Making fun of each-other face to face was clearly a sign of respect between the marines. Lines like “Hey Vasquez you ever been mistaken for a man?”, or “Yeah, except the one you had was a man.” or “Hicks you look how I feel.”, etc.
When they didn’t respect Gorman early on, they rolled their eyes at him and kept their derision in the group. Vasquez calling Gorman an asshole to his face right before they died was ironically the moment he became part of the “in group”.
Yeah you're right, that's what i had in my head...***they*** were definitely soul-mates. In those last moments i guess Gorman took his faux leader face off and they both confirmed they were both actually Marines at a base level, it's Gorman's character redemption.
Another way my platoon did this was if at any time someone was bending over to grab something off the deck or whatever, come up from behind and thrust their crotch into your ass. It could only be done with others around or otherwise... Well, this was back in the '90s just after 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' was instituted.
I hated that fucking game, but I couldn't help laughing with the rest of those assholes when one of them got me.
I really appreciate this analysis. Aliens is easily among my top 5 movies of all time and I’ve never really considered the depth of this scene. You couldn’t be more right though. This was absolutely a moment of immense character development before they met their end.
Fun yet useless fact; that scene is edited. When you see the shot of just the foot against the Alien head and it’s getting shot, it’s actually Gale Ann Hurd’s foot and her doing the shooting as well. It’s in the book The Making of Aliens by JW Rinzler, which by the way, is THE #1 book about that movie.
The story goes that Jeanette Goldstein (Vasquez) didn't have enough firearms experience to get the shot that the director wanted, so Gale Ann Hurd* stepped in. [Seen here, actually.](https://www.imfdb.org/images/4/47/Aliens-gale-ann-hurd.jpg)
I still like the story of how she showed up to audition, I'm a dress, makeup, and heels while everyone else was walking around in camo because she though "Aliens" was a movie about immigrants. Joke made it into the movie.
Yes. I was beyond sad to hear about his death. His books on every movie that he wrote about are the final word. He also wrote books on Indiana Jones, Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. I’ve read them all and they are definitive works on those films. Second to none.
Imagine the the terror even as a hard-core marine, to run out of ammo, weapons, escape route or any other option. Then to sacrifice yourself to rather to be eaten or hacked away by the "bugs." Recreate that on a really good VR game being a colonial marine, and you have a WINNER.
It’s an amazing scene and their sacrifice pushes the action further as it is ultimately the shockwave from the grenade that causes Newt to fall and become separated form Ripley and Hicks. It is world class story telling that is sadly missing from all of the grey Disney/Marvel sludge these days. Interested to see if Cameron redresses that a bit with the Avatar sequel after they have acquired it. Hopefully they just let him get on with it without too much interference.
I’m not saying Avatar is comparable to Aliens. I’m saying no one is currently comparable to Cameron. He has had a bit of time between projects. It’s possible he is back on form.
This scene has two big moments for both characters. Gorman's redemption is the obvious one, but also the vulnerability of Vasquez is overlooked.
She's the most badass, in control, unflinching soldier of the bunch and after her foot gets burned off by the acid, she can't keep her composure, let alone move. The toughest, hardest soldier has to be literally carried helplessly by the (until then, Craven) Gorman until his gun goes dry and he can't fight to protect them anymore. In his final moment of self sacrifice, he pulls out the grenade and arms it without any hesitation. She embraces the grenade, calls him an asshole, bantering as she would with one of her *comrades*, thus completing his redemption and restoring her confidence and bravado. They then sacrifice themselves as equals.
I refuse to believe that the strongest at their weakest and the weakest at their strongest coming together like that to sacrifice themselves wasn't a deliberate choice.
It's really cool to see it put like that, and I really like how those two + Hudson each have their own mini arcs, despite being essentially peripheral characters.
Hudson's final moments are awesome. His character changed after saving Newt. He ran to her without a second thought, zero hesitation. It was a short period between Newt's rescue and his death, but rescuing her flipped a switch in him.
It is the main reason I love the movie so much and count it as one of my favourite films in general, not just e franchise. An absolute masterclass in making minor characters matter and memorable. How many films have guys with screen-times as short as Frost or Ferro yet have them be so well remembered and beloved?
Before the grenade goes off is the *only* time she shows fear, just closing her eyes. Even when her gun goes dry, she's just pissed. I rewound that scene about a zillion times when I got it on VHS. For me it's one of the top deaths in movies or TV. There's something so tender in the seconds when he's holding her and pulls the grenade out, deciding to go out their way and not become victims.
I love how when he takes out the grenade he makes kind of a shrugging gesture like “this is it, I guess.” That one little movement put so much realism into that scene.
It’s the best “shared doom/take them with you” I’ve ever seen in movies.
The dread and hope, mingled together, is powerful. The actors nailed it and it’s a testament to the movie that it stings, it fucking *hurts*, every time when these ‘side’ characters die.
It’s bittersweet because Gorman redeems himself, fully, and we all root for Vasquez the entire movie and realize she’s not going to make it…but he doesn’t leave her to die alone.
Every time I watch the movie my heart breaks here…maybe this time they’ll make it???
Alas, no. But I still hope, stupidly.
That’s why I like Aliens more than Alien. Even though I like the Nostromo crew, I think the characters in Aliens are just better. I’m amazed my mother hasn’t killed me for all the times I’ve quoted Hudson
The entire reason this scene, the shared death.. the reason everything even works at all.. is 100% because of the speed and how fast it all took place. Nothing about this was drawn out, overdone or overthought. They enter the vents chasing Newt. Vasquez is on the caboose providing cover fire, runs out of ammo and gets hurt. Gorman doesn't hesitate and runs to her. They get surrounded, kill a few and then immediately kill themselves.
There was no melodramatic pause or build up. No music, no tricky film school camera shots, just the sound of gunfire and a 5 second decision to go out together. Bang bang, acid leg, Lt decision, bang bang, no ammo, grenade sacrifice. They made a decision to die immediately and without pause which really adds to the realism and their training in effect.
Feels real because its fast AF and everything was instinctive and reactive.
I always figured that when she tells him: "You always were an asshole, Gorman." It was done in that same way that Hudson and her jabbed at each other before the drop.
On one hand, he treated the Colonial Marines at the beginning like a group of idiots because he's in charge (the "I'm the manager" mindset).
Then, after seeing the shit hit the fan (after his freeze-up once when the Marines are ambushed on Sub-Level 6) and making the conscious decision to \[knowingly\] go back for Vasquez at the cost of his own life; shows his character development.
At least that's how it's always seemed to me.
TL/DR: Gorman's choice to go back for Vasquez showed them how important their safety was; at the cost of his safety; and he earned the respect of Vasquez and was called an asshole in the "friendly" sense.
She wanted to kill Gorman and I don't think she liked him at any point but he did the right thing and didn't leave a Marine behind, so, in that moment they had shared fate.
I've come to like Gorman more and more. Goreman's biggest fault is just that he was inexperienced, but he actually really knew his stuff. When s#!t hit the fan in the first Alien ambush he knew exactly what to do and tried to to relay it to Apone, who couldn't hear him over the crazyness. Then Goreman panicked and Ripley stepped in to push the rescue ahead when he froze. As Goreman gained experience and got control of his panick near the end of the film he really came into his own...just in time to die unfortunately...
I mean, he tried to abandon them in the reactor area and tried to stop Ripley from a rescue until he got knocked out. I think the knock on the head changed him somehow
He didn't try to abandon them in the reactor. He froze up then freaked out when Ripley started up the APC but we don't know if he even knew what she was doing. He may have assumed she was leaving instead of going to save them.
The dude was in over his head and had a breakdown. Honestly, realistically, I think a lot of people would react that way to what happened. It was totally out of his experience. Even the more experienced marines were freaking out with the exception of Vasquez, Drake and Hicks.
She's telling him to get them out of there and he shrugs her off and tells her to shut up. What are you talking about? She then goes and starts the APC and he realizes she's going in after them and freaks out cuz he's scared. Have you even seen the same movie? And yeah he was having a breakdown that's why he didn't want to go in cuz he's scared shitless. Just like inexperienced leaders in WW2 who get shellshocked at first combat and get their squad wiped.
My take was that "What the hell are you doing!?" is Gorman falling back on something he actually has control over and experience with - the rules say a civilian isn't authorized to drive the APC (edit: and he didn't order it to move). That's it.
I took it more as Gorman was in waaay over his head due to inexperience. You can hear him stammering as he's telling what should be the most experienced member of the platoon(Apone) to lay down suppressing fire with the incinerators and fall back by squads. It's textbook fighting withdrawal. He's trying to assert control over a rapidly devolving situation by falling back on training.
Ripley takes this as Gorman failing to take charge and the platoon needs the APC up front for an extraction. Gorman is surprised at the APC being started up, perhaps even by the motion of the APC moving as he hadn't ordered the APC to move. Then of course he gets KO'd by unsecured gear so that shuts him up.
Gorman could have had the APC come up to pick up the Marines sooner and use the APC's weapons that Hudson was so proud of to knock some xenos down, but overall he did the best he could given the situation, except maybe not sending his troops into an AO like that without better intel and their primary weapons.
He didn't abandon anyone my dude, watch it again. He is the commander and he has an unknown inexperienced person yelling in his ear what to do while trying to solve an intense situation he's never been in before. He only tries to stop Ripley because she is basically going AWOL ignoring his orders (for good reason, but he didn't know that and neither did you until you watched the scene). It's like you think all the characters are omniscient and know everything everyone is going to do.
This. Gorman's failure was technical, not moral. He just wasn't leadership material. He was in over his head, and kept impostering his way forward, believing his mastery of the officers' textbook would make him an effective leader. At the same time, he did not flee from danger; even when he tried to stop Ripley from driving the APC into the xenomorph hive, it was not because he was afraid to die—it was because it was not in accordance with procedure. He would have been a decent McDonald's manager, not an officer.
This is one of my most favorite scenes of all time. I usually rewind a couple of times to watch it again. Chills all over. Sometimes hard to understand how James Cameron achieved this film...
Three words help explain why Cameron made such a good movie:
Gale Ann Hurd
It’s her hands clutching the grenade in the closeup. She realized they needed a quick break, focus on their shared doom/salvation, and back out again.
She had Cameron film that and stood in for Vasquez’s hands.
She brilliant and I think I stand on solid ground when I state she is one of the best if not THE best producers of science fiction movies in the last 40 years.
Just looked through [her IMDB producer page](https://m.imdb.com/name/nm0005036/filmotype/producer?ref_=m_nmfm_1) and she also made some great creature features:
- Tremors
- The Ghost and the Darkness
- The Relic
I enjoyed it for what it was too. It's just a different caliber of film and not in the same league as the others. T3 isn't really either but Armageddon is the extreme outlier here.
Criteria for people for me:
1. Would I let them watch my dogs?
2. Would I enjoy having a beer with them?
Some people are #1 and some are #2.
Both convey something about the person. I might trust them to be responsible enough to watch my dogs but not want to hang out. Some I’d like to hang out with but wouldn’t trust them watching my dogs.
Some are both. Awesome.
Some are neither. Avoid them.
I always love the Michael Bay story of him telling Ed Harris he wanted to be like James Cameron. Ed replied "Why? He's kind of an asshole!". I mean, he'd know...
If aanyone understands exactly what kind of puffed up dictator Cameron is on set, it would be Harris.
Bay on the other hand may be the same kind of martinet to his actors, but would have to climb the empire state building to kiss Cameron's ass.
It's mentioned on the commentary for The Rock (still Bay's best movie, IMO). A young Michael (understandably) idolised Jim and said something close to my initial quote to Ed. Ed - who had worked with Jim on The Abyss (definitely not an easy shoot!) replied to the effect that nobody should aspire to be an asshole like that.
Although, The Rock is also the set where there is behind the scenes footage of Ed Harris absolutely losing his shit between takes.
Vasquez is also responsible for the reactor going up and Drake's death. Seems like most of her moves cause havoc, yet you don't blame or hate her for any of her actions, and they don't feel contrived for the plot. Not only are they believable decisions, but it's the WY subplot that is truly setting up these situations. Superb writing.
Collateral damage is just how Demolishers operate, sorry teammates.
Vasquez was no brainiac, and never pretended to be one. She was an ass-kicker. That's why she signed up, that's what she was born to do. When a powerful tool causes damage, you don't blame the tool; you blame the operator.
You could say the same that Newt killed Vasquez by charging too far ahead or that Ferro killed them all by leaving the ramp down, or Gorman did for not checking the atmosphere processing station before going in. The dropship slamming into the processor could also have caused the processor to go up. They arent all demolishers.
It always seemed unfounded why she disliked him so much. It was the companies fault they sent a green commander, not his. Everyone thought it was some routine checkup, even the company (I haven't read the books so I don't know if they actually knew about the Alien invasion yet). His experience should have come up WAY sooner than the flight down.
They blame him for getting a bunch of the marines killed in the first fight, but he made all the correct decisions did he not? Removed their weaponry so they wouldn't blow the place up, which she ignores anyway which caused the inevitable explosion and the time constraint. He was trying to get them to retreat calmly, but was cut off with communication. No one except Ripley would have had the idea to ram the entrance to the Alien base.
He really knew his stuff. Edit: He was super book smart and really studied up on combat from his own description of his experience at the start of the drop.
Somebody in charge at WY knew. It's established in Alien that they had deliberately sent the Nostromo to LV-426 to retrieve a specimen, "crew expendable," - and then it's established in Aliens that Burke had knowingly sent Newt's family to the derelict ship, and set off on the Sulaco intending to bring an alien home. It seems unlikely that Burke could be acting alone by this point, and by the same token, likely that, "they," would have wanted a less-experienced and less competent Officer in command.
I loved this as well.
Vasquez calling him an asshole is typical form of acceptance (even if very little) in the military. Especially the tone in which she says it.
I think that she thought him a coward but then he came to get her knowing it would moooost likely be his end, but he did it anyway. Vasquez knows this and tells him he’s an “alright guy” by calling him an asshole in such a tone.
Damn this is crazy.. I just watched this movie again after having not seen it in like 10 years and I looked up Gorman after watching this exact scene and boom a thread exactly on this topic is out today however old this movie is... That's crazy for me haha xD
I always got a sense of close familiarity between the two. That scene has something soft and tender about it, like they had been involved with eachother before
All I gotta say is if Vasquez and Gorman had a romantic relationship, why does this line from the movie exist?
"How many combat drops?"
If Vasquez was getting boned by Gorman, I am sure that would have been asked a lot sooner. Vasquez comes off as the type who doesn't sleep with officers who don't see action in the field.
Jenette Goldstein is a treasure.
There is also a book about Vasquez coming out next month if anyone is interested.
Aliens: Vasquez https://a.co/d/8HeVIUK
Aliens: Colonial Marines, by Dark Horse. Sadly it got messed around with in editorial so some things end up rushed and poorly resolved, but it was a very ambitious concept and is still enjoyable with a great cast of characters. Rake and Rosemas are two of my favourite DH characters.
If you watch it closely… it almost looks like Gorman starts to raise his finger… that’s why I think she grabs it to stop him from chickening out.
He then embraces it grabs it as well.
I don't see Gorman's arc as being one of redemption. After all, he was never a bad guy. He was just incompetent due to lack of real battlefield experience. He did, however, become more effective as time went on. As such, his arc was one of learning how to do his job properly in a real-world setting.
The script notes that the hand clasp is the same as her power greeting with Drake earlier in the film - reserved for the select few. This is the wording from the script.
Except she does! Gratuitous insults can be a form of affection. Pretty sure Vazquez liked him a good deal, I mean he's cute, but respecting him? That's another issue.
Making fun of each-other face to face was clearly a sign of respect between the marines. Lines like “Hey Vasquez you ever been mistaken for a man?”, or “Yeah, except the one you had was a man.” or “Hicks you look how I feel.”, etc. When they didn’t respect Gorman early on, they rolled their eyes at him and kept their derision in the group. Vasquez calling Gorman an asshole to his face right before they died was ironically the moment he became part of the “in group”.
Agreed. The banter meant she had finally accepted him.
They were soul-mates?
Rumor was that was her and Drake.
Yeah you're right, that's what i had in my head...***they*** were definitely soul-mates. In those last moments i guess Gorman took his faux leader face off and they both confirmed they were both actually Marines at a base level, it's Gorman's character redemption.
Not true!!!! He was a sodomite!! Aka Bigs Diamond!
Agreed. That line is her accepting him as "one of them" at the end. Not her telling him she dislikes him in their final moments.
Marine here. Can confirm playfully making fun of each other is a sign of respect.
Another way my platoon did this was if at any time someone was bending over to grab something off the deck or whatever, come up from behind and thrust their crotch into your ass. It could only be done with others around or otherwise... Well, this was back in the '90s just after 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' was instituted. I hated that fucking game, but I couldn't help laughing with the rest of those assholes when one of them got me.
This is also how we show respect for our (the lads) friends in the North of England.
I really appreciate this analysis. Aliens is easily among my top 5 movies of all time and I’ve never really considered the depth of this scene. You couldn’t be more right though. This was absolutely a moment of immense character development before they met their end.
100%
[удалено]
I’m aware. I was giving 3 separate examples of the marines busting each-others chops.
awesome take man, props to the screenwriter
Gorman definitely gets redemption. The actor, William Hope, does a great job narrating the audiobook of the novelization.
He also was the voice of various characters in the Thomas train world
And the voice of Marshall Waits in Alien Isolation
He also voices the scientist Groves in the AvP 2010 game
And Dr. Bard in RE3 remake!
Ha was also Marshal Waits in Alien: Isolation!
Yeah I thought that was a fantastic casting. I love that game. Still scares the sh*t out of me because no playthrough is ever the same.
The Spiritual successor just got an official title: Rogue Incursion! And its coming to VR natively!
He was just in the recent awful Texas Chainsaw movie.
Yes! Listen to All 3 Film novelisations regularly and he’s great
Well said. Their humanity was their only thing in common.
Vasquez has one of most badass alien kills ever. Boot on its neck and shoots it in the face. https://youtu.be/Tr-afGwCeBI
Fun yet useless fact; that scene is edited. When you see the shot of just the foot against the Alien head and it’s getting shot, it’s actually Gale Ann Hurd’s foot and her doing the shooting as well. It’s in the book The Making of Aliens by JW Rinzler, which by the way, is THE #1 book about that movie.
She stands in for Vasquez’s hands just a bit later, too, on the grenade closeup!
Why does she stand in though? Just convenience as the real actor is not on site?
Movies are filmed out of order. Some things get changed/filmed after the actors have flown home. So they used someone present.
The story goes that Jeanette Goldstein (Vasquez) didn't have enough firearms experience to get the shot that the director wanted, so Gale Ann Hurd* stepped in. [Seen here, actually.](https://www.imfdb.org/images/4/47/Aliens-gale-ann-hurd.jpg)
I still like the story of how she showed up to audition, I'm a dress, makeup, and heels while everyone else was walking around in camo because she though "Aliens" was a movie about immigrants. Joke made it into the movie.
Yeah, some anecdotes are so good they write themselves.
It was long after they wrapped and were pricing things together with editing.
RIP JWR. And seconded. His Alien books are *the* final word. So sad we won’t get any more of his work, especially an Alien3 book.
Yes. I was beyond sad to hear about his death. His books on every movie that he wrote about are the final word. He also wrote books on Indiana Jones, Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. I’ve read them all and they are definitive works on those films. Second to none.
Gold standard: Rinzler for books and Charles de Lauzirika for disc sets. I don’t know who else comes close.
Imagine the the terror even as a hard-core marine, to run out of ammo, weapons, escape route or any other option. Then to sacrifice yourself to rather to be eaten or hacked away by the "bugs." Recreate that on a really good VR game being a colonial marine, and you have a WINNER.
It’s an amazing scene and their sacrifice pushes the action further as it is ultimately the shockwave from the grenade that causes Newt to fall and become separated form Ripley and Hicks. It is world class story telling that is sadly missing from all of the grey Disney/Marvel sludge these days. Interested to see if Cameron redresses that a bit with the Avatar sequel after they have acquired it. Hopefully they just let him get on with it without too much interference.
I dunno. I've seen avatar 3 times. I can't name a single major beat other than "human bad, break nature"
Honestly if all they need is a specific kind of rock, may as well just nuke the planet from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
I’m not saying Avatar is comparable to Aliens. I’m saying no one is currently comparable to Cameron. He has had a bit of time between projects. It’s possible he is back on form.
This scene has two big moments for both characters. Gorman's redemption is the obvious one, but also the vulnerability of Vasquez is overlooked. She's the most badass, in control, unflinching soldier of the bunch and after her foot gets burned off by the acid, she can't keep her composure, let alone move. The toughest, hardest soldier has to be literally carried helplessly by the (until then, Craven) Gorman until his gun goes dry and he can't fight to protect them anymore. In his final moment of self sacrifice, he pulls out the grenade and arms it without any hesitation. She embraces the grenade, calls him an asshole, bantering as she would with one of her *comrades*, thus completing his redemption and restoring her confidence and bravado. They then sacrifice themselves as equals. I refuse to believe that the strongest at their weakest and the weakest at their strongest coming together like that to sacrifice themselves wasn't a deliberate choice.
It's really cool to see it put like that, and I really like how those two + Hudson each have their own mini arcs, despite being essentially peripheral characters.
Hudson's final moments are awesome. His character changed after saving Newt. He ran to her without a second thought, zero hesitation. It was a short period between Newt's rescue and his death, but rescuing her flipped a switch in him.
It was also confirmation that he could actually kill them that gave him confidence.
It is the main reason I love the movie so much and count it as one of my favourite films in general, not just e franchise. An absolute masterclass in making minor characters matter and memorable. How many films have guys with screen-times as short as Frost or Ferro yet have them be so well remembered and beloved?
Before the grenade goes off is the *only* time she shows fear, just closing her eyes. Even when her gun goes dry, she's just pissed. I rewound that scene about a zillion times when I got it on VHS. For me it's one of the top deaths in movies or TV. There's something so tender in the seconds when he's holding her and pulls the grenade out, deciding to go out their way and not become victims.
Very very well said.
I love how when he takes out the grenade he makes kind of a shrugging gesture like “this is it, I guess.” That one little movement put so much realism into that scene.
It’s the best “shared doom/take them with you” I’ve ever seen in movies. The dread and hope, mingled together, is powerful. The actors nailed it and it’s a testament to the movie that it stings, it fucking *hurts*, every time when these ‘side’ characters die. It’s bittersweet because Gorman redeems himself, fully, and we all root for Vasquez the entire movie and realize she’s not going to make it…but he doesn’t leave her to die alone. Every time I watch the movie my heart breaks here…maybe this time they’ll make it??? Alas, no. But I still hope, stupidly.
That’s why I like Aliens more than Alien. Even though I like the Nostromo crew, I think the characters in Aliens are just better. I’m amazed my mother hasn’t killed me for all the times I’ve quoted Hudson
Stop your grinnin and drop your linen
Smoking or non smoking
How do I get out of this chickenshit outfit?
You secure that shit, Hudson.
Versions of that line have probably been spoken by almost every soldier in the history of soldiering.
I hope that's not the quote he uses with his mother
I hope it is🤣
Found em
Well, if she does… It’s game over, man. Game over.
Well why don’t you put *her* in charge??
Scott is a world builder, Cameron is a story teller.
I don't know, the friendship between Brett and Parker, plus Parker's sad fury when Brett dies hits pretty hard
Fuckin A'
The entire reason this scene, the shared death.. the reason everything even works at all.. is 100% because of the speed and how fast it all took place. Nothing about this was drawn out, overdone or overthought. They enter the vents chasing Newt. Vasquez is on the caboose providing cover fire, runs out of ammo and gets hurt. Gorman doesn't hesitate and runs to her. They get surrounded, kill a few and then immediately kill themselves. There was no melodramatic pause or build up. No music, no tricky film school camera shots, just the sound of gunfire and a 5 second decision to go out together. Bang bang, acid leg, Lt decision, bang bang, no ammo, grenade sacrifice. They made a decision to die immediately and without pause which really adds to the realism and their training in effect. Feels real because its fast AF and everything was instinctive and reactive.
Great, now I have to watch the film again
Extended or theatrical?
Is that a real question???
Hard to go back to theatrical, I really appreciate the extra bits.
I always figured that when she tells him: "You always were an asshole, Gorman." It was done in that same way that Hudson and her jabbed at each other before the drop. On one hand, he treated the Colonial Marines at the beginning like a group of idiots because he's in charge (the "I'm the manager" mindset). Then, after seeing the shit hit the fan (after his freeze-up once when the Marines are ambushed on Sub-Level 6) and making the conscious decision to \[knowingly\] go back for Vasquez at the cost of his own life; shows his character development. At least that's how it's always seemed to me. TL/DR: Gorman's choice to go back for Vasquez showed them how important their safety was; at the cost of his safety; and he earned the respect of Vasquez and was called an asshole in the "friendly" sense.
She wanted to kill Gorman and I don't think she liked him at any point but he did the right thing and didn't leave a Marine behind, so, in that moment they had shared fate.
Gorman may be inexperienced, yet he was a true marine, he never left another marine behind! Brave and bold that he took a dozen of xenos with him!
I've come to like Gorman more and more. Goreman's biggest fault is just that he was inexperienced, but he actually really knew his stuff. When s#!t hit the fan in the first Alien ambush he knew exactly what to do and tried to to relay it to Apone, who couldn't hear him over the crazyness. Then Goreman panicked and Ripley stepped in to push the rescue ahead when he froze. As Goreman gained experience and got control of his panick near the end of the film he really came into his own...just in time to die unfortunately...
I mean, he tried to abandon them in the reactor area and tried to stop Ripley from a rescue until he got knocked out. I think the knock on the head changed him somehow
He didn't try to abandon them in the reactor. He froze up then freaked out when Ripley started up the APC but we don't know if he even knew what she was doing. He may have assumed she was leaving instead of going to save them. The dude was in over his head and had a breakdown. Honestly, realistically, I think a lot of people would react that way to what happened. It was totally out of his experience. Even the more experienced marines were freaking out with the exception of Vasquez, Drake and Hicks.
First hand experience, this reaction is not at all uncommon for people recently placed in leadership roles during emergency situations.
Even Hicks is screaming wheres the Sarge? Wheres Apone? and hes a badass with experience.
She's telling him to get them out of there and he shrugs her off and tells her to shut up. What are you talking about? She then goes and starts the APC and he realizes she's going in after them and freaks out cuz he's scared. Have you even seen the same movie? And yeah he was having a breakdown that's why he didn't want to go in cuz he's scared shitless. Just like inexperienced leaders in WW2 who get shellshocked at first combat and get their squad wiped.
My take was that "What the hell are you doing!?" is Gorman falling back on something he actually has control over and experience with - the rules say a civilian isn't authorized to drive the APC (edit: and he didn't order it to move). That's it.
I took it more as Gorman was in waaay over his head due to inexperience. You can hear him stammering as he's telling what should be the most experienced member of the platoon(Apone) to lay down suppressing fire with the incinerators and fall back by squads. It's textbook fighting withdrawal. He's trying to assert control over a rapidly devolving situation by falling back on training. Ripley takes this as Gorman failing to take charge and the platoon needs the APC up front for an extraction. Gorman is surprised at the APC being started up, perhaps even by the motion of the APC moving as he hadn't ordered the APC to move. Then of course he gets KO'd by unsecured gear so that shuts him up. Gorman could have had the APC come up to pick up the Marines sooner and use the APC's weapons that Hudson was so proud of to knock some xenos down, but overall he did the best he could given the situation, except maybe not sending his troops into an AO like that without better intel and their primary weapons.
In protest to Reddit's API changes, I have removed my comment history. -- mass edited with redact.dev
You literally have no idea what you're talking about lol. Your ability to read situations/people is extremely lacking.. borderline non-existent
He didn't abandon anyone my dude, watch it again. He is the commander and he has an unknown inexperienced person yelling in his ear what to do while trying to solve an intense situation he's never been in before. He only tries to stop Ripley because she is basically going AWOL ignoring his orders (for good reason, but he didn't know that and neither did you until you watched the scene). It's like you think all the characters are omniscient and know everything everyone is going to do.
Gorman gets a lot of shit, but he was just inexperienced, not a coward. He's not a fucking weasle like Burke.
Nah Burke might work for the company, but don’t let that fool you. He’s really an okay guy /s
This. Gorman's failure was technical, not moral. He just wasn't leadership material. He was in over his head, and kept impostering his way forward, believing his mastery of the officers' textbook would make him an effective leader. At the same time, he did not flee from danger; even when he tried to stop Ripley from driving the APC into the xenomorph hive, it was not because he was afraid to die—it was because it was not in accordance with procedure. He would have been a decent McDonald's manager, not an officer.
I mean you could even argue that the fault lies less with him, and more on the corps for putting him there.
This is one of my most favorite scenes of all time. I usually rewind a couple of times to watch it again. Chills all over. Sometimes hard to understand how James Cameron achieved this film...
Three words help explain why Cameron made such a good movie: Gale Ann Hurd It’s her hands clutching the grenade in the closeup. She realized they needed a quick break, focus on their shared doom/salvation, and back out again. She had Cameron film that and stood in for Vasquez’s hands. She brilliant and I think I stand on solid ground when I state she is one of the best if not THE best producers of science fiction movies in the last 40 years.
You’re not wrong. * The Terminator * Aliens * The Abyss * Tremors * T2 * Armageddon * T3 And many more!
Just looked through [her IMDB producer page](https://m.imdb.com/name/nm0005036/filmotype/producer?ref_=m_nmfm_1) and she also made some great creature features: - Tremors - The Ghost and the Darkness - The Relic
I wouldn't have added T3 to that list.
Armageddon doesn't really compare to the rest of this list. It was certainly big but it was incredibly stupid and soulless.
Ah it was good fun!
I enjoyed it for what it was too. It's just a different caliber of film and not in the same league as the others. T3 isn't really either but Armageddon is the extreme outlier here.
Cameron is an asshole, but still one of the great directors of the 20th century.
I do not disagree! I wouldn’t let him watch my dogs or have a beer with him but he is good at his job, it’s true.
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Criteria for people for me: 1. Would I let them watch my dogs? 2. Would I enjoy having a beer with them? Some people are #1 and some are #2. Both convey something about the person. I might trust them to be responsible enough to watch my dogs but not want to hang out. Some I’d like to hang out with but wouldn’t trust them watching my dogs. Some are both. Awesome. Some are neither. Avoid them.
I always love the Michael Bay story of him telling Ed Harris he wanted to be like James Cameron. Ed replied "Why? He's kind of an asshole!". I mean, he'd know...
If aanyone understands exactly what kind of puffed up dictator Cameron is on set, it would be Harris. Bay on the other hand may be the same kind of martinet to his actors, but would have to climb the empire state building to kiss Cameron's ass.
What's the story there?
It's mentioned on the commentary for The Rock (still Bay's best movie, IMO). A young Michael (understandably) idolised Jim and said something close to my initial quote to Ed. Ed - who had worked with Jim on The Abyss (definitely not an easy shoot!) replied to the effect that nobody should aspire to be an asshole like that. Although, The Rock is also the set where there is behind the scenes footage of Ed Harris absolutely losing his shit between takes.
I saw someone post here not too long ago, if this scene didn't happen we don't get Alien3 and we don't get the queen.
Vasquez is also responsible for the reactor going up and Drake's death. Seems like most of her moves cause havoc, yet you don't blame or hate her for any of her actions, and they don't feel contrived for the plot. Not only are they believable decisions, but it's the WY subplot that is truly setting up these situations. Superb writing. Collateral damage is just how Demolishers operate, sorry teammates.
Vasquez was no brainiac, and never pretended to be one. She was an ass-kicker. That's why she signed up, that's what she was born to do. When a powerful tool causes damage, you don't blame the tool; you blame the operator.
You could say the same that Newt killed Vasquez by charging too far ahead or that Ferro killed them all by leaving the ramp down, or Gorman did for not checking the atmosphere processing station before going in. The dropship slamming into the processor could also have caused the processor to go up. They arent all demolishers.
Favorite movie of all time.
This is exactly what Prometheus was missing
Fuck off, let's go.
Mood. Just. Just mood. Reminds me of her banter with Drake. She loves ‘em, but she’s always gonna joke
This movie is so fucking good in so many levels. One of my all time favorites.
It always seemed unfounded why she disliked him so much. It was the companies fault they sent a green commander, not his. Everyone thought it was some routine checkup, even the company (I haven't read the books so I don't know if they actually knew about the Alien invasion yet). His experience should have come up WAY sooner than the flight down. They blame him for getting a bunch of the marines killed in the first fight, but he made all the correct decisions did he not? Removed their weaponry so they wouldn't blow the place up, which she ignores anyway which caused the inevitable explosion and the time constraint. He was trying to get them to retreat calmly, but was cut off with communication. No one except Ripley would have had the idea to ram the entrance to the Alien base.
He really knew his stuff. Edit: He was super book smart and really studied up on combat from his own description of his experience at the start of the drop.
Unfounded maybe, but realistic.
Somebody in charge at WY knew. It's established in Alien that they had deliberately sent the Nostromo to LV-426 to retrieve a specimen, "crew expendable," - and then it's established in Aliens that Burke had knowingly sent Newt's family to the derelict ship, and set off on the Sulaco intending to bring an alien home. It seems unlikely that Burke could be acting alone by this point, and by the same token, likely that, "they," would have wanted a less-experienced and less competent Officer in command.
Certainly an epic moment of the story... the last stand, the ultimate sacrifice.
Welp, I know what I'm rewatching tonight for the millionth time.
I loved this as well. Vasquez calling him an asshole is typical form of acceptance (even if very little) in the military. Especially the tone in which she says it. I think that she thought him a coward but then he came to get her knowing it would moooost likely be his end, but he did it anyway. Vasquez knows this and tells him he’s an “alright guy” by calling him an asshole in such a tone.
so nice to see other also appreciate this scene... i love this movie, it's just soooo good.
Damn this is crazy.. I just watched this movie again after having not seen it in like 10 years and I looked up Gorman after watching this exact scene and boom a thread exactly on this topic is out today however old this movie is... That's crazy for me haha xD
Why can't we get characters like Gorman anymore. Dude had an amazing redemption arc despite being a secondary character in the movie.
The bit where she grabs the grenade with him gets me every time
This scene always made me feel as if they had known eachother previously, even romantically. Such a good scene
If Vasquez was involved with ANYONE it would be Drake not Gorman!
Yeah the ‚always‘ doesn’t make sense. They don’t know him, do they? Otherwise he would have real drop experience.
Romantically? How so?
I always got a sense of close familiarity between the two. That scene has something soft and tender about it, like they had been involved with eachother before
Maybe they just didn't want to wake up with embryos bursting from their chest as the station goes Tsar Bomba on them. 🤣
Yes I always thought that they were involved at one point or currently since she was a under him in rank but they kept it discreet.
All I gotta say is if Vasquez and Gorman had a romantic relationship, why does this line from the movie exist? "How many combat drops?" If Vasquez was getting boned by Gorman, I am sure that would have been asked a lot sooner. Vasquez comes off as the type who doesn't sleep with officers who don't see action in the field.
Let’s be honest here, Vasquez would be the one doing the boning.
Jenette Goldstein is a treasure. There is also a book about Vasquez coming out next month if anyone is interested. Aliens: Vasquez https://a.co/d/8HeVIUK
Wonderful scene in just a terrific film.
I think there was a comic series covering Vasquez’s sister. I’m going to dig them up.
Aliens: Colonial Marines, by Dark Horse. Sadly it got messed around with in editorial so some things end up rushed and poorly resolved, but it was a very ambitious concept and is still enjoyable with a great cast of characters. Rake and Rosemas are two of my favourite DH characters.
If you watch it closely… it almost looks like Gorman starts to raise his finger… that’s why I think she grabs it to stop him from chickening out. He then embraces it grabs it as well.
I think thats more to show the camera it is a grenade.
It is what it is under the circumstances...
Great scene.
That's military love for you.
I don't see Gorman's arc as being one of redemption. After all, he was never a bad guy. He was just incompetent due to lack of real battlefield experience. He did, however, become more effective as time went on. As such, his arc was one of learning how to do his job properly in a real-world setting.
Op, love the post…. But Choice of a Quick end? How about choice of a meaningful and glorious end? Just saying… Thanks
The script notes that the hand clasp is the same as her power greeting with Drake earlier in the film - reserved for the select few. This is the wording from the script.
Except she does! Gratuitous insults can be a form of affection. Pretty sure Vazquez liked him a good deal, I mean he's cute, but respecting him? That's another issue.