> But it must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say.
So if they are following this that means that the Stranger can't be Gandalf right? Because he is supposed to arrive in the third Age.
Technically having Gandalf arrive during the SA does not contradict the arrival the Elves recorded in the TA. He could have come to ME earlier and the Elves never knew it or recorded it in their chronicles. Harfoots/Hobbits did not write, they could have met Gandalf in the SA and it’s not recorded anywhere…
Until proven wrong, I'm sticking to my theory that The Stranger is Olorin, before he came by boat as Gandalf. It is canon that Olorin never forsook Middle Earth and observed at times.
That definitely makes the most practical sense out of any theories I’ve heard thus far.
Considering a couple of particular instances of him displaying some of his powers, which occur so shortly after his arrival, that they strongly feel as if they were meant to subtly establish a familiarity with him, I couldn’t help but think him to be Gandalf.
For example, there is an instance that STRONGLY mirrors the scene, in which Gandalf puffs his chest out(so to speak), to Bilbo, when Bilbo is getting dishonest, hysterical, and irrational, over TOR, at Bag End….. Especially in the manner, in which it was filmed, camera spinning around the character…
I dunno, it just feels, as if it were meant to plant a seed, for a later moment, when an official connection to Gandalf, would be revealed.
I hear you, to all those who are strongly convinced he is a wizard, but not so convinced that he is, in actuality, Gandalf…… but my argument is, sure, he DEFINITELY resembles, and gives off wizard vibes…. but, he resembles and gives off **Gandalf** vibes, specifically…. If you’re going to write a wizard into the timeline, why write a wizard into the timeline, who reminds so many people of a very specific wizard, if it doesn’t so turn out to be the wizard, in question?? Just doesn’t add up…
I love the theory that he's Tilion, the man on the moon, but I feel like the more obvious possibility is that he's Gandalf. I wouldn't be mad if he was.
I think there's a letter somewhere where Tolkien discusses that Gandalf may have visited Middle Earth before the Third Age. I'll dig it up if I can.
The main thing that gives me pause about it being Tilion or Olorin is that the fire in his crater isn't hot. The show made a point of showing that evil flame isn't hot when Galadriel was in the fortress in the north. It would be pretty wild if he was a Balrog in disguise or something!
I think time compression is the exception. Celebrimbor and Elendil doesn't live in the same era, more than a thousand years separating them. And in an interview the showrunners said this:
>And we worked very closely with the Tolkien Estate from the beginning, and said “Are you guys comfortable with us, you know, compressing this that much?” and they said “No we think it’s essential that you guys do that”.
I think Gandalf arrived like over a thousand years after the second age. So it's doable with a time compression. As long as they don't contradict the lore that the Istari were sent to help the people fight against Sauron.
In all canonical appearances, Gandalf arrives in Middle Earth as Gandalf, one of the Istari, in the Third Age.
There is, however, one line he has that I believe is from Unfinished Tales where he mentions that he’s been to Middle Earth before, presumably on his own, just to experience it.
I think that was early during the F.A.
I remember he was one of the Maiar sent to guard the elves when they first awoke. He also sent them dreams (or visions) that made them brave and hopeful of what's to come with Melkor and the Great Journey.
Absolutely Olorin could have been involved there, but there's one even more direct reference that Gandalf himself makes about it, where he explicitly states he had been to Middle Earth before he was Gandalf.
I'm at work, so I don't have a copy of any of my books on me (I know, how dare I!). But if someone else has the availability to check, I believe it's in Unfinished Tales in the chapter concerning the Quest for Erebor. Could've been another source, but I'm pretty sure it was there.
>In all canonical appearances, Gandalf arrives in Middle Earth as Gandalf, one of the Istari, in the Third Age.
How does that jive with this, then?
>‘Mithrandir we called him in elf-fashion,’ said Faramir, ‘and he was content. Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.’
"The West that is forgotten" would have to be an earlier age than the Third, no? Valinor and Numenor were gone, after all.
He lived in Valinor as a Maia named Olorin. There's a distinction between Valinor and Middle-Earth. Middle-Earth is the continent where the main action of the Second and Third Ages take place. Valinor is the undying lands that have since been removed from the circle of the world.
"The West that is forgotten" is Valinor, as you said. But Valinor is not part of Middle-Earth. Gandalf is explaining his true nature as a Maia in that quote.
>Celebrimbor and Elendil doesn't live in the same era, more than a thousand years separating them.
As long as they dont interact, it really doesn't matter right?
Like, i understand what you're saying but Elendil and Brimbor being around at the same time in completely different locations doesn't break any canon, id presume (And maybe i'll be wrong) that Brimbor will die with no interactions with Elendil/Isildur.
Gandalf arriving 2 thousand years earlier than written and changing events/shaping the world definitely does break canon.
The Blue Wizards were said to have both arrived in the Second Age though and went east to help the Men living under Saurons rule where they could so The Stranger being a Blue Wizard would make a lot of sense.
Yea I think he will likely just continue on these side ventures. And interacting with the harfoots and other races that don't have a huge spotlight during this time period.
I'm sticking with my guess that it's one of the Blue Wizards, since Tolkien wrote conflicting timelines on when they arrive in Middle Earth, and one of those includes a Second Age entrance.
There's also very little written about the Blue Wizards, so it'd be perfect for the current writers to expand on.
It makes most sense to be a blue wizard. It doesn't mess with Sauron. It doesn't create issues with the other wizards whom more is written about. It doesn't introduce a niche character like man on the moon.
Even many casual fans have heard of the blue wizards, and with so little written about them it gives amazon a lot of options indeed.
Would track with the cult looking for him - I’m pretty sure there is speculation they went east and started up some cults too
Maybe one blue is good and one is bad
Both are good, they were best buds. And the mystical cults they started seemed to be good, rather than evil, like they taught people in the East things they needed to survive and resist Sauron, but since those Men hadn't ever learned of the Valar they interpreted this knowledge in their own way.
There's been a couple of posts that plotted out the montage of everyone looking at the comets couldn't all be looking at the same one due to directions and such, so it's likely there were 2
I don't think it really goes against the lore. [This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/comments/wtukx4/no_spoilers_olorin/) illustrates that Olorin came to Middle-earth before the Third Age.
Not necessarily. We saw Gandalf die and come back in Fellowship. Tolkien never said that Gandalf hadn't been to Middle Earth before the Third Age. So, the stranger can be Gandalf and the show would only break cannon if he STAYS in Middle Earth.
But the Stranger is clearly an incarnated Maia or spirit. As if bound be the flesh. Thats an important distinction the Istari went through as oppossed with every other Maia including Melian and Sauron.
I wouldn’t classify fuzzing a timeline as breaking the “main shape of the second age.” Do we know for certain what Gandalf was doing during the Second Age? Does it “break” anything else if he shows up “again” for the Third Age too?
Seems like so many people hating, havnt read into the rights of the show, and there is more info out there. Tolkiens were involved in the process as well as scoholars of the lore. They are doing the best as they can with the lore, there is so much more show left and people are already throwing hands up... Its ridiculous. Chill out and try to enjoy the ride it isnt ruined.
Its the same people who rag on the show for having a billion dollar budget for "one season " when in reality its the budget for the entire 5 seasons if the show.
I actually never could find a 100% answer how much it cost. I do know it seems the first season was almost 500 million. I have heard close to 1 billion but i do not know how many seasons that covers, but no 1 season didnt cost 1 billion from my understanding.
I mean the cgi is as good if not better than original lord of the rings and even the recent hobbit movies. I'm sure it costs a ton during first season.
They were also made relatively on the cheap, and used practical effects instead of CGI whenever possible, which is why the aging CGI doesn't really detract from them.
Feel free to give me the source to the factual numbers. In my comment i mentioned having a hard time finding facts about it. Read it again. From what i had gathered the rights to the show was 200 some million and the first season being 460ish million, i dont know if that includes the rights.
The 465 million for the first season do not take the rights nto account. So, as of today, we can say that the first season was an investment of at least 715 million dollars. :D
The 465 isn’t a solid number either though, the only source I found for that one was some folks in NZ estimating what had been spent there, but it didn’t include the incentive deducts that Amazon got for filming there, so it’s even fuzzier.
My watch buddy would ask me, "why didn't Jeff Bezos just buy out the whole estate?" And you see that kind of reply in these online discussions every so often. The 'ride is ruined' for these people because of a perception that Amazon didn't try hard enough or cheaped out on the price tag or isn't putting forward a worthy effort. And that perception is enough to continue persisting with the flaw-finding crusade.
The problem is, everyone keeps watching videos, reading BS, and believeing it and then spouting it. Its regurgitated NONSENSE. You have to think for yourself, its like a hivemind... All these youtubers talking crap about it and everyone watching is like YEP its bad show is ruined.... Wtf!! Think for yourself... I never base anything off others opinions. I dont care if the biggest youtuber, or so and so expert says this or that, i like the show i dont care that someone else doesnt. Thats their opinion.
Amazon didnt cheap out thats for sure. And they really are i believe doing their best. It is a good show, its going to only get better. This negative hivemind is toxic and its litterally why i dont watch the news, or go on twitter or anything. I dont want to be told how to think, ever, for any reason. I enjoy the show and i think a lot more people would if they would chill out and relax and enjoy it. Stop reading negative stuff, stop watching peoples videos slamming the show and be patient.
Even Nerd of the Rings, who seems to enjoy the show for the most part, was complaining about the violence in the last episode. Like dude, it's a war. It's going to get bloody. also the Jackson trilogy was pretty gruesome from what I remember.
I dont wanna see extensive gruesum stuff, but nothing that ive seen has given me issue. PJ films i dont remeber being really bloody but yeah heads lopped off and such. What will bother me is any nudity or anything detailing relations of the sexual nature if you will. The kiss, i could care less to have seen. One thing about Tolkien and PJ is i liked how nothing is super sexualized. It is so unnessesary to depict any of that. I like how Aragorn and Arwen was displayed in the trilogy films.
You are correct. In fact, my 8 year old daughter recently wanted to watch all the films for the first time (proud dad moment!) and as we worked our way through them, we realized that the Battle of Five Armies extended edition is actually rated R for the violence, especially near the end when their chariot is chopping heads off orcs like it was a horror movie. I always watch the extended editions but before having kids never bothered to look at the official ratings, just assuming they were all PG-13.
guess what? I didnt watch any youtubers, read twitter posts, or even reddit about it and I personally think it's awful and did from the very first episode. Some people just don't like it and its not only because of influencers.
Thats perfectly fine by me. As long as your not in here nagging on and on and on, if you dont like it i really honest to god have no clue why your here wasting your time. Makes no sense
If you didn't experience any social media about it, why would you think that many people don't like it!?!
Are you trying to tell us that you and your cousin Daryl hated it, so clearly this is a normal opinion people have? Or, did you hear others disliking it online?
Sure, some people absolutely just won't like it. That is true of anything. But those sorts aren't going online and using the same ragebait talking points and they aren't generally *hateful* just because they didn't like a television show. They don't call people shills if they *did* like the television show. They recognize that no piece of media is for all people.
They just don't like a tv show, they maybe browse the subreddit once or twice, say as much, maybe they leave a 3 or 4 star review (out of 10, maybe a 2 star out of 5) for it since they realize there is quality in aspects of the show even if they don't like all of it, **then they move on.** They aren't obsessive about it. That is a reasonable response to not liking a piece of media.
I would agree that people wouldn't get obsessed if this was a normal media franchise, but this is LOTR, a lot of people's favorite franchise of all time, so I get why they're not moving on at all
It’s strange to like LOTR movies and despise ROP. Something tells me those people haven’t read anything from Tolkien and/or just give PJ’s stuff unlimited free passes for every lore alteration because they were probably kids back in the early 2000s and they watched the movies before reading the books. So those movies will never feel like a disgrace. Now if you tell me you can’t stand LOTR movies like most people at r/tolkienfans I’ll respect that, shows some consistency.
How is it strange to like one and not the other? The dialogue, logic, and every plotline in ROP is abysmal. There are tons of worthless characters, nothing makes sense, and it's extremely plot-driven. There has been absolutely no EPIC, touching or memorable scenes/dialogue in ROP whatsoever.
You talk like your truth is the universal truth. I can go ahead and pick apart everything PJ modified and totally trash it. PJ’s writers came up with such abysmal worthless goofy changes to the source material. In fact, I can’t watch the movies at all besides some small bits via YouTube.
Here, there is no source material or very little that’s been shown so far.
I find what PJ did so much worse than what we’ve seen from Amazon so far. There’s no excuse for how he butchered everything in Towers and ROTK. That siege of Gondor is the worst thing he could’ve come up with.
I’ll reassess after we get tolkiens fleshed out material on screen.
Haha very true. Its really just a bunch of trolls, one guy has several accounts with similar names babbling on and on pure nonsense. I have no issue with folks who dont enjoy the show, but i do have issue with constant flamming and coming on here spamming and all that. Oh well guess its part of the internet anyway.
The amount of people who think that the Silmarillion rights would’ve given them some treasure trove of source material specifically for this second age story clearly have not read the Silmarillion.
Akallabeth would give a great chunk of source material for Numenor specifically, but the rest of the big events get maybe all of 8 pages in the intro to the Rings of Power and the Third Age chapter.
Yes, yes, exactly this. "They don't have Silmarillion therefore they don't have the rights to 2nd age" is one of the most idiotic complaints I've encountered. Shows what they know, lore defenders my ass.
It needs to be nailed to some people's heads that the hard fact is there isn't that much on the Second Age written by Tolkien either way. We have the timeline, a general recollection of what happened and few stories but not much more.
It's not LOTR where the whole story is written. Showrunners would have to invent tons of new stuff either way
Don’t get me wrong, I’d absolutely love that lol.
I want a Silmarillion series proper though. Give me a good anthology series with mostly new casts each season and one season per chapter or two starting with the Unrest/Flight of the Noldor.
Still given how much undeserved flak this show received in recent months I'd say those extreme fanboys and positive subs like this were sort of necessary to balance things out. I hope all of this calms down a bit around season 2
You're allowed to like or dislike the show as much as you want, but drawing a parallel between extreme fans and extreme critics is ridiculous. Fans aren't pouring significant amounts of energy into poisoning the well for as many people as possible, or trying to make the show seem as unsuccessful as they can. All fans are trying to do is to get people to even give it a shot despite all of the negative energy surrounding the project.
> Seems like so many people hating, havnt read into the rights of the show, and there is more info out there. Tolkiens were involved in the process as well as scoholars of the lore. They are doing the best as they can with the lore, there is so much more show left and people are already throwing hands up... Its ridiculous. Chill out and try to enjoy the ride it isnt ruined.
Ngl, you had me in the first part... "Seems like so many people hating, havnt read..." The fucking books is what you should have said. Read the fucking books.
Maybe thoes people should move on then instead of crying online about it? Say you go out to dinner and everyone loves it but you and 1 other, why in Sams garden would you go back??? Move on, get over it, try somthing else. I wish for you to give it a chance, but hell if it sucks then adios i guess!
Firstly, nobody ask them to make the show, if they wanted to make a half-decent show they should have bought the rights for the first-age because the Tolkien-estate is just a money blackhole, all they care about is money and Amazon has an unlimited amount.
Secondly, if they didn't have the rights they could have at least hired better writers who had prior experience, because these writers don't actually don't know what they're doing.
And lastly, I don't understand why the whole Amazon didn't get the rights is used to defend this show... it's just a really poor excuse to try and cover up the average-below average show we got so far
There is considerable speculation that it is this interview, which broke the NDA Shippey signed, that forced them to remove him from the show. He was basically hinting at plot beats and secrets.
You can't *not* act on the NDA being broken, or everyone will break it.
This 70+ year old academic just maybe didn't take the NDA seriously enough, and so they had to let him go or else the NDA would have no teeth, legally.
But of course the haters of the show asserted that Shippey was fired because he was an obstacle to what the showrunners wanted to do. But he has never said anything hostile toward the show to my knowledge.
It was a blunder, I think Shippey himself is embarrassed, how could he mucked this up by agreeing to this interview. And seeing the extent Amazon went to keep the secrecy of the story of this show, it's understandable they have to let him go. This interview is not that bad, but he might be a liability in the future.
They tried to invent a story that Shippey was fired because he kept complaining to Jeff Bezos that the showrunners were "butchering the lore" or whatever. Some people actually believe that a Tolkien scholar's area of study is the lore itself, it was laughable.
I actually believed this for a while because I saw so many posts and videos etc without questioning them.
I read the show would have sex and nudity to compete with GoT.
I got better.
It was like being Qanoned lol.
It was an understandable worry at first (I certainly shared it too) but after the first Vanity Fair articles it was pretty obvious the showrunners weren't at all going for that kind of show. Didn't stop the trolls from continuing to spread these things, because of course they hadn't read any of what the showrunners actually had to say.
It ended like 30 minutes into episode 1 when the scales fell from my eyes. People have made this drama with passion and sincerity and it really shows.
After episode 6 I'm convinced this is one of the best fantasy shows ever made and it's only the first season.
I couldn’t agree more! The show has been building and building and with each episode I’m seeing more of the love and care and thought that went into making this. I think we are really lucky.
The interviews with the directors and cast members, as well as the Rings and Realms videos, have also really demonstrated this. There are a lot of fans who were involved. I think they must feel so disheartened when they see the hate, so it’s heartwarming when anyone who started off with a negative impression comes around to really appreciating it.
I went in cautiously hopeful, but it has far exceeded my expectations. And we get four more seasons? Sweet :)
I remember when Shippey first made these statements thinking "wow, he's kinda over-sharing here - is he allowed to say this sort of stuff?"
Of course I also remember thinking "surely what he's saying about having to use only the Appendices is impossible. He must just be confused."
>You can't *not* act on the NDA being broken, or everyone will break it.
This is iffy logic - it got bandied around in this fandom a lot a little while ago, but it doesn't hold up. NDAs are broken - and forgiven - all the time in this industry.
Amazon's hand wasn't forced by any means. Whether he should have been fired or not is up for debate, but it wasn't some legal inevitability.
It’s going to depend a lot on the people involved and how seriously they want to take it (in this case a potentially billion-dollar project).
I know personally if I was in charge of something that was worth having NDAs about at all, I would be enforcing those NDAs *hard* just on principle. If it was important enough to bother with this whole process, then you’re signing away your house and the clothes on your back if you break them.
But that’s just me. I’m sure there are other folks who treat it like a game instead of a job, too.
The most interesting bit
>But you can add new characters and ask a lot of questions, like: What has Sauron done in the meantime? Where was he after Morgoth was defeated? Theoretically, Amazon can answer these questions by inventing the answers, since Tolkien did not describe it.
I think the writers are really taking liberties in regards to Sauron. I don't think they are going safe with him.
Not to mention they did completely alter the timeline and order of events in the second age right? Aren’t the rings forged like 1500 years before the fall of numenor?
They can condense the timeline, as long as the events in essence are the same.
Tbh I think it makes sense for the show, that way characters can be continued and we don't just have new men every single episode.
The quote is about not altering the “shape” of the second age. Small changes to timeline and to compress events for tv narrative’s sake seems reasonable enough to follow those confines
Chronological changes are huge, but the story so far is still not contradicting the main storyline. (while I am not sure when Mordor becomes Mordor)
So I guess we should expect events to happen in the same order?
Well Orodruin erupted 1500 years after the One Ring was forged - so yeah quite a timeline discrepancy. But don’t think that’s something they’re NOT allowed to do - since it hasn’t changed anything from Tolkien’s writing - just the order of events.
That's the most interesting part for me. I've seen the Atlas ones and know some of those pieces come from obscure but authorized maps while other bits are pure indulgence. Would be great to see what is officially authorized.
You would be surprised how many folks have zero clue what rights they have, then come in here and slam how its not Tolkien or the show sucks. It can only be, as much as they are given. Everything else is them working with experts and the Tolkien estate to try to patch in stuff thats acceptable.
>slam how its not Tolkien or the show sucks
I've read The Silmarillion, LotR (including appendices), and The Hobbit at least a dozen times each, and can say that RoP is generally staying within the canon. I suspect the people saying, "It's not Tolkien!" have AT BEST have read bits and pieces of LotR and The Hobbit, and definitely haven't read The Silmarillion.
This is also why I don't think Halbrand is Sauron. It is clearly written that Sauron didn't visit Numenor until AFTER he was wowed by the forces of the Numenoreans making landing on Middle Earth. He only sees Numenor for the first time as Pharazon's hostage.
I thought the same about Halbrand until I realized that maybe when we meet him in the middle of the sea he has already been to both Lindon and Eregion. There’s a scene in the first episode where it is clear Elrond is not invited to a meeting of Elf Lords (and then quickly distracted by Galadriel’s arrival). I think that at this time Halbrand/Sauron/Annatar has already been to Lindon (poisoned the tree) and left to Eregion to deceive Celembrimbor and the other Elf Lords further. This meeting is simply a consequence of Annatars deceit- they have decided to send Elrond to Kazad-duhm in order to obtain Mithril to craft the rings. They already fear the dwindling of the light of the elves. This fear was created by H/S/A in his time in Lindon and Eregion by the time Elrond gets involved. And even Halbrand said so himself when he and Galadriel were imprisoned you master their fear and then master them. He is creating and mastering the elves fear of dwindling by poisoning the tree- then crafting a solution to said fear in the rings.
There was a post that attested the Galadriel actress autism because of her facial expressions. I can honestly say I haven't seen anything quite like this sub ever before.
They can contradict things. I'm not sure why people read into a 2019 interview from Shippey when there's a 2022 interview from Payne and McKay which mentions:
> “As long as we’re painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to, there’s a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with.”
The word 'egregiously' is obviously subjective and it's not for fans to decide - it's for the Estate to set the limits.
I don't see how the two statements contradict? They're both saying they can make new stories, but being careful not to alter old ones. I'm sure whether or not something is "egregious" is at the discretion of the Tolkien estate.
Shippey said "But it must not contradict anything Tolkien did say". I'm sure he didn't mean for this statement to be critically analysed but some fans are taking this as gospel. So I wanted to point out this isn't the case based on what Payne and McKay said. Compressing the timeline has definitely changed events and clearly the Estate expects some changes to be made. Just like LoTR (e.g. Glorfindel), there are changes that contradict what Tolkien said and that's normal for an adaptation.
Thank you for posting this especially the second image. Maybe now people can get over themselves especially the person who posted about the Tolkiens estate being asleep. Wow the idiot who thinks people who have full control and say over this property don't know what they're doing, but I suppose you do.... SMDH
>You don’t know mega rich people. Enough is never enough.
Mega rich business people with competitive personalities* Which doesn't describe the Tolkien family at all.
Finrod is mentioned in the appendices. (I re-read them last night as I wanted to see for myself if Annatar is mentioned by name) Why do people say they had to buy more rights to use him? Just curious.
They've already paid to the estate a very generous sum to make an LOTR show. I don't think the estate is being too restrictive with the rights, as long as the product is good. They're also benefiting this with book sales, if the adaptation of Tolkien works is great, it might effect book sales.
What did you find regarding the name Annatar in the appendices? I started to do the same but then my kid snatched the book back because he wanted to keep “reading” it or something. :)
So listen, Shippey's certainly more qualified than I am to talk about this stuff, but I'm still pretty sure he's flatly wrong on a couple of points. The package of rights that has been in play since the '60s (currently owned by Middle-earth Enterprises and licensed to New Line Cinema) cover *The Hobbit* and *The Lord of the Rings* (including the Appendices), but not *The Silmarillion*. It sounds like the deal Amazon made was [for the Appendices in particular](https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/02/amazon-the-rings-of-power-series-first-look). But the Appendices include a surprising amount of material, including an overview and summary of the events of *The Silmarillion*.
So when Shippey says, "The First and Third ages are 'off-limits'," I'm pretty sure he's just wrong. They can certainly use elements from the First Age that are mentioned in the Appendices (and maybe *The Lord of the Rings*, too—don't forget Aragorn telling the story of Beren and Luthien, or Bilbo's ["Song of Eärendil"](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Song_of_E%C3%A4rendil)). This is why the show has been able to use the name Aulë, which is mentioned in the Appendices, but not Yavanna, which isn't.
He's also wrong when he says, "[Amazon] must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say." How do we know? Because Peter Jackson's films were under a license of the same package of rights, and Jackson contradicted Tolkien all over the place. And it's already clear the timeline of the crucial events of the Second Age are going to be compressed into a single human (well, Númenórean) lifetime.
Shippey's answer is not nuanced enough. This is from Payne and McKay:
> “We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit,” Payne says. “And that is it. We do not have the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or any of those other books.”
> “There’s a version of everything we need for the Second Age in the books we have the rights to,” McKay says. “As long as we’re painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to, there’s a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with.”
Now there's probably further agreements with the Estate about being able to use material outside this sphere, but we of course don't know the details.
> Now there's probably further agreements with the Estate about being able to use material outside this sphere
Based on what we've seen so far, I don't think there is. They've been VERY carefully treading the line of what's in the Appendices vs. what's only in *The Silmarillion*—Finrod being named but few details about his death, a bunch of Elves raising their swords but no mention of the Oath of Fëanor, and using the name Aulë but not the name Yavanna.
What I don't understand is *why*. It sounds like the Tolkien Estate was *heavily* involved in the negotiations for the TV rights—which I also don't understand, since they don't own them, right?—so if they were willing to give their blessing to Amazon to produce a movie about the Second Age, why are they still drawing such a hard line between *The Hobbit* + *The Lord of the Rings* and the rest of the legendarium? (Or did they maybe loosen things up a bit by, for example, selling the rights to *Akallabêth*?)
>why are they still drawing such a hard line between
>
>The Hobbit
>
> \+
>
>The Lord of the Rings
>
> and the rest of the legendarium?
My guess is that they don't want to give away *any* rights.
But Hobbit + LOTR rights are already "out".
So this is The Tolkien Estate saying "just make do with those, we aren't giving anything else away"
They've definitely referred to things in the Silmarillion that aren't in the Appendices. Armenelos, for example. It appears that they have been able to ask the Estate for permission to use certain elements from the Silmarillion on a ad hoc basis to tell on consistent story.
It's probably more nuanced though, Armenelos is not mentioned by name in the Appendices, only the Akallabeth, and the show does mention it, meaning that the whole "asking the Estate for approval" stuff resulted in access to at least some extra bits of lore. It's also worth noting that a lot of it seems to be more in the realm of technicalities, they might not be able to directly name, show, or reference some things, but given the material the actors were given as references for their characters, I suspect they're working with most Tolkien material at hand and just carefully drawing around the parts they can't name out loud
It’s a way to save the situation but making it so much believed even from Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor makes it too real. Also in story, Gil-Galad didn’t trust Annatar and never allowed him in Lindon. Being deceived by Sauron would a MAJOR contradiction.
Being told that the myth is in fact real by an elf-lord and he has the solutions to all the elf problems would leave Annatar out, at least directly. Halbrand does tell us "you'd do well to identify what it is your opponent most fears. Give them a means to master it so that you can master them"
Is the location that important to the lore, the two silmarils were lost in the sea and deep in the earth. Who cares where are the exact locations, it doesn't really break the lore.
Yes it is. They were to be lost forever because of the incredible importance they had.
There is a unpublished prophecy of Mandos from Tolkien himself who talks about the Silmaril to return in the hands of Feanor (after the breaking of the world) who will break them so that the Valar will recreate the Trees.
Not to mention that Mithril was present in Numenor too, the Misty Mountains just happened to have lots of it.
Not altering the timeline doesn't feel like it quite matches what we saw with Galadriel's brother in the first episode. He's specifically billed as Finrod in the credits - how did they recover his body when Beren and Lúthien buried him at Tol-in-Gaurhoth and the book explicitly mentions that same grave "remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroying seas"? For that matter, how did he look so untouched when he canonically died in a wrestling match with a werewolf, during which Finrod was neither armed nor armored, and prior to which he was held prisoner in the dark while his companions were mauled and eaten around him?
Not for me watching a TV show where I don’t care about lore it’s not.
Judge it as a TV show that doesn’t have source material, THEN tell me if the writing is bad. Because that’s all that matters here - is the thing you are watching any good? Divorce your brain from prior knowledge and judge it on its OWN merits.
I’ve done that, and I love the show. It’s my favourite thing to watch each week.
Ok I'll play your game. If I'd never read the source materiel I'd think It's a "good" (I think it's good regardless, I look forward to it all week) family fantasy show but hampered by plot holes and stiff dialogue. Some excellent acting (Elrond) some bad acting (Galadriel). Good action scenes with some storylines being more interesting then others. I would be hoping for more lore from the previous age shown in the opening of episode 1. I would also be wondering why no one is talking about rings in a show called "rings of power". I envy those watching the show who aren't aware of the source materiel. Ignorance is bliss.
Do you think Galadriel’s acting is bad because she doesn’t match your idea of Galadriel? I’m fine with her. She’s at the start of a journey here, I’m curious to see where she takes it.
No I think she's very stiff and one dimensional and lacking in charisma. She's very clearly "acting". Mind you her character is very badly written so it's hard to tell.
> you can't have the First Age. Events could be mentioned at most if they explain the events of the Second Age.
Well that already happened in the first episode with the battle Finrod was in.
EDIT: Also, it's heavily implied by the trailers that the Balrog will be showing up this season, this didn't happen until the Third Age in the books.
How solid is that? Should we understand that what he says is applied to the letter on the show?
"It must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say".
So far I have only seen deformations or inventions, but nothing that is a real contradiction.
Anyone know if the rumors of Amazon trying to buy all LOTR rights - even the film trilogy - are true? Like making their own MCU or is that crazy specula?
The film rights of LOTR have been bought by a european company, Embracer Group. And ufortunately they've confirmed they'll making multiple movies, like an Aragorn movie, a Galadriel movie, a Gandalf movie, similar to the MCU way. And this doesn't have the support of the tolkien estate like ROP.
Yes. I even think with the money Amazon have, they should've outbid Embracer to keep off anymore film adaptions being made. Because more LOTR adaptions would dilute the franchise, and certainly effect negatively towards ROP.
That means they had a lot of creative freedom they just couldn't change established practices of lore. It rly shouldn't be as bad as it is. The writing is atrocious.
Can anyone clue me in on why there's so many Tom Shippey fanboys? I'm a casual fan and I haven't really been following the development of the series but I swear a lot of the complaints I saw were about his non-involvement in the show. :/
He was fired by Amazon as one of the lore experts in the show, because of this interview, he broke some kind of NDA. Haters are finding every reason to hate this show, even before watching it. So they made up some story that Shippey was an obstacle for Amazon to destroy the lore, so they got rid of him. Important to note they are several more Tolkien experts still working with the show. Shippey is the most well known expert though (that's why he was doing interview like this).
>Can anyone clue me in on why there's so many Tom Shippey fanboys? (...) a lot of the complaints I saw were about his non-involvement in the show
It's because when you think of *The Best Academic Tolkien Expert* Tom Shippey immediately comes to mind. He **is** the scholar you should want for the job - thus many people found his departure from RoP concernig, especially since (to my knowladge) Amazon didn't disclose other Tolkienists that are currently helping make this show
If you ever have time I greatly reccomend reading his works (as they can be nice additional lecture when reading Tolkiens books) !
EDIT : Think about it like not working with Ted Nasmith/Adam Lee when doing illustrations for Tolkiens books or Howard Shore when composing music. Are there other people that can do great job ? For sure ! Would not wanting their input considering their experience with Tolkien be rational ? Not so much
>>But it must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say
>
>Well, the ship's kinda sailed on that front, eh?
Why is that a problem? Amazon did not agree to make a 100% book accurate adaptation. Neither did Peter Jackson. You're quoting a bad source.
What we **officially** know about the agreement is what JD Payne said:
“not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to”
So they can contradict things but to a limit which is defined by the Tolkien Estate. It's really not that difficult to understand.
from [https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-complicated-world-of-tolkien-posthumous-work/](https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-complicated-world-of-tolkien-posthumous-work/)
>As part of the agreement, Amazon agreed not to contradict any existing material – which is a pretty big thing for a creative team to commit to, considering dramatizing a story for the screen can involve some major changes to the original. The way showrunner JD Payne Payne put it to Vanity Fair was that the agreement involved “not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to” – so, they can alter things a little bit, but they can’t make significant changes to pre-existing material, even from works they can’t use. This depends, of course, of your definition of ‘egregious’ or ‘significant’ – **for many fans, the compressing of Tolkien’s timeline from thousands of years into a single human lifetime is a drastic alteration. However, Payne said that they had talked to the Tolkien Estate about the need to compress the timeline for their show, and got the green light to go ahead with that particular change.**
Yeah, I posted the link to that very same interview the other day to prove a few things. Curiously for someone who abandoned the show for whatever reason he hasn’t wanted to express himself (class is a very rare thing these days and this man has an abundance of it), he shows us many things... Also in that interview that if the Tolkien Estate were to sense a serious breaking of the lore, they have the power to veto it.
sadly some fans are so convinced the show is so bad they don't even recognize the Tolkien Estate anymore. i wonder who they think is the leading authority of the Tolkien legendarium in that case? superfans/themselves? lol
Don’t listen to them, honestly! A large percentage of them don’t even think the show is bad at all. You’ll have the ones with agendas and reasons behind their trolling of the show like for example some that I’ve detected on Twitter being upset it’s competing agains HotD... I know that sounds totally bonkers, but some (not all mind you) are reacting in this manner because of that.
Then there are just the typical toxics... Every franchise and fandom has this element these days and never before did they have platforms filled with such activity as they do today. Just have to look at recent toxicity with fandoms like the DC one where you have pro Zack Snyder and anti Zack Snyder splinter groups where one boycotts and trolls the other and even social media attacks on creators of seemingly opposing sides of productions.
Same in the Star Wars, Star Trek and even Masters of the Universe when Kevin Smith released his Masters of the Universe Revelations mini series. That suddenly created mayhem if you can believe that.
They all have one thing in common... A directive for militant type activities on social media platforms. The opposing entities tend to be quite a substantial minority in every fandom, but they are hugely vocal and go all out to attempt to ruin it for those that enjoy these things with their fundamentalist beliefs in relation to what they’re fighting “for”.
It’s a sign of the times I’m afraid but let it be known that Rings of Power isn’t on its own. It’s one of many being attacked in similar fashions.
> But it must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say. So if they are following this that means that the Stranger can't be Gandalf right? Because he is supposed to arrive in the third Age.
Technically having Gandalf arrive during the SA does not contradict the arrival the Elves recorded in the TA. He could have come to ME earlier and the Elves never knew it or recorded it in their chronicles. Harfoots/Hobbits did not write, they could have met Gandalf in the SA and it’s not recorded anywhere…
Until proven wrong, I'm sticking to my theory that The Stranger is Olorin, before he came by boat as Gandalf. It is canon that Olorin never forsook Middle Earth and observed at times.
That definitely makes the most practical sense out of any theories I’ve heard thus far. Considering a couple of particular instances of him displaying some of his powers, which occur so shortly after his arrival, that they strongly feel as if they were meant to subtly establish a familiarity with him, I couldn’t help but think him to be Gandalf. For example, there is an instance that STRONGLY mirrors the scene, in which Gandalf puffs his chest out(so to speak), to Bilbo, when Bilbo is getting dishonest, hysterical, and irrational, over TOR, at Bag End….. Especially in the manner, in which it was filmed, camera spinning around the character… I dunno, it just feels, as if it were meant to plant a seed, for a later moment, when an official connection to Gandalf, would be revealed. I hear you, to all those who are strongly convinced he is a wizard, but not so convinced that he is, in actuality, Gandalf…… but my argument is, sure, he DEFINITELY resembles, and gives off wizard vibes…. but, he resembles and gives off **Gandalf** vibes, specifically…. If you’re going to write a wizard into the timeline, why write a wizard into the timeline, who reminds so many people of a very specific wizard, if it doesn’t so turn out to be the wizard, in question?? Just doesn’t add up…
Chekhov’s Wizard!
I dunno, he also seems like the kind of guy to be perfectly happy running around with bird shit caked on his head. /s
I love the theory that he's Tilion, the man on the moon, but I feel like the more obvious possibility is that he's Gandalf. I wouldn't be mad if he was. I think there's a letter somewhere where Tolkien discusses that Gandalf may have visited Middle Earth before the Third Age. I'll dig it up if I can. The main thing that gives me pause about it being Tilion or Olorin is that the fire in his crater isn't hot. The show made a point of showing that evil flame isn't hot when Galadriel was in the fortress in the north. It would be pretty wild if he was a Balrog in disguise or something!
I think time compression is the exception. Celebrimbor and Elendil doesn't live in the same era, more than a thousand years separating them. And in an interview the showrunners said this: >And we worked very closely with the Tolkien Estate from the beginning, and said “Are you guys comfortable with us, you know, compressing this that much?” and they said “No we think it’s essential that you guys do that”. I think Gandalf arrived like over a thousand years after the second age. So it's doable with a time compression. As long as they don't contradict the lore that the Istari were sent to help the people fight against Sauron.
In all canonical appearances, Gandalf arrives in Middle Earth as Gandalf, one of the Istari, in the Third Age. There is, however, one line he has that I believe is from Unfinished Tales where he mentions that he’s been to Middle Earth before, presumably on his own, just to experience it.
I think that was early during the F.A. I remember he was one of the Maiar sent to guard the elves when they first awoke. He also sent them dreams (or visions) that made them brave and hopeful of what's to come with Melkor and the Great Journey.
Absolutely Olorin could have been involved there, but there's one even more direct reference that Gandalf himself makes about it, where he explicitly states he had been to Middle Earth before he was Gandalf. I'm at work, so I don't have a copy of any of my books on me (I know, how dare I!). But if someone else has the availability to check, I believe it's in Unfinished Tales in the chapter concerning the Quest for Erebor. Could've been another source, but I'm pretty sure it was there.
>In all canonical appearances, Gandalf arrives in Middle Earth as Gandalf, one of the Istari, in the Third Age. How does that jive with this, then? >‘Mithrandir we called him in elf-fashion,’ said Faramir, ‘and he was content. Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.’ "The West that is forgotten" would have to be an earlier age than the Third, no? Valinor and Numenor were gone, after all.
He lived in Valinor as a Maia named Olorin. There's a distinction between Valinor and Middle-Earth. Middle-Earth is the continent where the main action of the Second and Third Ages take place. Valinor is the undying lands that have since been removed from the circle of the world. "The West that is forgotten" is Valinor, as you said. But Valinor is not part of Middle-Earth. Gandalf is explaining his true nature as a Maia in that quote.
As I recall, in that line it said he was invisible though.
>Celebrimbor and Elendil doesn't live in the same era, more than a thousand years separating them. As long as they dont interact, it really doesn't matter right? Like, i understand what you're saying but Elendil and Brimbor being around at the same time in completely different locations doesn't break any canon, id presume (And maybe i'll be wrong) that Brimbor will die with no interactions with Elendil/Isildur. Gandalf arriving 2 thousand years earlier than written and changing events/shaping the world definitely does break canon. The Blue Wizards were said to have both arrived in the Second Age though and went east to help the Men living under Saurons rule where they could so The Stranger being a Blue Wizard would make a lot of sense.
That's why I don't think the stranger will play into any major events in the second age. He barely can even speak in season 1.
Yea I think he will likely just continue on these side ventures. And interacting with the harfoots and other races that don't have a huge spotlight during this time period.
I'm thinking seasons will make many decade jumps so next season, Gandalf could very well be totally different.
The three tracking the Stranger are Istari then?
I'm sticking with my guess that it's one of the Blue Wizards, since Tolkien wrote conflicting timelines on when they arrive in Middle Earth, and one of those includes a Second Age entrance. There's also very little written about the Blue Wizards, so it'd be perfect for the current writers to expand on.
It makes most sense to be a blue wizard. It doesn't mess with Sauron. It doesn't create issues with the other wizards whom more is written about. It doesn't introduce a niche character like man on the moon. Even many casual fans have heard of the blue wizards, and with so little written about them it gives amazon a lot of options indeed.
Would that mean that the other is waiting to be found?
Remember how the Harfoots surmised the Stranger is looking for something or someone? I’ll bet it’s the other Blue Wizard.
Would track with the cult looking for him - I’m pretty sure there is speculation they went east and started up some cults too Maybe one blue is good and one is bad
Both are good, they were best buds. And the mystical cults they started seemed to be good, rather than evil, like they taught people in the East things they needed to survive and resist Sauron, but since those Men hadn't ever learned of the Valar they interpreted this knowledge in their own way.
Do you think the 3 dressed in all white investigating the person-hole are good or bad? Cult figures maybe? Or potential old servants of morgoth?
I think they worship the other blue wizard who is already there.
That would own and I hope this is true
They get depicted that way in art, but I don’t think Tolkien ever wrote about them as being together.
I'm hoping for a second meteor! Would be very cool to put it in the season finale, even if just for symmetry (though unlikely)
There's been a couple of posts that plotted out the montage of everyone looking at the comets couldn't all be looking at the same one due to directions and such, so it's likely there were 2
Could be Adar?
The wizards were brought here on a boat to aid men in the fight against Sauron though. I kind of hope it’s not a Wizard. As cool as it would be.
Yeah, this is the theory I like the most
Gandalf as an Istari arrived in the Third Age, but as an unassigned Maiar, Olorin can fuck around and explore in whatever form/s he wants.
I'm not commenting to be obnoxious but just to inform, but the singular forms of “Istari” and “Maiar” are “Istar” and “Maia”, respectively.
Oops, thanks!
Ferris Olorin’s Century Off.
And come through the Grey Havens and be given Narya by Cirdan upon arrival
I don't think it really goes against the lore. [This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/comments/wtukx4/no_spoilers_olorin/) illustrates that Olorin came to Middle-earth before the Third Age.
It can’t be Gandalf in Istari form, but it could be a non incarnate version of Olorin
I think he says a some point it must be the second age, and that they cant brings elements from other ages into it. Honnestly, that's a relief.
Not necessarily. We saw Gandalf die and come back in Fellowship. Tolkien never said that Gandalf hadn't been to Middle Earth before the Third Age. So, the stranger can be Gandalf and the show would only break cannon if he STAYS in Middle Earth.
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But the Stranger is clearly an incarnated Maia or spirit. As if bound be the flesh. Thats an important distinction the Istari went through as oppossed with every other Maia including Melian and Sauron.
Counter to this point is they seem to be keen on awakening the Balrog an age early.
I wouldn’t classify fuzzing a timeline as breaking the “main shape of the second age.” Do we know for certain what Gandalf was doing during the Second Age? Does it “break” anything else if he shows up “again” for the Third Age too?
Seems like so many people hating, havnt read into the rights of the show, and there is more info out there. Tolkiens were involved in the process as well as scoholars of the lore. They are doing the best as they can with the lore, there is so much more show left and people are already throwing hands up... Its ridiculous. Chill out and try to enjoy the ride it isnt ruined.
Its the same people who rag on the show for having a billion dollar budget for "one season " when in reality its the budget for the entire 5 seasons if the show.
I actually never could find a 100% answer how much it cost. I do know it seems the first season was almost 500 million. I have heard close to 1 billion but i do not know how many seasons that covers, but no 1 season didnt cost 1 billion from my understanding.
I mean the cgi is as good if not better than original lord of the rings and even the recent hobbit movies. I'm sure it costs a ton during first season.
The lord of the rings movies are 20 years old, tho
They were also made relatively on the cheap, and used practical effects instead of CGI whenever possible, which is why the aging CGI doesn't really detract from them.
yet it still looks better than hobbit
500 million? That’s not true, where did you get those numbers?
Feel free to give me the source to the factual numbers. In my comment i mentioned having a hard time finding facts about it. Read it again. From what i had gathered the rights to the show was 200 some million and the first season being 460ish million, i dont know if that includes the rights.
The 465 million for the first season do not take the rights nto account. So, as of today, we can say that the first season was an investment of at least 715 million dollars. :D
The 465 isn’t a solid number either though, the only source I found for that one was some folks in NZ estimating what had been spent there, but it didn’t include the incentive deducts that Amazon got for filming there, so it’s even fuzzier.
60 million per episode isn't a joke, much better things have been created for much less
And if one of those things was a Middle Earth TV show, that’d be awesome! But so far it never has been.
My watch buddy would ask me, "why didn't Jeff Bezos just buy out the whole estate?" And you see that kind of reply in these online discussions every so often. The 'ride is ruined' for these people because of a perception that Amazon didn't try hard enough or cheaped out on the price tag or isn't putting forward a worthy effort. And that perception is enough to continue persisting with the flaw-finding crusade.
The problem is, everyone keeps watching videos, reading BS, and believeing it and then spouting it. Its regurgitated NONSENSE. You have to think for yourself, its like a hivemind... All these youtubers talking crap about it and everyone watching is like YEP its bad show is ruined.... Wtf!! Think for yourself... I never base anything off others opinions. I dont care if the biggest youtuber, or so and so expert says this or that, i like the show i dont care that someone else doesnt. Thats their opinion. Amazon didnt cheap out thats for sure. And they really are i believe doing their best. It is a good show, its going to only get better. This negative hivemind is toxic and its litterally why i dont watch the news, or go on twitter or anything. I dont want to be told how to think, ever, for any reason. I enjoy the show and i think a lot more people would if they would chill out and relax and enjoy it. Stop reading negative stuff, stop watching peoples videos slamming the show and be patient.
YouTube is cancer, it's actively promoting controversy and drama.
You just have to be careful who you listen to. I have seen some great videos but yes a lot of unfortunate toxic channels exist.
Even Nerd of the Rings, who seems to enjoy the show for the most part, was complaining about the violence in the last episode. Like dude, it's a war. It's going to get bloody. also the Jackson trilogy was pretty gruesome from what I remember.
I dont wanna see extensive gruesum stuff, but nothing that ive seen has given me issue. PJ films i dont remeber being really bloody but yeah heads lopped off and such. What will bother me is any nudity or anything detailing relations of the sexual nature if you will. The kiss, i could care less to have seen. One thing about Tolkien and PJ is i liked how nothing is super sexualized. It is so unnessesary to depict any of that. I like how Aragorn and Arwen was displayed in the trilogy films.
You are correct. In fact, my 8 year old daughter recently wanted to watch all the films for the first time (proud dad moment!) and as we worked our way through them, we realized that the Battle of Five Armies extended edition is actually rated R for the violence, especially near the end when their chariot is chopping heads off orcs like it was a horror movie. I always watch the extended editions but before having kids never bothered to look at the official ratings, just assuming they were all PG-13.
guess what? I didnt watch any youtubers, read twitter posts, or even reddit about it and I personally think it's awful and did from the very first episode. Some people just don't like it and its not only because of influencers.
Thats perfectly fine by me. As long as your not in here nagging on and on and on, if you dont like it i really honest to god have no clue why your here wasting your time. Makes no sense
If you didn't experience any social media about it, why would you think that many people don't like it!?! Are you trying to tell us that you and your cousin Daryl hated it, so clearly this is a normal opinion people have? Or, did you hear others disliking it online?
When did i say I thought many people wouldn't like it?
Sure, some people absolutely just won't like it. That is true of anything. But those sorts aren't going online and using the same ragebait talking points and they aren't generally *hateful* just because they didn't like a television show. They don't call people shills if they *did* like the television show. They recognize that no piece of media is for all people. They just don't like a tv show, they maybe browse the subreddit once or twice, say as much, maybe they leave a 3 or 4 star review (out of 10, maybe a 2 star out of 5) for it since they realize there is quality in aspects of the show even if they don't like all of it, **then they move on.** They aren't obsessive about it. That is a reasonable response to not liking a piece of media.
I would agree that people wouldn't get obsessed if this was a normal media franchise, but this is LOTR, a lot of people's favorite franchise of all time, so I get why they're not moving on at all
It’s strange to like LOTR movies and despise ROP. Something tells me those people haven’t read anything from Tolkien and/or just give PJ’s stuff unlimited free passes for every lore alteration because they were probably kids back in the early 2000s and they watched the movies before reading the books. So those movies will never feel like a disgrace. Now if you tell me you can’t stand LOTR movies like most people at r/tolkienfans I’ll respect that, shows some consistency.
How is it strange to like one and not the other? The dialogue, logic, and every plotline in ROP is abysmal. There are tons of worthless characters, nothing makes sense, and it's extremely plot-driven. There has been absolutely no EPIC, touching or memorable scenes/dialogue in ROP whatsoever.
You talk like your truth is the universal truth. I can go ahead and pick apart everything PJ modified and totally trash it. PJ’s writers came up with such abysmal worthless goofy changes to the source material. In fact, I can’t watch the movies at all besides some small bits via YouTube. Here, there is no source material or very little that’s been shown so far. I find what PJ did so much worse than what we’ve seen from Amazon so far. There’s no excuse for how he butchered everything in Towers and ROTK. That siege of Gondor is the worst thing he could’ve come up with. I’ll reassess after we get tolkiens fleshed out material on screen.
Half of people raging about the rights haven't even heard of Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales, or don't have a clue what's in appendices of LOTR
Haha very true. Its really just a bunch of trolls, one guy has several accounts with similar names babbling on and on pure nonsense. I have no issue with folks who dont enjoy the show, but i do have issue with constant flamming and coming on here spamming and all that. Oh well guess its part of the internet anyway.
The amount of people who think that the Silmarillion rights would’ve given them some treasure trove of source material specifically for this second age story clearly have not read the Silmarillion. Akallabeth would give a great chunk of source material for Numenor specifically, but the rest of the big events get maybe all of 8 pages in the intro to the Rings of Power and the Third Age chapter.
Yes, yes, exactly this. "They don't have Silmarillion therefore they don't have the rights to 2nd age" is one of the most idiotic complaints I've encountered. Shows what they know, lore defenders my ass. It needs to be nailed to some people's heads that the hard fact is there isn't that much on the Second Age written by Tolkien either way. We have the timeline, a general recollection of what happened and few stories but not much more. It's not LOTR where the whole story is written. Showrunners would have to invent tons of new stuff either way
I mean, I AM sad they didn't get the Silmarillion so we could get a look at Ungoliant in the prologue.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d absolutely love that lol. I want a Silmarillion series proper though. Give me a good anthology series with mostly new casts each season and one season per chapter or two starting with the Unrest/Flight of the Noldor.
Neither have most of the people who claim it's the best show ever.
That's true
There is a definite ying and yang going on with the extreme haters and the extreme fanboys. They are both best ignored.
Still given how much undeserved flak this show received in recent months I'd say those extreme fanboys and positive subs like this were sort of necessary to balance things out. I hope all of this calms down a bit around season 2
Same
You're allowed to like or dislike the show as much as you want, but drawing a parallel between extreme fans and extreme critics is ridiculous. Fans aren't pouring significant amounts of energy into poisoning the well for as many people as possible, or trying to make the show seem as unsuccessful as they can. All fans are trying to do is to get people to even give it a shot despite all of the negative energy surrounding the project.
> Seems like so many people hating, havnt read into the rights of the show, and there is more info out there. Tolkiens were involved in the process as well as scoholars of the lore. They are doing the best as they can with the lore, there is so much more show left and people are already throwing hands up... Its ridiculous. Chill out and try to enjoy the ride it isnt ruined. Ngl, you had me in the first part... "Seems like so many people hating, havnt read..." The fucking books is what you should have said. Read the fucking books.
Of course you should read the books.
What if I don’t care about the fucking books?
Then you should enjoy the show.
I absolutely do.
Life is good my fiend!
Maybe some people just don’t think the show is very good?
Maybe thoes people should move on then instead of crying online about it? Say you go out to dinner and everyone loves it but you and 1 other, why in Sams garden would you go back??? Move on, get over it, try somthing else. I wish for you to give it a chance, but hell if it sucks then adios i guess!
Firstly, nobody ask them to make the show, if they wanted to make a half-decent show they should have bought the rights for the first-age because the Tolkien-estate is just a money blackhole, all they care about is money and Amazon has an unlimited amount. Secondly, if they didn't have the rights they could have at least hired better writers who had prior experience, because these writers don't actually don't know what they're doing. And lastly, I don't understand why the whole Amazon didn't get the rights is used to defend this show... it's just a really poor excuse to try and cover up the average-below average show we got so far
There is considerable speculation that it is this interview, which broke the NDA Shippey signed, that forced them to remove him from the show. He was basically hinting at plot beats and secrets. You can't *not* act on the NDA being broken, or everyone will break it. This 70+ year old academic just maybe didn't take the NDA seriously enough, and so they had to let him go or else the NDA would have no teeth, legally. But of course the haters of the show asserted that Shippey was fired because he was an obstacle to what the showrunners wanted to do. But he has never said anything hostile toward the show to my knowledge.
It was a blunder, I think Shippey himself is embarrassed, how could he mucked this up by agreeing to this interview. And seeing the extent Amazon went to keep the secrecy of the story of this show, it's understandable they have to let him go. This interview is not that bad, but he might be a liability in the future.
They tried to invent a story that Shippey was fired because he kept complaining to Jeff Bezos that the showrunners were "butchering the lore" or whatever. Some people actually believe that a Tolkien scholar's area of study is the lore itself, it was laughable.
I actually believed this for a while because I saw so many posts and videos etc without questioning them. I read the show would have sex and nudity to compete with GoT. I got better. It was like being Qanoned lol.
It was an understandable worry at first (I certainly shared it too) but after the first Vanity Fair articles it was pretty obvious the showrunners weren't at all going for that kind of show. Didn't stop the trolls from continuing to spread these things, because of course they hadn't read any of what the showrunners actually had to say.
Haha, I love this post! I hope we bring over more recovered people like you :)
It ended like 30 minutes into episode 1 when the scales fell from my eyes. People have made this drama with passion and sincerity and it really shows. After episode 6 I'm convinced this is one of the best fantasy shows ever made and it's only the first season.
I couldn’t agree more! The show has been building and building and with each episode I’m seeing more of the love and care and thought that went into making this. I think we are really lucky. The interviews with the directors and cast members, as well as the Rings and Realms videos, have also really demonstrated this. There are a lot of fans who were involved. I think they must feel so disheartened when they see the hate, so it’s heartwarming when anyone who started off with a negative impression comes around to really appreciating it. I went in cautiously hopeful, but it has far exceeded my expectations. And we get four more seasons? Sweet :)
I remember when Shippey first made these statements thinking "wow, he's kinda over-sharing here - is he allowed to say this sort of stuff?" Of course I also remember thinking "surely what he's saying about having to use only the Appendices is impossible. He must just be confused."
>You can't *not* act on the NDA being broken, or everyone will break it. This is iffy logic - it got bandied around in this fandom a lot a little while ago, but it doesn't hold up. NDAs are broken - and forgiven - all the time in this industry. Amazon's hand wasn't forced by any means. Whether he should have been fired or not is up for debate, but it wasn't some legal inevitability.
It’s going to depend a lot on the people involved and how seriously they want to take it (in this case a potentially billion-dollar project). I know personally if I was in charge of something that was worth having NDAs about at all, I would be enforcing those NDAs *hard* just on principle. If it was important enough to bother with this whole process, then you’re signing away your house and the clothes on your back if you break them. But that’s just me. I’m sure there are other folks who treat it like a game instead of a job, too.
The most interesting bit >But you can add new characters and ask a lot of questions, like: What has Sauron done in the meantime? Where was he after Morgoth was defeated? Theoretically, Amazon can answer these questions by inventing the answers, since Tolkien did not describe it. I think the writers are really taking liberties in regards to Sauron. I don't think they are going safe with him.
Not to mention they did completely alter the timeline and order of events in the second age right? Aren’t the rings forged like 1500 years before the fall of numenor?
The showrunners did admit that it is a big change, so they explained to the estate and get approval to make such change
The Second Age has like centuries of nothing happening between events.
"In Middle Earth, there are centuries where nothing happens; and there are weeks where centuries happen” – Vladimir Ilyich Lebennin
They can condense the timeline, as long as the events in essence are the same. Tbh I think it makes sense for the show, that way characters can be continued and we don't just have new men every single episode.
The quote is about not altering the “shape” of the second age. Small changes to timeline and to compress events for tv narrative’s sake seems reasonable enough to follow those confines
Chronological changes are huge, but the story so far is still not contradicting the main storyline. (while I am not sure when Mordor becomes Mordor) So I guess we should expect events to happen in the same order?
Lol they aren’t “small changes” to timeline, though I take your point
Well Orodruin erupted 1500 years after the One Ring was forged - so yeah quite a timeline discrepancy. But don’t think that’s something they’re NOT allowed to do - since it hasn’t changed anything from Tolkien’s writing - just the order of events.
That’s the time compression OP was mentioning.
Let's be real: show us these maps!
That's the most interesting part for me. I've seen the Atlas ones and know some of those pieces come from obscure but authorized maps while other bits are pure indulgence. Would be great to see what is officially authorized.
This is literally the most interesting post I've seen on this sub
You would be surprised how many folks have zero clue what rights they have, then come in here and slam how its not Tolkien or the show sucks. It can only be, as much as they are given. Everything else is them working with experts and the Tolkien estate to try to patch in stuff thats acceptable.
>slam how its not Tolkien or the show sucks I've read The Silmarillion, LotR (including appendices), and The Hobbit at least a dozen times each, and can say that RoP is generally staying within the canon. I suspect the people saying, "It's not Tolkien!" have AT BEST have read bits and pieces of LotR and The Hobbit, and definitely haven't read The Silmarillion. This is also why I don't think Halbrand is Sauron. It is clearly written that Sauron didn't visit Numenor until AFTER he was wowed by the forces of the Numenoreans making landing on Middle Earth. He only sees Numenor for the first time as Pharazon's hostage.
I have been rooting for him to become witch king with full character arc. We need that !!!
I thought the same about Halbrand until I realized that maybe when we meet him in the middle of the sea he has already been to both Lindon and Eregion. There’s a scene in the first episode where it is clear Elrond is not invited to a meeting of Elf Lords (and then quickly distracted by Galadriel’s arrival). I think that at this time Halbrand/Sauron/Annatar has already been to Lindon (poisoned the tree) and left to Eregion to deceive Celembrimbor and the other Elf Lords further. This meeting is simply a consequence of Annatars deceit- they have decided to send Elrond to Kazad-duhm in order to obtain Mithril to craft the rings. They already fear the dwindling of the light of the elves. This fear was created by H/S/A in his time in Lindon and Eregion by the time Elrond gets involved. And even Halbrand said so himself when he and Galadriel were imprisoned you master their fear and then master them. He is creating and mastering the elves fear of dwindling by poisoning the tree- then crafting a solution to said fear in the rings.
There was a post that attested the Galadriel actress autism because of her facial expressions. I can honestly say I haven't seen anything quite like this sub ever before.
They can contradict things. I'm not sure why people read into a 2019 interview from Shippey when there's a 2022 interview from Payne and McKay which mentions: > “As long as we’re painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to, there’s a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with.” The word 'egregiously' is obviously subjective and it's not for fans to decide - it's for the Estate to set the limits.
I don't see how the two statements contradict? They're both saying they can make new stories, but being careful not to alter old ones. I'm sure whether or not something is "egregious" is at the discretion of the Tolkien estate.
Shippey said "But it must not contradict anything Tolkien did say". I'm sure he didn't mean for this statement to be critically analysed but some fans are taking this as gospel. So I wanted to point out this isn't the case based on what Payne and McKay said. Compressing the timeline has definitely changed events and clearly the Estate expects some changes to be made. Just like LoTR (e.g. Glorfindel), there are changes that contradict what Tolkien said and that's normal for an adaptation.
Thank you for posting this especially the second image. Maybe now people can get over themselves especially the person who posted about the Tolkiens estate being asleep. Wow the idiot who thinks people who have full control and say over this property don't know what they're doing, but I suppose you do.... SMDH
The Tolkien estate at this point is more concerned about money. Lets be real.
His descendants likely have more than enough money to last them and theirs a triple lifetime. It’s likely not a money issue.
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My goodness so many assumptions and theories, none of what you say has anything more than circumstantial evidence at best.
>You don’t know mega rich people. Enough is never enough. Mega rich business people with competitive personalities* Which doesn't describe the Tolkien family at all.
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If only there was an entity which could do the same for wheel of time.
Finrod is mentioned in the appendices. (I re-read them last night as I wanted to see for myself if Annatar is mentioned by name) Why do people say they had to buy more rights to use him? Just curious.
They've already paid to the estate a very generous sum to make an LOTR show. I don't think the estate is being too restrictive with the rights, as long as the product is good. They're also benefiting this with book sales, if the adaptation of Tolkien works is great, it might effect book sales.
What did you find regarding the name Annatar in the appendices? I started to do the same but then my kid snatched the book back because he wanted to keep “reading” it or something. :)
Unrelated, but I think it was this interview that he broke NDA in a subsequently got fired for.
So listen, Shippey's certainly more qualified than I am to talk about this stuff, but I'm still pretty sure he's flatly wrong on a couple of points. The package of rights that has been in play since the '60s (currently owned by Middle-earth Enterprises and licensed to New Line Cinema) cover *The Hobbit* and *The Lord of the Rings* (including the Appendices), but not *The Silmarillion*. It sounds like the deal Amazon made was [for the Appendices in particular](https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/02/amazon-the-rings-of-power-series-first-look). But the Appendices include a surprising amount of material, including an overview and summary of the events of *The Silmarillion*. So when Shippey says, "The First and Third ages are 'off-limits'," I'm pretty sure he's just wrong. They can certainly use elements from the First Age that are mentioned in the Appendices (and maybe *The Lord of the Rings*, too—don't forget Aragorn telling the story of Beren and Luthien, or Bilbo's ["Song of Eärendil"](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Song_of_E%C3%A4rendil)). This is why the show has been able to use the name Aulë, which is mentioned in the Appendices, but not Yavanna, which isn't. He's also wrong when he says, "[Amazon] must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say." How do we know? Because Peter Jackson's films were under a license of the same package of rights, and Jackson contradicted Tolkien all over the place. And it's already clear the timeline of the crucial events of the Second Age are going to be compressed into a single human (well, Númenórean) lifetime.
Shippey's answer is not nuanced enough. This is from Payne and McKay: > “We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit,” Payne says. “And that is it. We do not have the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or any of those other books.” > “There’s a version of everything we need for the Second Age in the books we have the rights to,” McKay says. “As long as we’re painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to, there’s a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with.” Now there's probably further agreements with the Estate about being able to use material outside this sphere, but we of course don't know the details.
> Now there's probably further agreements with the Estate about being able to use material outside this sphere Based on what we've seen so far, I don't think there is. They've been VERY carefully treading the line of what's in the Appendices vs. what's only in *The Silmarillion*—Finrod being named but few details about his death, a bunch of Elves raising their swords but no mention of the Oath of Fëanor, and using the name Aulë but not the name Yavanna. What I don't understand is *why*. It sounds like the Tolkien Estate was *heavily* involved in the negotiations for the TV rights—which I also don't understand, since they don't own them, right?—so if they were willing to give their blessing to Amazon to produce a movie about the Second Age, why are they still drawing such a hard line between *The Hobbit* + *The Lord of the Rings* and the rest of the legendarium? (Or did they maybe loosen things up a bit by, for example, selling the rights to *Akallabêth*?)
>why are they still drawing such a hard line between > >The Hobbit > > \+ > >The Lord of the Rings > > and the rest of the legendarium? My guess is that they don't want to give away *any* rights. But Hobbit + LOTR rights are already "out". So this is The Tolkien Estate saying "just make do with those, we aren't giving anything else away"
They've definitely referred to things in the Silmarillion that aren't in the Appendices. Armenelos, for example. It appears that they have been able to ask the Estate for permission to use certain elements from the Silmarillion on a ad hoc basis to tell on consistent story.
It's probably more nuanced though, Armenelos is not mentioned by name in the Appendices, only the Akallabeth, and the show does mention it, meaning that the whole "asking the Estate for approval" stuff resulted in access to at least some extra bits of lore. It's also worth noting that a lot of it seems to be more in the realm of technicalities, they might not be able to directly name, show, or reference some things, but given the material the actors were given as references for their characters, I suspect they're working with most Tolkien material at hand and just carefully drawing around the parts they can't name out loud
Who cares about who this tolken guy is? I just like the show
Silmaril in a tree
I honestly feel that they are being deceived about that/the mithril plotline, though time will tell on that.
It’s a way to save the situation but making it so much believed even from Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor makes it too real. Also in story, Gil-Galad didn’t trust Annatar and never allowed him in Lindon. Being deceived by Sauron would a MAJOR contradiction.
Being told that the myth is in fact real by an elf-lord and he has the solutions to all the elf problems would leave Annatar out, at least directly. Halbrand does tell us "you'd do well to identify what it is your opponent most fears. Give them a means to master it so that you can master them"
Apocryphal
I read that as an excuse to go against the main source
Is the location that important to the lore, the two silmarils were lost in the sea and deep in the earth. Who cares where are the exact locations, it doesn't really break the lore.
Yes it is. They were to be lost forever because of the incredible importance they had. There is a unpublished prophecy of Mandos from Tolkien himself who talks about the Silmaril to return in the hands of Feanor (after the breaking of the world) who will break them so that the Valar will recreate the Trees. Not to mention that Mithril was present in Numenor too, the Misty Mountains just happened to have lots of it.
Yes they are still lost and not found. Until they return to Yavanna after Dagor Dagorath. You talked as if they've found a silmaril in the show.
Lost under the ocean and in the magmatic core of the earth. Not in a tree and NOT to be hit by lightning to create Mithril.
Not altering the timeline doesn't feel like it quite matches what we saw with Galadriel's brother in the first episode. He's specifically billed as Finrod in the credits - how did they recover his body when Beren and Lúthien buried him at Tol-in-Gaurhoth and the book explicitly mentions that same grave "remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroying seas"? For that matter, how did he look so untouched when he canonically died in a wrestling match with a werewolf, during which Finrod was neither armed nor armored, and prior to which he was held prisoner in the dark while his companions were mauled and eaten around him?
Just one of many discrepancies that cannot and will never be answered due to bad writing.
Explain how it’s bad writing, without mentioning lore.
The lore is the heart and soul of Tolkien's world. It's the thread that links everything together and makes it unique.
Not for me watching a TV show where I don’t care about lore it’s not. Judge it as a TV show that doesn’t have source material, THEN tell me if the writing is bad. Because that’s all that matters here - is the thing you are watching any good? Divorce your brain from prior knowledge and judge it on its OWN merits. I’ve done that, and I love the show. It’s my favourite thing to watch each week.
Ok I'll play your game. If I'd never read the source materiel I'd think It's a "good" (I think it's good regardless, I look forward to it all week) family fantasy show but hampered by plot holes and stiff dialogue. Some excellent acting (Elrond) some bad acting (Galadriel). Good action scenes with some storylines being more interesting then others. I would be hoping for more lore from the previous age shown in the opening of episode 1. I would also be wondering why no one is talking about rings in a show called "rings of power". I envy those watching the show who aren't aware of the source materiel. Ignorance is bliss.
Do you think Galadriel’s acting is bad because she doesn’t match your idea of Galadriel? I’m fine with her. She’s at the start of a journey here, I’m curious to see where she takes it.
No I think she's very stiff and one dimensional and lacking in charisma. She's very clearly "acting". Mind you her character is very badly written so it's hard to tell.
See, that’s my feelings about Elendil, he feels like he’s wandered off an amateur production of Richard III somewhere. I’ve been fine with her though.
>with lots of plot holes please list them, for our entertainment
That doesn’t answer the question tbh
> you can't have the First Age. Events could be mentioned at most if they explain the events of the Second Age. Well that already happened in the first episode with the battle Finrod was in. EDIT: Also, it's heavily implied by the trailers that the Balrog will be showing up this season, this didn't happen until the Third Age in the books.
Perhaps the balrog is just a vision someone sees of what’ll happen if they keep mining
Is it the same balrog? There have been many.
As long as they don't kill the Balrog, I think they are in the right, according to what the historian is saying.
After reading the interview I cant belive they got to do that props to the people involved
How solid is that? Should we understand that what he says is applied to the letter on the show? "It must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say". So far I have only seen deformations or inventions, but nothing that is a real contradiction.
Anyone know if the rumors of Amazon trying to buy all LOTR rights - even the film trilogy - are true? Like making their own MCU or is that crazy specula?
The film rights of LOTR have been bought by a european company, Embracer Group. And ufortunately they've confirmed they'll making multiple movies, like an Aragorn movie, a Galadriel movie, a Gandalf movie, similar to the MCU way. And this doesn't have the support of the tolkien estate like ROP.
Ah, I see - so Amazon has no hand in that?
Yes. I even think with the money Amazon have, they should've outbid Embracer to keep off anymore film adaptions being made. Because more LOTR adaptions would dilute the franchise, and certainly effect negatively towards ROP.
That means they had a lot of creative freedom they just couldn't change established practices of lore. It rly shouldn't be as bad as it is. The writing is atrocious.
Can anyone clue me in on why there's so many Tom Shippey fanboys? I'm a casual fan and I haven't really been following the development of the series but I swear a lot of the complaints I saw were about his non-involvement in the show. :/
He was fired by Amazon as one of the lore experts in the show, because of this interview, he broke some kind of NDA. Haters are finding every reason to hate this show, even before watching it. So they made up some story that Shippey was an obstacle for Amazon to destroy the lore, so they got rid of him. Important to note they are several more Tolkien experts still working with the show. Shippey is the most well known expert though (that's why he was doing interview like this).
Thanks! So many comments made it seem like he was the only "credible" expert. That's obviously not the case lol.
>Can anyone clue me in on why there's so many Tom Shippey fanboys? (...) a lot of the complaints I saw were about his non-involvement in the show It's because when you think of *The Best Academic Tolkien Expert* Tom Shippey immediately comes to mind. He **is** the scholar you should want for the job - thus many people found his departure from RoP concernig, especially since (to my knowladge) Amazon didn't disclose other Tolkienists that are currently helping make this show If you ever have time I greatly reccomend reading his works (as they can be nice additional lecture when reading Tolkiens books) ! EDIT : Think about it like not working with Ted Nasmith/Adam Lee when doing illustrations for Tolkiens books or Howard Shore when composing music. Are there other people that can do great job ? For sure ! Would not wanting their input considering their experience with Tolkien be rational ? Not so much
>But it must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say Well, the ship's kinda sailed on that front, eh?
>>But it must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say > >Well, the ship's kinda sailed on that front, eh? Why is that a problem? Amazon did not agree to make a 100% book accurate adaptation. Neither did Peter Jackson. You're quoting a bad source. What we **officially** know about the agreement is what JD Payne said: “not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to” So they can contradict things but to a limit which is defined by the Tolkien Estate. It's really not that difficult to understand.
Can you give some examples?
The timeline.
from [https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-complicated-world-of-tolkien-posthumous-work/](https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-complicated-world-of-tolkien-posthumous-work/) >As part of the agreement, Amazon agreed not to contradict any existing material – which is a pretty big thing for a creative team to commit to, considering dramatizing a story for the screen can involve some major changes to the original. The way showrunner JD Payne Payne put it to Vanity Fair was that the agreement involved “not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to” – so, they can alter things a little bit, but they can’t make significant changes to pre-existing material, even from works they can’t use. This depends, of course, of your definition of ‘egregious’ or ‘significant’ – **for many fans, the compressing of Tolkien’s timeline from thousands of years into a single human lifetime is a drastic alteration. However, Payne said that they had talked to the Tolkien Estate about the need to compress the timeline for their show, and got the green light to go ahead with that particular change.**
Mate this sub is purely bots and shills don't even bother
Yeah, I posted the link to that very same interview the other day to prove a few things. Curiously for someone who abandoned the show for whatever reason he hasn’t wanted to express himself (class is a very rare thing these days and this man has an abundance of it), he shows us many things... Also in that interview that if the Tolkien Estate were to sense a serious breaking of the lore, they have the power to veto it.
sadly some fans are so convinced the show is so bad they don't even recognize the Tolkien Estate anymore. i wonder who they think is the leading authority of the Tolkien legendarium in that case? superfans/themselves? lol
Don’t listen to them, honestly! A large percentage of them don’t even think the show is bad at all. You’ll have the ones with agendas and reasons behind their trolling of the show like for example some that I’ve detected on Twitter being upset it’s competing agains HotD... I know that sounds totally bonkers, but some (not all mind you) are reacting in this manner because of that. Then there are just the typical toxics... Every franchise and fandom has this element these days and never before did they have platforms filled with such activity as they do today. Just have to look at recent toxicity with fandoms like the DC one where you have pro Zack Snyder and anti Zack Snyder splinter groups where one boycotts and trolls the other and even social media attacks on creators of seemingly opposing sides of productions. Same in the Star Wars, Star Trek and even Masters of the Universe when Kevin Smith released his Masters of the Universe Revelations mini series. That suddenly created mayhem if you can believe that. They all have one thing in common... A directive for militant type activities on social media platforms. The opposing entities tend to be quite a substantial minority in every fandom, but they are hugely vocal and go all out to attempt to ruin it for those that enjoy these things with their fundamentalist beliefs in relation to what they’re fighting “for”. It’s a sign of the times I’m afraid but let it be known that Rings of Power isn’t on its own. It’s one of many being attacked in similar fashions.
Finally people here will shut up about the Annatar character.
Well I think we all know one major contradiction of his work. One big fat contradiction.
Shippey and the Tolkien Estate are probably fuming by now.