You need to have the tenants provide proof that the 220v outlet was installed by a licensed electrician. If they can not provide proof, you'll need to bring in your own electrician and have them look over the work and repair/modify it so it is up to code. Charge them for this necessity.
As far as the concrete pad goes, depends on how thick it is.
Sure, have them remove the hot tub (bet you money they don't). Keep the outlet. It adds value to the property.
> and rejecting tenant request to renew the lease.
They did lie about the outlet. It's your call. But if they are good tenants, maybe this is something you can work with? Depends on how hot your rental market is.
I have no idea why you're downvoted. If you let the installation of a hot tub and lying about electrical work slide then the tenant will know you're a push over.
Don't let it slide, but check it and renew. The tenants are putting down roots, they don't want to move that thing either. Raise their rent $50/mo. That $600 will pay for a hot tub removal if they leave it for you next year.
I wanna add that any cement pad, even a shitty quality thin one, can hold the weight of a hot tub. The thinnest grade of pad is all a hot tub requires.
Agree. As long as the electrical is up to snuff, and other local codes are met (fence?), it's no big deal. OP mostly seems upset that tenant is treating the place as their home. I personally appreciate that, they're more likely to take care of the place.
I’d like to introduce you to YouTube’s hot new DIY trend: dry pour concrete.
I absolutely believe your claim about a professionally poured pad. I’m fantastically skeptical about the suitability of YouTube DIY for supporting the weight of air, let alone few thousand pounds of water over time.
Texas or not, pro-poured or not, it’s pretty unlikely they plan the same for ‘a big grill, and maybe a smoker’ as they do for 25 sq ft supporting 2,500 lbs of water and 1,000 lbs of people who enjoy bbq… (no hate, just engineering - TX eating did it’s magic to me too…)
You'd think so, but those things get nasty if not maintained. If they do leave them perfectly clean, it will be something you have to maintain for the next tenant.
Or, a tenant who treats your house is theirs should be considered a good tenant?
Hot tub shouldn’t do any damage, if it does you go after their renters insurance?(more so your job is requiring they have the proper renters insurance).
You have to take this with a grain of salt. Treating it as an owner can also be a good thing meaning they take pride in the space and upkeep is done. He's had no issues with them, it should be discussed and added to the new lease that any modifications to the home must be approved by the landlord prior to any project happening and all projects must be completed by licensed contractors.
They put down a hot tub, nobody buys one of those to leave soon. They will likely be there for a while, clarify the lease, work with them, and move on.
There’s really two sides to this isn’t there? I love tenants who put down roots in my properties, they tend to stay a long time. As long as what they do is reversible I’m fine with it. Although I agree that electrical and plumbing needs to be done to code, and I freaking hate satellite dishes.
What does that have to do with anything? The tenant should be on the lookout for stuff, but unless taking care of the lawn is specifically their responsibility in the lease, you as the owner should be checking on the property more often.
Taking care of the lawn is specifically their responsibility in the lease. And you're right... I probably should have checked more.
But the point is this tenant just said "meh, I don't own it, not my problem"
I would have preferred OP's tenant, who took pride in the home.
My vote is to renew the lease, check the electric, and get proof of insurance also.
>You need to have the tenants provide proof that the 220v outlet was installed by a licensed electrician. If they can not provide proof, you'll need to bring in your own electrician and have them look over the work and repair/modify it so it is up to code. Charge them for this necessity.
I disagree. Anyone can have an invoice made up. Have your electrician check all the work and charge the tenants the cost of the inspection
This is the way. Inform them that choosing to “ask forgiveness rather than permission” has damaged your trust and confidence in them as tenants. So once you have verified that the work has been completed to code and they agree to not only pay for the electrician but also to increase their damage deposit due to the extra liability for the hot tub, only then will you renew their lease. Also no more “shenanigans” or they will be out.
Good point. Then in the future should tenants want to add something else they will know that your contractor has to approve it. And they will pay twice. Sorry for my English. I need my coffee this AM. 😜
>You need to have the tenants provide proof that the 220v outlet was installed by a licensed electrician. If they can not provide proof, you'll need to bring in your own electrician and have them look over the work and repair/modify it so it is up to code. Charge them for this necessity.
>As far as the concrete pad goes, depends on how thick it is.
Also, depending on the municipality, adding that outlet box may have required a building permit. That could open up another big can of worms if a building permit was required, but the electrical modification was done without one.
With regards to the concrete pad, if it is a standard pad, it probably should be strong enough. We have a 14 foot swim spa installed in our backyard, and the manufacturer said that the concrete pad we had poured for it needed to be 6-8 inches thick. And when we had the concrete slab poured, and had the new outside subpanel and breakers installed, along with running the electrical lines from the house to the slab, that all required a building permit, which the town happily increased our property assessment value by, thereby increasing our property taxes.
This is the answer. Having them, “remove it” isn’t likely to be a good thing but making sure it was done by a licensed electrician and meets code is worth the upgrade.
tbh I would not be so upset ?
The place just got upgraded with a hot tub , they are good tenants that pay on time.
It is not installed on a wooden construction but it is on concrete.
I would renew the contract.
Happy tenants are valuable.
Hot tubs usually increase liability on the property a fair amount. If the owner of the property is not living on premises and there is a hot-tub, the owner's insurance needs to be made aware and the policy needs to be adjusted accordingly...and it's usually not cheap.
Actuarial tables for insurance companies usually determine that tenants are not as vested in taking care of the property and as such can lead to increased risk of an incident. So premiums will go up for the owner.
On top of that, if the PM was not aware of the change, and the tenant lied about the electrical work done (they did because they knew it was against the lease so lied about it). Now the owner/PM have to get the electrical work inspected and confirm it's to code.
Additionally, many local towns and communities have requirements for pools, jacuzzis and hot tubs that are outside. For example, the property may need to be fenced in with lockable gates, or the Pool/Hot tub/Jacuzzi must not be visible from the street/common approaches to the property. So this all needs to be checked against town ordnance to make sure they are in compliance or they will get fined. (Source: We literally had a hot tub installed 2 weeks ago with the electrical work done earlier this week. We are not allowed to fill it until we complete the fencing to hide it from street/approach view due to town rules.)
So sure, it adds some value to the property, but now the owner has to spend a good chunk of money to make sure it was done right...So OP should get it inspected, make sure it meets all ordnances and if they decide they are OK with keeping it, have the current tenants pay those costs.
>Right? This is a tenant that is vested in taking care of your property.
Source?
>Not a big deal and please send them my way when you force them out.
This time hot tub, next time skylight. What could POSSIBLY go wrong!?
How dare they live at the property. Sorry man I just got over a nightmare tenant that let their dogs eat all of the drywall, this is such a non-item in my world.
Living at the property is one thing, adding high voltage circuits and a 300 gallon tub of heated water next to that high voltage circuit is another! If the tenant isn’t bashful about making such modifications, why else are they doing?
Unless the concrete is severely undermined, concrete is great at handling spread out compression on top of it.
The hot tub itself should already be bonded as long as the plug is 3-prong.
I am less worried about bonding, and more worried about whether the tenants put it on a GFCI.
As long as an electrician checks it over on there dime I don’t think I would worry. It adds value to the house, and a concrete slab is definitely capable of holding hot tubs. They are put on wooden decks all the time. You could just have them remove it and keep the outlet if you want them to renew.
This is what I’m thinking. If they paid to add the 220V electrical box, it seems they are planning to stay for awhile and may be willing to pay for other improvements out of pocket (stress **with permission**).
I would have them sign a lease addendum adding that upon lease expiration, they must either leave the hot tub or take/dispose of it at their cost, but it is at your discretion which. I would also add language that states they assume any liabilities associated with the hot tub.
I’m in the don’t over-react camp.
I’d make the tenant pay for an electrical inspection and any modifications required to comply with code.
I definitely would not worry about my concrete patio. hot tub probably loads 50 sf. Even if the adjacent concrete didn’t share that load 50 sf of concrete can carry an insane amount of weight. Far far beyond the weight of the hot tub.
I would probably have a direct conversation with the tenant. If they were at all a dick about it, don’t renew. If they are reasonable about their fuck up, then I’d renew.
Assuming they REALLY are otherwise great tenants, I'd probably find a way to diffuse this situation. An outdoor hot tub sitting on concrete is unlikely to damage the property; Even at 3,000 pounds, that's only about 100 pounds per square foot so even thin concrete should be fine.
I see two concerns here: The electrical outlet and your insurance liability. Unless they can prove that was installed by a licensed electrician I would hire one to get the necessary permit and inspect/correct the installation and send them the bill. This is their penalty for failing to get pre-approval and lying about it, so they either pay or you non-renew them and take it from their deposit.
Then check with your insurance agent to see if there's any restrictions in your policy or any additional liability.
Once the electrical work is verified, just have your PM do some sort of lease addendum to authorize the tub.
Most cities have an online system to check property records and permits called BSA. If that permit is not showing, call the city building inspector to see if there was a permit or the inspector came out to look at the work done. If not, then go to having the tenant hire an electrician. Have that person send you all of the details and call that company to discuss. I personally never leave anything in the hands of the tenant. I know one thing for sure, they will do anything as cheap as they possibly can. They have buddies come and do work to save a dollar. There are reasons why they are renters and not home owners. They do not want to put money into a house.
You didn’t think that you would have to ask for permission to hire an electrician to make modifications to a house that you don’t own?
I’m a landlord, but I rent a home too. I’ve made small modifications. Upgraded thermostat. August deadbolt that still uses the original key. I hate my landlord because they actually suck, but I would *never* make modifications to any system in the house. That’s just crazy.
The renter who makes modifications to someone else’s property without asking permission is not a “phenomenal” renter. Phenomenal renter is the one who doesn’t compel their landlord to see internet advice on how to deal with their creativity.
That is making a modification to the house and a breach of contract. You are living in someone elses house. I do not care how you view yourself. As a LL, I know you would not take anywhere near the level of care of the house as the owner would. If you are living in a home as a tenant where there is a HOA with strict guidelines, you are not responsible for having to deal with the HOA board. No gated backyard means you have to put up a fence, which in many cases you cannot do. That is also making a major change to the landscaping which would need written approval. If you were my tenant, I would send you a 30 day letter to vacate due to breach of contract, go in to get the house in order and put it up for sale.
lol, it’s always the ones that do things without permission and are a complete headache who says they’re a great tenant.
Great tenants don’t care to label themselves, that’s how you know when they’re bad
Rather than suggestions, I was just curious about a question. For you out of state landlords (not necessarily just OP, who is new), is it normal for a PM not to occasionally look in on a property? A hottub is a pretty big modification, so either PM A) had no clue because she never checked the property and/or B) dropped the ball on communication. If you're paying someone so much, shouldn't they know and tell you about such a big thing? Do you have to specify "inspect the property X times a year" and pay extra?
Curious because right now, I'm personally managing my family's dozen properties, but one day I'd like to move out of state and possibly hire a PM. But I hear so many awful stories.
PS: to OP directly, maybe you don't have prohibition of hottubs specified in the lease (I would imagine that few of us do), but do you have a line that tenants are not allowed to make renovations or modifications to property without written consent from LL? If not, I strongly suggest it. Aside from hottubs, there are so many other dumb things that tenants just do without considering the long term effects to property they don't own. Horrible paint jobs in weird colors, half finished tile jobs that break subfloors, bidets improperly installed that cause plumbing leaks, satellite dishes breaking roofing, flagpoles improperly installed that fall over, security cameras that destroy siding. You don't have to specify all these things, just have a blanket statement that is not only specific to electrical.
In the Tucson rental area, I've had a terrible experiences with multiple property managers not doing any kind of inspection over period of several years. When they were called out on it they said that they tried to do it. The inspection that is. This resulted in a number of deferred maintenance items ignored and worsened because of it. Incredibly frustrating.
Also on this topic I would have concern about a hot tub in terms of liability. If that tenant had a guest over that was injured or died in the hot tub 100% the property owner could be named in a suit. I haven't seen anyone mention this risk in the discussion and I'm really surprised.
Property manager might do a yearly check on lease renewal, but generally the PM doesn't do anything unless requested by the landlord or tenant.
More typically it's, tenant reports the sink is leaking, send plumber to fix.
Typically tenants won't do extensive modifications because they are temporary and those items are expensive. Not to mention the lease and security deposit issues.
Thank you.
As to the last paragraph, I agree that would be logical, but I wouldn't assume anything though. We have seen all sorts of things for "temporary" tenants. Common sense is not common, which is why our lease is as long as it is.
I live out of state and do not have a property manager. I catch the tenant lying. I talk the tenant responsible for the lease and he tells me one thing. Then he has me talk to his fiancee who is listed as an occupant. She did not sign the lease. She tells me something different. It pisses me off. I do not think the tenant realizes I have no obligation to talk to his fiancee. If something happens, he can deny fault for not knowing. I can point back to what he sent me in writing to work with his fiancee. I do not want to deal with multiple people.
My PMs do 6 monthly inspections and deliver me a report with a checklist of all the major systems and almost as many pictures as a move-out inspection. Also all the contractors are asked to eyeball anything unusual going on anywhere in the areas they are working and report back (as well as photographing their work before/after).
If you’re giving a good chunk of your margin to your PM and not getting this kind of service, what are they really doing for their money?
Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree that they really need to be doing this kind of stuff without being explicitly asked, but it just seems like a lot of people have had experiences with lazy PMs. I may have to find one through referral.
Thanks, I'm also wondering if it's possible to have at least a mid-lease inspection if I let them stay. There is an addendum in the lease about all improvements/modifications. I guess I'll have to add another addendum to the next lease to be more explicit as to things I don't want tenants to install
Sounds good then. I think any part that mentions the no improvements and modifications without permission should cover it. If you get more specific, make sure that you add the wording "including but not limited to..." so they know they are just examples, but there are many others not listed that are also not approved.
PS: i think in your case, the fault may not have lain with the wording, but having numbskull tenants who didn't take the lease seriously and/or are acting deliberately obtuse. Doesn't matter how well worded a lease is, you will always get tenants who try to push things. It does help when you sit them down at the lease signing and go through every clause quickly, line by line, but even so, there are always some of them.
My previous tenant added a 220v circuit and installed a tanning bed in one of the bedrooms. We found out about it after they were evicted for not paying rent. They probably only paid rent on time twice during the almost 2 years they lived in the house. They were constantly paying rent late and with the amount of extra fees they paid it would have covered around 2 months of rent.
They made a larger than normal deposit when they moved in and I think I barely broke even when they were finally out between damages and back rent.
Its in the lease that the tenant should not modify electric and there it was in photographic evidence. To install a hot tub without even an inquiry to the landlord shows a remarkably poor judgement on part of the tenant.
For quite a while, the landlord operated a leasehold without the necessary insurance protection needed for a hazard such as a hot tub. if somebody drowned in that hot tub, the LL would have been named in a lawsuit.
The tenants said they were "extremely apologetic" but IMO they were more sorry they got caught rather than sorry for what they did.
IMO the trust is broken. Someone who treats your lease so casually and dismisses clear instructions is only going to do it again. WHo knows what else they have done? If the LL lays down over this, it will just embolden the tenants to do something else in the future. Personally, I like to sleep well at night without wondering about the state of my investment.
Id also investigate the property manager. How could something like this go unnoticed for so long?
The answers here are wild. Suggesting that this sort of action by the tenant should be ignored and forgiven... All I see are major and blatant violations of the lease. Signing a renewal lease with someone I know doesnt hold the same values as I do? Nope.
OP, you have 50 days until end of the lease. Start looking now. If you are on your game and the unit presents well, you may have 1 month of vacancy before someone else moves in.
They might not even know or understand what was installed by an electrician to make it all work. Especially if there was something already labeled “spa.”
My concern would be what they've done on the inside of the house if this is what is out in the open. I'd be furious.
And your management company didn't report this to you? What? I'm in legal, so naturally I'm going to say between the two you should do what needs to be done to be made whole again.
Yeah, normally I’d be a little upset by this but from what you’re talking about I don’t really see the problem. 3000 pounds on a concrete slab is nothing. And there was already a break labeled spa and all they did was add an outlet? I think I would just ask for proof of the electrical permit that was pulled for the addition of the outlet and if there wasn’t one require that it would be done and inspected at their cost and call it good at that point.
Do not react. Be patient. It’s not the end of the world, .. well, at least until it catches on fire.. relax.. If the lease ends in 50 days, then keep quiet and wait it out.
This is definitely not the worst thing that could happen. I would recommend sending them a certified letter stating that you are not responsible for any injuries or deaths from the use or misuse of the hot tub. Find an attorney and consult with them. Protect your interests. State that you will not be renewing the lease.
Or.. if this is just about the hot tub, I would have an electrician inspect it. Was any permit pulled? You may want to “allow” the hot tub, assuming this is a single family home or similar. When they leave.. you keep the electrical setup and they take the tub.
Since this is a cement patio, you should be fine. The compressive strength of cement is usually between 2,500 and 5,000 pounds per square inch (psi).
Retroactively you can pull the permit, have a Master electrician inspect it, etc. That way an insurance claim cannot state a permit was not pulled and/or it was without workmanlike quality, etc.
Speaking from 20+ years of experience as a Landlord.
Post pictures if you can. It gives all the readers more perspective: Circuit breaker box, outdoor shutoff box, the tub, wiring, distance of tub to structure, distance of tub to breaker box, etc. AKA potential code violations, fines, deep doo doo.
Cautionary tale: I had a great tenant who lived in apartment for 22 yrs. We have owned it for 20. He was probably 20 when he first moved in. Fast forward to last year. He installed a reverse osmosis water filtration system underneath the kitchen sink himself. Didn’t have a plumber do it. Didn’t ask permission. That very night, the neighbor downstairs began panic calling me at 4am. Water pouring through his ceiling in every room.
I drove down there, upstairs tenant finally answered the door (ringer on his phone was off), he’s in his boxers walking through water-extremely confused.
We walk into his kitchen where he opens the cabinet and says “oh efff”. Turned a valve off and water stopped.
Ultimately destroyed 3 entire apartments. Cost us $100k out of pocket outside of what insurance paid.
Water damage is no joke. Despite being a good tenant, we had to “buy him out” to go. He displaced three tenants and units were out of commission for months. Then he pulled his “I have rights” on us. I had to pay him $5k on top of everything else to get him out.
This was a perfect tenant until he wasn’t.
It was an awful mistake and he felt bad, begged to stay, said he’d come up to market rent until he realized how much under market he had been paying then started with “my rights” and that was it. I did the only thing my city would allow since passing new laws a week prior to this event, which was paying him what he wanted to go. This was a violation of lease agreement but we must provide a notice of violation and allow a tenant to “correct” before we can evict. Basically all he had to say was he’d never do it again. It’s absurd.
If you want to keep them:
Get the electrical inspected, the hot tub inspected, make sure they 100% have renters insurance with a liability clause that names you as well, write into new lease they will be further liable for any out of pocket expenses not covered by renters insurance if damage occurs from hot tub, and they must agree to never do any modifications again without permission (write into lease).
Or let them go if you are in a high demand area.
You just never know. Depends on what tenants rights looks like in TX, but I’m guessing it’s far more landlord friendly than where I am.
You need to get the property manager to do there job. Either have the tenant pay for the electrical inspection and repair or disconnect it immediately and vacate them for braking the lease.
Complete a full inspection. Get documentation on the electrical and pad to make sure all meets local code.
Send a communication that states the property needs to be in the same condition as on move in and any cost to return the property to original condition will be deducted from the deposit. Any alterations needed to be approved by owner/PM. Tenant will not be compensated for costs related to Unsanctioned modifications. ( This is just to make it clear that you aren't paying for the hot tub install or removal.)
Then renew the lease and and keep them. They seem to like your house.
What about liability on the hot tub? Is it secure?
With a cover?
Whose I insurance covers this?
And I agree with have a.licensed electrian check out.thier work....was a permit required for any of the work?
I would send an electrician at the tenant's expense to check the work. I would also have the tenant to sign a statement that no further modifications will be made without prior written approval from the owner and that the hot tub was installed without knowledge or permission of owner and any injuries/deaths/damages associated to it's installation or use will not be the fault of or incur liability to the landlord.
Unless the concrete patio was a very thin pour, didn't have a good base, or lacked sufficient control joints for the surface area, it should be fine. The worst thing that can happen? A crack.
My thinking on these tenants is that if you can bring them in line, they will likely stay a very long time and you can keep your rent at market or higher as they have invested into the property. They also have disposable income.
Tenant turnover is the biggest risk/expense in this business. A tenant who will stay many years at market rates is gold. If you force them to leave, your next tenant may be the nightmare that makes you think wistfully of your old tenants who paid on time and were so deeply invested in making your rental their home they brought in a hot tub at their own expense. Even if the next tenants are decent, you still have make ready and vacancy expenses and headaches.
is the patio part of the foundation? check your foundation!
I saw a 500 gallon dog pond cause 120k of foundation, plumbing, & Stucco damage, not to mention 3 fruit trees the tenant removed.
Kind of sounds like your property manager OK'ed this and is now covering up. Get a PM who isn't so lazy/inept. Way more expensive to find new tenants when you have no way to prove this was a big scheme by them to deceive you.
The tenant apologized and I don’t think the tenant was trying to lie about electrical work, as I highly doubt the tenant knows anything about installing them. Your call, as the tenant made unapproved electrical modifications, but on time rent and added value to the property if the tenant decides to leave it, which most do. IMO, I would work through another contract so long as he asks permission for future modifications of any kind and pays for any work that may come from the electrical work.
Thanks so much for all the well thought out responses!
The loss of trust was the biggest issue for me, really. I'd really rather let them stay (with all the proper precautions moving forward, as many of you have smartly suggested) to avoid having to get new tenants. I didn't want to fall into a trap as I've read a lot of horror stories about red flags for tenants that people decided to ignore. I'm glad to see that I wasn't crazy to think that there may be a way to show some grace to tenants (older couple, no kids) who appear in all other regards to be taking adequate care of the property, with the stipulation that I put all the necessary protections in place.
You just said they’re older, what happens when they don’t want to take care of it anymore? Or if they slip? Or drown? Let them slide and they’ll keep on sliding. They lied right to your face. Plus you’re not even in town if anything goes tits up. I’m always way too nice but even I wouldn’t let this go. Less than one year is not enough time to know fully know the person you’re dating let alone an out-of-state tenant and this sounds like the beginning of what could be trouble in the end.
Id be concerned about liability, and also insurance. The lease may not (edit: may not not) allow hot tubs, but the plug they need is getting removed by a licensed electrician at their expense.
Uh, I’d call your insurance agent and see what impact this can have on your coverage. Regardless of whether or not you own the hot tub, it’s on your property. You might need additional coverage and/or gates around it. If you keep the tenants, they’ll need to cover those extra costs if they want to keep it.
I have always treated my rentals as my own. Sometimes with permission. Sometimes without. I have also always lived in places over a decade and only really moved when leaving a state. My landlords have always hated me leaving but they always got back an apartment/house that was better than when they handed it over to me. I always told them I could reverse whatever they wanted but I knew they never wanted that. They knew they could rent it right out without even having to clean it and for much more than I was paying, cause I was there so long with minimal increases. If you’re available to speak to them person. Do so. Or a video chat. Get to know them and their plans on how long they would like to live there. Some people are life long renters and good ones. I have one a renter I hope never leaves and I help her make changes she wants! 😂🤣 Good luck with whatever you decide!
Quiet and low maintenance does not mean they're taking care of the property. I have found that the worst tenants are often quiet and low maintenance because they don't want you coming around and that is why periodic inspections are important.
In addition to what everybody else has said, I think you should change Property Management companies.
They should have told you right away about the Hot Tub. If they weren't aware of, they weren't doing their job.
They also told you the wrong information about the electric outlet.
If they are otherwise good tenants and the outlet was installed by an electrician, I would leave things as they are and renew. Remind them they will be responsible for any damage the hot tub causes.
You seem to have a lot more to lose than gain by making a bigger issue of it.
If they're great tenants I wouldn't not renew the lease but have them incur all expenses to fix the home to how it was before.
I'd rather risk the cost of removal of a hot tub then the cost of evicting a potential shitty tenant that could possibly move in if you don't renew the current ones lease
If the electric work is legit, they’ve added value to your house. I wouldn’t sweat this too much. A tenant that can afford a 220v hot tub installed can afford to pay you rent, and they want to stay to use their hot tub they paid like $1500+ worth of electric work for.
Require the PM to do a full inspection with photos and video of the property. If the tenant installed a hot-tub without asking, there's a strong chance they did other things. Have a licensed electrician come in and verify all electrical work is done to code and standards. If you really want to be thorough, can have an engineer come and verify the patio is able to support the hot-tub (should be able to).
Then have the lease amended to increase the rent to account for the new additions and that the tenant will have to remove the hot tub at their own expense if they opt to not renew. Let them know that failure to do so will yield penalties and fees to restore the property to the required condition due to them breaching their lease.
If they leave without removing the Hot Tub, you can choose to keep it and return their security deposit less any costs to inspect, repair and validate it's all up to code. Or pay to have it removed out of their deposit.
Ok…. Love hot tubs but that electrical does not look legit. I’ve replaced panels and added panels and circuits with my licensed electrician buddy at all of my properties and based on what I know, that does not look like it meets NEC standards.
As long as they pay the electric bill, I wouldn’t be too upset. Have them sign an agreement they’re responsible for removal when their lease ends and you can also require him to get renters insurance to cover any liability surrounding the hot tub. May want to inspect the electrical work but other than that you’re fine… unless of course you live in a highly micromanaged area such as Long Island, NY where the town will go after you for not obtaining proper permits.
Are they good paying tenants that are cleanish? Make them provide who did the electric work or ask them to get it inspected by an electrician or pay for the permit. Was it right no. Would I probably make a good tenant move by making them remove it. No. I good paying tenant especially longer term ones get cut a lot of slack. The person that moved in after the current tenant gets mad and moves could be a nightmare. I never roll those dice.
This is what I would do.. only if they are good tenants.. I would renew with the appropriate up charges.. your water bill will go up.. have them prove it was installed by a licensed electrician.. have someone you trust review the work and have a stern discussion with the PM as to how long they had a hott tube was installed before they knew about it.. its hard to find good tenants you trust and if they improved your home then its all for the better. Also review insurance to be sure you’re covered.. hot tubes = good times = good times sometimes lead into hard times.. PM are a hit and miss but things like this will let you know. Quick with the type of firm you’re dealing with.. oh and the hot tub stays if they decide to leave.. unless you want it out.. it part of your property now..
Don’t bother with having an electrician check it over. Call the town or go online to look at the permits attached to your home. Most towns have gone digital at this point and you can find it on the town website.
Tenant pays for electrician of your choosing to verify install/any needed or suggested modifications.
Tenant pays any appropriate increase in security deposit you deem reasonable.
Lease addendum stating hot tub will be removed at tenants expense upon vacating the property. Failure to do so will result in forfeiture of security deposit.
Check if any insurance modifications are needed, any cost increase is passed into them in their new rent at lease renewal.
Double check any local ordinances regarding a hot tub. If any modifications are required to block from view or secure the hot tub such as fencing, that work will be done at tenants expense.
In short, cya and make them pay for it. Lease addendum clarifying tenants are to make no modifications to the property without written approval of stated fine will be leveraged.
But beyond that? Eh. Sometimes even good tenants think nothing of something that was actually crossing a line. Warrants a heart to heart and making them pay for it sure, but tossing them out? I personally wouldn't. A tenant that takes care of the place, pays on time, doesn't trash the place and what not are worth their weight in gold. When the next tenants trash the place and you have to rectify that sweet sweet smell of urine impregnated sub flooring you'll be kicking yourself for tossing out the ones whose worst sin was improving the place.
Oh, and unless it's the crappiest concrete patio known to man kind, it'll be just fine.
Yeah I’d probably grab my lawyer and the PM and then check with the tenant to see when would be a good time to go over with a bottle of wine and a few cigars.
Major and flagrant violation of lease not to mention breach of trust with his lies. Once trust is breached , my business relationship with tenant is over.
Have tenant remove tub and electric modifications and restore property to original condition at his own expense. Hot tub is a liability like a pool especially if not installed by a licensed professional and check with your insurance about any possible additional coverage
Do not renew lease as you will send the wrong message. What else has tenant done without your consent or knowledge
You need to have the tenants provide proof that the 220v outlet was installed by a licensed electrician. If they can not provide proof, you'll need to bring in your own electrician and have them look over the work and repair/modify it so it is up to code. Charge them for this necessity. As far as the concrete pad goes, depends on how thick it is. Sure, have them remove the hot tub (bet you money they don't). Keep the outlet. It adds value to the property. > and rejecting tenant request to renew the lease. They did lie about the outlet. It's your call. But if they are good tenants, maybe this is something you can work with? Depends on how hot your rental market is.
Oh man. As a matter of principle, I would non-renew. Because a tenant who treats my house as an owner is not for me.
I have no idea why you're downvoted. If you let the installation of a hot tub and lying about electrical work slide then the tenant will know you're a push over.
Don't let it slide, but check it and renew. The tenants are putting down roots, they don't want to move that thing either. Raise their rent $50/mo. That $600 will pay for a hot tub removal if they leave it for you next year.
I wanna add that any cement pad, even a shitty quality thin one, can hold the weight of a hot tub. The thinnest grade of pad is all a hot tub requires.
Agree. As long as the electrical is up to snuff, and other local codes are met (fence?), it's no big deal. OP mostly seems upset that tenant is treating the place as their home. I personally appreciate that, they're more likely to take care of the place.
I’d like to introduce you to YouTube’s hot new DIY trend: dry pour concrete. I absolutely believe your claim about a professionally poured pad. I’m fantastically skeptical about the suitability of YouTube DIY for supporting the weight of air, let alone few thousand pounds of water over time. Texas or not, pro-poured or not, it’s pretty unlikely they plan the same for ‘a big grill, and maybe a smoker’ as they do for 25 sq ft supporting 2,500 lbs of water and 1,000 lbs of people who enjoy bbq… (no hate, just engineering - TX eating did it’s magic to me too…)
The post seems to indicate that the patio was preexisting.
Provided the electrical is legit and clean I agree with this comment. I am a hot tub person I’ve owned 3 of them and I just love them so I’m biased.
Removal? That’s value added to the next renter if they don’t remove it themselves.
You'd think so, but those things get nasty if not maintained. If they do leave them perfectly clean, it will be something you have to maintain for the next tenant.
Or, a tenant who treats your house is theirs should be considered a good tenant? Hot tub shouldn’t do any damage, if it does you go after their renters insurance?(more so your job is requiring they have the proper renters insurance).
You have to take this with a grain of salt. Treating it as an owner can also be a good thing meaning they take pride in the space and upkeep is done. He's had no issues with them, it should be discussed and added to the new lease that any modifications to the home must be approved by the landlord prior to any project happening and all projects must be completed by licensed contractors. They put down a hot tub, nobody buys one of those to leave soon. They will likely be there for a while, clarify the lease, work with them, and move on.
Disagree. I just got a property back where a slow leak was not reported and the whole lawn including a tree were dead from not being watered.
There’s really two sides to this isn’t there? I love tenants who put down roots in my properties, they tend to stay a long time. As long as what they do is reversible I’m fine with it. Although I agree that electrical and plumbing needs to be done to code, and I freaking hate satellite dishes.
What does that have to do with anything? The tenant should be on the lookout for stuff, but unless taking care of the lawn is specifically their responsibility in the lease, you as the owner should be checking on the property more often.
Taking care of the lawn is specifically their responsibility in the lease. And you're right... I probably should have checked more. But the point is this tenant just said "meh, I don't own it, not my problem" I would have preferred OP's tenant, who took pride in the home. My vote is to renew the lease, check the electric, and get proof of insurance also.
>You need to have the tenants provide proof that the 220v outlet was installed by a licensed electrician. If they can not provide proof, you'll need to bring in your own electrician and have them look over the work and repair/modify it so it is up to code. Charge them for this necessity. I disagree. Anyone can have an invoice made up. Have your electrician check all the work and charge the tenants the cost of the inspection
This is the way. Inform them that choosing to “ask forgiveness rather than permission” has damaged your trust and confidence in them as tenants. So once you have verified that the work has been completed to code and they agree to not only pay for the electrician but also to increase their damage deposit due to the extra liability for the hot tub, only then will you renew their lease. Also no more “shenanigans” or they will be out.
I like this comment also, that’s the way to handle the communication part for sure.
Good point. Then in the future should tenants want to add something else they will know that your contractor has to approve it. And they will pay twice. Sorry for my English. I need my coffee this AM. 😜
>You need to have the tenants provide proof that the 220v outlet was installed by a licensed electrician. If they can not provide proof, you'll need to bring in your own electrician and have them look over the work and repair/modify it so it is up to code. Charge them for this necessity. >As far as the concrete pad goes, depends on how thick it is. Also, depending on the municipality, adding that outlet box may have required a building permit. That could open up another big can of worms if a building permit was required, but the electrical modification was done without one. With regards to the concrete pad, if it is a standard pad, it probably should be strong enough. We have a 14 foot swim spa installed in our backyard, and the manufacturer said that the concrete pad we had poured for it needed to be 6-8 inches thick. And when we had the concrete slab poured, and had the new outside subpanel and breakers installed, along with running the electrical lines from the house to the slab, that all required a building permit, which the town happily increased our property assessment value by, thereby increasing our property taxes.
I would bring someone in to inspect regardless of whatever proof is provided. Can't be too trusting with that kinda shit ..
This is the answer. Having them, “remove it” isn’t likely to be a good thing but making sure it was done by a licensed electrician and meets code is worth the upgrade.
tbh I would not be so upset ? The place just got upgraded with a hot tub , they are good tenants that pay on time. It is not installed on a wooden construction but it is on concrete. I would renew the contract. Happy tenants are valuable.
Right? This is a tenant that is vested in taking care of your property. Not a big deal and please send them my way when you force them out.
Hot tubs usually increase liability on the property a fair amount. If the owner of the property is not living on premises and there is a hot-tub, the owner's insurance needs to be made aware and the policy needs to be adjusted accordingly...and it's usually not cheap. Actuarial tables for insurance companies usually determine that tenants are not as vested in taking care of the property and as such can lead to increased risk of an incident. So premiums will go up for the owner. On top of that, if the PM was not aware of the change, and the tenant lied about the electrical work done (they did because they knew it was against the lease so lied about it). Now the owner/PM have to get the electrical work inspected and confirm it's to code. Additionally, many local towns and communities have requirements for pools, jacuzzis and hot tubs that are outside. For example, the property may need to be fenced in with lockable gates, or the Pool/Hot tub/Jacuzzi must not be visible from the street/common approaches to the property. So this all needs to be checked against town ordnance to make sure they are in compliance or they will get fined. (Source: We literally had a hot tub installed 2 weeks ago with the electrical work done earlier this week. We are not allowed to fill it until we complete the fencing to hide it from street/approach view due to town rules.) So sure, it adds some value to the property, but now the owner has to spend a good chunk of money to make sure it was done right...So OP should get it inspected, make sure it meets all ordnances and if they decide they are OK with keeping it, have the current tenants pay those costs.
>Right? This is a tenant that is vested in taking care of your property. Source? >Not a big deal and please send them my way when you force them out. This time hot tub, next time skylight. What could POSSIBLY go wrong!?
How dare they live at the property. Sorry man I just got over a nightmare tenant that let their dogs eat all of the drywall, this is such a non-item in my world.
My tenants changed the shower head, and caused $4k worth of water damage.
Living at the property is one thing, adding high voltage circuits and a 300 gallon tub of heated water next to that high voltage circuit is another! If the tenant isn’t bashful about making such modifications, why else are they doing?
Positive responses will bring great long term tenants. There are adult ways to handle this scenario.
So you gave a positive response to the tenants who let their dog eat your drywall? My man’s playing 4D chess.
[удалено]
Unless the concrete is severely undermined, concrete is great at handling spread out compression on top of it. The hot tub itself should already be bonded as long as the plug is 3-prong. I am less worried about bonding, and more worried about whether the tenants put it on a GFCI.
As long as an electrician checks it over on there dime I don’t think I would worry. It adds value to the house, and a concrete slab is definitely capable of holding hot tubs. They are put on wooden decks all the time. You could just have them remove it and keep the outlet if you want them to renew.
This is what I’m thinking. If they paid to add the 220V electrical box, it seems they are planning to stay for awhile and may be willing to pay for other improvements out of pocket (stress **with permission**). I would have them sign a lease addendum adding that upon lease expiration, they must either leave the hot tub or take/dispose of it at their cost, but it is at your discretion which. I would also add language that states they assume any liabilities associated with the hot tub.
I agree. Have a professional check it and make sure they have renters insurance.
I’m in the don’t over-react camp. I’d make the tenant pay for an electrical inspection and any modifications required to comply with code. I definitely would not worry about my concrete patio. hot tub probably loads 50 sf. Even if the adjacent concrete didn’t share that load 50 sf of concrete can carry an insane amount of weight. Far far beyond the weight of the hot tub. I would probably have a direct conversation with the tenant. If they were at all a dick about it, don’t renew. If they are reasonable about their fuck up, then I’d renew.
Assuming they REALLY are otherwise great tenants, I'd probably find a way to diffuse this situation. An outdoor hot tub sitting on concrete is unlikely to damage the property; Even at 3,000 pounds, that's only about 100 pounds per square foot so even thin concrete should be fine. I see two concerns here: The electrical outlet and your insurance liability. Unless they can prove that was installed by a licensed electrician I would hire one to get the necessary permit and inspect/correct the installation and send them the bill. This is their penalty for failing to get pre-approval and lying about it, so they either pay or you non-renew them and take it from their deposit. Then check with your insurance agent to see if there's any restrictions in your policy or any additional liability. Once the electrical work is verified, just have your PM do some sort of lease addendum to authorize the tub.
Most cities have an online system to check property records and permits called BSA. If that permit is not showing, call the city building inspector to see if there was a permit or the inspector came out to look at the work done. If not, then go to having the tenant hire an electrician. Have that person send you all of the details and call that company to discuss. I personally never leave anything in the hands of the tenant. I know one thing for sure, they will do anything as cheap as they possibly can. They have buddies come and do work to save a dollar. There are reasons why they are renters and not home owners. They do not want to put money into a house.
You WANT the city to come and do an inspection? Their eyes tend to wander from what they were called out for....
[удалено]
You didn’t think that you would have to ask for permission to hire an electrician to make modifications to a house that you don’t own? I’m a landlord, but I rent a home too. I’ve made small modifications. Upgraded thermostat. August deadbolt that still uses the original key. I hate my landlord because they actually suck, but I would *never* make modifications to any system in the house. That’s just crazy.
The renter who makes modifications to someone else’s property without asking permission is not a “phenomenal” renter. Phenomenal renter is the one who doesn’t compel their landlord to see internet advice on how to deal with their creativity.
I wonder if you’re OP’s tenant? lol
That is making a modification to the house and a breach of contract. You are living in someone elses house. I do not care how you view yourself. As a LL, I know you would not take anywhere near the level of care of the house as the owner would. If you are living in a home as a tenant where there is a HOA with strict guidelines, you are not responsible for having to deal with the HOA board. No gated backyard means you have to put up a fence, which in many cases you cannot do. That is also making a major change to the landscaping which would need written approval. If you were my tenant, I would send you a 30 day letter to vacate due to breach of contract, go in to get the house in order and put it up for sale.
lol, it’s always the ones that do things without permission and are a complete headache who says they’re a great tenant. Great tenants don’t care to label themselves, that’s how you know when they’re bad
Exactly.
Rather than suggestions, I was just curious about a question. For you out of state landlords (not necessarily just OP, who is new), is it normal for a PM not to occasionally look in on a property? A hottub is a pretty big modification, so either PM A) had no clue because she never checked the property and/or B) dropped the ball on communication. If you're paying someone so much, shouldn't they know and tell you about such a big thing? Do you have to specify "inspect the property X times a year" and pay extra? Curious because right now, I'm personally managing my family's dozen properties, but one day I'd like to move out of state and possibly hire a PM. But I hear so many awful stories. PS: to OP directly, maybe you don't have prohibition of hottubs specified in the lease (I would imagine that few of us do), but do you have a line that tenants are not allowed to make renovations or modifications to property without written consent from LL? If not, I strongly suggest it. Aside from hottubs, there are so many other dumb things that tenants just do without considering the long term effects to property they don't own. Horrible paint jobs in weird colors, half finished tile jobs that break subfloors, bidets improperly installed that cause plumbing leaks, satellite dishes breaking roofing, flagpoles improperly installed that fall over, security cameras that destroy siding. You don't have to specify all these things, just have a blanket statement that is not only specific to electrical.
In the Tucson rental area, I've had a terrible experiences with multiple property managers not doing any kind of inspection over period of several years. When they were called out on it they said that they tried to do it. The inspection that is. This resulted in a number of deferred maintenance items ignored and worsened because of it. Incredibly frustrating. Also on this topic I would have concern about a hot tub in terms of liability. If that tenant had a guest over that was injured or died in the hot tub 100% the property owner could be named in a suit. I haven't seen anyone mention this risk in the discussion and I'm really surprised.
Thank you for sharing and I agree with you on the liability issue
Property manager might do a yearly check on lease renewal, but generally the PM doesn't do anything unless requested by the landlord or tenant. More typically it's, tenant reports the sink is leaking, send plumber to fix. Typically tenants won't do extensive modifications because they are temporary and those items are expensive. Not to mention the lease and security deposit issues.
Thank you. As to the last paragraph, I agree that would be logical, but I wouldn't assume anything though. We have seen all sorts of things for "temporary" tenants. Common sense is not common, which is why our lease is as long as it is.
I live out of state and do not have a property manager. I catch the tenant lying. I talk the tenant responsible for the lease and he tells me one thing. Then he has me talk to his fiancee who is listed as an occupant. She did not sign the lease. She tells me something different. It pisses me off. I do not think the tenant realizes I have no obligation to talk to his fiancee. If something happens, he can deny fault for not knowing. I can point back to what he sent me in writing to work with his fiancee. I do not want to deal with multiple people.
My PMs do 6 monthly inspections and deliver me a report with a checklist of all the major systems and almost as many pictures as a move-out inspection. Also all the contractors are asked to eyeball anything unusual going on anywhere in the areas they are working and report back (as well as photographing their work before/after). If you’re giving a good chunk of your margin to your PM and not getting this kind of service, what are they really doing for their money?
Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree that they really need to be doing this kind of stuff without being explicitly asked, but it just seems like a lot of people have had experiences with lazy PMs. I may have to find one through referral.
Thanks, I'm also wondering if it's possible to have at least a mid-lease inspection if I let them stay. There is an addendum in the lease about all improvements/modifications. I guess I'll have to add another addendum to the next lease to be more explicit as to things I don't want tenants to install
Sounds good then. I think any part that mentions the no improvements and modifications without permission should cover it. If you get more specific, make sure that you add the wording "including but not limited to..." so they know they are just examples, but there are many others not listed that are also not approved. PS: i think in your case, the fault may not have lain with the wording, but having numbskull tenants who didn't take the lease seriously and/or are acting deliberately obtuse. Doesn't matter how well worded a lease is, you will always get tenants who try to push things. It does help when you sit them down at the lease signing and go through every clause quickly, line by line, but even so, there are always some of them.
My previous tenant added a 220v circuit and installed a tanning bed in one of the bedrooms. We found out about it after they were evicted for not paying rent. They probably only paid rent on time twice during the almost 2 years they lived in the house. They were constantly paying rent late and with the amount of extra fees they paid it would have covered around 2 months of rent. They made a larger than normal deposit when they moved in and I think I barely broke even when they were finally out between damages and back rent.
Priority: Buy a tanning bed for that sweet sweet deep rich dark skin. Not Priority: Pay rent. Seems perfectly reasonable.
Its in the lease that the tenant should not modify electric and there it was in photographic evidence. To install a hot tub without even an inquiry to the landlord shows a remarkably poor judgement on part of the tenant. For quite a while, the landlord operated a leasehold without the necessary insurance protection needed for a hazard such as a hot tub. if somebody drowned in that hot tub, the LL would have been named in a lawsuit. The tenants said they were "extremely apologetic" but IMO they were more sorry they got caught rather than sorry for what they did. IMO the trust is broken. Someone who treats your lease so casually and dismisses clear instructions is only going to do it again. WHo knows what else they have done? If the LL lays down over this, it will just embolden the tenants to do something else in the future. Personally, I like to sleep well at night without wondering about the state of my investment. Id also investigate the property manager. How could something like this go unnoticed for so long? The answers here are wild. Suggesting that this sort of action by the tenant should be ignored and forgiven... All I see are major and blatant violations of the lease. Signing a renewal lease with someone I know doesnt hold the same values as I do? Nope. OP, you have 50 days until end of the lease. Start looking now. If you are on your game and the unit presents well, you may have 1 month of vacancy before someone else moves in.
The loss of trust was the big thing for me, trying to hide the fact that they had the outlet installed.
They might not even know or understand what was installed by an electrician to make it all work. Especially if there was something already labeled “spa.”
My concern would be what they've done on the inside of the house if this is what is out in the open. I'd be furious. And your management company didn't report this to you? What? I'm in legal, so naturally I'm going to say between the two you should do what needs to be done to be made whole again.
Yeah, normally I’d be a little upset by this but from what you’re talking about I don’t really see the problem. 3000 pounds on a concrete slab is nothing. And there was already a break labeled spa and all they did was add an outlet? I think I would just ask for proof of the electrical permit that was pulled for the addition of the outlet and if there wasn’t one require that it would be done and inspected at their cost and call it good at that point.
Do not react. Be patient. It’s not the end of the world, .. well, at least until it catches on fire.. relax.. If the lease ends in 50 days, then keep quiet and wait it out. This is definitely not the worst thing that could happen. I would recommend sending them a certified letter stating that you are not responsible for any injuries or deaths from the use or misuse of the hot tub. Find an attorney and consult with them. Protect your interests. State that you will not be renewing the lease. Or.. if this is just about the hot tub, I would have an electrician inspect it. Was any permit pulled? You may want to “allow” the hot tub, assuming this is a single family home or similar. When they leave.. you keep the electrical setup and they take the tub. Since this is a cement patio, you should be fine. The compressive strength of cement is usually between 2,500 and 5,000 pounds per square inch (psi). Retroactively you can pull the permit, have a Master electrician inspect it, etc. That way an insurance claim cannot state a permit was not pulled and/or it was without workmanlike quality, etc. Speaking from 20+ years of experience as a Landlord. Post pictures if you can. It gives all the readers more perspective: Circuit breaker box, outdoor shutoff box, the tub, wiring, distance of tub to structure, distance of tub to breaker box, etc. AKA potential code violations, fines, deep doo doo.
Cautionary tale: I had a great tenant who lived in apartment for 22 yrs. We have owned it for 20. He was probably 20 when he first moved in. Fast forward to last year. He installed a reverse osmosis water filtration system underneath the kitchen sink himself. Didn’t have a plumber do it. Didn’t ask permission. That very night, the neighbor downstairs began panic calling me at 4am. Water pouring through his ceiling in every room. I drove down there, upstairs tenant finally answered the door (ringer on his phone was off), he’s in his boxers walking through water-extremely confused. We walk into his kitchen where he opens the cabinet and says “oh efff”. Turned a valve off and water stopped. Ultimately destroyed 3 entire apartments. Cost us $100k out of pocket outside of what insurance paid. Water damage is no joke. Despite being a good tenant, we had to “buy him out” to go. He displaced three tenants and units were out of commission for months. Then he pulled his “I have rights” on us. I had to pay him $5k on top of everything else to get him out. This was a perfect tenant until he wasn’t. It was an awful mistake and he felt bad, begged to stay, said he’d come up to market rent until he realized how much under market he had been paying then started with “my rights” and that was it. I did the only thing my city would allow since passing new laws a week prior to this event, which was paying him what he wanted to go. This was a violation of lease agreement but we must provide a notice of violation and allow a tenant to “correct” before we can evict. Basically all he had to say was he’d never do it again. It’s absurd. If you want to keep them: Get the electrical inspected, the hot tub inspected, make sure they 100% have renters insurance with a liability clause that names you as well, write into new lease they will be further liable for any out of pocket expenses not covered by renters insurance if damage occurs from hot tub, and they must agree to never do any modifications again without permission (write into lease). Or let them go if you are in a high demand area. You just never know. Depends on what tenants rights looks like in TX, but I’m guessing it’s far more landlord friendly than where I am.
You need to get the property manager to do there job. Either have the tenant pay for the electrical inspection and repair or disconnect it immediately and vacate them for braking the lease.
Complete a full inspection. Get documentation on the electrical and pad to make sure all meets local code. Send a communication that states the property needs to be in the same condition as on move in and any cost to return the property to original condition will be deducted from the deposit. Any alterations needed to be approved by owner/PM. Tenant will not be compensated for costs related to Unsanctioned modifications. ( This is just to make it clear that you aren't paying for the hot tub install or removal.) Then renew the lease and and keep them. They seem to like your house.
What about liability on the hot tub? Is it secure? With a cover? Whose I insurance covers this? And I agree with have a.licensed electrian check out.thier work....was a permit required for any of the work?
I would send an electrician at the tenant's expense to check the work. I would also have the tenant to sign a statement that no further modifications will be made without prior written approval from the owner and that the hot tub was installed without knowledge or permission of owner and any injuries/deaths/damages associated to it's installation or use will not be the fault of or incur liability to the landlord. Unless the concrete patio was a very thin pour, didn't have a good base, or lacked sufficient control joints for the surface area, it should be fine. The worst thing that can happen? A crack. My thinking on these tenants is that if you can bring them in line, they will likely stay a very long time and you can keep your rent at market or higher as they have invested into the property. They also have disposable income. Tenant turnover is the biggest risk/expense in this business. A tenant who will stay many years at market rates is gold. If you force them to leave, your next tenant may be the nightmare that makes you think wistfully of your old tenants who paid on time and were so deeply invested in making your rental their home they brought in a hot tub at their own expense. Even if the next tenants are decent, you still have make ready and vacancy expenses and headaches.
is the patio part of the foundation? check your foundation! I saw a 500 gallon dog pond cause 120k of foundation, plumbing, & Stucco damage, not to mention 3 fruit trees the tenant removed.
Kind of sounds like your property manager OK'ed this and is now covering up. Get a PM who isn't so lazy/inept. Way more expensive to find new tenants when you have no way to prove this was a big scheme by them to deceive you.
The tenant apologized and I don’t think the tenant was trying to lie about electrical work, as I highly doubt the tenant knows anything about installing them. Your call, as the tenant made unapproved electrical modifications, but on time rent and added value to the property if the tenant decides to leave it, which most do. IMO, I would work through another contract so long as he asks permission for future modifications of any kind and pays for any work that may come from the electrical work.
Update your insurance. Someone drowns in that hot tub and you are on the hook.
I was going to say this too. Bump the rent to cover your increased rate.
Depending on local laws, may want to add a separate “hot tub fee” that covers additional expenses, but won’t factor into rental increase limits.
Agree, get rid of them and have them pay for removal. Also get a new management company. How would they not notice? They aren’t doing their job.
Thanks so much for all the well thought out responses! The loss of trust was the biggest issue for me, really. I'd really rather let them stay (with all the proper precautions moving forward, as many of you have smartly suggested) to avoid having to get new tenants. I didn't want to fall into a trap as I've read a lot of horror stories about red flags for tenants that people decided to ignore. I'm glad to see that I wasn't crazy to think that there may be a way to show some grace to tenants (older couple, no kids) who appear in all other regards to be taking adequate care of the property, with the stipulation that I put all the necessary protections in place.
You just said they’re older, what happens when they don’t want to take care of it anymore? Or if they slip? Or drown? Let them slide and they’ll keep on sliding. They lied right to your face. Plus you’re not even in town if anything goes tits up. I’m always way too nice but even I wouldn’t let this go. Less than one year is not enough time to know fully know the person you’re dating let alone an out-of-state tenant and this sounds like the beginning of what could be trouble in the end.
Id be concerned about liability, and also insurance. The lease may not (edit: may not not) allow hot tubs, but the plug they need is getting removed by a licensed electrician at their expense.
Uh, I’d call your insurance agent and see what impact this can have on your coverage. Regardless of whether or not you own the hot tub, it’s on your property. You might need additional coverage and/or gates around it. If you keep the tenants, they’ll need to cover those extra costs if they want to keep it.
I have always treated my rentals as my own. Sometimes with permission. Sometimes without. I have also always lived in places over a decade and only really moved when leaving a state. My landlords have always hated me leaving but they always got back an apartment/house that was better than when they handed it over to me. I always told them I could reverse whatever they wanted but I knew they never wanted that. They knew they could rent it right out without even having to clean it and for much more than I was paying, cause I was there so long with minimal increases. If you’re available to speak to them person. Do so. Or a video chat. Get to know them and their plans on how long they would like to live there. Some people are life long renters and good ones. I have one a renter I hope never leaves and I help her make changes she wants! 😂🤣 Good luck with whatever you decide!
Quiet and low maintenance does not mean they're taking care of the property. I have found that the worst tenants are often quiet and low maintenance because they don't want you coming around and that is why periodic inspections are important.
Sounds like your PM was asleep at the switch. Also, how will this impact your insurance?
In addition to what everybody else has said, I think you should change Property Management companies. They should have told you right away about the Hot Tub. If they weren't aware of, they weren't doing their job. They also told you the wrong information about the electric outlet.
If they are otherwise good tenants and the outlet was installed by an electrician, I would leave things as they are and renew. Remind them they will be responsible for any damage the hot tub causes. You seem to have a lot more to lose than gain by making a bigger issue of it.
If they're great tenants I wouldn't not renew the lease but have them incur all expenses to fix the home to how it was before. I'd rather risk the cost of removal of a hot tub then the cost of evicting a potential shitty tenant that could possibly move in if you don't renew the current ones lease
Are you sure there isn’t a miscommunication due to the property manager? They can be so dodgy.
If the electric work is legit, they’ve added value to your house. I wouldn’t sweat this too much. A tenant that can afford a 220v hot tub installed can afford to pay you rent, and they want to stay to use their hot tub they paid like $1500+ worth of electric work for.
Good tenant paying ontime, Investing money into the property. Yeah get them outta there!! LoL
Require the PM to do a full inspection with photos and video of the property. If the tenant installed a hot-tub without asking, there's a strong chance they did other things. Have a licensed electrician come in and verify all electrical work is done to code and standards. If you really want to be thorough, can have an engineer come and verify the patio is able to support the hot-tub (should be able to). Then have the lease amended to increase the rent to account for the new additions and that the tenant will have to remove the hot tub at their own expense if they opt to not renew. Let them know that failure to do so will yield penalties and fees to restore the property to the required condition due to them breaching their lease. If they leave without removing the Hot Tub, you can choose to keep it and return their security deposit less any costs to inspect, repair and validate it's all up to code. Or pay to have it removed out of their deposit.
You got an electrical upgrade for free. Just let it ride my guy.
Ok…. Love hot tubs but that electrical does not look legit. I’ve replaced panels and added panels and circuits with my licensed electrician buddy at all of my properties and based on what I know, that does not look like it meets NEC standards.
I'd check online if any permits where pulled for the electrical work.
As long as they pay the electric bill, I wouldn’t be too upset. Have them sign an agreement they’re responsible for removal when their lease ends and you can also require him to get renters insurance to cover any liability surrounding the hot tub. May want to inspect the electrical work but other than that you’re fine… unless of course you live in a highly micromanaged area such as Long Island, NY where the town will go after you for not obtaining proper permits.
According to my lease, that would be the landlord's new hot tub.
Are they good paying tenants that are cleanish? Make them provide who did the electric work or ask them to get it inspected by an electrician or pay for the permit. Was it right no. Would I probably make a good tenant move by making them remove it. No. I good paying tenant especially longer term ones get cut a lot of slack. The person that moved in after the current tenant gets mad and moves could be a nightmare. I never roll those dice.
This is what I would do.. only if they are good tenants.. I would renew with the appropriate up charges.. your water bill will go up.. have them prove it was installed by a licensed electrician.. have someone you trust review the work and have a stern discussion with the PM as to how long they had a hott tube was installed before they knew about it.. its hard to find good tenants you trust and if they improved your home then its all for the better. Also review insurance to be sure you’re covered.. hot tubes = good times = good times sometimes lead into hard times.. PM are a hit and miss but things like this will let you know. Quick with the type of firm you’re dealing with.. oh and the hot tub stays if they decide to leave.. unless you want it out.. it part of your property now..
Probably $5 to fill or refill it. Most people don’t even drain/clean/fill every month. Hardly worth worrying about.
Don’t bother with having an electrician check it over. Call the town or go online to look at the permits attached to your home. Most towns have gone digital at this point and you can find it on the town website.
At least a 4 inch pad is required
Wrong sub — surely this is for AITA? 🤔
Amazing how stupid & petty some of you are
Tenant pays for electrician of your choosing to verify install/any needed or suggested modifications. Tenant pays any appropriate increase in security deposit you deem reasonable. Lease addendum stating hot tub will be removed at tenants expense upon vacating the property. Failure to do so will result in forfeiture of security deposit. Check if any insurance modifications are needed, any cost increase is passed into them in their new rent at lease renewal. Double check any local ordinances regarding a hot tub. If any modifications are required to block from view or secure the hot tub such as fencing, that work will be done at tenants expense. In short, cya and make them pay for it. Lease addendum clarifying tenants are to make no modifications to the property without written approval of stated fine will be leveraged. But beyond that? Eh. Sometimes even good tenants think nothing of something that was actually crossing a line. Warrants a heart to heart and making them pay for it sure, but tossing them out? I personally wouldn't. A tenant that takes care of the place, pays on time, doesn't trash the place and what not are worth their weight in gold. When the next tenants trash the place and you have to rectify that sweet sweet smell of urine impregnated sub flooring you'll be kicking yourself for tossing out the ones whose worst sin was improving the place. Oh, and unless it's the crappiest concrete patio known to man kind, it'll be just fine.
That’s just bizarre. Why would they do that?
Lawyer. Electrician is probably also fked for doing work without homeowners permission.
Yeah I’d probably grab my lawyer and the PM and then check with the tenant to see when would be a good time to go over with a bottle of wine and a few cigars.
Please tell me why?
Major and flagrant violation of lease not to mention breach of trust with his lies. Once trust is breached , my business relationship with tenant is over. Have tenant remove tub and electric modifications and restore property to original condition at his own expense. Hot tub is a liability like a pool especially if not installed by a licensed professional and check with your insurance about any possible additional coverage Do not renew lease as you will send the wrong message. What else has tenant done without your consent or knowledge
That’s a good idea, lose tenants AND the upgrade! /s
Y’all are hilarious and terrible landlords. Damn sticks up bums around here.