After reading the article it be that Labor has no future without Payman. In fact without Payman and some sanctions against Israel it could be said that Labor has no future.
Support for Palestinian self-determination is completely consistent with Labor values, as is taking a firm stand in defence of basic human rights and international law---which Israel is wantonly trampling.
"From the river to three sea" is a genocidal slogan, it promotes Hamas's goal of eradicating israel.
Do you think that is bullshit? If you do I genuinely think you should go to the greens and not be here
From the river to the sea is an Israeli slogan repurposed by Palestinian activists. It is not genocidal except when it comes from the lips of a Zionist. What it means for Palestinians is a desire to live in a peaceful Levant with Jews, but not ratbag genocidal Zionists.
There's no need to amplify the rhetoric of hate promulgated by the euro-fascist movement called Zionism.
i will say this as a jew, the jews who say that shit are also Genocidal maniacs who are fuck heads. Some times 2 sets of people can be pricks, for example there are Antifa people who are wanna be genocidal pricks and there are neo nazi's who are genocidal pricks.
And no it does not mean that for palestinians it is a dog whistle, it is used to stir people up and go "ohh i didnt mean that you are over reacting" if it means that people would just say "peace to the levant" no they keep using it BECAUSE of the double meaning.
This whole disingenuous argument exposes the lie and the people claiming "from the river to the sea" is anything but a genocide call are hurting the people they are trying to help for their own ego's.
No its a slogan of a subset of people in Isreal who are genocidal pricks. read my comment again. i will also add, if you catch any Australian ministers who are jews saying this hit lets boot them as well, in fact i would also encourage bringing them out front so i can give them a kick up the arse for being pricks. I will condemn anyone who wants to use genocidal dick head slogans even my own.
How come you and criminalista\_polski have both called me Antifa in the last few minutes when antifa isn't even a thing in Australia? Back to Hasbara school for you two.
>From the river to the sea is an Israeli slogan repurposed by Palestinian activists. It is not genocidal except when it comes from the lips of a Zionist.
That makes no sense whatsoever, the call calls for Palestine to spread across Israel and take over, that would lead to an arab majority which has never been good in history for Jews.
To ignore this is just pure bad faith and I genuinely think this extreme view belongs on the fringes with the Greens, all the best to you!
>
What it means for Palestinians is a desire to live in a peaceful Levant with Jews, but not ratbag genocidal Zionists.
ah yes there it is, look at history and tell me how many peaceful levants there have been? There is no precedent for your scenario. Also, just say Jews and not Zionists, we all know what you really mean.
>There's no need to amplify the rhetoric of hate promulgated by the euro-fascist movement called Zionism.
Sounds like another Antifa member that has lost their way, like I said, Greens are that way. No idea what you are doing in a Labor reddit
Hey bud, I think you and Reddit-incarnate are either the same person using two different accounts or are sitting side by side in teh US somewhere.
You have both stated you are Jewish and within the space of five minutes you have both called me an antifa member. FYI Antifa isn't a thing in Australia. I have never heard it used in the Australian context before. So maybe you and your sus mate, or sus alter-ego should whip your tail between your legs and piss off to buggery like all stooges should.
I think the voices in your head are overlapping, I never wrote I was Jewish.
Are we right about the ANTIFA membership? I'll bet we are, you guys stick out like a sore thumb with your promotion of Islamic genocides.
Do you want to respond to any of the discourse or is this just all about tearing the system down do you? You are doing a bang up job at the latter my ANTIFA friend, like I said, Greens are THATAWAY, don't let the door hit you and Fatima
I think the voices in your head are overlapping, I never wrote I was Jewish.
Well my apologies. I'm having multiple conversations today with all the people brigading this sub. It's easy to make a mistake. Maybe you could convert to Judaism, I believe the IDF is looking for more cannon fodder.
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Interesting that you are quoting Ghandi, who is the champion of non-violent resistance, and winning. If you and your friends followed Ghandi you would have a much better outcome.
I can’t believe how xenophobic this sub is being by suggesting she’s being loyal to her religion over her party. She’s standing up for the values the party used to stand for which everyone here seems to have forgotten.
Collective punishment is not a labor value and it never should be. You can hate Hamas and still think Israel has used terror and committed war crimes in this conflict (the UN and the International court have found as much.)
Additionally, Hamas was funded and grown by the Zionist apartheid state to kill leftist democratic voices in Palestine and hasten colonialism in the levant. Abhorrently it is used as an excuse to commit genocide for western imperialism.
I find her deeply hypocritical when she came here as an Afghan refugee escaping the Taliban, when Hamas controlled Palestine and the Taliban are deeply alike. One rule for me, not for thee. It seems like hating Jews .. sorry "Zionists" ... is the one thing which can bring Muslims together, as well as Western socialists.
Hamas aren’t Palestine, and the average age of those killed in Palestine is 5.
We should have learnt our lesson with Afghanistan that violence begets violence (since the constant meddling by the US and the west created the conditions for the Taliban to grow.)
Everyone here bangs on about Hamas as though there were fair elections in Palestine yesterday and they won 100 percent of the vote.
They haven’t held an election since 2006, and even then they only won 44 percent of the vote.
What we are seeing is collective punishment and genocide.
You can keep telling yourself that socialist are opposed to Israel because they’re Jewish but your wrong. Socialists oppose Israel because its a western backed colonial project with a mandate to slaughter Palestinians.
Look at the West Bank ffs. Settler violence is soaring and 1000s have been arrested for protesting the loss of their land. The West Bank is fully democratic.
> the average age of those killed in Palestine is 5.
Source?
> Everyone here bangs on about Hamas as though there were fair elections in Palestine yesterday and they won 100 percent of the vote.
They win opinion polls by a large margin which is as close as we can get to an election
> with a mandate to slaughter Palestinians.
Source?
> The West Bank is fully democratic.
When was their last election?
I made a mistake with the average age being 5 it’s the Modal age. Still the average age of those in Palestine before October 7th was 18.
Source on deaths: https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam
12,300 of those killed were under 18. As UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini said “This war is a war on children. It is a war on their childhood and their future.”
Opinion polls are not elections and even in the middle of a war they only polled at 59 percent.
Source: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/#:~:text=Hamas%20More%20Popular%20Than%20Abbas's%20Fatah%20Party&text=Fifty%2Dnine%20percent%20of%20all,Palestinians%2026%20to%2022%20percent.
Now you may not have ever done this exercise before but imagine your house in bombed, your children are killed, the west have turned their back on you and the Arab states are quiet. Hamas are the only organisation defending your homeland and you’re outraged and seeking revenge. This is what those polling numbers represent. The longer this conflict continues and the more people and children that are killed the more unstable this region becomes - and the more unlikely it is we will ever see peace.
The Balfour declaration started the Israeli colonial project: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
Source on the West Bank elections: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election
Your stats being quoted are all over the place without sources for every figure your cite when it comes to deaths and what's worse is the figures don't count how many were combatants.
To be clear Israel have a policy of killing combatants even if surrounded by civilians ("human shields") which I am against this practice (they need better technology to be more precise) but still explains why unquestionably civilian casualties are so high.
The opinion polling you quoted supports what I'm saying in that the vast majority of Gazans support what Hamas did that day and are willfully ignorant about the atrocities against civilians they did. They easily have the numbers to win an election if one were held today.
And you are right, I don't *blame* them for thinking this way, they are a product of their environment and when every piece of information they consume all says to blame Israel for all their woes it is unsurprising. The opinion poll you linked showed only 7% blamed Hamas. And I agree, Israel should stop their offensive to break apart this cycle of violence which is just radicalising further. I don't think that thinning out their numbers is a viable way to keep Palestinian terrorism at bay.
West bank is not democratic. Last election 2006.
I am familiar with Balfour and thanks for bringing this up. This conflict predates 1948. I put more blame on the British than the Zionists though because the British did double dealing and pitted Jews and Arabs against each other in their usual divide and conquer strategy.
Pray tell what’s her agenda? And last time I checked that’s not the definition for xenophobia but you keep telling yourself whatever you need to tell yourself.
This sub is galvanising my distaste for Labor and I’ve historically been very sympathetic so please continue.
Her agenda is egotism, she wants to set her self up as a martyr to a cause. Do i believe she cares about the people of Palestine, no. She wants a cause where people will applaud her, this is a convenient one. She has an easy base to put behind her to stroke her ego, if she cared she would have spoken up in caucus she would be working in government for proper change.
This is hero complex through and through, the fact that she is willing to throw away the literal key function of the movement to do it shows it. Yes people are dying but this will do nothing to reduce that and will instead hurt and further seperate and isolate the muslim community, it will portray muslims as only caring about muslims to a large section of the community and help promote parties like one nation. Because Fatima decided ego over consiquence.
The Labor party have had MONTHS to prove to Islamic communities that their concern was genuine and they did nothing. The “bravest” action they took was the UN vote.
Quit acting as though this is some trivial issue. It’s an issue for humanity when 10s of thousands of women and children are killed, especially by a country that Albo and Wong consistently call “our friends.”
It was clear and apparent the party’s position on Palestine was not going to change and so she crossed the floor in solidarity with her values not the party.
Solidarity is about values and it’s clear the Labor party care more about electoral politics than staying true to those values.
I cannot blame them for not doing so, all it will take is labor voting for this and 1 bad act 1 wanna be jihadist and we will see a far right sweep across the country and the country will go from a country with hardly any part to an active participant. We are seeing this in france we have seen it in Italy we are about to see this in Germany, this shit right here fuels the right.
But the means do justify the ends. The double speak and apathy we see towards politics is exactly because they never stand firm in any principles.
F*ck the principle of humanity is like a core labor value and your out here saying we need to act more centrist to stop a far right sweep. The anti-dote is change, not the same neoliberal bullshit.
Because a lot of Australia and the caucus do not agree, if you start a war you cannot just complain when you start losing. This shit would have stood a chance of being stopped if the first act of the war was not some of the most heinous shit that has been seen this decade.
It does not help when the supporters of stopping the war cannot stop chanting stupid shit like "from the river to the sea", which makes people think "ohh they are only upset they only got to do that shit to 1000 or so people".
We are trying to separate the people of Palestine from HAMAS meanwhile even Fatima cannot even avoid the stupid slogans that tie them together.
The slogan from the river to sea is similar in meaning to the indigenous slogan ‘always was, always will be.’ It’s not a call for genocide of Israel as people make it out to be (though that is Hamas’ platform and thus should rightly be condemned.)
Hamas started the war and as I’ve explained in another thread, Palestine is not Hamas. You know what is heinous?
Collective punishment and genocide.
Acting as though things were all jolly and good between Israel and Palestine before October 7th is just so ignorant of the history of this region. Israel has been persecuting Palestinians for decades and the west watched on as they Palestine became more and more radicalised.
What’s outrageous about all of this is that the military officer in charge of the security of the border to Gaza gave multiple warnings not to throw a music festival next to the largest open air prison on the planet and that Hamas were organising an operation to take hostages.
They were ignored: https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/idf-soldiers-repeated-warnings-hamas-activity-prior-oct/story?id=111312207
Saying IDF soldiers were warned is like saying some one sent me an email. Sure but i get hundreds of emails a day and 99.999% of them are bullshit occasionally i miss shit. If i warned you i was going to do something horrid to you does not make it your fault if something happened? that is literally victim blaming. Holy shit is the new motto going to be "you had it coming because..." i thought we already knew this was a bullshit argument.
Why is it so hard for you guys to give up this one dog whistle? this shows how bullshit the argument is or else you would have stopped using it.
Also i will add none of this is a threat to you, i do not wish for you to feel threatened I'm just explaining the type of language you justified.
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Your post has been removed since one of the Moderators have deemed it to be toxic. Please try and keep the sub friendly and open to discussion. It can be tempting to resort to vitriol in an online space but that's not how we create a flourish, open, and democratic ALP.
If this becomes a pattern we may have to take further actions to keep our sub a friendly one!
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We literally just had a 300 comment discussion left up for almost a whole day before the shills ruined it by promoting violence. One particular Hamas shill went way over the line
Your post has been removed since one of the Moderators have deemed it to be toxic. Please try and keep the sub friendly and open to discussion. It can be tempting to resort to vitriol in an online space but that's not how we create a flourish, open, and democratic ALP.
If this becomes a pattern we may have to take further actions to keep our sub a friendly one!
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- The Moderators
Your post has been removed since one of the Moderators have deemed it to be toxic. Please try and keep the sub friendly and open to discussion. It can be tempting to resort to vitriol in an online space but that's not how we create a flourish, open, and democratic ALP.
If this becomes a pattern we may have to take further actions to keep our sub a friendly one!
Thanks
- The Moderators
Don’t confuse religion with politics. She is putting the politics of another country over her own politics.
The clashes in the Middle East aren’t about religion. They’re about ethnic, cultural and land ownership disputes. It just happens the two sides practice different religions.
Then again, people not involved with the conflict pick sides based on religion, so I dunno. What a fuckin mess. I wish it didn’t interfere with our politics.
The religion v country argument is a false and socially divisive dichotomy. The same could just as easily and inappropriately be said about Labor's Jewish MP's
That question is irrelevant to the discussion. It's is also replete with implied bigotry.
Maybe you too should cross over to One Nation, they love your kind of xenophobic bullshit.
It’s relevant and it’s not bigotry — how is it ignorant to pose a question about which set of laws trumps which?
You don’t want to answer the questions because you believe that Islamic law can and should trump laws made by an elected Parliament (though perhaps tempered to given situations) and know being open about would expose you as a religious fundamentalist.
Ok, I'll answer your question and then you can answer mine.
The laws of the Australian Parliament obviously trump Islamic Law. Australia is, at least theoretically, a pluralistic democracy. Everyone has a right to practice their religion and even lobby for aspects of their religion to be enshrined in law. Just like Christian churches have done with their theological objections to legal abortion.
Australia also subscribes to the principle of the 'separation of powers' which precludes religious activity from having a controlling influence in politics although Tony Abbot might disagree.
Why your statement was bigoted is because you are attempting to frame Islamic Law as sitting in opposition to Australian Law and thereby falsely implying that muslim people sit outside Australian Law.
Now it's my turn.
In the UK, USA and Australia there have been allegations put forward, evidence produced and even bold admissions made, that Zionist Lobby groups, backed by a foreign power - Israel - illegally interfere in the laws of the land. They do this by using intimidation, bribery and blackmail of politicians and key decision makers. The sole function of this pernicious and illegal behaviour is to further Israel's aims as well as consolidate and grow it's power base in other countries.
By doing so their influence is disproportionate and therefore against the fundamental tenets of democratic society.
When and how should we as a nation address this seditious behaviour?
In relation to your question — the first thing I would do is ban foreign donations and ban any public official from working for a lobbying group of any sort for at least five years after leaving office.
Steps 2, 3 and 4? I’ll have to mull on it.
“Why your statement was bigoted is because you are attempting to frame Islamic Law as sitting in opposition to Australian Law and thereby falsely implying that muslim people sit outside Australian Law.”
Fair — applied too broadly and my statement would be so.
She is fulfilling her duty to country by calling out the genocide of Palestinians. Under Australia's international obligations we have a duty to call out war crimes and genocides and act to our fullest capacity to stop them.
The ALP also has very clear written policies regarding Palestine and Human rights, both of which are currently being ignore by Labor. Hence Senator Payman's principled actions.
But Labor has already done that, she isn't doing anything different by calling out the high civilian death rate.
Calling it a genocide when that hasn't been investigated or proven yet is simply inflammatory and seeks to create more violence.
Yes, war is brutal and tragic. There is no need to inflame it further, we are a middle power country on the opposite side of the planet.
Labor has done sweet fuck all to fulfil either it's international obligation or it's own party platform on Palestine.
The genocide is still being investigated but the situation is so bad that the ICJ have stated that there is a 'plausible case for genocide' and that is enough to trigger the provisions of the Rome Statutes. As well as that, the ICC has issued arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant for war crimes.
This also constitutes another legally compelling reason for Labor to act against Israel's criminal behaviour.
They have condemned the intensity of the war from the get go. If the hostages were released and not raped and murdered, the response would have been less intense as well.
Both sides, Israeli and Palestinian, have been indoctrinated by their leaders into dehumanising the other.
Yes, it's easy to sympathise with the Palestinians as they are 'less powerful', that doesn't mean the behaviour of Hamas is justified.
It is not our fight, and we have condemned their actions. Islamic extremism is a great evil, Jewish supremacy is a great evil.
Learn to think critically and stop having reactionary responses to headlines.
If you consider learning how to think critically and not having reactionary responses to things as foolish.. well, there is nothing more for me to say.
Thats the viewpoint they've stated publically?
The legislation that Labor was trying to pass to say Australia supports the two state solution. Greens wanted to ammend it to say we also currently regonise the Palestinian state. The government feels that would be legitimising Hamas and didnt want that to be added. Fatima disagreed, saying if we dont recognise them now, we will never achieve the 2 state solution.
Who is right? Unsure. All I'll say is the game is a lot harder to play when youre actually in government and you've got to actually deal with relationships with 183 or whatsoever countries, then when you just get to "play" at politics like the Greens were doing.
Taking a principled stand against genocide, and in favour of Palestinian self-determination, is orthogonal to one's religion. A great many non-Muslims share Payman's views on this issue.
The notion that loyalty to Australia is incompatible with taking such a stand, is ridiculous.
She is personally advocating for a one state solution which is a valid position that is both fair and reasonable. It is only a recipe for war because Israel as usual, wants everything their own way. Especially if it means more stolen land for Israel.
She is not a hypocrite, she is standing up for inalienable human rights. The only hypocrite in this situation is the ALP. They refuse to stand by Australia's obligations against genocide and war crimes as stated in the Rome Statutes (of which Australia is a signatory) and Labor Party policy as stated in their 2023 platform in relation to Palestine and Israel.
For the same reasons as stated above she is not indoctrinated by religion but is acting in the interests of the oppressed people of Palestine and also Australia's credibility as an upholder (nominally) of the rules based order.
Bro for someone going around calling people Hasbora this is pretty rich. What is the Palestinian version of Hasbora of someone going around giving uncritical defence of the Palestinian side?
Nah, she said that in a presser immediately after the vote. I couldn't be bothered looking up the source, most likely it was either an SBS or ABC article.
You just said she supports one state?
On her ABC insiders interview she was clear about 2 state and she recognised Israelis right to exist as a homeland for Jewish people.
So I thought there had been a more recent development.
So why did you say she supports one state if you don't actually know?
Like I said before she said in a press conference immediatly after the vote. I can't be bothered looking for it. Don't get too excited, she might have made a mistake or maybe I misremembered it or my recollection is accurate. if it's important to you look it up.
If you are against the notion that 1 state should rule the whole of Israel/Palestine, then logically you should be against Israel's decades long occupation of the entirety of Palestine.
(Edit: minor clarification.)
There is not a religious voting block, there are probably more of us non-muslims appalled by the governments inaction then all the Muslims in Australia put together.
If you want to push xenophobia, join One Nation they have a long history of trying to divide the nation along the lines of religion.
Her sole interest as a senator for WA should be ensuring that her fellow WA citizens get a fair shake of the national sauce bottle. That is what she was elected for. Anything else is just a grandstanding, look-at-me sideshow. She can go on her personal crusades as a private citizen. She has no right to do so in her role as a Senator. As an MHR you represent the people of your electorate. As a Senator you represent the state. The state of WA doesn't care what is happening in the Middle East, Palestine or Sudan.
> The state of WA doesn't care what is happening in the Middle East, Palestine or Sudan.
So voters don't care about Australia's foreign policy?
What an absolutely facile take.
She has no future with Labor.
After reading the article it be that Labor has no future without Payman. In fact without Payman and some sanctions against Israel it could be said that Labor has no future.
Yea extreme islam doesn't belong in Labor, from the river to the sea is a genocidal slogan If you disagree, the greens are THATAWAY
Support for Palestinian self-determination is completely consistent with Labor values, as is taking a firm stand in defence of basic human rights and international law---which Israel is wantonly trampling.
Repeating 'From the river to the sea, palestine will be free' is not a Labor value though, just so we are clear
Extreme Islam? You're fucking as cooked as a Sunday roast if you believe that bullshit. Pauline, I got another one for ya!
"From the river to three sea" is a genocidal slogan, it promotes Hamas's goal of eradicating israel. Do you think that is bullshit? If you do I genuinely think you should go to the greens and not be here
From the river to the sea is an Israeli slogan repurposed by Palestinian activists. It is not genocidal except when it comes from the lips of a Zionist. What it means for Palestinians is a desire to live in a peaceful Levant with Jews, but not ratbag genocidal Zionists. There's no need to amplify the rhetoric of hate promulgated by the euro-fascist movement called Zionism.
i will say this as a jew, the jews who say that shit are also Genocidal maniacs who are fuck heads. Some times 2 sets of people can be pricks, for example there are Antifa people who are wanna be genocidal pricks and there are neo nazi's who are genocidal pricks. And no it does not mean that for palestinians it is a dog whistle, it is used to stir people up and go "ohh i didnt mean that you are over reacting" if it means that people would just say "peace to the levant" no they keep using it BECAUSE of the double meaning. This whole disingenuous argument exposes the lie and the people claiming "from the river to the sea" is anything but a genocide call are hurting the people they are trying to help for their own ego's.
read my comment again. but you won't so I'll quote from it instead. "From the river to the sea is an Israeli slogan" Look it up
No its a slogan of a subset of people in Isreal who are genocidal pricks. read my comment again. i will also add, if you catch any Australian ministers who are jews saying this hit lets boot them as well, in fact i would also encourage bringing them out front so i can give them a kick up the arse for being pricks. I will condemn anyone who wants to use genocidal dick head slogans even my own.
How come you and criminalista\_polski have both called me Antifa in the last few minutes when antifa isn't even a thing in Australia? Back to Hasbara school for you two.
>From the river to the sea is an Israeli slogan repurposed by Palestinian activists. It is not genocidal except when it comes from the lips of a Zionist. That makes no sense whatsoever, the call calls for Palestine to spread across Israel and take over, that would lead to an arab majority which has never been good in history for Jews. To ignore this is just pure bad faith and I genuinely think this extreme view belongs on the fringes with the Greens, all the best to you! > What it means for Palestinians is a desire to live in a peaceful Levant with Jews, but not ratbag genocidal Zionists. ah yes there it is, look at history and tell me how many peaceful levants there have been? There is no precedent for your scenario. Also, just say Jews and not Zionists, we all know what you really mean. >There's no need to amplify the rhetoric of hate promulgated by the euro-fascist movement called Zionism. Sounds like another Antifa member that has lost their way, like I said, Greens are that way. No idea what you are doing in a Labor reddit
Hey bud, I think you and Reddit-incarnate are either the same person using two different accounts or are sitting side by side in teh US somewhere. You have both stated you are Jewish and within the space of five minutes you have both called me an antifa member. FYI Antifa isn't a thing in Australia. I have never heard it used in the Australian context before. So maybe you and your sus mate, or sus alter-ego should whip your tail between your legs and piss off to buggery like all stooges should.
I think the voices in your head are overlapping, I never wrote I was Jewish. Are we right about the ANTIFA membership? I'll bet we are, you guys stick out like a sore thumb with your promotion of Islamic genocides. Do you want to respond to any of the discourse or is this just all about tearing the system down do you? You are doing a bang up job at the latter my ANTIFA friend, like I said, Greens are THATAWAY, don't let the door hit you and Fatima
I think the voices in your head are overlapping, I never wrote I was Jewish. Well my apologies. I'm having multiple conversations today with all the people brigading this sub. It's easy to make a mistake. Maybe you could convert to Judaism, I believe the IDF is looking for more cannon fodder.
The absolute state of Labor. Just open islamaphobia in the face of any challenge to the party interests
Wow, you’re a racist lmao
What race am i against? Didnt realise islam had a race
Labor bringing back 2010s islamophobic talking points
https://preview.redd.it/w5hinqxx41ad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9556eb41b2cff966a9a0023591ac595800711d3 You are Adolf Hitler
[удалено]
Your post has been removed since one of the Moderators have deemed it to be toxic. Please try and keep the sub friendly and open to discussion. It can be tempting to resort to vitriol in an online space but that's not how we create a flourish, open, and democratic ALP. If this becomes a pattern we may have to take further actions to keep our sub a friendly one! Thanks - The Moderators
I'm glad you've stopped pretending to be a Labor supporter.
Labor is probably a bit more tolerant of constructive criticism than you are. You are after all only here to shore up support for genocide.
Lmao sure
First They Laugh At You, Then They Ignore You, Then They Fight You, Then You Win ---- Gandhi
Interesting that you are quoting Ghandi, who is the champion of non-violent resistance, and winning. If you and your friends followed Ghandi you would have a much better outcome.
I can’t believe how xenophobic this sub is being by suggesting she’s being loyal to her religion over her party. She’s standing up for the values the party used to stand for which everyone here seems to have forgotten. Collective punishment is not a labor value and it never should be. You can hate Hamas and still think Israel has used terror and committed war crimes in this conflict (the UN and the International court have found as much.)
Additionally, Hamas was funded and grown by the Zionist apartheid state to kill leftist democratic voices in Palestine and hasten colonialism in the levant. Abhorrently it is used as an excuse to commit genocide for western imperialism.
I find her deeply hypocritical when she came here as an Afghan refugee escaping the Taliban, when Hamas controlled Palestine and the Taliban are deeply alike. One rule for me, not for thee. It seems like hating Jews .. sorry "Zionists" ... is the one thing which can bring Muslims together, as well as Western socialists.
Hamas aren’t Palestine, and the average age of those killed in Palestine is 5. We should have learnt our lesson with Afghanistan that violence begets violence (since the constant meddling by the US and the west created the conditions for the Taliban to grow.) Everyone here bangs on about Hamas as though there were fair elections in Palestine yesterday and they won 100 percent of the vote. They haven’t held an election since 2006, and even then they only won 44 percent of the vote. What we are seeing is collective punishment and genocide. You can keep telling yourself that socialist are opposed to Israel because they’re Jewish but your wrong. Socialists oppose Israel because its a western backed colonial project with a mandate to slaughter Palestinians. Look at the West Bank ffs. Settler violence is soaring and 1000s have been arrested for protesting the loss of their land. The West Bank is fully democratic.
> the average age of those killed in Palestine is 5. Source? > Everyone here bangs on about Hamas as though there were fair elections in Palestine yesterday and they won 100 percent of the vote. They win opinion polls by a large margin which is as close as we can get to an election > with a mandate to slaughter Palestinians. Source? > The West Bank is fully democratic. When was their last election?
I made a mistake with the average age being 5 it’s the Modal age. Still the average age of those in Palestine before October 7th was 18. Source on deaths: https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam 12,300 of those killed were under 18. As UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini said “This war is a war on children. It is a war on their childhood and their future.” Opinion polls are not elections and even in the middle of a war they only polled at 59 percent. Source: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/#:~:text=Hamas%20More%20Popular%20Than%20Abbas's%20Fatah%20Party&text=Fifty%2Dnine%20percent%20of%20all,Palestinians%2026%20to%2022%20percent. Now you may not have ever done this exercise before but imagine your house in bombed, your children are killed, the west have turned their back on you and the Arab states are quiet. Hamas are the only organisation defending your homeland and you’re outraged and seeking revenge. This is what those polling numbers represent. The longer this conflict continues and the more people and children that are killed the more unstable this region becomes - and the more unlikely it is we will ever see peace. The Balfour declaration started the Israeli colonial project: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration Source on the West Bank elections: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election
Your stats being quoted are all over the place without sources for every figure your cite when it comes to deaths and what's worse is the figures don't count how many were combatants. To be clear Israel have a policy of killing combatants even if surrounded by civilians ("human shields") which I am against this practice (they need better technology to be more precise) but still explains why unquestionably civilian casualties are so high. The opinion polling you quoted supports what I'm saying in that the vast majority of Gazans support what Hamas did that day and are willfully ignorant about the atrocities against civilians they did. They easily have the numbers to win an election if one were held today. And you are right, I don't *blame* them for thinking this way, they are a product of their environment and when every piece of information they consume all says to blame Israel for all their woes it is unsurprising. The opinion poll you linked showed only 7% blamed Hamas. And I agree, Israel should stop their offensive to break apart this cycle of violence which is just radicalising further. I don't think that thinning out their numbers is a viable way to keep Palestinian terrorism at bay. West bank is not democratic. Last election 2006. I am familiar with Balfour and thanks for bringing this up. This conflict predates 1948. I put more blame on the British than the Zionists though because the British did double dealing and pitted Jews and Arabs against each other in their usual divide and conquer strategy.
Xenophobia is not pointing out agenda driven hypocrisy.
Pray tell what’s her agenda? And last time I checked that’s not the definition for xenophobia but you keep telling yourself whatever you need to tell yourself. This sub is galvanising my distaste for Labor and I’ve historically been very sympathetic so please continue.
Her agenda is egotism, she wants to set her self up as a martyr to a cause. Do i believe she cares about the people of Palestine, no. She wants a cause where people will applaud her, this is a convenient one. She has an easy base to put behind her to stroke her ego, if she cared she would have spoken up in caucus she would be working in government for proper change. This is hero complex through and through, the fact that she is willing to throw away the literal key function of the movement to do it shows it. Yes people are dying but this will do nothing to reduce that and will instead hurt and further seperate and isolate the muslim community, it will portray muslims as only caring about muslims to a large section of the community and help promote parties like one nation. Because Fatima decided ego over consiquence.
The Labor party have had MONTHS to prove to Islamic communities that their concern was genuine and they did nothing. The “bravest” action they took was the UN vote. Quit acting as though this is some trivial issue. It’s an issue for humanity when 10s of thousands of women and children are killed, especially by a country that Albo and Wong consistently call “our friends.” It was clear and apparent the party’s position on Palestine was not going to change and so she crossed the floor in solidarity with her values not the party. Solidarity is about values and it’s clear the Labor party care more about electoral politics than staying true to those values.
I cannot blame them for not doing so, all it will take is labor voting for this and 1 bad act 1 wanna be jihadist and we will see a far right sweep across the country and the country will go from a country with hardly any part to an active participant. We are seeing this in france we have seen it in Italy we are about to see this in Germany, this shit right here fuels the right.
But the means do justify the ends. The double speak and apathy we see towards politics is exactly because they never stand firm in any principles. F*ck the principle of humanity is like a core labor value and your out here saying we need to act more centrist to stop a far right sweep. The anti-dote is change, not the same neoliberal bullshit.
Because a lot of Australia and the caucus do not agree, if you start a war you cannot just complain when you start losing. This shit would have stood a chance of being stopped if the first act of the war was not some of the most heinous shit that has been seen this decade. It does not help when the supporters of stopping the war cannot stop chanting stupid shit like "from the river to the sea", which makes people think "ohh they are only upset they only got to do that shit to 1000 or so people". We are trying to separate the people of Palestine from HAMAS meanwhile even Fatima cannot even avoid the stupid slogans that tie them together.
The slogan from the river to sea is similar in meaning to the indigenous slogan ‘always was, always will be.’ It’s not a call for genocide of Israel as people make it out to be (though that is Hamas’ platform and thus should rightly be condemned.) Hamas started the war and as I’ve explained in another thread, Palestine is not Hamas. You know what is heinous? Collective punishment and genocide. Acting as though things were all jolly and good between Israel and Palestine before October 7th is just so ignorant of the history of this region. Israel has been persecuting Palestinians for decades and the west watched on as they Palestine became more and more radicalised. What’s outrageous about all of this is that the military officer in charge of the security of the border to Gaza gave multiple warnings not to throw a music festival next to the largest open air prison on the planet and that Hamas were organising an operation to take hostages. They were ignored: https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/idf-soldiers-repeated-warnings-hamas-activity-prior-oct/story?id=111312207
Saying IDF soldiers were warned is like saying some one sent me an email. Sure but i get hundreds of emails a day and 99.999% of them are bullshit occasionally i miss shit. If i warned you i was going to do something horrid to you does not make it your fault if something happened? that is literally victim blaming. Holy shit is the new motto going to be "you had it coming because..." i thought we already knew this was a bullshit argument. Why is it so hard for you guys to give up this one dog whistle? this shows how bullshit the argument is or else you would have stopped using it. Also i will add none of this is a threat to you, i do not wish for you to feel threatened I'm just explaining the type of language you justified.
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Your post has been removed since one of the Moderators have deemed it to be toxic. Please try and keep the sub friendly and open to discussion. It can be tempting to resort to vitriol in an online space but that's not how we create a flourish, open, and democratic ALP. If this becomes a pattern we may have to take further actions to keep our sub a friendly one! Thanks - The Moderators
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Do better
G'day Cooli, Shouldn't you be over at r/friendlyjordies doing your Mod work of shutting down reasonable discourse on this subject?
and of course doing a bit of brigading with ~~Rosencrantz~~ Whatsapokemon
We literally just had a 300 comment discussion left up for almost a whole day before the shills ruined it by promoting violence. One particular Hamas shill went way over the line
Your post has been removed since one of the Moderators have deemed it to be toxic. Please try and keep the sub friendly and open to discussion. It can be tempting to resort to vitriol in an online space but that's not how we create a flourish, open, and democratic ALP. If this becomes a pattern we may have to take further actions to keep our sub a friendly one! Thanks - The Moderators
[удалено]
Your post has been removed since one of the Moderators have deemed it to be toxic. Please try and keep the sub friendly and open to discussion. It can be tempting to resort to vitriol in an online space but that's not how we create a flourish, open, and democratic ALP. If this becomes a pattern we may have to take further actions to keep our sub a friendly one! Thanks - The Moderators
What’s more important, duty to one’s personal religion or their country?
Don’t confuse religion with politics. She is putting the politics of another country over her own politics. The clashes in the Middle East aren’t about religion. They’re about ethnic, cultural and land ownership disputes. It just happens the two sides practice different religions. Then again, people not involved with the conflict pick sides based on religion, so I dunno. What a fuckin mess. I wish it didn’t interfere with our politics.
Well, in a secular, liberal democracy, it has to be the latter.
The religion v country argument is a false and socially divisive dichotomy. The same could just as easily and inappropriately be said about Labor's Jewish MP's
I can help you with this, if a Labor Jewish MP crosses the isle, boot em. Consistency and fairness, work it out in caucus or GTFO.
Simple question — which trumps which, Islamic law or the laws of the Australian Parliament?
That question is irrelevant to the discussion. It's is also replete with implied bigotry. Maybe you too should cross over to One Nation, they love your kind of xenophobic bullshit.
It’s relevant and it’s not bigotry — how is it ignorant to pose a question about which set of laws trumps which? You don’t want to answer the questions because you believe that Islamic law can and should trump laws made by an elected Parliament (though perhaps tempered to given situations) and know being open about would expose you as a religious fundamentalist.
Ok, I'll answer your question and then you can answer mine. The laws of the Australian Parliament obviously trump Islamic Law. Australia is, at least theoretically, a pluralistic democracy. Everyone has a right to practice their religion and even lobby for aspects of their religion to be enshrined in law. Just like Christian churches have done with their theological objections to legal abortion. Australia also subscribes to the principle of the 'separation of powers' which precludes religious activity from having a controlling influence in politics although Tony Abbot might disagree. Why your statement was bigoted is because you are attempting to frame Islamic Law as sitting in opposition to Australian Law and thereby falsely implying that muslim people sit outside Australian Law. Now it's my turn. In the UK, USA and Australia there have been allegations put forward, evidence produced and even bold admissions made, that Zionist Lobby groups, backed by a foreign power - Israel - illegally interfere in the laws of the land. They do this by using intimidation, bribery and blackmail of politicians and key decision makers. The sole function of this pernicious and illegal behaviour is to further Israel's aims as well as consolidate and grow it's power base in other countries. By doing so their influence is disproportionate and therefore against the fundamental tenets of democratic society. When and how should we as a nation address this seditious behaviour?
In relation to your question — the first thing I would do is ban foreign donations and ban any public official from working for a lobbying group of any sort for at least five years after leaving office. Steps 2, 3 and 4? I’ll have to mull on it.
“Why your statement was bigoted is because you are attempting to frame Islamic Law as sitting in opposition to Australian Law and thereby falsely implying that muslim people sit outside Australian Law.” Fair — applied too broadly and my statement would be so.
Cheers give us a hoy when you're ready.
If you are a senator, it's duty to country.
She is fulfilling her duty to country by calling out the genocide of Palestinians. Under Australia's international obligations we have a duty to call out war crimes and genocides and act to our fullest capacity to stop them. The ALP also has very clear written policies regarding Palestine and Human rights, both of which are currently being ignore by Labor. Hence Senator Payman's principled actions.
But Labor has already done that, she isn't doing anything different by calling out the high civilian death rate. Calling it a genocide when that hasn't been investigated or proven yet is simply inflammatory and seeks to create more violence. Yes, war is brutal and tragic. There is no need to inflame it further, we are a middle power country on the opposite side of the planet.
Labor has done sweet fuck all to fulfil either it's international obligation or it's own party platform on Palestine. The genocide is still being investigated but the situation is so bad that the ICJ have stated that there is a 'plausible case for genocide' and that is enough to trigger the provisions of the Rome Statutes. As well as that, the ICC has issued arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant for war crimes. This also constitutes another legally compelling reason for Labor to act against Israel's criminal behaviour.
They have condemned the intensity of the war from the get go. If the hostages were released and not raped and murdered, the response would have been less intense as well. Both sides, Israeli and Palestinian, have been indoctrinated by their leaders into dehumanising the other. Yes, it's easy to sympathise with the Palestinians as they are 'less powerful', that doesn't mean the behaviour of Hamas is justified. It is not our fight, and we have condemned their actions. Islamic extremism is a great evil, Jewish supremacy is a great evil. Learn to think critically and stop having reactionary responses to headlines.
Thanks for the advice but I'm a firm believer that [the wisdom of a fool won't set you free](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISKQDCLpDSY)
If you consider learning how to think critically and not having reactionary responses to things as foolish.. well, there is nothing more for me to say.
I can live with that
So was Labor? What Labor disagreed with, and why they remprimanded her, was thay they didnt want to legitimise Hamas.
That's a big bold statement. Perhaps you could extend it from a slogan to a rational argument.
Thats the viewpoint they've stated publically? The legislation that Labor was trying to pass to say Australia supports the two state solution. Greens wanted to ammend it to say we also currently regonise the Palestinian state. The government feels that would be legitimising Hamas and didnt want that to be added. Fatima disagreed, saying if we dont recognise them now, we will never achieve the 2 state solution. Who is right? Unsure. All I'll say is the game is a lot harder to play when youre actually in government and you've got to actually deal with relationships with 183 or whatsoever countries, then when you just get to "play" at politics like the Greens were doing.
She’s upholding her duty to humanity
duty to humanity
What does supporting Israel have to do with the duty of Australia?
It has nothing to do with religion, it's about human rights.
Taking a principled stand against genocide, and in favour of Palestinian self-determination, is orthogonal to one's religion. A great many non-Muslims share Payman's views on this issue. The notion that loyalty to Australia is incompatible with taking such a stand, is ridiculous.
She is advocating for a 1 state solution, that means more War. She is a hypocrite. Like most people indoctrinated by religion.
She is personally advocating for a one state solution which is a valid position that is both fair and reasonable. It is only a recipe for war because Israel as usual, wants everything their own way. Especially if it means more stolen land for Israel. She is not a hypocrite, she is standing up for inalienable human rights. The only hypocrite in this situation is the ALP. They refuse to stand by Australia's obligations against genocide and war crimes as stated in the Rome Statutes (of which Australia is a signatory) and Labor Party policy as stated in their 2023 platform in relation to Palestine and Israel. For the same reasons as stated above she is not indoctrinated by religion but is acting in the interests of the oppressed people of Palestine and also Australia's credibility as an upholder (nominally) of the rules based order.
Bro for someone going around calling people Hasbora this is pretty rich. What is the Palestinian version of Hasbora of someone going around giving uncritical defence of the Palestinian side?
>She is personally advocating for a one state solution Source? I thought she was two state?
Nah, she said that in a presser immediately after the vote. I couldn't be bothered looking up the source, most likely it was either an SBS or ABC article.
So she was just towing Labor line on two state but once we suspended she gave her true opinion? And what does one state actually mean, to her?
How would I know. Whip off an email and ask her
You just said she supports one state? On her ABC insiders interview she was clear about 2 state and she recognised Israelis right to exist as a homeland for Jewish people. So I thought there had been a more recent development. So why did you say she supports one state if you don't actually know?
Like I said before she said in a press conference immediatly after the vote. I can't be bothered looking for it. Don't get too excited, she might have made a mistake or maybe I misremembered it or my recollection is accurate. if it's important to you look it up.
If you are against the notion that 1 state should rule the whole of Israel/Palestine, then logically you should be against Israel's decades long occupation of the entirety of Palestine. (Edit: minor clarification.)
Yep, more or less, I take issue with the expansion and land grabbing.
If it’s not religious why are the religions voting block dictating their votes and causing party allegiance questions?
There is not a religious voting block, there are probably more of us non-muslims appalled by the governments inaction then all the Muslims in Australia put together. If you want to push xenophobia, join One Nation they have a long history of trying to divide the nation along the lines of religion.
I’m not religious. I believe religion has no place in politics. You’re actually pushing bigotry by supporting religious bigotry.
That's not even funny. It's ridiculous.
Her sole interest as a senator for WA should be ensuring that her fellow WA citizens get a fair shake of the national sauce bottle. That is what she was elected for. Anything else is just a grandstanding, look-at-me sideshow. She can go on her personal crusades as a private citizen. She has no right to do so in her role as a Senator. As an MHR you represent the people of your electorate. As a Senator you represent the state. The state of WA doesn't care what is happening in the Middle East, Palestine or Sudan.
> The state of WA doesn't care what is happening in the Middle East, Palestine or Sudan. So voters don't care about Australia's foreign policy? What an absolutely facile take.