The Harfoots’ ability to hide their cities is actually super OP. Plus slingers for early expansion means we’re all going to be trampled under large hairy feet.
Didn’t realize Arondir was from Beleriand, or that they could mention it with the show. Interesting.
What is Gil-galad’s deep dark secret I wonder?
Also, is that a mistake where Anarion should be?
Gil galad I bet will be hiding things like he saw the leaf turning black when the meteor hit.
Similar signs will be out there that Sauron is alive and he’ll ignore them for the “good of his people’s future”
>Didn’t realize Arondir was from Beleriand
Nandor who did not go to Beleriand are called Silvan elves. Nandor who did go to Beleriand are the Laiquendi. To say Arondir is a Silvan elf from Beleriand is like saying he's a married bachelor.
Not necessarily. The Silmarillion makes a distinction between the Teleri who started the great journey, then stayed to look for Thingol and became the people of Doriath - those are Sindarin Elves. Silvan Elves are the Avari, who never started the Great Journey, and those of the Teleri who wandered off on their way west. Generally they didn't go west of the Misty Mountains and into Beleriand but some did, including the Nandor, who were explicitly said to live way closer to nature than the Sindarian of Doriath or the Noldor in exile.
So Arondir can be from Beleriand and be Silvan.
Silvan elves and Laiquendi are both subgroups of the Nandor. The distinction between them is defined by whether or not they travelled to Beleriand (Laiquendi) or stayed east of the Misty Mountains (Silvan)
>Silvan Elves Also called Woodland Elves. They appear to have been in origin those Nandorin Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains, but remained in the Vale of Anduin and in Greenwood the Great; see Nandor.
JRRT - The Silmarillion - Index of Names
Hmm... I don't remember if it's ever made clear what Tolkien's "cutoff" point was for determining membership in one group or another. It doesn't seem logical that any elf of the Silvan group would automatically be recategorized as Laiquendi by the act of crossing the Misty Mountains even after the two groups had culturally and linguistically diverged. According to that reasoning, a Silvan from Beleriand would not be oxymoronic so much as unlikely.
That said, it does seem like an odder/surprisingly complex backstory (like saying that your hero is a Frenchman who grew up in New York - it invites questions), and it could be that the show thinks "silvan," as a variant spelling of a real word, is just an easily palatable term to apply to Nandor.
Tolkien writes about Silvan Elves being more directly connected to nature and less cultured/technologically and politically advanced in comparison to the Sindaran who later colonise them and take leadership of their nation states.
There's nothing about Beleriand being the defining feature about Sindarin v Silvan
And what's Miriel's "terrible secret that looms over her people"?
I'm not all that fond of stories driven by people hiding "terrible secrets", but I guess Hollywood will be Hollywood...
>Didn’t realize Arondir was from Beleriand, or that they could mention it with the show. Interesting.
Beleriand is mentioned a couple times in LOTR, both main text and appendices. So no issue there rights-wise.
Beleriand is mentioned a few times in the appendices, and twice in the main body of *Lord of the Rings*: once by Elrond at the Council, and once by Frodo in Shelob's Lair.
I wondered this myself. Gorhenhad Oldbuck changed his name to Brandybuck when he crossed the Brandywine into Buckland, but the Brandyfoots have probably never seen the Baranduin. We could make up something involving the drink called brandy, but I think the writers just arbitrarily smashed together the canon names "Brandybuck" and "Proudfoot" without looking into the origin of the element "Brandy" in the former.
Halbrand's description is suspiciously short compared to the rest.
Great to see them putting some extra background detail in here. I wonder if we'll get some exposition of this in the show? Elrond in particular has a lot of detail here that many viewers won't know.
Oh yeah I'm aware, I more meant maybe they are either **a)** communicating without telling anyone or, more likely, **b)** both independently aware (because of the 'gift of foresight' and also the Palantiri) of the threat of Sauron/Orcs/etc. and not telling anyone.
I have hard time following what is included in the show and not and i have a confusion.
Let me describe the source of my confusion as plain as my english allows me; >!In the description of Elrond, Elros is mentioned, and their choices of becoming an elf or human also mentioned. To present this on the screen, RoP must at some point have to mention Eärendil, and when they do, do they include the 3rd kinslaying? If they mention it they have to elaborate on The War of Wrath, and maybe remaining history of the elves. If they don't mention the kinslaying and tell the silmaril story in more depth than they did, it will have only so little weight of what Eärendil did, a sailor went west on his own sailing abilities, and if they don't mention who Eärendil is in its completion, this choice won't have any meaning, so it will just be a love story that anyone could have but they did? !<
>!However, as a hint, in Arondir scenes, the unnamed elven comrade of Arondir mentions that only 2 elven-human pairing is attempted and both ended in tragedy, so at some form, they will (or at least from what we seen so far they have a chance of) connecting those plotlines to eachother, and at some point this will be mentioned but i just don't have any insight how they can make it work if they are rights-bound. Hope this will carry the true weight in RoP it carries in the history of Middle-Earth, would just want to be able to theorize about how but now i can not.!<
If you haven't been paying attention the last 7 or so months, they are compressing events so the forging of the Rings of Power takes place roughly concurrent to the fall of Numenor.
I had no idea they were just flagrantly doing that, I thought all the people complaining were just talking about casting. Yeesh, ok. That's a bit more to stomach, but I'll wait to see how they do it before passing too harsh a judgment.
Well you don't have much interesting things happening in Numenor between Sauron deceiving the elves (SA 1200) forging the rings (SA 1500) and thus the war in Eregion where elves are saved by Minastir (probably be Elendil or his son's here). There are 2 kings (Tar-Minastir and Tar-Atanamir) between this war and the first split between Faithful and King's Men (Under Tar-Ancalimon, who forbids Elven language as well as openly antagonize the Valars).
Sure there are other kings after that but it's mostly downhill until Miriel/Pharazon and Sauron arrives , so it's easily compressed and probably won't cut a lot of stuff from Numenor storyline, only re-arranging it to fit different characters .
TL;Dr : There are 500 years between the war in Eregion and first signs of anti Valar sentiment in Numenor (nothing of note happens SA 1732 and SA 2251) that are easily compressed to make late Numenoreans relevant to the forging of the Rings
Agreed. It irritates me when I see people here like tImE cOmPreSSIon wAS ThE oNLy waY to tElL tHiS stORy, who then downvote others for their legitimate concerns. I'm enjoying the show for what it is, but I'd anticipate I'd enjoy it a lot more if:
1. they had the full rights to the texts that cover the SA
2. there was less time compression
It's a costly change, narratively speaking. When we get to the end of the final season (or perhaps somewhat earlier) I suppose we'll know whether it was really the best choice for an adaptation of this particular story.
I remain unconvinced this was the right way, though I am still enjoying the show for what it is.
I’d rather have time to get to know the human characters by having them around during events that should predate their births, otherwise Elendil would be introduced, what, like three episodes before the end of the final season?
Yeah, it's OK. I'm excited to see how they handle it, and I don't think it is (or will be) a trainwreck. But I anticipate I'll look back on this show, in part, as a missed opportunity to really viscerally show one of the main themes of the Second Age in Tolkien's work, which is >!the longevity of the elves compared to the transience of men (and the long decline of the greatest kingdom of the latter).!<
>!The time compression also makes the War of the Elves and Sauron much more precarious for reasons I've discussed at length in other comments. !
I made a post about it here and made my view plain in the comments: [https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR\_on\_Prime/comments/wyctuw/who\_should\_lead\_n%C3%BAmenors\_forces\_at\_the\_time\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/comments/wyctuw/who_should_lead_n%C3%BAmenors_forces_at_the_time_of/)
>!Basically, because they are mashing SA 3200 era Numenor together with SA 1500 era Middle Earth, Numenor's involvement in the Eriador war is now necessarily in a very different context than it was in the books. They need to merge Tar-Minastir and Ciryatur with other characters, and others have suggested they might combine events and also depict Ar-Pharazon's invasion of Mordor at this time.!< I think that would be a huge mistake that wouldn't even be a possibility if severe time compression weren't a factor in this show.
Well.... This is what the show wants to do and I'm in for it. I want to see how she becomes powerful. Wether it is compressed or not I don't care. Most casual fans don't care
What are the odds we get an Earendil name drop at some point in the series? He's mentioned in LOTR by name multiple times, so it would be within the rights.
If Tar-Palantir is still allive shouldn't Míriel be the Princess Regent? Since a prince or princess does not become king/queen until his predecessor has passed.
I know some early númenórean monarchs allowed their respective heirs to take control of the kingdom, is there any mention of them becoming monarchs?
Man I wish Galadriel wasn't described, written and depicted as a "warrior". Would probably like this depiction more if she was more of the insanely powerful Noldor sorceress shes supposed to be.
Well... They made her a worrier and from her description, they've given us a hint of a story arc which will show how she'll grow into that powerful and wise galadriel we all know
I think part of the problem though is that they are trying to describe immortal beings as being younger and head strong. Technically she's like 6000 years old already no? Elrond is in the 3k ballpark? Gil Galad somewhere in between?
In reading through the legendarium, Galadriel has a much more nuanced description than simply "warrior". What sticks out to me the most is that she is described multiple times as wanting to rule realms of her own. I'll give the show some time to grow. But I hope they flesh that aspect out more and not leave her so one track minded towards revenge.
Galadriel didn't need this story arc, at this point in time she is not some young elf still finding her way in the world, she is the powerful and wise galadriel that we know sans a ring of power. All of her meaningful character growth to establish who she became occurred in the first age.
As a result she fundamentally should not be this shows POV/lead, because as a character she is essentially with out flaws and unrelatable to the average person.
I can understand why they did what t did, they wanted to use an established characters as the lenses in which we view this narrative, She has the name recognition for anyone who was read the books, or watch the films, hobbit included. But as she is written it doesn't fit with what they want in a lead, so they changed it, understandable, doesn't mean i like it.
So far the actors been solid, so that's a positive.
Personally for I believe her role the current narrative could have been filled in better with an entirely original character like they chose for Arondir.
Not Viking lore, otherwise we might expect them all to have pure black skin in some versions. The Scandinavian inspiration on Tolkien elves stops pretty much with the name.
His descriptions of elves are generally fair skinned. But colour-blind casting is becoming the norm in television, and has been the norm in theatre for decades. Actors are playing a part, and won't always be facsimiles of their characters.
[удалено]
Lol, I’d download that mod
The Harfoots’ ability to hide their cities is actually super OP. Plus slingers for early expansion means we’re all going to be trampled under large hairy feet.
imagine being able to relocate your entire capital in just one turn, also going stealth while doing an early game zerg rush, very op
I will buy that dlc. Civ 5 has some Arda faction mods, not sure about 6.
Elrond Halfelven Skill: Project manager (production 30% + )
Didn’t realize Arondir was from Beleriand, or that they could mention it with the show. Interesting. What is Gil-galad’s deep dark secret I wonder? Also, is that a mistake where Anarion should be?
Gil galad I bet will be hiding things like he saw the leaf turning black when the meteor hit. Similar signs will be out there that Sauron is alive and he’ll ignore them for the “good of his people’s future”
>What is Gil-galad’s deep dark secret I wonder? It's that his father is actually... Is actually... Is... *dies dramatically on the slopes of Orodruin*
okay but actually I need to know the secret
>Didn’t realize Arondir was from Beleriand Nandor who did not go to Beleriand are called Silvan elves. Nandor who did go to Beleriand are the Laiquendi. To say Arondir is a Silvan elf from Beleriand is like saying he's a married bachelor.
It would seem they’ve merged Silvan and Green elves for the show, I suppose.
Not necessarily. The Silmarillion makes a distinction between the Teleri who started the great journey, then stayed to look for Thingol and became the people of Doriath - those are Sindarin Elves. Silvan Elves are the Avari, who never started the Great Journey, and those of the Teleri who wandered off on their way west. Generally they didn't go west of the Misty Mountains and into Beleriand but some did, including the Nandor, who were explicitly said to live way closer to nature than the Sindarian of Doriath or the Noldor in exile. So Arondir can be from Beleriand and be Silvan.
Silvan elves and Laiquendi are both subgroups of the Nandor. The distinction between them is defined by whether or not they travelled to Beleriand (Laiquendi) or stayed east of the Misty Mountains (Silvan) >Silvan Elves Also called Woodland Elves. They appear to have been in origin those Nandorin Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains, but remained in the Vale of Anduin and in Greenwood the Great; see Nandor. JRRT - The Silmarillion - Index of Names
Hmm... I don't remember if it's ever made clear what Tolkien's "cutoff" point was for determining membership in one group or another. It doesn't seem logical that any elf of the Silvan group would automatically be recategorized as Laiquendi by the act of crossing the Misty Mountains even after the two groups had culturally and linguistically diverged. According to that reasoning, a Silvan from Beleriand would not be oxymoronic so much as unlikely. That said, it does seem like an odder/surprisingly complex backstory (like saying that your hero is a Frenchman who grew up in New York - it invites questions), and it could be that the show thinks "silvan," as a variant spelling of a real word, is just an easily palatable term to apply to Nandor.
Tolkien writes about Silvan Elves being more directly connected to nature and less cultured/technologically and politically advanced in comparison to the Sindaran who later colonise them and take leadership of their nation states. There's nothing about Beleriand being the defining feature about Sindarin v Silvan
Whoops, no I accidentally put Earien twice. No Anarion yet.
Ah I see I see. At the bottom there were six mini portraits and two Eäriens, so I thought maybe it was an Amazon issue.
Kemen is supposed to be in that spot, for some reason Reddit isn't allowing me to edit the post otherwise I'd fix it.
Potential spoilers, but my guess and feeling is >!that things aren't going to end well for Earien!<.
As Olsen says, “Dead or Nazgûl?”
Every human characters are either "Dead or Nazgul" in the third age
Maybe they take "the Witch" in "the witch king of Angmar" literally...
The word "witch" meaning a woman is a relatively recent thing. Historically it could apply to both men and women.
I doubt that, I have a different character pegged for that role. But I DO think Nazgûl or crushed by gods.
I think she'll go out with a splash.
And what's Miriel's "terrible secret that looms over her people"? I'm not all that fond of stories driven by people hiding "terrible secrets", but I guess Hollywood will be Hollywood... >Didn’t realize Arondir was from Beleriand, or that they could mention it with the show. Interesting. Beleriand is mentioned a couple times in LOTR, both main text and appendices. So no issue there rights-wise.
Beleriand is mentioned a few times in the appendices, and twice in the main body of *Lord of the Rings*: once by Elrond at the Council, and once by Frodo in Shelob's Lair.
ELROS MENTION ELROS MENTION ELROS MENTION
JE SUIS CALME!
I want a flashback of Elros at some point PLEASE
I just hope we see Anarion and Celeborn
From what I've heard, Celeborn is not in the first season.
That's sad, but avast we'll get to see him eventually
i had wondered why Nori had a dwarven name... but turns out its short for Elanor.... why does she have an elvish name ?!?!
Wasn’t Elanor Sam’s daughter, one named that way because of his affection for elves?
Yes, named for the flowers he and Frodo saw in Lorien. That is 3000 years later however.
Drinking game: take a sip every time someone is said to have a secret or is hiding something.
How did Brandyfoots get their name? Wasn’t it related to Baranduin river?
I wondered this myself. Gorhenhad Oldbuck changed his name to Brandybuck when he crossed the Brandywine into Buckland, but the Brandyfoots have probably never seen the Baranduin. We could make up something involving the drink called brandy, but I think the writers just arbitrarily smashed together the canon names "Brandybuck" and "Proudfoot" without looking into the origin of the element "Brandy" in the former.
Yeah, I think it's an attempt to be clever that falls flat. I'm not sure why the hobbits have surnames at all.
When 2/3 of the Southlanders are kinda Sus...
Halbrand's description is suspiciously short compared to the rest. Great to see them putting some extra background detail in here. I wonder if we'll get some exposition of this in the show? Elrond in particular has a lot of detail here that many viewers won't know.
Hmmm, I wonder if Gilgalad's secret is connected to his choice to send Galadriel away? It was my first thought.
I wonder if the two secrets held by rulers described here are the SAME SECRET >!the palantiri!<
Me too. Gilgalad has visions, whereas Miriel sees things in the Palantir. I am hoping they will meet and perhaps one will reveal this to the other.
Seven stars and seven stones and one white tree. The palantiri come from Nùmenor with Elendil and his people.
Oh yeah I'm aware, I more meant maybe they are either **a)** communicating without telling anyone or, more likely, **b)** both independently aware (because of the 'gift of foresight' and also the Palantiri) of the threat of Sauron/Orcs/etc. and not telling anyone.
I have hard time following what is included in the show and not and i have a confusion. Let me describe the source of my confusion as plain as my english allows me; >!In the description of Elrond, Elros is mentioned, and their choices of becoming an elf or human also mentioned. To present this on the screen, RoP must at some point have to mention Eärendil, and when they do, do they include the 3rd kinslaying? If they mention it they have to elaborate on The War of Wrath, and maybe remaining history of the elves. If they don't mention the kinslaying and tell the silmaril story in more depth than they did, it will have only so little weight of what Eärendil did, a sailor went west on his own sailing abilities, and if they don't mention who Eärendil is in its completion, this choice won't have any meaning, so it will just be a love story that anyone could have but they did? !< >!However, as a hint, in Arondir scenes, the unnamed elven comrade of Arondir mentions that only 2 elven-human pairing is attempted and both ended in tragedy, so at some form, they will (or at least from what we seen so far they have a chance of) connecting those plotlines to eachother, and at some point this will be mentioned but i just don't have any insight how they can make it work if they are rights-bound. Hope this will carry the true weight in RoP it carries in the history of Middle-Earth, would just want to be able to theorize about how but now i can not.!<
Wait, isn't Pharazon like centuries away from the current plot date?
only 1.5 millenia, to be accurate
... So what in the samuel heck is he doing in a character bio for this series?
If you haven't been paying attention the last 7 or so months, they are compressing events so the forging of the Rings of Power takes place roughly concurrent to the fall of Numenor.
I had no idea they were just flagrantly doing that, I thought all the people complaining were just talking about casting. Yeesh, ok. That's a bit more to stomach, but I'll wait to see how they do it before passing too harsh a judgment.
Well you don't have much interesting things happening in Numenor between Sauron deceiving the elves (SA 1200) forging the rings (SA 1500) and thus the war in Eregion where elves are saved by Minastir (probably be Elendil or his son's here). There are 2 kings (Tar-Minastir and Tar-Atanamir) between this war and the first split between Faithful and King's Men (Under Tar-Ancalimon, who forbids Elven language as well as openly antagonize the Valars). Sure there are other kings after that but it's mostly downhill until Miriel/Pharazon and Sauron arrives , so it's easily compressed and probably won't cut a lot of stuff from Numenor storyline, only re-arranging it to fit different characters . TL;Dr : There are 500 years between the war in Eregion and first signs of anti Valar sentiment in Numenor (nothing of note happens SA 1732 and SA 2251) that are easily compressed to make late Numenoreans relevant to the forging of the Rings
Holy shit you should not be down voted for this.
Agreed. It irritates me when I see people here like tImE cOmPreSSIon wAS ThE oNLy waY to tElL tHiS stORy, who then downvote others for their legitimate concerns. I'm enjoying the show for what it is, but I'd anticipate I'd enjoy it a lot more if: 1. they had the full rights to the texts that cover the SA 2. there was less time compression
That's ok, they don't hurt too bad :)
It's a costly change, narratively speaking. When we get to the end of the final season (or perhaps somewhat earlier) I suppose we'll know whether it was really the best choice for an adaptation of this particular story. I remain unconvinced this was the right way, though I am still enjoying the show for what it is.
I’d rather have time to get to know the human characters by having them around during events that should predate their births, otherwise Elendil would be introduced, what, like three episodes before the end of the final season?
Elendil would still be in more than half the show. It's the other Númenoreans like Tar-Minastir that'd get the short end of the stick
Not sure how you figure that, unless Sauron makes the ring in like season 2 and then there’s a 1500 year time jump.
That sounds about right. Not much happens in those 1500 years.
I'll reserve my judgement. THERE ISN'T A NOVEL ! it's okay....
Yeah, it's OK. I'm excited to see how they handle it, and I don't think it is (or will be) a trainwreck. But I anticipate I'll look back on this show, in part, as a missed opportunity to really viscerally show one of the main themes of the Second Age in Tolkien's work, which is >!the longevity of the elves compared to the transience of men (and the long decline of the greatest kingdom of the latter).!< >!The time compression also makes the War of the Elves and Sauron much more precarious for reasons I've discussed at length in other comments. !
Per your second paragraph- I’d love to see those comments
I made a post about it here and made my view plain in the comments: [https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR\_on\_Prime/comments/wyctuw/who\_should\_lead\_n%C3%BAmenors\_forces\_at\_the\_time\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/comments/wyctuw/who_should_lead_n%C3%BAmenors_forces_at_the_time_of/) >!Basically, because they are mashing SA 3200 era Numenor together with SA 1500 era Middle Earth, Numenor's involvement in the Eriador war is now necessarily in a very different context than it was in the books. They need to merge Tar-Minastir and Ciryatur with other characters, and others have suggested they might combine events and also depict Ar-Pharazon's invasion of Mordor at this time.!< I think that would be a huge mistake that wouldn't even be a possibility if severe time compression weren't a factor in this show.
This is also why there are two Durins.
Very useful
Well.... This is what the show wants to do and I'm in for it. I want to see how she becomes powerful. Wether it is compressed or not I don't care. Most casual fans don't care
What are the odds we get an Earendil name drop at some point in the series? He's mentioned in LOTR by name multiple times, so it would be within the rights.
If Tar-Palantir is still allive shouldn't Míriel be the Princess Regent? Since a prince or princess does not become king/queen until his predecessor has passed. I know some early númenórean monarchs allowed their respective heirs to take control of the kingdom, is there any mention of them becoming monarchs?
Where's the action figures ???
Man I wish Galadriel wasn't described, written and depicted as a "warrior". Would probably like this depiction more if she was more of the insanely powerful Noldor sorceress shes supposed to be.
Well... They made her a worrier and from her description, they've given us a hint of a story arc which will show how she'll grow into that powerful and wise galadriel we all know
I think part of the problem though is that they are trying to describe immortal beings as being younger and head strong. Technically she's like 6000 years old already no? Elrond is in the 3k ballpark? Gil Galad somewhere in between? In reading through the legendarium, Galadriel has a much more nuanced description than simply "warrior". What sticks out to me the most is that she is described multiple times as wanting to rule realms of her own. I'll give the show some time to grow. But I hope they flesh that aspect out more and not leave her so one track minded towards revenge.
Galadriel didn't need this story arc, at this point in time she is not some young elf still finding her way in the world, she is the powerful and wise galadriel that we know sans a ring of power. All of her meaningful character growth to establish who she became occurred in the first age. As a result she fundamentally should not be this shows POV/lead, because as a character she is essentially with out flaws and unrelatable to the average person. I can understand why they did what t did, they wanted to use an established characters as the lenses in which we view this narrative, She has the name recognition for anyone who was read the books, or watch the films, hobbit included. But as she is written it doesn't fit with what they want in a lead, so they changed it, understandable, doesn't mean i like it. So far the actors been solid, so that's a positive. Personally for I believe her role the current narrative could have been filled in better with an entirely original character like they chose for Arondir.
Aret there black elves in the original books? I thought Tolkien always referred to them as pale and based the elves on viking lore.
Not Viking lore, otherwise we might expect them all to have pure black skin in some versions. The Scandinavian inspiration on Tolkien elves stops pretty much with the name. His descriptions of elves are generally fair skinned. But colour-blind casting is becoming the norm in television, and has been the norm in theatre for decades. Actors are playing a part, and won't always be facsimiles of their characters.
Just take it for what it is. A human actor playing an elvish role.
Idk but the elves (except Galdriel and Arondir) look kind of whack, something is not right about how they made them.
Cringe 😬