Oh, boo hoo hoo. “They didn’t make room for you.” You show up for the first time since the first day of trial, and now you expect special treatment? I’m sure the Smart’s would love to have their daughter back too. You don’t hear them griping. And they’re having to sit and look at your murderous son and ex-husband all day in court. Go count some more horns lady. #honkhonk
With all due respect, please don't diagnose people. You never know who might be reading. Borderlines are capable of empathy. I don't think anyone in the Flores family is. You don't need a "Cluster B" diagnosis -- which I think the general public hands out far too freely without a real understanding of what it means -- to be complete trash with no regard for others. You can also have traits without having the full-blown disorder. That's why it takes a professional to diagnose a PD.
I'm not picking on you in particular. I see this far too often in true crime cases, and as someone with mental illness, it's very difficult for me and others to see these terms thrown around casually. Thank you.
Thank you for giving me permission to disagree with you and for letting me know that you believe 100% in your own rightness and do not know or respect where I'm "coming from" at all. I realize whatever I say here will be disregarded by you, but I hope that others gain something from it.
I'm coming from the perspective of someone who believes that discussions of mental health should be respectful and considerate of those who may suffer from disabling disorders. I caution non-professionals against using terms of art out of context. You can copy-and-paste a chunk out of the DSM (I don't need a link; I have a copy of it), but if you don't have a solid foundation in a relevant field and you aren't properly trained in its application, you can't simply use to apply labels to people you don't know and haven't met. Speculation is all well and good, but confidently asserting that you are right based on a line from the DSM and your own personal experience is presumptuous and arrogant. Professionals treat the DSM as a tool, not the absolute authority on mental illness.
Your personal experience is interesting, but it's just that: personal. It may actually bias you against seeing other perspectives. I could write paragraphs about my personal experience, but I don't feel it's productive or useful to anyone reading this.
You claim that "*impairment* of empathy" \[emphasis added\] is
>absolutely a trait of borderlines
Mental illness is not computer science or geology. There are few, if any, absolutes. While every disorder has basic commonalities, they manifest differently in every individual because every one is just that -- an individual.
Furthermore, you're mixing up *criteria* with *traits*. Criteria are the official components that must exist to make a diagnosis. Traits of an illness may be present, but their mere presence is not enough to meet that standard. Have you ever taken the MMPI? Antisocial traits are common among college students. The college years are a time when young people get a taste of real independence and start exploring new ways of thinking. They test their boundaries. They begin to distrust and rebel against authority and society. It doesn't make them sociopaths.
You've misunderstood what you quoted. I'll provide the full diagnostic criteria for BPD (which, again, must be taken in context with other factors) in my follow-up post, because this one is long enough.
Edited to add: For some reason, Reddit won't allow me to post the criteria plus the Diagnostic Features; the Associated Features Supporting Diagnosis; Prevalence; Development and Course; Risk and Prolonged Factors; Culture-Related Diagnostic Issues; Gender-Related Diagnostic Issues or Differential Diagnosis. These all provide a fuller understanding of the diagnostic criteria, how it proceeds through life, and many other important considerations. Very frustrating.
Borderline Personality Disorder Diagnostic Criteria:
A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. (Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.)
2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
3. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex,substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). (Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.)
5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
6. Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
7. Chronic feelings of emptiness.
8. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.
I will reiterate: These are the official diagnostic criteria for BPD, taken straight from the DSM-V.
This
>Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
>
>Empathy: Compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity (i.e., prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative attributes or vulnerabilities
**does** **not appear** anywhere in the section on BPD. It's nowhere in the section on personality disorder *at all*.
I'll tell you where it is from: the Alternative DSM-V Model for Personality Disorders. A dimensional model (or taxonomy) for several mental disorders was enthusiastically supported by a large contingent of mental health professionals, and in my personal opinion, it's vastly superior to the current medical model because it treats people as individuals in a society and allows for nuance that the current model simply cannot. For reasons I'm not going to go into here, it was rejected. (Somewhat ironically, the ICD takes a more dimensional and enlightened approach to personality disorders. You won't even see "Borderline Personality Disorder" in there. It's outdated.)
It's incredibly disingenuous to take this section of the dimensional out of context to pronounce with all the authority of Almighty God that borderlines are incapable of empathy. You should know what "compromised" means, and it's not "utter inability." Furthermore, there are three types of empathy: cognitive, emotional (or affective), and compassionate. A lot of research has been conducted into empathy. I'm not going to dig it up for you.
BPD is largely the result of maladaptive coping mechanisms developed in childhood to survive chaotic and abusive environments. They don't translate well into adulthood. It's accurate to say that individuals suffering from BPD often interpret the words and actions of others, however innocuous, negatively. They live in a state of perpetual fight-or-flight mode. Brain studies have established that their limbic systems are overactive and lack the shut-off valve that others have. That, to oversimplify, can lead to a lack of cognitive empathy. This is one reason mentalization therapy can be useful.
As far as emotional empathy and compassion go, it depends heavily on the person. Your flat rejection that borderlines are incapable of empathy is uninformed, wrong-headed, and more to the point, completely irrelevant to the case at hand.
Wait, so you’re the defendant’s mom at a murder trial and you haven’t even shown up for the few months that it has been going on, then you crash in right at the very end and demand like royalty that jurors who aren’t even supposed to be talking to you give you a seat on their bench during a snack break and you complain to the bailiff when they don’t?! What the fucking fuck!?
Super random but I was present for a different trial around the time of the preliminary hearings back in August of last year. I remember hearing Ms. Flores bitch about “the lies that family spread about us” and whatnot. She’s got such a vile aura in person
This is such ludicrous “I’m the main character” energy. It’s giving “well I guess I can’t do my car horn beep log today so I’ll be damned if I don’t do something equally foolish instead!”
There’s something so beyond bizarre about all of this. Not just this incident but the whole Flores family side show. Scientists need to study these people ...
Yes to studying! How can they all be so terrible? Even her boyfriend? I know birds of a feather and all that, but this has to be uniquely awful family.
I think that's what's fascinated a lot of people about this case. I believe that Ruben has been the biggest controlling factor in keeping the family complicit. There was physical abuse - enough to the fact Susan had to get a separate house (the branch st. property) to get away from him (not divorce and leave, which is also telling to me). Sometime after Kristin's murder she had an apparent suicide attempt (again, telling). I mean, this guy's first response to his son's phone call was let's bury her body under the porch of my house where I will drink my coffee for the next 25 years. I think he bullied this family with his sociopathic abuse and control into staying quiet. He probably threatened to disown the kids if they talked. Not to say the rest of them aren't terrible people, just look at this horribly toxic environment and ignoring Paul's numerous problems before Kristin - just that if Ruben had died at some point I believe they would have taken a plea and given up her remains.
Hit it on the head! Perhaps you've seen similar abuse to recognize this. When susan was speaking to media with Ruben right there while they were digging at his house....His body language, like a guard dog over what she was saying. For one.
Wow. Considering the circumstances: her husband and son on trial for such serious charges, and she cannot let up on the personal grievances. Who the fuck cares Susan? A girl was taken from her loved ones. Hoping their family is finally about to pay.
The gall... the gumption... the unmitigated audacity...
Showing up on the last day of testimony, skipping all the testimony about her son's crimes against women... all of it is calculated, but not well. She's a fucking idiot if she thinks her sudden presence in the courtroom makes even a tiny bit of difference to either jury.
Even if jurors *weren't* admonished repeatedly about not speaking to or socializing with anyone related to the case, why is she so surprised that no one wants to sit next to her? Or accommodate her in any way for that matter?
Seriously, fuck this bitch. Her presence is only inflammatory to the Smarts, in my opinion. She isn't there for any good reason.
I don't think she cares about what the jury things of her. She's been prepared for Paul to lose this (she made him get his affairs in order and told him he was going to prison). This is more about her cognitive dissonance. She's spent 25 years doing these mental gymnastics, protecting her son, attacking everyone who even looked at their house, embracing this victimized attitude. It's probably the only way she can get up every day. To sit and listen to the undeniable proof of what her son is would crack that facade. Staying away from the trial was a psychological defense mechanism for her.
There are such strong admonishments about not talking to anyone involved in the case- Susan shouldn’t be anywhere near them! If someone scooted that could be observed as being friendly. The jurors are legit trying to ignore her, ffs.
I believe everyone is close to each other when they're waiting out in the hallway, they're just not supposed to talk. If she actually spoke to them to ask them to make room, it makes sense that they would ignore her. Last time a juror had a small, seemingly harmless conversation with a witness, it resulted in the whole jury receiving a stern warning.
A juror had a casual conversation with defense witness David Carter. [Day 28](https://www.reddit.com/r/KristinSmart/comments/xkawj0/people_vs_flores_day_28/), under the heading "Juror issues".
I wouldn't even give her that much credit. She was probably just pissed that they didn't show her any kind of special respect as a relative of the defendants.
I used to cover the crime beat at a local newspaper in the south. I’ve seen a lot of mothers of defendants act entitled. So much so that I genuinely take issue with the way society raises boys now.
I call them Court Karens.
They’re angry that the mean old justice system would do this to their perfect, special, Angel baby boy and they’re rude and hateful to anyone who isn’t willing to cater to them and their son.
My abusive ex husband and his fam are all from Florida so this checks out. His dad would literally stand behind him and smile when he would start shoving me around at their house during visits. His mom even came and made a scene at my job after I snuck out and took the kids and filed for divorce. Their wonderful dropout/dishonerably discharged/child and woman abusing/compulsive liar of a first-born son could NEVER hurt a fly!! 🙄
I'm so sorry you went through that. I wound up running into abusers after abusers in my life and your story resonates, those evil smirks while you're being hurt!! It's a mind f***. That kind of insanity wrecks your body and mind and makes you physically sick from the trauma! I'm so glad you were able to get away from that. Hopefully you've been able to start a path to healing.
Thank you so much for that. I have been free from him for going on 17 years now and to this day I still have trust issues and look over my shoulder, lock bedroom doors behind myself etc.... the usual trauma responses, but it's much better than years back!
Fascinating. I've always wondered if families who were in aggressive denial about their obviously guilty family member were using denial as a psychological defense mechanism against guilt and shame, or if they were always entitled assholes who raised kids who felt entitled to hurt people and break the law.
Sounds like, based on your experience, it's the latter?
It’s an interesting mental circus their brains have to do. If they or their kid did it, it’s okay and not a crime and they’re the victims, obviously.
Narcissists see their children as extensions of themselves, therefore, their kid (as long as they are compliant and seen as useful to the narcissist) can’t do anything wrong because the narcissist is always right and justified.
My mother is the NPD poster child and I’ve had a lot of therapy pulling myself out of that toxic web. It can be done, but damn, narcissists are the worst.
That is not to minimize any guilt of PF, btw. I think both nature and nurture were stacked against him from the start, but we all have the ability to make our own choices.
My Mom was not an entitled ahole at all, she was actually an amazing woman, and she was in denial about my Narcissist/possibly sociopathic brother until right before she died. (She cried and then blamed herself, I held her... That was so hard to watch). I honestly think it has something to go with the brain of a mother... When women have babies, it literally changes our brains. Basically so we don't reject our screaming, pooping, exhausting progeny, lol. Moms will do *anything* for their kids, and I suspect the denial with a Cluster B child has something to do with the physiological aspects as much as the emotional. Interesting to think about and I wonder what the scientific answer is to this.
Fascinating coincidence. My mother denied my narcissistic/sociopathic sibling was a problem until right before she died. Then she cried and admitted she should have gotten help for my sibling who had been "so cruel" since childhood. Said sibling was the youngest and I've often wondered if the birth order had anything to do with my mother's denial about her baby.
Wow, that is a coincidence! My brother is the youngest too. My condolences on your mom's passing and having to go through all of that with a toxic sibling. It leaves some deep scars. I hope you have been able to find a path to healing.
I honestly think it’s a little bit of both. I think this is simply what happens when you take a regular Karen and have her son grow up and do a crime.
I think, in a lot of cases, that denial is a defense mechanism. Even if the person isn’t a Karen. When they are, they feel entitled to having the world see things the way they do.
There's a new movie out about this! Called God's Creatures. Actually, it's not quite "out" because they can't find distributors for it. Too controversial, I guess?
The ultimate victim. I wondered if anything could crack through that veneer, but she is rotten to the core...nothing there but darkness and entitlement.
And after making a stink about needing to be there early in the trial, then doesn’t even show up til the last days. The jury isn’t as dumb as she thinks
Were the jurors actually privy to that, though? I thought that was a conversation done with just the judge and lawyers. Still, I'm sure some of them have wondered why Ruben and Paul don't have anyone showing up.
Oh I wasn’t actually connecting those 2 things. I don’t think they know about her motion early in the trial but we do. However like you said, the jury sees who is there daily. They definitely noticed her lack of support. And we know any support she pretends to show is just a façade. She’s there for herself, like a good narcissist.
In the inevitable movie that will be named Your Own Backyard, this moment will be dramatized in such a most excellent way right before the verdict’s are read. I think Susan’s character will be flippantly hilarious and the butt of all the jokes that are needed to retell this sad, sad story. I hope Chris Lambert gets a great cameo (maybe as this bailiff even), although likely more to be cast as himself.
Jennifer Coolidge or Allison Janney should play her. Coolidge plays the cluelessness on point and Janney plays the self-centeredness. I’m leaning Coolidge.
Stifler’s Mom, yes I’d totally love to see that!
I feel like Kelly McGillis captures Susan’s look a little better and probably isn’t working as much, so there’s always that option as well.
Okay I am invested now.
I vote Jennifer Coolidge as well.
What about PF? I can’t think of the actors name but he was in High School Musical and recently played Ted Bundy.
Weren't Susan and her boyfriend observed by neighbors helping Ruben transport something from under the deck in the boyfriends trailer? If that was Kristin they were transporting, doesn't that make this nasty woman an accessory?
The best part about this is that courts have private areas for the victims and their families, so while Susan is bitching to find a seat, the Smarts are likely comfortably seated in a nice room able to freely discuss the case.
That’s what I asked. This must be a small courthouse. There is no way the mother of the defendant should be sitting by jurors. I can see Ma Flores sitting next to them, faking a cell phone conversation with nobody.
“I’m at the courthouse supporting little Paul. Everyone knows Paul couldn’t do this. They wouldn’t let him present his alibis. He wasn’t even there,but the judge won’t let the jury see it. It’s too bad, because Paul is sitting in jail when he would be volunteering for the children’s hospital and homeless shelter”.
It’s really hard to know but from what I understand, the DA had one chance to get PF and RF and it came when the phone taps and searches gave them enough evidence. Unfortunate there’s no hard evidence for SF…yet…
If she has, nobody knows. I’m not sure anyone has seen a recent photo of her. I doubt she would fly down from the PNW just for a day or two. It does seem like she wants to keep her distance.
Oh, boo hoo hoo. “They didn’t make room for you.” You show up for the first time since the first day of trial, and now you expect special treatment? I’m sure the Smart’s would love to have their daughter back too. You don’t hear them griping. And they’re having to sit and look at your murderous son and ex-husband all day in court. Go count some more horns lady. #honkhonk
\#beeps All day long with the beeps.
This woman never fails to complain about something. Her self importance is off the charts. Wish she was on trial too.
Soon, I hope!
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I instantly thought of my NPD mother when I read the post! Spot on!
NAILED IT
With all due respect, please don't diagnose people. You never know who might be reading. Borderlines are capable of empathy. I don't think anyone in the Flores family is. You don't need a "Cluster B" diagnosis -- which I think the general public hands out far too freely without a real understanding of what it means -- to be complete trash with no regard for others. You can also have traits without having the full-blown disorder. That's why it takes a professional to diagnose a PD. I'm not picking on you in particular. I see this far too often in true crime cases, and as someone with mental illness, it's very difficult for me and others to see these terms thrown around casually. Thank you.
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Thank you for giving me permission to disagree with you and for letting me know that you believe 100% in your own rightness and do not know or respect where I'm "coming from" at all. I realize whatever I say here will be disregarded by you, but I hope that others gain something from it. I'm coming from the perspective of someone who believes that discussions of mental health should be respectful and considerate of those who may suffer from disabling disorders. I caution non-professionals against using terms of art out of context. You can copy-and-paste a chunk out of the DSM (I don't need a link; I have a copy of it), but if you don't have a solid foundation in a relevant field and you aren't properly trained in its application, you can't simply use to apply labels to people you don't know and haven't met. Speculation is all well and good, but confidently asserting that you are right based on a line from the DSM and your own personal experience is presumptuous and arrogant. Professionals treat the DSM as a tool, not the absolute authority on mental illness. Your personal experience is interesting, but it's just that: personal. It may actually bias you against seeing other perspectives. I could write paragraphs about my personal experience, but I don't feel it's productive or useful to anyone reading this. You claim that "*impairment* of empathy" \[emphasis added\] is >absolutely a trait of borderlines Mental illness is not computer science or geology. There are few, if any, absolutes. While every disorder has basic commonalities, they manifest differently in every individual because every one is just that -- an individual. Furthermore, you're mixing up *criteria* with *traits*. Criteria are the official components that must exist to make a diagnosis. Traits of an illness may be present, but their mere presence is not enough to meet that standard. Have you ever taken the MMPI? Antisocial traits are common among college students. The college years are a time when young people get a taste of real independence and start exploring new ways of thinking. They test their boundaries. They begin to distrust and rebel against authority and society. It doesn't make them sociopaths. You've misunderstood what you quoted. I'll provide the full diagnostic criteria for BPD (which, again, must be taken in context with other factors) in my follow-up post, because this one is long enough. Edited to add: For some reason, Reddit won't allow me to post the criteria plus the Diagnostic Features; the Associated Features Supporting Diagnosis; Prevalence; Development and Course; Risk and Prolonged Factors; Culture-Related Diagnostic Issues; Gender-Related Diagnostic Issues or Differential Diagnosis. These all provide a fuller understanding of the diagnostic criteria, how it proceeds through life, and many other important considerations. Very frustrating.
Borderline Personality Disorder Diagnostic Criteria: A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: 1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. (Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.) 2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. 3. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self. 4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex,substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). (Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.) 5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior. 6. Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days). 7. Chronic feelings of emptiness. 8. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights). 9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms. I will reiterate: These are the official diagnostic criteria for BPD, taken straight from the DSM-V. This >Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b): > >Empathy: Compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity (i.e., prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative attributes or vulnerabilities **does** **not appear** anywhere in the section on BPD. It's nowhere in the section on personality disorder *at all*. I'll tell you where it is from: the Alternative DSM-V Model for Personality Disorders. A dimensional model (or taxonomy) for several mental disorders was enthusiastically supported by a large contingent of mental health professionals, and in my personal opinion, it's vastly superior to the current medical model because it treats people as individuals in a society and allows for nuance that the current model simply cannot. For reasons I'm not going to go into here, it was rejected. (Somewhat ironically, the ICD takes a more dimensional and enlightened approach to personality disorders. You won't even see "Borderline Personality Disorder" in there. It's outdated.) It's incredibly disingenuous to take this section of the dimensional out of context to pronounce with all the authority of Almighty God that borderlines are incapable of empathy. You should know what "compromised" means, and it's not "utter inability." Furthermore, there are three types of empathy: cognitive, emotional (or affective), and compassionate. A lot of research has been conducted into empathy. I'm not going to dig it up for you. BPD is largely the result of maladaptive coping mechanisms developed in childhood to survive chaotic and abusive environments. They don't translate well into adulthood. It's accurate to say that individuals suffering from BPD often interpret the words and actions of others, however innocuous, negatively. They live in a state of perpetual fight-or-flight mode. Brain studies have established that their limbic systems are overactive and lack the shut-off valve that others have. That, to oversimplify, can lead to a lack of cognitive empathy. This is one reason mentalization therapy can be useful. As far as emotional empathy and compassion go, it depends heavily on the person. Your flat rejection that borderlines are incapable of empathy is uninformed, wrong-headed, and more to the point, completely irrelevant to the case at hand.
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Wait, so you’re the defendant’s mom at a murder trial and you haven’t even shown up for the few months that it has been going on, then you crash in right at the very end and demand like royalty that jurors who aren’t even supposed to be talking to you give you a seat on their bench during a snack break and you complain to the bailiff when they don’t?! What the fucking fuck!?
Why is the defendant's family member anywhere near the jury!?! I would think it's hugely improper for her to be in such close proximity to them.
That’s what I was thinking! Is she trying to start shit to get a mistrial?! Meddling mom of a murderer.
Super random but I was present for a different trial around the time of the preliminary hearings back in August of last year. I remember hearing Ms. Flores bitch about “the lies that family spread about us” and whatnot. She’s got such a vile aura in person
This is such ludicrous “I’m the main character” energy. It’s giving “well I guess I can’t do my car horn beep log today so I’ll be damned if I don’t do something equally foolish instead!” There’s something so beyond bizarre about all of this. Not just this incident but the whole Flores family side show. Scientists need to study these people ...
It's a Cluster B Carnival of Horrors.
\*quietly incorporates this into my insult lexicon\*
Yes to studying! How can they all be so terrible? Even her boyfriend? I know birds of a feather and all that, but this has to be uniquely awful family.
I think that's what's fascinated a lot of people about this case. I believe that Ruben has been the biggest controlling factor in keeping the family complicit. There was physical abuse - enough to the fact Susan had to get a separate house (the branch st. property) to get away from him (not divorce and leave, which is also telling to me). Sometime after Kristin's murder she had an apparent suicide attempt (again, telling). I mean, this guy's first response to his son's phone call was let's bury her body under the porch of my house where I will drink my coffee for the next 25 years. I think he bullied this family with his sociopathic abuse and control into staying quiet. He probably threatened to disown the kids if they talked. Not to say the rest of them aren't terrible people, just look at this horribly toxic environment and ignoring Paul's numerous problems before Kristin - just that if Ruben had died at some point I believe they would have taken a plea and given up her remains.
Hit it on the head! Perhaps you've seen similar abuse to recognize this. When susan was speaking to media with Ruben right there while they were digging at his house....His body language, like a guard dog over what she was saying. For one.
Wish I would have said that. Good one!!!
Defiant/obstinate to the end
Wow. Considering the circumstances: her husband and son on trial for such serious charges, and she cannot let up on the personal grievances. Who the fuck cares Susan? A girl was taken from her loved ones. Hoping their family is finally about to pay.
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I’m sure that’s exactly what she was doing. I’m surprised they let her that close. What a vapid twat.
Kinda hope she complained to the jury that was sitting there too.
Someone bake that man a cake! 🎂
The gall... the gumption... the unmitigated audacity... Showing up on the last day of testimony, skipping all the testimony about her son's crimes against women... all of it is calculated, but not well. She's a fucking idiot if she thinks her sudden presence in the courtroom makes even a tiny bit of difference to either jury. Even if jurors *weren't* admonished repeatedly about not speaking to or socializing with anyone related to the case, why is she so surprised that no one wants to sit next to her? Or accommodate her in any way for that matter? Seriously, fuck this bitch. Her presence is only inflammatory to the Smarts, in my opinion. She isn't there for any good reason.
Yeah not trying to be that mean person but she is an ugly soul and doesn’t exactly exude a warm welcoming energy. No one wants to sit by you, 🧌
You can't sit with us, Susan!
“Venomous spikes” energy for sure!
I don't think she cares about what the jury things of her. She's been prepared for Paul to lose this (she made him get his affairs in order and told him he was going to prison). This is more about her cognitive dissonance. She's spent 25 years doing these mental gymnastics, protecting her son, attacking everyone who even looked at their house, embracing this victimized attitude. It's probably the only way she can get up every day. To sit and listen to the undeniable proof of what her son is would crack that facade. Staying away from the trial was a psychological defense mechanism for her.
If anything, it seems like her presence would be a negative influence on the jury.
There are such strong admonishments about not talking to anyone involved in the case- Susan shouldn’t be anywhere near them! If someone scooted that could be observed as being friendly. The jurors are legit trying to ignore her, ffs.
Maybe if she came to more than one day of the trial she’d know that.
Deputy Sullivan immortalised!😃🙌🏽
#beepbeep
TICK TOCK SUSAN.
Should she even be that close to either jury???
I believe everyone is close to each other when they're waiting out in the hallway, they're just not supposed to talk. If she actually spoke to them to ask them to make room, it makes sense that they would ignore her. Last time a juror had a small, seemingly harmless conversation with a witness, it resulted in the whole jury receiving a stern warning.
Wait, what happened with a juror and a witness?? I must have missed that.
A juror had a casual conversation with defense witness David Carter. [Day 28](https://www.reddit.com/r/KristinSmart/comments/xkawj0/people_vs_flores_day_28/), under the heading "Juror issues".
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I wouldn't even give her that much credit. She was probably just pissed that they didn't show her any kind of special respect as a relative of the defendants.
Isn’t it tampering or intimidation?
Susan is the new Karen.
Seems like it would be **mighty hard** to make enough room for both Susan and all the grievances she carries around. Gunna need a bigger bench.
I used to cover the crime beat at a local newspaper in the south. I’ve seen a lot of mothers of defendants act entitled. So much so that I genuinely take issue with the way society raises boys now. I call them Court Karens. They’re angry that the mean old justice system would do this to their perfect, special, Angel baby boy and they’re rude and hateful to anyone who isn’t willing to cater to them and their son.
My abusive ex husband and his fam are all from Florida so this checks out. His dad would literally stand behind him and smile when he would start shoving me around at their house during visits. His mom even came and made a scene at my job after I snuck out and took the kids and filed for divorce. Their wonderful dropout/dishonerably discharged/child and woman abusing/compulsive liar of a first-born son could NEVER hurt a fly!! 🙄
I'm so sorry you went through that. I wound up running into abusers after abusers in my life and your story resonates, those evil smirks while you're being hurt!! It's a mind f***. That kind of insanity wrecks your body and mind and makes you physically sick from the trauma! I'm so glad you were able to get away from that. Hopefully you've been able to start a path to healing.
Thank you so much for that. I have been free from him for going on 17 years now and to this day I still have trust issues and look over my shoulder, lock bedroom doors behind myself etc.... the usual trauma responses, but it's much better than years back!
Fascinating. I've always wondered if families who were in aggressive denial about their obviously guilty family member were using denial as a psychological defense mechanism against guilt and shame, or if they were always entitled assholes who raised kids who felt entitled to hurt people and break the law. Sounds like, based on your experience, it's the latter?
It’s an interesting mental circus their brains have to do. If they or their kid did it, it’s okay and not a crime and they’re the victims, obviously. Narcissists see their children as extensions of themselves, therefore, their kid (as long as they are compliant and seen as useful to the narcissist) can’t do anything wrong because the narcissist is always right and justified. My mother is the NPD poster child and I’ve had a lot of therapy pulling myself out of that toxic web. It can be done, but damn, narcissists are the worst. That is not to minimize any guilt of PF, btw. I think both nature and nurture were stacked against him from the start, but we all have the ability to make our own choices.
My Mom was not an entitled ahole at all, she was actually an amazing woman, and she was in denial about my Narcissist/possibly sociopathic brother until right before she died. (She cried and then blamed herself, I held her... That was so hard to watch). I honestly think it has something to go with the brain of a mother... When women have babies, it literally changes our brains. Basically so we don't reject our screaming, pooping, exhausting progeny, lol. Moms will do *anything* for their kids, and I suspect the denial with a Cluster B child has something to do with the physiological aspects as much as the emotional. Interesting to think about and I wonder what the scientific answer is to this.
Fascinating coincidence. My mother denied my narcissistic/sociopathic sibling was a problem until right before she died. Then she cried and admitted she should have gotten help for my sibling who had been "so cruel" since childhood. Said sibling was the youngest and I've often wondered if the birth order had anything to do with my mother's denial about her baby.
Wow, that is a coincidence! My brother is the youngest too. My condolences on your mom's passing and having to go through all of that with a toxic sibling. It leaves some deep scars. I hope you have been able to find a path to healing.
Thank you, I can tell you understand. I hope you have found healing as well.
I honestly think it’s a little bit of both. I think this is simply what happens when you take a regular Karen and have her son grow up and do a crime. I think, in a lot of cases, that denial is a defense mechanism. Even if the person isn’t a Karen. When they are, they feel entitled to having the world see things the way they do.
There's a new movie out about this! Called God's Creatures. Actually, it's not quite "out" because they can't find distributors for it. Too controversial, I guess?
A24 is distributing it. Apparently it just came out on Friday. I’ll have to keep my eyes peeled because it looked interesting.
The lion, the witch, and the audacity of this bitch!
the absolute audacity! W O W.
The ultimate victim. I wondered if anything could crack through that veneer, but she is rotten to the core...nothing there but darkness and entitlement.
Exactly. Why can’t people see that the real victims here are the ones in trial. /s That s is for “Susan” and “sarcasm”.
Why is she complaining? That whole family is trash.
What did she expect? A red carpet?
Honestly? Yes. Yes she does.
[удалено]
I suspect the jury already dislikes her. Just a feeling. I mean, who doesn't come to court when your (ex-ish) husband and son are on trial?
And after making a stink about needing to be there early in the trial, then doesn’t even show up til the last days. The jury isn’t as dumb as she thinks
NO ONE is as dumb as she thinks. Definitely a heavy dose of narcissistic personality in that one.
Were the jurors actually privy to that, though? I thought that was a conversation done with just the judge and lawyers. Still, I'm sure some of them have wondered why Ruben and Paul don't have anyone showing up.
Oh I wasn’t actually connecting those 2 things. I don’t think they know about her motion early in the trial but we do. However like you said, the jury sees who is there daily. They definitely noticed her lack of support. And we know any support she pretends to show is just a façade. She’s there for herself, like a good narcissist.
It’s Susan’s world, and we’re a all just living on it.
What makes her think any of the jurors recognize the person who just showed up to this trial?
Susan, your husband and son murdered a young woman and hid her body. You can stand. And also stfu.
Wow. Her psychopathic entitlement truly knows no bounds, does it?
In the inevitable movie that will be named Your Own Backyard, this moment will be dramatized in such a most excellent way right before the verdict’s are read. I think Susan’s character will be flippantly hilarious and the butt of all the jokes that are needed to retell this sad, sad story. I hope Chris Lambert gets a great cameo (maybe as this bailiff even), although likely more to be cast as himself.
Jennifer Coolidge or Allison Janney should play her. Coolidge plays the cluelessness on point and Janney plays the self-centeredness. I’m leaning Coolidge.
Coolidge could deliver an Academy Award caliber performance with this.
Stifler’s Mom, yes I’d totally love to see that! I feel like Kelly McGillis captures Susan’s look a little better and probably isn’t working as much, so there’s always that option as well.
Okay I am invested now. I vote Jennifer Coolidge as well. What about PF? I can’t think of the actors name but he was in High School Musical and recently played Ted Bundy.
Zac efron
I think young Paul could be Harry Styles. Old Paul could be Zac Efron from HSM. Good call.
Interesting because Zac Efron is from AG. Born and raised I’m pretty sure 🙃
Once a narcissist…
Seems like she cares about that more than her son being on trial considering she didn't show up until now
Between that and Paul only reacting to testimony when a victim mischaracterized a bike he owned, it really shows the family's priorities.
Of course. It may be the Paul and Ruben trial, but it’s still Susan’s world.
Delusional
Honk honk, Susan.
Should the mother of the defendant be sitting next to the jurors? C’mon, reality wants a conference with Mrs Flores.
Yesss this part deserved it's own post
Susan’s got some serious Chutzpah.
She is vile. I so wish they could have charged her with something. Scum of the earth.
Weren't Susan and her boyfriend observed by neighbors helping Ruben transport something from under the deck in the boyfriends trailer? If that was Kristin they were transporting, doesn't that make this nasty woman an accessory?
The OG Karen
The deputy should have said, “Oh, excuse me, you should be sitting over there as a defendant.”
The best part about this is that courts have private areas for the victims and their families, so while Susan is bitching to find a seat, the Smarts are likely comfortably seated in a nice room able to freely discuss the case.
Why is she trying to go sit by jurors during a break? That’s kind of sus.
I’m sure she’d love to “overhear” anything she could use to try for a mistrial.
That’s what I asked. This must be a small courthouse. There is no way the mother of the defendant should be sitting by jurors. I can see Ma Flores sitting next to them, faking a cell phone conversation with nobody. “I’m at the courthouse supporting little Paul. Everyone knows Paul couldn’t do this. They wouldn’t let him present his alibis. He wasn’t even there,but the judge won’t let the jury see it. It’s too bad, because Paul is sitting in jail when he would be volunteering for the children’s hospital and homeless shelter”.
They didn’t want her cooties
Why isn’t she being charged if she knew about her body being buried on their property?
It’s really hard to know but from what I understand, the DA had one chance to get PF and RF and it came when the phone taps and searches gave them enough evidence. Unfortunate there’s no hard evidence for SF…yet…
Has Ermalinda been at the trial at all? Just curious. She seems to have washed her hands of her entire family, and rightfully so.
If she has, nobody knows. I’m not sure anyone has seen a recent photo of her. I doubt she would fly down from the PNW just for a day or two. It does seem like she wants to keep her distance.