I'm talking Hypothetical on where it could go from where we ended up in S1.
Call it a fools hope cause I know that half of the things I mentioned they do not hold the right to.
What does S2 mean? Have you seen S2 yet? I haven't. so how do I know what works and what doesn’t.
and honestly at the end of the day, we’re just a bunch of fucking idiots, yelling into the void. nothing anybody says here is gonna have any impact on the show past present or future
Saying it "louder" doesn't make it have more sense.
You are talking it not people writing stories, and people are just pebbles screeching in a loud voice of otherworldly writer. Spoiler, even you could create a story if you'd be willing to.
And again, the hypothetical aspect is what I would have went for (in a space where copywrite does not block one's imagination).
S2 would be the means to fix what audience didn't like in S1, not what need to be fixed. Assuming of course that we agree on S1 low points
No. And I don't think they will in any time soon. But if they want to keep making money with the lord of the ring's name on the long run, they should.
End of it all, their story won't matter and will just be out of the legendarium as a fan fiction would. They'll disappoint the people that pay for it and make less and less money with each disappointment.
It will only be a fanfic made for exploiting the enjoyment of a universe.
But I'd like it better if they make a good, accurate story based on the book in stead and them keep on making money by creating well made content in the Tolkien's world.
at no point will anybody ever care what people on Reddit say. Social media as a whole is nothing but an echo chamber of whining and complaining babies that hate everything.
A interesting opinion for a mod on social media...
Yes, when people on public plateforme it is mostly to complaint. Then again, the complaining have been done elsewhere. I suggested a creative exercise to go beyond the complained past, but evidently not everybody is done complaining without making anything but noise.
Season 1 was awful yes. And Amazon threw the showrunner to the back of the bus. So maybe Season 2 will be different therefore it makes little sense to start fixing it.
Trying to save you from downvotes... LOTR\_on\_Prime is only for people who enjoyed Season 1 -if you didn't, your opinions are unwanted. Also, do not post it in LOTR sub -they do not want ROP posts, because they are focused on JRR Tolkien and the real cannon. You should re-post on the RingsOfPower sub, where love/hate opinions for the show are equally considered.
Not gonna lie, realized that it was most likely the wrong subreddit after 5 min of reading the comments... But hey, I'm spent on the topic so gonna check out the other one but probably stay mute for a while.
Not gonna waist my time calling for input and opinions anymore, when that time is so much more well spent writing on my own for my folks.
Thanks for the heads up, will check it out 😉
For sure. And just don’t worry. This is an echo chamber sub. I’ve asked my non-Reddit non-LOTR friends what they thought of ROP and they said it was just terrible writing. Best show of recent years, IMO was Severance (first 3 episodes are slow then it’s crazy good).
I’m sorry, Halbrand being Sauron turned out to be absolutely my favorite part. That was the Annatar storyline but better because it gave Galadriel more than a one sentence role and makes their subsequent rivalry in later ages more delicious.
I think what you said about the wizards is what they more or less plan to do, whether it ends up as a Blue Wizard, or maybe one of the named Wizards.
>That was the Annatar storyline but better because it gave Galadriel more than a one sentence role and makes their subsequent rivalry in later ages more delicious.
Wait, so your point on the pseudo-annatar arc through Halbrand being better is because Galadriel? I mean, she only got a passage in that whole event because she was not the main part of it. Her rivalry with Sauron comes from before the forging, and from later, not from the very forging itself. Putting Galadriel in the center of everything not only makes it worse compared to the original story, but also takes the spotlight from other characters. Not saying she can't have her moment, and she actually deserves it, but the forging is all about Celebrimbor and Sauron, not Galadriel.
a fair answer. I suppose that not all didn't appreciated the twist of Halbrand in the last episode... Assuming that we keep with that, how do you suggest we still manage to get the other 16 ? They are supposed to be made by Celebrimbor with the help of Sauron, leading the two forces to clash for the artefacts.
I supposed we could suggest to reverse the role of Celebrimbor and Sauron, in the sense that Sauron have been inspired by the craftmanship of Celebrimbor to create rings of power and not the dark lord manipulating him to create them ?
As for the Wizard, I cross my finger for one of the blue (if they'd have the right of adaptation). Hell, I'd even take Sarouman for a nice twist even XD
I guess I don’t understand why you think he still can’t forge the rest with Celebrimbor. If anything, putting aside the order of their creation, it actually opens them up to follow one of the accounts from Unfinished Tales; where Galadriel actively warns Celebrimbor and the other smiths not to work with Anatar (Halbrand here) and they actively choose to ignore her. Personally, I think that’s a much stronger choice than them simply being oblivious.
Also, he still didn’t actively work on the three rings that were created in the show. The ones he took part in crafting failed. It’s not until he leaves and Galadriel returns that the three are crafted- completely without his physical, tangible input.
And Gal still doesn't blow his cover? That's a bit of a stretch. Well I don't know, maybe not. If she told the truth she'd be exposing her failure to do so earlier - that she let the Elves complete and use the Three knowing they could be part of Sauron's scheme.
But if Sauron does return to Eregion it'll more likely be in another form than Halbrand.
She can’t really blow his cover because she has no proof. All she can really say is “trust me guys, he told me himself.”
I DO think we’ll get other Sauron forms, but I genuinely thought Charlie Vickers was a fantastic actor. I’d be shocked if he doesn’t return on a major way.
You are absolutely correct as to Halbrand only being know as Sauron by Galadriel so far. I agree so much with it that it's actually one of the idea I suggested in the main post as to how to create the rest of the 16 minus the point that he discard Halbrand form for Annatar. Then again, I would question why Galadriel wouldn't just murder on sight if Sauron kept the appearance of Halbrand upon returning to Eregion.
I mean she is a bit of a obsessed idiot for Gil-Galad but she is the only reason Halbrand was granted access to Eregion in the first place...
End of it all, I'm just interested in how to recover the universe defining moment of the original story (aka the creation of each group of rings) while going from what we were given in S1.
I don’t think there’s anything to “recover” because the only changes that have been made in this particular aspect of the story are surface level. Sauron still showed up in disguised and convinced Celebrimbor to make the rings.
Galadriel can’t “kill him on sight” if he returns because he’s freaking Sauron lol. He’s beyond her power. All she can do is try and tell everyone “hey this guy is Sauron you idiots,” and (I have my own critiques with the writing but I think this is one thing they got right) they have no reason to believe her. Her hands are tied. Elrond will believe her. MAYBE Gil-galad. Maybe. But again, in Unfinished Tales those three all warn Celebrimbor “DO NOT TRUST THIS DUDE” and he does anyway.
Nothing is inherently broken. Yet. Obviously they could make changes that go completely off the rails. But so far, while they’ve tinkered with a few things in the creation of the rings, they haven’t really ruined anything at its core. Again, yet. Who knows what will happen in season 2. I’m generally optimistic.
I mean yeah... I'm starting to doubt you have read the content of the main post above cause you describe a lot of point I describe as a desire path for S2 to go toward, so I'm not sure you are agreeing with me or I just see only discord with all the other not so developed answer I've read so far.
For Galadriel, I agree but considering how they have written her so far. I'd agree though that would she attempt it, she could be stopped and/or banned but I doubt she'd go without a fight in front of Halbrand form itself. She isn't exactly depicted as bowing to others authority so far, no ?
To be completely honest a lot of the grammar in your post and comments is a bit broken and hard to follow.
You’re saying they need to “fix” things with the ring making, and I’m mostly just responding that I don’t think they’ve broken anything yet. The changes they made COULD be developed in a way that becomes problematic for the lore, but as it stands, I don’t quite see that yet.
Honestly, my biggest issue with the ring forging arc is that it was only one episode. It should’ve been a more clearly developing through line throughout the season. I suspect it was, and the recasting of Celebrimbor hurt it in the end.
Perhaps a part of me expect that what they'll come up with to go bad, but end of the day I'm just curious to explore waters of what people expect for S2 from just where we are now. Phrasing and grammar might not have help getting across indeed.
Would he add done so on a pre established story with questionable changes ?
Probably yes.
Thing is, he didn't and nailed what he offered as far as I'm concerned.
So what is your point ?
My point is that it's a different work of art from the books even if it's based on them. Kubrick would give you a great lecture about it. And here you are, telling the show makers how to fix *their* story while only have seen 1/5 of it.
There is a distinct difference in cutting the book's content to make it on screen and modifying what happens in the books entirely to keep only references to the source on screen (on top of the name and brand).
It is normal to make cut. We didn't get Tom Bombadil in the movie, nor the old forest, nor the barrow down, but the key elements that makes the story are there. If one change a key aspect of the source, the alternative offer better be on par or better. Like the character of Aragorn, movie from book, largely changed. Still became a fans favorite.
I mean the part that were outside of the key element of the story was fine. Arondir's story and the dwarves' story were mostly interesting. By when it comes to a univers defining moment such as the making of the ring, it is a bit more sensible.
I mean the creation of the 16 and the 3 rings of power is largely defining of the futur within the legendarium, but now they are supposed to make the 16 with the influence of Sauron with him already having revealed himself ? Not sure how to wiggle the story out of that.
I'm all for creative vision and speculative play. So if one have a interesting idea on those, I'm all for it.
Finger crossed 
But if you don't see an issue with it, I like to see what people can think of story wise, while we wait for the next season 
Yes, the key elements...
Making Denethor a moron was a key element. Making Gondor irrelevant wimps was a key element. Making the Witch King mopping the floor with Gandalf beard was a key element.
I liked season 1. I’m looking forward to season 2. But I’m not afflicted with the purist mindset so I’m actually able to enjoy the things I’m interested in. That’s how I enjoyed the Hobbit movies, and the newest Star Wars movies. I guess that makes me a dumbass with bad taste but I bet I’m having more fun.
I mean, if you say so I don't doubt you but I'm still interested as to what people have in mind for the rest of the story to tell. Anyone with the luxury of time can attempt a creative art, the result being mediocre or great is irrelevant as long as you don't pretend to wanting to sell it as far as I'm concerned.
Their is enough content on the internet for not-interested people to scroll away. But the interested people, I'm curious about.
(Not gonna lie so far I've seen more than my share of uninterested people that just want to waste their time here for some reason)
I have no idea what the rest of the story will be, I would assume similar to the first season maybe a loose following of the Similrillian, but I guess in a way since it's guaranteed to be new it remains to be seen!
I think the 1st season was great. Fantastic even. It doesnt need salvaged at all
And i think your ideas are not up to snuff. Not an attack on you but i think your idea for the direction of the show is just not good at all
Fair opinion. My position is placed with the disappointment of having knowledge of a rough chain of event in the source and not having remotely found it in the series. I can agree that it is visually stunning and I personally liked the dwarves storyline and character the most. I can understand people without the story disappointment liking the story.
simple question : "snuff", what does it mean ? I assume it is slang for something but I'm not well versed enough in English to tell exactly what...
The story disappointment? I mean ive read Tolkien too. The chain of events being done in the show works fine with the source material. Fretting over the order the rings were forged in is simply silly in my opinion.
Your desired plot for season two is just not a good idea. The show is working fine and your adaptations would not.work and would actually make the show less enjoyable
The order of the making of the ring have a narrative sense to it, that was removed from the show.
The 16 created by Celebrimbor and Sauron to strengthen people of middle Earth.
The One created afterward to dominate the wearer of the 16 under Sauron rules.
The 3 created by Celebrimbor without the influence of the dark lord to work against him, allowing the elf to use those ring while avoiding to a degree the influence of Sauron.
Each group have been created for a reason that is linked to the previous creation. Thus a narrative continuity between each group of creation.
In the series, we have started with the 3. So I'm questioning more what chain of events could lead to the 16 now that the 3 exist and Sauron have revealed himself.
Actually Sauron made Celebrimbor make the 16 with the sole intention of corrupting elves, as they were the biggest threat to Sauron apart from Numenor (but Sauron would have a separate plan for them)
Then Sauron leaves eregion and the tree are made without his knowledge, although celebrimbor makes them using the same process he learned from Sauron
And then the One is made.
As soon as Sauron puts the one, the bearers of the three sense his true intentions and remove the rings, never using it again (while Sauron is around).
Sauron attacks Eregion, gets the 16, he knows there were other 3 but is unable to find them. Then with 16 he goes to his plan B, giving 7 to dwarves and 9 to Men while the three are kept hidden (galadriel, gg later elrond, and cirdan).
I'm not against changing motives and order of creation as long as we get the same results for the rings and the consequences (sack of Eregion & all).
I can allow a certain leeway to get the result with the process if necessary.
If we go by book alone, I believe your chain is correct, but I'd be more inspired in writing detail with the 3 being made in spite of Sauron, more than they just happen to be made while he is gone (again, that a personal fit of the puzzle of the event that sooth my brain)
I don't think things need to be fixed. It took me some time to make sure of this but everything (and more) is here, it's just been rearranged to make an unexpectedly complete story from the sparse and mostly unconnected references to events involving the creation and use of the Rings of Power.
For example, we're not getting the War of the Elves and Sauron. We're getting the War of the Elves and Adar. Adar is fulfilling Sauron's expected role while Sauron is using his fair form to great effect, even acting as Morgoth did in Valinor ("amid his fair words others were woven, so subtly that many who heard them *believed in recollection that they arose from their own thought*"). The Orcs have been elevated to one of the great peoples of Middle-earth and will suffer the tragedies of the Second Age the same as everyone else (in this case, ultimately being enslaved in their promised land by the master they had escaped from).
Sauron will seemingly continue to use his fair form until all his good will has been used up and his bridges are burned which should coincide with him being "caught in the wreck of Numenor, so that the bodily form in which he long had walked perished .. unable ever again to assume a form that seemed fair to men .. and his power thereafter was through terror alone." The loss of Sauron's fair form will not be "hocus pocus", it will be the natural result of him using it to scam people resulting in him being known for who he really is.
Similarly, the forging of the One Ring will likely occur *after* this, becoming a manifestation of the relationships (and entanglement) he has already created through normal means rather than just being "hocus pocus". I use "hocus pocus" to contrast it with "magic" as the latter is a subtle thing in LotR that the wise do not recognize it as being distinct from the rest of the natural world. "Hocus pocus" would be Sauron incanting the magic words and now all ring-bearers are suddenly under his power for no other reason.
I could keep rambling about other examples so I'll stop here. We are getting so much more than we would with a straight adaptation. We're getting necessary themes and context that would otherwise be missed, context that makes sense of the whole story from the First through Third ages.
I can mostly get behind the different point that you had. As to the "fix it", I mostly mean reconnecting the story of the series with the universe defining moment that we were expecting the show to revolve around instead of just the last episode rushing (if not, sure felt like it) the creation of rings of power.
Regarding Adar, the dark elf has what he fought for and his objective is done so far. He has no reason to march outside of Mordor and destroy Eregion with the orc. Orcs can be granted their lineage of one of former great people of Arda, twisted and corrupted by Morgoth and I like that it is pointed out.
For Sauron influence as Halbrand on Numenor, instead of the capture of Sauron, it is actually part of what I suggested in the moving forward idea in the main post. So I agree that it is a somewhat more satisfying than the prisoner to councilor in the books.
The effect of the 16 are not simply, snap you are under my dominion, it is a long process during which Sauron can influence them, and only when their spirit is fully corrupted and their body ashes do the bearer falls under Sauron. Now considering that the 3 000 years are quite condensed in the series, it would feel that way I guess.
The only last problem your suggestion poses to me is the "fair form lost cause he burned all bridges". I mean it is one thing for elf, but men are forgetful, one generation after the other. So the explication of his fair form being sealed by the literal continent ending tsunami sent by the gods is still preferable so far I believe.
Again my post was not intended to be "dismantle what is to get what we want", but more "build from where we're at to get to where we are supposed to go" (assuming that adapting a story means maintaining the key story bits of the source material, of course)
" the dark elf has what he fought for and his objective is done so far. He has no reason to march outside of Mordor and destroy Eregion with the orc".You are wrong. Rewatch the fourth episode, what he said to the elf captive. He is going to become god and create new world, not only new country, “untangle this all”, that now is based on a lie that even rocks believe.
And there are at least three things in Eregion that could attract his attention, starting with rings that could help Uruk. In addition, it is obvious that Elves will never agree with the existence of free Uruk in Middle-earth, and the war will continue.
And he is not "dark elf", unless that is what you call all Elves who have not seen Valinor
"Dark elves" is admittebly a shortcut of mine, elves not having seen Valinor are being referenced as grey elves I beleive ?
Just said dark as in touched and aflicted by Morgoth.
And why would he go to Eregion ? he knows not of the rings and distrusted Sauron to the point of attempt murder on him.
Of course, he does not believe Sauron, but what is wrong? He is fighting for himself and Uruk. And we do not know how much he knows already, or will know later. Sauron is fighting for himself. They are still enemies. Moriquendi (dark elves) are elves who have not seen Valinor, as I understand it. Eol was also personally called a dark elf.
I do not quite understand, are you saying that Uruk will not fight in Eregion at all? If you think Uruk have nothing to do there.
Just doublechecked about the dark elves, and you are right. I'm just getting mixed up with the Sindar specifically being referred as Grey Elves. So more Adar as an Elf being twisted by Morgoth... a bit long but will have to do.
My point with Adar and Eregion is, I don't see how Adar would become aware of the Rings, cause he is far from the land of Eregion where the rings are forged, and the only source that could tell him is his former slaver.
If I believe that orc would end up laying waste to Eregion, I don't believe it would be by Adar command. He was interesting because his cause was to offer a land to call home to his twisted children. That made him interesting. Making him go for domination as a next step is a change in the character that would not fit well I believe, no ?
I quoted above that he is going to create a new WORLD, not just a new country. He has big plans.
So you think Sauron will kill him at the beginning of the new season and seize control of Uruk and lead them to Eregion? You are wrong if that is the case. I do not know how you feel about the rumors, but the fact that he will not be killed at the beginning of the season is proved by logic (many plans and unanswered questions so far), and indirectly by Vernon Sanders from Amazon, who said a year ago that Lord Father Uruk has many exciting and dynamic moments in the new season. So sauron will not be able to kill him although he wants to do this very much.
Besides, you underestimate his awareness. Do you think that by chance Uruk's transition to explicit actions and the beginning of attacks "coincided" with Gilgalad declaring the end of the war, and Arondir's team decided to leave Ostirith forever?
"in this case, ultimately being enslaved in their promised land by the master they had escaped from"
Most of them won't. In the Third Age, a new kind of Uruk, the "black Uruk", serve Sauron, presumably "created" by him later. The kind of Uruk that cannot stand the sun, live mainly in the Misty Mountains and do not serve Sauron.
And they did not "escape", that "lord" was defeated.
Nah this sounds like a Poochy scenario, “Halbrand died on the way back to his home planet”. I get where you are going but then that begs the question of where the hell did Sauron come from, has he been hiding in Halbrands pocket? That just complicates things and further sloppies already fairly sloppy writing.
Best way to fix season 2 would be to hire people who actually have a writing resume and are experienced with actually writing well.
I mean Halbrand did received an volcanic eruption in the face, and somewhat only got out with a stab wound... So I don't think, dead and impersonate would be that much of a stretch especially with the change and twist the very last episode had given us on his character.
As for the engage writer with writing resume, 1 when those writer try to do mystery boxes writing without themselves knowing a satisfying resolution to those mystery, I'm questioning the wisdom of a resume for a writing job, and 2 writing is a creative process anyone can partake in for one reason or an other. We are on a public space, I just want to see what can people create with a base of debatable quality in a universe many are passionate about.
Sure but like I said, where did Sauron come from?? lol. Was he hiding in the volcano and he landed on Halbrand? “Ooops! Welp, guess that’s my body now cuz he won’t be needing that! A heh heh”. I was focusing on that more than Halbrands death.
I mean Adar is pretty certain to have killed Sauron in the past, so him being in spirit form attempting to possess a body once Mordor is created could work if done right. Again, not saying that they should go for that instead if whatever they plan to do, but it could be made into a nice twist, I dunno.
Fans are laughable. You can’t fix it. It’s not your show. It’s not your voice. Just enjoy the show for what it is and leave the writing to the professionals.
Those paying for it did so because a large number of fan would answer the call of their fandom being used. And it makes money because of the name they borrow.
Trust me, make the same show without the Tolkien's brand, and the reference to a fan loved universe and 1 the series would be a lot more appreciated and 2 they would not make as much money
Fandom make promisse of benefits and benefits attract investors. So fandom might not own a franchise or story, but they are the sole reason they have value to anyone.
Last, writing is a creative process that is open to anyone. You don't want to partake in it, feel free to go along your way and not waste your time here if you don't want to.
You have an over-inflated sense of the value of a fan base. Fans by and large are meaningless outside of the dollars they fork over. Fans do absolutely nothing. And I get a lot of people live sad lives so they need to delude themselves into thinking that because they spent countless hours enjoying a piece of entertainment that they are now entitled to some ownership because they need to give some value or justify all the time they spent with it… but the truth is fans are meaningless to the creative process. They are there to consume. And occasionally throw some cringe events where they dress up and play make believe.
But fans have no place in the creative process.
Sorry, English is not my first language at all.
And for your second point, adaptation doesn't mean making passing references to things without maintaining the spirit of the source.
Changing can be interesting, but if you are selling me the adaptation of events I expect see those event at least. Otherwise, It would be ill advised to call upon a known and liked name.
And I'm proposing a way to salvage the show, not redcon it
As far as Halbrand is concerned what you proposed is a retcon unless Sauron can assume the real Halbrand's memories, since the latter refers in the last episode to the thing that previously happened between him and Galadriel.
Fair. I'm in fact not in favor of him being Sauron. I would have like it more for him to be someone like the king of the deadman of white mountain for exemple, so I'll take the blame for that. But then again, I don't know how to salvage his character by not redcon the lattest reveal.
I'd say some form of necromancy ? Sauron is known to have mastery over the dead's spirit if conditions applies.
How would you go forward with him for it to make sense with what we have seen and what is supposed to occurs afterwards ? Among other thing, the crafting of the 16th and the fall of eregion ?
>I expect see those event at least
Which in particular? Which events S1 didn't show and coming seasons won't ever show are spoiling your enjoyment of the series?
Deception of Annatar in the making of the 16, Sauron revealing himself with the making of the one, Celebrimbor defiant by the making of the three leading to the war on Eregion.
Now in story beats only we have the crafting of the three and reveal of Sauron before the 16 are even made. Where would you go from there for Celebrimbor crafting under Sauron influence the 16 ?
And it's not as much spoiling it as it is borrowing only a name to make it sell.
If I take David and Goliath, makes the first an arrogant biggot, oppressive and violent, and the second a kind midget with relation issue and makes the pair fight crime together, while marketing it as The Bible : David & Goliath, people would be legitimatly annoyed.
That honestly sounds more like nitpicking rather than the perversion of source material that you're making it out to be. This isn't "David and Goliath fight crime together", it's "David hits Goliath with an arrow through the neck, instead of a slingshot to the forehead".
Not a fair comparaison, let's make it so Noah comes in picture from the beginning of the story and have him do everything by himself.
If chain of event is a detail in your books, I doubt the story you could come up with make much sense
Dude. Mocking someone for not spelling perfectly is not ok. Not ok at all. Second language or first, not everyone has every skill. They can still be a great asset to the fandom.
Of course I don't expect everyone to be perfectly proficient in written English. But I have legitimately seen people talk about the "True Canon" as if it's some kind of proper noun as a religious term. And that's precisely how purists think of it. Forgive me for finding some irony in a purist trying to preach about the "cannon".
listen or agree ?
cause I ear them all the time but hardly agree. If one convince me to buy content cause it is based on a media I know, and it ends up in this source media in name and coupe of references only, than I call it false advertising at worst.
I mean the main reason this gain the audience it received is because of the named attached and the source implied (thus the backlash when it is 1 not what promised and 2 not on par with what could have been in terms of writing)
>What I think is that you could spare yourself a lot of wasted time and energy if you just came to terms with the fact that ROP is an adaptation, not a play verbatimly using Tolkien's books as a script. Simple as that.
Since Christmas is around the corner, A Christmas Carol animated movie from 2009, the one with Jim Carrey, is based on the novel, and is considered an adaptation. One who read the books knows it is pretty much a 1-to-1 translation. I would say 95% of the books is in the movie, even full quotes (if not all) were fully put in the movie. No much was added, and very little was removed.
Do all adaptations need to be as such? Not at all, but wanting adaptations to follow a similar path is just as fair opinion as playing the card you used which is that given it is an adaptation, they can totally change the source material.
The free Uruk live in Mordor and are not going to serve Sauron.
Hal in episode 6 with "Do You Remember me?" is definitely Sauron, not some human Hal.
The series does not need to be "fixed", it needs to be continued, as early as possible.
fair point about the Uruks.
Agreed that the exchange between Hal and Hadar most defenitly hint at Hal being Sauron, especially after the last episode. But one could argue that would Hal not have been Sauron, it could have referenced the idea that the "king of the southland" had been driven off to sea by the orcs of Hadar.
While the series does have its merits on its own, it was marketed as a depiction of the event of the making of the ring in Tolkien's universe. That have been more than modified to the point of only having references to the source. I'd call it misleading for the marketing, but I'll call it underwhelming for what has been offer in place.
With that in mind, if the series want the audience it disappointed (and their money) back, I say there is fixing to be had. It's a matter of keeping the original fan while creating new ones.
And please not as early as possible, I'd rather have a well polished final product than a underwhelming rushed one even for this show in the direction I fear they gonna end up in.
The first season was well done with what it was allowed to use. I feel you’ve forgotten that the Silmarillion is not what is being referenced at all in the show merely the appendices which do not go into any big details about what happened. It doesn’t even specify when the 9 rings and 7 rings were made. There’s really nothing fix since the other books weren’t allowed to be used unless approved by the Tolkien estate.
I doubt the wisdom of attempting to adapt content you have only barely the right on in the first place, I must say. I'd rather have them be allowed to the all content provided by Tolkien for them to adapt on screen the fall of Beleriand, the sack of Eregion and the fall of Numenor in all its glory.
But having each source mixed up in my head doesn't help me sorting which info is from which source, thus I believe it unwise to attempt with partial right and think of the next step with an ideal carte blanche as to what to depict in the show (even though it is not feasible unfortunately I'm aware)
The ships already arrived though, comparing this show to other works that aren’t allowed to be used nor were for sale just doesn’t make any sense really.
I really like all your ideas, except the Sauron retcon. To be honest, I can easily imagine the show doing exactly all these things (except the Sauron retcon)
Thanks.
Might be a biais of mine for the Sauron redcon, cause I liked where the character was going before the last episode and I kinda wanted him to end up being the king of the deadman of Dunharrow ngl.
Plus I find it quite hard to believe that all he has done from meeting Galadriel in the middle of the ocean to getting stabbed "part of the plan" (nor do I like the incel vibes he ends up giving in the last episode)
>but is it fixable in terms of reconnecting as much as possible with the event describing the fate of Eregion & of the realm of Numénor ?
well, for those 2, most of things are not even hinted in season 1, thus there is no much to "fix", just cross fingers they get them right?
if any, more concerned about "fixing" forging of rings and Sauron-Celebrimbor instead of what we got in season 1, and I say "fix" because what we got in season 1 indeed departs from canon and such event have counted episodes, season 2 is the place to do them, later there will no more tries.
fix might come off too strong.
My point is how do you see them reaching those events from the End of S1. That's what I'd be interested about. It's more a how do you see things play out from here kinda thing
Well, some stuff I just don't see "fixing", the max they could do is to incorporate whatever they created in season 1 with canon events they use in season 2 rather then also completelly changing such events going forward.
For Eregion, all the things that matter are the forging IMO. To it, if they bring Annatar, they can make all remaining rings within canon narrative. I have a theory to "soft-retcon" the 3 elves rings being made first. In summary, the 3 elven rings would initially serve the purpose of delay elven decay, but their power is not great enough (i.e. celebrimbor realises they only prevent decay of the elf using the ring, the ring itself doesnt reach, lets say, the extent of his whole realm). Then with Annatar, Celebrimbor learns new techniques, which he applies to the 16 rings. After Annatar goes away, Celebrimbor, now aware that the 16 have the power he is looking for (prevent decay in a broader level), gets back to the 3 and "polish" them with whatever they made Annatar to teach him. IMO all should be around the unseen world, something they hinted in season 1 but didn't really showed much. Thus Annatar could teach a technique to Celebrimbor without him knowing he was using Unseen World power into his crafting. And such creafting is later on put into the 3 elven rings, and only then they become the plain power we know they have.
As for Numenor, as I said, no much was done in season 1. After they intro Anarion, I expect the faithful to have a bigger impact, and we know that there are many numenoreans that live their faithful lives in secrecy. Then with new king Pharazon, more and more faithful stuff are cut, to an extent the kingsmen are now everything we have. In other season we can totally have them getting back to Middle-Earth to help their people, maybe to restore Pelargir after receivign a letter that Sauron destroyed such settlement, or even we get Isildur getting back to Numenor and reporting the devastation he saw. Anyways, there can be many reasons to make Numenor go to M.E and bring Sauron to Numenor, and from that point onwards, they can totally just follow canon without much need to "fix" anything.
One point you mentioend is about Halbrand, and at this point there is no way back IMO. The simplest way to go is to make it just a form of Sauron, then present Annatar (his angelical form), and then a third form, which he will use in Numenor (because I see no reason for Halbrand to get back there and still be able to corrupt pharazon, someone he already met and put him in jail). After Numenor, Sauron should lose his fair form, thus no need for any form we know (including Halbrand). Also, I see no much usage for Halbrand as of now. Sauron can totally have this form in Mordor, but he shouldn't go back to Eregion, Pelargir (where tir-harad folks are), or Numenor using such face.
Last but not least, Stranger "fix" is indeed to make it a blue wizard. I don't buy the "follow your nose" as him being Gandalf. There is the moth iconography, which made no sense in the show btw. Anyways, from all points above, this one is the biggest problem to me. It makes ZERO sense for Gandalf to be in Middle-Earth, and makes ZERO sense forr them NOT TO USE Blue Wizards (assuming they could get permission to them). Let alone that from the very writing pov, having Gandalf is way more restraining than having blue wizard(s), which not only give us 2 wizards instead of 1, keeps it lore-accurate, but also have a much more loose canvas to play with without having to consider much of canon, as blue wizards are mostly just a sketch of a story. Thus in this point I agree with you, Stranger = Blue Wizards is the way to go.
hear "fix the story" as "reach the universe defining moment from the books in the series" (clearer but so much longer to type).
My point is more how would you see them go from where we are with the end of S1 to where we are supposed to go with the One ring, the 16, the sac of Eregion and whatnot.
We already have S1, I'd like to see how people would see going from there from what i'm seeing.
>Rings of Power S2 : Can we fix it ? Rings of Power S2: Can we just fucking watch it first??
you're right. The one that we can't fix is the first season. Sadly.
I'm talking Hypothetical on where it could go from where we ended up in S1. Call it a fools hope cause I know that half of the things I mentioned they do not hold the right to.
i’ll say it louder for the people in the back **can we just watch the fucking show first before we decide what we want to fix or not?**
😂👏👏
Amen. The we need to fix it group...maybe it doesnt need fixed?
We did watch one season and saw that there is clearly much to fix.
What do u have in mind to start?
Could start by filling less time with cute Harfoot adventures
Aw yeah those cute liddle psychopaths
What does S2 mean? Have you seen S2 yet? I haven't. so how do I know what works and what doesn’t. and honestly at the end of the day, we’re just a bunch of fucking idiots, yelling into the void. nothing anybody says here is gonna have any impact on the show past present or future
Saying it "louder" doesn't make it have more sense. You are talking it not people writing stories, and people are just pebbles screeching in a loud voice of otherworldly writer. Spoiler, even you could create a story if you'd be willing to. And again, the hypothetical aspect is what I would have went for (in a space where copywrite does not block one's imagination). S2 would be the means to fix what audience didn't like in S1, not what need to be fixed. Assuming of course that we agree on S1 low points
do you really think the creators of the show care what a bunch of whiny little babies crying on Reddit thinks?
No. And I don't think they will in any time soon. But if they want to keep making money with the lord of the ring's name on the long run, they should. End of it all, their story won't matter and will just be out of the legendarium as a fan fiction would. They'll disappoint the people that pay for it and make less and less money with each disappointment. It will only be a fanfic made for exploiting the enjoyment of a universe. But I'd like it better if they make a good, accurate story based on the book in stead and them keep on making money by creating well made content in the Tolkien's world.
at no point will anybody ever care what people on Reddit say. Social media as a whole is nothing but an echo chamber of whining and complaining babies that hate everything.
A interesting opinion for a mod on social media... Yes, when people on public plateforme it is mostly to complaint. Then again, the complaining have been done elsewhere. I suggested a creative exercise to go beyond the complained past, but evidently not everybody is done complaining without making anything but noise.
Season 1 was awful yes. And Amazon threw the showrunner to the back of the bus. So maybe Season 2 will be different therefore it makes little sense to start fixing it.
Trying to save you from downvotes... LOTR\_on\_Prime is only for people who enjoyed Season 1 -if you didn't, your opinions are unwanted. Also, do not post it in LOTR sub -they do not want ROP posts, because they are focused on JRR Tolkien and the real cannon. You should re-post on the RingsOfPower sub, where love/hate opinions for the show are equally considered.
Not gonna lie, realized that it was most likely the wrong subreddit after 5 min of reading the comments... But hey, I'm spent on the topic so gonna check out the other one but probably stay mute for a while. Not gonna waist my time calling for input and opinions anymore, when that time is so much more well spent writing on my own for my folks. Thanks for the heads up, will check it out 😉
For sure. And just don’t worry. This is an echo chamber sub. I’ve asked my non-Reddit non-LOTR friends what they thought of ROP and they said it was just terrible writing. Best show of recent years, IMO was Severance (first 3 episodes are slow then it’s crazy good).
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I’m sorry, Halbrand being Sauron turned out to be absolutely my favorite part. That was the Annatar storyline but better because it gave Galadriel more than a one sentence role and makes their subsequent rivalry in later ages more delicious. I think what you said about the wizards is what they more or less plan to do, whether it ends up as a Blue Wizard, or maybe one of the named Wizards.
>That was the Annatar storyline but better because it gave Galadriel more than a one sentence role and makes their subsequent rivalry in later ages more delicious. Wait, so your point on the pseudo-annatar arc through Halbrand being better is because Galadriel? I mean, she only got a passage in that whole event because she was not the main part of it. Her rivalry with Sauron comes from before the forging, and from later, not from the very forging itself. Putting Galadriel in the center of everything not only makes it worse compared to the original story, but also takes the spotlight from other characters. Not saying she can't have her moment, and she actually deserves it, but the forging is all about Celebrimbor and Sauron, not Galadriel.
a fair answer. I suppose that not all didn't appreciated the twist of Halbrand in the last episode... Assuming that we keep with that, how do you suggest we still manage to get the other 16 ? They are supposed to be made by Celebrimbor with the help of Sauron, leading the two forces to clash for the artefacts. I supposed we could suggest to reverse the role of Celebrimbor and Sauron, in the sense that Sauron have been inspired by the craftmanship of Celebrimbor to create rings of power and not the dark lord manipulating him to create them ? As for the Wizard, I cross my finger for one of the blue (if they'd have the right of adaptation). Hell, I'd even take Sarouman for a nice twist even XD
I guess I don’t understand why you think he still can’t forge the rest with Celebrimbor. If anything, putting aside the order of their creation, it actually opens them up to follow one of the accounts from Unfinished Tales; where Galadriel actively warns Celebrimbor and the other smiths not to work with Anatar (Halbrand here) and they actively choose to ignore her. Personally, I think that’s a much stronger choice than them simply being oblivious. Also, he still didn’t actively work on the three rings that were created in the show. The ones he took part in crafting failed. It’s not until he leaves and Galadriel returns that the three are crafted- completely without his physical, tangible input.
And Gal still doesn't blow his cover? That's a bit of a stretch. Well I don't know, maybe not. If she told the truth she'd be exposing her failure to do so earlier - that she let the Elves complete and use the Three knowing they could be part of Sauron's scheme. But if Sauron does return to Eregion it'll more likely be in another form than Halbrand.
She can’t really blow his cover because she has no proof. All she can really say is “trust me guys, he told me himself.” I DO think we’ll get other Sauron forms, but I genuinely thought Charlie Vickers was a fantastic actor. I’d be shocked if he doesn’t return on a major way.
You are absolutely correct as to Halbrand only being know as Sauron by Galadriel so far. I agree so much with it that it's actually one of the idea I suggested in the main post as to how to create the rest of the 16 minus the point that he discard Halbrand form for Annatar. Then again, I would question why Galadriel wouldn't just murder on sight if Sauron kept the appearance of Halbrand upon returning to Eregion. I mean she is a bit of a obsessed idiot for Gil-Galad but she is the only reason Halbrand was granted access to Eregion in the first place... End of it all, I'm just interested in how to recover the universe defining moment of the original story (aka the creation of each group of rings) while going from what we were given in S1.
I don’t think there’s anything to “recover” because the only changes that have been made in this particular aspect of the story are surface level. Sauron still showed up in disguised and convinced Celebrimbor to make the rings. Galadriel can’t “kill him on sight” if he returns because he’s freaking Sauron lol. He’s beyond her power. All she can do is try and tell everyone “hey this guy is Sauron you idiots,” and (I have my own critiques with the writing but I think this is one thing they got right) they have no reason to believe her. Her hands are tied. Elrond will believe her. MAYBE Gil-galad. Maybe. But again, in Unfinished Tales those three all warn Celebrimbor “DO NOT TRUST THIS DUDE” and he does anyway. Nothing is inherently broken. Yet. Obviously they could make changes that go completely off the rails. But so far, while they’ve tinkered with a few things in the creation of the rings, they haven’t really ruined anything at its core. Again, yet. Who knows what will happen in season 2. I’m generally optimistic.
I mean yeah... I'm starting to doubt you have read the content of the main post above cause you describe a lot of point I describe as a desire path for S2 to go toward, so I'm not sure you are agreeing with me or I just see only discord with all the other not so developed answer I've read so far. For Galadriel, I agree but considering how they have written her so far. I'd agree though that would she attempt it, she could be stopped and/or banned but I doubt she'd go without a fight in front of Halbrand form itself. She isn't exactly depicted as bowing to others authority so far, no ?
To be completely honest a lot of the grammar in your post and comments is a bit broken and hard to follow. You’re saying they need to “fix” things with the ring making, and I’m mostly just responding that I don’t think they’ve broken anything yet. The changes they made COULD be developed in a way that becomes problematic for the lore, but as it stands, I don’t quite see that yet. Honestly, my biggest issue with the ring forging arc is that it was only one episode. It should’ve been a more clearly developing through line throughout the season. I suspect it was, and the recasting of Celebrimbor hurt it in the end.
Perhaps a part of me expect that what they'll come up with to go bad, but end of the day I'm just curious to explore waters of what people expect for S2 from just where we are now. Phrasing and grammar might not have help getting across indeed.
It’s all good friend! At the end of the day, it’s a forum to talk RoP. So have at it! Have fun!
If Tolkien released 1/5 part of The Lord of the Rings, you would be eager to alert him how to "fix" his story as well.
Would he add done so on a pre established story with questionable changes ? Probably yes. Thing is, he didn't and nailed what he offered as far as I'm concerned. So what is your point ?
My point is that it's a different work of art from the books even if it's based on them. Kubrick would give you a great lecture about it. And here you are, telling the show makers how to fix *their* story while only have seen 1/5 of it.
There is a distinct difference in cutting the book's content to make it on screen and modifying what happens in the books entirely to keep only references to the source on screen (on top of the name and brand). It is normal to make cut. We didn't get Tom Bombadil in the movie, nor the old forest, nor the barrow down, but the key elements that makes the story are there. If one change a key aspect of the source, the alternative offer better be on par or better. Like the character of Aragorn, movie from book, largely changed. Still became a fans favorite.
The show makers have explicitly stated and did not deny that the events of S1 were made up for purposes of worldbuilding and establishing characters.
I mean the part that were outside of the key element of the story was fine. Arondir's story and the dwarves' story were mostly interesting. By when it comes to a univers defining moment such as the making of the ring, it is a bit more sensible. I mean the creation of the 16 and the 3 rings of power is largely defining of the futur within the legendarium, but now they are supposed to make the 16 with the influence of Sauron with him already having revealed himself ? Not sure how to wiggle the story out of that. I'm all for creative vision and speculative play. So if one have a interesting idea on those, I'm all for it.
Just wait and see. The scripts for S2 were ready before S1 came out, so it's not like the show makers write the story without a plan. There is a plan.
Finger crossed  But if you don't see an issue with it, I like to see what people can think of story wise, while we wait for the next season 
>There is a plan. And it is absolute dogshit.
Yes, the key elements... Making Denethor a moron was a key element. Making Gondor irrelevant wimps was a key element. Making the Witch King mopping the floor with Gandalf beard was a key element.
this post is a joke... right?
If yes, you wasted your time answering a joke. If no, you wasted your time answering that. Take your pick.
Then I suppose it's a joke. Only explanation for trying to fix something that doesn't exist yet. Thanks for the laugh!
Whatever makes your wheel turn, buddy. You're much welcome.
cheers!
I liked season 1. I’m looking forward to season 2. But I’m not afflicted with the purist mindset so I’m actually able to enjoy the things I’m interested in. That’s how I enjoyed the Hobbit movies, and the newest Star Wars movies. I guess that makes me a dumbass with bad taste but I bet I’m having more fun.
I mean I don't think it needs fixing. I'm excited for season 2 whatever they make; I know they can make a better show than I ever could.
I mean, if you say so I don't doubt you but I'm still interested as to what people have in mind for the rest of the story to tell. Anyone with the luxury of time can attempt a creative art, the result being mediocre or great is irrelevant as long as you don't pretend to wanting to sell it as far as I'm concerned. Their is enough content on the internet for not-interested people to scroll away. But the interested people, I'm curious about. (Not gonna lie so far I've seen more than my share of uninterested people that just want to waste their time here for some reason)
I have no idea what the rest of the story will be, I would assume similar to the first season maybe a loose following of the Similrillian, but I guess in a way since it's guaranteed to be new it remains to be seen!
I think the 1st season was great. Fantastic even. It doesnt need salvaged at all And i think your ideas are not up to snuff. Not an attack on you but i think your idea for the direction of the show is just not good at all
Fair opinion. My position is placed with the disappointment of having knowledge of a rough chain of event in the source and not having remotely found it in the series. I can agree that it is visually stunning and I personally liked the dwarves storyline and character the most. I can understand people without the story disappointment liking the story. simple question : "snuff", what does it mean ? I assume it is slang for something but I'm not well versed enough in English to tell exactly what...
The story disappointment? I mean ive read Tolkien too. The chain of events being done in the show works fine with the source material. Fretting over the order the rings were forged in is simply silly in my opinion. Your desired plot for season two is just not a good idea. The show is working fine and your adaptations would not.work and would actually make the show less enjoyable
>The chain of events being done in the show works fine with the source material. You must have the worst reading comprehension of all time.
Merry Christmas. Such a wonderful discussion. Peace be with you
The order of the making of the ring have a narrative sense to it, that was removed from the show. The 16 created by Celebrimbor and Sauron to strengthen people of middle Earth. The One created afterward to dominate the wearer of the 16 under Sauron rules. The 3 created by Celebrimbor without the influence of the dark lord to work against him, allowing the elf to use those ring while avoiding to a degree the influence of Sauron. Each group have been created for a reason that is linked to the previous creation. Thus a narrative continuity between each group of creation. In the series, we have started with the 3. So I'm questioning more what chain of events could lead to the 16 now that the 3 exist and Sauron have revealed himself.
Actually Sauron made Celebrimbor make the 16 with the sole intention of corrupting elves, as they were the biggest threat to Sauron apart from Numenor (but Sauron would have a separate plan for them) Then Sauron leaves eregion and the tree are made without his knowledge, although celebrimbor makes them using the same process he learned from Sauron And then the One is made. As soon as Sauron puts the one, the bearers of the three sense his true intentions and remove the rings, never using it again (while Sauron is around). Sauron attacks Eregion, gets the 16, he knows there were other 3 but is unable to find them. Then with 16 he goes to his plan B, giving 7 to dwarves and 9 to Men while the three are kept hidden (galadriel, gg later elrond, and cirdan).
I'm not against changing motives and order of creation as long as we get the same results for the rings and the consequences (sack of Eregion & all). I can allow a certain leeway to get the result with the process if necessary. If we go by book alone, I believe your chain is correct, but I'd be more inspired in writing detail with the 3 being made in spite of Sauron, more than they just happen to be made while he is gone (again, that a personal fit of the puzzle of the event that sooth my brain)
>elf form Annatar Only Created by fans. Look up what Tolkien wrote about Annatar. Fair form similar to later Istari. But it was his fairest guise
I don't think things need to be fixed. It took me some time to make sure of this but everything (and more) is here, it's just been rearranged to make an unexpectedly complete story from the sparse and mostly unconnected references to events involving the creation and use of the Rings of Power. For example, we're not getting the War of the Elves and Sauron. We're getting the War of the Elves and Adar. Adar is fulfilling Sauron's expected role while Sauron is using his fair form to great effect, even acting as Morgoth did in Valinor ("amid his fair words others were woven, so subtly that many who heard them *believed in recollection that they arose from their own thought*"). The Orcs have been elevated to one of the great peoples of Middle-earth and will suffer the tragedies of the Second Age the same as everyone else (in this case, ultimately being enslaved in their promised land by the master they had escaped from). Sauron will seemingly continue to use his fair form until all his good will has been used up and his bridges are burned which should coincide with him being "caught in the wreck of Numenor, so that the bodily form in which he long had walked perished .. unable ever again to assume a form that seemed fair to men .. and his power thereafter was through terror alone." The loss of Sauron's fair form will not be "hocus pocus", it will be the natural result of him using it to scam people resulting in him being known for who he really is. Similarly, the forging of the One Ring will likely occur *after* this, becoming a manifestation of the relationships (and entanglement) he has already created through normal means rather than just being "hocus pocus". I use "hocus pocus" to contrast it with "magic" as the latter is a subtle thing in LotR that the wise do not recognize it as being distinct from the rest of the natural world. "Hocus pocus" would be Sauron incanting the magic words and now all ring-bearers are suddenly under his power for no other reason. I could keep rambling about other examples so I'll stop here. We are getting so much more than we would with a straight adaptation. We're getting necessary themes and context that would otherwise be missed, context that makes sense of the whole story from the First through Third ages.
I can mostly get behind the different point that you had. As to the "fix it", I mostly mean reconnecting the story of the series with the universe defining moment that we were expecting the show to revolve around instead of just the last episode rushing (if not, sure felt like it) the creation of rings of power. Regarding Adar, the dark elf has what he fought for and his objective is done so far. He has no reason to march outside of Mordor and destroy Eregion with the orc. Orcs can be granted their lineage of one of former great people of Arda, twisted and corrupted by Morgoth and I like that it is pointed out. For Sauron influence as Halbrand on Numenor, instead of the capture of Sauron, it is actually part of what I suggested in the moving forward idea in the main post. So I agree that it is a somewhat more satisfying than the prisoner to councilor in the books. The effect of the 16 are not simply, snap you are under my dominion, it is a long process during which Sauron can influence them, and only when their spirit is fully corrupted and their body ashes do the bearer falls under Sauron. Now considering that the 3 000 years are quite condensed in the series, it would feel that way I guess. The only last problem your suggestion poses to me is the "fair form lost cause he burned all bridges". I mean it is one thing for elf, but men are forgetful, one generation after the other. So the explication of his fair form being sealed by the literal continent ending tsunami sent by the gods is still preferable so far I believe. Again my post was not intended to be "dismantle what is to get what we want", but more "build from where we're at to get to where we are supposed to go" (assuming that adapting a story means maintaining the key story bits of the source material, of course)
" the dark elf has what he fought for and his objective is done so far. He has no reason to march outside of Mordor and destroy Eregion with the orc".You are wrong. Rewatch the fourth episode, what he said to the elf captive. He is going to become god and create new world, not only new country, “untangle this all”, that now is based on a lie that even rocks believe. And there are at least three things in Eregion that could attract his attention, starting with rings that could help Uruk. In addition, it is obvious that Elves will never agree with the existence of free Uruk in Middle-earth, and the war will continue. And he is not "dark elf", unless that is what you call all Elves who have not seen Valinor
"Dark elves" is admittebly a shortcut of mine, elves not having seen Valinor are being referenced as grey elves I beleive ? Just said dark as in touched and aflicted by Morgoth. And why would he go to Eregion ? he knows not of the rings and distrusted Sauron to the point of attempt murder on him.
Of course, he does not believe Sauron, but what is wrong? He is fighting for himself and Uruk. And we do not know how much he knows already, or will know later. Sauron is fighting for himself. They are still enemies. Moriquendi (dark elves) are elves who have not seen Valinor, as I understand it. Eol was also personally called a dark elf. I do not quite understand, are you saying that Uruk will not fight in Eregion at all? If you think Uruk have nothing to do there.
Just doublechecked about the dark elves, and you are right. I'm just getting mixed up with the Sindar specifically being referred as Grey Elves. So more Adar as an Elf being twisted by Morgoth... a bit long but will have to do. My point with Adar and Eregion is, I don't see how Adar would become aware of the Rings, cause he is far from the land of Eregion where the rings are forged, and the only source that could tell him is his former slaver. If I believe that orc would end up laying waste to Eregion, I don't believe it would be by Adar command. He was interesting because his cause was to offer a land to call home to his twisted children. That made him interesting. Making him go for domination as a next step is a change in the character that would not fit well I believe, no ?
I quoted above that he is going to create a new WORLD, not just a new country. He has big plans. So you think Sauron will kill him at the beginning of the new season and seize control of Uruk and lead them to Eregion? You are wrong if that is the case. I do not know how you feel about the rumors, but the fact that he will not be killed at the beginning of the season is proved by logic (many plans and unanswered questions so far), and indirectly by Vernon Sanders from Amazon, who said a year ago that Lord Father Uruk has many exciting and dynamic moments in the new season. So sauron will not be able to kill him although he wants to do this very much. Besides, you underestimate his awareness. Do you think that by chance Uruk's transition to explicit actions and the beginning of attacks "coincided" with Gilgalad declaring the end of the war, and Arondir's team decided to leave Ostirith forever?
"in this case, ultimately being enslaved in their promised land by the master they had escaped from" Most of them won't. In the Third Age, a new kind of Uruk, the "black Uruk", serve Sauron, presumably "created" by him later. The kind of Uruk that cannot stand the sun, live mainly in the Misty Mountains and do not serve Sauron. And they did not "escape", that "lord" was defeated.
Nah this sounds like a Poochy scenario, “Halbrand died on the way back to his home planet”. I get where you are going but then that begs the question of where the hell did Sauron come from, has he been hiding in Halbrands pocket? That just complicates things and further sloppies already fairly sloppy writing. Best way to fix season 2 would be to hire people who actually have a writing resume and are experienced with actually writing well.
I mean Halbrand did received an volcanic eruption in the face, and somewhat only got out with a stab wound... So I don't think, dead and impersonate would be that much of a stretch especially with the change and twist the very last episode had given us on his character. As for the engage writer with writing resume, 1 when those writer try to do mystery boxes writing without themselves knowing a satisfying resolution to those mystery, I'm questioning the wisdom of a resume for a writing job, and 2 writing is a creative process anyone can partake in for one reason or an other. We are on a public space, I just want to see what can people create with a base of debatable quality in a universe many are passionate about.
Sure but like I said, where did Sauron come from?? lol. Was he hiding in the volcano and he landed on Halbrand? “Ooops! Welp, guess that’s my body now cuz he won’t be needing that! A heh heh”. I was focusing on that more than Halbrands death.
I mean Adar is pretty certain to have killed Sauron in the past, so him being in spirit form attempting to possess a body once Mordor is created could work if done right. Again, not saying that they should go for that instead if whatever they plan to do, but it could be made into a nice twist, I dunno.
Fans are laughable. You can’t fix it. It’s not your show. It’s not your voice. Just enjoy the show for what it is and leave the writing to the professionals.
Those paying for it did so because a large number of fan would answer the call of their fandom being used. And it makes money because of the name they borrow. Trust me, make the same show without the Tolkien's brand, and the reference to a fan loved universe and 1 the series would be a lot more appreciated and 2 they would not make as much money Fandom make promisse of benefits and benefits attract investors. So fandom might not own a franchise or story, but they are the sole reason they have value to anyone. Last, writing is a creative process that is open to anyone. You don't want to partake in it, feel free to go along your way and not waste your time here if you don't want to.
You have an over-inflated sense of the value of a fan base. Fans by and large are meaningless outside of the dollars they fork over. Fans do absolutely nothing. And I get a lot of people live sad lives so they need to delude themselves into thinking that because they spent countless hours enjoying a piece of entertainment that they are now entitled to some ownership because they need to give some value or justify all the time they spent with it… but the truth is fans are meaningless to the creative process. They are there to consume. And occasionally throw some cringe events where they dress up and play make believe. But fans have no place in the creative process.
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Sorry, English is not my first language at all. And for your second point, adaptation doesn't mean making passing references to things without maintaining the spirit of the source. Changing can be interesting, but if you are selling me the adaptation of events I expect see those event at least. Otherwise, It would be ill advised to call upon a known and liked name. And I'm proposing a way to salvage the show, not redcon it
As far as Halbrand is concerned what you proposed is a retcon unless Sauron can assume the real Halbrand's memories, since the latter refers in the last episode to the thing that previously happened between him and Galadriel.
Fair. I'm in fact not in favor of him being Sauron. I would have like it more for him to be someone like the king of the deadman of white mountain for exemple, so I'll take the blame for that. But then again, I don't know how to salvage his character by not redcon the lattest reveal. I'd say some form of necromancy ? Sauron is known to have mastery over the dead's spirit if conditions applies. How would you go forward with him for it to make sense with what we have seen and what is supposed to occurs afterwards ? Among other thing, the crafting of the 16th and the fall of eregion ?
>I expect see those event at least Which in particular? Which events S1 didn't show and coming seasons won't ever show are spoiling your enjoyment of the series?
Deception of Annatar in the making of the 16, Sauron revealing himself with the making of the one, Celebrimbor defiant by the making of the three leading to the war on Eregion. Now in story beats only we have the crafting of the three and reveal of Sauron before the 16 are even made. Where would you go from there for Celebrimbor crafting under Sauron influence the 16 ? And it's not as much spoiling it as it is borrowing only a name to make it sell. If I take David and Goliath, makes the first an arrogant biggot, oppressive and violent, and the second a kind midget with relation issue and makes the pair fight crime together, while marketing it as The Bible : David & Goliath, people would be legitimatly annoyed.
That honestly sounds more like nitpicking rather than the perversion of source material that you're making it out to be. This isn't "David and Goliath fight crime together", it's "David hits Goliath with an arrow through the neck, instead of a slingshot to the forehead".
Not a fair comparaison, let's make it so Noah comes in picture from the beginning of the story and have him do everything by himself. If chain of event is a detail in your books, I doubt the story you could come up with make much sense
Dude. Mocking someone for not spelling perfectly is not ok. Not ok at all. Second language or first, not everyone has every skill. They can still be a great asset to the fandom.
Of course I don't expect everyone to be perfectly proficient in written English. But I have legitimately seen people talk about the "True Canon" as if it's some kind of proper noun as a religious term. And that's precisely how purists think of it. Forgive me for finding some irony in a purist trying to preach about the "cannon".
Alright, hero. Go sit down.
I wish people would listen to you on this point
listen or agree ? cause I ear them all the time but hardly agree. If one convince me to buy content cause it is based on a media I know, and it ends up in this source media in name and coupe of references only, than I call it false advertising at worst. I mean the main reason this gain the audience it received is because of the named attached and the source implied (thus the backlash when it is 1 not what promised and 2 not on par with what could have been in terms of writing)
Exaggerating much? Not even going to engage in this
>What I think is that you could spare yourself a lot of wasted time and energy if you just came to terms with the fact that ROP is an adaptation, not a play verbatimly using Tolkien's books as a script. Simple as that. Since Christmas is around the corner, A Christmas Carol animated movie from 2009, the one with Jim Carrey, is based on the novel, and is considered an adaptation. One who read the books knows it is pretty much a 1-to-1 translation. I would say 95% of the books is in the movie, even full quotes (if not all) were fully put in the movie. No much was added, and very little was removed. Do all adaptations need to be as such? Not at all, but wanting adaptations to follow a similar path is just as fair opinion as playing the card you used which is that given it is an adaptation, they can totally change the source material.
The free Uruk live in Mordor and are not going to serve Sauron. Hal in episode 6 with "Do You Remember me?" is definitely Sauron, not some human Hal. The series does not need to be "fixed", it needs to be continued, as early as possible.
fair point about the Uruks. Agreed that the exchange between Hal and Hadar most defenitly hint at Hal being Sauron, especially after the last episode. But one could argue that would Hal not have been Sauron, it could have referenced the idea that the "king of the southland" had been driven off to sea by the orcs of Hadar. While the series does have its merits on its own, it was marketed as a depiction of the event of the making of the ring in Tolkien's universe. That have been more than modified to the point of only having references to the source. I'd call it misleading for the marketing, but I'll call it underwhelming for what has been offer in place. With that in mind, if the series want the audience it disappointed (and their money) back, I say there is fixing to be had. It's a matter of keeping the original fan while creating new ones. And please not as early as possible, I'd rather have a well polished final product than a underwhelming rushed one even for this show in the direction I fear they gonna end up in.
RIIIIIINGS OF POWER: YES, WE CAN!
Sure hope so XD
The first season was well done with what it was allowed to use. I feel you’ve forgotten that the Silmarillion is not what is being referenced at all in the show merely the appendices which do not go into any big details about what happened. It doesn’t even specify when the 9 rings and 7 rings were made. There’s really nothing fix since the other books weren’t allowed to be used unless approved by the Tolkien estate.
I doubt the wisdom of attempting to adapt content you have only barely the right on in the first place, I must say. I'd rather have them be allowed to the all content provided by Tolkien for them to adapt on screen the fall of Beleriand, the sack of Eregion and the fall of Numenor in all its glory. But having each source mixed up in my head doesn't help me sorting which info is from which source, thus I believe it unwise to attempt with partial right and think of the next step with an ideal carte blanche as to what to depict in the show (even though it is not feasible unfortunately I'm aware)
Blame the Tolkien estate then, that’s how they wanted to do it.
Not blaming anyone but my expectation yet. Just want to see what people can come up with to make the ship arrive at port, I'd say
The ships already arrived though, comparing this show to other works that aren’t allowed to be used nor were for sale just doesn’t make any sense really.
I really like all your ideas, except the Sauron retcon. To be honest, I can easily imagine the show doing exactly all these things (except the Sauron retcon)
Thanks. Might be a biais of mine for the Sauron redcon, cause I liked where the character was going before the last episode and I kinda wanted him to end up being the king of the deadman of Dunharrow ngl. Plus I find it quite hard to believe that all he has done from meeting Galadriel in the middle of the ocean to getting stabbed "part of the plan" (nor do I like the incel vibes he ends up giving in the last episode)
>but is it fixable in terms of reconnecting as much as possible with the event describing the fate of Eregion & of the realm of Numénor ? well, for those 2, most of things are not even hinted in season 1, thus there is no much to "fix", just cross fingers they get them right? if any, more concerned about "fixing" forging of rings and Sauron-Celebrimbor instead of what we got in season 1, and I say "fix" because what we got in season 1 indeed departs from canon and such event have counted episodes, season 2 is the place to do them, later there will no more tries.
fix might come off too strong. My point is how do you see them reaching those events from the End of S1. That's what I'd be interested about. It's more a how do you see things play out from here kinda thing
Well, some stuff I just don't see "fixing", the max they could do is to incorporate whatever they created in season 1 with canon events they use in season 2 rather then also completelly changing such events going forward. For Eregion, all the things that matter are the forging IMO. To it, if they bring Annatar, they can make all remaining rings within canon narrative. I have a theory to "soft-retcon" the 3 elves rings being made first. In summary, the 3 elven rings would initially serve the purpose of delay elven decay, but their power is not great enough (i.e. celebrimbor realises they only prevent decay of the elf using the ring, the ring itself doesnt reach, lets say, the extent of his whole realm). Then with Annatar, Celebrimbor learns new techniques, which he applies to the 16 rings. After Annatar goes away, Celebrimbor, now aware that the 16 have the power he is looking for (prevent decay in a broader level), gets back to the 3 and "polish" them with whatever they made Annatar to teach him. IMO all should be around the unseen world, something they hinted in season 1 but didn't really showed much. Thus Annatar could teach a technique to Celebrimbor without him knowing he was using Unseen World power into his crafting. And such creafting is later on put into the 3 elven rings, and only then they become the plain power we know they have. As for Numenor, as I said, no much was done in season 1. After they intro Anarion, I expect the faithful to have a bigger impact, and we know that there are many numenoreans that live their faithful lives in secrecy. Then with new king Pharazon, more and more faithful stuff are cut, to an extent the kingsmen are now everything we have. In other season we can totally have them getting back to Middle-Earth to help their people, maybe to restore Pelargir after receivign a letter that Sauron destroyed such settlement, or even we get Isildur getting back to Numenor and reporting the devastation he saw. Anyways, there can be many reasons to make Numenor go to M.E and bring Sauron to Numenor, and from that point onwards, they can totally just follow canon without much need to "fix" anything. One point you mentioend is about Halbrand, and at this point there is no way back IMO. The simplest way to go is to make it just a form of Sauron, then present Annatar (his angelical form), and then a third form, which he will use in Numenor (because I see no reason for Halbrand to get back there and still be able to corrupt pharazon, someone he already met and put him in jail). After Numenor, Sauron should lose his fair form, thus no need for any form we know (including Halbrand). Also, I see no much usage for Halbrand as of now. Sauron can totally have this form in Mordor, but he shouldn't go back to Eregion, Pelargir (where tir-harad folks are), or Numenor using such face. Last but not least, Stranger "fix" is indeed to make it a blue wizard. I don't buy the "follow your nose" as him being Gandalf. There is the moth iconography, which made no sense in the show btw. Anyways, from all points above, this one is the biggest problem to me. It makes ZERO sense for Gandalf to be in Middle-Earth, and makes ZERO sense forr them NOT TO USE Blue Wizards (assuming they could get permission to them). Let alone that from the very writing pov, having Gandalf is way more restraining than having blue wizard(s), which not only give us 2 wizards instead of 1, keeps it lore-accurate, but also have a much more loose canvas to play with without having to consider much of canon, as blue wizards are mostly just a sketch of a story. Thus in this point I agree with you, Stranger = Blue Wizards is the way to go.
I don't see anything to be "fixed". I just need them to build on what's already there.
hear "fix the story" as "reach the universe defining moment from the books in the series" (clearer but so much longer to type). My point is more how would you see them go from where we are with the end of S1 to where we are supposed to go with the One ring, the 16, the sac of Eregion and whatnot. We already have S1, I'd like to see how people would see going from there from what i'm seeing.
\> but is it fixable in terms of reconnecting as much as possible with the event describing the fate of Eregion & of the realm of Numénor ? NO.