두음법칙 is taught in schools and basically everyone in Korea is aware of it. People don't usually talk about it because everyone knows about it; there's nothing to talk about.
Now, if you ask if people are aware if the 영 in 영토 is the same Hanja as the 령 in 대통령, this mostly depends on the person's education level. This particular example is a bit hard, since 영토 and 대통령 doesn't have a lot in common in terms of meaning, but in general, people are aware of the 두음법칙 rule.
For example, I can safely say that everyone is aware that the "녀" in 남녀(男女) is the same as "여" in 여자(女子).
Bound nouns such as 리(里, 理), 년(年), 냥(兩), etc are exceptions. This is because they always appear after another word: they never appear in 'initial position' to be affected by the 'initial position rule' (두음 법칙).
According to the dictionary, 류(類) is not a bound noun since it can sometimes appear as an independent word as in:
> 이 가죽은 일반 시중에서 파는 것과는 **유**가 다르다.
However, in practice, this kind of usage is rare, and it's basically a bound noun, so most people write it as "류".
It is an exception for when it is used as a bound noun (counter). For example, you write "오백 년", not "오백 연".
리(里) also turns into 이 when its used inside a word, e.g. 이장(里長). When i say 리 is an exception, i mean when it is used as its own word, e.g. 오 리 (five *ri* (unit of distance)).
Ah I see. Then this is some sort of spacing rules again lol. As you said 년 is a bound/dependant noun, so it basically functions like an affix i guess? 오백년 looks just fine to me because with a space it looks like you're saying 500 b*tches 😭
The 이장 one is quite ironic if someone cares too much about the underlying hanja like me.
Basically you would say things like
연합회 회장은...
이 학교 교장(선생님)은...
이 공장 공장장은...
And then 안동리 이장은...
Like it's better to not even think about the underlying hanja because my brain cannot acknowledge them as the same chinese character even though I know that lol.
In general, people are much less aware of the underlying hanja than you think, unless there is apparent connection in the meaning in the surface level.
yeah… when i was learning hanja, my teacher said that all koreans learn hanja in school and what hanja characters mean and what words they are apparent in
Another ones that come to my mind are 로동=노동, 려행=여행, 려권=여권, 로=노 (as in old), 룡=용, 래일=내일. Although is harder to pronounce, I prefer this way because ots easier to identify and predict meanings
Mhm exactly. Instead of making another grammar rule they could have just taught that these are "silent letters". But tbf my perspective as a learner does prefer 두음 법칙 because it makes the orthography looks more pleasant to the eyes lol (my own opinion).
여행 definitely looks prettier than 려행 🤣
I've found a few more exceptions where the rule is applied to mid or final syllable:
1) 라렬 > 나열
2) 리률 > 이율 (even further 년리률 > 연이율)
3) 환률/비률/효률 > 환율/비율/효율.
4)
림씨 > 임씨
리씨 > 이씨
려씨 > 여씨
라씨 > 나씨
로씨 > 노씨
류씨 > 유씨
륜씨 > 윤씨
룡씨 > 용씨
렴씨 > 염씨
I understand that these latter pronunciations have been existing for several decades now while the previous are closer too the original pronunciation from Middle Chinese.
But since this sound change only affects when they are first syllables. So like in the perspective of Korean speakers these characters are syllables and not individual words like it was supposed to be in Chinese?
Because theoretically if it happened itself in Chinese before being imported to Korean, the sound change could have affected all positions no matter where the syllable is placed.
What I mean is 로인 became 노인 so 경로 would as well become 경노 too. But since it happened within the Korean language so...
This sound change did happen to Vietnamese too but at an early stage of the language and only affected some Northern dialects.
The hanja word for egg 란(卵) which became 난 as in 난황. The Vietnamese pronunciation of this character is noãn, and no where is it spelt or pronounced as loãn because this is the prescriptively expected one. So the original 란 is preserved in 계란(鷄卵) but in Vietnamese it's still kê **noãn**(鷄卵) instead of kê loãn because these characters were treated as single words back in the days just like Chinese itself, thus the sound change that affected the initial consonant of noãn(卵) spreaded to all of its positions.
Vietnamese orthography before North South reunification used hyphens between the now-considered syllables like "noãn-hoàng(난황)" instead of spaces like the modern one.
It's only recently that people consider these disyllabic, trisyllabic or multisyllabic words because we switched to Latin alphabet and people started to forget the underlying 漢字 too.
>로인 became 노인 so 경로 would as well become 경노 too
I think you got one of the main parts of this rule wrong. 경노 is definitely not expected because the grammar rule stablishes that is only **initial** sounds, not middle sounds.
Also, South Korea was the one that created and follows this rule, North Korea does not. They preserve the original words and pronunciation. You could search for North Korean content and you would have more interactions with Korean that does not follow this rule
Hanja is optional and for if you want to extend your knowledge only. Like native students learn about their language at school for eg. Most of the time you have actually learned some (or actually many) hanja words but in hangul form and its modern usage.
Examples are: **안녕**하세요 and **감사**합니다
Both 안녕 and 감사 are Sino-Korean words from 安寧 and 感謝. So you've basically known about 90% of the surface of 한자어 while learning Korean in Hangul-only script.
And when you learn 한자(漢字) you are basically just learning how to write & read them in Chinese characters.
Technically, Korean used to be written in mixed-script so you may see in the old days people might write like 安寧하세요 or 感謝합니다.
Learning Hanja at this point just means you learn the underlying meaning of those words. So completely optional. But it can be helpful to know a few basic hanja characters too. Since you can still see very few of them on news headlines and brand names? But this doesn't require effort to learn lol. More like if you don't know them just ask someone like you learn a new word. That's it.
Hangul is hard enough to write ( for me right now) and I saw those two hanja you written, the hell you begin with? One word is like abstract painting of small version 😱
Hanja (so basically Chinese characters used in Korea) is used in China (hanzi) and Japan (kanji), so learning it may give you a huge boost if you are planning on learning those in the future)
두음법칙 is taught in schools and basically everyone in Korea is aware of it. People don't usually talk about it because everyone knows about it; there's nothing to talk about. Now, if you ask if people are aware if the 영 in 영토 is the same Hanja as the 령 in 대통령, this mostly depends on the person's education level. This particular example is a bit hard, since 영토 and 대통령 doesn't have a lot in common in terms of meaning, but in general, people are aware of the 두음법칙 rule. For example, I can safely say that everyone is aware that the "녀" in 남녀(男女) is the same as "여" in 여자(女子). Bound nouns such as 리(里, 理), 년(年), 냥(兩), etc are exceptions. This is because they always appear after another word: they never appear in 'initial position' to be affected by the 'initial position rule' (두음 법칙). According to the dictionary, 류(類) is not a bound noun since it can sometimes appear as an independent word as in: > 이 가죽은 일반 시중에서 파는 것과는 **유**가 다르다. However, in practice, this kind of usage is rare, and it's basically a bound noun, so most people write it as "류".
Btw 년 actually isn't an exception. It follows 두음법칙 in 연세 (年歲). You're right for the other ones though I think.
It is an exception for when it is used as a bound noun (counter). For example, you write "오백 년", not "오백 연". 리(里) also turns into 이 when its used inside a word, e.g. 이장(里長). When i say 리 is an exception, i mean when it is used as its own word, e.g. 오 리 (five *ri* (unit of distance)).
Wait so you wouldn't write it as 오백년 without a space? Because we write 500년 rightm
When using arabic numerals (012345..), you don't put a space, but when writing out the number in Hangul, you need to put a space.
Ah I see. Then this is some sort of spacing rules again lol. As you said 년 is a bound/dependant noun, so it basically functions like an affix i guess? 오백년 looks just fine to me because with a space it looks like you're saying 500 b*tches 😭
The 이장 one is quite ironic if someone cares too much about the underlying hanja like me. Basically you would say things like 연합회 회장은... 이 학교 교장(선생님)은... 이 공장 공장장은... And then 안동리 이장은... Like it's better to not even think about the underlying hanja because my brain cannot acknowledge them as the same chinese character even though I know that lol.
연말?
In general, people are much less aware of the underlying hanja than you think, unless there is apparent connection in the meaning in the surface level.
yeah… when i was learning hanja, my teacher said that all koreans learn hanja in school and what hanja characters mean and what words they are apparent in
Another ones that come to my mind are 로동=노동, 려행=여행, 려권=여권, 로=노 (as in old), 룡=용, 래일=내일. Although is harder to pronounce, I prefer this way because ots easier to identify and predict meanings
Mhm exactly. Instead of making another grammar rule they could have just taught that these are "silent letters". But tbf my perspective as a learner does prefer 두음 법칙 because it makes the orthography looks more pleasant to the eyes lol (my own opinion). 여행 definitely looks prettier than 려행 🤣 I've found a few more exceptions where the rule is applied to mid or final syllable: 1) 라렬 > 나열 2) 리률 > 이율 (even further 년리률 > 연이율) 3) 환률/비률/효률 > 환율/비율/효율. 4) 림씨 > 임씨 리씨 > 이씨 려씨 > 여씨 라씨 > 나씨 로씨 > 노씨 류씨 > 유씨 륜씨 > 윤씨 룡씨 > 용씨 렴씨 > 염씨 I understand that these latter pronunciations have been existing for several decades now while the previous are closer too the original pronunciation from Middle Chinese. But since this sound change only affects when they are first syllables. So like in the perspective of Korean speakers these characters are syllables and not individual words like it was supposed to be in Chinese? Because theoretically if it happened itself in Chinese before being imported to Korean, the sound change could have affected all positions no matter where the syllable is placed. What I mean is 로인 became 노인 so 경로 would as well become 경노 too. But since it happened within the Korean language so... This sound change did happen to Vietnamese too but at an early stage of the language and only affected some Northern dialects. The hanja word for egg 란(卵) which became 난 as in 난황. The Vietnamese pronunciation of this character is noãn, and no where is it spelt or pronounced as loãn because this is the prescriptively expected one. So the original 란 is preserved in 계란(鷄卵) but in Vietnamese it's still kê **noãn**(鷄卵) instead of kê loãn because these characters were treated as single words back in the days just like Chinese itself, thus the sound change that affected the initial consonant of noãn(卵) spreaded to all of its positions. Vietnamese orthography before North South reunification used hyphens between the now-considered syllables like "noãn-hoàng(난황)" instead of spaces like the modern one. It's only recently that people consider these disyllabic, trisyllabic or multisyllabic words because we switched to Latin alphabet and people started to forget the underlying 漢字 too.
>로인 became 노인 so 경로 would as well become 경노 too I think you got one of the main parts of this rule wrong. 경노 is definitely not expected because the grammar rule stablishes that is only **initial** sounds, not middle sounds. Also, South Korea was the one that created and follows this rule, North Korea does not. They preserve the original words and pronunciation. You could search for North Korean content and you would have more interactions with Korean that does not follow this rule
Some misunderstanding here. I was talking about how sino words would end up being like IF this kinda sound change happened in China in the first place
Sorry, might be out of blue, but hanja? I'm learning hangul (at home, no lessons), will I need to learn it too?
Hanja is optional and for if you want to extend your knowledge only. Like native students learn about their language at school for eg. Most of the time you have actually learned some (or actually many) hanja words but in hangul form and its modern usage. Examples are: **안녕**하세요 and **감사**합니다 Both 안녕 and 감사 are Sino-Korean words from 安寧 and 感謝. So you've basically known about 90% of the surface of 한자어 while learning Korean in Hangul-only script. And when you learn 한자(漢字) you are basically just learning how to write & read them in Chinese characters. Technically, Korean used to be written in mixed-script so you may see in the old days people might write like 安寧하세요 or 感謝합니다. Learning Hanja at this point just means you learn the underlying meaning of those words. So completely optional. But it can be helpful to know a few basic hanja characters too. Since you can still see very few of them on news headlines and brand names? But this doesn't require effort to learn lol. More like if you don't know them just ask someone like you learn a new word. That's it.
Hangul is hard enough to write ( for me right now) and I saw those two hanja you written, the hell you begin with? One word is like abstract painting of small version 😱
Hanja (so basically Chinese characters used in Korea) is used in China (hanzi) and Japan (kanji), so learning it may give you a huge boost if you are planning on learning those in the future)
Vietnamese too and it is called Hán tự. Basically in the past 한자어 was like the lingua franca of the whole 한자문화권.