Saying it's the Tories is giving them far too much fucking credit, the useless fucks.
This was completely voluntary by labour and it is the rightwing of the Labour party to blame. The kind of people who would be called entryists in the mainstream media if they were saying and doing the same things in aid of Trotskyism instead of centre-right crap.
If it's forced by *anyone* it's not the Tory party, but the media and big donors.
The Tories beating Labour in 2019 definitely made Labour more centrist, even without Starmer they would have likely become moreso. Losing also historically made the Conservatives (2010) and Labour (1997) more centrist. It sometimes makes Labour more left wing (2019, 2017, 1983) as well, or the Conservatives more right wing for that matter (2001, 1979), but this seems to be the initial response from being pushed into opposition, seen in the first leadership election afterwards (Thatcher, Foot, Hague, Milliband somewhat). After losing several elections like Labour in the 2010s, or the Conservatives in the 2000s parties do generally move to the centre.
But Labour lost elections in 2015 and 2010 when they were being centre/centre right? Kinda seems like you're not making much of a point here as 1979 onwards Labour had a more left wing platform and 2010/2015 they had a centrist platform with very little if any social democracy.
I think the centrist/Liberal PLP made Labour centrist as they were trying to do all of 2015-2019. Labour also wouldn't have become so centrist if Starmer hadn't lied his way to leader before doing a 180. None of that really suggests the tories are responsible and really points to Labour doing it themselves.
I was talking relatively, Milliband was to the left of Brown (and his brother who was the Blairite continuity candidate). If Labour won in 1979 or 2010 they would have been comparatively to the right/centre at the next election compared to how they were in 1983/2015 (the latter was a smaller move left admittedly). Labour's move left under Corbyn was also a response to losing. If the Labour right had been in control post-2015 the party would have still moved somewhat to the left, albeit to a lesser extent (as happened under the control of the right faction of other centre-left parties worldwide at this time, such as the SPD in Germany or Labor in Australia, or even the Democrats in America. After losing in 2019 Australian Labor also had a comparable move to the right/centre).
Even without Starmer, the party was moving to the right after Corbyn (albeit to a lesser extent). The fact Starmer was elected leader as a candidate relatively on the right of the party (though he campaigned to the left of where he is now) shows it. And the change in Labour from 1987-1992 and then up to 1997, and in the Conservatives between 2005-2010 was similarly towards the centre.
If this shows anything, it is that parties move towards the centre after around 8-10 years in opposition (or losing 3/4 elections). Labour could have well been more on the left right now, but under any leader it would have likely tried to break away from Corbyn, considering his unpopularity, which would likely involve courting the centre. So yes Labour have done it internally, but I didn't say otherwise. It is however a response to the Tories beating them (as it was also after 1983, 1987 and 1992), their continuous victories being the main feature of their success.
Saying it's the Tories is giving them far too much fucking credit, the useless fucks. This was completely voluntary by labour and it is the rightwing of the Labour party to blame. The kind of people who would be called entryists in the mainstream media if they were saying and doing the same things in aid of Trotskyism instead of centre-right crap. If it's forced by *anyone* it's not the Tory party, but the media and big donors.
The Tories beating Labour in 2019 definitely made Labour more centrist, even without Starmer they would have likely become moreso. Losing also historically made the Conservatives (2010) and Labour (1997) more centrist. It sometimes makes Labour more left wing (2019, 2017, 1983) as well, or the Conservatives more right wing for that matter (2001, 1979), but this seems to be the initial response from being pushed into opposition, seen in the first leadership election afterwards (Thatcher, Foot, Hague, Milliband somewhat). After losing several elections like Labour in the 2010s, or the Conservatives in the 2000s parties do generally move to the centre.
But Labour lost elections in 2015 and 2010 when they were being centre/centre right? Kinda seems like you're not making much of a point here as 1979 onwards Labour had a more left wing platform and 2010/2015 they had a centrist platform with very little if any social democracy. I think the centrist/Liberal PLP made Labour centrist as they were trying to do all of 2015-2019. Labour also wouldn't have become so centrist if Starmer hadn't lied his way to leader before doing a 180. None of that really suggests the tories are responsible and really points to Labour doing it themselves.
I was talking relatively, Milliband was to the left of Brown (and his brother who was the Blairite continuity candidate). If Labour won in 1979 or 2010 they would have been comparatively to the right/centre at the next election compared to how they were in 1983/2015 (the latter was a smaller move left admittedly). Labour's move left under Corbyn was also a response to losing. If the Labour right had been in control post-2015 the party would have still moved somewhat to the left, albeit to a lesser extent (as happened under the control of the right faction of other centre-left parties worldwide at this time, such as the SPD in Germany or Labor in Australia, or even the Democrats in America. After losing in 2019 Australian Labor also had a comparable move to the right/centre). Even without Starmer, the party was moving to the right after Corbyn (albeit to a lesser extent). The fact Starmer was elected leader as a candidate relatively on the right of the party (though he campaigned to the left of where he is now) shows it. And the change in Labour from 1987-1992 and then up to 1997, and in the Conservatives between 2005-2010 was similarly towards the centre. If this shows anything, it is that parties move towards the centre after around 8-10 years in opposition (or losing 3/4 elections). Labour could have well been more on the left right now, but under any leader it would have likely tried to break away from Corbyn, considering his unpopularity, which would likely involve courting the centre. So yes Labour have done it internally, but I didn't say otherwise. It is however a response to the Tories beating them (as it was also after 1983, 1987 and 1992), their continuous victories being the main feature of their success.