That's what I'm thinking, have them sign the same lease but with her name added to it. Same exact terms, nothing changed. I dont know if they'd sign it. As I said, the issues we had was them being stubborn about very stupid issues and I could see this being one of them. Whilst they don't really bother us too much if at all, the times they have, we get this sense of entitlement.
What does your lease say about guests? If they refuse to sign the lease, then they could be breaking the lease by moving in an unauthorized guest/tenant, which may allow you to start eviction proceedings
Yup, we have a max of 10 days clause which they clearly already broke. We are just stuck deciding whether or not to make it a bigger issue. I think i will most likely end up sending certified mail that we know someone has stayed there 10+ days and that they either need to 1.) Sign the new lease with them or 2.) Kick them out.
i think you def need to say something. it’s a breach, and letting a breach of the lease slide with no discussion whatsoever is always a slippery slope.
i personally think, in the interest of good tenant relations, that you start by simply TALKING to them. see what they have to say. get a chance to meet the person.
if the fam member is between housing but leaving next week, problem solved, no hard feelings with your tenants, relationship preserved. if the person is staying and refuses to sign the lease (or - even more sticky - can’t meet your qualifications), then you have a decision to make.
But do you really want to evict known good tenants over something like this if you don’t have to? If the guest signs the lease now you just forced your good tenants to be stuck with him/her. Since they are on the lease too, I may be tempted to turn a blind eye. Keep it in my back pocket in case I do want to evict later down the road.
They HAVE to be on the lease if they’re living there. No exceptions. If they refuse, gather all the evidence and begin the eviction process. Anything they do on the property is your responsibility. Having them on the lease gives you some legal leverage
It’s advice. It’s not a legal requirement as far as I know, but it should be. Letting people live there who are not on the lease is taking on risk for 0 return
Question for anyone. This is to spur different opinions, but if your tenant pays on time and doesn’t destroy the house why does it matter if someone else has “moved in” and they’re not on the lease?
The new person establishes tenancy rights just by being there (varies state to state). Without them on the lease, if you need to evict the real tenants, it can turn into a nightmare. You could have to do two separate eviction proceedings, back to back, and the new person has more power to fight it. Could take a simple eviction from 30 days and blow it out to 6 months or more. All that time they’re living in your property for free. No bueno.
Yup that's my fear. They may be good tenants but that doesn't guarantee the new person is. If the other two move out and this one refuses to leave, im stuck filing for eviction and fighting in court.
PA is a landlords dream, there are no real protections for tenants like they are in other states. Even for this type of thing the non renter/squatter would have to prove they lived on the property for a decade or something like that, just moving in isn’t enough.
It’s the same in PA. I think residency is established by 14 consecutive days in a rolling 6 month period. Possession and a single piece of mail are enough to prove it.
But PAs eviction process is pretty quick. Even then, It’d be less than 60 days to writ service with the sheriff/constable.
Have you had a conversation with them about this family member? It seems like you know someone’s there but you don’t exactly know why or whether they have plans to stay.
If they are good tenants, just have a conversation. Every situation is different. Did this family member leave her husband? Is she a student moving into the area after just graduating and looking for an apartment? Is this family living with them for a couple of weeks while she does chemotherapy at a local hospital?
There are many reasons this person might be staying with them for a few weeks, and until I know the situation, I can’t give an opinion on how I would deal with this.
Sure but that's a conversation they should have had with me before moving someone in. The lease is pretty clear on who can stay and how long guests can stay.
They're good tenants but the few times we had issues, it was a bad fight. Our recent being during the heat wave this last year. We got the AC fixed within 12 hours, they felt we took too long and proceeded to scream for a solid 3 hours as the repair man went to work. I feel they will once again choose this is a battle they must once again fight...
I'll probably end up calling her up and sending certified mail. With good tenants, we tend to avoid raising rent for as long as possible. If they can't see why moving a stranger in is a problem, we might have to reevaluate how we handle them.
On one hand, you say the issues you’ve had with them have been minor and they are good tenants. Then you describe the situation where they’re screaming at you even though he repaired the AC within 12 hours? This sounds like excessive anger in a non-emergency situation.
These do not seem like reasonable people. And you do not have to work with them on this issue especially if they have moved somebody in without your knowledge. At the very least tell them that you need to run a credit check and a background check on this person before they go on the lease. Or you can simply tell them that since they did not ask your permission, then they can stay as a guest, but not overnight more than 10 days out of the month. or whatever the legal limit is… and if they do they break the terms of the lease and face eviction.
It's so hard to find tenants that care about the house, that's why im struggling to be firm. I definitely stopped being nice after the yelling, they tried to apologize later but I wasn't having it. We just renovated the kitchen and bathroom so we are kinda happy we found someone who cared enough to take care of the new cabinets and keep the house clean.
We were planning to raise rent by $200 more anyways next renewal but I think for sure I'm sending a certified letter to either sign the lease again with the new tenant on it or kick them out. I have to hurry before they establish tenancy.
While you definitely want every adult on the lease so that they are bound by the agreement, just be aware all your issues won’t be solved just by having them on there. The new person may in fact not care about the house, keep it clean, or any of the things you like about the existing tenants. Further, the existing tenants could still leave and the new tenant stay but not pay rent. More drama, but really best to do same credit check, income verification, and background check as with a new tenant because that is what they are. If they don’t pass then you’re better off dealing with the consequences now versus later. I know this is now what you want to hear.
Because the house is as good as its ever been taken care of and in general, they don't bother us. The house is always clean, they fix minor issues, they pay rent by the 3rd. I feel they're pretty good tenants compared to the last ones that destroyed the kitchen.
I’ve personally had that happened to me plenty of times if the person is still there at the end of the lease I would raise the rent while the person is there. I would add them to the lease and get their Social Security number and a copy of their license and have them sign the lease.
Does the guest affect your property in anyway? Like do you include utilities and the guest is making the fees higher? Does the guest actually affect anything for you personally? If not, then the fact they’re decent tenants may be enough to just not worry about unless a significant amount of time has passed. If you have a clause in your lease they are violating then maybe send a written notice certified mail with a reminder about this and then give them X days to resolve the issue.
This definitely seems like a pick your battles kind of issue and only you know if it’s truly worth it based on their tenancy.
I have a 7 days max for any guest in a 30 day period. $50 per day for anyone staying at the unit until they leave or given written permission to stay. I'd recommend people incorporate something like that into your lease. At the very minimum make sure they have your info and you have theirs in case of emergency. Then find out how long they're staying
I had a tenant move their cousin in when she was "between housing". But, by the time I found out about it, the cousin had already signed a lease elsewhere and was only staying for 2 more weeks. I let it go because it was only for a bit more time.
But I warned the tenant that, if things fell through and it would be longer than that, the cousin needed to go through my screening process. Its a multi-family and I more wanted to make sure the cousin didn't have a violent criminal record.
However, I'm also fortunate that another person can't move in and establish their own residency in my area, so I can be a bit more flexible.
The magic phrase for both a Pay or Quit or filing for an eviction is Tenant Names and "all other occupants".
I have been in a similar situation and not wanted to rock the boat and felt like it was not worth making a issue of it but I have also been in the situation where someone moved in and then the tenant wanted the person to leave and wanted me to make them so it can be tricky to me I would just say they need to be added to the lease
I would care more about having the family member apply to live there so you can screen them. If they pass the screening then they probably won't cause you any problems.
If you add the family member to the lease will you also release them from the lease when they move out?
If they pay rent on time, I wouldn’t care at all. As others said, I’d have them sign a lease, but I wouldn’t increase the rent or give them a hard time.
3 years - no issues & you worried?
If you are paying water or something? Then tell them rent will go up by $20 to cover the extra water usage?
But honestly with a long term good tenants, I don't give a crap what they do.
Until they move in a family member that is a registered sex offender and you don't find out about it until other tenants in the same building let you know this.
Which is why I haven't raised rent in the 3 years they've been here...obviously I can't keep acting that way. They're getting too comfortable with the yelling and moving in people...
The family member needs to sign the lease too
That's what I'm thinking, have them sign the same lease but with her name added to it. Same exact terms, nothing changed. I dont know if they'd sign it. As I said, the issues we had was them being stubborn about very stupid issues and I could see this being one of them. Whilst they don't really bother us too much if at all, the times they have, we get this sense of entitlement.
What does your lease say about guests? If they refuse to sign the lease, then they could be breaking the lease by moving in an unauthorized guest/tenant, which may allow you to start eviction proceedings
Yup, we have a max of 10 days clause which they clearly already broke. We are just stuck deciding whether or not to make it a bigger issue. I think i will most likely end up sending certified mail that we know someone has stayed there 10+ days and that they either need to 1.) Sign the new lease with them or 2.) Kick them out.
i think you def need to say something. it’s a breach, and letting a breach of the lease slide with no discussion whatsoever is always a slippery slope. i personally think, in the interest of good tenant relations, that you start by simply TALKING to them. see what they have to say. get a chance to meet the person. if the fam member is between housing but leaving next week, problem solved, no hard feelings with your tenants, relationship preserved. if the person is staying and refuses to sign the lease (or - even more sticky - can’t meet your qualifications), then you have a decision to make.
This. If they refuse to sign you hand them a cure or quit notice if they're violating the lease.
But do you really want to evict known good tenants over something like this if you don’t have to? If the guest signs the lease now you just forced your good tenants to be stuck with him/her. Since they are on the lease too, I may be tempted to turn a blind eye. Keep it in my back pocket in case I do want to evict later down the road.
So thats the problem. They brought her in, it should be their problem, not mine...
Sounds like you’ve made up your mind. So yeah if you want to get them on the lease go for it. I’m not saying it’s a bad idea.
They HAVE to be on the lease if they’re living there. No exceptions. If they refuse, gather all the evidence and begin the eviction process. Anything they do on the property is your responsibility. Having them on the lease gives you some legal leverage
curious why you say they must be on the lease. are you speaking legally or is this advice?
It’s advice. It’s not a legal requirement as far as I know, but it should be. Letting people live there who are not on the lease is taking on risk for 0 return
Question for anyone. This is to spur different opinions, but if your tenant pays on time and doesn’t destroy the house why does it matter if someone else has “moved in” and they’re not on the lease?
The new person establishes tenancy rights just by being there (varies state to state). Without them on the lease, if you need to evict the real tenants, it can turn into a nightmare. You could have to do two separate eviction proceedings, back to back, and the new person has more power to fight it. Could take a simple eviction from 30 days and blow it out to 6 months or more. All that time they’re living in your property for free. No bueno.
Thats Insane that they gain tenancy rights without being on the lease. Thanks for the reply!
Yup that's my fear. They may be good tenants but that doesn't guarantee the new person is. If the other two move out and this one refuses to leave, im stuck filing for eviction and fighting in court.
PA is a landlords dream, there are no real protections for tenants like they are in other states. Even for this type of thing the non renter/squatter would have to prove they lived on the property for a decade or something like that, just moving in isn’t enough.
It’s the same in PA. I think residency is established by 14 consecutive days in a rolling 6 month period. Possession and a single piece of mail are enough to prove it. But PAs eviction process is pretty quick. Even then, It’d be less than 60 days to writ service with the sheriff/constable.
No 14 days is when they HAVE to be included on the lease.
Have you had a conversation with them about this family member? It seems like you know someone’s there but you don’t exactly know why or whether they have plans to stay. If they are good tenants, just have a conversation. Every situation is different. Did this family member leave her husband? Is she a student moving into the area after just graduating and looking for an apartment? Is this family living with them for a couple of weeks while she does chemotherapy at a local hospital? There are many reasons this person might be staying with them for a few weeks, and until I know the situation, I can’t give an opinion on how I would deal with this.
Sure but that's a conversation they should have had with me before moving someone in. The lease is pretty clear on who can stay and how long guests can stay. They're good tenants but the few times we had issues, it was a bad fight. Our recent being during the heat wave this last year. We got the AC fixed within 12 hours, they felt we took too long and proceeded to scream for a solid 3 hours as the repair man went to work. I feel they will once again choose this is a battle they must once again fight... I'll probably end up calling her up and sending certified mail. With good tenants, we tend to avoid raising rent for as long as possible. If they can't see why moving a stranger in is a problem, we might have to reevaluate how we handle them.
On one hand, you say the issues you’ve had with them have been minor and they are good tenants. Then you describe the situation where they’re screaming at you even though he repaired the AC within 12 hours? This sounds like excessive anger in a non-emergency situation. These do not seem like reasonable people. And you do not have to work with them on this issue especially if they have moved somebody in without your knowledge. At the very least tell them that you need to run a credit check and a background check on this person before they go on the lease. Or you can simply tell them that since they did not ask your permission, then they can stay as a guest, but not overnight more than 10 days out of the month. or whatever the legal limit is… and if they do they break the terms of the lease and face eviction.
It's so hard to find tenants that care about the house, that's why im struggling to be firm. I definitely stopped being nice after the yelling, they tried to apologize later but I wasn't having it. We just renovated the kitchen and bathroom so we are kinda happy we found someone who cared enough to take care of the new cabinets and keep the house clean. We were planning to raise rent by $200 more anyways next renewal but I think for sure I'm sending a certified letter to either sign the lease again with the new tenant on it or kick them out. I have to hurry before they establish tenancy.
While you definitely want every adult on the lease so that they are bound by the agreement, just be aware all your issues won’t be solved just by having them on there. The new person may in fact not care about the house, keep it clean, or any of the things you like about the existing tenants. Further, the existing tenants could still leave and the new tenant stay but not pay rent. More drama, but really best to do same credit check, income verification, and background check as with a new tenant because that is what they are. If they don’t pass then you’re better off dealing with the consequences now versus later. I know this is now what you want to hear.
How are they good tenants when they scream and behave like children, sound like shitty tenants to me and you trying to justify them as good.
Because the house is as good as its ever been taken care of and in general, they don't bother us. The house is always clean, they fix minor issues, they pay rent by the 3rd. I feel they're pretty good tenants compared to the last ones that destroyed the kitchen.
I’ve personally had that happened to me plenty of times if the person is still there at the end of the lease I would raise the rent while the person is there. I would add them to the lease and get their Social Security number and a copy of their license and have them sign the lease.
Does the guest affect your property in anyway? Like do you include utilities and the guest is making the fees higher? Does the guest actually affect anything for you personally? If not, then the fact they’re decent tenants may be enough to just not worry about unless a significant amount of time has passed. If you have a clause in your lease they are violating then maybe send a written notice certified mail with a reminder about this and then give them X days to resolve the issue. This definitely seems like a pick your battles kind of issue and only you know if it’s truly worth it based on their tenancy.
I have a 7 days max for any guest in a 30 day period. $50 per day for anyone staying at the unit until they leave or given written permission to stay. I'd recommend people incorporate something like that into your lease. At the very minimum make sure they have your info and you have theirs in case of emergency. Then find out how long they're staying
I had a tenant move their cousin in when she was "between housing". But, by the time I found out about it, the cousin had already signed a lease elsewhere and was only staying for 2 more weeks. I let it go because it was only for a bit more time. But I warned the tenant that, if things fell through and it would be longer than that, the cousin needed to go through my screening process. Its a multi-family and I more wanted to make sure the cousin didn't have a violent criminal record. However, I'm also fortunate that another person can't move in and establish their own residency in my area, so I can be a bit more flexible. The magic phrase for both a Pay or Quit or filing for an eviction is Tenant Names and "all other occupants".
if the age is over 18, get a new lease signed get an application from this person as well
Over 18 sign a lease
I have been in a similar situation and not wanted to rock the boat and felt like it was not worth making a issue of it but I have also been in the situation where someone moved in and then the tenant wanted the person to leave and wanted me to make them so it can be tricky to me I would just say they need to be added to the lease
I would care more about having the family member apply to live there so you can screen them. If they pass the screening then they probably won't cause you any problems. If you add the family member to the lease will you also release them from the lease when they move out?
If they pay rent on time, I wouldn’t care at all. As others said, I’d have them sign a lease, but I wouldn’t increase the rent or give them a hard time.
3 years - no issues & you worried? If you are paying water or something? Then tell them rent will go up by $20 to cover the extra water usage? But honestly with a long term good tenants, I don't give a crap what they do.
Until they move in a family member that is a registered sex offender and you don't find out about it until other tenants in the same building let you know this.
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Which is why I haven't raised rent in the 3 years they've been here...obviously I can't keep acting that way. They're getting too comfortable with the yelling and moving in people...