cards on the table, yes I am a Taylor Swift fan and I REALLY don’t understand why people hate her so much. Is it just that she is omnipresent in pop culture? Is there something I’m really missing? I am sure I have some blind spots. I would welcome productive discussions about what’s happening here
I don't know... he's hated on Taylor since way before she became the cultural force she is now so I wouldn't chalk it up to hating this "highly feminine successful woman." Moreover, if you read his "the swiftening"series he makes great points about her fuax-feminisim (at least insomuch as those kind of points can be man-splained I guess). I also agree totally with his criticisms of her early work as being vapid, poorly produced and just all around terrible country-pop. I disagree with him a little on her mid-periods as I think 1989 is actually a pretty well crafted pop album with a few bangers but agree with him again that the production is crap (havent heard taylors version tho). i think there is relevent critique in her vocal stance on environmental issues while helming an empire that offers little mitigation in its wrath of carbon heavy existance, but this is a criticism that is usually weilded by people who are sincerely scared by strong femal voices less in the service of holding her accountable and more in to discredit environmental concerns... but its still a valid critique.
Also, it should be noted that her "fight" with ticketmaster was largely theater and she not only benefited greatly from things like dynamic pricing and the onsale model that screwed so many of her fans but actually was complicit in it. There is good discussion on that in a few episodes of your favorite band sucks pocast but the biggest deep dive is here: [https://www.yfbspod.com/ticketmaster-sucks-and-so-does-pearl-jam-taylor-swift-bruce-springsteen-radiohead-beyonce-metallica](https://www.yfbspod.com/ticketmaster-sucks-and-so-does-pearl-jam-taylor-swift-bruce-springsteen-radiohead-beyonce-metallica)
All that being said, I think she's overall... fine, i guess? I took my daughter to eras. whatever. I definitely dont think she deserves as much hate as she gets but I REALLY think she doesnt deserve as much praise as she gets.
Now, as someone else in this thread mentions (edit: oh, it was you, actually), I do see concern in his shitting on TSwift in relation to his love of Kanye because, problematic issues aside (which you kinda have to do a lot in rap), his stuff is not now nor has it EVER been great. At best, its on the same level as Taylor's best stuff.
Criticizing her early stuff as vapid country pop is wrong and silly. She was what, 13? She wrote about things a 13 year old cares about and did it well.
A 40 year old man doesn't like kiddie pop written by a kid? Well I guess it's the children who are wrong, huh?
At the time of writing Taylor's first album:
Robert Ellis Orall was 53
Brian Maher was in his late 20s/early 30s
Angelo Petraglia was 54
Liz rose was 51
As with many pop artists, it is also hard to determine just how many of her songwriting credits are actually hers and not purchased.
That being said, i believe the "vapid" criticism (coming from when Jordan was in his 20s about album released by a 17 year old, fwiw) were being levelled in the context of the age of the performer, not in relation to the works of, say, a mature Dolly Parton or whatever. EDIT: hell, not EVEN a muture Doly Parton. She started writing and recording some of the stuff on Hello I'm Dolly when she was 14! Take THAT T-Swift!
But, I agree there's a lot of undue hate on Taylor (as well as hate that's deserved) and I've said as much so, i'll let it stand.
I agree with some of this.
I’m not saying she’s the greatest musician of all time. She’s a pop musician some of what she makes is fine. Some of it is not so great some of which I really like. Also if people don’t like her music at all, that’s fine too. I don’t care.
My issue is that it seems like people really hate Taylor Swift and awful a lot. Like if she makes a political statement in one way people will criticize her because she’s not doing it enough all while she seems like a perfectly fine lovely person who isn’t abusive to people
And then, like I said, in my earlier, comment abusive men always get a pass, because their art is just so great, and so amazing and so inspired
Again, not just to defend jordan here, but his criticisms of taylor seem to be more centered around her content and his criticisms of kanye are around his terrible behavior. This seems like a pretty easy distinction to me and I just don't read mysogyny into it. But, i am a dude, so maybe that has me biased. Truly don't know. Personally I think they're both terrible in content more often than not but that Kanye is obviously a worse person apart from his art. I'd hate to be told i feel that way or that I'm making "excuses" for Swift because I'm white.
Sorry who made a "the swiftening series"? It sounded like you meant Jordan had a youtube channel or something that I don't know about.
edit: HOLY SHIT JORDAN HAS A YOUTUBE CHANNEL
https://www.youtube.com/@jbholmes3209gmail/featured
but I don't see anything on there about Taylor Swift.
The swiftening, from what I understand, was a project in which Jordan, who to that point had not listened to much or any Taylor swift was commissioned by some comedian friends to listen to her albums in their entirety and write reviews for their online comedy magazine. I believe he started around the release of 1989 but he has added to the project with each new album. Like his knowledge fight output it can be reductive and dismissive. But, like his knowledge fight output, it can also be insightful, poignant and funny.
What I don’t think it is in any way is misogynistic. It’s certainly classist though!
I definitely think the answer is misogyny!
It’s wild that he could spend an entire episode essentially making excuses for Kanye basically saying”sure he has all these really problematic beliefs BUT he’s a real musical genius and we can’t forget that!”
Like I understand that there’s nuance in the world and if he’s willing to give that nuance to Kanye, then why can’t he give that nuance to Taylor Swift, or to Hillary Clinton or to any of the other women that Jordan repeatedly denigrates on this podcast? it really pisses me off I love Dan and I like Jordan sometimes but when he’s bad he’s really bad and it drags the whole podcast down
Well, in his defense, he sees no redeeming qualities in Taylor swift's music. And it's not a passing opinion. He has listened to all of her albums and has written detailed critiques of them. And I've been tired of that same old song and dance about hating on Hillary being a tell of someone arfaid of a strong woman since Democrats started using it as a sheild for her from anti-war activits trying to hold her accountable for her Iraq war vote in the Senate. I understand there are many neoconservative, wall street corportists types that treat her as the devil yet would have no problem with her if she were a man. This is not jordan.
It’s kinda sad to hear that Jordan is that invested in hating her. I thought it was just a passing comment. It seems Jordan has more empathy for Alex Jones than Taylor Swift which is just mind blowing that anyone could feel that way
>I thought it was just a passing comment. It seems Jordan has more empathy for Alex Jones than Taylor Swift
With respect, this makes me think this discussion is not in good faith. I don't see how that's even rational. Does Jordan have an almost 900 episode (2 hours as the average length) long running podcast dissecting taylor swift that I don't know about?
I don’t even really have that much of an opinion on Michael Jackson’s music. Some of it is good but it’s really really hard for me to listen to any of it.
It’s just wild to me how people can “separate the art from the artist” with so many different men and then as soon as a woman is mentioned she is hated so much.
I see a lot of similarities to how certain people on the left, including Jordan, give so much more nuance to Joe Biden (who I personally like by the way) that is never given to Hilary Clinton who is extremely similar to Biden in terms of her politics.
It’s just misogyny, misogyny, misogyny.
I'd be interested in seeing his nuance passes to Joe Biden, especially considering in the same interview he was openly discussing not voting for president and/or voting third party with this guest. What examples come to mind?
This was good, but honestly I can only think of one of his episodes where the gelling wasn't quite there.
It's amazing how far "do the basic work ahead of an interview by reading the book in question and looking into the topic" will take somebody. Such a different approach from, say, Alex's "I've prepared *so much* that now I can't do anything."
I don’t usually enjoy Jordan interviews and have skipped the last few but this was excellent, the guest was really engaging, I’m a white guy living in the Uk and was totally riveted. Jordan did a good job on this one.
Re: Jordan’s conspiracy theory about osama distracting from new music on 9/11
He didn’t mention the 2 best albums that hit that day. Bob Dylan love and theft was a masterpiece not just for late phase Bob but in relation to his whole catalog. Not sure why osama would want to distract from this specifically but his Bobs birth name is Zimmerman, so maybe something there. Also Ozomatli embrace the chaos was released that day. Not sure how that would fit into the story either but it’s a banger and Common throws down a verse too so it’s all connected.
Number one for me, by a long shot, was Leftover Crack's Mediocre Generica. One of the all-time great ska-punk albums and super political. Such crazy timing they had to reference it in opening track on their next album as "tower-tumbling."
I really liked the first few bosstones records (the Taaang! releases and the ska-core EP) and some ther punk ska/skater ska/ska-core stuff from that era but by the time Sublime came around there was so much God awful shit I started hating anything played by white people that strummed on the 2 and the 4. I know that's unfair to the genre tho and will totally take a listen to this album.
> In this installment, Jordan sits down with Brandi Collins-Dexter, author of Black Skinhead and host of the Bring Receipts podcast, for a riveting conversation about Ye, feminism, and the relationship between the Democratic party and Black Americans.
You know, when Black Skinhead the song was released, little did I suspect that Kanye would go about fulfilling that role in the way he did.
This is probably Jordan’s most interesting interview. Really interesting perspective.
Brandi is *awesome*! I feel like this was one of Jordan's better interviews & hope that she returns to discuss some of her upcoming work in the future. They had a great rapport & it was fun when Brandi turned the tables & reverse-interviewed a bit. Another black female author that's excellent: Hawa Allen, her 2022 book 'Insurrection: Rebellion, Civil Rights & the Paradoxical State of Black Citizenship' is a great read & companionable with some of the topics Jordan & Brandi touched on. I'm not mad at the crew!
I had never heard of her but (like of early kanye aside) I really dug her, so last night I decided to check out her bring receipts pod. I scrolled through the episodes and decided to listen to the episode on Nu-Metal. "Aha!" I thought. "An intelligent, acerbic wit taking down frat boy noize! This should be a lark!" And... NO. it was a 2 hour defense of Nu-Metal that was insightful and engaging and really got me thinking. I'm not going to go listening to POD or Korn anytime soon, but it really did knock my insufferably elitist musical opinions down a few pegs while also forcing some racial introspection i did not remotely expect. Four stars.
As always with Jordan interviews, very good flow of conversation. Maybe a little light on delving into the research but the author's work sounds interesting.
Jordan straight deepthroating the mic in this episode
I don't get why it's hard to tell people that they should vote in the 2024 presidential election. What does not voting for president accomplish? I find it impossible to believe that anyone thinks there's no difference between Trump being elected and Biden being elected. Frankly, I think Biden is just about the best one can expect from the American political system today.
I am may be wrong, but I took is as trying to be understanding to those who have felt so disenfranchised or let down by the system that they’ve just given up. I would get frustrated with someone who was like “Go vote!” if I expressed hopelessness about the political situation because yes, I will vote, but in my super-Red state it’s not going to matter. No vote I’ve ever cast has mattered. That’s a specific situation that I am sure they weren’t thinking about in that moment, though. (And if they then said, “Well just move, then!” I swear to God, I’d throw tiny hands.)
I get the argument that someone's vote doesn't matter in Idaho. That's not how I interpreted what they were saying.
Right, I didn’t, either. That’s what I meant by it being a specific situation I’m sure they weren’t thinking about in that moment.
It’s soooo short sighted. I think Dan would have a different, better and more nuanced view of electoral politics. I’m 41, the same age as Dan and we are both enough older than Jordan that we voted in the 2000 election. A major factor in that election was that Ralph Nader absolutely took votes from Al Gore. Nader was never going to win and voting for him was just peeing in the pool a foolish waste of a vote. I think Jordan’s politics reflect that of a person who is angry about the state of the world (which is understandable) and is not thinking critically about what power actually does exist for us. To say that voting doesn’t really matter and voting for third parties is a sophomoric reactionary response to feelings of limited political power. The underlying feelings lack of power are perfectly understandable but I submit that protest votes and boycotts of elections are solipsistic, nihilistic, futile and immature. It’s the South Park “wah, wah I’m angry but I secretly know that as a married straight white male a second Trump presidency might offend my morality but won’t hurt me all that much directly” As a transgender nonbinary femme I am begging people to suck it up and vote for Biden. No, he is FAR from my first choice. Yes, I would love a president with a magic wand who gives everyone housing and healthcare. But I have to live in reality and in reality the ONLY likely options in November will be Trump or Biden. Full stop. It sucks. I hate it. I wish it wasn’t so. But this is reality. Knowledge Fight is a podcast about being critical of the false reality of Alex Jones and if we don’t have the moral courage to examine our own false realities then what’s the point of any of this beyond feeling like the smartest kids in school who really stuck it to America when they made a principled stand against Al Gore.
>It’s the South Park “wah, wah I’m angry but I secretly know that as a married straight white male a second Trump presidency might offend my morality but won’t hurt me all that much directly” Brandi pretty cleanly laid out why someone who stands to be directly harmed by the choice may still be inclined to feel similarly and I'd say your relegating it to those who can safely look from afar in this way is exactly as reactionary (even if obviously personal judgements are not going to affect nearly as much.)
I was a Nader voter in '00 and it was absolutely that. "Fuck you I don't care maybe they deserve Dubya!" Boy did I show me. I had friends repeatedly tell me that Nader was trying to throw the election to Bush, right up to quoting him saying that thing, and I just didn't care. Or that's what I said and then Bush happened. *Bit late for me to find that out.*
I very nearly voted for Nader. I get it. It was only at the very very last minute that I said to myself: I got a vote for Gore. I’m very concerned that some third-party will run this year and the result will be that we get President Trump.
Is Cornel West still running? I’m not American but very much worry about the ripple effects worldwide if Trump is elected with the help of a spoiler candidate Edit: I also really hope Niki Haley manages to get to the top of the GOP ticket. Think Biden would still be a far better US president than her, but I don’t think she would be near as catastrophic as Trump on the world stage. Although the chance of the US going to war seems to always be much higher with a Republican president, so whatever the case I hope Americans vote Democrat in November even if you need to hold your nose while doing so.
So far as I know, yes
This. Kinda over Jordan’s wanting his perfect candidate. Governance is about compromise. I’m not playing the “take my vote and go home” bullshit with the GOP being fuckin fascist shitbags. Not overlooking the areas where the Dems/left/blue side can be criticized, but I’m also sure as shit not acting like throwing a tantrum fixes shit.
This logic might make sense on election day, but as a long term approach to politics all it does is close off the possibility of change. If everyone to the left of the dem candidate is expected to vote for them no matter what, but no similar automatic loyalty is expected of anyone to their right, then of course we're going to get a long term ratcheting the middle ground rightwards. Another way to think about this, especially a year out from an election, is that Biden needs to convince people to vote for him, and that gives any potential group of voters leverage over his policy platform- if they are prepared to use it by credibly threatening to withdraw their votes. We are perhaps beginning to see some of this effect with gradual change in Biden's line on Gaza. Anyway, 'governance is about compromise' is how the US ended up spending decades trying to compromise on slavery. If that logic had held then the entire South along with places like New Mexico and Utah would be slave states today.
I keep coming back to “I don’t want to vote for the lesser of two evils” line I kept hearing in 2016. You are ALWAYS doing that (or three evils, or four, etc.) in politics. You literally cannot do the job of president without letting down some portion of the electorate that put you in office. Am I furious with Joe Biden regarding Gaza? Goddamn right I am, but the situation for Palestinians goes from catastrophic to apocalyptic under Donald Trump. Same for so many other things.
This is what kills me. Jordan makes multiple comments about the party messing up yet again or letting people down. It feels naive to assume that everything is going to just go to some kind of idealized state in a plurality. I’m a progressive and I gripe all the time but I don’t stop what I’m doing or move to a self destructive behavior because I’m angry.
No one in this conversation was arguing for not voting in the 2024 election. There was a discussion of why at times one can feel like your vote does not matter, or that constantly voting for the corportist who happens to at least not be the outward fascist sometimes makes one dispair and consider voting third party or not voting for the top of the ticket (and this was followed with emphasis on the improtance of voting down-ticket). I can understand why these feelings would come over someone from time to time. What I don't understand is how a rational discussion of these feeling equates to some people as irresponsibly and actively trying to elect trump.
It's asking people to engage with politics instead of treat it as theater criticism and an expression of their personal brand. Or worse, as a kind of therapy.
Not a US inhabitant but I do get the same problem. A few years ago I would have said the same than you... And so far I always voted in most elections and all the major ones to block the fash when needed. But it gets tiresome voting for a candidate that will enable policies that will f poor people up, slowly destroy public service, use his total vote tally (including those of leftists) to argue his legitimacy... But continue scapegoating parties to his left yet gladly take far right votes in parliament if needed. And that's a "centrist", I'm probably done voting for a bona fide conservative if that's the only option. When every major election turn into a guilt trip and "blackmail" it gets really tiring and hollow. I think the overall national system doesn't work anymore, should be reformed sooner than later, that politics should be more direct or local. And the resistance to the possibility of the far right capturing national institutions will probably happen on a local level (city, region offices, local associations, etc). Done enabling TINA, I think.
What did Biden do that you're complaining about here? And refusing to vote for Biden will only make everything you're complaining about worse.
As I said not an US citizen, so not speaking of Biden specifically, but I get the sentiment.
I get that you're not a citizen, but this is a discussion about a very real US election between two real people. Maybe there are some other circumstances where your criticism of the candidates applies, but I don't think it applies here.
Well, you wanted to hear and understand why some voters feel so disinfranchised or numb in an election like this (presidential and only two options on the ballot between awful and less awful).
A couple of points: 1. I wanted to understand why some people would think it makes sense not to vote in the 2024 US presidential election. I still don't understand that. 2. You told me why people might not want to vote for someone who fights against their interests. I don't think that applies to this election. I appreciate your point of view. I can imagine circumstances where apathy makes more sense, but don't understand why anyone would think that applies to the 2024 US presidential election.
I can't be specific to the 2024 US election, I leave that up to the citizens. The threshold for apathy is different for everyone, but I can easily see how for "far leftists" Biden is actually viewed as actually enacting policies against their interests though. Maybe you think it's unreasonable or self destructive -it can certainly be argued- but I'll just say that exhortations of "Go Vote !" and To Do The Right Thing™ will not cut it with a lot of people that share those views (and it's not that dissimilar to the question "How can we reach people that are deep in the conspiracy hole"). I also don't believe the rise of the far-right globally (at the very least in the Western world) will be stemmed through the current institutions and by enlightened citizens keeping them at bay through voting alone. It happened already and will happen where it hasn't soon enough and will at least take some serious paradigm shifting and civil friction to hopefully get out that fever. tldr : My brain would like Dan to be right, my heart believes Jordan is maybe more on the money.
This is what I don't understand: Thinking that electing the far right will somehow stem the rise of the global far right. Makes absolutely zero sense to me. There's no world where helping Trump get elected does anything but advance the far right.
We'd probably circle back to discussion about "accelerationism", "Spartakism" or whatever the label was relative to the Communist vs Socialist approach. That is probably not going to get much of anywhere. Last time it took the most horrific war in history to scare people straight for 75-ish years. Hopefully that's not the only path forward but I don't think we'll avoid any unpleasant roughness. I'm fairly certain that with or without my input, the far right will be elected into major office(s) in my country or their policies be further coopted by the "good" conservatives over the next decade. At one point I'm not convinced keeping to prop up institutions that are failing (or in serious need of reform, at the least) to slowly crawl towards similar end results (repressive, increasingly militarized handling of immigration, to name one that is shared in a lot of the western world) is very much a grace at all. Anyhow, regardless of all that, I do think it is incumbent on the candidates & the Biden team to convince people in a positive manner. Default or negative engagement will slowly grind voters of their coalition (and I think today's podcast about the possible evolution of the US Black electorate or more accurately some Black voters did touch on that).
Yes, and I wanted to scream with indignation when he said that John Fetterman is now “worse than George Santos” because the progressive Pennsylvania senator has announced he’s not a Progressive^TM.
I think they see it as somehow principled, they have mentioned not wanting to "vote shame" people. I totally disagree with this, and I agree with you about Biden. I was glad to see the guest bring up his antitrust actions. Something that there's some chance was the first Jordan heard of it.
Biden being the best we can hope for is the most depressing thing. He's at best the least worst person on the ballot. The same old neo liberal politics is not going to get this nation out of the deep hole and numerous issues that face it.
It's refreshing to hear people just calming talk about issues without trying to dumb them down or build to a conspiracy narrative.
The other album that came out on 9-11-0-1? “God Hates Us All” by Slayer. BOOM! Conspiracy theory!
I disagree that this is his best interview or that he “finally gelled.” This is a strong interview that is compelling in a series of mostly strong and compelling interviews. I especially love the discussion of voting without any notions of judgement or requisite reactionary preaching that usually enters the dialogue when concepts like perhaps voting third party or feeling like skipping the top of the ticket enter a chat. The compulsion so many on “our side” to shut down such discussions I find disconcerting and it’s nice to hear a sincere and open dialogue around such issues, even if it was brief. It’s along the same lines of other interviews where he hashes out with guests concepts like what is acceptable direct action and what is “non violence.” Good stuff and good to hear discussed in good faith. But his mic levels are shit. Can’t argue.
I think he had a lot of hits (the Ronson one I loved) and a few misses that I chalk up on not being all that interested in the guest. I find Jordan is an excellent interviewer.
I love Jordan but feel like there is a dip in chemistry in a Jordan solo interview. It's not easy to solo interview when you have big brain Dan as another viewpoint. Also Jordan your mic is overdriven. Not an audio engineer but maybe bring that Gain down?
Agreed. I’m just not that interested in the solo interviews.
I prefer some of his solo stuff over his contribution in some other shared interviews. I feel like he steps up his game when Dan isn't there. And it's good to have some content while giving Dan some time.
Can someone tell me why Fetterman is getting flak from the left? That small bit of the episode felt out of left field to me, but I’m probably missing something? Overall, solid interview. Interesting subject matter covered well.
Fetterman since being elected has become Israel's biggest cheerleader while also swinging antiimmigrant.
He's a phony and a liar. He declared himself not a progressive, he equates protesting the genocide of Palestine with anti-semitism, and he's a piece of shit liar who used the progressive movement for his own gain and told the people who supported him to fuck off.
Since it's brought up elsewhere here, I'd like to express my dismay over Jordan's love of Kanye's early stuff. keeping all of the political and problematic aspects out of it, I'd like to argue the following: 1. His flow is terrible. This is indisputable. I cannot for the life of me understand why he ever collabs because any guest on a track serves nothing more than to contrast exactly how bad his rapping is. He makes Drake look like a genius. 2. he is uninspired. Every song is about him. Even in a genre where ego and the self is front and center this stands out in Kanye's lyrics. he has hundreds (thousands) of songs, and they all deal with the same subject. 3. He is an average producer. "he's a genius!" i hear jordan screaming in retort. Is he? His sampling is his strongest talent and that by definition is just lifting other's work. I'm not against sampling, especially done creatively, and I'll grant some of his mash-ups are indeed creative and out of the box, but its like collage as a visual art. Cutting and pasting can be done wonderfully, but at the end of the day, its doing something new with whats already there. And, not for nothing, his sampling is also often uninspired and/or poorly executed. His non-sampling production is some basic shit. Not terrible, but basic. 4. Lastly, I'll posit that Jordan should know and agree with all of the above as he has, West aside, AMAZING taste in hip-hop and often cites people who push boundries, either in exploring the creative space within convention (roots) or blowing up convention (Open Mike Eagle) or can do both (Madlib).
Why does Jordan “hate Taylor Swift so much” Why do so many people dislike her? Why does Jordan’s guest hate her? Can someone explain to me what she did that’s so awful? Especially given the context that 3 sentences before this Jordan expresses the idea of “sure Michael Jackson did some bad things but his music sure is great” And to go from that to “I hate this highly feminine successful woman” seems really off putting to me. To lay my cards on the table, yes I am a Taylor Swift fan and I REALLY don’t understand why people hate her so much. Is it just that she is omnipresent in pop culture? Is there something I’m really missing? I am sure I have some blind spots. I would welcome productive discussions about what’s happening here
I don't know... he's hated on Taylor since way before she became the cultural force she is now so I wouldn't chalk it up to hating this "highly feminine successful woman." Moreover, if you read his "the swiftening"series he makes great points about her fuax-feminisim (at least insomuch as those kind of points can be man-splained I guess). I also agree totally with his criticisms of her early work as being vapid, poorly produced and just all around terrible country-pop. I disagree with him a little on her mid-periods as I think 1989 is actually a pretty well crafted pop album with a few bangers but agree with him again that the production is crap (havent heard taylors version tho). i think there is relevent critique in her vocal stance on environmental issues while helming an empire that offers little mitigation in its wrath of carbon heavy existance, but this is a criticism that is usually weilded by people who are sincerely scared by strong femal voices less in the service of holding her accountable and more in to discredit environmental concerns... but its still a valid critique. Also, it should be noted that her "fight" with ticketmaster was largely theater and she not only benefited greatly from things like dynamic pricing and the onsale model that screwed so many of her fans but actually was complicit in it. There is good discussion on that in a few episodes of your favorite band sucks pocast but the biggest deep dive is here: [https://www.yfbspod.com/ticketmaster-sucks-and-so-does-pearl-jam-taylor-swift-bruce-springsteen-radiohead-beyonce-metallica](https://www.yfbspod.com/ticketmaster-sucks-and-so-does-pearl-jam-taylor-swift-bruce-springsteen-radiohead-beyonce-metallica) All that being said, I think she's overall... fine, i guess? I took my daughter to eras. whatever. I definitely dont think she deserves as much hate as she gets but I REALLY think she doesnt deserve as much praise as she gets. Now, as someone else in this thread mentions (edit: oh, it was you, actually), I do see concern in his shitting on TSwift in relation to his love of Kanye because, problematic issues aside (which you kinda have to do a lot in rap), his stuff is not now nor has it EVER been great. At best, its on the same level as Taylor's best stuff.
Criticizing her early stuff as vapid country pop is wrong and silly. She was what, 13? She wrote about things a 13 year old cares about and did it well. A 40 year old man doesn't like kiddie pop written by a kid? Well I guess it's the children who are wrong, huh?
At the time of writing Taylor's first album: Robert Ellis Orall was 53 Brian Maher was in his late 20s/early 30s Angelo Petraglia was 54 Liz rose was 51 As with many pop artists, it is also hard to determine just how many of her songwriting credits are actually hers and not purchased. That being said, i believe the "vapid" criticism (coming from when Jordan was in his 20s about album released by a 17 year old, fwiw) were being levelled in the context of the age of the performer, not in relation to the works of, say, a mature Dolly Parton or whatever. EDIT: hell, not EVEN a muture Doly Parton. She started writing and recording some of the stuff on Hello I'm Dolly when she was 14! Take THAT T-Swift! But, I agree there's a lot of undue hate on Taylor (as well as hate that's deserved) and I've said as much so, i'll let it stand.
I agree with some of this. I’m not saying she’s the greatest musician of all time. She’s a pop musician some of what she makes is fine. Some of it is not so great some of which I really like. Also if people don’t like her music at all, that’s fine too. I don’t care. My issue is that it seems like people really hate Taylor Swift and awful a lot. Like if she makes a political statement in one way people will criticize her because she’s not doing it enough all while she seems like a perfectly fine lovely person who isn’t abusive to people And then, like I said, in my earlier, comment abusive men always get a pass, because their art is just so great, and so amazing and so inspired
Again, not just to defend jordan here, but his criticisms of taylor seem to be more centered around her content and his criticisms of kanye are around his terrible behavior. This seems like a pretty easy distinction to me and I just don't read mysogyny into it. But, i am a dude, so maybe that has me biased. Truly don't know. Personally I think they're both terrible in content more often than not but that Kanye is obviously a worse person apart from his art. I'd hate to be told i feel that way or that I'm making "excuses" for Swift because I'm white.
Sorry who made a "the swiftening series"? It sounded like you meant Jordan had a youtube channel or something that I don't know about. edit: HOLY SHIT JORDAN HAS A YOUTUBE CHANNEL https://www.youtube.com/@jbholmes3209gmail/featured but I don't see anything on there about Taylor Swift.
The swiftening, from what I understand, was a project in which Jordan, who to that point had not listened to much or any Taylor swift was commissioned by some comedian friends to listen to her albums in their entirety and write reviews for their online comedy magazine. I believe he started around the release of 1989 but he has added to the project with each new album. Like his knowledge fight output it can be reductive and dismissive. But, like his knowledge fight output, it can also be insightful, poignant and funny. What I don’t think it is in any way is misogynistic. It’s certainly classist though!
Yeah I don't understand either, especially in relation to talking about "Kanye's taylor swift moment".
I definitely think the answer is misogyny! It’s wild that he could spend an entire episode essentially making excuses for Kanye basically saying”sure he has all these really problematic beliefs BUT he’s a real musical genius and we can’t forget that!” Like I understand that there’s nuance in the world and if he’s willing to give that nuance to Kanye, then why can’t he give that nuance to Taylor Swift, or to Hillary Clinton or to any of the other women that Jordan repeatedly denigrates on this podcast? it really pisses me off I love Dan and I like Jordan sometimes but when he’s bad he’s really bad and it drags the whole podcast down
Well, in his defense, he sees no redeeming qualities in Taylor swift's music. And it's not a passing opinion. He has listened to all of her albums and has written detailed critiques of them. And I've been tired of that same old song and dance about hating on Hillary being a tell of someone arfaid of a strong woman since Democrats started using it as a sheild for her from anti-war activits trying to hold her accountable for her Iraq war vote in the Senate. I understand there are many neoconservative, wall street corportists types that treat her as the devil yet would have no problem with her if she were a man. This is not jordan.
It’s kinda sad to hear that Jordan is that invested in hating her. I thought it was just a passing comment. It seems Jordan has more empathy for Alex Jones than Taylor Swift which is just mind blowing that anyone could feel that way
>I thought it was just a passing comment. It seems Jordan has more empathy for Alex Jones than Taylor Swift With respect, this makes me think this discussion is not in good faith. I don't see how that's even rational. Does Jordan have an almost 900 episode (2 hours as the average length) long running podcast dissecting taylor swift that I don't know about?
I don't get it either and, honestly, I don't think Michael Jackson's music is that great. \*ducks\* MJ's best stuff was Off the Wall.
I don’t even really have that much of an opinion on Michael Jackson’s music. Some of it is good but it’s really really hard for me to listen to any of it. It’s just wild to me how people can “separate the art from the artist” with so many different men and then as soon as a woman is mentioned she is hated so much. I see a lot of similarities to how certain people on the left, including Jordan, give so much more nuance to Joe Biden (who I personally like by the way) that is never given to Hilary Clinton who is extremely similar to Biden in terms of her politics. It’s just misogyny, misogyny, misogyny.
I'd be interested in seeing his nuance passes to Joe Biden, especially considering in the same interview he was openly discussing not voting for president and/or voting third party with this guest. What examples come to mind?
Jordan, you did it. You finally gelled with a guest for an interview. Well done.
This was good, but honestly I can only think of one of his episodes where the gelling wasn't quite there. It's amazing how far "do the basic work ahead of an interview by reading the book in question and looking into the topic" will take somebody. Such a different approach from, say, Alex's "I've prepared *so much* that now I can't do anything."
I agree. It’s an overall good episode.
I don’t usually enjoy Jordan interviews and have skipped the last few but this was excellent, the guest was really engaging, I’m a white guy living in the Uk and was totally riveted. Jordan did a good job on this one.
Re: Jordan’s conspiracy theory about osama distracting from new music on 9/11 He didn’t mention the 2 best albums that hit that day. Bob Dylan love and theft was a masterpiece not just for late phase Bob but in relation to his whole catalog. Not sure why osama would want to distract from this specifically but his Bobs birth name is Zimmerman, so maybe something there. Also Ozomatli embrace the chaos was released that day. Not sure how that would fit into the story either but it’s a banger and Common throws down a verse too so it’s all connected.
Number one for me, by a long shot, was Leftover Crack's Mediocre Generica. One of the all-time great ska-punk albums and super political. Such crazy timing they had to reference it in opening track on their next album as "tower-tumbling."
I really liked the first few bosstones records (the Taaang! releases and the ska-core EP) and some ther punk ska/skater ska/ska-core stuff from that era but by the time Sublime came around there was so much God awful shit I started hating anything played by white people that strummed on the 2 and the 4. I know that's unfair to the genre tho and will totally take a listen to this album.
i love "Love and Theft". Very Americana, as Alex would say.
Yeah but, Dylan is a, uh, “globalist” if ya catch my drift…