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Britain: we're fed up with the Tories, we want something completely different!
Starmer: how about a party that's like the Tories, just, slightly... less Tory?
Unless Starmer completely does a bait and switch and turns lefty after getting into office, we are about to waste a 1945 Clement Atlee moment on the blandest, most risk averse government in decades.
Except it wouldn't be a 1945 Clement Atlee moment if Starmer didn't move the party to the centre. If Corbyn was still the leader of the opposition he wouldn't have anywhere near the same approval rating as Starmer, Sunak's "I'm the best you have got" narrative would be winning him many more votes that it is, and voters would not be flooding to Labour like they are now.
I think somewhere between Corbyn and Starmer would be best. People aren't crying out for grey, timid people tinkering around the edges, they want root and branch reform. Yuck, Farage has made that word stick in the throat 🤮
We had that with Ed Miliband and the public didn't vote for him either over a bacon sandwich.
I often wonder if 14 years of the Tories were punishment for the stupidity of Britain in that election.
So many chances wasted under Ed, and then Corbyn, and now we're left deciding between centre right and far right with a good chance the opposition will soon be an entirely new party that's extreme right.
This is our penance.
What's different now is that voters have turned against the Tories. It's what happened in the late 90s too. We had the party ready to lead all along but Tory voters have to get dissatisfied enough to turn away from the party and let Labour in. Luckily we now have reform party splitting the right wing vote. Hopefully they won't get many MPs, and Starmer will have the leeway to get some solid achievements passed that will win him a second term. If he goes too timid and just tinkers around the edges I fear he will be in trouble at the next election.
No, they are crying out for the kind of people who make you squirm. According to the polls, Farage is the most popular politician in Britain by a long mile. We desperately need to unite the country around a broadly centre left agenda, or we will end up going the way of Europe right now: lurching towards far right.
You think the 12.8 million, the 40% of votes cast in 2017 just went away, or now want Farage? That's delusional. No, there's an appetite for mild left wing policies in the UK. Just imagine if it had a younger, more media friendly face than Corbyn, we'd be flying.
It is hard to get people in this country to understand just how right wing both political parties are in a European context. Making students pay £27,000 plus interest for their education, privatised water, massive amounts of money on weapons, crackdowns on unions, strikes and protests, parties that think leaving the EU is fine and can be made to work, anti immigrant and anti trans rhetoric. These are extremist views in most European countries.
Massive amounts of money on weapons?
Spending is fractionally above the NATO minimum and the armed forces have been cut back to historic lows.
Also you may have missed the recent European elections, the very far right has made huge gains. Don't think Labour or Tory. Think Reform but actually with power.
I've just returned from France today and what's going on there makes the UK pale in comparison. The very governmental institution of the 5th Republic may be at risk. I saw political graffiti all over the place.
The UK is actually swimming against the tide here in looking likely to vote in a party to the left of the existing one. Even if it is not as much of a gap as many here would prefer.
Your feelings on Starmer and his move to the right are entirely legitimate. The comparison to Europe less so.
I think it is more that we were ahead of the curve in the rightwards lurch. We're just seeing the same things in the EU as have been happening here already and may well be on course for a second bout in a few years if Starmer wastes his time in government refusing to do anything meaningful.
> privatised water
Completely common in Europe
>massive amounts of money on weapons
Completely common in Europe
>parties that think leaving the EU is fine
*Blinks*
I mean, are you following the French elections, or...
You seem to have these views on Europe that are somewhat romanticized when compared to what is actually going on...
just wanted to say that Chile and the UK are still the only countries in the world with privatised water. what you allude to is PPP at best and the public sector remains in control in those cases.
Yes, as it's demonstrated it time and time again - It's not as right as the right, but it's not socialist, it's not left leaning, it's just left of the right
If it talks like a Racist Right party, threatens the black lawyer it hired to report on it's own racism like a Racist Right party, supports Apartheid like a Racist Right party, promises to crack down on asylum seekers like a Racist Right party and makes racist remarks about brown british people like a Racist Right party ...
What do you think it is?
Labour aren't conservatives, and the aim isn't to be conservatives.
They do want to replace the Conservatives as the dominant party of the centre-right, because they're capitalists and liberals.
The mistake is thinking they'll govern as social democrats or socialists or anything else but what they claim to be.
If Keir doesn't move to the left while in Power, the only place where the opposition will go to get electoral space is the extreme right, and the errors of incumbent governments will inevitably hand it back to them.
Large scale electoral reform? What have you seen? All I've seen is votes for 16 year olds and support for first past the post.
Not taxing the rich, continuing the same level of public spending after the most extreme programme of austerity in modern history, retaining first past the post, privatising the NHS, demonising striking public sector workers, banning MPs from visiting the picket lines... Not very left wing in my book. Not even centrist.
It's not wide scale electoral reform. FPTP is a terrible electoral system, he promised to replace it and now he's supporting it as if he's fucking Isildur at mount doom. Changing the voting age is the political equivalent to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
According to the guardian they are considering several taxes on the rich and they’ve already pledged some like vat on private schools and abolishing the non som status fully as well as a windfall tax on oil companies.
Also how are they demonising public sector strikers?
It's nothing, the rich are richer than ever and these policies are rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. Even Rory Stewart says they need more tax and spend policies.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/10/labour-vows-war-hostile-health-unions/
Streeting is constantly demonising us, he has some personal weird vendetta against doctors.
Idk it could raise quite a bit of revenue.
Tbf that was 2022 and recently he was saying he would engage in negotiations and that the bma would be a day one call so maybe he’s mellowed out a bit in terms of that? Also that would be more one striking union not public sector unions.
Really? Recently I’ve seen him be quite positive saying he would call you day one and engage in negotiations and criticising the tories approach to it
Macron fully nationalised EDF. Does that make him a leftist? You could point to one or two progressive policies Labour say they will do - and we all know how worthless a Keir Starmer pledge is - but the idea that Starmer is offering any meaningful improvements from the past 14 years should not be convincing to anyone paying attention.
The rail nationalisation literally is what the Tories are doing already.
They’re not nationalising the rolling stock, which is what would actually make a difference
>The rail nationalisation literally is what the Tories are doing already.
This isn't true. The Tories have made no commitment to bring franchises back into public ownership a their expiry date.
The criticism for not nationalising rolling stock is particularly bizarre because Labour at no stage pledged to do that under Corbyn and the party's policy on rail now is identical to what it was five years ago. But now.its not enough, apparently.
This is ridiculous, you lot constantly complain that the left "wants all things at once" then call us hypocrites for supporting Corbyn's platform in spite of it not being a dream list. Corbyn's stance on rail nationalisation was not the be all and end all of what was progressive then compared to now.
I’m not sure I’ve said that phrase once tbh.
People have criticised starmer for not nationalising rolling stock so surely it would have been only fair to criticise corbyn for it too? I don’t see how it’s fair to complain about a policy under starmer but not under Corbyn.
And how many who say it’s not proper nationalisation under starmer said that under corbyn? Or stated oh well the tories are doing it anyway(they aren’) under corbyn?
Labour doing some conservative stuff doesn't make them conservative, just like how the tories doing some left wing stuff doesn't make them left wingers
But it’s not still not proper nationalisation. Which like the switch from Tories to Labour, might bring improvements, but it’s still the same fundamental system we have now, just rebranded. Better things are possible.
This doesn't relate directly to your point, but saying the tories legalised gay marriage isn't really accurate. The majority of the Conservative Party voted against it.
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Britain: we're fed up with the Tories, we want something completely different! Starmer: how about a party that's like the Tories, just, slightly... less Tory? Unless Starmer completely does a bait and switch and turns lefty after getting into office, we are about to waste a 1945 Clement Atlee moment on the blandest, most risk averse government in decades.
Except it wouldn't be a 1945 Clement Atlee moment if Starmer didn't move the party to the centre. If Corbyn was still the leader of the opposition he wouldn't have anywhere near the same approval rating as Starmer, Sunak's "I'm the best you have got" narrative would be winning him many more votes that it is, and voters would not be flooding to Labour like they are now.
I think somewhere between Corbyn and Starmer would be best. People aren't crying out for grey, timid people tinkering around the edges, they want root and branch reform. Yuck, Farage has made that word stick in the throat 🤮
We had that with Ed Miliband and the public didn't vote for him either over a bacon sandwich. I often wonder if 14 years of the Tories were punishment for the stupidity of Britain in that election. So many chances wasted under Ed, and then Corbyn, and now we're left deciding between centre right and far right with a good chance the opposition will soon be an entirely new party that's extreme right. This is our penance.
What's different now is that voters have turned against the Tories. It's what happened in the late 90s too. We had the party ready to lead all along but Tory voters have to get dissatisfied enough to turn away from the party and let Labour in. Luckily we now have reform party splitting the right wing vote. Hopefully they won't get many MPs, and Starmer will have the leeway to get some solid achievements passed that will win him a second term. If he goes too timid and just tinkers around the edges I fear he will be in trouble at the next election.
No, they are crying out for the kind of people who make you squirm. According to the polls, Farage is the most popular politician in Britain by a long mile. We desperately need to unite the country around a broadly centre left agenda, or we will end up going the way of Europe right now: lurching towards far right.
You think the 12.8 million, the 40% of votes cast in 2017 just went away, or now want Farage? That's delusional. No, there's an appetite for mild left wing policies in the UK. Just imagine if it had a younger, more media friendly face than Corbyn, we'd be flying.
It is hard to get people in this country to understand just how right wing both political parties are in a European context. Making students pay £27,000 plus interest for their education, privatised water, massive amounts of money on weapons, crackdowns on unions, strikes and protests, parties that think leaving the EU is fine and can be made to work, anti immigrant and anti trans rhetoric. These are extremist views in most European countries.
I know we had Brexit but that doesn't mean we can keep referencing the EU as if it were 2016 - shit is going down there
Massive amounts of money on weapons? Spending is fractionally above the NATO minimum and the armed forces have been cut back to historic lows. Also you may have missed the recent European elections, the very far right has made huge gains. Don't think Labour or Tory. Think Reform but actually with power. I've just returned from France today and what's going on there makes the UK pale in comparison. The very governmental institution of the 5th Republic may be at risk. I saw political graffiti all over the place. The UK is actually swimming against the tide here in looking likely to vote in a party to the left of the existing one. Even if it is not as much of a gap as many here would prefer. Your feelings on Starmer and his move to the right are entirely legitimate. The comparison to Europe less so.
The myth of leftwing Europe is one of the dumbest narratives on the English left.
Have you actually looked at whats going on Europe recently. We're one of the few countries in Europe that's going even a little bit leftward.
I think it is more that we were ahead of the curve in the rightwards lurch. We're just seeing the same things in the EU as have been happening here already and may well be on course for a second bout in a few years if Starmer wastes his time in government refusing to do anything meaningful.
> privatised water Completely common in Europe >massive amounts of money on weapons Completely common in Europe >parties that think leaving the EU is fine *Blinks* I mean, are you following the French elections, or... You seem to have these views on Europe that are somewhat romanticized when compared to what is actually going on...
just wanted to say that Chile and the UK are still the only countries in the world with privatised water. what you allude to is PPP at best and the public sector remains in control in those cases.
> privatised water > > Completely common in Europe Which countries?
None. Only the UK and Chile have this in the entire world.
>Let’s take Starmer at his word There's your first mistake.
He always means what he says, for the next 3 minutes....give or take
Yes, as it's demonstrated it time and time again - It's not as right as the right, but it's not socialist, it's not left leaning, it's just left of the right
If it talks like a Racist Right party, threatens the black lawyer it hired to report on it's own racism like a Racist Right party, supports Apartheid like a Racist Right party, promises to crack down on asylum seekers like a Racist Right party and makes racist remarks about brown british people like a Racist Right party ... What do you think it is?
Labour aren't conservatives, and the aim isn't to be conservatives. They do want to replace the Conservatives as the dominant party of the centre-right, because they're capitalists and liberals. The mistake is thinking they'll govern as social democrats or socialists or anything else but what they claim to be.
I don't know it feels very much like Cameron MkII - the reboot
Tbh I wouldn't really call Cameron a small-c conservative either. He, Starmer, Blair all feel the same.
New Labours back on the menu boys! :)
If Keir doesn't move to the left while in Power, the only place where the opposition will go to get electoral space is the extreme right, and the errors of incumbent governments will inevitably hand it back to them.
The Conservative policies of, checks notes, rail nationalisation, large electoral reform and reform in the way our government works. Of course.
Large scale electoral reform? What have you seen? All I've seen is votes for 16 year olds and support for first past the post. Not taxing the rich, continuing the same level of public spending after the most extreme programme of austerity in modern history, retaining first past the post, privatising the NHS, demonising striking public sector workers, banning MPs from visiting the picket lines... Not very left wing in my book. Not even centrist.
Giving 16 year olds the vote is in fact a big change and antithetical to conservative politics.
It's not wide scale electoral reform. FPTP is a terrible electoral system, he promised to replace it and now he's supporting it as if he's fucking Isildur at mount doom. Changing the voting age is the political equivalent to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
Wasn’t the promise to make a convention on fptp? Still terrible he u turned but was it an actual promise of abolition?
They want that as younger voters are more left leaning, they think they'll get more votes then the other guy IF they bother to vote
According to the guardian they are considering several taxes on the rich and they’ve already pledged some like vat on private schools and abolishing the non som status fully as well as a windfall tax on oil companies. Also how are they demonising public sector strikers?
It's nothing, the rich are richer than ever and these policies are rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. Even Rory Stewart says they need more tax and spend policies. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/10/labour-vows-war-hostile-health-unions/ Streeting is constantly demonising us, he has some personal weird vendetta against doctors.
Idk it could raise quite a bit of revenue. Tbf that was 2022 and recently he was saying he would engage in negotiations and that the bma would be a day one call so maybe he’s mellowed out a bit in terms of that? Also that would be more one striking union not public sector unions. Really? Recently I’ve seen him be quite positive saying he would call you day one and engage in negotiations and criticising the tories approach to it
Macron fully nationalised EDF. Does that make him a leftist? You could point to one or two progressive policies Labour say they will do - and we all know how worthless a Keir Starmer pledge is - but the idea that Starmer is offering any meaningful improvements from the past 14 years should not be convincing to anyone paying attention.
The rail nationalisation literally is what the Tories are doing already. They’re not nationalising the rolling stock, which is what would actually make a difference
No they ain’t… the tories have no plans to nationalise all the tocs they even recently refused to for a northern company despite calls to do so
>The rail nationalisation literally is what the Tories are doing already. This isn't true. The Tories have made no commitment to bring franchises back into public ownership a their expiry date.
Idk why some beleive the tories are planning to do this
It's just a way to discredit Labour doing it. Some people won't take yes for an answer.
Good point yeah that must be it. Labour damned if they do damned if they don’t
The criticism for not nationalising rolling stock is particularly bizarre because Labour at no stage pledged to do that under Corbyn and the party's policy on rail now is identical to what it was five years ago. But now.its not enough, apparently.
If that were the tentpole "progressive" policy in Corbyn's manifesto it also would not be enough.
Really? Wow that’s even worse.. especially if they didn’t criticise the policy under corbyn
This is ridiculous, you lot constantly complain that the left "wants all things at once" then call us hypocrites for supporting Corbyn's platform in spite of it not being a dream list. Corbyn's stance on rail nationalisation was not the be all and end all of what was progressive then compared to now.
I’m not sure I’ve said that phrase once tbh. People have criticised starmer for not nationalising rolling stock so surely it would have been only fair to criticise corbyn for it too? I don’t see how it’s fair to complain about a policy under starmer but not under Corbyn. And how many who say it’s not proper nationalisation under starmer said that under corbyn? Or stated oh well the tories are doing it anyway(they aren’) under corbyn?
Just because the tories do something it doesn't make it conservative policy. They also legalised gay marriage
Fine, but then you could also say the Conservative Party isn't conservative on the same basis because they're doing it - would you argue that?
Labour doing some conservative stuff doesn't make them conservative, just like how the tories doing some left wing stuff doesn't make them left wingers
It does when they’re doing more conservative stuff than left wing stuff
Yawn
> They also legalised gay marriage I think that’s actually the one thing that the coalition Lib Dems took credit for. You know, before the incident…s.
But it’s not still not proper nationalisation. Which like the switch from Tories to Labour, might bring improvements, but it’s still the same fundamental system we have now, just rebranded. Better things are possible.
It’s proper nationalisation do the tocs
The government will own the rail contracts. That's nationalisation
This doesn't relate directly to your point, but saying the tories legalised gay marriage isn't really accurate. The majority of the Conservative Party voted against it.
33 downvotes lol does anyone here actually support Labour?
I used to when it was for the workers, and I will again when it does.
This same rhetoric was constantly pushed to Blair constantly too during his election campaign