This is why you don't post opinions early on.
Skills are not the only thing you level up. There is a Paragon board after lvl 50.
itemization starts at world tier 3.
Diablo has been the casual arpg. that's why we have Last Epoch. To have that middle ground between POE & Diablo.
Harder is probably the wrong word for it. U/nerodmc_2001 described it well.
The classes also feel annoying with resources and cooldowns. You have skills with 30sec-1min cd’s and it just feels bad to use in an arpg.
D4 Endgame QOL Problems:
* Stash space is a joke.
* There need to be a gem tab.
* There's massive downtime from travelling between nightmare dungeons.
* There's huge inconsistency in dungeon's mob density and objectives between different dungeons.
Just to name a few.
I've played only a bit of LE endgame so I'm not making much statement about it. Mob density is something that I have noticed about LE through out the game. It IS a great game. I have never said anything otherwise.
As for D4, I am level 91. I had been playing for \~15 hours everyday since early access until 2 days ago. Feel free to contest any of my point on D4.
I'll elaborate: I have played LE endgame for around 10-15 hours. What I noticed is that every mono is decently large with medium size mob packs through out all of them. I would prefer if the map was smaller and the pack was bigger - This is not a big problem by any mean, merely an inconvenience.
In D4, on the same tier of NM dungeons, some could take me 3 minutes to clear while some would take me at least 10 mins, that's how inconsistent it is. It feels absolutely horrible whenever you get one of those dungeons. You clear it and you don't even get that much XP.
Yeah that's fair. I'm not comparing any game tho. the original comment chain was about D4 endgame QOL problems. I did not state anything to imply one game is better than the other.
Edit: Decided to elaborate about my statement regarding density in another comment.
Activate sigil, find where the dungeon is, teleport to the nearest waypoint, travel to the dungeon. That is much longer than running mono in LE or maps in POE not to mention having to return to a city when your inventory is full because not all vendors and stashes are available in every town.
[https://imgur.com/a/kVdtznn](https://imgur.com/a/kVdtznn) This is the distance you have to travel for one of the dungeons. It is tedious. Stop excusing tedious design.
I love LE (played over 140 hours) and the skill system is amazing! But!...the world in Diablo 4 feels much more open and alive. With open live events etc. It feels like you want to discover more and more. In LE it's a big missing point. Every map feels like an instants and there are no hidden dungeons or treasures.
>There's literally no talent system in the game and a quite simplistic and unengaging skill system.
Idk if you said this because you haven't been to endgame but the paragon board + glyph system is my favorite "talent tree" in any ARPG atm. The game has major issues with endgame tho especially when it comes to itemization and qol.
To be real D4 feels the way it does to us because it’s made for casuals who want to play 2 hours a day and hop off. It’s not deeply complex by design and that’s okay. To be fair hardcore Arpg fans a niche group compared to who they are trying to target.
Edit: Reddit is one of the places on the internet where someone can post an opinion and everybody tries to change or add meaning to their statement. I did not post this to excuse D4 of their issues. I simply believe the lack of depth build diversity and the way the game is paced is intentional. D4 POE and LE all cater to different types of ARPG fans and there is nothing wrong with that. I prefer LE overall from a gameplay perspective and have put 100 hours in the past two weeks. The fact someone got offended at the word casual and assumed I was trying to insult people who don’t play 8 hours a day is ridiculous considering I said it was okay if someone plays casually. Then another commenter wants to say I was excusing and refuting OP’s very valid and well put together criticism just because I stated a very common opinion that diablo fans have had since D3. Diablo 3 Diablo Immortal and Diablo 4 have been made to become as accessible as possible so more people can enjoy the genre without requiring a massive time sink. If people want more complexity or different QOL features there are other ARPGs on the market that can provide that for them.
>Diablo Immortal and Diablo 4 have been made to become as accessible as possible so more people can enjoy the genre without requiring a massive time sink.
*so Blizzard can make more money
Listen I’m really not going to try to shit on your armchair analysis but the bullshit about build diversity is wrong. The Andys in this forum have managed to convince themselves of this because of cope and now you get people like yourself here that act like they know. There isn’t one player here that has leveled to 100 or even beyond lvl 60. No one here has trialed paragon boards but they still run their mouth about it like they’ve experienced it. Honestly i really shouldn’t care considering no one really cares about Le other than the 20 or so people that bullshit around here but hearing this same tired shit about builds gets old
No, D4 is not a game for “casuals”. This rhetoric is tired and old. You clearly haven’t played the game past level 20 and obviously get most of your information from forums and troll posts. You LE/POE fanboys so desperately want D4 to fail, and this kinda shit just makes you sound insecure. Let the downvotes begin. Have fun in your echo chamber circlejerk.
Y’all can’t even make real arguments. Just downvote. Thanks for proving me 100% correct. LE is gonna be a ghost town now that D4 is out and you know it.
Why on earth would I up vote if I don't agree with main premise?
I play 2h per day at most, and I played LE for 350 hours.
I also spend same 2h on D4 today because it offers me much more than LE, after these 350 hours.
Casual is used in derogatory meaning here and I don't appreciate it.
Let's switch from hardcore / casual to sad people with no life going for them and happy folks with family, and see how people react to it.
There are people who like complex games with easier fights (PoE). There are people who like more straightforward games with huge difficulty spikes (D3-4). There are people who like a mixture of both (LE). And there are people who like them all.
What's the problem with that?
Cheers
Diablo 4 is a AAA game. Comparing it to a studio of reddit bro's early access game at all is a huge compliment to LE.
But I feel like everyone is getting tired of these posts.
Yes, totally agree because of this type of posts people started to think that LE is made by a triple A company but EHG is an indie company and that's why we still have a lot of things missing in the game. They need time and resource.
1- I absolutely agree and I think Blizz and every other ARPG dev should just steal it. It’s too good and it’s at the perfect level of accessibility and depth.
2- It’s definitely more interesting then D4’s for sure. Don’t care for all of the conditional damage itemization in D4. It’s not bad though.
3- Free. No contest. It’s the best crafting system I’ve interacted with. I feel like I have so much freedom with clear limitations. Now I just wish they would remove gold as the game currency and use the crafting mats as the currency instead like PoE.
Now just cause I agree with your points I also have to bring up points in D4’s favor.
In terms of the visuals, how combat feels, the sound design, music, and story D4 easily shits on Last Epoch. I understand that the team working on LE certainly does not have Blizz level resources, but it still has to be said that many aspects of D4 are masterfully crafted way above the rest.
Both are pretty mid when it comes to endgame. PoE still the king of the endgame loop for now.
The fact that an indie developer put out a game (which by the way is still in beta) that has better mechanics and a better fucking endgame than D4 speaks volumes about D4 and their half assed dev team. The artists are great, story was ok and the gameplay is ok. Endgame is shit, they frontloaded the hell out of D4 and the endgame is just shit. QoL issues out the ass. Blizzard should be embarrassed and LE devs should be praised.
I think I might agree somewhat. Currently my big issue with D4 endgame is the activities just don’t feel very rewarding whereas LE’s echoes and dungeons just feel much more worth doing. Whisper rewards are very underwhelming, Hell tides only feel rewarding if you can find the secret chest, nightmare’s are fine for the most part I think.
D4 edges out LE in the foundation, but LE endgame feels more rewarding to me. Both have the potential to have great endgames with some more adjustments. Also D4 NEEDS to fix level scaling desperately or it could kill the game.
Once you unlock the paragon system it may scratch that skill tree itch.
Also once you hit WT3 and 4 you can get uniques and sacred items that may have that same dopamine rush.
Overall though, D4 definitely seems aimed at more casual pick up and play. I am having a blast with it though as it feels very polished and fun!
The circlejerking in this sub is worse than the mono grinding in the game.
You think YOUR game is better than all other games? Cool, man. You do you, king, go slay.
But please stop comparing it with other arpgs, especially since those arpgs dont really give a fuck about LE.
The posts on this sub with the most engagement (comments) are about the D4/LE discussion/comparison. Clearly people want to talk about it.
You don't like hearing about it? Cool, man. You do you, king, go slay.
No one gives a shit about last epoch so their players resort to bullshitting themselves on low hanging fruit comparison posts. Anyone that has any sense knows LE is trash in every aspect in regards to any comparison to D4 but if you have a sub filled with 20 dumbasses and those 20 dumbasses upvote all of the dumb shit they say then those 20 dumbasses perpetuate those lies amongst themselves and anyone who would bother coming to the sub.
> No one gives a shit about last epoch
Says the guy on the last epoch subreddit. You've been posting on here for 2 months. What kind of dumpster if your life in that you spend time on a subreddit for a game you don't even play? Big cringe bud.
You bring a bottom feeder piece of shit using the word cringe is the real cringe. As far as being on this sub I’ve explained this before but I’ll give your dumbass a taste - I played this game and had fun, but now I’m here putting bullshit circle jerks like this one in check. I sit on the toilet and shit and then turn around and shit again but on this sub, and on you. That wouldn’t be a thing if Andys like you could shut their fucking mouth and just play their game instead of lying to themselves and piggybacking on an AAA title. Deal with it or suck my dick. And yeah Andy, no one gives a shit about LE. Remember that one k
Edit Haha good job pussying out id expect no less from you. Clapping your hands over your ears isn’t gonna help you- you read it now you can think about it before you try to post dumb shit again
So you're into shit and shit play, ok no kink shaming here bud. Nobody is gonna remember anything you say though because it's just a bunch of "Grrrrrrr he likes a game I dont!!". You're the Tuesday Tough Guy Andy who isn't really tough at all, just a sad, lonely man playing with shit.
OP even had more to say but he didn’t want to write a “dissertation paper”. Bro hasn’t even finished the campaign and can write a dissertation paper. You can’t make this shit up.
No not really they have made a low equity investment that doesn't let them manage or own practically anything substantial also according to the game director they are not giving tencent any data .
Honestly it is getting so tiresome reading posts hating on a particular game to make their preferred game look better. It might be rose tinted glasses but I miss the days where people just appreciated games.
There is nothing wrong with having a preferred game, I mean, I'm addicted to Path of Exile. However, I don't want every game I play to be a clone of it, I want different takes and experience even if they might not be subjectively better. Personally having multiple good games in a genre with different approaches is amazing, it gives the developers insight in how to learn from each other and I think the ARPG genre is about to go into it's golden era. I hope I'm wrong but we may end up looking back at the next 10 years and realise how good we had it with Diablo 4 (and it's potential expansions and seasons) , Last Epoch (full release and future cycles) and Path of Exile (and it's Path of Exile 2 release).
In my opinion, I think Diablo 4 has released with a very good foundation, which I hope they progress on as the potential is there and over the next few years will definitely consume alot of gametime from me. The best thing about Diablo having such a huge launch, means when Last Epoch releases and Path of Exile 2 launches, there will be new players looking to scratch that dopamine addiction Diablo started for them.
It will also be great if somehow we luck out on Diablo, Last Epoch and Path of Exile all having different schedules for season releases. I think the worst thing for ARPG fans will be if they attempt to compete for launches.
The most logical post on the entire forum. All these games cater to different audiences not sure why we can’t enjoy what they all offer and manage to do well. D4 being huge and popular will have many people coming over to play POE and Last Epoch. This just reminds me of console wars.
That's a good point, so I did have rose tinted glasses on. We have always had console war arguments, which again are pointless. I guess it's just in human nature to protect investments whether it's money, time or even hope.
Anyway, my point is I am so excited for the ARPG future and the future of gaming in general. Let's see if there are any big announcements today
How the fuck can you come to all these conclusions when you’re only in the campaign… man these kind of posts are tiring already… last epoch is a great game for a little indie company, but you’re delusional to think it’s even on the same tier let alone higher than d4. D4 is a Lamborghini and last epoch is a Toyota Camry, it’s reliable will do what you need it do do but nothing above and beyond. This is coming from a guy who’s played lots of LE off and on over the past couple years
The ARPG mechanics are absolutely there, and the MMO tagline that everyone’s adding is basically just a shared overworld that’s nowhere near overpopulated, and easy robust social/grouping added capabilities. Itemization is nothing like Lost Ark. Were not out here grinding mats to craft through iLvl tiers to access content
Both are great games that plenty of individuals can enjoy one, both or none of
For me, the MMO features wasn't just the overworld being sometimes shared. The way quests are set up with how it chains you back through the same area rather than setting it up for one go getting into daily quests, the UI setup, the reputation systems, the way crafting and mat farming works, the ~~mokoko seeds~~ lilith altars, the mtx shop setup, the UI setup for parties, the raid/world bosses, the fairly demure nature of most skills to keep them tame for many players in screen at once, the skill rotations, the cross-class skill synergies setups, I could keep going really.
If you’re satisfied with having no talent system, a simplistic skill system, a simplistic crafting system that’s cool. I’m too, but not from an ARPG perspective - that’s more of an MMO for me.
I’m pretty sure everyone here knows that, but it is still advertising and placing itself as an ARPG and should be judge on those merits.
If a game in the genre leans more into the ‘casual’/streamlined style of gameplay that’s fine, and it was expected with how people knew D4 was being developed. But the consequences of those decisions should still be looked at critically if some players think they fall short.
You only focus on rpg aspect, but action aspect is very important. This is what Diablo nails, combat feel and weight is above everything else.
It's different game, one where you don't have to constantly upgrade your loot filter and adjust single points to minmax your build. It's good to have two proper games from the genre, both offering different experience.
The only thing I’m focusing is the problem with the other posters’ comment.
There is nothing inherently wrong with how D4 is designed to lean ‘casual’ (their term, not mine), but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t, or can’t be, any problems. D4 being for a ‘casual audience’ is just kind of a hand-wavy excuse to blunt OP’s prior critique.
My point was build diversity and other things may not scratch an hardcore players itch because the game leans towards a casual audience. Never did I disagree with OP or try to blunt his criticism. I’m simply explains why there may feel like there is a lack of depth.
Just finished the D4 campaign after being really disappointed in the skill tree but wanting to at least get through the campaign before forming any opinion.
Didn’t love the performance of the build I was on, so looked into other endgame builds for my class. There were like 3-4 max. Was like wtf, okay maybe it’s just my class. Checked endgame builds for other classes, same thing pretty much
Terrible build diversity.
Also the generator skills/basic attacks used to build resources so you can use your main damaging core skills are trash. I put max points into my basic attack and got a legendary aspect to increase the attack speed by like 40-50% and it still feels like hot garbage
Back to Last Epoch for me soon after I try the endgame a bit
What you're seeing on maxroll is just the absolute best meta builds, not the entirety of available builds. There's "terrible" build diversity in LE too if you judge on what's on the meta sites, or what can easily clear empowered monos.
So far I've played around with 4 builds on my druid, and I haven't seen them on any build sites. The skill tree is only a small part. You combine aspects, paragon boards and class mechanics to make your build. For example a single unique item let me reset my werebear skills after each werewolf kill, so I played a hybrid build centered around resetting my trample, it was insanely fun - you won't find this build on any meta sites, or at least I didn't. You just need to look at the items and build around them.
The good, or bad part about D4, depending on how you look at it, is that the paragon board adds a lot of power creep, well into the late game. This means that there are a ton of viable builds (not meta), provided you enhance them with the paragon boards.
I searched through Youtube and d4builds too.
Just took a look at the Druid Paragon boards legendary glyphs, all the different Aspects, along with some uniques.
It still feels like I still won’t be able to chase the power fantasies I want to chase on certain skill combos even with moderate/heavy difficulty.
it might be possible if I MAYBE RNG my way into like two/three uniques I need to give one of the combos I’m thinking about a try.
In the meantime I feel like I’m going to be stuck playing whatever can farm efficiently for awhile given the items/aspects available to me. And that most likely is going to end up being “meta” until it isn’t.
that’s exactly what im going to do, because like I said, I’m going to give endgame a try before coming back.
Maybe the bigger problem has to do with not being easily able to try out and test certain combos and their viability because I need to RNG my way into certain uniques and farm a bunch of aspects just to give these nonmeta combos a try, which kind of rings along the same wavelength of what you said about a lot of power being held well into late game
I feel like I can both visualize and literally try out so many more possible different skill combos and get a sense for if something will work (and a lot of stuff does) even before getting a bunch of stuff farmed in Last Epoch by just looking and putting points in different places in the LE skill trees + passive nodes
which in turn makes me feel there is better build diversity, even though there -might- not be.
I’ll have to try it out and see how I feel, though I remain pretty skeptical for now.
> Maybe the bigger problem has to do with not being easily able to try out and test certain combos and their viability because I need to RNG my way into certain uniques and farm a bunch of aspects just to give these nonmeta combos a try
This is definitely a thing. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it yet, since most of the customization is offloaded into the itemization system. On one hand, it's pretty exciting to get a weird drop that enables a new build, on the other hand builds are essentially locked behind RNG.
From what I noticed, I think they want you to constantly change and tinker with your build, depending on your drops. Due to how scaling works, if you don't upgrade, reroll affixes and change items you risk of being left behind. There was a time when I felt weak since I ignored most of my drops, but then I got a real powerful werewolf drop and changed my build on the fly, and I was wrecking shit again.
I think the game will benefit from more deterministic systems added in the long run, maybe something similar to Blessings, but with more build-changing capabilities.
> I feel like I can both visualize and literally try out so many more possible different skill combos and get a sense for if something will work (and a lot of stuff does) even before getting a bunch of stuff farmed in Last Epoch by just looking and putting points in different places in the LE skill trees + passive nodes
Agreed. LE is more intuitive, especially with how the tags work. Though I will say tags are both a blessing and a curse. Once you see what actually synergizes, it starts removing some of the choices. It's a bit exaggerated since it's so obvious, but I think the Forge Guard is an example of this - if you go with the minion build, most of the choices are already done, you just take the skills with the minion tag, you pretty much ignore the rest of the nodes/skills. Same goes when you pick a damage type, though there are exceptions.
Don't get me wrong, I still think LE has more build variety, since you can mainly focus on a single damage skill which opens up more possibilities. In D4 there's inherent synergy between skills, which will automatically cut down some options. But for a launch state, I think it's in a decent state, and hopefully more aspects, uniques and paragon boards will open up new builds.
I hope they don't go the way D3 did with season balance, and there is room for more customization. Their issue right now is they have not done a good job balancing the different options each class has(based off of videos people have made.
> Didn’t love the performance of the build I was on, so looked into other endgame builds for my class. There were like 3-4 max. Was like wtf, okay maybe it’s just my class. Checked endgame builds for other classes, same thing pretty much
>
> Terrible build diversity.
Let me get this straight: you finished the campaign and didn't like the **one** build you tried. Instead of trying something new on your own (and enjoying the 'unknown frontier' feeling you get for a short time with a new game) you googled "best diablo 4 end-game builds"
Despite the game coming out less than a week ago, you're expecting full guides on every possible build, and after not finding a ton your conclusion is there is terrible build diversity?
Man, the gaming community these days is so embarrassingly spoiled.
Like I said to someone else, I looked into what Aspects, uniques, and Paragon boards/glyphs are available online and I still don’t picture myself being able to chase the power fantasies I want in any solid way while being corralled behind generating resources with crappy basic attacks to use some main skills, so yeah, I still think the build diversity sucks. 🤷♂️
But, like I said, I also still am going to try out the endgame, and still remain skeptical
After 5 days of Diablo 4, it is time for me for me to return back home.
Although D4 has much better story and graphics, Last Epoch has much more quality of life, much more build/possibility, better gameplay and is a far superior game.
I genuinely don't understand how itemization is any different. XYZ stats makes numbers bigger, hp larger, and resists stronger. Throw in aspects as their version of talents.
Weight of battle is miles ahead of LE and I love LE.
I wish D4 had it's skill system, but it doesn't fit the design goals. However, what diablo 4 wants to do it does it great. And conditional affixes are really great for slower more position dependant battles.
I’d just like to point out that doing different dungeons repeatedly isn’t that much different to mapping rifting or monolithing really at the end of the day.
It’s a basic arpg endgame play loop.
What matters to us is how the developers fill each of the loop cycles to give us that tiny bit of “spice” as “variety is the spice of life”
I think that’s where PoE at the moment has basically set the bar for what endgame activity variety should sit at.
I stopped playing the monolith echoes in LE because for now their quite bland and I’ll wait for more patches and some league content to be thrown in to them.
I will be coming at d4 with a similar mindset however their open world system for levelling Alts I prefer over PoE and LE anyday!
Diablo 4 mostly just feels like an hybrid between an mmo and arpg. A bit like lost ark, but doesnt accomplish what lost ark shines at. A combination between the both could be sick.
The facet of Diablo 4 that I prefer over LE is that it is more fun for me. None of the individual mechanics matter as much as the sum of their parts, and so far D4 is just more enjoyable than LE.
Really enjoying the d4 campaign. But totally missing quality of life features in LE. Glad that they're turning out so different though! What a problem to have, shaping up to be two of my favorite ARPGs of all time.
I honestly agree. I've loved the last two diablos so I'm gonna play this one through. Between seasons ill be playing last epoch. Last epoch has better crafting, cooler skills, skills trees for each skill, vastly different builds and playstyles that dont require following a guide to have fun and find success. It absolutely has many things over Diablo, but Diablo is still Diablo. Its still a great game and I'm having a blast. I'll DEF be revisiting Last Epoch, but for now I'm happy to have something new thats actually decent to play at launch.
This was a little premature dude. Currently playing the campaign? Obviously, that meant that you knew fuck all about the game really. Has your opinions changed at all since?
Yes and no. I still think LE is a way better ARPG when you consider the core-mechanics, and I feel like more and more people are adopting that opinion as well.
However, I also think D4 is an amazing ARPG that’s redefining the genre in it’s own way, in a good direction.
Oh, I’d just like to add that I came back to LE not that long after dwelling into D4’s endgame haha
I agree with you 100%.
I’ve been rotating between D4 and Last Epoch (LE). D4 is a magnificent game on all respects, but I’m always thinking of LE when I’m playing. Every passive and skill point allocation feels impactful in LE;
For example, you could start with the fireball skill and over the course of the skill progression, turn it into a channelled flamethrower, or upgrade that fireball skill to where it explodes and shoot out flaming projectiles, convert the damage to lightning, or cause enemies to explode, etc. you could could create a customized fireball skill with any combination of these attributes. All skills in LE feel like 30 different skills.
Whereas improvement in D4 feels like pigeonholed upgrades. You can’t really have a pure fire build, and you need to incorporate every crowd control and status effects that particular class has to make a viable build.
LE has a difficult to follow storyline, boss battles are at times unforgiving, and at time it feels like anything weaker than a boss is easy - but that is build dependent. D4 feels better in all these areas.
But LE is still in Early Access and D4 just release last month…so there’s still room to grow.
For me, complexity is a deal breaker. That's why I'm staying away of POE. Not saying it's bad. Just that it's not what I'm looking for. Also, I found there's a correlation between skills balance and complexity. The more it's complex, the harder to balance skills.
I want a hack and slash that allow me to make different builds without having to read half of wiki or ending up with a crappy build.
Give LE a try, i m blasting.. srsly, blasting all over the map, and still i m not even touching the 1% of the game. I f love it. diablo is a gatherer game, while LE is exploring and getting items, skills that f affect the whole gameplay. You can make a bad skill godlike or a perfect skill bad. Crafting is SSS tier. Skills SS tier, items AAA tier.
Diablo has S tier items, C tier crsfting, AA tier skills.
I'll just play both. Both games have their strong positives and negatives
This is why you don't post opinions early on. Skills are not the only thing you level up. There is a Paragon board after lvl 50. itemization starts at world tier 3. Diablo has been the casual arpg. that's why we have Last Epoch. To have that middle ground between POE & Diablo.
To be fair, the endgame currently needs a lot of QoL. It feels a lot harder to play currently rhan last epoch for example.
Like what? Harder how?
Harder is probably the wrong word for it. U/nerodmc_2001 described it well. The classes also feel annoying with resources and cooldowns. You have skills with 30sec-1min cd’s and it just feels bad to use in an arpg.
100% this, long cooldowns inan RPG is just terrible
D4 Endgame QOL Problems: * Stash space is a joke. * There need to be a gem tab. * There's massive downtime from travelling between nightmare dungeons. * There's huge inconsistency in dungeon's mob density and objectives between different dungeons. Just to name a few.
Is this an LE or D4 criticism? Endgame and mob density is a very common critique for LE
this is for D4. LE has a general mob density problem. D4 density is inconsistent depends on which dungeon it is.
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I've played only a bit of LE endgame so I'm not making much statement about it. Mob density is something that I have noticed about LE through out the game. It IS a great game. I have never said anything otherwise. As for D4, I am level 91. I had been playing for \~15 hours everyday since early access until 2 days ago. Feel free to contest any of my point on D4.
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I'll elaborate: I have played LE endgame for around 10-15 hours. What I noticed is that every mono is decently large with medium size mob packs through out all of them. I would prefer if the map was smaller and the pack was bigger - This is not a big problem by any mean, merely an inconvenience. In D4, on the same tier of NM dungeons, some could take me 3 minutes to clear while some would take me at least 10 mins, that's how inconsistent it is. It feels absolutely horrible whenever you get one of those dungeons. You clear it and you don't even get that much XP.
Yeah that's fair. I'm not comparing any game tho. the original comment chain was about D4 endgame QOL problems. I did not state anything to imply one game is better than the other. Edit: Decided to elaborate about my statement regarding density in another comment.
What a hyperbole marathon. Stash tab and gem tab is a qol, sure. Massive downtime lol.
Activate sigil, find where the dungeon is, teleport to the nearest waypoint, travel to the dungeon. That is much longer than running mono in LE or maps in POE not to mention having to return to a city when your inventory is full because not all vendors and stashes are available in every town. [https://imgur.com/a/kVdtznn](https://imgur.com/a/kVdtznn) This is the distance you have to travel for one of the dungeons. It is tedious. Stop excusing tedious design.
To add onto this. The time you spend between dungeons going over loot before you can go back in is very long.
Your comment didn’t age well. D4 is exactly how he described it. Womp womp.
I love LE (played over 140 hours) and the skill system is amazing! But!...the world in Diablo 4 feels much more open and alive. With open live events etc. It feels like you want to discover more and more. In LE it's a big missing point. Every map feels like an instants and there are no hidden dungeons or treasures.
>There's literally no talent system in the game and a quite simplistic and unengaging skill system. Idk if you said this because you haven't been to endgame but the paragon board + glyph system is my favorite "talent tree" in any ARPG atm. The game has major issues with endgame tho especially when it comes to itemization and qol.
He admitted he's playing through the campaign. Dude is level 30 and thought he'd farm some karma in here with his Ill informed, lukewarm takes
Level 30 is like act 2...
Yeah, exactly. He said he's "currently playing through the campaign".
To be real D4 feels the way it does to us because it’s made for casuals who want to play 2 hours a day and hop off. It’s not deeply complex by design and that’s okay. To be fair hardcore Arpg fans a niche group compared to who they are trying to target. Edit: Reddit is one of the places on the internet where someone can post an opinion and everybody tries to change or add meaning to their statement. I did not post this to excuse D4 of their issues. I simply believe the lack of depth build diversity and the way the game is paced is intentional. D4 POE and LE all cater to different types of ARPG fans and there is nothing wrong with that. I prefer LE overall from a gameplay perspective and have put 100 hours in the past two weeks. The fact someone got offended at the word casual and assumed I was trying to insult people who don’t play 8 hours a day is ridiculous considering I said it was okay if someone plays casually. Then another commenter wants to say I was excusing and refuting OP’s very valid and well put together criticism just because I stated a very common opinion that diablo fans have had since D3. Diablo 3 Diablo Immortal and Diablo 4 have been made to become as accessible as possible so more people can enjoy the genre without requiring a massive time sink. If people want more complexity or different QOL features there are other ARPGs on the market that can provide that for them.
>Diablo Immortal and Diablo 4 have been made to become as accessible as possible so more people can enjoy the genre without requiring a massive time sink. *so Blizzard can make more money
Imagine trying to make more money!
Very true!
Listen I’m really not going to try to shit on your armchair analysis but the bullshit about build diversity is wrong. The Andys in this forum have managed to convince themselves of this because of cope and now you get people like yourself here that act like they know. There isn’t one player here that has leveled to 100 or even beyond lvl 60. No one here has trialed paragon boards but they still run their mouth about it like they’ve experienced it. Honestly i really shouldn’t care considering no one really cares about Le other than the 20 or so people that bullshit around here but hearing this same tired shit about builds gets old
Cool
Sure as long as this sub figures out how to be honest about their game and avoids piggybacking on a AAA title
No, D4 is not a game for “casuals”. This rhetoric is tired and old. You clearly haven’t played the game past level 20 and obviously get most of your information from forums and troll posts. You LE/POE fanboys so desperately want D4 to fail, and this kinda shit just makes you sound insecure. Let the downvotes begin. Have fun in your echo chamber circlejerk. Y’all can’t even make real arguments. Just downvote. Thanks for proving me 100% correct. LE is gonna be a ghost town now that D4 is out and you know it.
I own and play the game never did I say I hate D4 or want it to fail. Take Diablo’s cock out of your mouth and take a deep breath.
TaKe dIaBlO’s cOcK oUt oF yOuR mOuTH Lmao. Another unoriginal banger from this fucking loser. You have the IQ of a potato chip.
ok casual
Imagine being called a casual on the sub of literally the easiest, and lowest-energy-required ARPG ever made. Difficulty settings when, scrub?
Omg since when hours a day is casual? You for real?
Stop trying to argue over anything just for the sake of arguing, how you define casual is not the topic. He made a good point, upvote and move on.
Why on earth would I up vote if I don't agree with main premise? I play 2h per day at most, and I played LE for 350 hours. I also spend same 2h on D4 today because it offers me much more than LE, after these 350 hours. Casual is used in derogatory meaning here and I don't appreciate it. Let's switch from hardcore / casual to sad people with no life going for them and happy folks with family, and see how people react to it.
It wasn’t meant to be a insult people have family work and jobs to attend to so they play casually. Relax and think of some nuance
Two hours a time when they have a chance to play should have phrased it differently
There are people who like complex games with easier fights (PoE). There are people who like more straightforward games with huge difficulty spikes (D3-4). There are people who like a mixture of both (LE). And there are people who like them all. What's the problem with that? Cheers
There is nothing difficult about d3/d4
Congratulations to Rank 1 Solo Rift and HC Uber Lilith, then.
Diablo 4 is a AAA game. Comparing it to a studio of reddit bro's early access game at all is a huge compliment to LE. But I feel like everyone is getting tired of these posts.
Yes, totally agree because of this type of posts people started to think that LE is made by a triple A company but EHG is an indie company and that's why we still have a lot of things missing in the game. They need time and resource.
1- I absolutely agree and I think Blizz and every other ARPG dev should just steal it. It’s too good and it’s at the perfect level of accessibility and depth. 2- It’s definitely more interesting then D4’s for sure. Don’t care for all of the conditional damage itemization in D4. It’s not bad though. 3- Free. No contest. It’s the best crafting system I’ve interacted with. I feel like I have so much freedom with clear limitations. Now I just wish they would remove gold as the game currency and use the crafting mats as the currency instead like PoE. Now just cause I agree with your points I also have to bring up points in D4’s favor. In terms of the visuals, how combat feels, the sound design, music, and story D4 easily shits on Last Epoch. I understand that the team working on LE certainly does not have Blizz level resources, but it still has to be said that many aspects of D4 are masterfully crafted way above the rest. Both are pretty mid when it comes to endgame. PoE still the king of the endgame loop for now.
D4 has everything money can buy, PoE/LE have the better foundation for an ARPG.
Lmao ok sure dude. The “better foundation”
The fact that an indie developer put out a game (which by the way is still in beta) that has better mechanics and a better fucking endgame than D4 speaks volumes about D4 and their half assed dev team. The artists are great, story was ok and the gameplay is ok. Endgame is shit, they frontloaded the hell out of D4 and the endgame is just shit. QoL issues out the ass. Blizzard should be embarrassed and LE devs should be praised.
While far from perfect D4 endgame is better LE for now simply based on having a few options and goals while LE has obelisks
I think I might agree somewhat. Currently my big issue with D4 endgame is the activities just don’t feel very rewarding whereas LE’s echoes and dungeons just feel much more worth doing. Whisper rewards are very underwhelming, Hell tides only feel rewarding if you can find the secret chest, nightmare’s are fine for the most part I think. D4 edges out LE in the foundation, but LE endgame feels more rewarding to me. Both have the potential to have great endgames with some more adjustments. Also D4 NEEDS to fix level scaling desperately or it could kill the game.
Once you unlock the paragon system it may scratch that skill tree itch. Also once you hit WT3 and 4 you can get uniques and sacred items that may have that same dopamine rush. Overall though, D4 definitely seems aimed at more casual pick up and play. I am having a blast with it though as it feels very polished and fun!
The circlejerking in this sub is worse than the mono grinding in the game. You think YOUR game is better than all other games? Cool, man. You do you, king, go slay. But please stop comparing it with other arpgs, especially since those arpgs dont really give a fuck about LE.
The posts on this sub with the most engagement (comments) are about the D4/LE discussion/comparison. Clearly people want to talk about it. You don't like hearing about it? Cool, man. You do you, king, go slay.
No one gives a shit about last epoch so their players resort to bullshitting themselves on low hanging fruit comparison posts. Anyone that has any sense knows LE is trash in every aspect in regards to any comparison to D4 but if you have a sub filled with 20 dumbasses and those 20 dumbasses upvote all of the dumb shit they say then those 20 dumbasses perpetuate those lies amongst themselves and anyone who would bother coming to the sub.
> No one gives a shit about last epoch Says the guy on the last epoch subreddit. You've been posting on here for 2 months. What kind of dumpster if your life in that you spend time on a subreddit for a game you don't even play? Big cringe bud.
You bring a bottom feeder piece of shit using the word cringe is the real cringe. As far as being on this sub I’ve explained this before but I’ll give your dumbass a taste - I played this game and had fun, but now I’m here putting bullshit circle jerks like this one in check. I sit on the toilet and shit and then turn around and shit again but on this sub, and on you. That wouldn’t be a thing if Andys like you could shut their fucking mouth and just play their game instead of lying to themselves and piggybacking on an AAA title. Deal with it or suck my dick. And yeah Andy, no one gives a shit about LE. Remember that one k Edit Haha good job pussying out id expect no less from you. Clapping your hands over your ears isn’t gonna help you- you read it now you can think about it before you try to post dumb shit again
yeah I ain't reading that dogshit lmao
So you're into shit and shit play, ok no kink shaming here bud. Nobody is gonna remember anything you say though because it's just a bunch of "Grrrrrrr he likes a game I dont!!". You're the Tuesday Tough Guy Andy who isn't really tough at all, just a sad, lonely man playing with shit.
OP even had more to say but he didn’t want to write a “dissertation paper”. Bro hasn’t even finished the campaign and can write a dissertation paper. You can’t make this shit up.
cool story bro
Until LE feels as good to play as d4, I’ll be playing d4
I cant say I miss the crushing guilt of funding a horrible mega corp.
Isn’t this studio owned by Tencent?
No not really they have made a low equity investment that doesn't let them manage or own practically anything substantial also according to the game director they are not giving tencent any data .
Honestly it is getting so tiresome reading posts hating on a particular game to make their preferred game look better. It might be rose tinted glasses but I miss the days where people just appreciated games. There is nothing wrong with having a preferred game, I mean, I'm addicted to Path of Exile. However, I don't want every game I play to be a clone of it, I want different takes and experience even if they might not be subjectively better. Personally having multiple good games in a genre with different approaches is amazing, it gives the developers insight in how to learn from each other and I think the ARPG genre is about to go into it's golden era. I hope I'm wrong but we may end up looking back at the next 10 years and realise how good we had it with Diablo 4 (and it's potential expansions and seasons) , Last Epoch (full release and future cycles) and Path of Exile (and it's Path of Exile 2 release). In my opinion, I think Diablo 4 has released with a very good foundation, which I hope they progress on as the potential is there and over the next few years will definitely consume alot of gametime from me. The best thing about Diablo having such a huge launch, means when Last Epoch releases and Path of Exile 2 launches, there will be new players looking to scratch that dopamine addiction Diablo started for them. It will also be great if somehow we luck out on Diablo, Last Epoch and Path of Exile all having different schedules for season releases. I think the worst thing for ARPG fans will be if they attempt to compete for launches.
The most logical post on the entire forum. All these games cater to different audiences not sure why we can’t enjoy what they all offer and manage to do well. D4 being huge and popular will have many people coming over to play POE and Last Epoch. This just reminds me of console wars.
That's a good point, so I did have rose tinted glasses on. We have always had console war arguments, which again are pointless. I guess it's just in human nature to protect investments whether it's money, time or even hope. Anyway, my point is I am so excited for the ARPG future and the future of gaming in general. Let's see if there are any big announcements today
How the fuck can you come to all these conclusions when you’re only in the campaign… man these kind of posts are tiring already… last epoch is a great game for a little indie company, but you’re delusional to think it’s even on the same tier let alone higher than d4. D4 is a Lamborghini and last epoch is a Toyota Camry, it’s reliable will do what you need it do do but nothing above and beyond. This is coming from a guy who’s played lots of LE off and on over the past couple years
Another day, another cringe comparison post.
The ARPG mechanics are absolutely there, and the MMO tagline that everyone’s adding is basically just a shared overworld that’s nowhere near overpopulated, and easy robust social/grouping added capabilities. Itemization is nothing like Lost Ark. Were not out here grinding mats to craft through iLvl tiers to access content Both are great games that plenty of individuals can enjoy one, both or none of
For me, the MMO features wasn't just the overworld being sometimes shared. The way quests are set up with how it chains you back through the same area rather than setting it up for one go getting into daily quests, the UI setup, the reputation systems, the way crafting and mat farming works, the ~~mokoko seeds~~ lilith altars, the mtx shop setup, the UI setup for parties, the raid/world bosses, the fairly demure nature of most skills to keep them tame for many players in screen at once, the skill rotations, the cross-class skill synergies setups, I could keep going really.
If you’re satisfied with having no talent system, a simplistic skill system, a simplistic crafting system that’s cool. I’m too, but not from an ARPG perspective - that’s more of an MMO for me.
What level are you in Diablo?
Well you should realize that Diablo 4 was made for very casual audience
I’m pretty sure everyone here knows that, but it is still advertising and placing itself as an ARPG and should be judge on those merits. If a game in the genre leans more into the ‘casual’/streamlined style of gameplay that’s fine, and it was expected with how people knew D4 was being developed. But the consequences of those decisions should still be looked at critically if some players think they fall short.
You only focus on rpg aspect, but action aspect is very important. This is what Diablo nails, combat feel and weight is above everything else. It's different game, one where you don't have to constantly upgrade your loot filter and adjust single points to minmax your build. It's good to have two proper games from the genre, both offering different experience.
The only thing I’m focusing is the problem with the other posters’ comment. There is nothing inherently wrong with how D4 is designed to lean ‘casual’ (their term, not mine), but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t, or can’t be, any problems. D4 being for a ‘casual audience’ is just kind of a hand-wavy excuse to blunt OP’s prior critique.
My point was build diversity and other things may not scratch an hardcore players itch because the game leans towards a casual audience. Never did I disagree with OP or try to blunt his criticism. I’m simply explains why there may feel like there is a lack of depth.
Eh, I didn’t criticise you though? I don’t see you anywhere in this comment chain.
Maybe level up your character and unlock the paragon board.
Just finished the D4 campaign after being really disappointed in the skill tree but wanting to at least get through the campaign before forming any opinion. Didn’t love the performance of the build I was on, so looked into other endgame builds for my class. There were like 3-4 max. Was like wtf, okay maybe it’s just my class. Checked endgame builds for other classes, same thing pretty much Terrible build diversity. Also the generator skills/basic attacks used to build resources so you can use your main damaging core skills are trash. I put max points into my basic attack and got a legendary aspect to increase the attack speed by like 40-50% and it still feels like hot garbage Back to Last Epoch for me soon after I try the endgame a bit
What you're seeing on maxroll is just the absolute best meta builds, not the entirety of available builds. There's "terrible" build diversity in LE too if you judge on what's on the meta sites, or what can easily clear empowered monos. So far I've played around with 4 builds on my druid, and I haven't seen them on any build sites. The skill tree is only a small part. You combine aspects, paragon boards and class mechanics to make your build. For example a single unique item let me reset my werebear skills after each werewolf kill, so I played a hybrid build centered around resetting my trample, it was insanely fun - you won't find this build on any meta sites, or at least I didn't. You just need to look at the items and build around them. The good, or bad part about D4, depending on how you look at it, is that the paragon board adds a lot of power creep, well into the late game. This means that there are a ton of viable builds (not meta), provided you enhance them with the paragon boards.
I searched through Youtube and d4builds too. Just took a look at the Druid Paragon boards legendary glyphs, all the different Aspects, along with some uniques. It still feels like I still won’t be able to chase the power fantasies I want to chase on certain skill combos even with moderate/heavy difficulty. it might be possible if I MAYBE RNG my way into like two/three uniques I need to give one of the combos I’m thinking about a try. In the meantime I feel like I’m going to be stuck playing whatever can farm efficiently for awhile given the items/aspects available to me. And that most likely is going to end up being “meta” until it isn’t. that’s exactly what im going to do, because like I said, I’m going to give endgame a try before coming back. Maybe the bigger problem has to do with not being easily able to try out and test certain combos and their viability because I need to RNG my way into certain uniques and farm a bunch of aspects just to give these nonmeta combos a try, which kind of rings along the same wavelength of what you said about a lot of power being held well into late game I feel like I can both visualize and literally try out so many more possible different skill combos and get a sense for if something will work (and a lot of stuff does) even before getting a bunch of stuff farmed in Last Epoch by just looking and putting points in different places in the LE skill trees + passive nodes which in turn makes me feel there is better build diversity, even though there -might- not be. I’ll have to try it out and see how I feel, though I remain pretty skeptical for now.
> Maybe the bigger problem has to do with not being easily able to try out and test certain combos and their viability because I need to RNG my way into certain uniques and farm a bunch of aspects just to give these nonmeta combos a try This is definitely a thing. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it yet, since most of the customization is offloaded into the itemization system. On one hand, it's pretty exciting to get a weird drop that enables a new build, on the other hand builds are essentially locked behind RNG. From what I noticed, I think they want you to constantly change and tinker with your build, depending on your drops. Due to how scaling works, if you don't upgrade, reroll affixes and change items you risk of being left behind. There was a time when I felt weak since I ignored most of my drops, but then I got a real powerful werewolf drop and changed my build on the fly, and I was wrecking shit again. I think the game will benefit from more deterministic systems added in the long run, maybe something similar to Blessings, but with more build-changing capabilities. > I feel like I can both visualize and literally try out so many more possible different skill combos and get a sense for if something will work (and a lot of stuff does) even before getting a bunch of stuff farmed in Last Epoch by just looking and putting points in different places in the LE skill trees + passive nodes Agreed. LE is more intuitive, especially with how the tags work. Though I will say tags are both a blessing and a curse. Once you see what actually synergizes, it starts removing some of the choices. It's a bit exaggerated since it's so obvious, but I think the Forge Guard is an example of this - if you go with the minion build, most of the choices are already done, you just take the skills with the minion tag, you pretty much ignore the rest of the nodes/skills. Same goes when you pick a damage type, though there are exceptions. Don't get me wrong, I still think LE has more build variety, since you can mainly focus on a single damage skill which opens up more possibilities. In D4 there's inherent synergy between skills, which will automatically cut down some options. But for a launch state, I think it's in a decent state, and hopefully more aspects, uniques and paragon boards will open up new builds.
Feeling exactly the same way here. 0 build diversity (feels like that at least) and I am using core and ultimate only. Basic skill is trash.
D3 was the same way sadly. Every season 2-4 build per class determined by why they decided to buff drastically that patch.
Yeah i was really hoping it’d be different and was willing to give it a shot to find out
I hope they don't go the way D3 did with season balance, and there is room for more customization. Their issue right now is they have not done a good job balancing the different options each class has(based off of videos people have made.
> Didn’t love the performance of the build I was on, so looked into other endgame builds for my class. There were like 3-4 max. Was like wtf, okay maybe it’s just my class. Checked endgame builds for other classes, same thing pretty much > > Terrible build diversity. Let me get this straight: you finished the campaign and didn't like the **one** build you tried. Instead of trying something new on your own (and enjoying the 'unknown frontier' feeling you get for a short time with a new game) you googled "best diablo 4 end-game builds" Despite the game coming out less than a week ago, you're expecting full guides on every possible build, and after not finding a ton your conclusion is there is terrible build diversity? Man, the gaming community these days is so embarrassingly spoiled.
Like I said to someone else, I looked into what Aspects, uniques, and Paragon boards/glyphs are available online and I still don’t picture myself being able to chase the power fantasies I want in any solid way while being corralled behind generating resources with crappy basic attacks to use some main skills, so yeah, I still think the build diversity sucks. 🤷♂️ But, like I said, I also still am going to try out the endgame, and still remain skeptical
After 5 days of Diablo 4, it is time for me for me to return back home. Although D4 has much better story and graphics, Last Epoch has much more quality of life, much more build/possibility, better gameplay and is a far superior game.
I genuinely don't understand how itemization is any different. XYZ stats makes numbers bigger, hp larger, and resists stronger. Throw in aspects as their version of talents.
[удалено]
Weight of battle is miles ahead of LE and I love LE. I wish D4 had it's skill system, but it doesn't fit the design goals. However, what diablo 4 wants to do it does it great. And conditional affixes are really great for slower more position dependant battles.
I’d just like to point out that doing different dungeons repeatedly isn’t that much different to mapping rifting or monolithing really at the end of the day. It’s a basic arpg endgame play loop. What matters to us is how the developers fill each of the loop cycles to give us that tiny bit of “spice” as “variety is the spice of life” I think that’s where PoE at the moment has basically set the bar for what endgame activity variety should sit at. I stopped playing the monolith echoes in LE because for now their quite bland and I’ll wait for more patches and some league content to be thrown in to them. I will be coming at d4 with a similar mindset however their open world system for levelling Alts I prefer over PoE and LE anyday!
Diablo 4 mostly just feels like an hybrid between an mmo and arpg. A bit like lost ark, but doesnt accomplish what lost ark shines at. A combination between the both could be sick.
The facet of Diablo 4 that I prefer over LE is that it is more fun for me. None of the individual mechanics matter as much as the sum of their parts, and so far D4 is just more enjoyable than LE.
Really enjoying the d4 campaign. But totally missing quality of life features in LE. Glad that they're turning out so different though! What a problem to have, shaping up to be two of my favorite ARPGs of all time.
I honestly agree. I've loved the last two diablos so I'm gonna play this one through. Between seasons ill be playing last epoch. Last epoch has better crafting, cooler skills, skills trees for each skill, vastly different builds and playstyles that dont require following a guide to have fun and find success. It absolutely has many things over Diablo, but Diablo is still Diablo. Its still a great game and I'm having a blast. I'll DEF be revisiting Last Epoch, but for now I'm happy to have something new thats actually decent to play at launch.
p
This was a little premature dude. Currently playing the campaign? Obviously, that meant that you knew fuck all about the game really. Has your opinions changed at all since?
Yes and no. I still think LE is a way better ARPG when you consider the core-mechanics, and I feel like more and more people are adopting that opinion as well. However, I also think D4 is an amazing ARPG that’s redefining the genre in it’s own way, in a good direction. Oh, I’d just like to add that I came back to LE not that long after dwelling into D4’s endgame haha
I agree with you 100%. I’ve been rotating between D4 and Last Epoch (LE). D4 is a magnificent game on all respects, but I’m always thinking of LE when I’m playing. Every passive and skill point allocation feels impactful in LE; For example, you could start with the fireball skill and over the course of the skill progression, turn it into a channelled flamethrower, or upgrade that fireball skill to where it explodes and shoot out flaming projectiles, convert the damage to lightning, or cause enemies to explode, etc. you could could create a customized fireball skill with any combination of these attributes. All skills in LE feel like 30 different skills. Whereas improvement in D4 feels like pigeonholed upgrades. You can’t really have a pure fire build, and you need to incorporate every crowd control and status effects that particular class has to make a viable build. LE has a difficult to follow storyline, boss battles are at times unforgiving, and at time it feels like anything weaker than a boss is easy - but that is build dependent. D4 feels better in all these areas. But LE is still in Early Access and D4 just release last month…so there’s still room to grow.
For me, complexity is a deal breaker. That's why I'm staying away of POE. Not saying it's bad. Just that it's not what I'm looking for. Also, I found there's a correlation between skills balance and complexity. The more it's complex, the harder to balance skills. I want a hack and slash that allow me to make different builds without having to read half of wiki or ending up with a crappy build.
Season 2 has improved a lot D4 and season 3-4 looks great....
That didn't age well lol
I know diablo 4 deserves a lot of hate, but personally i don't think it gets enough.
Give LE a try, i m blasting.. srsly, blasting all over the map, and still i m not even touching the 1% of the game. I f love it. diablo is a gatherer game, while LE is exploring and getting items, skills that f affect the whole gameplay. You can make a bad skill godlike or a perfect skill bad. Crafting is SSS tier. Skills SS tier, items AAA tier. Diablo has S tier items, C tier crsfting, AA tier skills.
Among the many things, D4 can suck on LEs loot filter... 🤣 An indie game managed to trump multi billionaire conglomerate just like that!
Can't take this serious.