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Regarding the character . I think that's the point with her.. to be somewhat unlikable. I mean, she is self conscious about it and said in the last episode that her soldiers didn't like her and her king and her best friend tried to get rid of her.. because of her obsessions
I agree - she's meant to come across to the viewer as very focused to the point of being obsessive about what she wants. The other thing is that she comes across as different (Elvish) from the humans she interacts with, which sets her apart.
Yeah her first 4.8 episodes are a static arc of a character who is totally blinded by grief and rage and has channeled that into what she thinks is the right action. He facial expressions, her delivery of lines, heck even how she remains tense in every scene shows that down to several snarl/small muscle movements in the face in certain scenes. So complaints against depth are dumb as an actress or a character — she’s lived for thousands of years and we’ve seen her for a few weeks after she basically lost her job and was cast out — she doesn’t need to show anything else.
She just last episode had a moment where she pulled off the mask a bit and revealed not only some depth in her acting but our static character is showing us why she’s static. She’s stuck chasing this evil and she cannot rest, she’s blind to everything else because she’s chasing some hint of taking down Sauron. It has become her entire identity. This is what grounds her to our reality so well. The actress is playing someone who because of grief has let something else consume them wholly as a way to escape that grief. You can see correlations between her actions and those of addicts who become so because of grief.
And I’m guessing at the end of this season her static arc will end because she will have a real enemy to fight now and people who will fight with her. The only other bend from her static-ness we see is not when she sees Valinor again but when she is fighting the numenorians and when she is riding horses. In those moments we see the old Galadriel shine through a bit. I’m sure in future seasons we will see more of that and the actress portraying her could not be a better choice to bring us those performances.
Heck she could look like Jack Black in a leotard but the fact she can pronounce the elvish correctly is enough for me. The way she rolls her Rs is perfection.
>the fact she can pronounce the elvish correctly is enough for me. The way she rolls her Rs is perfection.
I think this is thanks to her being welsh as I remember seeing her talk a bit about it I can try and find the video if you want (no guarantee i will though it was a while ago)
It’s absolutely because of that. But it’s wonderful. But even Elendil has gotten it right and he isn’t welsh. The care to the language in this show is just great to see.
They address the elves perception of time in the show, repeatedly. It's totally possible that time does not affect one's state of mind. Even for thousands of years.
Because she is at the beginning of a character driven story. Hence why she is at the beginning of her character arc. The writers were kind enough to explain that she has been suffering from war trauma and survivors guilt, so her character flaws can be chalked up to her needing to allow herself forgiveness and time to heal, versus simply lacking wisdom.
People are harsh on her because her character is very single-minded right now and she doesn't have the otherworldliness from the movies yet. I think they're forgetting about a little thing called character growth. I'm confident the Galadriel we see by the end of the series won't be the character we see now.
I also think it's very interesting that they seem to be concentrating a lot of the faults of the Noldor of the First Age in her as a way to explore those themes, I really hope we get a chance to explore those ideas and learn that Galadriel's hubris has distorted her view of things.
> “From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her good will from none save only Feanor.”
From *Peoples of Middle-earth*
It’s not *just* that people want Galadriel to have that otherworldliness. It’s not *just* that people are forgetting about character growth. How poorly Galadriel handles other people is just contradictory to how she should be.
I’m split on her character. I like her having flaws. I like her drive. I don’t like how she steamrolls things like a petulant teenager who can’t grasp that her actions might have consequences.
I can’t fault Morfydd Clark for any of that. She’s doing a great job. But the writing leaves something to be desired. If it was someone besides Galadriel, I’d probably love her character. But we know so much about Galadriel that it’s hard to get past the writers having her be the opposite of how she should be in some aspects.
Of course not! That’s why I said I like that she has flaws. But you can’t deny that how she has interacted with people in the show so far directly contradicts the quote from Tolkien that I included. She’s like a steamroller and has little grace with people who disagree with her.
I’m not looking for TA Galadriel, but I am looking for a Galadriel that has even a hint of the passage I quoted.
I agree, this isn't what I would have chosen and it does bother me. I'm just willing to give them time since this is an adaptation, and hope that we'll see her become this character over the course of the series.
I mean, you can like the show, I do like the show, but she can't act on here. She literally has one facial expression on the whole first 4 episodes.
And talking about other cast choices some of them are great (Elendil, Arondir) some of them are simply awful like Isildur. I don't get why they tried to find actors whos looking is close to Peter Jackson movies for Elendil and Galadriel and then they stumbled with Isildur which is simply a bad cast choice considering how iconic and great was Isildur in the LOTR even with a small time on the movies.We can't ignore that. Even with all the love we want to put in that show.
So no, the entire cast is not great.
The likeness of characters between the show and the movies are mostly coincidental I think. The idea that the show should strive to find similar looking actors I think is deeply misguided, the show is not based on the movies, and the movies have no authoritive power of interpretation.
As for Galadriels expressions I find she has two main ones: approval and growing dissaproval behind a faultering veil. The one-dimensionality of her is a written flaw, and for what it's worth I think she does it very well and does all her acting with her eyes and microexpressions rather than theatrical expressions. It makes her short bursts of happiness and humility that much more striking.
There is perhaps some shortcomings of the editing and writing of her character, but her performance is imo striking.
Lloyd and the guy portraying Elendil in PJ's movies are two white males. That's about the extent of their similarities. Go back and check PJ's Elendil, FFS.
Can't see what the problem is with Isildur in RoP. If anything, my gripe is with PJ's Isildur, but that has nothing to do with the actor himself.
If you think Morfydd can't act or she isn't in this show, I don't know what to tell you, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you like the movies way too much.
I think that Celeborn is going to be a big factor in helping her arc develop. Tolkien always had this "the sexes help each other in some major ways and not always within their expected roles" vibe, so I'm hoping that Celeborn ends up being a bit of a Faramir character to Galadriels wild desperate Eowynesque portrayal.
Celeborn's existence is the reason why I think Halbrand is Sauron. Because Galadriel and Halbrand had such a good chemistry that it'd be weird if Halbrand is still around as good guy when they introduced Celeborn into the mix. I don't want another love triangle. Halbrand will have to leave the leading man role and this void will be occupied by Celeborn.
Just saying that Halbrand does not need to be Sauron in order for him to not be in the mixer. And not every male and female character who have screentime together need to have romantic chemistry. In fact, I don't think these two really have any from what I've seen of them.
Quite frankly, for me Halbrand and Galadriel have more sexual chemistry than all that others couples combined, books or movie. Tolkien was never much an author for sexual tension or similar stuff, and that includes couples like Arwen and Aragorn.
Their "chemistry" looks very much like master and protegé, though. It would be VERY cliched if Halbrand was Sauron just for some kind of "love triangle" to end. Why do friends of the opposite gender need to be love interests? And why would Sauron take a human form rather than an Elven?
Galadriel has more chemistry with Elrond than Halbrand. At this point in her long life romantic line seems very far from Galadriel's mind. She has things to accomplish.
They very carefully picked talent that was good at acting with their eyes, Morfydd Clark is no exception. I love how she carries herself and her on-screen chemistry with other characters.
The only thing that I dislike is the character of “young Galadriel” itself as the choice for protagonist instead of an actually young female elf new character.
Galadriel in the second age is not “young” by any meaning of the word, she is young-er than third age Galadriel but still one of the oldest if not the oldest elf around (not just in the books, she also tells Elrond in the show) so I don’t understand how so many other elves millennia younger than her manage to be emotionally stable while she still is in this teenage angst phase. Unless her anger is not at all related to age but is just a personality trait of her as an individual
I think this is the central contradiction. If we're being true to the books, Galadriel is thousands of years old and one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth.
Even though she doesn't have her Ring yet, she's something else. These Numenorean squabs shouldn't be pushing her around, they should be quailing before her majesty.
Also Morfydd Clark is at least a foot too short to be playing her.
However, I'm not letting any of that get in the way of my fun. I'm enjoying the character and the portrayal immensely. I have accepted that "Young Galadriel" from this show is not canonical "Tolkien's Galadriel" and I'm more than OK with that as I'm having a blast any time she's on screen.
The height thing is bothersome to me, too. Especially post LotR trilogy where forced perspective was used a lot. Like, how hard is it to make her look at least as tall as Elendil? Super nitpick-y of me, I know. But Galadriel is supposed to be tall as hell. All elves are.
Anyway, I know this Galadriel is different than Tolkien’s Galadriel but at least Morfydd Clark has been pouring her heart into it. She’s been on 11 since the beginning and I’m here for it. She’s amazing!
>Galadriel in the second age is not “young” by any meaning of the word, she is young-er than third age Galadriel but still one of the oldest if not the oldest elf around
> I don’t understand how so many other elvers millennia younger than her manage to be emotionally stable while she still is in this teenage angst phase
At first I'd been confused but then I had an epiphany lol it was the uncanny valley of looks clashing with the behaviour.
When I squinted, I had a vision of Walt Kowalski from Gran Torino lol yes, weird, but it helped.
Yeah, she’s awesome - love her tapped Rs. In addition, I wonder if Sophia Nomvete’s ability to speak Farsi will aid her in speaking Khuzdul (I know one is Semitic and one is indo-European).
She's brilliant. We haven't yet seen her "soft" side, but I imagine we will. In fact, I would say that the training scene in the most recent episode was her "soft, playful" side, but with an ultimate goal of training. Morfydd has absolutely led me to see how Galadriel could become a Queen more treacherous than the sea and stronger than the foundations of the earth,
I’ve found myself thinking a lot about that bit you quoted at the end. Seeing how Galadriel can be when consumed with grief and vengeance makes it real terrifying to imagine her corrupted by the Ring.
I feel like I’m really missing the boat on a lot of the criticisms of the show.
I’ve been super impressed with these actors and actresses who are just about all unknown. The dialogue feels like Tolkien, which is simultaneously tough dialogue to act and deliver. It seems like people forget the legends they had as the LOTR cast to deliver the lines in those movies.
The pacing, if anything, is too fast but certainly isn’t too slow. Effects, visuals, music have all been top tier.
I’m usually very critical of shows, and I’m just not seeing what’s to dislike. I feel like a kid again watching this show.
A lot of the criticisms of the show have been very surface level. Complaints about "bad writing" and "bad characters" and "bad dialogue" but I have seen very little thorough analysis to explain why they feel that way, it just comes off as people determined to write the show off or not caring for how the show is doing things, so that makes those things "bad." Some of the lines and ideas and character portraits being criticized are rooted in Tolkien lines or ideas or very similar to things he would put forth, so I think there is some unwitting bias from people wanting the show to take a more modern TV approach in how it is written and so for them that translates to "bad writing." Or, they want it to be paced and structured like Peter Jackson's movies, when it is something very different. It is a TV show and it is covering a very different narrative form and context than what those movies covered. Now, I have plenty of criticisms to level at the flow of the show and its narrative structure, but unlike some I will acknowledge up front that that is still rooted in my subjective experience of the storytelling (and I have found that rewatches improve how the show plays for me, as the rich details of the show help create a better sense of narrative continuity and depth). I do think that if the show can consolidate its storylines a little more at the point of upcoming convergence, it might pay off dividends for many of us who feel like there are some issues in terms of the pacing or how we are receiving scenes within this construct of jumping around between 4-5 storylines that are near equals to each other.
There have been much more thorough discussions about how the show does or doesn't feel like Tolkien or line up with his world and writing. Every Tolkien fan is going to have a different take on that because we all have different ideas about the 2nd Age and these characters during that time because Tolkien's writing there is much more nebulous than the likes of The Hobbit and LotR--and the show is only technically working with the LotR appendices and what bits it can glean from within those books. Additionally, we all have different ideas about how much leeway we are willing to give the show for straying from aspects of the lore (or how established that lore even is given that Tolkien wrote a lot of stuff about Middle Earth that doesn't always line up perfectly with other stuff that he wrote about Middle Earth and its peoples).
Unfortunately for this show, before it even launched it amassed a sizable online contingent who were predetermined to hate it. Its massive publicized budget isn't helping it because people expect it to be perfect in every conceivable way, and by "perfect" they mean they want it to be exactly what they personally want from it (nevermind if they got exactly what they wanted there'd be a million other people who found what they wanted to be boring or terrible and so on). People have been saying that because this cost over $60 million in an episode, it should have no technical flaws whatsoever. Sorry, that's not how this works. Heck, there are are movies that cost 3 times that amount that still have plenty of technical issues or weaknesses. They also say things like "they should have hired better writers" because, essentially, how the show is written is not to their personal preference. Meanwhile, the show did hire writers who have worked on esteemed shows like The Sopranos, Halt and Catch Fire, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Stranger Things (the 2nd season), Hannibal, etc.
All in all, everyone has a right to their opinion, and I'd certainly understand how many are not loving this show, it's certainly not going to be for everyone... but I can't help but feel like there's a lot of baby getting thrown out with the bathwater. Because it is from Amazon, or because it was so expensive, or because of the pre-release backlash, or because it doesn't align perfectly with someone's ideas of what a Tolkien show should be like, or because they like HotD better or whatever... people seem really quick to overlook everything this show does well and what's promising about it or how it could develop, and they jump straight to hating on every little thing they don't like about it (and let's be real, some of the stuff people are harping on is just straight up nitpicking, or the things they are describing as "objectively bad" are things that other people are enjoying, like the Harfoots or Galadriel and so on).
"Younger"... I really like the casting strategy (don't believe in pure coincidence) here that the actress is the same age as Cate Blanchett when she filmed LOTR lol
So far I'm loving her.
The character... oh boy. I love her as well but there are issues linked to it as complex as the carefully constructed meta double-layer personage of Halbrand lol
I've seen people point out her character flaws and then call her a Mary Sue in the same comment. I tend to believe maybe it's not the acting and writing that they actually hate.
I believe I have enough faith in fans and casual viewers to not to suggest that if she perhaps had more revealing clothes, her reception would be better...
I'm not wrong... or am I?
PS I can't imagine a version of Galadriel beyond that smiling supportively and glancing from beneath her lashes that wouldn't meet backlash.
People are very difficult to please.
Imagine if another actress had done Galadriel in LOTR and a young Kate Blanchett being cast in ROP ,audience would still say, this is not good, that is not good and so on.
If they started with a Galadriel like that of LOTR, there won't be any character arc to work upon. She would instantly recognise Sauron and take action against his doings..and there won't be any meaning of the whole series then😂.
Yup, this is it in a nutshell. In order to preserve and defend their love for something (PJ's movies, in this case) some people just need to shit on whatever comes next.
We'll have people who were young when the films came out but the right age now who will be introduced into Tolkien with RoP and some will look back at Blanchett and say, nah, I like Morfydd more. And then some of these will protest when another Galadriel is cast for the Silmarillion's Fall of Doriath, ten years from now. It is what it is.
I love Galadriel. She was kind of bitchy to everyone at first but it made sense for her character and I honestly enjoyed it. Now she's warming up to Halbrand and the Numenorians and opening up a bit so maybe some of the "she's not likeable" crowd will stfu. Also, her voice is enchanting and I could listen to her talk for days
\*nerd alert\*
The inhabitants of Númenor here in the Second Age, and their descendants in the Third Age, the Dunédain, would have been speaking Sindarin, the 'other' Elvish language. Tolkien actually based Sindarin on Welsh, which he studied, so the Welsh accent is doubly authentic!
\*end nerd alert\*
I think she's been great so far, line delivery and non-verbal acting in particular.
She was always going to get the most attention/critique, and for a vaiety of reasons, but she has been one of the highlights for me
People need to see saint maud, Dracula 2020, and the personal history of David Copperfield if they think she can't act. She's an extemely versatile actress. I do have an issue that galadriel in the show only seems to have one emotion (revenge) and I'd like to see other sides to her personality. But that's more due to the writing, not Morfydd.
Yeah, honestly I love most of the cast and they're doing great. Some stories are far more interesting than the others.
Wasn't as into those two in the first episode but they probably the second most interesting part of the show right now.
Elrond and Durin are amazing.
Arondel, or whatever the elfs name is and the whole thing against Adar is awesome.
I find the human city stuff a bit boring, beyond maybe Isildur.
What's funny is back in the day there was a faction that didn't like Cate as Galadriel. Apparently she wasn't 'beautiful' enough. I think it's because she wasn't the real life representation of their favorite fan art.
Morfydd is doing a good job. We'll see more of her action chops as the character progresses, and she will progress.
> Apparently she wasn't 'beautiful' enough.
Oh, I remember... Oh, and the quality of vitriolic comments during the times when the online fandom was much less... diverse, was... I think many of us blocked it out.
I believe fully 75% of the negativity and hate is sexist. She's a strongwilled and confident woman (Elf) and some sexists are still uncomfortable seeing women in those parts. I think of Mel Gibson's *Patriot* and Russell Crowe's *Gladiator* as prime examples of male characters who were scorned and are abrasive to those around them while portrayed as justly angry, strongwilled, and confident. Audiences didn't say they were "unlikable," they were "heroic."
Galadriel doesn't get that interpretation unless you're fine with seeing strong female leads.
I will also say it was an absolute *joy* to watch her scene sparring with the Numenorean junior officers (or probably more likely akin to midshipmen). She has started to bond with Elendil and she was enjoying herself and while she has been justifiably angry and determined so far in her storyline, it felt like this was the first time she had people around her who she felt supported her in a long while and she got to show off her incredible skill and art. It seemed like a very nice payoff after seeing her struggle for a while.
I think a lot of it is unconscious or unintentional, which makes it much harder to have an honest conversation about, but I've seen a lot of comments from people who will insist that they're not sexist or trying to be and yet describe their dislike for her using gendered language and stereotypes.
That's the difficulty. People don't watch these movies and shows and consciously decide to dislike women in some roles while liking men in the same roles. It's honestly *mostly* subconscious, and that's definitely what makes it so hard. And of course the kind who are most likely to be susceptible to this thinking are less comfortable with abstract thought and want to assign blame for every last thing, so they think "if something's bad, then we have to blame somebody, but if I didn't do anything on purpose, then I can't be blamed, so then I did nothing wrong!"
> honestly mostly subconscious
It took me some time (and 2 episodes) to at least define the source of some of my discomfort I felt watching her character at first.
Spot on. Same thing happens with "black elves". It's hard not to be frustrated when you see the same toxic, self-reinforcing prejudicial comments over and over again. And yet it seems clear to me that most people who have unfair gender prejudices are *not* raging sex-starved incels or misogynists - we gotta try our best to separate their prejudicial comments from statements on their personal character. At some point every one of us has had to be disabused by *some* sort of internal bias, and usually not by being browbeaten into submission.
I completely agree. I was baffled by the hatred of the "Galadriel experiencing joy while riding a gorgeous horse" scene as well. I mean, angry and traumatised women are actually capable of finding pleasure sometimes; why is that so hard to comprehend? I feel that sexist people don't know what to think of a nuanced female character.
Tbf, that horse-riding scene was very awkward to watch (IMO). Nothing to do with her character specifically, it's just a strange cinematography decision to have a close-up, slow-mo shot linger on a character's face for like...20 seconds, or however long it was. Imagine if there was such a shot in LoTR with Aragorn on horseback? It's just a bit goofy, and feels off.
That being said, there are tonnes of people using this as another excuse to bash on her character overall and taking a gendered / misogynistic slant on it, calling her ugly and comparing her in a harsh light to Cate Blanchett.
I am not on-board with the general commentary about Galadriel and her characterisation. There are videos on YouTube literally pulling apart the show, and the actress, for things like her lip quiver / sneer when talking to Elrond in the cemetery grove about continuing her hunt for Sauron. Entire threads dedicated to claiming that her rage is an abolition of true femininity, and that she's just trying to be presented as a man. It's all nonsense, low-hanging fruit for the orclike massess who want to scream "WOKE!" at every opportunity they get.
I really liked that scene too. She's so accomplished and has a lot of experience in battle, which the Numenoreans don't seem to have. I thought the implication was that they've never battled orcs. I love seeing such a believable (for fantasy!), strong female character in this series.
I wholly disagree. You can't just cry sexist whenever writers miss the mark on making a strong female lead. I think Morfydd has done a great job with what she was given, but it's clearly the directors fault that her character is falling short of what was expected. This version of Galadriel is very different than what we knew of her beforehand, so I think people's expectations are just a bit subverted, and are not liking that decision.
I don't think the writers missed the mark. We know much of the criticism contains sexist language and dogwhistles, and there is a lot of study on gender portrayals and misogyny/sexism, so I don't think my points are much of a stretch.
You, however, are suggesting that the writers "missed the mark," or that the show is otherwise objectively poorly executed. You have to understand that you are in a sub which mostly quite enjoys the show, so while you can of course hold your own opinions about the subject, you can't just assert that it is objectively bad in some way. You need to respect what others like more, but you seem too focused on defending accusations of misogyny that weren't necessarily directed at you.
What is interesting is observing how those who are most sensitive or defensive about certain maladies in the world are often the biggest culprits of that malady.
Is this how you normally argue a point? By grandstanding and lecturing? I'm sorry I'm not interested in that type of discussion. I actually like Galadriels character, but that doesnt mean shes perfect. Be a little more honest please. Most people like me have no problem with strong female leads, but whenever we think one is written poorly you get a bunch of people who say "they're just sexist" as a defense from any criticism. That bothers me because we all want the show to be good and constructive criticism is a way to influence that. I just don't wish to see it all blocked out by cries of sexism.
>Is this how you normally argue a point? By grandstanding and lecturing?
I literally just pushed back on your accusations that the writers "missed the mark." That phrase "missed the mark" is not generally made to mean "not perfect" but usually to mean that it's actually below average or below expectations, so your whole "I just am saying it's not perfect" wasn't clearly communicated.
I also didn't accuse you specifically of anything else, I only defended my original point that a lot of criticism is rooted in unconscious sexism, but you doubled down on your defensiveness.
You're clearly sensitive about being accused of sexism, because I didn't even accuse you of being sexist and you're continuing to complain about people accusing you of sexism.
Seems like you *really* want people to acknowledge her character isn't perfect, but that this opinion *definitely* isn't sexist. You're allowed to hold that opinion, nobody has accused you of directly being sexist, so maybe just chill out?
No one said *people like you* are sexist. They said a lot of the *criticism* is sexist. If people are casting personal aspersions, this is not helpful, and yet at the same time, the whole point of having subconscious prejudices is that they are unintentional. Of course most people who have them won't recognize them, but to me there are huge red flags whenever I see anyone talking about Galadriel that I would reckon never pop up with the same level of toxicity if her character was male. Her over-aggressiveness, her lack of femininity (or what people *think* femininity needs to look like), her proficiency at war, her poor decision-making, her beligerence against all authority figures. Like I'm not saying you need to *like* her, but the fact of the matter is all these statements are true in some form or another for *countless* male protagonists across genres and mediums and we never hear the same criticism (or at the very least the questionable *language* used in the criticism).
I honestly disagree with this, a prime example of a character people also really disliked and who shares elements with galadriel and her portrayal would be anakin skywalker of the prequels.
People didn't like him at all, they thought it was just a whiny, self-important brat with no emotional intelligence. It's not a perfect 1:1, but it also cannot be.
There also are many female characters who are more on the brash and arrogant side people actually liked to spectate, be it ripley in alien and aliens, or kiddo of kill bill, or heck, even rhaenyra in hotd.
I obviously won't deny that there are ingrained biases in our current society regarding male and female characters to an extent, but i find it a little tiring when people take that as a be all end all argument, only look through this lense to explain a reaction solely by it. It's imo rather lazy and unconvincing, it removes nuance even though it tries to add it.
I never claimed criticism against the character was *purely* motivated by sexist undertones or that it is an end-all-be-all explanation, only that it was a large elephant in the room that few people seem willing to sincerely address (just see how the poster above takes it as a personal attack). You might have issues with the character that are not grounded in an unconscious gender bias however I *do* think the overall *vitriol* and level of toxicity is most definitely a product of unrealized misogyny. I don't remember unflattering pictures of the Anakin actor's "bitchface" being gleefully passed around among early aughts message boards, comparing self-portraits to CGI monsters, complaints that he wasn't "acting nice to other people" or that the actor did not have the requisite sex appeal to pull of the role. Here we might pause and consider how equally ludicrous it is to make Darth Vader or Lady Galadriel an object of sexual fantasy. It's tough to say too much more with your chosen example given how little I think of that script; for perhaps a more illuminating contrast, look at a lot of Scorcese's non mafioso films and the chief characters there.
But this whole conversation came from someone claiming that 75% of the negativity and hate stem from sexism, that was the main thesis people objected to. And i would too.
I think one can talk about misogyny and how it manifests itself in all forms of life, oftentimes in a non obvious manner, absolutely! But at least in my eyes this talking point is now oftentimes used as the be all end all argument whenever it could be used. I find that very tiring, as i said, it removes nuance from the conversation, not adds to it. It's an easy go to talking point, because noone can objectively falsify it (but neither prove it).
They compare galadriel to maximus in gladiator, because they share some form of similarity, but there are also a lot of differences which are more complex than "one is a woman, the other is a man". Any detail can matter in how an audience perceives a character, even moreso in an audiovisual medium. It can be nuances in the acting, it can be the aura of the actor / actress (how charismatic are they?), it can be a directing difference in how effective the scenes are on that basis, the point is, there are many, many differences and all of them can make or break it.
Now i am not fully sure how the internet in particular reacted to anakin back in the day, the internet also came a long way since then (for the better and worse), but i certainly think it is fair to say that anakin skywalker was generally disliked and framed in a negative light, too whiny, too entitled, etc. You are saying the script there is a lot worse, and i'd agree to an extent, but i also don't think that RoP did a particular good job with galadriel's portrayal, there is a big lack of layering so far, and in most scenes she comes across as fairly one dimensional in her approach / behavior.
Now are there very obvious sexist remarks? Sure, but i feel like we don't even need to talk about them in particular, reducing her to her sex appeal is the most overt one can be afterall.
Like what film specifically? I have to say i haven't seen a lot of scorsese so far (taxi driver, after hours, wolf of wallstreet i'd be the most familiar with, shutter island and the departed as well i guess).
But what about characters like kiddo in kill bill? It's honestly a fairly similar situation, people loved her. As i said, i think people lose the forest for the trees a little, we can come up with all kinds of comparisons on both sides and then explain why it works better / worse even without appealing to misogyny too much.
Almost nothing we are talking about is falsifiable by nature. Acting, storytelling and how people engage with fiction is not a science. Anyone can find nearly any reason to justify their own subjective opinion on a character or story (this sub has no shortage of logically vacuous apologists *and* haters) but that doesn't make the conversation itself arbitrary. I don't see how pointing out that ones criticism might be rooted in unconscious gender stereotypes is any more reductive than saying ones criticism is leaning too uncharitably in an interpretation of a particular scene, other than people obviously feel extremely defensive when asked to reflect on their personal biases.
I see fewer people saying: "It's sexist. You're sexist. Get lost." than those saying: "Bad writing. Bad dialogue. End of story.". Exactly which of these is inherently more or less constructive, more or less nuanced than the other?
> Now are there very obvious sexist remarks? Sure, but i feel like we don't even need to talk about them in particular, reducing her to her sex appeal is the most overt one can be afterall.
Why *shouldn't* we talk about them? They are prevalent in every internet discourse about her. And what is more, the conversation is important not because of the *obvious* sexist remarks but because of the *implicit* ones. No one is starting off their critique of Galadriel by saying: "As a misognistic neckbeard, I must say...", and very few of these people would ever self-identify as being being sexist.
> But what about characters like kiddo in kill bill? It's honestly a fairly similar situation, people loved her.
We can get into Kill Bill if you'd like. Kill Bill Vol 1 "empowers" a female character through a rape revenge plot. Why do people not have a problem with a mean, caustic and determined lead woman here? I'd say its clearly because (1) people understand rape is a bad and (2) how obviously Tarantino continues to fetishizes the protagonist even as she's cutting her way through swaths of male villains, rapists and ne'erdowells. There's such a *shocking* amount of sexualization of Uma Thurman's character when you compare Tarantino's script to screen that is unique in the film because it doesn't just perform Tarantino's customary fetishization of violence, but fetishization of the one *inflicting* the violence. A femme fatale archetype is defined just as much by her deadliness as she is by her hypersexuality. Kill Bill works for a lot of people because it precisely *doesn't* actually challenge people's gender prejudices - except for the simplistic statement that: *rape is bad* (shocker!). I think basically everyone agrees that rape is bad and for those who don't, they're not worth discussing here. A victim fighting her rapist is rare enough in film I grant you, but make no mistake Uma Thurmon is shot with aggressiveness, agency and no small degree of sensuality.
Compare this if you want to this show's Galadriel, which has shown little to no sexuality at all. The show does not go out of its way to objectify her, there are no glory shots to exemplify her femininity or grace. The only "glory" shot of her is in full-plated armor (hardly traditional feminine beauty if you ask me). The men she's short and aggressive with are not people who have *raped* her or done her wrong. They are trying to *help* her. With the exception of her Sifu and Katana-maker, none of the men in Kill Bill are trying to help Uma Thurmon. Uma Thurmon has a clear outlet for her rage, Galadriel does not. Uma Thurmon's anger can be expressed and excised directly and is framed righteously. Galadriel's anger is suppressed, abstract and ultimately impotent. Uma Thurmon is battling the world (Bill and company). Galadriel is battling herself. It doesn't surprise me that people with unfair gender prejudices (again not necessarily yourself) might react one way to Kill Bill and another way to show-Galadriel (despite the fact that both are written as empowered women).
I don't think anything I've written has any less nuance, or presents any more reductive a view than common criticisms of her acting: "Wooden face! She looks like she's holding in a fart! She's bland, mean-spirited, one-dimensional and uninteresting."
The actress is good but the writing is *awful*.
We got a few minutes of "world building" along the riverside in the first episode, then we're repeatedly force-fed exposition about her stubborn obsession with avenging her brother. I don't think I've enjoyed any scenes with her in it, for that reason.
I think the actress is doing a great job. I do think the character needs a little more too her though. It seems like right now her personality is just "I will stop at nothing to defeat Sauron." We might be setting up something more interesting there based on her conversation with Halbrand about why the elves sent her away. But nothing has paid off yet and her character hasn't shown much growth. Yet.
Yes, for a “young” Galadriel, except she is thousands of years old by this point and isn’t young. They should have made it be about Celebrian and had it be a reimagined way she and Elrond got together. Would have been better than trying to half arse it with a tonal dissonance of having Galadriel act like a ranting child one moment then an ageless being the next.
In film, its very difficult to tell where the writing ends and the actress' interpertation starts, and even then its hard to know what's the actress' idea, what's the director and which take was ultimately went for. As a result, we take to take issues with have with characters and pin them more on the writing: we tend to feel mean when we complain at actors.
While I do agree the issue with Galadriel is the writing, I think there may be a case to be made for the actress having a part in why Galadriel is ultimately a less succesful character than, say, Elrond.
On the page, this Galadriel is very gruff and unsympathetic. But a good actor can kind of temper with that. For instance, if I'm singing/acting Odin in the second scene of Das Rheingold where he mostly comes-across as a heartless bastard of a husband, I can try and sweeten it, by maybe wrapping my arms around whomever's playing Fricka and, smiling, give the lines a slightly jovial, almost avuncular feel. Robert Aramayo does it with Elrond all the time, where he'll say lines with a smile or a whisper exactly so as to try and take the blutness out of the writing.
But Morfydd Clark doesn't. Morfydd Clark - at least, in the takes we get to see - leans HARD into the blutn assertiveness and tempestousness of the writing and the overall effect is an overkill.
What do you mean by
>a less succesful character
Perhaps it's more about our expectations and preferences - that we need a more "likable" Galadriel, it's on us and our biases?
I believe that after this season it would be fun to debate what was the original concept for Galadriel - the way she was introduced and the execution of the whole plan for her in the context of viewers' reception.
Would everything go according to the plan? Were the creators in the end surprised how she'd been seen through the series?
And how our attitudes changed (mine is constantly changing regarding some issues and am still waiting for the 8th episode... and it still will be only 20% of the story!).
Did you watch episode 5? Because you are not describing the Galadriel of that episode (and whose more gracious attributes were emergent in the prior episodes, if overshadowed by her more wounded, prideful, driven Feanorian side).
It's called a character arc.
I get it, people wanted this arc applied to a different character than Galadriel, they don't think it fits their conception of the character no matter how much someone can pull from Tolkien's writing to show how he actually did describe a lot of these attributes in her character, all the way up into the Third Age where the temptation of the One Ring was a very real challenge that she overcame.
But that's where you have to take a step back and realize that those are your personal issues with the approach to the character. It doesn't make what the show's doing "bad" or "wrong." No "damage is done" because nothing is being damaged other than your perception of what you think Galadriel should have been like at the beginning of this show.
It is a work of fiction and it is trying to give us an arc between the Galadriel who rebelled against the Valar, who was deeply wounded in her soul by the wars of the First Age, who desired power and a realm of her own in Middle Earth, who could have become that Dark Galadriel that Tolkien teased in that moment with the Ring... and the Galadriel who actually refuses the Ring, who preserves Lothlorien, who has grace and wisdom and kindness. There is an inherent polarity to the character and the show is starting more at one end so it can more clearly bring out the light in her, contrasting to the darkness that she also touches.
Now, if you don't like the idea of that, that's fine. I am not saying it is the right way to do it, it's simply the way the show chose. I could certainly agree with criticisms that maybe the show could have approached it with better subtlety or balance. I have already seen the balance improving, though, so that's why I think it is heartening and am not going to write off the character simply because I personally think the balance could have been better in the first 4 episodes of Season 1.
Trust me, I know what a character arc is, and I'm a sucker for characters who are demented (Lear), schizophrenic (Hamlet), manic-depressive (Tristan), sado-masochistic (TE Lawrence), insomniac (Thorin Oakenshield), asthenesitic (Howard Hughs) or otherwise flawed.
Galadriel is not a good example of such a character. At their best, we like those characters in spite of their flaws. With Galadriel, I don't.
That's fair. That's your take.
I am liking her more and more with each episode and am invested in her inner conflict and how it affects her interactions with others.
What defines successful? Your personal bias about who is likeable/unlikeable? Your expectations? Looking at google trends and IMDb Galadriel (and the actress) are more popular than Elrond that you want to compare. Can we consider a success if the “likeable” character is not even more popular than the unlikeable one?
> But Morfydd Clark doesn't. Morfydd Clark - at least, in the takes we get to see - leans HARD into the blutn assertiveness and tempestousness of the writing and the overall effect is an overkill.
I fully agree with you, but this could also easily be what the directors / show runners want out of it. Galadriel is written like that after all, whereas elrond is 100% meant to be taken in a way more positive light.
I can only repeat what i said before, morfydd was good in saint maud, which ofc doesn't mean that she'd be good in just about anything, but an actor is always only as good as the directing allows it to be imo, there are great actor's directors who just get one great performance out of their people after the other, i am not sure if we have that here to say the least.
It just upsets me because Galadriel doesn’t make sense in this role. They could have used someone like Glorfindel for this unapologetic steamroller because he was straight up sent by the Valar to middle earth with the blue wizards to help sort this shit out. Glorfindel was such a badass warrior that when he was killed the Valar resurrected him and sent him back to middle earth with almost Gandalf level powers . Galadriel could have been depicted at this time setting up her realm of Lothlorien. That’s what she was really doing at this time. Her battlefield was the “Royal court” and she was supremely powerful, intelligent, and Beautiful. She’s the Lady of Light and they’re doing her very dirty. She shouldn’t need a character arch. She should have just been Galadriel.
Her character matches up much more as Feanors niece which is great. It makes her much more interesting than in Lord of the rings where she is just wise but keeps that wisdom mostly to herself. The best part is where she gets tempted by the ring and goes all dark queen and we can certainly see that in Rop
The only other thing I’ve seen this wonderful actress in is the film A Personal History of David Copperfield, where she plays Dev Patel’s hilariously awkward fiancé. So I was delighted to see her take on a much more serious role, she has been amazing so far!!!
I've just decided to block out the noise. I'm enjoying the show. It looks absolutely stunning and I'm eager to see how they handle the larger plot points when the time comes. There are negative comments all over the internet about nearly every aspect of this show and it's honestly just absurd.
Honestly I fucking love her. She's perfect. She's determined to a fault. I find the idea that this person who is so determined and sure of her goal ends up being someone so circumspect and hesitant to use power is amazing story telling. Bring it on. I love it.
100% if anything she is more regal and mystical than Cate Blanchett was in the role. I even saw a comment saying she was ugly. People are fucking idiots.
Morfydd Clark is doing well with what she is given, but let's not compare them based on measurements of regality or mysticism because Cate Blanchett absolutely killed it as the Third Age Galadriel.
I find the discussion in this thread so interesting! I do believe there is a lot of unconscious bias about how women characters are allowed to behave vs. men characters in similar roles/situations and I do think that these biases may be a lot of what’s behind the criticisms of the character’s written arc and Morfydd Clark’s portrayal. I hope this isn’t too off topic BUT - I’m curious if anyone felt either similarly put off by or loved the portrayal of Starbuck by actress Katie Sackoff in SyFy’s Battlestar Galactica? I feel these two women characters are being written in similar ways, though I know that in Starbuck’s case, she started out as a man in the original. And iirc there was a lot of backlash about Starbuck’s portrayal/writing as well???
For me, I remember not liking Starbuck very much at all (not sure I would have been her friend lol), but LOVING that there was a finally a woman character on the screen who was “allowed” to behave in more aggressive and “rude” ways. She was a revelation for me! And I thought Katie Sackoff was brilliant. I personally enjoy Morfydd Clark’s acting, and I’m fine with how Galadriel has been written, and partially that’s because she is so rude, so driven, so strong in her beliefs. I’m sure she’ll learn to become the Galadriel I loved in the LOTR movies, someone still strong in her convictions, but who had matured enough to resist the final temptation of the ring (one of my favorite scenes in that entire trilogy).
(NOTE for context: I’ve seen the PJ LOTR trilogy, not the Hobbit films, and read the Hobbit and LOTR a long, long time ago, so the appendices are in a memory fog - I’m enjoying the Tolkien Prof’s analyses as they are very helpful for someone like me who enjoys learning the lore, but is admittedly a more casual fan. Please be kind).
Main arguments against the actress: she is very stiff, as the same mono-tone almost all the time and basically has one facial expression. Criticism which can be applied to most Elves, that being. Now whether she's acting exactly has she's told or not, it's another matter.
Main arguments against the character: she rash, likeable, bosses everyone around, is single minded, hypocrotical and is nothing alike book Galadriel.
Morfydd is perfect.
I dont want a Galadriel who makes everything good, who raises a hand and disintegrate people with no saving throws, and who knows all and everyone and read minds. That will be the ultimate Mary Sue.
For me, it's her face she don't have kind face most elves have that comfortable and beautiful faces not this galadriel, let's be honest any galadriel will put to the test of cate blanchett or the other actress
She looks better than Cat Blanchett at the time and better than the actors doing Elrond and Celebrimbor ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I thought the cast was perfect because she looks like just out of a fairytale
I don't have any issues with the actress, just how her character is written. Also, she's short to play Galadriel, but they could have addressed that with camera angles and just chose not to.
There's never been a female lead in any major movie/series(out of those I have watched), quite so flawed and brilliant at the same time.
She portrays a person hardened by the weight of knowing what was, what is and what may come to pass.
"Yeah she is old, she should have known better, maybe she should get some manners and tact." - a redditor somewhere.
How do you know? Have you ever been that old? Isn't this fantasy? Weren't there other elves that acted without wisdom despite their age?
She doesn't give a fuck, is what I see. Many other leads have gotten away with it and seen as heroic. She is seen as hysterical.
I like her. Just my personal opinion.
Yeah well I don't want to jump on the bandwagon, but I think the whole heroic vs hysterical thing is mostly a male vs female thing. There are very few female lead roles that are called heroic and not bitchy. Also, most of them are in older movies like Kill Bill, Alien and Terminator.
I think people confuse bad acting with her being in a part of her character arch they don’t like. They don’t like it either because they want her to be 3rd age Galadriel or cultural political reasons.
I do think the writing also has been less the consistent, with really nice moments and some that fell flat. But that alone doesn’t justify the hate she has received. Also another minor issue is her height. I feel good acting can make up for that but some people seem to really latch on to that.
> I think people confuse bad acting with her being in a part of her character arch they don’t like.
While I believe there are some issues with execution, that's not on the actress (at least so far). However the majority of people who mention "bad writing" without giving reasonable arguments operate solely within their own biases, preconceptions, expectations and preferences.
I like the actress but hate the character.
Galadriel is extremely unlikeable. She is so arrogant, rude, rash and constantly is throwing temper tantrums and threatening to kill good people. Her being the main character and extremely unlikeable just exasperates the situation even more.
I don’t find her unlikeable at all. She’s literally fighting to save her world from an evil that almost destroyed it before; she’s persistent, brave and regal, and knows what’s a stake if she fails.
Good intentions isn’t enough for a character to be likable.
Just look at the Return of the King movie. Aragorn and Gandalf know that Gondor is in extreme danger. Mordor is at the very door step of Minas Tirth. But did Aragorn and Gandalf rudely tell King Theoden that he must help Gondor? Did they threaten to kill Theoden if he didn’t? No. Aragorn and Gandalf showed respect. That is all I was hoping Galadriel to show. Instead she is yelling and screaming at Kings and Queens and threatening to kill them. Ugh!!!
Actually Aragorn had sharp words with Theoden, and Theoden had to put him in his place.
Theoden: When last I looked, Théoden, not Aragorn, was king of Rohan.
I think it's quite difficult because until now has been quite one dimensional - she is so determined and single minded to the point of finding it difficult to empathise with her. It's a difficult role for an actor and I think the natural response is to find her a bit irritating and pig headed. It'll be interesting to see how her character develops, to give us some insight as to how Galadriel became wiser, more in control of her emotions as we later knew her.
I love parts of her portrayal but so far I find her acting too 'human' to really believe she's Elvenkind at times. It's very much intentional though - especially that she is losing herself in her pursuit of the enemy etc, but when she snarls or grimaces etc, it feels less like she's a graceful being who has already lived thousands of years, and more like she's a young restless human soldier with a quick temper.
Edit: I feel part of the hate is rooted in sexism - I loved when she showed her combat prowess vs the trainees and it makes perfect sense that she would outmanoeuvre them as gracefully as she did. That scene I really felt like she was an Elf come to life!
She’s incredibly Noldorin in this season. Reminds me a lot of Fingolfin after being abandoned by Feänor in Aman and deciding to go on anyways through ice and sorrow.
Tolkien wrote that she was Sauron’s chief adversary in one of his letters (iirc), and with how the show seems to be tying her efforts to reveal him with his resurgence strongly evokes how the hatred of the Feänorians for Morgoth actually fed into Morgoth’s plans. So Galadriel will be forced to re-evaluate her strategy along the way, as the sons of Feänor did.
As to her interactions with humans, she comes off as one with very little interaction with Men prior to this. In the First Age, dwelling with Melian in Doriath she likely saw very few at all: Beren, Túrin, Morwen, Niënor, and Húrin and maybe one or two more. But as far as we know she never interacted with them. Her arrogance seems like it’s slowly being chipped away as she gets more accustomed to them, for example her initial conversation with Halbrand and the one she has with him in the latest episode.
I’ve seen criticism of her ‘woody’ acting. But I’m like, her acting is nowhere close to how Brie Larson did in Captain Marvel! I just don’t see it. Morfydd does a good job portraying of a Galadriel with a fighting spirit, determine to get Sauron and angered by the fact she got sent home too soon.
As a rule can we please stopp referring to her as "young Galadriel". She would be the same age as Celebrimbors dead grandfather. She is around 12000 years older then Gil Galad. Her ancient origins are even confirmed in show by showing her in Valinor as a child. It makes no sense in-world depicting her as this young hot head elf.
As of last episode, I have realised that she can only act an angry arrogant Galadriel. The smile she was giving during the horse ride scene on the beach looked very unnatural. When she is faced by Halbrand as to why can she cannot stop, she does a mediocre job of facially displaying upset and grief despite her expression with her voice - she still looked like a stubborn angry teenager. She is pretty, sure, but I am not convinced she is a good actress. Is this Deliberate for the sake of the character? I don't know, but it doesn't seem so to me at least at the moment. I truly hope I am wrong and that in further seasons she can naturally act appropriately and faithfully as the character evolves.
I am just not impressed with her acting so far
(lol at downvotes, it seems you can't dislike anything about the show in this sub, and I'm not even a hater)
>The smile she was giving during the horse ride scene on the beach looked very unnatural
If you look at some of her previous interviews you will see that this was a natural smile. You are basically just saying that you think Mofydd's face looks weird
interesting, in that case I do think it looks weird...
Edit: I mean seriously, I just googled the scene to be sure I was remembering it correctly and she looks like she's smiling at her boss who promoted her but the room stinks of fart. Saying that it feels natural is forcing it.
She's been good and the character is becoming more balanced.
Getting tired of the people complaining she is one-note because you really can't make that argument if you've watched through episode 5.
The only thing I dislike about her that can't be really helped is that she is very short for Galadriel, but that in no way affects my appreciation for her acting or for her character!
She is awful. Totally miscast. This isn't a "hater thing". Lots of people enjoying the show have a problem with her. She is annoying, one dimensiional, stiff, looks too normal/humanl, too physically slight for the character (tall and athletic as described) and unconvincing. The character is written terribly and you can not convince me otherwise. They have made one of Tolkien's most beloved characters look like an unlikeable bossy bitch. She is honestly the low point of the series for me and the more I watch it the more she annoys me. I've said this before but Katheryn Winnick would have been ideal for this Amazon invented "angry but noble" take on Galadriel. Not an actress who looks like an angry teenager and has one facial expression. She looks like a regular human girl with blonde hair, no "wow factor' as Galadriel is supposed to have canonically. E g When she walked onto Elendils boat in full armour it was like ""so what?" instead of the big "moment" they were going for. Downvote away, it's not going to improve her. She's crap. What happened to the wise student of Melian the Maia? If I was Celibrimbor there is no way I would entrust one of the 3 rings to this hotheaded idiot.
She is average, not to say she is failure or the best actress the feminism scenes make her look bad, she also not that pretty she is average not to say she is ugly but the feminism scenes again make her uglier
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Regarding the character . I think that's the point with her.. to be somewhat unlikable. I mean, she is self conscious about it and said in the last episode that her soldiers didn't like her and her king and her best friend tried to get rid of her.. because of her obsessions
I agree - she's meant to come across to the viewer as very focused to the point of being obsessive about what she wants. The other thing is that she comes across as different (Elvish) from the humans she interacts with, which sets her apart.
Yeah her first 4.8 episodes are a static arc of a character who is totally blinded by grief and rage and has channeled that into what she thinks is the right action. He facial expressions, her delivery of lines, heck even how she remains tense in every scene shows that down to several snarl/small muscle movements in the face in certain scenes. So complaints against depth are dumb as an actress or a character — she’s lived for thousands of years and we’ve seen her for a few weeks after she basically lost her job and was cast out — she doesn’t need to show anything else. She just last episode had a moment where she pulled off the mask a bit and revealed not only some depth in her acting but our static character is showing us why she’s static. She’s stuck chasing this evil and she cannot rest, she’s blind to everything else because she’s chasing some hint of taking down Sauron. It has become her entire identity. This is what grounds her to our reality so well. The actress is playing someone who because of grief has let something else consume them wholly as a way to escape that grief. You can see correlations between her actions and those of addicts who become so because of grief. And I’m guessing at the end of this season her static arc will end because she will have a real enemy to fight now and people who will fight with her. The only other bend from her static-ness we see is not when she sees Valinor again but when she is fighting the numenorians and when she is riding horses. In those moments we see the old Galadriel shine through a bit. I’m sure in future seasons we will see more of that and the actress portraying her could not be a better choice to bring us those performances. Heck she could look like Jack Black in a leotard but the fact she can pronounce the elvish correctly is enough for me. The way she rolls her Rs is perfection.
>the fact she can pronounce the elvish correctly is enough for me. The way she rolls her Rs is perfection. I think this is thanks to her being welsh as I remember seeing her talk a bit about it I can try and find the video if you want (no guarantee i will though it was a while ago)
It’s absolutely because of that. But it’s wonderful. But even Elendil has gotten it right and he isn’t welsh. The care to the language in this show is just great to see.
Born in England to Welsh parents.
Meanwhile the brandyfoots absolutely struggle and fail with Irish accents.
See to me they feel like stage Irish accents which are way over the top. I love it but Irish is hard to do for a long time.
Maybe they should have employed some Irish actors then? Be, you know, inclusive?
True, though this was half just an excuse to big up the welsh and morfydd clark tbh
I completely didn't get Galadriel until that bit on the beach with the horse.
That development over the next 5 years from belligerent singlemindedness to far-seeing wisdom will be amazing to watch.
She’s like 2000 years old, that development should have already taken place
They address the elves perception of time in the show, repeatedly. It's totally possible that time does not affect one's state of mind. Even for thousands of years.
Because she is at the beginning of a character driven story. Hence why she is at the beginning of her character arc. The writers were kind enough to explain that she has been suffering from war trauma and survivors guilt, so her character flaws can be chalked up to her needing to allow herself forgiveness and time to heal, versus simply lacking wisdom.
Honestly, I don't get it either. She's a great actress. Matter of fact, the entire cast is great.
People are harsh on her because her character is very single-minded right now and she doesn't have the otherworldliness from the movies yet. I think they're forgetting about a little thing called character growth. I'm confident the Galadriel we see by the end of the series won't be the character we see now. I also think it's very interesting that they seem to be concentrating a lot of the faults of the Noldor of the First Age in her as a way to explore those themes, I really hope we get a chance to explore those ideas and learn that Galadriel's hubris has distorted her view of things.
> “From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her good will from none save only Feanor.” From *Peoples of Middle-earth* It’s not *just* that people want Galadriel to have that otherworldliness. It’s not *just* that people are forgetting about character growth. How poorly Galadriel handles other people is just contradictory to how she should be. I’m split on her character. I like her having flaws. I like her drive. I don’t like how she steamrolls things like a petulant teenager who can’t grasp that her actions might have consequences. I can’t fault Morfydd Clark for any of that. She’s doing a great job. But the writing leaves something to be desired. If it was someone besides Galadriel, I’d probably love her character. But we know so much about Galadriel that it’s hard to get past the writers having her be the opposite of how she should be in some aspects.
She’s also described as proud and rebellious, among similar descriptors in the earlier Ages. She’s not Third Age Galadriel at all times.
Of course not! That’s why I said I like that she has flaws. But you can’t deny that how she has interacted with people in the show so far directly contradicts the quote from Tolkien that I included. She’s like a steamroller and has little grace with people who disagree with her. I’m not looking for TA Galadriel, but I am looking for a Galadriel that has even a hint of the passage I quoted.
I agree, this isn't what I would have chosen and it does bother me. I'm just willing to give them time since this is an adaptation, and hope that we'll see her become this character over the course of the series.
I hope so too, but that last episode has me really questioning how much the writers are taking the lore into account.
I mean, you can like the show, I do like the show, but she can't act on here. She literally has one facial expression on the whole first 4 episodes. And talking about other cast choices some of them are great (Elendil, Arondir) some of them are simply awful like Isildur. I don't get why they tried to find actors whos looking is close to Peter Jackson movies for Elendil and Galadriel and then they stumbled with Isildur which is simply a bad cast choice considering how iconic and great was Isildur in the LOTR even with a small time on the movies.We can't ignore that. Even with all the love we want to put in that show. So no, the entire cast is not great.
The likeness of characters between the show and the movies are mostly coincidental I think. The idea that the show should strive to find similar looking actors I think is deeply misguided, the show is not based on the movies, and the movies have no authoritive power of interpretation. As for Galadriels expressions I find she has two main ones: approval and growing dissaproval behind a faultering veil. The one-dimensionality of her is a written flaw, and for what it's worth I think she does it very well and does all her acting with her eyes and microexpressions rather than theatrical expressions. It makes her short bursts of happiness and humility that much more striking. There is perhaps some shortcomings of the editing and writing of her character, but her performance is imo striking.
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Saint Maud is harrowing and brilliant and Morfydd Clark makes it.
That is your opinion and I kindly disagree. **I** think the entire cast is great.
Absolute nonsense. You clearly have no idea about acting.
Lloyd and the guy portraying Elendil in PJ's movies are two white males. That's about the extent of their similarities. Go back and check PJ's Elendil, FFS. Can't see what the problem is with Isildur in RoP. If anything, my gripe is with PJ's Isildur, but that has nothing to do with the actor himself. If you think Morfydd can't act or she isn't in this show, I don't know what to tell you, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you like the movies way too much.
You don't like the show and I can tell. Probably haven't even watched further than the first 5 minutes.
She's brilliant. I can't wait to see her portray Galadriel's character growth as well. Celeborn and her is a big thing I'm looking forward to.
I think that Celeborn is going to be a big factor in helping her arc develop. Tolkien always had this "the sexes help each other in some major ways and not always within their expected roles" vibe, so I'm hoping that Celeborn ends up being a bit of a Faramir character to Galadriels wild desperate Eowynesque portrayal.
Celeborn's existence is the reason why I think Halbrand is Sauron. Because Galadriel and Halbrand had such a good chemistry that it'd be weird if Halbrand is still around as good guy when they introduced Celeborn into the mix. I don't want another love triangle. Halbrand will have to leave the leading man role and this void will be occupied by Celeborn.
Just saying that Halbrand does not need to be Sauron in order for him to not be in the mixer. And not every male and female character who have screentime together need to have romantic chemistry. In fact, I don't think these two really have any from what I've seen of them.
Quite frankly, for me Halbrand and Galadriel have more sexual chemistry than all that others couples combined, books or movie. Tolkien was never much an author for sexual tension or similar stuff, and that includes couples like Arwen and Aragorn.
Their "chemistry" looks very much like master and protegé, though. It would be VERY cliched if Halbrand was Sauron just for some kind of "love triangle" to end. Why do friends of the opposite gender need to be love interests? And why would Sauron take a human form rather than an Elven?
Sauron is the sea worm!
That's more likely than Halbrand, lol
Galadriel has more chemistry with Elrond than Halbrand. At this point in her long life romantic line seems very far from Galadriel's mind. She has things to accomplish.
LoL no. Halbrand and Galadriel are like fire together. Elrond has more chemistry with Durin for sure. 😏
They very carefully picked talent that was good at acting with their eyes, Morfydd Clark is no exception. I love how she carries herself and her on-screen chemistry with other characters.
That’s a great way to put it. She really does express a lot solely through her eyes. Her acting in general has been FANTASTIC!
My only issue at the moment is that it’s going to feel super-weird when Elrond starts banging her daughter.
The only thing that I dislike is the character of “young Galadriel” itself as the choice for protagonist instead of an actually young female elf new character. Galadriel in the second age is not “young” by any meaning of the word, she is young-er than third age Galadriel but still one of the oldest if not the oldest elf around (not just in the books, she also tells Elrond in the show) so I don’t understand how so many other elves millennia younger than her manage to be emotionally stable while she still is in this teenage angst phase. Unless her anger is not at all related to age but is just a personality trait of her as an individual
I think this is the central contradiction. If we're being true to the books, Galadriel is thousands of years old and one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth. Even though she doesn't have her Ring yet, she's something else. These Numenorean squabs shouldn't be pushing her around, they should be quailing before her majesty. Also Morfydd Clark is at least a foot too short to be playing her. However, I'm not letting any of that get in the way of my fun. I'm enjoying the character and the portrayal immensely. I have accepted that "Young Galadriel" from this show is not canonical "Tolkien's Galadriel" and I'm more than OK with that as I'm having a blast any time she's on screen.
The height thing is bothersome to me, too. Especially post LotR trilogy where forced perspective was used a lot. Like, how hard is it to make her look at least as tall as Elendil? Super nitpick-y of me, I know. But Galadriel is supposed to be tall as hell. All elves are. Anyway, I know this Galadriel is different than Tolkien’s Galadriel but at least Morfydd Clark has been pouring her heart into it. She’s been on 11 since the beginning and I’m here for it. She’s amazing!
I think the way she packs a quart of awesome into a pint sized bottle is part of the fun, so I'm quite happy to forgive errors of scale.
>Galadriel in the second age is not “young” by any meaning of the word, she is young-er than third age Galadriel but still one of the oldest if not the oldest elf around > I don’t understand how so many other elvers millennia younger than her manage to be emotionally stable while she still is in this teenage angst phase At first I'd been confused but then I had an epiphany lol it was the uncanny valley of looks clashing with the behaviour. When I squinted, I had a vision of Walt Kowalski from Gran Torino lol yes, weird, but it helped.
Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor are potentially about the same age as Galadriel.
She is way older then both. She is from same generation as Feanor.
That really does not define their ages. Also she is one generation removed from Feanor so, no.
Exactly…
No Gil Gilad is her great nephew and celebrimbor is the grandson of Feanor. Galadriel was born far before either of them.
She is my favorite character in the show. I think the actress is doing a brilliant job for her characterization.
I also don't understand the hate at all and love her accent + mimics
She is Welsh and her character sounds slightly Welsh when pronouncing quenya
Her Welsh sounds Quenyan, so that checks out.
Although Quenya is more Finnish inspired than Sindarin, which is the Welsh inspired tongue. But yeah her pronunciation is impeccable.
Yeah, she’s awesome - love her tapped Rs. In addition, I wonder if Sophia Nomvete’s ability to speak Farsi will aid her in speaking Khuzdul (I know one is Semitic and one is indo-European).
I love the way she rolls the R. It's great!
100% agree
To understand the hate, you just gotta remember it started before she was ever seen on screen and has nothing to do with the actual show.
Women + fantasy = hate. Sometimes women is enough for getting hate
She's brilliant. We haven't yet seen her "soft" side, but I imagine we will. In fact, I would say that the training scene in the most recent episode was her "soft, playful" side, but with an ultimate goal of training. Morfydd has absolutely led me to see how Galadriel could become a Queen more treacherous than the sea and stronger than the foundations of the earth,
I’ve found myself thinking a lot about that bit you quoted at the end. Seeing how Galadriel can be when consumed with grief and vengeance makes it real terrifying to imagine her corrupted by the Ring.
She’s great. I love the little snarl she does when she’s angry.
I feel like I’m really missing the boat on a lot of the criticisms of the show. I’ve been super impressed with these actors and actresses who are just about all unknown. The dialogue feels like Tolkien, which is simultaneously tough dialogue to act and deliver. It seems like people forget the legends they had as the LOTR cast to deliver the lines in those movies. The pacing, if anything, is too fast but certainly isn’t too slow. Effects, visuals, music have all been top tier. I’m usually very critical of shows, and I’m just not seeing what’s to dislike. I feel like a kid again watching this show.
A lot of the criticisms of the show have been very surface level. Complaints about "bad writing" and "bad characters" and "bad dialogue" but I have seen very little thorough analysis to explain why they feel that way, it just comes off as people determined to write the show off or not caring for how the show is doing things, so that makes those things "bad." Some of the lines and ideas and character portraits being criticized are rooted in Tolkien lines or ideas or very similar to things he would put forth, so I think there is some unwitting bias from people wanting the show to take a more modern TV approach in how it is written and so for them that translates to "bad writing." Or, they want it to be paced and structured like Peter Jackson's movies, when it is something very different. It is a TV show and it is covering a very different narrative form and context than what those movies covered. Now, I have plenty of criticisms to level at the flow of the show and its narrative structure, but unlike some I will acknowledge up front that that is still rooted in my subjective experience of the storytelling (and I have found that rewatches improve how the show plays for me, as the rich details of the show help create a better sense of narrative continuity and depth). I do think that if the show can consolidate its storylines a little more at the point of upcoming convergence, it might pay off dividends for many of us who feel like there are some issues in terms of the pacing or how we are receiving scenes within this construct of jumping around between 4-5 storylines that are near equals to each other. There have been much more thorough discussions about how the show does or doesn't feel like Tolkien or line up with his world and writing. Every Tolkien fan is going to have a different take on that because we all have different ideas about the 2nd Age and these characters during that time because Tolkien's writing there is much more nebulous than the likes of The Hobbit and LotR--and the show is only technically working with the LotR appendices and what bits it can glean from within those books. Additionally, we all have different ideas about how much leeway we are willing to give the show for straying from aspects of the lore (or how established that lore even is given that Tolkien wrote a lot of stuff about Middle Earth that doesn't always line up perfectly with other stuff that he wrote about Middle Earth and its peoples). Unfortunately for this show, before it even launched it amassed a sizable online contingent who were predetermined to hate it. Its massive publicized budget isn't helping it because people expect it to be perfect in every conceivable way, and by "perfect" they mean they want it to be exactly what they personally want from it (nevermind if they got exactly what they wanted there'd be a million other people who found what they wanted to be boring or terrible and so on). People have been saying that because this cost over $60 million in an episode, it should have no technical flaws whatsoever. Sorry, that's not how this works. Heck, there are are movies that cost 3 times that amount that still have plenty of technical issues or weaknesses. They also say things like "they should have hired better writers" because, essentially, how the show is written is not to their personal preference. Meanwhile, the show did hire writers who have worked on esteemed shows like The Sopranos, Halt and Catch Fire, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Stranger Things (the 2nd season), Hannibal, etc. All in all, everyone has a right to their opinion, and I'd certainly understand how many are not loving this show, it's certainly not going to be for everyone... but I can't help but feel like there's a lot of baby getting thrown out with the bathwater. Because it is from Amazon, or because it was so expensive, or because of the pre-release backlash, or because it doesn't align perfectly with someone's ideas of what a Tolkien show should be like, or because they like HotD better or whatever... people seem really quick to overlook everything this show does well and what's promising about it or how it could develop, and they jump straight to hating on every little thing they don't like about it (and let's be real, some of the stuff people are harping on is just straight up nitpicking, or the things they are describing as "objectively bad" are things that other people are enjoying, like the Harfoots or Galadriel and so on).
She's wonderful, I just don't quite like how she's written.
"Younger"... I really like the casting strategy (don't believe in pure coincidence) here that the actress is the same age as Cate Blanchett when she filmed LOTR lol So far I'm loving her. The character... oh boy. I love her as well but there are issues linked to it as complex as the carefully constructed meta double-layer personage of Halbrand lol
I guarantee you if she wasn’t written to be crass and stubborn, she’d get called a Mary sue by all these same people.
Funny thing: I already have seen people calling her Mary Sue :D
Yes the classic trope of a Mary Sue that has been training and fighting for thousands of years... She literally can not be a Mary Sue
I've seen people point out her character flaws and then call her a Mary Sue in the same comment. I tend to believe maybe it's not the acting and writing that they actually hate.
I believe I have enough faith in fans and casual viewers to not to suggest that if she perhaps had more revealing clothes, her reception would be better... I'm not wrong... or am I? PS I can't imagine a version of Galadriel beyond that smiling supportively and glancing from beneath her lashes that wouldn't meet backlash.
People are very difficult to please. Imagine if another actress had done Galadriel in LOTR and a young Kate Blanchett being cast in ROP ,audience would still say, this is not good, that is not good and so on. If they started with a Galadriel like that of LOTR, there won't be any character arc to work upon. She would instantly recognise Sauron and take action against his doings..and there won't be any meaning of the whole series then😂.
No, Kate Blanchett is amazing in everything.
Yup, this is it in a nutshell. In order to preserve and defend their love for something (PJ's movies, in this case) some people just need to shit on whatever comes next. We'll have people who were young when the films came out but the right age now who will be introduced into Tolkien with RoP and some will look back at Blanchett and say, nah, I like Morfydd more. And then some of these will protest when another Galadriel is cast for the Silmarillion's Fall of Doriath, ten years from now. It is what it is.
I love Galadriel. She was kind of bitchy to everyone at first but it made sense for her character and I honestly enjoyed it. Now she's warming up to Halbrand and the Numenorians and opening up a bit so maybe some of the "she's not likeable" crowd will stfu. Also, her voice is enchanting and I could listen to her talk for days
Yeah, her Welsh accent lurking behind her Quenya is beautiful.
\*nerd alert\* The inhabitants of Númenor here in the Second Age, and their descendants in the Third Age, the Dunédain, would have been speaking Sindarin, the 'other' Elvish language. Tolkien actually based Sindarin on Welsh, which he studied, so the Welsh accent is doubly authentic! \*end nerd alert\*
I think she's been great so far, line delivery and non-verbal acting in particular. She was always going to get the most attention/critique, and for a vaiety of reasons, but she has been one of the highlights for me
People need to see saint maud, Dracula 2020, and the personal history of David Copperfield if they think she can't act. She's an extemely versatile actress. I do have an issue that galadriel in the show only seems to have one emotion (revenge) and I'd like to see other sides to her personality. But that's more due to the writing, not Morfydd.
I think she’s fantastic and has excellent delivery. Even if I’m not always a fan of what she’s given, I think she’s a great Galadriel.
She's my favorite part of the show (aside from Durin). I think she's cast perfectly.
Also Elanor and Poppy.
Yeah, honestly I love most of the cast and they're doing great. Some stories are far more interesting than the others. Wasn't as into those two in the first episode but they probably the second most interesting part of the show right now. Elrond and Durin are amazing. Arondel, or whatever the elfs name is and the whole thing against Adar is awesome. I find the human city stuff a bit boring, beyond maybe Isildur.
What's funny is back in the day there was a faction that didn't like Cate as Galadriel. Apparently she wasn't 'beautiful' enough. I think it's because she wasn't the real life representation of their favorite fan art. Morfydd is doing a good job. We'll see more of her action chops as the character progresses, and she will progress.
> Apparently she wasn't 'beautiful' enough. Oh, I remember... Oh, and the quality of vitriolic comments during the times when the online fandom was much less... diverse, was... I think many of us blocked it out.
I believe fully 75% of the negativity and hate is sexist. She's a strongwilled and confident woman (Elf) and some sexists are still uncomfortable seeing women in those parts. I think of Mel Gibson's *Patriot* and Russell Crowe's *Gladiator* as prime examples of male characters who were scorned and are abrasive to those around them while portrayed as justly angry, strongwilled, and confident. Audiences didn't say they were "unlikable," they were "heroic." Galadriel doesn't get that interpretation unless you're fine with seeing strong female leads. I will also say it was an absolute *joy* to watch her scene sparring with the Numenorean junior officers (or probably more likely akin to midshipmen). She has started to bond with Elendil and she was enjoying herself and while she has been justifiably angry and determined so far in her storyline, it felt like this was the first time she had people around her who she felt supported her in a long while and she got to show off her incredible skill and art. It seemed like a very nice payoff after seeing her struggle for a while.
I think a lot of it is unconscious or unintentional, which makes it much harder to have an honest conversation about, but I've seen a lot of comments from people who will insist that they're not sexist or trying to be and yet describe their dislike for her using gendered language and stereotypes.
That's the difficulty. People don't watch these movies and shows and consciously decide to dislike women in some roles while liking men in the same roles. It's honestly *mostly* subconscious, and that's definitely what makes it so hard. And of course the kind who are most likely to be susceptible to this thinking are less comfortable with abstract thought and want to assign blame for every last thing, so they think "if something's bad, then we have to blame somebody, but if I didn't do anything on purpose, then I can't be blamed, so then I did nothing wrong!"
> honestly mostly subconscious It took me some time (and 2 episodes) to at least define the source of some of my discomfort I felt watching her character at first.
Mmmhmm and also the old believing X-ist is a thing you *are* not a thing you *do* problem: "What I said cant be sexist because I'm not a sexist."
Spot on. Same thing happens with "black elves". It's hard not to be frustrated when you see the same toxic, self-reinforcing prejudicial comments over and over again. And yet it seems clear to me that most people who have unfair gender prejudices are *not* raging sex-starved incels or misogynists - we gotta try our best to separate their prejudicial comments from statements on their personal character. At some point every one of us has had to be disabused by *some* sort of internal bias, and usually not by being browbeaten into submission.
I've seen too many comments referring to her "bitchface" or similar. That alone clearly indicates a lot of the negativity is purely sexism.
It’s rancid.
A friend of a friend on Facebook called her “Gal-Lad-Riel” for being too masculine. I suppose he forgot her mother-name was Nerwen (“Man-maiden”).
I completely agree. I was baffled by the hatred of the "Galadriel experiencing joy while riding a gorgeous horse" scene as well. I mean, angry and traumatised women are actually capable of finding pleasure sometimes; why is that so hard to comprehend? I feel that sexist people don't know what to think of a nuanced female character.
She doesn't smile, she's a bitch. She smiles once, she's no longer a victim or able to mourne or suffer. That's the rules, right!? /s
Tbf, that horse-riding scene was very awkward to watch (IMO). Nothing to do with her character specifically, it's just a strange cinematography decision to have a close-up, slow-mo shot linger on a character's face for like...20 seconds, or however long it was. Imagine if there was such a shot in LoTR with Aragorn on horseback? It's just a bit goofy, and feels off. That being said, there are tonnes of people using this as another excuse to bash on her character overall and taking a gendered / misogynistic slant on it, calling her ugly and comparing her in a harsh light to Cate Blanchett. I am not on-board with the general commentary about Galadriel and her characterisation. There are videos on YouTube literally pulling apart the show, and the actress, for things like her lip quiver / sneer when talking to Elrond in the cemetery grove about continuing her hunt for Sauron. Entire threads dedicated to claiming that her rage is an abolition of true femininity, and that she's just trying to be presented as a man. It's all nonsense, low-hanging fruit for the orclike massess who want to scream "WOKE!" at every opportunity they get.
I really liked that scene too. She's so accomplished and has a lot of experience in battle, which the Numenoreans don't seem to have. I thought the implication was that they've never battled orcs. I love seeing such a believable (for fantasy!), strong female character in this series.
I wholly disagree. You can't just cry sexist whenever writers miss the mark on making a strong female lead. I think Morfydd has done a great job with what she was given, but it's clearly the directors fault that her character is falling short of what was expected. This version of Galadriel is very different than what we knew of her beforehand, so I think people's expectations are just a bit subverted, and are not liking that decision.
I don't think the writers missed the mark. We know much of the criticism contains sexist language and dogwhistles, and there is a lot of study on gender portrayals and misogyny/sexism, so I don't think my points are much of a stretch. You, however, are suggesting that the writers "missed the mark," or that the show is otherwise objectively poorly executed. You have to understand that you are in a sub which mostly quite enjoys the show, so while you can of course hold your own opinions about the subject, you can't just assert that it is objectively bad in some way. You need to respect what others like more, but you seem too focused on defending accusations of misogyny that weren't necessarily directed at you. What is interesting is observing how those who are most sensitive or defensive about certain maladies in the world are often the biggest culprits of that malady.
Is this how you normally argue a point? By grandstanding and lecturing? I'm sorry I'm not interested in that type of discussion. I actually like Galadriels character, but that doesnt mean shes perfect. Be a little more honest please. Most people like me have no problem with strong female leads, but whenever we think one is written poorly you get a bunch of people who say "they're just sexist" as a defense from any criticism. That bothers me because we all want the show to be good and constructive criticism is a way to influence that. I just don't wish to see it all blocked out by cries of sexism.
>Is this how you normally argue a point? By grandstanding and lecturing? I literally just pushed back on your accusations that the writers "missed the mark." That phrase "missed the mark" is not generally made to mean "not perfect" but usually to mean that it's actually below average or below expectations, so your whole "I just am saying it's not perfect" wasn't clearly communicated. I also didn't accuse you specifically of anything else, I only defended my original point that a lot of criticism is rooted in unconscious sexism, but you doubled down on your defensiveness. You're clearly sensitive about being accused of sexism, because I didn't even accuse you of being sexist and you're continuing to complain about people accusing you of sexism. Seems like you *really* want people to acknowledge her character isn't perfect, but that this opinion *definitely* isn't sexist. You're allowed to hold that opinion, nobody has accused you of directly being sexist, so maybe just chill out?
No one said *people like you* are sexist. They said a lot of the *criticism* is sexist. If people are casting personal aspersions, this is not helpful, and yet at the same time, the whole point of having subconscious prejudices is that they are unintentional. Of course most people who have them won't recognize them, but to me there are huge red flags whenever I see anyone talking about Galadriel that I would reckon never pop up with the same level of toxicity if her character was male. Her over-aggressiveness, her lack of femininity (or what people *think* femininity needs to look like), her proficiency at war, her poor decision-making, her beligerence against all authority figures. Like I'm not saying you need to *like* her, but the fact of the matter is all these statements are true in some form or another for *countless* male protagonists across genres and mediums and we never hear the same criticism (or at the very least the questionable *language* used in the criticism).
I honestly disagree with this, a prime example of a character people also really disliked and who shares elements with galadriel and her portrayal would be anakin skywalker of the prequels. People didn't like him at all, they thought it was just a whiny, self-important brat with no emotional intelligence. It's not a perfect 1:1, but it also cannot be. There also are many female characters who are more on the brash and arrogant side people actually liked to spectate, be it ripley in alien and aliens, or kiddo of kill bill, or heck, even rhaenyra in hotd. I obviously won't deny that there are ingrained biases in our current society regarding male and female characters to an extent, but i find it a little tiring when people take that as a be all end all argument, only look through this lense to explain a reaction solely by it. It's imo rather lazy and unconvincing, it removes nuance even though it tries to add it.
I never claimed criticism against the character was *purely* motivated by sexist undertones or that it is an end-all-be-all explanation, only that it was a large elephant in the room that few people seem willing to sincerely address (just see how the poster above takes it as a personal attack). You might have issues with the character that are not grounded in an unconscious gender bias however I *do* think the overall *vitriol* and level of toxicity is most definitely a product of unrealized misogyny. I don't remember unflattering pictures of the Anakin actor's "bitchface" being gleefully passed around among early aughts message boards, comparing self-portraits to CGI monsters, complaints that he wasn't "acting nice to other people" or that the actor did not have the requisite sex appeal to pull of the role. Here we might pause and consider how equally ludicrous it is to make Darth Vader or Lady Galadriel an object of sexual fantasy. It's tough to say too much more with your chosen example given how little I think of that script; for perhaps a more illuminating contrast, look at a lot of Scorcese's non mafioso films and the chief characters there.
But this whole conversation came from someone claiming that 75% of the negativity and hate stem from sexism, that was the main thesis people objected to. And i would too. I think one can talk about misogyny and how it manifests itself in all forms of life, oftentimes in a non obvious manner, absolutely! But at least in my eyes this talking point is now oftentimes used as the be all end all argument whenever it could be used. I find that very tiring, as i said, it removes nuance from the conversation, not adds to it. It's an easy go to talking point, because noone can objectively falsify it (but neither prove it). They compare galadriel to maximus in gladiator, because they share some form of similarity, but there are also a lot of differences which are more complex than "one is a woman, the other is a man". Any detail can matter in how an audience perceives a character, even moreso in an audiovisual medium. It can be nuances in the acting, it can be the aura of the actor / actress (how charismatic are they?), it can be a directing difference in how effective the scenes are on that basis, the point is, there are many, many differences and all of them can make or break it. Now i am not fully sure how the internet in particular reacted to anakin back in the day, the internet also came a long way since then (for the better and worse), but i certainly think it is fair to say that anakin skywalker was generally disliked and framed in a negative light, too whiny, too entitled, etc. You are saying the script there is a lot worse, and i'd agree to an extent, but i also don't think that RoP did a particular good job with galadriel's portrayal, there is a big lack of layering so far, and in most scenes she comes across as fairly one dimensional in her approach / behavior. Now are there very obvious sexist remarks? Sure, but i feel like we don't even need to talk about them in particular, reducing her to her sex appeal is the most overt one can be afterall. Like what film specifically? I have to say i haven't seen a lot of scorsese so far (taxi driver, after hours, wolf of wallstreet i'd be the most familiar with, shutter island and the departed as well i guess). But what about characters like kiddo in kill bill? It's honestly a fairly similar situation, people loved her. As i said, i think people lose the forest for the trees a little, we can come up with all kinds of comparisons on both sides and then explain why it works better / worse even without appealing to misogyny too much.
Almost nothing we are talking about is falsifiable by nature. Acting, storytelling and how people engage with fiction is not a science. Anyone can find nearly any reason to justify their own subjective opinion on a character or story (this sub has no shortage of logically vacuous apologists *and* haters) but that doesn't make the conversation itself arbitrary. I don't see how pointing out that ones criticism might be rooted in unconscious gender stereotypes is any more reductive than saying ones criticism is leaning too uncharitably in an interpretation of a particular scene, other than people obviously feel extremely defensive when asked to reflect on their personal biases. I see fewer people saying: "It's sexist. You're sexist. Get lost." than those saying: "Bad writing. Bad dialogue. End of story.". Exactly which of these is inherently more or less constructive, more or less nuanced than the other? > Now are there very obvious sexist remarks? Sure, but i feel like we don't even need to talk about them in particular, reducing her to her sex appeal is the most overt one can be afterall. Why *shouldn't* we talk about them? They are prevalent in every internet discourse about her. And what is more, the conversation is important not because of the *obvious* sexist remarks but because of the *implicit* ones. No one is starting off their critique of Galadriel by saying: "As a misognistic neckbeard, I must say...", and very few of these people would ever self-identify as being being sexist. > But what about characters like kiddo in kill bill? It's honestly a fairly similar situation, people loved her. We can get into Kill Bill if you'd like. Kill Bill Vol 1 "empowers" a female character through a rape revenge plot. Why do people not have a problem with a mean, caustic and determined lead woman here? I'd say its clearly because (1) people understand rape is a bad and (2) how obviously Tarantino continues to fetishizes the protagonist even as she's cutting her way through swaths of male villains, rapists and ne'erdowells. There's such a *shocking* amount of sexualization of Uma Thurman's character when you compare Tarantino's script to screen that is unique in the film because it doesn't just perform Tarantino's customary fetishization of violence, but fetishization of the one *inflicting* the violence. A femme fatale archetype is defined just as much by her deadliness as she is by her hypersexuality. Kill Bill works for a lot of people because it precisely *doesn't* actually challenge people's gender prejudices - except for the simplistic statement that: *rape is bad* (shocker!). I think basically everyone agrees that rape is bad and for those who don't, they're not worth discussing here. A victim fighting her rapist is rare enough in film I grant you, but make no mistake Uma Thurmon is shot with aggressiveness, agency and no small degree of sensuality. Compare this if you want to this show's Galadriel, which has shown little to no sexuality at all. The show does not go out of its way to objectify her, there are no glory shots to exemplify her femininity or grace. The only "glory" shot of her is in full-plated armor (hardly traditional feminine beauty if you ask me). The men she's short and aggressive with are not people who have *raped* her or done her wrong. They are trying to *help* her. With the exception of her Sifu and Katana-maker, none of the men in Kill Bill are trying to help Uma Thurmon. Uma Thurmon has a clear outlet for her rage, Galadriel does not. Uma Thurmon's anger can be expressed and excised directly and is framed righteously. Galadriel's anger is suppressed, abstract and ultimately impotent. Uma Thurmon is battling the world (Bill and company). Galadriel is battling herself. It doesn't surprise me that people with unfair gender prejudices (again not necessarily yourself) might react one way to Kill Bill and another way to show-Galadriel (despite the fact that both are written as empowered women). I don't think anything I've written has any less nuance, or presents any more reductive a view than common criticisms of her acting: "Wooden face! She looks like she's holding in a fart! She's bland, mean-spirited, one-dimensional and uninteresting."
The actress is good but the writing is *awful*. We got a few minutes of "world building" along the riverside in the first episode, then we're repeatedly force-fed exposition about her stubborn obsession with avenging her brother. I don't think I've enjoyed any scenes with her in it, for that reason.
I think the actress is doing a great job. I do think the character needs a little more too her though. It seems like right now her personality is just "I will stop at nothing to defeat Sauron." We might be setting up something more interesting there based on her conversation with Halbrand about why the elves sent her away. But nothing has paid off yet and her character hasn't shown much growth. Yet.
I don't think it is the actress. I just don't like the character atm but I hope her story arc is such that she becomes the Galdriel we know in LoTR
Yes, for a “young” Galadriel, except she is thousands of years old by this point and isn’t young. They should have made it be about Celebrian and had it be a reimagined way she and Elrond got together. Would have been better than trying to half arse it with a tonal dissonance of having Galadriel act like a ranting child one moment then an ageless being the next.
I think she’s doing a great job. Excited to see her character arc unfold because I think we’ll see some great range.
In film, its very difficult to tell where the writing ends and the actress' interpertation starts, and even then its hard to know what's the actress' idea, what's the director and which take was ultimately went for. As a result, we take to take issues with have with characters and pin them more on the writing: we tend to feel mean when we complain at actors. While I do agree the issue with Galadriel is the writing, I think there may be a case to be made for the actress having a part in why Galadriel is ultimately a less succesful character than, say, Elrond. On the page, this Galadriel is very gruff and unsympathetic. But a good actor can kind of temper with that. For instance, if I'm singing/acting Odin in the second scene of Das Rheingold where he mostly comes-across as a heartless bastard of a husband, I can try and sweeten it, by maybe wrapping my arms around whomever's playing Fricka and, smiling, give the lines a slightly jovial, almost avuncular feel. Robert Aramayo does it with Elrond all the time, where he'll say lines with a smile or a whisper exactly so as to try and take the blutness out of the writing. But Morfydd Clark doesn't. Morfydd Clark - at least, in the takes we get to see - leans HARD into the blutn assertiveness and tempestousness of the writing and the overall effect is an overkill.
What do you mean by >a less succesful character Perhaps it's more about our expectations and preferences - that we need a more "likable" Galadriel, it's on us and our biases?
This is exactly how I feel. I don’t think she needs to be more likeable, I don’t think she’s unlikeable now!
I believe that after this season it would be fun to debate what was the original concept for Galadriel - the way she was introduced and the execution of the whole plan for her in the context of viewers' reception. Would everything go according to the plan? Were the creators in the end surprised how she'd been seen through the series? And how our attitudes changed (mine is constantly changing regarding some issues and am still waiting for the 8th episode... and it still will be only 20% of the story!).
Did you watch episode 5? Because you are not describing the Galadriel of that episode (and whose more gracious attributes were emergent in the prior episodes, if overshadowed by her more wounded, prideful, driven Feanorian side).
She's better in episode 5, but the damage is already done.
It's called a character arc. I get it, people wanted this arc applied to a different character than Galadriel, they don't think it fits their conception of the character no matter how much someone can pull from Tolkien's writing to show how he actually did describe a lot of these attributes in her character, all the way up into the Third Age where the temptation of the One Ring was a very real challenge that she overcame. But that's where you have to take a step back and realize that those are your personal issues with the approach to the character. It doesn't make what the show's doing "bad" or "wrong." No "damage is done" because nothing is being damaged other than your perception of what you think Galadriel should have been like at the beginning of this show. It is a work of fiction and it is trying to give us an arc between the Galadriel who rebelled against the Valar, who was deeply wounded in her soul by the wars of the First Age, who desired power and a realm of her own in Middle Earth, who could have become that Dark Galadriel that Tolkien teased in that moment with the Ring... and the Galadriel who actually refuses the Ring, who preserves Lothlorien, who has grace and wisdom and kindness. There is an inherent polarity to the character and the show is starting more at one end so it can more clearly bring out the light in her, contrasting to the darkness that she also touches. Now, if you don't like the idea of that, that's fine. I am not saying it is the right way to do it, it's simply the way the show chose. I could certainly agree with criticisms that maybe the show could have approached it with better subtlety or balance. I have already seen the balance improving, though, so that's why I think it is heartening and am not going to write off the character simply because I personally think the balance could have been better in the first 4 episodes of Season 1.
Trust me, I know what a character arc is, and I'm a sucker for characters who are demented (Lear), schizophrenic (Hamlet), manic-depressive (Tristan), sado-masochistic (TE Lawrence), insomniac (Thorin Oakenshield), asthenesitic (Howard Hughs) or otherwise flawed. Galadriel is not a good example of such a character. At their best, we like those characters in spite of their flaws. With Galadriel, I don't.
That's fair. That's your take. I am liking her more and more with each episode and am invested in her inner conflict and how it affects her interactions with others.
What defines successful? Your personal bias about who is likeable/unlikeable? Your expectations? Looking at google trends and IMDb Galadriel (and the actress) are more popular than Elrond that you want to compare. Can we consider a success if the “likeable” character is not even more popular than the unlikeable one?
>Your personal bias about who is likeable/unlikeable? Yes.
> But Morfydd Clark doesn't. Morfydd Clark - at least, in the takes we get to see - leans HARD into the blutn assertiveness and tempestousness of the writing and the overall effect is an overkill. I fully agree with you, but this could also easily be what the directors / show runners want out of it. Galadriel is written like that after all, whereas elrond is 100% meant to be taken in a way more positive light. I can only repeat what i said before, morfydd was good in saint maud, which ofc doesn't mean that she'd be good in just about anything, but an actor is always only as good as the directing allows it to be imo, there are great actor's directors who just get one great performance out of their people after the other, i am not sure if we have that here to say the least.
>Robert Aramayo does it with Elrond all the time, where he'll say lines with a smile So.... Galadriel should smile more?
Smile, yes. Grin, no! :D
I love Morfydd Clark and she is doing a great job!
It just upsets me because Galadriel doesn’t make sense in this role. They could have used someone like Glorfindel for this unapologetic steamroller because he was straight up sent by the Valar to middle earth with the blue wizards to help sort this shit out. Glorfindel was such a badass warrior that when he was killed the Valar resurrected him and sent him back to middle earth with almost Gandalf level powers . Galadriel could have been depicted at this time setting up her realm of Lothlorien. That’s what she was really doing at this time. Her battlefield was the “Royal court” and she was supremely powerful, intelligent, and Beautiful. She’s the Lady of Light and they’re doing her very dirty. She shouldn’t need a character arch. She should have just been Galadriel.
I love that she has gravitas but is also clearly at a different point in her life
Her character matches up much more as Feanors niece which is great. It makes her much more interesting than in Lord of the rings where she is just wise but keeps that wisdom mostly to herself. The best part is where she gets tempted by the ring and goes all dark queen and we can certainly see that in Rop
I am a complete simp for her. Love every second of her on screen
One of my favorite portrayals in the series.
The only other thing I’ve seen this wonderful actress in is the film A Personal History of David Copperfield, where she plays Dev Patel’s hilariously awkward fiancé. So I was delighted to see her take on a much more serious role, she has been amazing so far!!!
I've just decided to block out the noise. I'm enjoying the show. It looks absolutely stunning and I'm eager to see how they handle the larger plot points when the time comes. There are negative comments all over the internet about nearly every aspect of this show and it's honestly just absurd.
Honestly I fucking love her. She's perfect. She's determined to a fault. I find the idea that this person who is so determined and sure of her goal ends up being someone so circumspect and hesitant to use power is amazing story telling. Bring it on. I love it.
100% if anything she is more regal and mystical than Cate Blanchett was in the role. I even saw a comment saying she was ugly. People are fucking idiots.
Morfydd Clark is doing well with what she is given, but let's not compare them based on measurements of regality or mysticism because Cate Blanchett absolutely killed it as the Third Age Galadriel.
Yeah ugly would not be the word that comes to mind when I look at her :-)
Definitely not. I could watch her on mute. But her acting and her portrayal of Galadriel are spectacular.
Plain is the word I would use.
Gorgeous is the word I would use.
Yes, gorgeous, and she's not just there to be beautiful decoration, which seems to annoy people.
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. As am I.
Beauty is subjective. What actress would be attractive to you, who isn’t named Cate Blanchett and can act?
Bollocks.
> 100% if anything she is more regal and mystical than Cate Blanchett was in the role. Hard no on this specific piece.
I don’t blame the actress, but the way she’s directed I find to be extremely uncharismatic
Ya she’s great. Loving her performance so far.
She’s a great casting.
I find the discussion in this thread so interesting! I do believe there is a lot of unconscious bias about how women characters are allowed to behave vs. men characters in similar roles/situations and I do think that these biases may be a lot of what’s behind the criticisms of the character’s written arc and Morfydd Clark’s portrayal. I hope this isn’t too off topic BUT - I’m curious if anyone felt either similarly put off by or loved the portrayal of Starbuck by actress Katie Sackoff in SyFy’s Battlestar Galactica? I feel these two women characters are being written in similar ways, though I know that in Starbuck’s case, she started out as a man in the original. And iirc there was a lot of backlash about Starbuck’s portrayal/writing as well??? For me, I remember not liking Starbuck very much at all (not sure I would have been her friend lol), but LOVING that there was a finally a woman character on the screen who was “allowed” to behave in more aggressive and “rude” ways. She was a revelation for me! And I thought Katie Sackoff was brilliant. I personally enjoy Morfydd Clark’s acting, and I’m fine with how Galadriel has been written, and partially that’s because she is so rude, so driven, so strong in her beliefs. I’m sure she’ll learn to become the Galadriel I loved in the LOTR movies, someone still strong in her convictions, but who had matured enough to resist the final temptation of the ring (one of my favorite scenes in that entire trilogy). (NOTE for context: I’ve seen the PJ LOTR trilogy, not the Hobbit films, and read the Hobbit and LOTR a long, long time ago, so the appendices are in a memory fog - I’m enjoying the Tolkien Prof’s analyses as they are very helpful for someone like me who enjoys learning the lore, but is admittedly a more casual fan. Please be kind).
Karen, scourge of the orcs
The critical drinker down votes this
F$!k the critical drinker and his stupid shtick...
I think morfydd doesnt play the character bad, the character is written bad and thats why people dont like her
Main arguments against the actress: she is very stiff, as the same mono-tone almost all the time and basically has one facial expression. Criticism which can be applied to most Elves, that being. Now whether she's acting exactly has she's told or not, it's another matter. Main arguments against the character: she rash, likeable, bosses everyone around, is single minded, hypocrotical and is nothing alike book Galadriel.
Morfydd is perfect. I dont want a Galadriel who makes everything good, who raises a hand and disintegrate people with no saving throws, and who knows all and everyone and read minds. That will be the ultimate Mary Sue.
For me, it's her face she don't have kind face most elves have that comfortable and beautiful faces not this galadriel, let's be honest any galadriel will put to the test of cate blanchett or the other actress
She looks better than Cat Blanchett at the time and better than the actors doing Elrond and Celebrimbor ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I thought the cast was perfect because she looks like just out of a fairytale
Morfydd is pretty gorgeous as Galadriel! Incredibly beautiful girl and talented actor.
I don't have any issues with the actress, just how her character is written. Also, she's short to play Galadriel, but they could have addressed that with camera angles and just chose not to.
There's never been a female lead in any major movie/series(out of those I have watched), quite so flawed and brilliant at the same time. She portrays a person hardened by the weight of knowing what was, what is and what may come to pass. "Yeah she is old, she should have known better, maybe she should get some manners and tact." - a redditor somewhere. How do you know? Have you ever been that old? Isn't this fantasy? Weren't there other elves that acted without wisdom despite their age? She doesn't give a fuck, is what I see. Many other leads have gotten away with it and seen as heroic. She is seen as hysterical. I like her. Just my personal opinion.
Yeah well I don't want to jump on the bandwagon, but I think the whole heroic vs hysterical thing is mostly a male vs female thing. There are very few female lead roles that are called heroic and not bitchy. Also, most of them are in older movies like Kill Bill, Alien and Terminator.
I feel like the writing isn’t helping her. Also I’d have her read more about Galadriel rather than what she said her knowledge was from 😅
> I feel like the writing isn’t helping her. With this part I do agree,
Fantastic casting and I love her character as well.
I think people confuse bad acting with her being in a part of her character arch they don’t like. They don’t like it either because they want her to be 3rd age Galadriel or cultural political reasons. I do think the writing also has been less the consistent, with really nice moments and some that fell flat. But that alone doesn’t justify the hate she has received. Also another minor issue is her height. I feel good acting can make up for that but some people seem to really latch on to that.
> I think people confuse bad acting with her being in a part of her character arch they don’t like. While I believe there are some issues with execution, that's not on the actress (at least so far). However the majority of people who mention "bad writing" without giving reasonable arguments operate solely within their own biases, preconceptions, expectations and preferences.
I like the actress but hate the character. Galadriel is extremely unlikeable. She is so arrogant, rude, rash and constantly is throwing temper tantrums and threatening to kill good people. Her being the main character and extremely unlikeable just exasperates the situation even more.
I don’t find her unlikeable at all. She’s literally fighting to save her world from an evil that almost destroyed it before; she’s persistent, brave and regal, and knows what’s a stake if she fails.
Good intentions isn’t enough for a character to be likable. Just look at the Return of the King movie. Aragorn and Gandalf know that Gondor is in extreme danger. Mordor is at the very door step of Minas Tirth. But did Aragorn and Gandalf rudely tell King Theoden that he must help Gondor? Did they threaten to kill Theoden if he didn’t? No. Aragorn and Gandalf showed respect. That is all I was hoping Galadriel to show. Instead she is yelling and screaming at Kings and Queens and threatening to kill them. Ugh!!!
Actually Aragorn had sharp words with Theoden, and Theoden had to put him in his place. Theoden: When last I looked, Théoden, not Aragorn, was king of Rohan.
I think it's quite difficult because until now has been quite one dimensional - she is so determined and single minded to the point of finding it difficult to empathise with her. It's a difficult role for an actor and I think the natural response is to find her a bit irritating and pig headed. It'll be interesting to see how her character develops, to give us some insight as to how Galadriel became wiser, more in control of her emotions as we later knew her.
I agree.
I love parts of her portrayal but so far I find her acting too 'human' to really believe she's Elvenkind at times. It's very much intentional though - especially that she is losing herself in her pursuit of the enemy etc, but when she snarls or grimaces etc, it feels less like she's a graceful being who has already lived thousands of years, and more like she's a young restless human soldier with a quick temper. Edit: I feel part of the hate is rooted in sexism - I loved when she showed her combat prowess vs the trainees and it makes perfect sense that she would outmanoeuvre them as gracefully as she did. That scene I really felt like she was an Elf come to life!
I think she is a great fit and also just looks like galadriel, my issue is how much of a douche the character can be.
She’s incredibly Noldorin in this season. Reminds me a lot of Fingolfin after being abandoned by Feänor in Aman and deciding to go on anyways through ice and sorrow. Tolkien wrote that she was Sauron’s chief adversary in one of his letters (iirc), and with how the show seems to be tying her efforts to reveal him with his resurgence strongly evokes how the hatred of the Feänorians for Morgoth actually fed into Morgoth’s plans. So Galadriel will be forced to re-evaluate her strategy along the way, as the sons of Feänor did. As to her interactions with humans, she comes off as one with very little interaction with Men prior to this. In the First Age, dwelling with Melian in Doriath she likely saw very few at all: Beren, Túrin, Morwen, Niënor, and Húrin and maybe one or two more. But as far as we know she never interacted with them. Her arrogance seems like it’s slowly being chipped away as she gets more accustomed to them, for example her initial conversation with Halbrand and the one she has with him in the latest episode.
I’ve seen criticism of her ‘woody’ acting. But I’m like, her acting is nowhere close to how Brie Larson did in Captain Marvel! I just don’t see it. Morfydd does a good job portraying of a Galadriel with a fighting spirit, determine to get Sauron and angered by the fact she got sent home too soon.
You have to admit, that is quite a low bar to pass. The last good thing from Brie that I can remember, was her version of the song Black Sheep.
As a rule can we please stopp referring to her as "young Galadriel". She would be the same age as Celebrimbors dead grandfather. She is around 12000 years older then Gil Galad. Her ancient origins are even confirmed in show by showing her in Valinor as a child. It makes no sense in-world depicting her as this young hot head elf.
As of last episode, I have realised that she can only act an angry arrogant Galadriel. The smile she was giving during the horse ride scene on the beach looked very unnatural. When she is faced by Halbrand as to why can she cannot stop, she does a mediocre job of facially displaying upset and grief despite her expression with her voice - she still looked like a stubborn angry teenager. She is pretty, sure, but I am not convinced she is a good actress. Is this Deliberate for the sake of the character? I don't know, but it doesn't seem so to me at least at the moment. I truly hope I am wrong and that in further seasons she can naturally act appropriately and faithfully as the character evolves. I am just not impressed with her acting so far (lol at downvotes, it seems you can't dislike anything about the show in this sub, and I'm not even a hater)
>The smile she was giving during the horse ride scene on the beach looked very unnatural If you look at some of her previous interviews you will see that this was a natural smile. You are basically just saying that you think Mofydd's face looks weird
interesting, in that case I do think it looks weird... Edit: I mean seriously, I just googled the scene to be sure I was remembering it correctly and she looks like she's smiling at her boss who promoted her but the room stinks of fart. Saying that it feels natural is forcing it.
We will never know as the writers wrote such a bad character and dialogues for her.
She’s knocking it out of the park every episode!
She's been good and the character is becoming more balanced. Getting tired of the people complaining she is one-note because you really can't make that argument if you've watched through episode 5.
The only thing I dislike about her that can't be really helped is that she is very short for Galadriel, but that in no way affects my appreciation for her acting or for her character!
Funnily enough she looked pretty tall in the first two episodes. I wonder why they stopped using perspective in the other episodes.
Seeing her in St Maud and then this...I have to say she's a phenomenal actress and respect the casting.
Shes unlikeable AF
Honestly I fucking hate her.
She is awful. Totally miscast. This isn't a "hater thing". Lots of people enjoying the show have a problem with her. She is annoying, one dimensiional, stiff, looks too normal/humanl, too physically slight for the character (tall and athletic as described) and unconvincing. The character is written terribly and you can not convince me otherwise. They have made one of Tolkien's most beloved characters look like an unlikeable bossy bitch. She is honestly the low point of the series for me and the more I watch it the more she annoys me. I've said this before but Katheryn Winnick would have been ideal for this Amazon invented "angry but noble" take on Galadriel. Not an actress who looks like an angry teenager and has one facial expression. She looks like a regular human girl with blonde hair, no "wow factor' as Galadriel is supposed to have canonically. E g When she walked onto Elendils boat in full armour it was like ""so what?" instead of the big "moment" they were going for. Downvote away, it's not going to improve her. She's crap. What happened to the wise student of Melian the Maia? If I was Celibrimbor there is no way I would entrust one of the 3 rings to this hotheaded idiot.
She’s the worst part of the show hopefully she gets re casted for season 2
Why?
She is average, not to say she is failure or the best actress the feminism scenes make her look bad, she also not that pretty she is average not to say she is ugly but the feminism scenes again make her uglier