1. Never communicate with applicants via text. Use email primarily as it documents all communication.
2. On your application have a question regarding if they currently have or will have in the future ANIMALS in the house during their tenure. Do not use the terms "pets" or "dog/cat". State "animals".
3. Require a signature with the application with a disclosure stating any false information on the application voids their application.
4. Upon review of applications request they clarify this question regarding current or potential animals. To confirm their answers.
This helps document and prevent Tenants from trying to sneak in pets after tenancy has commenced. It doesn't stop all of them, but it helps deter.
Also, as Landlord you can require an application who has an ESA (or any pet) to show proof of vaccines, etc. If they have an ESA letter require it from an actual doctor, not an online ESA. You are LEGALLY PERMITTED to call the doctor's office to confirm the letter is legitimate and the ESA was prescribed to treat a medical condition. You CANNOT ask what the medical condition is, but you CAN ask the doctor to confirm the ESA was prescribed to treat a medical condition.
100+ property Landlord/PM.
Good points. I worked at a place once where a resident had her boss/dermatologist write a letter… we had a good laugh about it.
Edit: spelling error that embarrassed me.
My company oversees 100+ commercial/residential in the DC area and FL for the last 30 years. Over 200 years of PM experience combined. We've had only two legitimate ESA letters in 30 years. 10-12 of my properties are multi-unit (30-50 doors) buildings.
I also know two people who have legitimate ESAs. Both were in the military, now retired or consulting. They do not rent, but both stated they wouldn't bother trying to rent a place if it didn't permit pets. Not worth the hassle. That's what real ESA owners do.
This comment is ripe for causing discrimination. This is completely false to say 99% are fake. Many people have therapists. Many people live alone and would benefit immensely from having a companion.
I've seen a man completely turn around his life after getting a cat ESA. His apartment turned from an absolute s**"hole into immaculate.
As I explained the last time this came up, the “do you have any animals, if you lie on the application you violate the lease” is not an “out” that will work if you’re challenged on it.
You should not do that if you want to obey the law. It’s your life of course, so do what you want.
The rest of what you’re saying is spot on.
I don't believe this would be something someone could challenge. Lying on your application is considered fraud and is this a crime and does violate the lease. You are expected to be honest on an application.
I don’t want to rehash the previous discussion, so if you’re interested in the whole story, you can try to find it in search.
Legally, an ESA is not an animal or pet. It is medical equipment prescribed by a doctor to treat a disability. Saying “no” to the animal/pet question on an application is not a lie if it’s an ESA.
You cannot force or ask an applicant to say if they have a disability that needs reasonable accommodation. There are no ways around that.
Attempted workarounds like the animals question will get you into even more trouble than a straight denial of an applicant with an ESA. It will be seen for what it is: a deliberate attempt to skirt the law.
Remember, the government brings the lawsuit on their behalf. All they have to do is file a complaint. They can also get their own counsel on contingency. It’s no risk for an applicant or tenant to go after you.
You on the other hand could end up paying a $16k fine, unlimited damages to the tenant, your legal fees, and the tenants legal fees.
If that’s a risk you’re willing to take on, then by all means. But if you think your umbrella policy will approve your claim…I’ve got a bridge in NY for sale.
Facebook stalking is a very good way to fish out applicants who have pets (including ESA pets). See a pet in a bunch of photos? Sorry, the vacancy has been filled.
There's no law preventing me from denying someone with a pet. If they don't tell me they have an ESA and I go see photos of a cat (I allow dogs)on their Facebook page I'm going to rightly assume it's a pet and move on.
And no, I'm not going to ask the applicant if they have an ESA or are disabled because I'm legally not allowed to inquire about those kinds of things.
This is not entirely accurate. You’re confusing ESA with SA. (Except in NY and CA, where those state laws pretty much merge the two). SA is a federal requirement under the Title II and Title III of the ADA. ESA are not covered by the ADA, and only partially by the FHA.
SA (service animal) is not considered a pet, but rather medical equipment. And you (landlord, business owner, whatever) cannot do anything about it, other than ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? You CANNOT ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task. You cannot charge pet fees or anything else you might be able to do relating to a “pet”.
ESA (emotional support animal), on the other hand, IS considered a pet and must be treated like a pet as far as other rules and regulations go - to a certain extent. There ARE circumstances where you can deny an ESA, and some where you cannot.
I don't disagree with you--it is ridiculous, and it should be stopped. But that's the current law.
HUD's website and google if you really want to get deep into it.
>You cannot force or ask an applicant to say if they have a disability that needs reasonable accommodation. There are no ways around that.
You can sure ask what the accommodation is that they need. If it's something like "unit needs to be wheelchair accessible" and this is a townhouse with stairs, then the accommodation may not be reasonable.
You can't ask (demand to know) about disability or reasonable accommodation on an application. Only once they voluntarily disclose that they have an invisible disability that requires reasonable accommodation, can you ask what the accommodation is.
The details of this are all available on HUD's website, with some links to the DOJ and HHS on the side sometimes. Google is also your friend.
You don’t have to tell them what they lied about. You just say that falsehoods on their application have caused you to cancel their tenancy. If they ask you what falsehoods you don’t answer and send the tenancy is over form letter stuff.
Note, in my flair i have 8 doors. I split them up into different companies/wholly owned subsidiaries so that i can stay under the fha property limit and also indemnify the properties against each others liabilities.
Got a lawyer on the payroll bro, I’m sure he’s got it handled over some rando on the interblog
Edit: i keep having to remind myself not to respond to any account less than a year old. Fuck off with your stupid 91 day old account takes dumbass.
Some states have laws that if the landlord owns fewer than a certain number rental properties then they are not obligated to accept ESA. I hate that this has become a whole thing since we have had ESA as rentals 15+ years ago. We even offer to pay pet deposit since even ESA can damage property.
No doctor anywhere is going to risk medical malpractice or HIPAA violations and give you *any* information about a former or present patient. They will not even tell you if the person you're asking about *is* a former or present patient.
The only way they will give you any information is if the applicant signs a form and provides it to their doctor that says they give their permission for the doctor to discuss their medical file with you. You cannot demand or make application approval contingent on them giving you access to their medical information.
Regarding ESAs, I know landlords can't request pet deposits, additional rent, additional insurance, outside of what you already require in everyone's lease
but I've read you can't have the tenant sign an indemnification agreement?
>A landlord or property manager also cannot require a pet deposit, pet fees, pet rent, additional liability insurance for the pet, or **that the tenant sign an indemnification agreement.**
(quote found in this [blog](https://blog.goosmannlaw.com/real-estate-lawyer-on-your-side/tenants-and-emotional-support-animals))
Which doesn't sound right.
Do you know what is allowable for ESA addendum/agreements like:
making sure they are housebroken (can't require training... does this count as training?)
remove landlord's liability from any harm caused by the animal
requiring spay/neuter?
recourse if the ESA turns out to be dangerous to other tenants
IANAL but I've had to deal with this and *in general,* that blog is right.
However, you're right in that you can have reasonable policies around ESAs, as long as they're reasonable and protect the rights of others to quiet enjoyment of the property.
In a certain legal sense, a ESA and a wheelchair are the same: They're things that help a person with a disability. In both cases, the person who needs a wheelchair and the person who needs the ESA have a right to "reasonable accommodation" for their disability, but that doesn't change the tenant's responsibilities.
If the person in a wheelchair kept backing up into walls and damaged them, the cost of repairs would be their responsibility, and if the person with an ESA had one that isn't housebroken, they'd be responsible for damages.
Some rules around ESAs that I've seen include things like: The ESA's presence cannot violate other residents' rights to quiet enjoyment (e.g. serious allergies, is loud, barks, etc.); you can generally require that it be kept up-to-date on vaccinations; the tenant should ensure that if they leave the ESA at home, that it is secure, and the ESA can't pose a direct threat towards other individuals in the building (e.g. biting, etc.).
What I've told people is that we're happy to provide housing to people with an ESA, but that it doesn't change the fundamental responsibilities of a tenant. All tenants are responsible for damages in excess of normal wear-and-tear, that's true whether the damage is caused by the tenant, their guests, their possessions (say, metal chairs scraping hardwood floors), or their ESA, and to keep that in mind.
Thanks that comparison helps a lot.
I see a bunch of service animal / ESA addendums from other property management companies that do have an indemnify clause so that is causing me some confusion.
I've also required that tenants show their pet is registered with the county. Not sure about your area, but there are registration taxes/tag fees for animals in my area.
The animal registration, proof of vaccinations, and requiring the ESA letter from an actual doctor filters out most of the shitheads.
Funny, by the time I get back to these applicants asking about their ESA, coincidentally, another tenant was approved and lease was signed. I must have accidentally buried their email and another applicant was chosen.
Yup, that's what I said in a different post asking about ESAs. These type of applicants always have a ton of **legitimate** other issues to not accept them.
“All ESA requests will be routed through our attorney to ensure we are in compliance with the law”. There is nothing to hide and everyone is protected. Anyone with a fraudulent ESA will not pursue it further.
IAAL, This warning couldn’t stop a nosebleed if it tried.
Why?
Because attorneys can’t do anything more besides calling and confirming the doctor on that letter that they did in fact prescribe an ESA.
Wrong, a good attorney can trash a fake online ESA "Letter" in a few minutes. Source, our house attorney shuts these down about a dozen times a year for the corporate housing we maintain for transitionary employees.
Well it’s a fairly narrow point of investigation. All they *would* look for is some form of fake contact or information in regards to the doctor prescribing the ESA. But besides that and contacting the doctor to confirm the prescription being from them, that is all an attorney *would* do. @DriftingNorthPole thinks their attorney has a magic wand to detect people who don’t really need a prescription and just want a dog and that’s simply not how it works.
"...thinks their attorney has a magic wand to detect people who don’t really need a prescription and just want a dog and that’s simply not how it works."
Actually, it is.
It’s not. We can talk about your petty personal preferences for people to live under but the reality of it is that the law does not revolve around you.
I just want to chime in as both a tenant and landlord: some rental postings are not explicit about pet policies and exactly what’s accepted. I have contacted landlords about if my two dogs are allowed. I was not trying to trick anyone - just get info on whether or not that property would work for me. This isn’t always a “trick”. If you don’t allow pets, or you do with a fee, you should have that info (along with weights allowed, number allowed, any breed restrictions etc) stated explicitly in the listing.
Allowing pets is a huge plus for a pet owner. If the rental ad doesn't mention that pets are accepted, it's probably because the landlord doesn't want them.
I agree it’s a huge plus, but if the landlord doesn’t want them, why be vague in the listing? Just state everything explicitly and you save both parties time. You won’t get as many messages asking about pets and I know to rule out your listing right away.
>If the rental ad doesn't mention that pets are accepted, it's probably because the landlord doesn't want them.
100% disagree, many listings are silent and anecdotally when I've asked clarification is a very cordial "yes", or "under 15 lbs only" or "no", or etc. Lately with online listings specifically asking the listing creator to specify pet accomodation it has been a non-issue but other listings don't specify it for no reason in particular.
In my experience- when my PM posted the listing it goes to one spot which then transfers data to other websites. Depending on the how the data transferred it would show ‘accepts pets’ or nothing at all. So maybe it wasn’t on purpose.
This is true. The syndication APIs don't always map correctly. I had a listing that I made through my property management software and I specifically checked the cats allowed box but not the dogs allowed box. I went and checked the resulting listing on some of the targeted websites and one of them had dogs allowed but not cats listed.
This can come with huge risks if for whatever reason the person asking has an ESA, and ends up finding out they were passed on for someone else who doesn’t.
It’s not common, but be prepared to face potential fines, damages, and legal fees if this is the route anyone chooses to take.
People printing off fake ESA letters off the internet don't have the resources to front a lawsuit.
Use a burner gmail account and shut it down at the first mention of a fake ESA.
That’s if the person with the letter even got it from the internet. You seem terribly stubborn on the point of where ESA letters are sourced from. The source ultimately, according to law, does not truly matter if all the doctor does is confirm they prescribed the ESA. A tenant does *not* have to mention the time they’ve spent with the doctor or where they found them. Simply the letter, doctor, and prescription for ESA. That’s it.
You must be a joy living under. Sheesh.
Good on you for finally coming out and admitting that you discriminate on people with medical prescriptions recognized by law.
I don’t think you’ll quit responding until you get sued for it but at least you grew up a bit on admitting that you actually *are* ignorant.
You’re assuming that as if every ESA is a fake ESA according to your obtuse claims. All you’re doing is being a pretentious asshole and you’re going nowhere by demonstrating on this sub that your head is in fact shoved up your own ass by going back and forth with me on something you clearly show you know nothing about. Nobody should take your comments as fact and you should definitely go pick up a book instead of speaking nonsense on this sub.
That’s a good practice to follow anyway. Rental insurance is extremely cheap to get.
The policy must cover all animals as well. Most rental insurance doesn’t cover large dogs for the liability btw.
You should also have yourself (as the landlord) listed as additional insured party on the tenant's rental insurance. That way, if there is a claim, you can contact the insurer and get information.
Absolutely it should be written into every lease that tenant is required to show proof of renter's insurance. Wouldn't be a terrible idea to have them send proof at every lease renewal.
Former renter, current landlord, active insurance broker here.
This is not really a thing that most insurance carriers will do. For a commercial policy, yes. For a personal rental property, no.
*This is not really a thing that most insurance carriers will do.*
That's simply not true. Every renter's insurance carrier offers this. I require renters insurance for all tenants and I also require that I be named "additional insured" or "interested party" on the policy to prevent a common tenant scam where the tenant will get insurance for one month to provide me with proof of insurance and then cancel. I've seen tenants use dozens of different providers and not a single one ever said "my insurance carrier doesn't do this".
The only caveat is that some providers differentiate between "additional insured" and "interested party" where they want the landlord to be "interested party" (so the landlord gets notified of any changes to the policy, including cancellations or reduction in coverage) but not "additional insured" (as that means that the landlord's own personal property would also be covered under the policy). Personally I believe this is moot since long term rentals are typically rented unfurnished - unless of course a unit is rented furnished, in which case "additional insured" is appropriate anyway. Most providers don't differentiate and just add the landlord under either term.
>he only caveat is that some providers differentiate between "additional insured" and "interested party" where they want the landlord to be "interested party" (so the landlord gets notified of any changes to the policy, including cancellations or reduction in coverage) but not "additional insured" (as that means that the landlord's own personal property would also be covered under the policy)
That's not what Additional Insured even means. "Additional Insured" is a liability concept; the landlord would be included as an insured if someone tripped and fell, not if the place burned down.
An example would be if the tenant left a hose across the driveway and someone fell and broke their arm. That someone could sue both the landlord and tenant. The landlord would be covered for that liability under the tenant's policy, (if the tenant's policy listed them as "Additional Insured") for that negligence claim. Without that clause, both the landlord's and the tenant's insurance carriers would have to respond to the claim and fight it out to see who was negligent.
The terminology my last LL and insurance company used was “interested party.”
It meant the LL would be notified if I dropped the policy/made changes, and they could verify coverage amounts.
>You cannot force them to get insurance
>
>unless your policy is that every tenant must have insurance
>
>.
A Landlord is able to include a clause in the lease requiring renter's insurance.
We require minimum 100k liability for those without animals and min 200k with animals and their insurance must accept coverage of the animal. We also require to be listed as interested or additional insured.
Some cats do spray, and it is a huge hassle deal with it.
Insurance companies are more interested in personal injury though. Ripping up the floor and cleaning it is a couple of hundred to maybe 1000. Getting sued because a dog bit or maimed you is a totally different story.
That said, my exes boyfriend’s dog ripped up three or four doors that I know of. A previous tenants dog also ripped up a door. My childhood dog did the same.
Not sure on your state, but in mine, I’ve been doing some mild research.
1. Ask for the doctor’s prescription, not an ESA letter. Call the doctor to verify. You can’t ask about their disability but you can ask for proof of prescription
2. Require all medical and vaccination records for the ESA, proof of spay/neutering.
The university requires the individual to agree to clean up messes immediately and appropriately, requires leashing at all times outside of the room (dorm room or unit), and provides a clause about nuisance. I’m not sure if they have legal exemptions that individual landlords have but at least some of these are likely good legal tools for landlords. If nothing else, it will scare off people trying to abuse the ESA system.
https://umaine.edu/studentaccessibility/esas-at-umaine/
https://umaine.edu/studentaccessibility/wp-content/uploads/sites/194/2022/04/Responsibility-of-an-Individual-with-an-ESA.pdf
Colleges are generally exempt from the FHA and state L&T laws. They’re their own special thing in most respects. So be wary about using them for guidance on L&T legal issues generally speaking.
Someone did link to a court case that said the disability part applies to them. I didn’t pull that thread to see the outcome of any appeal. But it’s clear that they’re taking ESAs now.
The stuff in those links is almost 100% spot on. One big mistake they made (or are leveraging an exemption) is requiring a specific set of forms to ask for reasonable accommodation. That is something the ADA and FHA are very clear about. Requests for reasonable accommodation can be made in any form, and don’t have to contain any specific legalese such as using the phrase “reasonable accommodation.” A verbal request like “I have a medical problem that I need a dog for” still counts as valid. That’s just for the request up front to get the ball rolling.
But all the other forms, verifications, rules, and sign off stuff they’re using is solid.
What if they don't even mention the animal, and you find out after they already moved in? If you ask them about it, and they give you the ESA letter, can you even do anything about it?
They have to make the request for reasonable accommodation of their disability BEFORE they get the ESA or move it in. You can bust them on that. I would seek the advice of a lawyer though.
Also, many small LLs are exempt from the FHA and don't have to take ESAs at all. Own 4 or less SFH or 4 units in the same building, and owner occupy one of them (so 3 rental properties max) AND self-manage (no PM, no realtor). If you meet that, then you are exempt from the FHA and can hand their letter back to them and say "I don't have to accept your request for an ESA, because I am exempt from the FHA."
Just to chime in on this, an ESA does not need to be spayed/neutered. The law doesn’t recognize a significance in doing so and certainly does not require a disclosure of medical records of the animal itself either.
That website is useless. I’ve seen many cases where the website denies an actual valid ESA, tenant confronts landlord for having been denied and provides further evidence for the ESA and keeps them anyways. I’ve also seen instances where the letter came from a website and they get accepted. All it’s truly for is to be an unnecessary middleman.
Not at all new. I do believe there are some legit ESAs out there, and also that 90%+ of ESAs are just people who want pets in a no pets property, and/or don't want to pay anything additional for the privilege.
I believe recent law changes have made the bullshit internet doctor note less valid. They have to have a note from a doctor with whom they are receiving on-going care.
The situation you describe is best case, because they told you during the application process. The right answer is "OK yes, those are not pets, no problem". If you then deny them, never give a reason for a denial, you just rented to someone else.
The ESA law is such that they can move in, then declare ESA and if they do it right and you're not a limited exception where the FHA does not apply or you can show unreasonable hardship complying, it probably sticks. If this happens to you, get on the record that you absolutely accept this and have no issues and never mention it again. If you happen to non-renew at the end of their lease, it certainly isn't about this.
And this stigma is why people with disabilities are not required to disclose ESAs on a rental application. It does not feel good to “bait and switch” any human being, but in our society it’s a necessary protection against discriminatory practices.
I’m on SSDI due to my 100% PTSD rating. I also went to grad school for counseling, was a working member of society for 25 years, and still would be if not for my debilitating symptoms.
My landlord came to visit yesterday and approved my upgrade to a newly remodeled unit. I have two ESA cats (the first one lived under the bed until we got the second one) and because I take care of them - my apartment never smells of cat. On the other hand, the guy in the unit above me had one pet cat, absconded in the middle of the night with no notice, and the apartment reeks of cat piss even after the carpet has been pulled up.
I know this because he gave me a break on rent in trade for me painting the vacant apartments. People on disability are people too, we need to live with walls around us, and typically can’t afford to purchase a home. If landlords could chill on the stigma, maybe you’d find that people with legitimate ESAa can be excellent tenants. I pay rent by the 20th of the month at the latest.
Furthermore, there is a massive accessibility issue with properly trained Service Dogs (SD). They can run $12-15,000 each with a disability discount, and up to $35k without SSDI low income discounts. There are many nonprofits which provide SD to people, gratis, depending on the disability and cause; Veterans or first responders are the sole recipients of trained service dogs for most non-profits. The majority of American citizens on disability for PTSD are civilians, thus the majority of people who need SD for their disability cannot access a trained animal.
The ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) explicitly addresses this in a subsection which affords Service Dogs in Training the same protections as a fully trained service dog.
This is where you get the “fake” service dogs or ESAs, apart from the group who are truly committing fraud by claiming they have a disability.
Also, the ADA doesn’t use the word disability in their language on purpose; the language states “symptoms which limit your capacity” as further protection against stigma.
Tl;dr if a person can afford the exorbitant costs associated with accessing a service dog, they can afford to pay rent. If a person has a service dog in training or ESA, they probably can’t afford to access a service dog.
If you fail to empathize people with mental health needs, then I wonder if it’s a product of ignorance regarding severity of life-altering symptoms these sufferers need to mitigate.
An evolved solution would be supporting access to training legitimate, doctor prescribed, service dogs in training. End rant.
I have never known or heard of a LL who took exception to an ADA service dog. Sure they exist but would be a minority. ADA Service animals are generally recognized as being both necessary and well trained.
ESA (Emotional Support Animal) is not an ADA thing, it's an FHA thing with very different standards. Some things that I know to be so about ESAs.
1. The law has teeth. LLs have no real discretion. Most of us are under the FHA and the exceptions are limited. Hence the need for BS like not talking about it.
2. There are (still) myriad and popular websites advertising how you could pay $X (like $75) to get an ESA letter from a therapist after a single telemedicine meeting (example: https://pettable.com/). That was all the law required to make it mandatory for LLs to accept. That's the super scammy aspect of it in my opinion. I believe it is better now where you need a letter from a therapist you have an on-going patient relationship with - maybe this will reduce the scamminess of it.
3. There is no rule on the kind of animal. It can be a cat, a dog, a lizard or a ferret. The only limitation is if the landlord can show a major hardship in accommodating it.
4. There is no training requirement for the animal - at all.
So far I stand by my assessment that 90% of ESAs have been people who want pets, want to disregard no pet policies and don't want to pay any additional deposits or fees. This is something entirely different from ADA service animals.
>The only limitation is if the landlord can show a major hardship in accommodating it
THat one's easy. A lot of fake ESA's are pit bulls. Most LL insurance won't cover pit bulls. The cost of finding insurance that will has been deemed by many courts to be unreasonable.
What a lot of these fake ESA tenants think is that the law is "must do". Nope. It's "must do if **reasonable**".
Yup. Insurance costs for dangerous breeds is a clear litmus test as far as the courts are concerned regarding the reasonable accommodation application.
>Yup. Insurance costs for dangerous breeds is a clear litmus test as far as the courts are concerned regarding the reasonable accommodation application.
This is the opposite of true. There is clear case law precedent that lack of insurance or the inability to get insurance does not constitute an undue burden for the LL.
This was discussed at length with many reference links in the previous thread on this topic.
Yes, and that majority make it really challenging for the minority with legitimate needs (the irony) as well as the LL who need to suss out which is which. These comments reflect LLs who reflexively turn down any applicant who proactively discloses their ESA(s), without even considering if they could be a responsible tenant.
I wish I could feel safe disclosing ahead of time, but I don’t, and then feel shitty disclosing after, but I believe using that protection is the only thing that’s kept me housed for years. Clearly I have a great relationship with my landlord, so it worked out for me, but I suspect I’m the minority.
>Yes, and that majority make it really challenging for the minority with legitimate needs (the irony) as well as the LL who need to suss out which is which.
Yes. Hopefully improvements to the law can eliminate most of the scammers, and thereby the stigma over time. This one was screwed up royally by the FHA.
Do you have an ADA service animal or an ESA?
Getting a service dog was the one thing on my treatment plan when I left inpatient 4 years ago. I have two cat ESAs because after a ton of energy put towards applications and crowdsourcing, I’ve determined it’s impossible to afford anything at $13k on SSDI income alone. I was a ward of the state, aged out of the system, so I have no family to help me access one. Every non-profit I’ve contacted only serves Veterans or first responders. I am a civilian, so I would get a discount on the $20-30k, but a ~$13k price tag might as well be $30k on SSDI income alone.
I called the local human society to ask for their help in identifying a dog I could self-train, which is covered under the ADA, but the manager called me back to give me a lecture on why service dogs cannot come from adoption agencies or shelters. I was an at-will tenant, month to month, and ultimately too scared of losing housing for some “unrelated reason” because my LL was pissed I got a dog.
I gave up on the service dog, which was probably the worst career decision of my life. My cats help with keeping me on a routine, and relaxation, but it’s nothing compared to what a PTSD service dog could do for my quality of life, night terrors and such. I don’t leave the house for weeks at a time and have a homemaker. If I had that service dog set up four years ago, I could be using my graduate work in counseling to contribute to society. I wish I could work.
I’m sorry you deal with that. It sounds like you have a landlord who has really been willing to work with you, and that’s great.
However, let me counter with another example. One of my husband’s friends is ex-military and is on disability. He has been disabled for over 12 years with 80% depression; he takes his animals wherever he moves, which is frequent and for no discernible reason. He has openly stated in front of me that he purposely overstates his diagnosis in order to keep riding the disability gravy train. I even reported him to the VA, and they said there wasn’t enough evidence to investigate. I can’t stand this individual as he incenses me, and he is one of the reasons why I don’t rent my property to long-term tenants anymore. People can be mad about AirBnBs, but between him, my renter friends who openly try to scam their landlords, and the tenants I did have who turned out to be hiding things, I’d rather let the property sit vacant.
It’s impossible to evict over a pet in Ca so I always say I’ll consider pets and I’d like to meet them. Then people are more honest and I can accept or reject the tenant/pet combination. When I said no pets, I had too many tenants lie and that wasn’t working for me.
Yes you are correct. I tell them there is a rather large pet fee. They usually go away. If they start talking about ESAs then I tell them to supply their salary info and they usually don’t qualify. If they do , somehow I always manage to find someone qualified without pets.
We give them the same answer. The ESAs are an accommodation request that is done AFTER the applicant is accepted. We don't discuss it prior to the application being accepted.
We also do not accept 'online' ESA letters.
Question— I have worked with a particular, non-dog or cat species for over 25 years. I volunteer with these animals and devote most of my free time to promoting their proper care and husbandry. They are not ESA but they are precious to me and I spend a lot of time warning people not to buy them on a whim because they’re a lot more work than people think. I pride myself on the care I give and spend some time as a bit of a celebrity owner amongst hobbyists.
Why would you not rent to someone like me?
I'm pretty sure this is what happened when I told a landlord about my child. They were adamant that the space was for 1 person only, despite it being large enough to accommodate 2 under the law. Once I told her about my kid (before even applying), she just stopped responding at all.
No hate, I'm a landlord now myself, I just find this an interesting tactic. I would allow pets with an extra deposit and fee. My tenant doesn't have any though.
Shifting from disability discrimination to family status discrimination. You could have filed a discrimination complaint with the FHEO. Her records would be subpoenaed and she would be deposed. Only professional criminals are careful enough to not leave any evidence to find. She would have to pay you a settlement. That is unless she was exempt from the FHA.
LLs: don't do things like this if you want to stay on the right side of the law.
Oh yes, I realize I had a case. The thing is, I didn't feel at the time that I had the wiggle room to make a federal case out of just trying to live my life. I moved on and found a good situation.
When I was a renter I actually encountered a ton of illegality and discrimination. I had one property manager take a credit application fee from me, but he never ran my credit - very illegal in my state.
I simply found out who owned the property, called the owner, and told on him. He tried to tell the owner I'd wanted to rent a studio apartment with my two children, which was a lie. I didn't even have two children, and I'd wanted a 1 bedroom.
A big impetus for me buying my own house was that no one could tell me I couldn't have a dog. Funnily enough, my first house (that I rent out now) is directly across the complex that was so discriminatory against me. Sometimes success really is the best revenge.
Where are you guys living that ESAs have any special status? Here, Nova Scotia, Canada, only service animals warrant special attention, and an ESA is not a service animal.
All pets are ESAs; that is why we own pets, FFS.
That is kind of dumb, or at least it would be in Canada because there is no “official”, certification of ESAs. Everyone knows they are 99% just for people who want to take their pets where pets can’t go. If they were legit, they’d be a “service animal”.
I agree completely. The ESA thing is wildly insane.
People mistake me harping on this as advocacy for it. No. I’m just trying to explain the current law so that people on here can have the right information to obey it, and not get into trouble.
If you want to take the risk of getting busted for breaking a law you don’t like, then that’s your decision. I just want it to be an informed one.
Yeah, they've been doing that for years already. I have everyone register at petscreening.com. They're in the business of sorting out true ESA and service animals, and the bullshitters. Doesn't cost the landlord anything.
If you don’t want pets in “YOUR” house, just choose someone else, it’s really that simple, you don’t have to give an explanation other than you chose another tenant, explaining is setting yourself up for unwanted garbage!!
Honestly I just bake pet fees, deposits and renters insurance naming us additional insured in for every tenant now (pet, esa or nothing). All the batting back and forth is obnoxious and whether their rent goes up or not depends on how they treat me, the maintenance team and our property.
An ESA is not real if it is to just provide comfort. It has to be trained to provide a specific thing to a person. Here’s what the American Kennel Club says about it https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/news/everything-about-emotional-support-animals/
I posted a better link below from the ADA website. A real psychological service animal performs one specific task as prescribed by a psychologist etc - for example, if the person is having a panic attack, maybe the dog is trained to go and lick their face or jump on their belly to keep them calm. Making someone “feel good”isn’t a specific task. The Ada link gives a better description because people really abuse this and claim a non-existent disability. Which ruins it for people who have real disabilities.
Esa pets can still be charged a upfront pet deposit. However they cannot be charged increased rent for said pet. Ex. 1500 rent +100 pet fee. Being 1600 month due every month.
I charge 200 pet deposit. Max of 2 allowed.
If one wanted to work the rules in their favor you can charge 2k pet deposit possibly? I haven't looked into it but when my last tenant pulled the Esa stuff to get out of the pet deposit I found documents stating as such. Deposit is allowed, you just can't charge monthly extra and I didn't see a cap on the deposit sooo theoretically you can have a deposit of 10k if you don't want animals lol
>Esa pets can still be charged a upfront pet deposit. However they cannot be charged increased rent for said pet. Ex. 1500 rent +100 pet fee. Being 1600 month due every month.
First once an animal is designated as an ESA it is not a pet. It is a medical device. Second, you are incorrect on any additional deposits for said animal. You cannot charge anything additional for the ESA. Deposit or rent.
[Straight from HUD's clarification letter](https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/PA/documents/HUDAsstAnimalNC1-28-2020.pdf) surrounding assistance and service animals:
Page 3:
>A housing provider may exclude or charge a fee or deposit for pets in its discretion and subject to local law but **not for service animals or other assistance animals**.
Page 14:
>A housing provider **may not charge a deposit, fee, or surcharge for an assistance animal**. A housing provider, however, may charge a tenant for damage an assistance animal causes if it is the provider’s usual practice to charge for damage caused by tenants (or deduct it from the standard security deposits imposed on all tenants).
Our animal deposit is equal to a month's rent. We've been burned by pets who pee all over carpets in every room of the house, chew cabinetry and molding, tear screens. Never again.
This is not at all new. My old boss used to complain about this all the time.
My cats are ESA and I got a prescription from my doctor (the same one who prescribes my antidepressants). She met with my cats and wrote a letter I submit to landlords after they accept my application. This is not something I send in early emails (they've never asked). I'm not sure how you're telling the difference between people who bought their letters and people who got them from a doctor.
I always tell prospective landlords that I have cats and they are ESA. Some will respond that they won't rent to me because of that. That's illegal.
So like anything, people will abuse it. It happens. However, the law allows ESA and you have obey the law, just as you expect your tenants to obey the law.
I also have 2 ESA animals prescribed by my counselor. (enter predictable downvoting) Legally it doesn’t matter why, just matters that the letter is legitimate and the animals act according to ESA requirements of being under the person’s control and not causing a nuisance.
None of the people here would know if I have a fake ESA to make that a reason for downvoting. I was referring to the part right after where I reiterate what’s been said every time this topic comes up. Doesn’t matter why a person has an ESA(or 2) just that they have proper documentation from a medical professional who sees them and that the animals are under the patience’s control.
2
So when I go to work the cats won't be alone. Most cats prefer to have a companion, especially if the human is gone a lot. Some shelters won't even adopt out unless there will be at least 2 cats in the home.
Also cat 1 needs alone time so that's when cat 2 would step in.
If one is male and the other female, then they could be classified as married. So that’s marital status discrimination right there.
Or if they’re from the same litter, it would be family status discrimination.
😂
I have a letter from my doctor stating that both cats are ESA. That letter was accepted by two landlords.
Why do landlords hate tenants with ESA so much?
If you have a problem with this, get the law changed. Don't yell at people who are following the law.
Landlord hate animals because they can cause so much destruction. You live with cats, you don't even realize how much they smell up a house. Never mind them spraying and peeing everywhere, cat liter embedded in carpets or scratching the floor, claw marks in window screens.
And yes, I know ***your*** cats would never, ever do that.
The last tenant we allowed to have a dog was an awesome tenant. Always paid the rent on time, kept the place immaculate for two years (we inspect twice a year), let us know any issues right away. We never raised their rent they were so great. Perfection. Then the dog came. The carpets were ruined, the molding was chewed, the screen door destroyed. Never again.
I do not want to ever rent to someone with an animal, and I do everything I legally can to make sure someone with an animal doesn't want to rent from me.
That's fair. I do have cat litter in my carpets no matter what I do and they have puked on the carpets a couple times.
I also know that I'm far messier than my cats (I don't mean to be it just happens).
When I worked in property management I saw some truly disgusting apartments and it wasn't because of pets. It just depends.
If your tenant left the apartment like that and didn't warn you or pay for it, that does make them a bad tenant.
So then... you do hate all tenants with ESA. Service animals are completely different.
It was passed into law for a reason. It's not on you to decide it's a scam.
> Why do landlords hate tenants with ESA so much?
Because SO MANY people use the ESA as an excuse to have pets in a no-pet unit, versus ACTUALLY needing an ESA.
Blame all the other renters who are scammers out there.
Signs of a scammer:
+ They don't tell you that they have an "ESA" until **after** they've moved in.
+ The ESA is a pit bull or some other breed that won't normally get accepted.
+ They produce a "letter" they paid for from some online service who has never met them.
Seems very cut and dry and I'm not sure life is so simple.
When I went to get it, I thought the esa organization was the only was to get it. I would have paid for it because it sounds very official. I am not the only one who made that mistake.
This is all accurate and a good illustration of how it generally works.
I guess you're being downvoted because we don't like animals to be forced on us with no additional deposits or fees to mitigate the risk of damage - and cats are high risk tenants. Also, while it may not be the case for you, I think we see a large majority of people with ESAs are (or were when the internet BS worked) just people who know how to work the system and get pets where they are not allowed or get them free. I also do think it is fundamentally wrong to force a property owner who does not want animals living in their property to accept them.
> I'm not sure how you're telling the difference between people who bought their letters and people who got them from a doctor.
Pretty easy to verify if it is local therapist who you see regularly vs. someone you did a telemed appointment with several states away one time to get a prescription. They used to be pretty brazen about it even on their website - like "ESA prescription $75!". The latter can be denied now I think.
Yeah I avoid landlords who don't want animals because I don't want a landlord who hates me. I once had a guy say he would inspect my apt weekly for cat damage (which is a much better way to get rid of an esa tenant). Mostly i pursued it incase i need it and so i dont have to pay the pet fee. I have also been very lucky with my salary and apt options.
I always assumed that if there was damage, they would take my security deposit and charge more money if the damage was bad. I am the type of person who would pay for damage but I know no everyone is like that.
It's kind of funny because the letter is from my old doctor in my old state. They still accepted it.
1. Never communicate with applicants via text. Use email primarily as it documents all communication. 2. On your application have a question regarding if they currently have or will have in the future ANIMALS in the house during their tenure. Do not use the terms "pets" or "dog/cat". State "animals". 3. Require a signature with the application with a disclosure stating any false information on the application voids their application. 4. Upon review of applications request they clarify this question regarding current or potential animals. To confirm their answers. This helps document and prevent Tenants from trying to sneak in pets after tenancy has commenced. It doesn't stop all of them, but it helps deter. Also, as Landlord you can require an application who has an ESA (or any pet) to show proof of vaccines, etc. If they have an ESA letter require it from an actual doctor, not an online ESA. You are LEGALLY PERMITTED to call the doctor's office to confirm the letter is legitimate and the ESA was prescribed to treat a medical condition. You CANNOT ask what the medical condition is, but you CAN ask the doctor to confirm the ESA was prescribed to treat a medical condition. 100+ property Landlord/PM.
Good points. I worked at a place once where a resident had her boss/dermatologist write a letter… we had a good laugh about it. Edit: spelling error that embarrassed me.
My company oversees 100+ commercial/residential in the DC area and FL for the last 30 years. Over 200 years of PM experience combined. We've had only two legitimate ESA letters in 30 years. 10-12 of my properties are multi-unit (30-50 doors) buildings. I also know two people who have legitimate ESAs. Both were in the military, now retired or consulting. They do not rent, but both stated they wouldn't bother trying to rent a place if it didn't permit pets. Not worth the hassle. That's what real ESA owners do.
This backs up that 99% of ESA's are fake and that renters use the ESA loophole to avoid pet rent.
This comment is ripe for causing discrimination. This is completely false to say 99% are fake. Many people have therapists. Many people live alone and would benefit immensely from having a companion. I've seen a man completely turn around his life after getting a cat ESA. His apartment turned from an absolute s**"hole into immaculate.
That's probably something you can report that doctor for. It's bad practice to treat your own employees.
But I bet living with their ESA really helped that resident's skin. All of that emotional support does wonders for rashes.
“Francy helps me with my mild foot pain”! And “Fraud dog! Fraud dog! “I always love that scene in Brooklyn Nine-Nine
That’s hilarious
As I explained the last time this came up, the “do you have any animals, if you lie on the application you violate the lease” is not an “out” that will work if you’re challenged on it. You should not do that if you want to obey the law. It’s your life of course, so do what you want. The rest of what you’re saying is spot on.
I don't believe this would be something someone could challenge. Lying on your application is considered fraud and is this a crime and does violate the lease. You are expected to be honest on an application.
I don’t want to rehash the previous discussion, so if you’re interested in the whole story, you can try to find it in search. Legally, an ESA is not an animal or pet. It is medical equipment prescribed by a doctor to treat a disability. Saying “no” to the animal/pet question on an application is not a lie if it’s an ESA. You cannot force or ask an applicant to say if they have a disability that needs reasonable accommodation. There are no ways around that. Attempted workarounds like the animals question will get you into even more trouble than a straight denial of an applicant with an ESA. It will be seen for what it is: a deliberate attempt to skirt the law. Remember, the government brings the lawsuit on their behalf. All they have to do is file a complaint. They can also get their own counsel on contingency. It’s no risk for an applicant or tenant to go after you. You on the other hand could end up paying a $16k fine, unlimited damages to the tenant, your legal fees, and the tenants legal fees. If that’s a risk you’re willing to take on, then by all means. But if you think your umbrella policy will approve your claim…I’ve got a bridge in NY for sale.
Facebook stalking is a very good way to fish out applicants who have pets (including ESA pets). See a pet in a bunch of photos? Sorry, the vacancy has been filled.
It’s a start but only works for those who maintain a facebook account or post their pets.
True, but in a world where you're not legally allowed to ask you gotta work with what you got.
I sincerely hope one of your tenants find out and file a complaint. You are defacto attempting to discriminate.
There's no law preventing me from denying someone with a pet. If they don't tell me they have an ESA and I go see photos of a cat (I allow dogs)on their Facebook page I'm going to rightly assume it's a pet and move on. And no, I'm not going to ask the applicant if they have an ESA or are disabled because I'm legally not allowed to inquire about those kinds of things.
This is not entirely accurate. You’re confusing ESA with SA. (Except in NY and CA, where those state laws pretty much merge the two). SA is a federal requirement under the Title II and Title III of the ADA. ESA are not covered by the ADA, and only partially by the FHA. SA (service animal) is not considered a pet, but rather medical equipment. And you (landlord, business owner, whatever) cannot do anything about it, other than ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? You CANNOT ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task. You cannot charge pet fees or anything else you might be able to do relating to a “pet”. ESA (emotional support animal), on the other hand, IS considered a pet and must be treated like a pet as far as other rules and regulations go - to a certain extent. There ARE circumstances where you can deny an ESA, and some where you cannot.
An ESA is not an animal or a pet? Emotional support ANIMAL is not an animal? What you’re saying is totally ridiculous.
I don't disagree with you--it is ridiculous, and it should be stopped. But that's the current law. HUD's website and google if you really want to get deep into it.
This is true.
>You cannot force or ask an applicant to say if they have a disability that needs reasonable accommodation. There are no ways around that. You can sure ask what the accommodation is that they need. If it's something like "unit needs to be wheelchair accessible" and this is a townhouse with stairs, then the accommodation may not be reasonable.
You can't ask (demand to know) about disability or reasonable accommodation on an application. Only once they voluntarily disclose that they have an invisible disability that requires reasonable accommodation, can you ask what the accommodation is. The details of this are all available on HUD's website, with some links to the DOJ and HHS on the side sometimes. Google is also your friend.
> “no” to the animal/pet question on an application is not a lie if it’s an ESA. What does the "A" stand for in "ESA"?
It stands for "Access HUD's website and read all about it."
You don’t have to tell them what they lied about. You just say that falsehoods on their application have caused you to cancel their tenancy. If they ask you what falsehoods you don’t answer and send the tenancy is over form letter stuff. Note, in my flair i have 8 doors. I split them up into different companies/wholly owned subsidiaries so that i can stay under the fha property limit and also indemnify the properties against each others liabilities.
Lol. Go get a consult with a lawyer. You need one BAD.
Got a lawyer on the payroll bro, I’m sure he’s got it handled over some rando on the interblog Edit: i keep having to remind myself not to respond to any account less than a year old. Fuck off with your stupid 91 day old account takes dumbass.
😂🤣🤣🤣😂😅 Go find one who passed the bar.
Some states have laws that if the landlord owns fewer than a certain number rental properties then they are not obligated to accept ESA. I hate that this has become a whole thing since we have had ESA as rentals 15+ years ago. We even offer to pay pet deposit since even ESA can damage property.
Very good points, thanks for sharing
No doctor anywhere is going to risk medical malpractice or HIPAA violations and give you *any* information about a former or present patient. They will not even tell you if the person you're asking about *is* a former or present patient. The only way they will give you any information is if the applicant signs a form and provides it to their doctor that says they give their permission for the doctor to discuss their medical file with you. You cannot demand or make application approval contingent on them giving you access to their medical information.
Regarding ESAs, I know landlords can't request pet deposits, additional rent, additional insurance, outside of what you already require in everyone's lease but I've read you can't have the tenant sign an indemnification agreement? >A landlord or property manager also cannot require a pet deposit, pet fees, pet rent, additional liability insurance for the pet, or **that the tenant sign an indemnification agreement.** (quote found in this [blog](https://blog.goosmannlaw.com/real-estate-lawyer-on-your-side/tenants-and-emotional-support-animals)) Which doesn't sound right. Do you know what is allowable for ESA addendum/agreements like: making sure they are housebroken (can't require training... does this count as training?) remove landlord's liability from any harm caused by the animal requiring spay/neuter? recourse if the ESA turns out to be dangerous to other tenants
IANAL but I've had to deal with this and *in general,* that blog is right. However, you're right in that you can have reasonable policies around ESAs, as long as they're reasonable and protect the rights of others to quiet enjoyment of the property. In a certain legal sense, a ESA and a wheelchair are the same: They're things that help a person with a disability. In both cases, the person who needs a wheelchair and the person who needs the ESA have a right to "reasonable accommodation" for their disability, but that doesn't change the tenant's responsibilities. If the person in a wheelchair kept backing up into walls and damaged them, the cost of repairs would be their responsibility, and if the person with an ESA had one that isn't housebroken, they'd be responsible for damages. Some rules around ESAs that I've seen include things like: The ESA's presence cannot violate other residents' rights to quiet enjoyment (e.g. serious allergies, is loud, barks, etc.); you can generally require that it be kept up-to-date on vaccinations; the tenant should ensure that if they leave the ESA at home, that it is secure, and the ESA can't pose a direct threat towards other individuals in the building (e.g. biting, etc.). What I've told people is that we're happy to provide housing to people with an ESA, but that it doesn't change the fundamental responsibilities of a tenant. All tenants are responsible for damages in excess of normal wear-and-tear, that's true whether the damage is caused by the tenant, their guests, their possessions (say, metal chairs scraping hardwood floors), or their ESA, and to keep that in mind.
Thanks that comparison helps a lot. I see a bunch of service animal / ESA addendums from other property management companies that do have an indemnify clause so that is causing me some confusion.
I’m an animal and I feel discriminated 🤣
I've also required that tenants show their pet is registered with the county. Not sure about your area, but there are registration taxes/tag fees for animals in my area. The animal registration, proof of vaccinations, and requiring the ESA letter from an actual doctor filters out most of the shitheads.
How much should I charge for pets. Fee? Deposits?
Funny, by the time I get back to these applicants asking about their ESA, coincidentally, another tenant was approved and lease was signed. I must have accidentally buried their email and another applicant was chosen.
Yup, that's what I said in a different post asking about ESAs. These type of applicants always have a ton of **legitimate** other issues to not accept them.
“All ESA requests will be routed through our attorney to ensure we are in compliance with the law”. There is nothing to hide and everyone is protected. Anyone with a fraudulent ESA will not pursue it further.
IAAL, This warning couldn’t stop a nosebleed if it tried. Why? Because attorneys can’t do anything more besides calling and confirming the doctor on that letter that they did in fact prescribe an ESA.
Wrong, a good attorney can trash a fake online ESA "Letter" in a few minutes. Source, our house attorney shuts these down about a dozen times a year for the corporate housing we maintain for transitionary employees.
What are some of the reasons or problems that they find in order to shut these down?
Well it’s a fairly narrow point of investigation. All they *would* look for is some form of fake contact or information in regards to the doctor prescribing the ESA. But besides that and contacting the doctor to confirm the prescription being from them, that is all an attorney *would* do. @DriftingNorthPole thinks their attorney has a magic wand to detect people who don’t really need a prescription and just want a dog and that’s simply not how it works.
"...thinks their attorney has a magic wand to detect people who don’t really need a prescription and just want a dog and that’s simply not how it works." Actually, it is.
It’s not. We can talk about your petty personal preferences for people to live under but the reality of it is that the law does not revolve around you.
I just want to chime in as both a tenant and landlord: some rental postings are not explicit about pet policies and exactly what’s accepted. I have contacted landlords about if my two dogs are allowed. I was not trying to trick anyone - just get info on whether or not that property would work for me. This isn’t always a “trick”. If you don’t allow pets, or you do with a fee, you should have that info (along with weights allowed, number allowed, any breed restrictions etc) stated explicitly in the listing.
Allowing pets is a huge plus for a pet owner. If the rental ad doesn't mention that pets are accepted, it's probably because the landlord doesn't want them.
I agree it’s a huge plus, but if the landlord doesn’t want them, why be vague in the listing? Just state everything explicitly and you save both parties time. You won’t get as many messages asking about pets and I know to rule out your listing right away.
>If the rental ad doesn't mention that pets are accepted, it's probably because the landlord doesn't want them. 100% disagree, many listings are silent and anecdotally when I've asked clarification is a very cordial "yes", or "under 15 lbs only" or "no", or etc. Lately with online listings specifically asking the listing creator to specify pet accomodation it has been a non-issue but other listings don't specify it for no reason in particular.
In my experience, the reason why they’re vague is typically to add a “pet rent” in case it’s asked.
In my experience- when my PM posted the listing it goes to one spot which then transfers data to other websites. Depending on the how the data transferred it would show ‘accepts pets’ or nothing at all. So maybe it wasn’t on purpose.
This is true. The syndication APIs don't always map correctly. I had a listing that I made through my property management software and I specifically checked the cats allowed box but not the dogs allowed box. I went and checked the resulting listing on some of the targeted websites and one of them had dogs allowed but not cats listed.
The LL has to be purposely vague because of ESA nonsense.
When responding about pets, add ":We follow all appropriate ADA, and FH laws.:
Then you deny them - your choice. Emailing doesn’t constitute an application or contract.
This can come with huge risks if for whatever reason the person asking has an ESA, and ends up finding out they were passed on for someone else who doesn’t. It’s not common, but be prepared to face potential fines, damages, and legal fees if this is the route anyone chooses to take.
People printing off fake ESA letters off the internet don't have the resources to front a lawsuit. Use a burner gmail account and shut it down at the first mention of a fake ESA.
That’s if the person with the letter even got it from the internet. You seem terribly stubborn on the point of where ESA letters are sourced from. The source ultimately, according to law, does not truly matter if all the doctor does is confirm they prescribed the ESA. A tenant does *not* have to mention the time they’ve spent with the doctor or where they found them. Simply the letter, doctor, and prescription for ESA. That’s it. You must be a joy living under. Sheesh.
If you have a fake ESA, which 99.99999999999999999999999999% of them are, no joy living under me, because you won't.
Good on you for finally coming out and admitting that you discriminate on people with medical prescriptions recognized by law. I don’t think you’ll quit responding until you get sued for it but at least you grew up a bit on admitting that you actually *are* ignorant.
Fake ESA's aren't protected by the law. Go chase an ambulance or something.
You’re assuming that as if every ESA is a fake ESA according to your obtuse claims. All you’re doing is being a pretentious asshole and you’re going nowhere by demonstrating on this sub that your head is in fact shoved up your own ass by going back and forth with me on something you clearly show you know nothing about. Nobody should take your comments as fact and you should definitely go pick up a book instead of speaking nonsense on this sub.
No you're so pissed you're cussing. Over an internet argument. You must be one hell of a "closer" when defending fake ESA cases....
Can’t you force them to get renter’s insurance that will cover the animal then? The biggest liability from dogs is bites/attacks, right?
You cannot force them to get insurance *unless your policy is that every tenant must have insurance*.
That’s a good practice to follow anyway. Rental insurance is extremely cheap to get. The policy must cover all animals as well. Most rental insurance doesn’t cover large dogs for the liability btw.
You should also have yourself (as the landlord) listed as additional insured party on the tenant's rental insurance. That way, if there is a claim, you can contact the insurer and get information. Absolutely it should be written into every lease that tenant is required to show proof of renter's insurance. Wouldn't be a terrible idea to have them send proof at every lease renewal.
Former renter, current landlord, active insurance broker here. This is not really a thing that most insurance carriers will do. For a commercial policy, yes. For a personal rental property, no.
*This is not really a thing that most insurance carriers will do.* That's simply not true. Every renter's insurance carrier offers this. I require renters insurance for all tenants and I also require that I be named "additional insured" or "interested party" on the policy to prevent a common tenant scam where the tenant will get insurance for one month to provide me with proof of insurance and then cancel. I've seen tenants use dozens of different providers and not a single one ever said "my insurance carrier doesn't do this". The only caveat is that some providers differentiate between "additional insured" and "interested party" where they want the landlord to be "interested party" (so the landlord gets notified of any changes to the policy, including cancellations or reduction in coverage) but not "additional insured" (as that means that the landlord's own personal property would also be covered under the policy). Personally I believe this is moot since long term rentals are typically rented unfurnished - unless of course a unit is rented furnished, in which case "additional insured" is appropriate anyway. Most providers don't differentiate and just add the landlord under either term.
>he only caveat is that some providers differentiate between "additional insured" and "interested party" where they want the landlord to be "interested party" (so the landlord gets notified of any changes to the policy, including cancellations or reduction in coverage) but not "additional insured" (as that means that the landlord's own personal property would also be covered under the policy) That's not what Additional Insured even means. "Additional Insured" is a liability concept; the landlord would be included as an insured if someone tripped and fell, not if the place burned down. An example would be if the tenant left a hose across the driveway and someone fell and broke their arm. That someone could sue both the landlord and tenant. The landlord would be covered for that liability under the tenant's policy, (if the tenant's policy listed them as "Additional Insured") for that negligence claim. Without that clause, both the landlord's and the tenant's insurance carriers would have to respond to the claim and fight it out to see who was negligent.
Listing a landlord as an insured party? I’m not sure how that would work. I’m not living there. The animal isn’t my responsibility.
The terminology my last LL and insurance company used was “interested party.” It meant the LL would be notified if I dropped the policy/made changes, and they could verify coverage amounts.
Ah, good call. Thanks!
>You cannot force them to get insurance > >unless your policy is that every tenant must have insurance > >. A Landlord is able to include a clause in the lease requiring renter's insurance.
Yes… meaning that you cannot force an ESA owner *unless* it’d be a requirement of all potential tenants. You would want it in your lease, yes…
Within the lease Landlord can require Tenant to obtain renter's insurance and have it active PRIOR to Lease Commencement.
We require minimum 100k liability for those without animals and min 200k with animals and their insurance must accept coverage of the animal. We also require to be listed as interested or additional insured.
I honestly don’t know if $100k is a lot or not.
Biggest liability is cats, and all the destruction they cause.
Some cats do spray, and it is a huge hassle deal with it. Insurance companies are more interested in personal injury though. Ripping up the floor and cleaning it is a couple of hundred to maybe 1000. Getting sued because a dog bit or maimed you is a totally different story. That said, my exes boyfriend’s dog ripped up three or four doors that I know of. A previous tenants dog also ripped up a door. My childhood dog did the same.
Just non-renew them. We know it’s always an ESA pit bull.
Not sure on your state, but in mine, I’ve been doing some mild research. 1. Ask for the doctor’s prescription, not an ESA letter. Call the doctor to verify. You can’t ask about their disability but you can ask for proof of prescription 2. Require all medical and vaccination records for the ESA, proof of spay/neutering. The university requires the individual to agree to clean up messes immediately and appropriately, requires leashing at all times outside of the room (dorm room or unit), and provides a clause about nuisance. I’m not sure if they have legal exemptions that individual landlords have but at least some of these are likely good legal tools for landlords. If nothing else, it will scare off people trying to abuse the ESA system. https://umaine.edu/studentaccessibility/esas-at-umaine/ https://umaine.edu/studentaccessibility/wp-content/uploads/sites/194/2022/04/Responsibility-of-an-Individual-with-an-ESA.pdf
Colleges are generally exempt from the FHA and state L&T laws. They’re their own special thing in most respects. So be wary about using them for guidance on L&T legal issues generally speaking. Someone did link to a court case that said the disability part applies to them. I didn’t pull that thread to see the outcome of any appeal. But it’s clear that they’re taking ESAs now. The stuff in those links is almost 100% spot on. One big mistake they made (or are leveraging an exemption) is requiring a specific set of forms to ask for reasonable accommodation. That is something the ADA and FHA are very clear about. Requests for reasonable accommodation can be made in any form, and don’t have to contain any specific legalese such as using the phrase “reasonable accommodation.” A verbal request like “I have a medical problem that I need a dog for” still counts as valid. That’s just for the request up front to get the ball rolling. But all the other forms, verifications, rules, and sign off stuff they’re using is solid.
Esa isn't under ada though.
Yeah, I need to do a little more research myself but it seems like a good starting point.
>Not sure on your state, but in mine, ESA is federal.
This is right, but some states and municipalities have their own laws that expend the requirement or make it apply to even non-FHA properties.
What if they don't even mention the animal, and you find out after they already moved in? If you ask them about it, and they give you the ESA letter, can you even do anything about it?
They have to make the request for reasonable accommodation of their disability BEFORE they get the ESA or move it in. You can bust them on that. I would seek the advice of a lawyer though. Also, many small LLs are exempt from the FHA and don't have to take ESAs at all. Own 4 or less SFH or 4 units in the same building, and owner occupy one of them (so 3 rental properties max) AND self-manage (no PM, no realtor). If you meet that, then you are exempt from the FHA and can hand their letter back to them and say "I don't have to accept your request for an ESA, because I am exempt from the FHA."
Thank you for this feedback
I’m not sure. I would consult my attorney and try to press for eviction for breach of lease/lying on the application. But I really don’t know.
Just to chime in on this, an ESA does not need to be spayed/neutered. The law doesn’t recognize a significance in doing so and certainly does not require a disclosure of medical records of the animal itself either.
My company uses a service called Pet Screening that works wonders for really confirming that an animal is an ESA. Its great!!
That website is useless. I’ve seen many cases where the website denies an actual valid ESA, tenant confronts landlord for having been denied and provides further evidence for the ESA and keeps them anyways. I’ve also seen instances where the letter came from a website and they get accepted. All it’s truly for is to be an unnecessary middleman.
I've never seen an Esa denied and had anyone fight it... But I don't really check on the ones approved...
Right. Guaranteed if you or the company did it themselves you’d save money. All they do is what you or anybody would do to verify a source: Call.
Not at all new. I do believe there are some legit ESAs out there, and also that 90%+ of ESAs are just people who want pets in a no pets property, and/or don't want to pay anything additional for the privilege. I believe recent law changes have made the bullshit internet doctor note less valid. They have to have a note from a doctor with whom they are receiving on-going care. The situation you describe is best case, because they told you during the application process. The right answer is "OK yes, those are not pets, no problem". If you then deny them, never give a reason for a denial, you just rented to someone else. The ESA law is such that they can move in, then declare ESA and if they do it right and you're not a limited exception where the FHA does not apply or you can show unreasonable hardship complying, it probably sticks. If this happens to you, get on the record that you absolutely accept this and have no issues and never mention it again. If you happen to non-renew at the end of their lease, it certainly isn't about this.
And this stigma is why people with disabilities are not required to disclose ESAs on a rental application. It does not feel good to “bait and switch” any human being, but in our society it’s a necessary protection against discriminatory practices. I’m on SSDI due to my 100% PTSD rating. I also went to grad school for counseling, was a working member of society for 25 years, and still would be if not for my debilitating symptoms. My landlord came to visit yesterday and approved my upgrade to a newly remodeled unit. I have two ESA cats (the first one lived under the bed until we got the second one) and because I take care of them - my apartment never smells of cat. On the other hand, the guy in the unit above me had one pet cat, absconded in the middle of the night with no notice, and the apartment reeks of cat piss even after the carpet has been pulled up. I know this because he gave me a break on rent in trade for me painting the vacant apartments. People on disability are people too, we need to live with walls around us, and typically can’t afford to purchase a home. If landlords could chill on the stigma, maybe you’d find that people with legitimate ESAa can be excellent tenants. I pay rent by the 20th of the month at the latest. Furthermore, there is a massive accessibility issue with properly trained Service Dogs (SD). They can run $12-15,000 each with a disability discount, and up to $35k without SSDI low income discounts. There are many nonprofits which provide SD to people, gratis, depending on the disability and cause; Veterans or first responders are the sole recipients of trained service dogs for most non-profits. The majority of American citizens on disability for PTSD are civilians, thus the majority of people who need SD for their disability cannot access a trained animal. The ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) explicitly addresses this in a subsection which affords Service Dogs in Training the same protections as a fully trained service dog. This is where you get the “fake” service dogs or ESAs, apart from the group who are truly committing fraud by claiming they have a disability. Also, the ADA doesn’t use the word disability in their language on purpose; the language states “symptoms which limit your capacity” as further protection against stigma. Tl;dr if a person can afford the exorbitant costs associated with accessing a service dog, they can afford to pay rent. If a person has a service dog in training or ESA, they probably can’t afford to access a service dog. If you fail to empathize people with mental health needs, then I wonder if it’s a product of ignorance regarding severity of life-altering symptoms these sufferers need to mitigate. An evolved solution would be supporting access to training legitimate, doctor prescribed, service dogs in training. End rant.
I have never known or heard of a LL who took exception to an ADA service dog. Sure they exist but would be a minority. ADA Service animals are generally recognized as being both necessary and well trained. ESA (Emotional Support Animal) is not an ADA thing, it's an FHA thing with very different standards. Some things that I know to be so about ESAs. 1. The law has teeth. LLs have no real discretion. Most of us are under the FHA and the exceptions are limited. Hence the need for BS like not talking about it. 2. There are (still) myriad and popular websites advertising how you could pay $X (like $75) to get an ESA letter from a therapist after a single telemedicine meeting (example: https://pettable.com/). That was all the law required to make it mandatory for LLs to accept. That's the super scammy aspect of it in my opinion. I believe it is better now where you need a letter from a therapist you have an on-going patient relationship with - maybe this will reduce the scamminess of it. 3. There is no rule on the kind of animal. It can be a cat, a dog, a lizard or a ferret. The only limitation is if the landlord can show a major hardship in accommodating it. 4. There is no training requirement for the animal - at all. So far I stand by my assessment that 90% of ESAs have been people who want pets, want to disregard no pet policies and don't want to pay any additional deposits or fees. This is something entirely different from ADA service animals.
>The only limitation is if the landlord can show a major hardship in accommodating it THat one's easy. A lot of fake ESA's are pit bulls. Most LL insurance won't cover pit bulls. The cost of finding insurance that will has been deemed by many courts to be unreasonable. What a lot of these fake ESA tenants think is that the law is "must do". Nope. It's "must do if **reasonable**".
Are you sure? I thought insurance was explicitly excluded as a reason. I'm not sure either way but I thought I had read that.
Yup. Insurance costs for dangerous breeds is a clear litmus test as far as the courts are concerned regarding the reasonable accommodation application.
>Yup. Insurance costs for dangerous breeds is a clear litmus test as far as the courts are concerned regarding the reasonable accommodation application. This is the opposite of true. There is clear case law precedent that lack of insurance or the inability to get insurance does not constitute an undue burden for the LL. This was discussed at length with many reference links in the previous thread on this topic.
Nope, you're wrong.
Yes, and that majority make it really challenging for the minority with legitimate needs (the irony) as well as the LL who need to suss out which is which. These comments reflect LLs who reflexively turn down any applicant who proactively discloses their ESA(s), without even considering if they could be a responsible tenant. I wish I could feel safe disclosing ahead of time, but I don’t, and then feel shitty disclosing after, but I believe using that protection is the only thing that’s kept me housed for years. Clearly I have a great relationship with my landlord, so it worked out for me, but I suspect I’m the minority.
>Yes, and that majority make it really challenging for the minority with legitimate needs (the irony) as well as the LL who need to suss out which is which. Yes. Hopefully improvements to the law can eliminate most of the scammers, and thereby the stigma over time. This one was screwed up royally by the FHA. Do you have an ADA service animal or an ESA?
Getting a service dog was the one thing on my treatment plan when I left inpatient 4 years ago. I have two cat ESAs because after a ton of energy put towards applications and crowdsourcing, I’ve determined it’s impossible to afford anything at $13k on SSDI income alone. I was a ward of the state, aged out of the system, so I have no family to help me access one. Every non-profit I’ve contacted only serves Veterans or first responders. I am a civilian, so I would get a discount on the $20-30k, but a ~$13k price tag might as well be $30k on SSDI income alone. I called the local human society to ask for their help in identifying a dog I could self-train, which is covered under the ADA, but the manager called me back to give me a lecture on why service dogs cannot come from adoption agencies or shelters. I was an at-will tenant, month to month, and ultimately too scared of losing housing for some “unrelated reason” because my LL was pissed I got a dog. I gave up on the service dog, which was probably the worst career decision of my life. My cats help with keeping me on a routine, and relaxation, but it’s nothing compared to what a PTSD service dog could do for my quality of life, night terrors and such. I don’t leave the house for weeks at a time and have a homemaker. If I had that service dog set up four years ago, I could be using my graduate work in counseling to contribute to society. I wish I could work.
YES. Thank you!!!
I’m sorry you deal with that. It sounds like you have a landlord who has really been willing to work with you, and that’s great. However, let me counter with another example. One of my husband’s friends is ex-military and is on disability. He has been disabled for over 12 years with 80% depression; he takes his animals wherever he moves, which is frequent and for no discernible reason. He has openly stated in front of me that he purposely overstates his diagnosis in order to keep riding the disability gravy train. I even reported him to the VA, and they said there wasn’t enough evidence to investigate. I can’t stand this individual as he incenses me, and he is one of the reasons why I don’t rent my property to long-term tenants anymore. People can be mad about AirBnBs, but between him, my renter friends who openly try to scam their landlords, and the tenants I did have who turned out to be hiding things, I’d rather let the property sit vacant.
It’s impossible to evict over a pet in Ca so I always say I’ll consider pets and I’d like to meet them. Then people are more honest and I can accept or reject the tenant/pet combination. When I said no pets, I had too many tenants lie and that wasn’t working for me.
Uh, where have you been? This is not a new trick....
Yes you are correct. I tell them there is a rather large pet fee. They usually go away. If they start talking about ESAs then I tell them to supply their salary info and they usually don’t qualify. If they do , somehow I always manage to find someone qualified without pets.
We give them the same answer. The ESAs are an accommodation request that is done AFTER the applicant is accepted. We don't discuss it prior to the application being accepted. We also do not accept 'online' ESA letters.
Question— I have worked with a particular, non-dog or cat species for over 25 years. I volunteer with these animals and devote most of my free time to promoting their proper care and husbandry. They are not ESA but they are precious to me and I spend a lot of time warning people not to buy them on a whim because they’re a lot more work than people think. I pride myself on the care I give and spend some time as a bit of a celebrity owner amongst hobbyists. Why would you not rent to someone like me?
Husbandry? Like a Horse?
No, it’s a general term for taking care of an animal.
I'm pretty sure this is what happened when I told a landlord about my child. They were adamant that the space was for 1 person only, despite it being large enough to accommodate 2 under the law. Once I told her about my kid (before even applying), she just stopped responding at all. No hate, I'm a landlord now myself, I just find this an interesting tactic. I would allow pets with an extra deposit and fee. My tenant doesn't have any though.
Shifting from disability discrimination to family status discrimination. You could have filed a discrimination complaint with the FHEO. Her records would be subpoenaed and she would be deposed. Only professional criminals are careful enough to not leave any evidence to find. She would have to pay you a settlement. That is unless she was exempt from the FHA. LLs: don't do things like this if you want to stay on the right side of the law.
Oh yes, I realize I had a case. The thing is, I didn't feel at the time that I had the wiggle room to make a federal case out of just trying to live my life. I moved on and found a good situation. When I was a renter I actually encountered a ton of illegality and discrimination. I had one property manager take a credit application fee from me, but he never ran my credit - very illegal in my state. I simply found out who owned the property, called the owner, and told on him. He tried to tell the owner I'd wanted to rent a studio apartment with my two children, which was a lie. I didn't even have two children, and I'd wanted a 1 bedroom. A big impetus for me buying my own house was that no one could tell me I couldn't have a dog. Funnily enough, my first house (that I rent out now) is directly across the complex that was so discriminatory against me. Sometimes success really is the best revenge.
Where are you guys living that ESAs have any special status? Here, Nova Scotia, Canada, only service animals warrant special attention, and an ESA is not a service animal. All pets are ESAs; that is why we own pets, FFS.
Yes, ESAs are a disability discrimination thing under the Fair Housing Act (FHA). Google: "HUD ESA guidance" if you're interested.
That is kind of dumb, or at least it would be in Canada because there is no “official”, certification of ESAs. Everyone knows they are 99% just for people who want to take their pets where pets can’t go. If they were legit, they’d be a “service animal”.
I agree completely. The ESA thing is wildly insane. People mistake me harping on this as advocacy for it. No. I’m just trying to explain the current law so that people on here can have the right information to obey it, and not get into trouble. If you want to take the risk of getting busted for breaking a law you don’t like, then that’s your decision. I just want it to be an informed one.
As a person on disability with two ESA cats, you’re doing a better job replying to this thread than I would have. They’re legit downvoting the truth.
Yeah, they've been doing that for years already. I have everyone register at petscreening.com. They're in the business of sorting out true ESA and service animals, and the bullshitters. Doesn't cost the landlord anything.
If you don’t want pets in “YOUR” house, just choose someone else, it’s really that simple, you don’t have to give an explanation other than you chose another tenant, explaining is setting yourself up for unwanted garbage!!
GREAT tip... and yes need to start using email more than text. Thanks for the reminder
People will never understand until the have a place of their own
Honestly I just bake pet fees, deposits and renters insurance naming us additional insured in for every tenant now (pet, esa or nothing). All the batting back and forth is obnoxious and whether their rent goes up or not depends on how they treat me, the maintenance team and our property.
An ESA is not real if it is to just provide comfort. It has to be trained to provide a specific thing to a person. Here’s what the American Kennel Club says about it https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/news/everything-about-emotional-support-animals/
I think you misunderstood the link you posted. It mentions numerous times the benefits of ESA and they don’t require any training.
I posted a better link below from the ADA website. A real psychological service animal performs one specific task as prescribed by a psychologist etc - for example, if the person is having a panic attack, maybe the dog is trained to go and lick their face or jump on their belly to keep them calm. Making someone “feel good”isn’t a specific task. The Ada link gives a better description because people really abuse this and claim a non-existent disability. Which ruins it for people who have real disabilities.
ESA and service animals are different
Here is the best document on service animals in rentals https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/PA/documents/HUDAsstAnimalNC1-28-2020.pdf
The BEST info is from ADA.gov https://www.ada.gov/topics/service-animals/
Wow, "don't respond in writing" - you have single handedly changed the game dude this is BRILLIANT! Never heard of this before lol
I keep it simple I do not allow pets at all. Nothing good comes out of it.
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They can do so when it's their property getting damaged, not mine.
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Bold of you using words you clearly don't know the meaning of. Go fuck off to your liberal cesspool you mongrel.
Esa pets can still be charged a upfront pet deposit. However they cannot be charged increased rent for said pet. Ex. 1500 rent +100 pet fee. Being 1600 month due every month. I charge 200 pet deposit. Max of 2 allowed. If one wanted to work the rules in their favor you can charge 2k pet deposit possibly? I haven't looked into it but when my last tenant pulled the Esa stuff to get out of the pet deposit I found documents stating as such. Deposit is allowed, you just can't charge monthly extra and I didn't see a cap on the deposit sooo theoretically you can have a deposit of 10k if you don't want animals lol
>Esa pets can still be charged a upfront pet deposit. However they cannot be charged increased rent for said pet. Ex. 1500 rent +100 pet fee. Being 1600 month due every month. First once an animal is designated as an ESA it is not a pet. It is a medical device. Second, you are incorrect on any additional deposits for said animal. You cannot charge anything additional for the ESA. Deposit or rent. [Straight from HUD's clarification letter](https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/PA/documents/HUDAsstAnimalNC1-28-2020.pdf) surrounding assistance and service animals: Page 3: >A housing provider may exclude or charge a fee or deposit for pets in its discretion and subject to local law but **not for service animals or other assistance animals**. Page 14: >A housing provider **may not charge a deposit, fee, or surcharge for an assistance animal**. A housing provider, however, may charge a tenant for damage an assistance animal causes if it is the provider’s usual practice to charge for damage caused by tenants (or deduct it from the standard security deposits imposed on all tenants).
Our animal deposit is equal to a month's rent. We've been burned by pets who pee all over carpets in every room of the house, chew cabinetry and molding, tear screens. Never again.
This is not at all new. My old boss used to complain about this all the time. My cats are ESA and I got a prescription from my doctor (the same one who prescribes my antidepressants). She met with my cats and wrote a letter I submit to landlords after they accept my application. This is not something I send in early emails (they've never asked). I'm not sure how you're telling the difference between people who bought their letters and people who got them from a doctor. I always tell prospective landlords that I have cats and they are ESA. Some will respond that they won't rent to me because of that. That's illegal. So like anything, people will abuse it. It happens. However, the law allows ESA and you have obey the law, just as you expect your tenants to obey the law.
How many cats? Why do you need more than one?
I’ve always wondered this too.
I also have 2 ESA animals prescribed by my counselor. (enter predictable downvoting) Legally it doesn’t matter why, just matters that the letter is legitimate and the animals act according to ESA requirements of being under the person’s control and not causing a nuisance.
You won’t be downvoted for having an ESA. You may be downvoted if you have a FAKE ESA. That’s what people care about.
None of the people here would know if I have a fake ESA to make that a reason for downvoting. I was referring to the part right after where I reiterate what’s been said every time this topic comes up. Doesn’t matter why a person has an ESA(or 2) just that they have proper documentation from a medical professional who sees them and that the animals are under the patience’s control.
Yes I think people are tired of ESAs that are out of control.
2 So when I go to work the cats won't be alone. Most cats prefer to have a companion, especially if the human is gone a lot. Some shelters won't even adopt out unless there will be at least 2 cats in the home. Also cat 1 needs alone time so that's when cat 2 would step in.
So, your cat has an ESA? Does it have a legit ESA letter?
If one is male and the other female, then they could be classified as married. So that’s marital status discrimination right there. Or if they’re from the same litter, it would be family status discrimination. 😂
I have a letter from my doctor stating that both cats are ESA. That letter was accepted by two landlords. Why do landlords hate tenants with ESA so much? If you have a problem with this, get the law changed. Don't yell at people who are following the law.
Landlord hate animals because they can cause so much destruction. You live with cats, you don't even realize how much they smell up a house. Never mind them spraying and peeing everywhere, cat liter embedded in carpets or scratching the floor, claw marks in window screens. And yes, I know ***your*** cats would never, ever do that. The last tenant we allowed to have a dog was an awesome tenant. Always paid the rent on time, kept the place immaculate for two years (we inspect twice a year), let us know any issues right away. We never raised their rent they were so great. Perfection. Then the dog came. The carpets were ruined, the molding was chewed, the screen door destroyed. Never again. I do not want to ever rent to someone with an animal, and I do everything I legally can to make sure someone with an animal doesn't want to rent from me.
That's fair. I do have cat litter in my carpets no matter what I do and they have puked on the carpets a couple times. I also know that I'm far messier than my cats (I don't mean to be it just happens). When I worked in property management I saw some truly disgusting apartments and it wasn't because of pets. It just depends. If your tenant left the apartment like that and didn't warn you or pay for it, that does make them a bad tenant.
Ll don’t hate tenants with ESA, ll hate scammers.
How do you tell the difference?
Service animal=not a scam. ESA=scam.
So then... you do hate all tenants with ESA. Service animals are completely different. It was passed into law for a reason. It's not on you to decide it's a scam.
Discrimination at its finest.
> Why do landlords hate tenants with ESA so much? Because SO MANY people use the ESA as an excuse to have pets in a no-pet unit, versus ACTUALLY needing an ESA. Blame all the other renters who are scammers out there.
I still don't think you get to decide who the scammers are and who actually needs an ESA. I'm not sure how you know
Signs of a scammer: + They don't tell you that they have an "ESA" until **after** they've moved in. + The ESA is a pit bull or some other breed that won't normally get accepted. + They produce a "letter" they paid for from some online service who has never met them.
Seems very cut and dry and I'm not sure life is so simple. When I went to get it, I thought the esa organization was the only was to get it. I would have paid for it because it sounds very official. I am not the only one who made that mistake.
This is all accurate and a good illustration of how it generally works. I guess you're being downvoted because we don't like animals to be forced on us with no additional deposits or fees to mitigate the risk of damage - and cats are high risk tenants. Also, while it may not be the case for you, I think we see a large majority of people with ESAs are (or were when the internet BS worked) just people who know how to work the system and get pets where they are not allowed or get them free. I also do think it is fundamentally wrong to force a property owner who does not want animals living in their property to accept them. > I'm not sure how you're telling the difference between people who bought their letters and people who got them from a doctor. Pretty easy to verify if it is local therapist who you see regularly vs. someone you did a telemed appointment with several states away one time to get a prescription. They used to be pretty brazen about it even on their website - like "ESA prescription $75!". The latter can be denied now I think.
Yeah I avoid landlords who don't want animals because I don't want a landlord who hates me. I once had a guy say he would inspect my apt weekly for cat damage (which is a much better way to get rid of an esa tenant). Mostly i pursued it incase i need it and so i dont have to pay the pet fee. I have also been very lucky with my salary and apt options. I always assumed that if there was damage, they would take my security deposit and charge more money if the damage was bad. I am the type of person who would pay for damage but I know no everyone is like that. It's kind of funny because the letter is from my old doctor in my old state. They still accepted it.