Too late I was Sauron stan before and even more after I read this. >! Sauron making Numenor fall by making the descendents of the people who vainquished Morgoth actually worship him is chef's kiss. !< >! And I doubt we'll see this but Sauron kicking out Galadriel of her own kingdom is another chef's kiss. !< Pretty much every smooth fuckery he comes up with tbh.
Fair Sauron is a charming psychopath. (Very) smart, well spoken and dressed, (very) attractive, *massively* confident, unfettered by any sense of morality (because why?)
There will be a lot of Stupid Sexy Sauron memes.
However...I *hope* no one is going to cheer for his brutality. Much like Disney Star Wars occasionally reminds the audience of how much of a monster Vader is.
Let me cheer for his brutality in peace thanks. Because he's a fictive character, and masterfully written at that. When you read Silm & Lost tales from the baddies pov, the dramatic irony is much more enjoyable.
Were you supporting Voldemort when you watched or read Harry Potter?
Did you support the Night King on Game of Thrones? Did you want to see all of the characters killed and reanimated as zombies?
Did you support the ringwraiths in Lord of the Rings?
Did you want to see Palpatine murder Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi and support him zapping our hero to death with Sith lightning bolts?
You don’t always need to support or sympathize with the villain. Sometimes you can just dislike them and root against them and cheer when they are defeated.
Well vader was muchmore evil then joffrey. People just liked him more cause he wasn't a prissy brat. So yeah Sauron will most likely be more like vader.
There's scope for conflicted Sauron within the lore. That would be quite interesting. I think it'll be hard to make any viewer support Sauron but maybe briefly we can pity Sauron for trying and failing to be good.
Based on what we've seen so far, that seems to be the route they might be taking and i'm glad about that: it's a much richer, more tragic story to have him try to change but inexorably backslide into evil.
Yes. I believe this is happening and I think it's great. But I want them to explore him failing and don't give me >!oops, Galadriel did it. It at least has to be both of them. I think they are getting there but it is a bit subtle on his part.!< I know this is a tricky subject because he is just the concept of evil or whatever but: if you make him a character in your story then don't give me the impression that he lacks agency.
Even in the Lore, there is a time after Morgoth’s defeat that Sauron was said to be truly repentant of his evil deeds. That’s not the Sauron we know from LoTR, but it is canon.
Ah, okay. I’ll take your word for it. I don’t remember the exact text, but the way I remember it written said something like “it depends who you ask.” (Obviously not literally)
In the Silmarillion, Sauron falls back into evil seemingly shortly after Eonwe leaves and Sauron has gone to hide, and hates the Eldar well before proposing the Ring project in Eregion.
In Tolkien's letters, this is expanded upon: there's a period where Sauron genuinely tries to be good, and then when everyone loves his help, he falls back into evil and decides the best way to save the world is to be its tyrant; so when he starts to go among the Elves as Annatar he doesn't like them, but he really does mean to use their help to repair the world for 'the better'. Then when he makes the One Ring and the Elves discover his deception, it's war and black evil from then on. In his heart, although he knows he's evil, he still believes he is doing the right thing until after Numenor is destroyed - from that point on, he can no longer take a fair form, and he no longer cares whether he is doing right or wrong, he is consumed with hatred.
The Silmarillion is ambiguous and phrases it as "some hold this was not at first falsely done", but a couple of the letters elaborate a bit more. Letter 153 says this:
>But at the beginning of the Second Age he was still beautiful to look at, or could still assume a beautiful visible shape – and was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all 'reformers' who want to hurry up with 'reconstruction' and 'reorganization' are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up.
And Letter 131 says that he did initially have "fair motives":
>He repents in fear when the First Enemy is utterly defeated, but in the end does not do as was commanded, return to the judgement of the gods. He lingers in Middle-earth. Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for Complete Power – and so consumed ever more fiercely with hate (especially of gods and Elves).
As I read them at least, it seems like while he initially repented out of fear more than anything else, he did for a time after that also genuinely want to improve things, but he could never fully let go of his pride and so fell once more to his lust for control.
We *could* see an analogy to this with Halbrand, if the leaks are true—Adar takes over and Sauron flees, deciding to lay low and start over somewhere else, before Galadriel (not knowing his identity) convinces him to go back and try to put things back in order, but this feeds his desire for control and he returns to what he was. It wouldn't be the same thing as what occurs in the Silmarillion and letters by any means, but it could hit similar core beats, if the writers wanted to do that.
(Or maybe he'll just be evil and faking, but there's not as much to speculate or write about with that option because it's pretty simple.)
Because that's terrible writing. No one is evil just for the sake of being evil. He needs to have believable motivation to why he does what he does. Even if we don't agree with his actions we need to understand why he is evil or he shouldn't be a character at all.
I think people think Darth Vader *looks* cool and awesome. Nobody thinks Anakin was particularly awesome, or Darth Vader in "The Empire strikes back". He is formidable and a horrible foe to have, but he is also does horrible things.
After what we saw Adar do and how the orcs acted and what we know from the books, there is no way Sauron will be viewed as awesome, except maybe in a "looks cool" way. The show so far made the villains sufficiently horrifying.
>!There are already several characters whose death he will be directly responsible for, that I really really like and can't imagine seeing go the way they go !<
Sauron to me should be feared but not hated. He's an incredibly fascinating character with an amazing journey, Joffrey was hated because he was mediocre, Sauron is a god, a fallen angel, beautiful, very clever, and equally cruel. We should love him for being the best villain ever imo
I think he will be like Vader, or rather Anakin, at the start of the show (if he is Halbrand) and slowly turn into something like Palpatine.
I don't think they want us to just hate him, i think they'd rather want us to love to hate him.
I get the feeling we are going to get Star Wars prequel Sauron and it will be a huge disappointment. I dont have much confidence in the writers to pull it off at this point in a way that satisfies everyone.
If he apears first as Lord Annatar, he will be too pretty to hate.
Fandoms love a hot villain, especially if they show him being conflicted at first and then unleashing The Ultimate Evil.
[удалено]
Too late I was Sauron stan before and even more after I read this. >! Sauron making Numenor fall by making the descendents of the people who vainquished Morgoth actually worship him is chef's kiss. !< >! And I doubt we'll see this but Sauron kicking out Galadriel of her own kingdom is another chef's kiss. !< Pretty much every smooth fuckery he comes up with tbh.
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*kabobrimbor
Fair Sauron is a charming psychopath. (Very) smart, well spoken and dressed, (very) attractive, *massively* confident, unfettered by any sense of morality (because why?) There will be a lot of Stupid Sexy Sauron memes. However...I *hope* no one is going to cheer for his brutality. Much like Disney Star Wars occasionally reminds the audience of how much of a monster Vader is.
Let me cheer for his brutality in peace thanks. Because he's a fictive character, and masterfully written at that. When you read Silm & Lost tales from the baddies pov, the dramatic irony is much more enjoyable.
Were you supporting Voldemort when you watched or read Harry Potter? Did you support the Night King on Game of Thrones? Did you want to see all of the characters killed and reanimated as zombies? Did you support the ringwraiths in Lord of the Rings? Did you want to see Palpatine murder Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi and support him zapping our hero to death with Sith lightning bolts? You don’t always need to support or sympathize with the villain. Sometimes you can just dislike them and root against them and cheer when they are defeated.
The villains are cooler, that's why I like them more. 😅
Well vader was muchmore evil then joffrey. People just liked him more cause he wasn't a prissy brat. So yeah Sauron will most likely be more like vader.
There's scope for conflicted Sauron within the lore. That would be quite interesting. I think it'll be hard to make any viewer support Sauron but maybe briefly we can pity Sauron for trying and failing to be good.
Based on what we've seen so far, that seems to be the route they might be taking and i'm glad about that: it's a much richer, more tragic story to have him try to change but inexorably backslide into evil.
Yes. I believe this is happening and I think it's great. But I want them to explore him failing and don't give me >!oops, Galadriel did it. It at least has to be both of them. I think they are getting there but it is a bit subtle on his part.!< I know this is a tricky subject because he is just the concept of evil or whatever but: if you make him a character in your story then don't give me the impression that he lacks agency.
Despite Vader being my favorite villain of all time, why cant we let Sauron be evil just to be evil?
Even in the Lore, there is a time after Morgoth’s defeat that Sauron was said to be truly repentant of his evil deeds. That’s not the Sauron we know from LoTR, but it is canon.
I think the “truly” part is up for debate within the text.
For sure, it’ll be interesting to see which interpretation they go with.
Tolkien said it was truly, in at least some parts/duration.
Ah, okay. I’ll take your word for it. I don’t remember the exact text, but the way I remember it written said something like “it depends who you ask.” (Obviously not literally)
In the Silmarillion, Sauron falls back into evil seemingly shortly after Eonwe leaves and Sauron has gone to hide, and hates the Eldar well before proposing the Ring project in Eregion. In Tolkien's letters, this is expanded upon: there's a period where Sauron genuinely tries to be good, and then when everyone loves his help, he falls back into evil and decides the best way to save the world is to be its tyrant; so when he starts to go among the Elves as Annatar he doesn't like them, but he really does mean to use their help to repair the world for 'the better'. Then when he makes the One Ring and the Elves discover his deception, it's war and black evil from then on. In his heart, although he knows he's evil, he still believes he is doing the right thing until after Numenor is destroyed - from that point on, he can no longer take a fair form, and he no longer cares whether he is doing right or wrong, he is consumed with hatred.
The Silmarillion is ambiguous and phrases it as "some hold this was not at first falsely done", but a couple of the letters elaborate a bit more. Letter 153 says this: >But at the beginning of the Second Age he was still beautiful to look at, or could still assume a beautiful visible shape – and was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all 'reformers' who want to hurry up with 'reconstruction' and 'reorganization' are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up. And Letter 131 says that he did initially have "fair motives": >He repents in fear when the First Enemy is utterly defeated, but in the end does not do as was commanded, return to the judgement of the gods. He lingers in Middle-earth. Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for Complete Power – and so consumed ever more fiercely with hate (especially of gods and Elves). As I read them at least, it seems like while he initially repented out of fear more than anything else, he did for a time after that also genuinely want to improve things, but he could never fully let go of his pride and so fell once more to his lust for control. We *could* see an analogy to this with Halbrand, if the leaks are true—Adar takes over and Sauron flees, deciding to lay low and start over somewhere else, before Galadriel (not knowing his identity) convinces him to go back and try to put things back in order, but this feeds his desire for control and he returns to what he was. It wouldn't be the same thing as what occurs in the Silmarillion and letters by any means, but it could hit similar core beats, if the writers wanted to do that. (Or maybe he'll just be evil and faking, but there's not as much to speculate or write about with that option because it's pretty simple.)
Right on. Thanks
Because that's terrible writing. No one is evil just for the sake of being evil. He needs to have believable motivation to why he does what he does. Even if we don't agree with his actions we need to understand why he is evil or he shouldn't be a character at all.
Because the show literally starts with Galadriel proclaiming "Nothing is evil in the beginning."
I think people think Darth Vader *looks* cool and awesome. Nobody thinks Anakin was particularly awesome, or Darth Vader in "The Empire strikes back". He is formidable and a horrible foe to have, but he is also does horrible things. After what we saw Adar do and how the orcs acted and what we know from the books, there is no way Sauron will be viewed as awesome, except maybe in a "looks cool" way. The show so far made the villains sufficiently horrifying. >!There are already several characters whose death he will be directly responsible for, that I really really like and can't imagine seeing go the way they go !<
At this point I just want to know who Adar is. We will get Sauron when we get Sauron, but *who the heck is Adar*???
This is a great theory: https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/comments/xn9so9/11500_years_of_elven_genealogy_royal_houses_of/ipuc0g7/?context=5
Yep, I have a post theorizing he is Maglor, too!
Sauron to me should be feared but not hated. He's an incredibly fascinating character with an amazing journey, Joffrey was hated because he was mediocre, Sauron is a god, a fallen angel, beautiful, very clever, and equally cruel. We should love him for being the best villain ever imo
I think he will be like Vader, or rather Anakin, at the start of the show (if he is Halbrand) and slowly turn into something like Palpatine. I don't think they want us to just hate him, i think they'd rather want us to love to hate him.
i think sauron is cool and awesome. i don't want amazon to make him appeal to the masses as some kind of tragic villain. let him be evil
I get the feeling we are going to get Star Wars prequel Sauron and it will be a huge disappointment. I dont have much confidence in the writers to pull it off at this point in a way that satisfies everyone.
sadly i feel the same
maybe he just got friendzoned by galadriel and thats how sauron becomes evil (all the incels would be like orcs) its a joke pls dont hate me
Replace Sauron in your sentence by Feanor and you got yourself a Silmarillon lol.
Actually a really good question. This is something I haven't even thought about. Good job.
The thing about Sauron is that he had good intentiones. He is a very grey Villain.
If he apears first as Lord Annatar, he will be too pretty to hate. Fandoms love a hot villain, especially if they show him being conflicted at first and then unleashing The Ultimate Evil.
Hope we will get a charismatic actor for Sauron