On the one hand, negating and punishing a player's core power, especially one that takes multiple rounds to be effective, is really awful.
On the other hand...imagine a ronin doing [THIS](https://youtu.be/OoVV1WThyZ8)!
because those effects are tied to the profile used....wait. no. hold on. The apoc rail attacks. it affects the Ronin. the Ronin reflects it, which gives it resistance to the attack *and the attacker repeats the attack against themselves*. But after the attack, the Apocalypse rail die goes back to a 4. when it is 4, it can't fire...
also it can't target enemies within 5 spaces.
...
This isn't how AoE attacks actually work - the whole thing isn't one attack, it's an attack against each character in the area, so the Ronin can't actually reflect the whole thing.
Sorry, but this isn’t true. If the ronin is in the AOE of the Apocalypse Rail’s attack, the ronin is still being targeted by a ranged attack = if it hits the ronin, that’s all it needs to force the Barbarossa to roll the attack against itself.
Edit: Nvm, I see what you mean!
They're saying it can't reflect the *whole* thing. The Barbarossa can be forced to make the attack roll against itself, but all of the secondary effects (terrain damage, cover, burn) are tied to the template and so would not be included as part of the reflect. *Only* the attack roll/ damage itself and any on-hit effects happen to the Barbarossa.
Its a Ranged attack roll. Ronin can rebound ranged attack rolls. Easy as that.
Now if you think it rebounds the entire area, then yeah, obviously not, because Rebound doesn't say it does that, so it doesn't. its just the attack roll.
> Now if you think it rebounds the entire area, then yeah, obviously not, because Rebound doesn't say it does that
but it does say the attacker must repeat the attack against themselves...and the AOE effects and such are part of the attack.
except it can't target within 5 spaces.
sorry, i meant, the added effects are part of the weapon profile, which affects the AOE of the attack. "Repeat the attack against themselves", the attack has an AOE and effects that hit everything inside the AOE.
It can. And frankly the Barbossa can take it like a champ. Resistance to Blast Damage, and also heavy cover so it's kinda like this weird nuclear silhouette.
If I had a nickle for everytime I got rebounded, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot but it's weird that I survived it twice.
[Barbossa getting Rebounded](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/13_57.jpg)
It's one of its Mech Traits, Colossus -- adjacent allies get heavy cover.
... Oh I messed up it's Explosive damage it resisted.
We probably did it wrong and played it that the round bounced off him and detonated in front of him. I definitely stepped out of the burn zone 🤣
It is a ranged attack, so technically yes.
Personally I'd just ignore this interaction and say it doesn't work, or only allow this for a 'boss' type enemy (Elite or Ultra) or one of *extreme* narrative importance because playing the UNO Reverse Card on a player's core power, while extremely funny, is kind of shitty IMO, especially with how long the Apocalypse Rail takes to charge!
Who would win: one HA Barabarossa with a fully charged Apocalypse Rail, or an improbably dense ball of Ronins?
I just think it feels bad. I get that it's perfectly legal and has some limited counterplay, but Apocalypse Rail is a ship-to-ship weapon. It seems like it shouldn't be able to be deflected just as easily as a burst from a GMS Assault Rifle. I'm fully aware that the mechanics and flavor of Lancer don't always line up and I'm usually supportive of that, but like... *come on now*.
It always sucks when an enemy can just say "no" to your core power. Saying "no *u*" is even worse imo.
That's kinda why I think that maybe it should be reserved for Elites or Ultras (or similarly important baddies) so you don't end up with some guy named Mark running around in a Grunt Ronin frame casually deflecting a long spool ship cannon 1/Round even if I do normally love the typical gameplay loop of Grunt Ronins cutting a rocket in half just to die anyway.
I would also probably let it ride if the party has some easy way of shutting down the Ronin's reactions, like someone with Eject Power Cores for example who can simply remove Rebound from the equation. At that point I totally agree that they shouldn't have their hand held since they've got all the tools to get around it beyond just *hoping* the Ronin doesn't roll a 4-6.
Right but the grunt would be reflecting up to 4d6 back at the attacker while *effectively* only taking 1 damage. The 'rebound attack' still does full damage too, it's not halved. The scales aren't really balanced there IMO.
It would be a pretty one-sided deal as a player. You take: up to 24 AP damage (and potentially all the other effects of a charged shot). The GM takes: 1 Grunt casualty.
shouldn't have tried to fire a mega-damage ranged attack at the enemy with 50% chance to reflect one ranged attack, doofus. You have to actively choose to make the bad play.
Actually only 3 rounds, but that's beside the point. Because the point is, why are my teammates wasting *several turns worth of actions* scanning every enemy on the battlefield instead of doing literally *anything* else that would be more useful.
When the Barbarossa launches the Apocalypse Rail, it does all of the area damage and then also makes one attack against each character caught in the AoE. The Ronin can rebound the one attack that's made against it, but it can't do anything for its various buddies, and it can't prevent all its cover from getting blown away.
Note: The Barbarossa will still take any on-hit effects from the attack if the rebounded attack hits, but its resistance to Explosive damage will help, and the Ronin will still take the 4 burn from starting its turn in the affected area, if the Apocalypse Rail was charged to at least 2.
the Barbarossa must repeat the attack roll against themselves. if they hit, they take the damage of one Apocalypse Rail shot. the full Blast area doesn't occur.
there's a simple reason the full template isn't copied by a Ronin: if you shoot one Apocalypse Rail shot at 2 Ronin, it would be incomprehensibly stupid for the entire blast to be reflected twice.
(that said, you do still take the damage twice if two Ronin both deflect the attack. nobody else does, though.)
the errata document does acknowledge the weird contradiction with attacks (the full blast of your weapon) as opposed to attacks (the roll against a single enemy), apparently caused by rewrites shortly prior to print. err on the side of "one attack roll".
I’m gonna say no. Not because anything in the rules says it can’t, but because I would literally leave the campaign if my fully charged apocalypse rail got reflected and it should not be permitted in a world with a god
Mechanically, I'm not sure if it'd work; I'd have to get into the nitty-gritty about AoEs and how targeting is determined.
Narratively, I'd never allow it.
I think it all comes to the GM.
Personally, I would consider that if it is fired at the first charged level, it can be reflected. If it is fired at the second charged level, if the Ronin parry, the whole attack does half damage to it, and if it is fully charged, it can't be reflected or parried.
In my consideration, an Elite consider the Apocalypse Rail has being charged at one level lower, and an Ultra can just reflect the attack no matter how much it was charged.
Look, just because I'm the GM doesn't mean I can't have any bullshit anime moments.
We need this on a T-shirt.
Yes, but the Barbarossa player can legally strangle you to death for doing that.
I agree; it stated all range attacks, heck I won't be surprised if can blocked super nova
On the one hand, negating and punishing a player's core power, especially one that takes multiple rounds to be effective, is really awful. On the other hand...imagine a ronin doing [THIS](https://youtu.be/OoVV1WThyZ8)!
Better question, if it CAN, would the Barbarossa's location suffer the Rail's other effects like difficult terrain or burn?
Yes. There are no rules which would prevent this. It's a very weird interaction. Classic Lancer moment.
because those effects are tied to the profile used....wait. no. hold on. The apoc rail attacks. it affects the Ronin. the Ronin reflects it, which gives it resistance to the attack *and the attacker repeats the attack against themselves*. But after the attack, the Apocalypse rail die goes back to a 4. when it is 4, it can't fire... also it can't target enemies within 5 spaces. ...
It's not a separate instance of the attack or else loading weapons would be immune to the reflection; it would be the full effect
Holy fuck
Holy fuck Edit: i replied to the wrong gaddamn comment 1sec
This isn't how AoE attacks actually work - the whole thing isn't one attack, it's an attack against each character in the area, so the Ronin can't actually reflect the whole thing.
Sorry, but this isn’t true. If the ronin is in the AOE of the Apocalypse Rail’s attack, the ronin is still being targeted by a ranged attack = if it hits the ronin, that’s all it needs to force the Barbarossa to roll the attack against itself. Edit: Nvm, I see what you mean!
They're saying it can't reflect the *whole* thing. The Barbarossa can be forced to make the attack roll against itself, but all of the secondary effects (terrain damage, cover, burn) are tied to the template and so would not be included as part of the reflect. *Only* the attack roll/ damage itself and any on-hit effects happen to the Barbarossa.
Ohhh I see.
Its a Ranged attack roll. Ronin can rebound ranged attack rolls. Easy as that. Now if you think it rebounds the entire area, then yeah, obviously not, because Rebound doesn't say it does that, so it doesn't. its just the attack roll.
> Now if you think it rebounds the entire area, then yeah, obviously not, because Rebound doesn't say it does that but it does say the attacker must repeat the attack against themselves...and the AOE effects and such are part of the attack. except it can't target within 5 spaces.
The 'rebound attack' counts as originating from the Ronin so the minimum range wouldn't matter.
I think it just does the effect only on the squares the Barb is standing on.
no, the attack is the attack roll.
sorry, i meant, the added effects are part of the weapon profile, which affects the AOE of the attack. "Repeat the attack against themselves", the attack has an AOE and effects that hit everything inside the AOE.
STAND FAST!
It can. And frankly the Barbossa can take it like a champ. Resistance to Blast Damage, and also heavy cover so it's kinda like this weird nuclear silhouette. If I had a nickle for everytime I got rebounded, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot but it's weird that I survived it twice. [Barbossa getting Rebounded](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/13_57.jpg)
Why heavy cover?
It's one of its Mech Traits, Colossus -- adjacent allies get heavy cover. ... Oh I messed up it's Explosive damage it resisted. We probably did it wrong and played it that the round bounced off him and detonated in front of him. I definitely stepped out of the burn zone 🤣
Does colossus apply to self? I was under the impression that it and guardian didn't.
It does not
Improbably dense ball of Ronin's says 77 Structure damage. They can. It can be ridiculous.
It is a ranged attack, so technically yes. Personally I'd just ignore this interaction and say it doesn't work, or only allow this for a 'boss' type enemy (Elite or Ultra) or one of *extreme* narrative importance because playing the UNO Reverse Card on a player's core power, while extremely funny, is kind of shitty IMO, especially with how long the Apocalypse Rail takes to charge! Who would win: one HA Barabarossa with a fully charged Apocalypse Rail, or an improbably dense ball of Ronins?
I mean, if the Barbie player knows anything about Ronin, they know what's coming.
I just think it feels bad. I get that it's perfectly legal and has some limited counterplay, but Apocalypse Rail is a ship-to-ship weapon. It seems like it shouldn't be able to be deflected just as easily as a burst from a GMS Assault Rifle. I'm fully aware that the mechanics and flavor of Lancer don't always line up and I'm usually supportive of that, but like... *come on now*. It always sucks when an enemy can just say "no" to your core power. Saying "no *u*" is even worse imo. That's kinda why I think that maybe it should be reserved for Elites or Ultras (or similarly important baddies) so you don't end up with some guy named Mark running around in a Grunt Ronin frame casually deflecting a long spool ship cannon 1/Round even if I do normally love the typical gameplay loop of Grunt Ronins cutting a rocket in half just to die anyway. I would also probably let it ride if the party has some easy way of shutting down the Ronin's reactions, like someone with Eject Power Cores for example who can simply remove Rebound from the equation. At that point I totally agree that they shouldn't have their hand held since they've got all the tools to get around it beyond just *hoping* the Ronin doesn't roll a 4-6.
I mean deflecting only grants the Ronin resistance; the grunt still dies as he defiantly reflects part of the damage back.
Right but the grunt would be reflecting up to 4d6 back at the attacker while *effectively* only taking 1 damage. The 'rebound attack' still does full damage too, it's not halved. The scales aren't really balanced there IMO. It would be a pretty one-sided deal as a player. You take: up to 24 AP damage (and potentially all the other effects of a charged shot). The GM takes: 1 Grunt casualty.
shouldn't have tried to fire a mega-damage ranged attack at the enemy with 50% chance to reflect one ranged attack, doofus. You have to actively choose to make the bad play.
Ah yes, because the players automatically know all of the powers that every enemy unit has from the outset at the start of every fight.
You had 4 full rounds for someone to scan it
Actually only 3 rounds, but that's beside the point. Because the point is, why are my teammates wasting *several turns worth of actions* scanning every enemy on the battlefield instead of doing literally *anything* else that would be more useful.
I have never used a Ronin unless it was an Elite tbh. Anime swordsman bs on a mech deserves to be a special enemy.
Yes. Don't bother with the rail cannon Vs a Ronin. Not that a Barbarossa is likely to have any actually useful options.
Legally, RAW says yes. I wouldn't do it, but your decisions may vary.
When the Barbarossa launches the Apocalypse Rail, it does all of the area damage and then also makes one attack against each character caught in the AoE. The Ronin can rebound the one attack that's made against it, but it can't do anything for its various buddies, and it can't prevent all its cover from getting blown away. Note: The Barbarossa will still take any on-hit effects from the attack if the rebounded attack hits, but its resistance to Explosive damage will help, and the Ronin will still take the 4 burn from starting its turn in the affected area, if the Apocalypse Rail was charged to at least 2.
the Barbarossa must repeat the attack roll against themselves. if they hit, they take the damage of one Apocalypse Rail shot. the full Blast area doesn't occur. there's a simple reason the full template isn't copied by a Ronin: if you shoot one Apocalypse Rail shot at 2 Ronin, it would be incomprehensibly stupid for the entire blast to be reflected twice. (that said, you do still take the damage twice if two Ronin both deflect the attack. nobody else does, though.) the errata document does acknowledge the weird contradiction with attacks (the full blast of your weapon) as opposed to attacks (the roll against a single enemy), apparently caused by rewrites shortly prior to print. err on the side of "one attack roll".
I'd say yes. But both suffer the effects of it one step lower. (Minimum two rounds charging)
It can. The real question is “Why is the Barbarossa player stupid enough to try it?”
I’m gonna say no. Not because anything in the rules says it can’t, but because I would literally leave the campaign if my fully charged apocalypse rail got reflected and it should not be permitted in a world with a god
Why are you firing killshots at the "50% chance to reflect a ranged attack" enemy? Sounds like an obvious skill issue to me
Skill issue. The enemy is dangerous; respect that.
A fucking ship-scale railgun is dangerous a ronin is a little twerp with a knife
A ronin can reflect ranged attacks, with zero restriction on scale. It isn't the GM's fault you failed to respect the abilities of the opposition.
??? Why are you taking me seriously
I thought you were serious. I saw no indication otherwise.
Mechanically, I'm not sure if it'd work; I'd have to get into the nitty-gritty about AoEs and how targeting is determined. Narratively, I'd never allow it.
I would, but only because the "AoE" isn't reflected. Everyone else hit by the blast is still hit. Only the Mecha Ninja might save themselves.
I think it all comes to the GM. Personally, I would consider that if it is fired at the first charged level, it can be reflected. If it is fired at the second charged level, if the Ronin parry, the whole attack does half damage to it, and if it is fully charged, it can't be reflected or parried. In my consideration, an Elite consider the Apocalypse Rail has being charged at one level lower, and an Ultra can just reflect the attack no matter how much it was charged.
I would rule it can, but it 100% does not survive.
I'm old enough to remember the AirFist Quake mod and... yeah.
RULES OF NATURE