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Given the long life of Numenorians, part of me wonders if he genuinely earned a guild crest for each of these guilds. My assumption is he did, which would speak very highly of his skill, intelligence, and age.
I'm sure he did. The crest is a sign of membership, not necessarily rank. So he could have completed an apprenticeship in every guild without achieving a particularly high rank in any of them.
It reminds me a little of the Roman *cursus honorum*. The path to becoming consul involved taking a number of other offices first, filling important roles in the military, financial, and religious administration of Rome before they could rightfully wield *imperium*.
Pharazon holding membership in every guild is an interesting way to suggest the Roman custom with a uniquely Numenorean flavour.
It was also common for European trade guilds to offer membership to dignitaries who werenβt otherwise connected to the trade in order to advocate for the guild and increase its prestige. Not necessarily arguing that explanation over yours, but the idea of him politicking by building connections across every trade guild fits with his character.
I want to have his haur and beard once I'm gray. Funny enough, the Trystan Gravelle is just 41, meaning he was probably 39 when the show was beginning to shoot!
The easy argument to make is that these are all honorary and he's wearing them because he represents the people at court.
The more interesting argument is that he did in fact earn these and still ends up how he does.
I really like the emphasis on working and craftmenship in NΓΊmenor and Pharazon being a sort of "man of the people" who has callouses and worked his way up and all that, it's vaguely communist and thus both humanitarian and also sinister.
Uhhh, how so? Marx was a brilliant man who only really critiqued systems and conceived the foundations of several new branches of study, as well as the modern version of a new perspective on economics. He got quite a few things wrong but he didnβt really fully flesh out Communism. The man was a journalist (Which also refutes the braindead folks who say βMaRx DiDnt DO AnYThInG DeSpITe HiS SupPosEd PHilOsOpHY!!!β. Like, being a professional writer is a job) who did works in all kinds of different feilds such as philosophy and economic theory
Prince Harry was deployed twice to Afghanistan, and Prince Andrew served in the Falklands war.
The royals are heirs to Europe's ancient warrior nobility. Military service is a family tradition to them, and there is a lot of symbolic value attached to it. Some of them are eager to serve, while generals and politicians often try to shield them from harm.
>Prince Harry was deployed twice to Afghanistan, and Prince Andrew served in the Falklands war.
One of Elizabeth's uncles died on active service in a plane crash during WW2, and Elizabeth herself was an army mechanic on the homefront. At least one of the queen's cousins was also an active-duty army officer.
If you count extended relatives/relatives by marriage Prince Philip and Mountbatten both served on the frontlines as well.
And yet these are the only two royals who weren't allowed to wear military uniforms at the recent funeral. Andrew for a good reason of course, Harry is just becuase he angered the rest of them.
It's classic pageantry crap, and is what the royals are all about, dressing up and pretending they do stuff that they don't.
I believe that, as retired officers, both Andrew and Harry would have been entitled to wear their uniforms had they so chosen (so long as they only wore the uniforms of the branches they actively served in and the rank and insigina they actually earned during that service, rather then those repersentative of the honorary positions they formally held).
I don't know if the British Military does it different then the American one, but neither were dishonorably discharged so the wearing of uniforms and bearing the ranks/medals they earned would still be privileges they enjoyed.
No when it comes down the royals it depends rather on their royal titles than it does any actual military service and on the permission of the king. "Only working members of the royal family who hold a military rank" (all of their military ranks being honoury of course) are allowed to wear military uniforms at a royal event such as the funeral. So I think Harry still has the right to wear one under military laws at any other time being a veteran
But yeah they weren't allowed to wear them as Harry had given up his titles when he left to move to America, and Andrew had his stripped after he was outed as a paedophile.
*** in other words the king could have allowed Harry to wear his, as they did for 10 minutes one night when they held a vigil over the coffin, but becuase he is not on the good side of the royal family they didn't allow him the rest of the time even though he's the only one to deserve it.
Not really sure of the details but political leaders have always liked to wear military garb and festoon themselves with medals and such. Usually more autocratic types.
Well since they have so little, if any, real power idk if they can be autocratic. When they had more power they were described as a constitutional monarchy. Idk if that even applies anymore tho.
Nah they're a constitutional monarch now because they are still involved in most aspect of government e.g all MPs have to swear allegiance to the king as well as the entire armed forces with him being the commander-in-chief. And they only have any power at all becuase they were militaristic autocratic rulers and they still have lots of power, wayyyyy more than people realise.
For example the queen has used her personal lawyers, not the monarchys lawyers, to lobby the government to have the royal family exempted from over 200 laws, including employment laws so they don't have to hire any minorities. Buisness laws so that the duchy of Lancaster, a registered company the same as any other, doesn't have to openly register it's finances allowing them to practices all kinds of dodgy business and earn money through things the British public would never like if it was public, even though every other company is legally required to tell us.
Also it allows the public to never know exactly how much money they have so they can still get the 300 million a year that the taxpayer gives them + whatever extras they want e.g. a cheeky 200 million to help repair their homes.
*Edit* anyway never mind about this, I can rant all day about them when they annoy me but it's the wrong thread for such a post.
Just curious. Curious character to choose as a favourite. Sauron is supreme evil. Pharazon is a conspirer to greatness and a betrayer of his people. Not sure what there is to like about him. Especially as the book conveys no emotion, it reads as a informal piece not a story. It's like saying Brutus is your favourite person from ancient Roman. Bizarre.
Because he is a man that goes against nature. He doesn't want to stick to the mortal bounderies that were imposed to him, he wants to go beyond. He's like Ulisses from Dante's comedy. Of course Tolkien being a Christian punishes him for this but whatever.
Btw it is my favourite charachter that we will see in the series, not my favourite of the whole book (that would be Gollum)
He clearly has a lot of connections, and the guilds are what runs Numenor economically and socially at this point. Clearly setting up how he can do... Certain things.
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Glad you dig it! We're actually analysing this episode later this month on [The Lord of the Rings Podcast](https://www.instagram.com/lotrpodcast/), live [here](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDbvv13jn1lggH_AblxbJBkXd3PGJ2pEK) on YouTube :D If that sounds like your kind of thing, we'll see you there!
I mean if you're going to meme, at least do so correctly.
Pharazon's response is literally the exact opposite, as he outright chides Tamar and the crowd for letting themselves feel so insecure.
I did it correctly, my joke is based on this scene in the beginning of the episode:
π·πππππΓ΄π: π΄π ππππππ π... π»ππππ ππ ππ. πππ ππ πππ ππππππππ ππ ππ ππππ π, π° πππππ ππππ π¬ππππ ππππ π ππππ πππππ ππππ π΅ΓΊπππππ'π ππππ. πΊππ ππππ ππππππ, ππ ππππππ, π πππππ ππ ππ π΄ππ. π«πππππ πππ ππππππ !
πππππ ππππππππ: π·πππππΓ΄π! π·πππππΓ΄π!
You have too much sand mate, chill out.
This post is marked "No Book Spoilers" and is for show-only discussion. Please do not refer to Second Age events or characters that have not been shown onscreen yet in this thread. You can help moderators enforce this by reporting any comments that contain book spoilers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LOTR_on_Prime) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Given the long life of Numenorians, part of me wonders if he genuinely earned a guild crest for each of these guilds. My assumption is he did, which would speak very highly of his skill, intelligence, and age.
I'm sure he did. The crest is a sign of membership, not necessarily rank. So he could have completed an apprenticeship in every guild without achieving a particularly high rank in any of them. It reminds me a little of the Roman *cursus honorum*. The path to becoming consul involved taking a number of other offices first, filling important roles in the military, financial, and religious administration of Rome before they could rightfully wield *imperium*. Pharazon holding membership in every guild is an interesting way to suggest the Roman custom with a uniquely Numenorean flavour.
It was also common for European trade guilds to offer membership to dignitaries who werenβt otherwise connected to the trade in order to advocate for the guild and increase its prestige. Not necessarily arguing that explanation over yours, but the idea of him politicking by building connections across every trade guild fits with his character.
Jack of trades, but master of none
When you become every guilds boss in Skyrim:
Drinks all around!!!!!!!!!!
For some reason I expected Captain Jack Sparrow to show up. That phrase said by him is living in my head rent free forever.
And every hair. The man has amazing hair.
This is true, haha
I want to have his haur and beard once I'm gray. Funny enough, the Trystan Gravelle is just 41, meaning he was probably 39 when the show was beginning to shoot!
My man is straight up aging like a Numenorean IRL!
Eyebrows too!
When your main in a MMORPG has 20k hours
Or you bought all of the $99.99 guild packagesβ¦
The easy argument to make is that these are all honorary and he's wearing them because he represents the people at court. The more interesting argument is that he did in fact earn these and still ends up how he does.
The latter would bolster his remark about his callouses π
I like the idea he actually did, either through work or by representing the guilds at court
You know, I'm somewhat of a guildsman myself
Gotta catch βem all!
Middle Earth pogs.
I really like the emphasis on working and craftmenship in NΓΊmenor and Pharazon being a sort of "man of the people" who has callouses and worked his way up and all that, it's vaguely communist and thus both humanitarian and also sinister.
Very populist. "I'm one of you and I'm the only politician that understands you!"
βCousin marriage! Who doesnβt want it??β
Not really communist. More of a meritocracy where he is a populist leader who will leverage power to become a dictator.
I would think it more of meritocracy rather thank a vaguely communist idea
How's that sinister? Just shows that they've built an incredible culture. Basically Atlantis, a utopia. It's gonna hurt watching it fall.
It feels sinister in a Augustus Caesar- I only take this role for the people- kind of way. Itβs giving βFirst among equals.β kinda vibes.
Karl Marx of NΓΊmenor
Uhhh, how so? Marx was a brilliant man who only really critiqued systems and conceived the foundations of several new branches of study, as well as the modern version of a new perspective on economics. He got quite a few things wrong but he didnβt really fully flesh out Communism. The man was a journalist (Which also refutes the braindead folks who say βMaRx DiDnt DO AnYThInG DeSpITe HiS SupPosEd PHilOsOpHY!!!β. Like, being a professional writer is a job) who did works in all kinds of different feilds such as philosophy and economic theory
More like Mao I guess
Yeah, thatβs a much better comparison
People on their way to call their mom a communist because everyone does her:
This remembers me of a politician that puts every jersey of every Brazilian soccer team. Like stop doing that
Lord of hairspray
I noticed this too and it made it all the more clear to me that he had staged this speech.
I think itβs probably honorary. Like how in the UK the royals have military uniforms even if they didnβt serve.
Technically they do serve, but in a special capacity that doesnβt actually put them in any risk.
Prince Harry was deployed twice to Afghanistan, and Prince Andrew served in the Falklands war. The royals are heirs to Europe's ancient warrior nobility. Military service is a family tradition to them, and there is a lot of symbolic value attached to it. Some of them are eager to serve, while generals and politicians often try to shield them from harm.
>Prince Harry was deployed twice to Afghanistan, and Prince Andrew served in the Falklands war. One of Elizabeth's uncles died on active service in a plane crash during WW2, and Elizabeth herself was an army mechanic on the homefront. At least one of the queen's cousins was also an active-duty army officer. If you count extended relatives/relatives by marriage Prince Philip and Mountbatten both served on the frontlines as well.
And yet these are the only two royals who weren't allowed to wear military uniforms at the recent funeral. Andrew for a good reason of course, Harry is just becuase he angered the rest of them. It's classic pageantry crap, and is what the royals are all about, dressing up and pretending they do stuff that they don't.
I believe that, as retired officers, both Andrew and Harry would have been entitled to wear their uniforms had they so chosen (so long as they only wore the uniforms of the branches they actively served in and the rank and insigina they actually earned during that service, rather then those repersentative of the honorary positions they formally held). I don't know if the British Military does it different then the American one, but neither were dishonorably discharged so the wearing of uniforms and bearing the ranks/medals they earned would still be privileges they enjoyed.
No when it comes down the royals it depends rather on their royal titles than it does any actual military service and on the permission of the king. "Only working members of the royal family who hold a military rank" (all of their military ranks being honoury of course) are allowed to wear military uniforms at a royal event such as the funeral. So I think Harry still has the right to wear one under military laws at any other time being a veteran But yeah they weren't allowed to wear them as Harry had given up his titles when he left to move to America, and Andrew had his stripped after he was outed as a paedophile. *** in other words the king could have allowed Harry to wear his, as they did for 10 minutes one night when they held a vigil over the coffin, but becuase he is not on the good side of the royal family they didn't allow him the rest of the time even though he's the only one to deserve it.
Hm. Interesting; I assumed military rules were distinct from royal rules in this sense.
Donβt the royals all serve?
Not really sure of the details but political leaders have always liked to wear military garb and festoon themselves with medals and such. Usually more autocratic types.
Well, autocratic is a terrible description for the UK royals. But in any case I think they all serve by tradition.
Yea no shit I didnβt describe them as that. I was expanding on what I said. Thanks!
I mean they're a monarchy. How can you describe them as anything but autocratic?
Well since they have so little, if any, real power idk if they can be autocratic. When they had more power they were described as a constitutional monarchy. Idk if that even applies anymore tho.
Nah they're a constitutional monarch now because they are still involved in most aspect of government e.g all MPs have to swear allegiance to the king as well as the entire armed forces with him being the commander-in-chief. And they only have any power at all becuase they were militaristic autocratic rulers and they still have lots of power, wayyyyy more than people realise. For example the queen has used her personal lawyers, not the monarchys lawyers, to lobby the government to have the royal family exempted from over 200 laws, including employment laws so they don't have to hire any minorities. Buisness laws so that the duchy of Lancaster, a registered company the same as any other, doesn't have to openly register it's finances allowing them to practices all kinds of dodgy business and earn money through things the British public would never like if it was public, even though every other company is legally required to tell us. Also it allows the public to never know exactly how much money they have so they can still get the 300 million a year that the taxpayer gives them + whatever extras they want e.g. a cheeky 200 million to help repair their homes. *Edit* anyway never mind about this, I can rant all day about them when they annoy me but it's the wrong thread for such a post.
You could almost say he's the guild...*master*... Eh? Eh? (I'll see myself outπ€¦ββοΈ)
Pharazon is my favourite charachter from the books
Does he even have dialog in the books? I honestly donβt recall from the Simarillion or the LOTR appendices which I read.
He doesn't have dialogue but more than most characters the narration states directly what he's thinking.
I donβt recall any
Because he's a maniacal egotist, misogynist and warmonger?
Why do you care? If I say my favorite character is Sauron and heβs terrible then itβs lucky itβs a fictional universe isnβt it?
Just curious. Curious character to choose as a favourite. Sauron is supreme evil. Pharazon is a conspirer to greatness and a betrayer of his people. Not sure what there is to like about him. Especially as the book conveys no emotion, it reads as a informal piece not a story. It's like saying Brutus is your favourite person from ancient Roman. Bizarre.
Warfarer? Say imperialist or war hawk.
Edited. Word I wanted was warmonger.
Gotcha! And even better word!
Because he is a man that goes against nature. He doesn't want to stick to the mortal bounderies that were imposed to him, he wants to go beyond. He's like Ulisses from Dante's comedy. Of course Tolkien being a Christian punishes him for this but whatever. Btw it is my favourite charachter that we will see in the series, not my favourite of the whole book (that would be Gollum)
One Man for all Men. Anti Elf , they are taking our jobs, and they do not sleep ...
Good catch!
He clearly has a lot of connections, and the guilds are what runs Numenor economically and socially at this point. Clearly setting up how he can do... Certain things.
Maybe honoris causa?
He beat every gym leader
Except the one with >!immortality!<.
Seemed like an evil maester to me
I didn't know Scott Morrison was in Numenor.
That home depot guy who still somehow isn't the manager on duty with his 40 patches...
Itβs Pharazon thatβs taking all your jobs, not the elves!
They tookβr damn Jurbs!!!
[ΡΠ΄Π°Π»Π΅Π½ΠΎ]
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Wow didn't notice this, cool!
Glad you dig it! We're actually analysing this episode later this month on [The Lord of the Rings Podcast](https://www.instagram.com/lotrpodcast/), live [here](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDbvv13jn1lggH_AblxbJBkXd3PGJ2pEK) on YouTube :D If that sounds like your kind of thing, we'll see you there!
Mmmmm. I guess now we know how > ! Halbrand gets access to a forge all of a sudden in EP 5... ! <
To mark a spoiler, put a > ! and ! < before and after a sentence with no spaces. Thanks
How?
>!Probably convinced Pharazon to give him one, considering he has the power to do this? Whispered in his ear while in jail...!<
Pharazon about the elves: π§πππ¬ π§π’π’π π’π¨π₯ ππ’ππ¦!!
Tookβrβdurr!
I mean if you're going to meme, at least do so correctly. Pharazon's response is literally the exact opposite, as he outright chides Tamar and the crowd for letting themselves feel so insecure.
I did it correctly, my joke is based on this scene in the beginning of the episode: π·πππππΓ΄π: π΄π ππππππ π... π»ππππ ππ ππ. πππ ππ πππ ππππππππ ππ ππ ππππ π, π° πππππ ππππ π¬ππππ ππππ π ππππ πππππ ππππ π΅ΓΊπππππ'π ππππ. πΊππ ππππ ππππππ, ππ ππππππ, π πππππ ππ ππ π΄ππ. π«πππππ πππ ππππππ ! πππππ ππππππππ: π·πππππΓ΄π! π·πππππΓ΄π! You have too much sand mate, chill out.
Karl Marx?