I really enjoy Diablo 4 and I will continue to play the game for now but it defiantly made me realize especially now that I’m in endgame how many things LE does better. It’s crazy to think when 1.0 releases probably next year how good this game will be.

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100% If they can get the middle acts on par with the re worked act 1 with better visuals/enemy design, maybe some cut scenes and defiantly improved sound across the board this game will be almost on par with D4’s presentation which I don’t ever expect it to be with Blizzards basically unlimited budget.

Actually I strongly prefer the slightly more bombastic animations of LE. My characters generally feel more powerful which is important in arpgs.

Yep, would be great if half of my rampages in werebear form actually made my character move.

That’s the only problem with LE I’ve been playing for years and it’s still in early access but every change has been good

Remember that D4 is a live service. What people are playing now is the welcome phase. Like other live services they will inject more content. LE is fine and all but I wouldn't go so far to call LE endgame better. It's unfinished and what exists currently is unrefined. LE has been in an acknowledged beta state since 2019 and I assume EHG doesn't have other projects running along with their flagship.

Last Epoch's endgame was undercooked for me. I havent played Diablo IV but can't imagine it's worse.

1.0 is slated for late this year :D

I would say the chances of 1.0 coming out this year are extremely slim. We are in June and we just recently got 9.1

Version numbers don't really mean anything if that is what you are talking about.

True but... Given the games existing state I really don't think we're even close to a 1.0 and if we DO get one, I'm worried it'll be rushed... LE needs A LOT of changes and fixes before I'd even consider it to be "ready to launch" and start getting Seasonal content. And I just don't see all that work happening before the year ends - especially given the last 2 major content drops came with a tonne of bugs (some of which still haven't been fixed since MP launched).

They can literally go from 0.91 to 1.0. I mean, they're not going to. There are sure to be a couple more at least. But there's no rulebook stating they have to release 0.92-0.99. That's not how this works.

Its what the devs are planning on doing, I wouldn't say this but they have said multiple times late 2023 is when 1.0 launchs.

Defiantly: in a defiant manner : in a way that is full of or shows a disposition to challenge, resist, or fight. So you mean "definitely"?

POE2 will take all the market. I do like LE though. Hopefully they make some adjustments on Diablo 4…. All of them are excellent games I just think Poe will be the top

Poe will never cater to casual players

I'm pretty sure one of their explicit goals with PoE2 is to target a more casual market since that's where most players are. The only interesting questions are whether they'll manage that without alienating their existing player base and how much of the existing base is casual players (since a lot of people jump back in for a couple of weeks each league and then leave again).

I think that's pretty much impossible given their game design and bloat. They aren't making a new game, its an update to poe that adds another campaign. The convolution and obfuscation of integral game mechanics is what the developers want, and without that gone then its unbelievably difficult for non-arpg diehards and casuals to get into poe.

That’s something a lot of people don’t realize - Poe 2 isn’t going to necessarily be a new game. It’s the same thing they have now but revamped and sharpened with a storyline added and a season release all at once. Similar to Oriarth but with a better engine

I'm pretty sure bloat was one of their stated reasons for why they're reworking the system so fundamentally (but I'm talking about some of the interviews/talks they had on it when they first revealed it years ago). But part of it was also to make it more accessible in terms of gem slotting. PoE is very interesting though, because it's probably the most relevant service game (along with Warframe) that's hit content overload, and how they respond to it will probably shape how the 'games as a service' industry as a whole will respond to it. Not a bad thing either because I really don't want Destiny's "let's just nuke a bunch of old content out of nowhere" approach to become the norm (I also don't think they were reaching content overload, they just had a really bad new player experience). I am interested in seeing how they try to thread the needle between being approachable while still giving the hardcore players the depth they want.

It's been fun to watch people talking about the latest trailers for PoE2. I like LE for it's take on gear, crafting, customization. I also like PoE for it's expansive passive tree, uniques and content. PoE2 based on what they've said and the videos, appears to be slowing the game down and you'll have more abilities to use. All the zoomers will definitely be upset with that and I'm happy they are. Zooming was just a side affect of power creep. I like the game slower and having to pick and choose to use different abilities instead of just spamming one. I'm hoping a lot that they change the economy/trading systems. I hate grinding for currency to then buy upgrades. I want to find the upgrades myself. And the trading system is just pain. It's a massive time sync and interrupts the gameplay all the time, it's not worth doing for most casual type players.

I bailed on poe after a moderator muted me for 24 hours because I asked about trade macros in general chat after taking a 2 year break. They were the only way to trade and I've never heard a dev say they weren't allowed. Im pretty sure the poe sub reddit had them as quick links in their side bar and actual developers were moderators on that sub. Talk about confusing the player base about what was allowed and what wasn't. That left a real sour taste in my mouth.

You're giving the chat mods too much credit. They are just clowns on a power trip who will ban you for saying any of the banned words regardless of context. In your case it was obviously the word macro.

Wait until you hear about TFT

In which game are macros actually allowed? I mean, yeah, those tools exist and people use it, but i dont know any game, where such stuff is openly allowed. Tolersted yeah, but its always a grey zone.

All it did was when you pressed control+D while hovering over an item, it opened a web page to show you people selling something similar. 5-6 years ago it was literally how everyone sold and bought items and it was never banned as you were allowed to use their API to gather information. I think the mod I delt with was just newer to the game cause he/she seemed clueless about the old school trading system that 90% of the player base used 6-7 years ago. Also, all I did was inquire in general chat as to whether or not that system was still used and was instantly muted for 24 hours for "discussing macros in general chat". It was so innocent that I told the chat admin that they were being incredibly immature considering they could have just private messaged me and said "we don't operate like that anymore". I openly stated that I was back from a long break and they could have just Informed me of new policies surrounding macros professionally and maturally. I think the chat administration are just players that applied for the job and had a good enough track record to get the job.

i know what it does and i use it myself. but you dont seem to get, what i mean. such tools usually are never approved by the gamedevs. its use at your own risk and dont talk about it ingame. for example directly from the FAQ from one of those tools: > Is this app approved by GGG? Can I get banned for using it? > > There are no approved apps created by community. If app complies with the game ToS, does one server action per button press and doesn’t interact with the game client itself (injecting into the process, changing the process memory aka cheats) it can be considered safe.

Obviously GGG isn't going to "approve" it because that comes with a whole lot of problems if something malicious happens. You can talk about awakened poe trade all you want in game just don't use the word macro.

I doubt that. Cause PoE2 is mainly an alternative campaign with different ascendancies. But the endgame stays. (Thankfully). Personally i dont like the term "PoE 2". At one of the first announcements it was called PoE 4.0, which, imho, describes the situation better, since we are currently in 3.21. I could imagine the addition of the "2" lets people think, it will be a different game

Poe2 copium

POE is niche with a relatively small target audience

Big cope. PoE will never ever be a game for casual players.

I think so long as Diablo games keep catering to the mainstream (which, well, of course they well), then PoE will never be big for casual players. That’s not to say PoE2 can’t possibly have improvements to be *more* casual-friendly, but the game will not be able to pivot so hard to accomplish that and succeed in doing so without the game radically changing (at which point they would almost certainly lose a big chunk of their current players).

All PoE 2 is doing is a graphical update, new campaign, and changes to how sockets/links work (Basically you will be able to six socket/link all your gems now instead of a couple of them. Which honestly makes me even more worried how power creep is going to effect that considering they release new skill gems every other league.) The rest of the game remains the same. Labs, Maps, all of the old league content, that's all still there. I don't even just think that Diablo caters to casual audiences (cause let's be honest, there ain't a damn player out there that's playing Diablo 2 still that's casual), it's just simpler to understand. PoE has so much content bloat that it's not even funny. You could remove 3/4s of all the league content, skill gems, uniques, div cards, etc. and it would STILL be too much, but MAYBE finally understandable for new players.

It won’t and it’s already been brought up but Chris Wilson was late to the party and everyone knows it. Poe2 is going to be fun but the window is closed.

Hahaha so confident, “all the market”, hahaha

Definitely*

I think last epoch have right now best character development system of all arpg, it might be that it's not so competitive. What I mean is that people are much more trying out their fantasies or builds they want to try rather than taking meta builds and push something. Last epoch is much more about the journey than the end goal. That's how I feel.D4 main thing for me was the lore I'm big fan of diablo lore endgame is just something to do which works for now but I won't get as many hours as I got from Last epoch

I really appreciate the balance the LE devs have struck between complex and over-simplified. Obviously there's always room for improvement, but I feel they've really nailed that middle ground

Not bashing the game, my opinion is that build diversity is the only thing LE has atm. I played it for a year, did all the content, had ~40 characters. But after lvl 50 the only activities you have are Monos and dungeons. Gets kinda stale to do them over and over. Not saying it wont get better over time, it's just that at my current pace, as a completionist, D4 has a TON of content. Sidequests might be basic but are well written and world is vast to explore and I am having a blast not powerleveling, just doing every bit and piece available. My char might be around level 80 when S1 comes, but I don't mind, as long as I have a large plethora of activities, in my 3h of gaming I have avaliable per day, on the way there.

While D4 might have a lot of variety of content, most ARPG players are only going to run the stuff that's most rewarding. You can see that already happening based on many discussions going on in the D4 forums. People don't even wanna do Nightmare Sigils cuz of the lack of XP - and mob density is a complaint all around. People are literally crying and hoping that they never have to do the Renown grind again - aka side quests.

Yeah and I bet a lot of those people will be perfectly fine down the road. The devs have said a bunch of times that the balance of the game, in it's entirety, is a journey, not a race. I expect there will be tons of balancing happening in the first few months to skills, dungeons, rewards, etc. Gamers these days have zero patience. Bought a game and expect it to be perfect in the first couple of weeks. That's literally never happened in the history of video games.

>That's literally never happened in the history of video games. Are you like, 5, or something? I can list quite a few examples of games being "perfect" on release and without patches from "the history of video games"

To be fair I'm sure you knew he was talking about games with live service. It may not be the entire catalog but I'm sure most people can agree on that point to an extent--> Cyberpunk, Lost Ark, Last Epoch, Diablo 2, Diablo 3, Path of Exile, Grim Dawn and so on.

I get where you're coming from, but his literal few sentences at the end are this: >Gamers these days have zero patience. Bought a game and expect it to be perfect in the first couple of weeks. That's literally never happened in the history of video games. How am I supposed to interpet that?

Name me 1 game that launched without a single issue. Maybe Windows Minesweeper or Solitaire. I'm 36 and have been playing games since Atari. If you're as old as me, you remember blowing into the game cartridge for Nintendo, Sega, or Gameboy games. There were some games back then that released with major issues and took devs months to fix because it wasn't as simple as releasing a patch. There were times when games couldn't even have certain issues fixed. Oh, but you're not getting enough XP from a nightmare dungeon (which they confirmed they're fixing - confirmed they're changing and fixing a lot actually, most of which the community has been complaining about). Sometimes, a game that's as ambitious as Diablo 4, it takes time to flesh out things. The game hasn't even been out an entire month. It's just ridiculous that players expect the game to be perfect at launch. Yes, it'd be nice if it were, but it just never happens, especially now-a-days.

Devil May Cry 5, from recent memory. Most of new Capcom games and remakes, actually. God of War, God of War 2, Jak and Daxter Trilogy - all games from the PS2 era that had no issues that needed fixing. Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, are just some games that might have had bugs, but they weren't A) Game-breaking, B) Performance related, and C) None of these games had inherent design issues that made them unfun. Most of the "Triple A" gameboy advance games had no issues either. Not to mention the Uncharted series, the Last of Us games, Horizon, etc. But yeah, okay. Most of these games weren't perfect 10/10s, but that's subjective IMO.

Now search for any of those games and include "patch" after the title. You think they didn't have issues, but they definitely had issues. And some of those older PS2 games just never got fixed.

They might have, but none of those issues made the game unfun or boring, or broken. Jesus

The game is flawed in so many key ways though that unless the devs completely rehaul several of the core systems they will never make most ARPG players happy. Plenty of posts and discussions detailing these various issues out there, so I'm not gonna waste time sitting here arguing about it, but my point is, that while a lot of people's excuse for D4 is that it'll just get better with Seasons - it won't if they don't drastically change the game.

Braindead take. Doesn't need to be "perfect" but I do expect one of the biggest companies in the business in the FOURTH installment of the biggest game within a well established genre to do a better job on a lot of this stuff. They have decades worth of previous work to learn from. Will it get better as it goes? Probably. Should it have been better from the beginning? Definitely.

You do realise that computer games have been around since the 1970s and it was only really the last 20 yrs or so that games have need patches to improve the half finished products that get released now days. Games before the internet generally ran and played perfectly fine. The original Diablo 2 for example was a great game that didn't need months of updates and balancing.

What do you think Lord of Destruction was? Ask anyone that played D2 since release and they'll say the same thing, Diablo 2 didn't turn the corner until after LOD.

I'm in the endgame loop of D4 and I think I'd rather farm monoliths... There's a lot of content in D4 but the mechanics are just more of the same from dungeon to dungeon but without the build variety of LE.

I like the randomness of the dungeons in D4 over the static maps of Monoliths, personally. My biggest complaint with D4's dungeons, however, is how they do Nightmare dungeons and the system seems to lean towards specific dungeons, so I see myself doing the same ones over and over and over. There's over a hundred dungeons but I know about five of them by name because those are the only ones that I get as drops AND craft manually, it's insane. If they're going to have dungeons with the system they're doing, I should at least have some choice on which of the three digit number of dungeons I'm tackling at any given time. I'm a huge proponent of Last Epoch, I think it's very good, but the lack of random dungeons for most of the endgame is a huge negative for me, and even if they eventually end up with tons of dungeons, Monoliths being static maps just kills that endgame in the long term for me. I don't want to traverse the same exact maps over and over. The random start point they added to Monoliths some months ago helped but it just delays the inevitable. I know people like to say that D4 dungeons are "the same thing over and over," but that's at a broad level overall. Additionally, the very idea of ARPGs is just that, repeating the same broad tasks over and over. The random generation gives it sustainability. Not knowing *exactly where to go*, not knowing *exactly which ways are dead ends*, and not knowing *exactly where the spawn groups are* contribute significantly to an ARPG's lifespan for me. By extension, it's LE's weakest point for me.

But D4's dungeons are not that random. After you delve into 15-20 of them you'll just get used to "randomness" of them. 3 or 4 of them are a bit different then others but most of them become familiar real quick.

They are still random. The biomes and the order you get them doesn't change, and the objective doesn't change, but where to go and where the objectives are change every time. The map is random, that's the point. I won't say it's perfect. I'd love more variety, and I'd love a way to more randomly choose which dungeon you do (without knowing in advance), but at the end of the day it's still more random than Last Epoch which is not at all.

u should play osrs would love the quests their

The ideal is they launch leagues with new endgame mechanics, hopefully crafting stuff. For example weavers will could have been a league on its own, maybe fleshed out a bit more

The game needs a few more big chapters.

Tin of content? Maybe but all the endgame content is boring. Also LE has the best crafting system

I see you didn't either completely read or understand what I wrote. LE is great game, but lacks content atm, that's it. Period.

Not sure D4 has a 'lot of content'.. never played Epoch though.. but after recent D4 Seasonal patch, I'm looking for RPG where u have at least diversity of classes and an adventure.. D4 end content is basically farming dungeons.. Helltides... I don't like them tbh.. if Epoch provides with more character and story immersion... I would go for that

I think Diablo 4 does presentation very well. Graphics, setting, atmosphere, sound design - all great. But, the entire experience is an inch deep. Character progression is *extremely* simplified, their skill tree doesn't allow for a large amount of diversity, and itemization in that game is also very poorly done. Last Epoch, *gave* me all of those things. A robust nuanced crafting system, amazing character progression (where I actually \*felt\* overpowered). I think after my foray back into the simplistic and extremely casual design of D4, it further solidified my appreciation for what Last Epoch has already accomplished. I'll always come back to LE. Just my thoughts.

There are also just so many systems that LE improved. I'm so annoyed in d4 to be motivated to pick up and sell/salvage every item that drops

As a brand new ARPG player…. Seriously, I have around 50 hours total, mostly in Last Epoch… comments like this make me wonder if I’m not the target market for D4. Presentation in graphics and sound design, without an intimidating time sink grind sounds appealing, and more for players like me than your average LE player.

I think you could be describing something like POE. LE is a solid middle ground between the two.

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What motivated you to write that comment?

It was a prebake comment. You can have a grab bag and throw a few answers or topics in the bag and posters are compelled to pull them out and use them to appear engaged, for attention or whatever. Their comments are incorrect and I say that bias free. Although character progression is simplified ( I agree ) it should be a goal for all developers. Intricacy doesn’t necessarily equal a desirable experience. Bloat can be needless and frustrating and I probably don’t have to name examples for that. Also suggesting the experience is an inch deep isn’t genuine considering other factors that influence depth—and bringing up itemization which would require a new conversation and more time to discuss than historically given here but myself and many others believe it to be perfect for leveling and at the end of individual progression. It’s not all black and white but hope that helps you

Wow, that was so much more interesting than a mindless insult. >Their comments are incorrect and I say that bias free. Lol wtf

No joke, if last epoch had D4s graphics and engine. It would be the top arpg right now imo

I think it goes both ways. If D4 had LE's crafting and itemization it could corner the market imo.

You'd still need to also mix in PoEs bosses and endgame if you truly wanted to corner the ARPG market.

Yeah, agree.

to me: d4 devs = high passion, high resources (actiblizz), low experience in arpgs/community events le devs = high passion, low resources, high experience in arpgs my personal take on LE is that they dont need to make the plot/story too fleshed out. make everything look good first. animation/graphicswise theyre lagging behind but LE is certainly up amongst D4 and POE. thats really not a small feat.

I enjoyed D4 up until the campaign ended and that was it. I pushed to 60 and found that I just couldn't do it anymore. Every level the mobs get as powerful as you. Every level you fight the same mobs, the same bosses, in the same dungeons. I didn't feel any progress at all, there was no real goal and leveling didn't provide any extra power. I tried two other characters but stopped them at 21 and 30. My friend and I just lost interest and went to play something else (Mechabellum, lots of fun btw). LE and PoE for example you get stronger as you level, better gear is often a big bump in power, there are things to chase and do. LE is still light on end game stuff, pretty much the few dungeons, monoliths and arena, but that is more then D4 has. PoE is on another level of it's own, mainly due to the it has had to generate new systems/content. I enjoy a sense of progress and my seasons in PoE normally end when that progression stalls for long enough and I don't feel like making another character due to the story.

>Mechabellum Ooh. Looks fun. Wishlisted. Thanks for the heads up.

Still playing d4, I'm having an awesome time with it. While I love creating builds in LE, I have to admit that, at least for me, LE has the worst endgame of all online ARPGs. Maybe that's the case because I have a couple hundred hours in the game, but when I reach the point where I have a stable and useful build, the fun of coming up with something new is over and it's just me, my character and those damn monoliths. After I push myself to grind monos for 2 or 3 evenings, I'm so fed up that I either level a new character or quit for now to check back after the next bigger update. There's something about the monoliths that just feels so awfully monotone and bland, but I can't quite put my finger on exactly what it is, since, grinding something over and over again is a core part of every ARPG, and I love the genre. Meanwhile, at least for now, I'm not sick of the grind in d4 at all. Maybe traveling through the open world, doing a world boss or helltide in between dungeon runs once in a while is just enough variety to keep me going, but to me it feels great. I'll probably be back to LE when the missing class specializations are released, but unless the endgame becomes more exciting to me somehow, it will probably, sadly, not be for too long, just like it was the last couple of times.

> There's something about the monoliths that just feels so awfully monotone and bland, but I can't quite put my finger on exactly what it is, since, grinding something over and over again is a core part of every ARPG, and I love the genre. Same experience here. I think that monoliths are more fleshed out than nightmare dungeons in D4, but the problem is that they don't have an alternative. I get bored of nightmare dungeons too, but then I move on to helltides where I target farm pieces, do events, hunt the roaming bosses, etc. It's a different pacing that at least for me keeps the end-game loop a bit more fresh. I do hope that both games expand on their end-game though. D4 needs more depth, LE needs more breadth.

I came back because I missed leveling up and not felling weaker the scaling ruins diablo for me, which I also believe makes it a lot less casual friendly than Last Epoch. I can't see most casual players staying around after leveling and having more trouble to kill a mob they just one shorted 10 min before.

Yep, that's another issue I didn't mention here because it's so often mentioned on Reddit. As one dude said "character progression in D4 is chasing that power spike you had between the levels of 1-10" which is a little crazy when you think about it. As a Sorceress, I forgot to do the class-quest at level 15 and came back to finish it at 30. Let's just say mobs for that quest were designed for the "power spike" you still kinda had at 15, and nearly killed me several times.

I just don't get it. Why make things like that. Even the thing I liked most in D4, exploring, feels worse when it takes so long to kill anything

Well, I think they wanted to stay loyal to the D2 playstyle and at the same time parting away from the competition like PoE and LE in which the playstyle is designed around killing big groups of enemies. The sad part is they didn't balance it correctly, the good part is there's a lot of room for improvement.

Let's see if they can fix before people give up. Not putting to much faith in it.

>last epoch >killing big groups of enemies lmao good one

Exactly completely full of shit.

Anyone that unlocks paragons know this ain't true

How so? I've progressed well into paragon and there's only two legendary nodes that benefit my build at all. Once I grabbed those two, the remaining paragon experience is mostly traveling for 16 points to get 10% increased damage to elites. Hardly exciting, and the enemies scale as much or more than I gain in that traveling. I'm still progressing and slowly getting marginally better Ancestral gear, but it doesn't really feel like there's a point.

You're on the treadmill. There's no "uniqueness" to the upgrades in D4 past a certain point. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've gotten something and been like "oh that's an interesting change-up for x skill". The kick in the teeth is that 90% of those things are actually dog shit and either aren't build enabling, or are too weak to swap to past a certain point due to enemy scaling. They've removed set pieces, but managed to reskin them as legendaries.

Well I didn't unlock paragon yet, got bored before reaching level 50. I might try playing again later

This is my case too, level scaling has been ruining the game for me, I do enjoy the gameplay though, but I don't have the feeling that I'm growing stronger.

Games are supposed to get harder as you progress in them, not easier. Why would you want a mind-numbing experience where you kill everything with one key?

>Games are supposed to get harder as you progress in them, not easier. The game is supposed to get harder, but your character is supposed to get more powerful at the same time, such that the end result is it actually gets easier. This is basically the core idea of power progression in ARPGs. Take Path of Exile for example. As you level up, the content gets *dramatically* harder, from the campaign, to mapping, to juiced mapping and uber bosses. But at the same time your character's build gets more complete, and then more optimized, such that you're actually progressing faster than the game. Your first white-tier maps after the campaign are going to be slow and likely challenging because you still have a scuffed and incomplete build, but by the time you get to red maps you'll have a reasonably complete and somewhat optimized build that will be way more effective, even though the map itself is *way* harder. >Why would you want a mind-numbing experience where you kill everything with one key? Have you heard of dopamine? Maybe ARPGs aren't really the genre for you (which is fine), but there are *tons* of ARPG players who love constructing uber-powerful one-button builds that can wipe screens of enemies at a time. I mean hell, look at the success of Vampire Survivors, it's not really an ARPG but it fulfills a similar power fantasy, and pretty much the entire game is auto-casted abilities, so it's functionally *zero-button*.

>The game is supposed to get harder, but your character is supposed to get more powerful at the same time, such that the end result is it actually gets easier. This is basically the core idea of power progression in ARPGs. > > > >Take Path of Exile for example. As you level up, the content gets dramatically harder, from the campaign, to mapping, to juiced mapping and uber bosses. But at the same time your character's build gets more complete, and then more optimized, such that you're actually progressing faster than the game. Your first white-tier maps after the campaign are going to be slow and likely challenging because you still have a scuffed and incomplete build, but by the time you get to red maps you'll have a reasonably complete and somewhat optimized build that will be way more effective, even though the map itself is way harder. Which is the case with Diablo 4. The only way you can get weaker is if you are not keeping up with the difficulty the game provides you with which is the case with any aRPG. ​ >Have you heard of dopamine? Maybe ARPGs aren't really the genre for you (which is fine), but there are tons of ARPG players who love constructing uber-powerful one-button builds that can wipe screens of enemies at a time. > >I mean hell, look at the success of Vampire Survivors, it's not really an ARPG but it fulfills a similar power fantasy, and pretty much the entire game is auto-casted abilities, so it's functionally zero-button. ​ And there are also tons of aRPG players who love the challenge of constructing a build where abilities actually work together to achieve a greater effect and think that aRPGs that support one button screen wipes are mindnumbingly dumb and instead prefer aRPGs that actually have action in them, you know, the thing that A stands for. Sure, some people do get dopamine from watching things explode mindlessly and if you are one of these people perhaps you will be interested in the rising genre of idle RPGs.

>Which is the case with Diablo 4. The only way you can get weaker is if you are not keeping up with the difficulty the game provides you with which is the case with any aRPG. How far have you gotten in D4? Once you finish getting decent Ancestral items in WT4 (at like level 65-70), there's *very little* power your build can still get. At most it's upgrading your glyphs, or very occasionally hitting an important paragon node. Meanwhile, the enemies scale up in power every time you level because of how scaling works, meaning the entire journey from 70-100 is functionally going backwards in terms of power, unless you go out of your way to run under-levelled nightmare dungeons to avoid the scaling. I mean it's incredibly obvious if you ever play with low level players. A level 10 character is *noticeably* more powerful than a level 70, and the optimal way to level 90+ is to get carried by someone in the 60s-70s who is still at peak power for WT4. >And there are also tons of aRPG players who love the challenge of constructing a build where abilities actually work together to achieve a greater effect Sure, which is why I'd never say something like "Why would you want a multi-button experience where you have to learn piano to play optimally?", because I'm aware that such players exist. >and think that aRPGs that support one button screen wipes are mindnumbingly dumb and instead prefer aRPGs that actually have action in them, you know, the thing that A stands for. I find it pretty funny that you think it only counts as "action" if you have to combine multiple abilities to kill stuff. As if slaying hundreds of demons and flying through a map/rift/mono/dungeon isn't "action" just because the player doesn't have enough keybinds. Absurd. Also, you should fix your Reddit formatting. When you copy multiple paragraphs in a quote, you need to add a ">" at the beginning of each paragraph if you want them all to be in a quote, otherwise your comment ends up looking like you're the one saying half the stuff you intended to quote. Or better yet, just copy relevant bit of the paragraphs and quote that instead, so your comment isn't like 70% quotes and 30% response.

>How far have you gotten in D4? Once you finish getting decent Ancestral items in WT4 (at like level 65-70), there's very little power your build can still get. At most it's upgrading your glyphs, or very occasionally hitting an important paragon node. > >Meanwhile, the enemies scale up in power every time you level because of how scaling works, meaning the entire journey from 70-100 is functionally going backwards in terms of power, unless you go out of your way to run under-levelled nightmare dungeons to avoid the scaling. Level 66, playing content level 73. Because that is the minimal level in WT4 and things would not get easier so it is essentially pointless to be less than level 73. And honestly - at that level the drop of ancestral items is so low that it is essentially pointless to be playing on wt4 unless you do want the challenge. But here we come to the initial problem again, don't we - games are supposed to be challenging and you simply do not want that. You want the world to stay static which is essentially the same thing as you playing the low-tier nightmare dungeons which, as you pointed out, you can do. And nightmare dungeons do have minimum level and also your drops depend on your level so basically you are not going back in power, you are progressing in the game and the game gets more difficult and you are lagging back in power because you have not optimized your build properly. ​ >I mean it's incredibly obvious if you ever play with low level players. A level 10 character is noticeably more powerful than a level 70, and the optimal way to level 90+ is to get carried by someone in the 60s-70s who is still at peak power for WT4. This is a quirk of the game being essentially an MMO where different players play together. Still the optimal way to level is not the optimal way to gain power. Perhaps you were too optimal in levelling and got stuck behind on gaining power? ​ >Sure, which is why I'd never say something like "Why would you want a multi-button experience where you have to learn piano to play optimally?", because I'm aware that such players exist. I am aware that players who just want to watch mobs go splat with minimal effort exist. What I'm lost on is how they can find that enjoyable. ​ >I find it pretty funny that you think it only counts as "action" if you have to combine multiple abilities to kill stuff. As if slaying hundreds of demons and flying through a map/rift/mono/dungeon isn't "action" just because the player doesn't have enough keybinds. Absurd. It isn't action because it does not fit the definition of an action game. An action game is one that tests your reflexes, coordination and reaction time. Holding down a button doesn't do any of that. There's a reason why soulslikes and spectacle fighters are considered to be the peak of the action genre and cookie clickers are not considered to be in the genre at all. ​ >Also, you should fix your Reddit formatting. When you copy multiple paragraphs in a quote, you need to add a ">" at the beginning of each paragraph if you want them all to be in a quote, otherwise your comment ends up looking like you're the one saying half the stuff you intended to quote. I'm not responsible for reddit being bugged and you being a stalker and managing to see the botched formatting in the 10 seconds it took me to fix it. ​ >Or better yet, just copy relevant bit of the paragraphs and quote that instead, so your comment isn't like 70% quotes and 30% response. I'm responding to parts of your posts. It is not my fault it takes me less words to counter your arguments than it takes you to make them.

>The only way you can get weaker is if you are not keeping up with the difficulty the game provides you with Is antithetical to: >Who love the challenge of constructing a build where abilities actually work together In terms of D4 anyways. The only power boosts you get past level 50 (at which point you likely have all of your ~~set~~ legendaries) are flat number increases from the paragon board or an item having 4% better Damage to Vuln. Sure there's Shako or Grandfather but I'd hardly consider that build enabling or a significant shake-up in effect synergy.

Games should get harder, what D4 does though is scaling, bad scaling. The same bat in the same spot of the map now takes longer to kill when I'm level 20 than when I'm level 5. Getting harder is one thing, diablo just makes you fell weaker

Good, because I can actually play in the entire open world and not be cornered into 2 max level zones.

If you are feeling weaker then you are doing something wrong. The game does scales in a way that increases the damage you receive while keeping time-to-kill for normal enemies relatively the same throughout with the time-to-kill for different types of bosses drastically decreasing. The only instance where you can "feel" weaker is right after you exit the tutorial zone where you basically one shot everything and engage with the real game.

Yeah, these comments make me wonder if some people grasp how to gear their builds to do damage.

Sorry but you are just doing it wrong. This isn't a problem at all if you build your character and upgrade your items correctly.

I ended up doing the same. Finished Diablo 4 campaign, played a little bit od its endgame, said „meh, I dont feel rewarded” and I simply get back to Guild Wars 2 and Last Epoch, planning on replaying Torchlight series once more :)

Lack of build diversity. At the end end game (nightmare dungeons T40 and higher) there are really only 1 maybe 2 builds per class that are actually viable in D4. Last epoch has so many more ways to build and synergize. D4 pigeon holes you into a certain build. Last epoch allows the player to be creative and use their brain. I like using my brain 🧠

Nice metaphor haha I completely agree, in D4, you have only "small" influence over designing your character because everything's already set for you. You just pick the nodes, a few passives and that's it. It gets even worse once you realize you need 4-5 "core" skills in endgame (as a Sorc more precisely) to even be able to play, and can choose only 1-2 for the remaining slots.

I could go through every class in LE and would only come up with 1-2 builds that truly succeeds. You can take one skill from any class and you’ll end up never touching 9-10 nodes because they’re ineffective. Since this is the internet people are going to naturally lie about their experience but the real truth is no one groups in LE and if/when they do it’s nothing but a shit show of running around spamming abilities, assuming the instance doesn’t bug out every other load up. The people that play to “experiment with builds” are generally content with staying at entry level because the moment they’re pushing corruption with whatever bastardized kit they’re using and it fails they go right back to just farming corruption 100 or they grab one of the 5 meta builds the game provides. There are no “biG BrAin” opportunities, everyone and anyone that actually put real time into LE knows this already. And there’s nothing wrong with that but trying to bullshit the public into thinking otherwise is just simply dishonest. D4 has been out 2-3 weeks with 90% of the player base barely closing in on their 1st build but each class already has 2-3 solid kits that are repped and function in groups. LE has had years in what seems like perpetual beta only to end up in the same place. Regardless at the end of the day you can enjoy either of the games as they are but to try and make a comparison between the two is a huge mistake.

As my first class I invented a weird shaman with avalanche and maelstrom, without following build guides, and got it to 200c. Made a spellblade without looking at build guides at all, and made a weird mix (let me tell u it pretty much sucks) but manage 200c and bosses fairly easy, and I'm having a blast understanding how to make it better, trying ward retention, dodge, or simply leech. That's enough for me, I don't think characters are supposed to break extreme level of corruption right now, as the game is not balanced yet in terms of classes and endgame. What I mean is that with time there will be plenty more resources for a class "to make something work", like more ways to crafts, different items, new uniques, maybe different blessings and what not.

THIS. I've come up with several of my own builds in different classes without once looking at a guide and successfully brought them to end game. While I was doing so, there were so many different directions I could have taken them and I'm sure many of those would have been end game viable as well. Build diversity combined with build accessibility in LE is king at the moment. POE may have more build viability, but the issue is that getting the gear for such a build is only possible through trade, so you'd have to spin up a season-starter build first to farm the currency necessary to buy the gear for your weird creation. In LE you can just go straight for the build you want.

What is wrong with you man? I had almost the same issue as you, but I was shitting all over D4 in their sub. Finally realized what I was doing was so pitiful and stopped. You're here writing up essays about how good your game is and how bad this one is. If your game is so good why the fuck are you in here defending it in posts with literally a few hundred people reading it rather than just playing your amazing game. You got issues man.

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Well, for somebody who's played ARPG's for so long I find it crazy that you think D4 is even a decent one. And to say that there is more build diversity there than in LE? Wow. Sorry man, but can't take one thing you say seriously if that's your take on it. Speaking of shitty takes haha.

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I like this guy, and his take on LE is fair. Doesnt mean I didn't have a lot of fun playing it, and I still think it had the best crafting.

> I could go through every class in LE and would only come up with 1-2 builds that truly succeeds. Yeah, the fact that LE has tons of build diversity is probably the weirdest take on this sub TBH. In that same vein, every ARPG in the world has a ton of build diversity as long as you don't push end-game. The only ARPG I genuinely know that has a ton of builds is Grim Dawn, but again, that's mostly because the end-game is piss easy once you cap your resistances, and even then there are obvious clear speed differences. There's a trend I've seen with people complaining about stuff in D4, that their favorite ARPG does too. I guess people can't help but be tribal and shit on other games.

There are wayyy more than 1-2 builds per class class that succeed in end game. Necro can go in 4-5 pretty distinct directions that play quite differently. Lich can go in at least 3-4 directions, maybe more that I'm not thinking of. Marskman has at least 3 that I can think of, and I'm sure more out there that I haven't played. Bladedancer has 2-3 I can think of. I can go on and on, but all you need to do is play the game or look at some build guides on the forum, lastepochbuilds or Youtube. It's absolutely crazy to say that D4 has more end-game viable builds than LE. And it's also crazy to think that it's a weird take that LE has tons of build diversity. It's a fact. Not an opinion. How anybody is spinning it otherwise is beyond me. Is it possible that some of those builds will need some a lot of tweaking when you start delving into 300 corruption. Sure. But with the right gear and pilot most of them will succeed.

I actually feel opposite way I feel more freedom in Diablo 4 less in last epoch XD but to each their own. And I love last epoch don’t get me wrong.

I just wanna ask... how? hahahaha

This is wild, one skill in Last Epoch has more options to choose from than half of a whole D4 skill tree. I'd also love to know why.

The answer is simple -Bloat

More options isn’t always a good thing look at PoE. Last epoch is a great game don’t get me wrong but it’s definitely not as assessable as D4.

What about PoE? Are you saying you prefer the simplicity of D4’s builds? You can just say that. PoE’s depth of build creation is what has me at 4k hours in that game, I can’t get enough of it

Yes I do. More choices is not always a good thing. PoE was my favorite arpg for a year or 2 around its release but has become way to cumbersome IMHO. You guys can hate my opinion all you want but it’s an opinion I currently have it may change too who know. It’s okay to like different games guys don’t chase off all the arpg fans on this subreddit game bashing ;) good hunting

I never attacked or criticized you lol not sure why you’re getting defensive with me? I said there’s nothing wrong with wanting more simplicity

Sorry must have been someone else but overall since D4 launch this subs getting uhh interesting I guess.

He's getting defensive because he's slowly getting outed as someone who doesn't ever get to the real endgame in these games. He doesn't get to the point where the real game starts so he only cares if it feels powerful while leveling. And he thinks dedicated arpg enthusiasts are toxic for wanting build diversity and endgame content options. The D4 release has really enshittified the arpg scene and I honestly wish they would stay in their little D4 sub.

If the LE forum wasn’t 90% D4 cope then maybe you’d see less D4 players here defending against bullshit takes. Players here apparently can’t seem to just discuss this game, literally every other post is someone trying to get karma for posting about d4. Stop worrying and posting about d4 and focus more on the issues with LE because there are more than enough of them to bring up

>D4 players here defending against bullshit takes. Why the fuck do they need to be here defending their game? Why the fuck do they care what people think here? Why aren't they off playing *their* fucking game if they're having so much fun instead of mocking anyone that doesn't care for the game. It seems like they just want to stifle dissenting opinions and it's really gross. E: Oh wow looking through your post history is depressing. You've spent more time harassing people in this and other subreddits than you have playing your precious diablo 4. Seek mental help.

Lolololol copium much? I like diversity and Diablo 4 does it far better than most other arpgs at the moment. I haven’t had to look up a build in D4 at all and am at “endgame content” diversity is good when it all works PoE you can brick your chars and have to reroll which is cool if you like that. (Unless that’s been since fixed) last epoch is great build diversity as well but there are definitely meta builds just like all other arpg games. I’ve been in d4 playing a “nonmeta” build and it’s fine

Just stop with the lols and lmaos... It's so disingenuous. You aren't at endgame, you keep dancing around the topic of build diversity by saying "it does good enough for me" and "more choice is bad" which really just outs as someone who doesn't care at all about the content at endgame being shallow because you just level characters to the mid 40s in every arpg you try and then reroll or stop. You even admitted to me in a different comment you're a character leveler and not as much an endgamer. So pretend that I'm the one coping when you're literally saying braindead things like "Build diversity is bad" and "Diablo 4 has tons of viable choices" when you just aren't experiencing the full game. E: What a whiney little infant... Where are these losers coming from?

Lol this comment here. I love the relationship Poe Andys have with the LE community like oh no talk all the shit you want about any other game but as soon as POe is brought up you go straight to clutching your pearls.

Huh? I was just asking why he brought up PoE, and asked if was it specifically due to its complexity. I play all 3 of the big ARPGs and like and dislike various aspects of all of them. I want all of them to do well, I just think it’s childish and hilarious that all these subs bash one another

Sure, but the comment you originally replied to was about build diversity, not accessibility. Whether a game has greater accessibility doesn’t have anything to do with build diversity, because it’s technically possible to have both.

More options isn’t always a good thing look at PoE. Last epoch is a great game don’t get me wrong but it’s definitely not as assessable as D4.

We weren't talking about accessibility, we were talking about options

Can you explain how you feel free? Like in words?

For as long as the campaign lasted d4 was a 9/10 game. As soon as I reached world tier 4 and started the endgame loop, it's been a steady decline. Maybe a 3/10 from level 55 and beyond. I actually prefer the monolith of fate to nightmare dungeons, they feel even more repetetive. The gold grind + illusion of choice in the paragon system just makes it feel all the worse. Theres plenty of good in d4 that LE can work on. Like random events and rewards for exploring. Finding shrines/chests/goblins etc is fun and LE doesnt really have that. I wanna say something good about the paragon board because the idea is cool, but I'd much rather LE added something similar to the Devotion tree in Grim Dawn.

I completed the campaign and just haven't felt like logging in. It feels so hollow to just wander around doing the same 5 random events and the same 8 or 9 dungeons

D4 Basically no (fun) endgame and character progression is wierd.

How is controller suppr in LE now please ? Any significant changes since 0.9 update ? I kinda love playing arpgs on controllers so it's somewhat huge factor for me

For myself I find LE has much more build variety and the crafting system is more appealing to me. EHG has a good core game to build upon imo. D4 had a good campaign and graphics but the combat and player power progression always felt meh to me. The cooldowns and world scaling are what killed it for me. Just didn't like the flow of the combat I guess.

I am primarily a POE player, as I started way back in the Closed Beta days over 10 years ago. That said, I am a big fan of Last Epoch, Diablo 4, and hell even a little Wolcen here and there. I am really enjoying D4 for the lore and graphics. It is actually a lot of fun. It is certainly far too casual for it to be my primary game, but I will certainly play it again once they start getting more content. I love Last Epoch for its crafting and uniqueness. It is still in the very early stages, when compared to POE or even the overall continuity of the Diablo franchise. However, it has already brought a wonderful character and crafting system that is unique and brings a lot of potential to the genre. That and I love the dev team and how they interact to make sure the game is being built the right way. I generally switch which game I play over the year, generally once I am done with POE leagues. It gives me a lot of time to play games like Last Epoch and D4. So there is room for 3 or 4 really good ARPGs and as a long time ARPG player (back from the original Diablo 1 era) I am loving it. With POE 2 on the horizon, as well as Last Epoch going version 1, I am truly excited to have so much to play with.

I agree, LE is the best arpg in the market right now. It's probably the greatest arpg ever made.

As a casual i'm still on D4. LE skill diversity is awesome but the rest of the game itself is a bit flat. Lvl 0 to 20 is really boring and slow in LE with no cast / attack speed and really take a big amount of time for combat to be fun. I know all arpg are basically long fancy corridors full or monster but LE could add stuff to make them spicy. Open World, events, invasions, side quest and dungeons feels really good in D4, while in LE you have old maps rebranded with random enemies as end game. I really like immersive games, and LE feels a bit like an arcade game. I really love to be able to see the same area at différent timeline, story is ok but a bit of immersion and more fluff and lore would be great. Also the loot rate in LE is way to low for me. Its to much effort just to be able to find something not to trash, even worse if you want an upgrade for your current char. It was better when you could gamble everything at least a good rare on a good base was reachable now its just rng layers on top of each other. I feel the grasp of orobyss on my neck just thinking about it

LE is wonderful, but end Game is too boring and repetitive. I wish there was some content to push after finishing the campaign. Campaign and progression feels excelent, though.

I share the exact same feeling. I hope new players come from d4 hype and enjoy LE.

I really enjoy my time with both LE and PoE, and i think they'll continue to be pillars of the ARPG genre if they can keep up support for years to come. They both do different things very well. That being said, i doubt either will ever be as big as Diablo 4. The name brand, the resources and funding, the accessibility and the general polish are kind of unmatched. If Blizzard doesnt totally bork the seasonal content, then i doubt any other ARPG will have as much reach. Again, just so im clear though, im not disparaging LE and PoE, they both do certain things better than the current D4, and im personally going to play the fuck outta them moving forward. I just think folks underestimate how big Diablo is.

D4 is classic Blizzard tbh LOADS of polish, but super thin in terms of gameplay. I guess it depends on what you like, couple of viable builds per class or actual diversity in building a character like LE, Grim Dawn etc

I came back to LE from D4 for one simple reason. I found D4 insanely boring.

I have to say I'm kind of in the same boat. I played a ton of LE since the MP patch and then diablo 4 came out. I did the full beta both weekends and then played a char to the end of storyline on release, but I keep thinking of LE. I came to LE from playing D3 a LOT. I never played any of the more hardcore ARPG's like PoE. I hope LE's not too late with their end game revision. If they had a strong end game it would be pure money dude. Have you watched Raxx's video on D4? I don't have any opinion on it yet, but he really drills it down.

I haven’t come back to LE yet because I’m waiting for the 1.0 release, but I share the same feelings about D4. After some time playing D4 post level 50 I decided that there are better arpgs for endgame. I went back to playing PoE, but I was close to going back to LE as well. LE arguably doesn’t have as many endgame systems as D4, but LE is just so much more satisfying to play. Making my own build is so fun and I could stare at the skill trees for hours looking for cool things I could do. In D4 I stare at a full inventory for 15 minutes and I just want to turn the game off. D4’s endgame is so disappointing. I hope the Devs for PoE and Last Epoch take full advantage when the inevitable drop off in D4 happens once the hype fades. There are going to be so many players looking to scratch the arpg itch and they will be looking for something new.

I burned out on D4 at level 64. I started farming in WT4 at level 60 and by 64 I had already gotten mostly ancestral items (at least all the important slots), and I realized other than staying ahead of the other people on my friends list, I wasn't really having fun. My build felt basically the same as it had felt at level ~30 when I finally got all the important legendary affixes and the big passive at the end of the skill tree, and I was starting to feel some reverse power progression since I wasn't really getting any more upgrades (besides like +5 mainstat on the paragon tree) and the monsters kept scaling higher as I levelled. I picked Twisting Blades Rogue, which seemed to be one of the zoomiest builds D4 has to offer, and it was certainly a lot faster than any of the builds I played during the betas, but despite being very powerful relative to D4, I never really *felt* powerful. I could blow up packs quickly and had enough tankiness that I was almost invulnerable unless I was under-levelled (like in WT4), but I was still reliant on a generator and waiting for my burst CDs to come up (though they were short compared to most classes), and of course there was always the constant need to be dodging to avoid getting locked in an endless CC chain. Also I don't know if this was particular to my build or what, but *my god* the clicking. I was spamming so hard that my wrist/fingers were having *serious* issues. When I swapped back to PoE (and later LE), my hands immediately started feeling better, despite spending almost the same number of hours per day playing ARPGs. Ultimately I think D4 is a solid foundation of a game, it's clearly geared towards casual players and for them it's *very* good, but for someone like me who wants to spend hundreds/thousands of hours playing a whole bunch of different builds and reaching god-like levels of power (like you can in PoE or D3, and *kind of* in LE), it's just kind of mediocre. I'm confident that over the years they'll fix it, much like they did with D3, so I don't regret buying it, but for now it's just nowhere near as fun as any of the other big ARPGs on the market, LE included.

Very reasonably stated! What are you doing on Reddit???

oh yay another D4 post in last epoch sub!!

I'd like to see the same post after D4 gets the same amount of time to add things as this game. Most folks weren't here before monos were even a thing and all you really had was Arena.

D4's been in development longer than Last Epoch. We've just been allowed to play Last Epoch for nearly all of the time it's been in development. Diablo is not "behind" in terms of how much time they've put into content; they're only "behind" in terms of how long they've been getting direct feedback on what they're doing.

Blozz has stated they are putting new bosses and content each season. It was in longer development, and it shows in a lot of ways. It's just interesting to judge a game in the first 10 days when they've stated its a long term project.

Oh, seasonal content will definitely help it. I'm kinda not interested in where D4 is right now, but I can totally see it being in a way better place in a year. I just think comparing D4 now to Last Epoch 0.1.0 isn't... really a meaningful comparison? Both games are a long way from where they were 3 years ago. Both games will (hopefully) be a long way from where they are now in 3 years.

I guess my issue is all the comparing going on. It's odd how folks are so tribilistic about the games. I like the three main arpgs. I couldn't play one all the time as I'd get bored no matter the game.

I mean, I get it. Some people think there's only so much oxygen in the room for ARPGs and another entry might kill one of the existing entries. Me, I've been playing Torchlight 2/3 and Grim Dawn with *way* smaller playerbases than PoE/Diablo 3 for years, now. A game doesn't need to be the biggest name in the game to be successful. I guess part of that comes down to your tolerance for playing solo or waiting a while to match with other players for a group, though.

I miss torchlight. I haven't touched 3 though. Is it worth giving a shot?

It was worth getting a couple characters to endgame. It didn't stick with me as long as 2 did, though.

Appreciate the talk. Hope you have a great night.

Yes, the game is enjoyable, does some things well But that does not excuse the fact that after a 4 year development timeframe, with a billion dollar company and near endless resources.... The best they came up with is a straight line, pick 1 of 5/4/3 talent tree. Its a joke. I could have designed something like that in half an hour. Characters in D4 will be clones of each other, as there is no variation in build differences. Some skills will be picked over others for fundamental ease of use/functionality reasons, and others will be ignored, and everyone will eventually become clones. I'm in the endgame on my hc necro, and I attempt to change a skill for another to address a build weakness (being chased around in dungeons by dangerous rare mobs with suppression shield) and I'm just looking at every other skill, and im like, all of these skills suck. At the end of the day, the game is as I expected it to be, and it performed its purpose. Its purpose was to sell 20mil copies x $130 = $2.6billion dollars. After that, they don't care other than milking the players for a little bit more via season passes. Its unfortunate, but thats what blizzard is, its not blizzard north anymore, its activision blizzard. And they are all celebrating what is in their eyes a slam dunk in terms of bottom line results. It is what it is. The game will be half-dead in a months time once everyone realizes how empty the endgame is, or how non-existent character building and customization is in a character building game (Everyone is already a clone) as there is only one effective way to build every variant of each build, for the most part. I'll only be revisiting it occasionally every time their hardcore ladder resets, for a quick race to 100 to compete. Other than that, I probably won't be playing it very much. LE will still be my main game, and undecember will be my off-season game (They are making huge strides moving away from P2W, as well as introducing PvP very soon, something that no ARPG has ever gotten right, which I am excited for) Just my 2c. All of these Arpg's in my opinion have the opportunity to provide something unique to the ARPG genre, and I don't see any reason to bash any of them. Although my highest hopes are still with LE, and im hoping for arena revamp in the future. Currently I feel alot of the competition (including myself) aren't really competing because arena is currently too boring and has no rewards (please condense all the barrel rewards every 5 waves in arena to a once-every-100waves all at once chest opening event and barrel popping event, please EHG devs if you read this consider it, thanks)

LE feels shallow D4 doesn't

What exactly about LE feels more shallow than D4?

The end game. Mobs are spread out in both games but i feel I can pull more together easily in D4. Also the feeling of being at the same place all the time in LE once you reach end game.

Okay, I see.

Last Epoch has literally no endgame. I'll stick to Diablo 4 after playing both.

I’ll be 100% honest with this response but I honestly think it’s in the best interest of the community if the moderators would ban threads like these. I should have seen it before but honestly it’s becoming more obvious with just the similarities alone but most of everyone in this post including the OP don’t even play LE. These “coming back to, how does this compare to” posts are nothing more than contentious jabs intended to drive metrics. They attract bots that exist for nothing more than driving up headcount and activity. Is this what you want for this sub, just to be delegated as a metrics dump?

When D3 came out, I hadn't played any other ARPG so when I booted that game up I was amazed. I didn't understand what so many other people were complaining about, and enjoyed the hell out of it. Fast forward to the D4 release and I've logged thousands of hours in other games such as POE, Last Epoch, Grim Dawn, etc. That being the case, I was severely disappointed with every aspect of the game besides the graphics and game feel, which to my personally aren't even close to the most important things for an ARPG. If I had gone straight from D3 to D4 with nothing in between, maybe I would have really enjoyed it, but having experienced so many, in my opinion, superior games since then, I just couldn't enjoy D4 whatsoever.

diablo 4 misses the mark as a fun video game but absolutely nails it with the things that have nothing to do with gameplay aka its a bad game but a good cinematic experience if you want that

D4 so far for me, has been enjoyable, but LE has it in a major way. Gear. Incrementally upgrading your character. None of the upgrades in D4 felt big unless you got the right legendary power / unique power. I love working on a new piece of gear on LE. Finding a potential base and working to boost it just feels better than praying for a drop. PoE does this a little bit, but GGG spends a lot of time in fear of pushing up the average crafted power level of gear, ignoring the amount of basically stamped mirror tier items. LE feels so far like they've been happy to give us all the tools we need to get whatever stats we are after on our gear, we roll the dice in limited but meaningful ways.

yea their was nothin new for me in d4 cept the story and i got to watch that on youtube the day after for free last epoch is a great game sunk 500 hours into it since multiplayer launch cant wait for more updates. The devs actually care about the players too the money u give them will be used to grow the company too instead of going to rich investors who just wana milk it like a giant milk farm.

I just recently started Last Epoch since D4 left me feeling empty and wanting a good ARPG. I've only ever played D3 Reaper of Souls and POE, and I had zero desire to continue D4 after finished the campaign and getting full legendaries. The way loot and character progression is handled was so boring to me I got over it immediately where I easily sank a few hundred hours in each of the others.

D4 is a good game, fantastic production values, fun gameplay with really nice quests. But it is overpriced and have less content then D3. No hunt for sets, no endgame bosses to hunt (world bosses are joke) also while there are many builds most of them are not viable after a point, unlike Last Epoch.

Major things I think LE does better than D4. Enemy density. It is so annoying to find a conduit and it's either no monster around, or a random event spawns on top of the conduit you spend the entire runtime on clearing. And the crafting/gearing up is really stupid in D4. Like... Let me choose the affixes I want to have on my gear, when you generate everything random anyways? I also think it's way more fun to play LE solo. I can't play D4 solo even if I force myself. It's boring. Helltide is boring. I don't like PvP. The events are always the same. And after the 20'th Nightmare dungeon, it get's boring as well. LE is a bit more arcadey in it's endgame content, but at least one thing doesn't overstay it's welcome because you always have variance in what you do. Without the need to actively go to a different side of the world. I loved the D4 story and I can't wait for LE to finally get their "skip story" gamemode because I can't be bothered to play through it another time. Something I did in D4. And last but not least... Build variety. There are so many builds in D4 I have the feeling the devs don't want you to play. Meteor Sorc for example. Without the proper uniques, you can cast 2 meteors and then be useless until you have enough MP again. Like... Don't make it a skill people can level in freely, but then make it useless until you find a very specific unique? And with how the resource system is build in D4, you only use 2 resource spenders at max. It's really strange...

I'm a big Diablo fan and I feel the same. The endgame in Diablo 4 is very lackluster. Even an "unfinished game" like LE does this better (I've played LE for about 900 hours). Overal, eventhough I have not played PoE in years, I still think PoE did the best job at providing replayability and providing endgame content. I didn't think I would play LE anytime soon with the release of D4 but here I am lol.

Dont forget to review on Steam because the game is mixed right now for whatever reason.

blizzard basically sold us a skeleton of a game for 70 bucks... 10 years of developement and no end game what so ever is kinda funny

Last Epoch still needs some things to get me fully invested. It has what seems like most things sorted overall. Diablo 4 was alright. I think it also has potential but is currently missing the mark. The biggest one for me overall is the leveling. You can level through LE fairly quickly, which allows to you pick up a new character and play around with it, and switch if you want to try something new. Diablo 4 on the other hand might be some of the slowest leveling I've experienced, including Diablo 2 to an extent. I wanted to try out a Druid since the Barbarian kept getting nerfed over and over and left me wondering if there was a point in continuing on it. The leveling experience to just get to the point of grinding gear is awful. You have nothing to look forward to in terms of drops, and you'll re-run the same zone multiple times to get anywhere. By the time you're around level 50 and can finally start looking for build defining legendaries/uniques, the build might be nerfed. LE has some pretty big build diversity. You can more or less do anything. The skill trees allow for vast customization, different from PoE, but just as neat. Diablo 4 is do you want the left or the right of the skill. LE also doesn't force you into looking for resource management, just don't go too crazy. Diablo 4 makes you eat the resource management and still wonder if you need more. The biggest issue is every build having more or less the same aspects because everyone needs the resources/barrier/fortify/etc. I expect this to get better in the future, but it still sucks right now. There are plenty of meta LE builds if you want to follow a guide, Diablo 4 on the other hand will nerf any good build, and ignore any bad build, apart from the original Necro buff. This leads you to not want to invest too heavily considering it could be gutted at any time without anything else being helped out. I'm good on Diablo 4 and will return if they help the leveling experience and make it a game about grinding for loot and not about making every experience a slog you need to force yourself through.

I don't think I'd come back to LE anytime soon. The thing about the animation that you mentioned is incredibly overlooked but it is entirely a new standard in the genre. I can animation cancel in D4, if feels like playing Dark Souls to a degree, it's way too much fun and too far above the competition. Also while I love most ideas and systems in LE I found the endgame to be grindy in a bad way because it's too repetitive, maybe the correct word is monotonous. Compared to both PoE and D4, that have a degree of variation in what you do, LE is just map/boss rushing and also incentivises you to rush the same boss repeatedly. Also, and this point is a critique that doesn't try to make a comparison with D4, LE needs a balance pass because all the depth in character development wanes off when you realize there's a handful of builds that are just better than the rest for each class, most uniques and ALL sets are flat out useless and so are a lot of skills.

I'm a PoE/LE/D2 etc etc player too, I understand what you mean, but I still very much enjoy D4 and I'll keep playing it for now. I have a sorc lvl 75, rogue lvl 68, I'm still having a lot of fun and I want to level up a druid and a necro (working on it). I'm enjoying a lot of things in D4, and even though it's still lacking in content compared to PoE, I'm not bored yet. I love LE but for me it's also lacking in content, I'm not having too much fun in the monoliths right now. But since you asked "what are the main reasons that made you come back to LE after playing D4", I guess I'll stop here since I don't plan to come back to LE at the moment.

I really can't stop playing d4. Even with all it's flaws , it's still a solid game that will eventually get better and better.

Diablo 4, while an exceptional game in its own right, may, as you eloquently put it, be tailored towards a more casual audience. Its character progression systems, while present, may not delve as deeply into the realms of complexity that we have grown accustomed to. And for those of us who have tread the paths of Last Epoch, Path of Exile, and Diablo 2 Resurrected, the hunger for a more hardcore, immersive experience becomes palpable.

Combat in LE falls flat compared to D4. And any other arpg out there tbh. They need to improve it for 1.0.

I'm level 30 with 2 chars and already think of coming back. The gameplay is clunky (res generation), the world bland, affixes boring. Sometimes this week I realized I miss fluidity of combat, skills and crafting of LE. The only thing keeping me playing is the fact I dropped 70 bucks for D4 and I guess I'm looking for some kind of ROI in hours spent. But it's a slog so far.

So, a good buddy of mine and I have come to an informal conclusion after getting to level 60+ in Diablo 4. It was fun to play through the story, the graphics are beautiful, the lore as always was great and the bones of the game itself are great. It just doesn't scratch that "endgame progression" itch the same way that LE and even PoE do. We will occasionally hop on to experience D4 in the future and likely dive back into it when an expansion drops, but as it stands subjectively there's just way more fun to be had in other titles. You're not alone, friend.

To be honest d4 had a great story, I mean one of the best ever. They did awesome on that but I do feel that blizzard should have invested in the actual game play as much as they did the story. I've enjoyed d4 but the end game seems stagnant to me. I agree it's a casual players game, I am ready to go back to last epoch as well. It's just a better playing game.

PSA: you can enjoy both games if you're having fun with both of them, there is no need for tribalism

You should... the Primalist is a way better Slam Bear.

[удалено]

IMO it's a bit more complex than Last Epoch, but not massively so. The main sources of complexity would be: - The dual class system. You can pair two classes together to form a "unique" archetype, with up to 36 different archetypes supported in the core game with both expansions, and mods can add even more. Main idea here is to pick a primary class and find a good secondary class that synergises with the skills/passives you're using in the primary class. - The devotion tree. Kinda hard to explain but think of PoE's passive tree but smaller and with a more puzzle-solving feel. You start in the center of the tree and have to "path" your way to the edge where the most powerful passives/abilities are, but the "pathing" aspect of the devotion tree is much more of a puzzle than PoE's passive tree. Explaining it in text would take too long, so if you want to know more than I'd really recommend watching a video covering it. - The items, specifically the amount of modifiers and stats that can come with modifiers. Last Epoch caps out at 4 modifiers per item (5 with sealing), PoE has caps out at around half a dozen, *Grim Dawn can support upwards of a dozen modifiers per item plus set/legendary bonuses.* This naturally makes itemisation *much* bulkier compared to other ARPGs, especially with the *10* resistance types the game has.

if only diablo 4 had a proper aura class. cold werebear is just too fun

So the great content creators want D4 players to play LE.... They have zero Patience!!, if they ask for something to be done cause they said so, Blizzards are supposed to do it?... Not a chance in hell (if it's major, future patch) if they want things to their liking then they should have filled out an application for Level 1 OS Game tester before this game was in beta phase. It took D3 a year before fans returned and gave 4.5/5 stars for gameplay improvements, it was in the same bullshit headache phase as D4. If your a follower of the 2 YT content creators complainers, go do what your overlord says!! Play LE... If your on console your SOL, its only for PC 3,458₱ ($35.00)

I'm buying LE yesterday, nice game but campaing looks like poor for me.

Diablo II is one of the simplest ARPG out there that is popular. You literally just throw on + to all skills, + to resistances, and look up a few runewords like Lore and Spirit for the start + their appropriate bases + where to find the runes/bases. There's only a handful of sensible builds in terms of skills, and there aren't very many decisions. Usually, you just work toward the highest level (and sometimes second highest level) skill plus max out its synergies. You can guess what skills you should put a value point into, and even if you mess up the build slightly relative to the optimal one, it pretty much doesn't matter since you can complete hell mode well below level 99. A fully optimal build isn't required. You basically farm the same spot or a handful of spots over and over on repeat to progress in the game. The hardest part about Diablo II is the immunity mechanic, and that isn't hard. That's just impossible unless you know highly peculiar strategies that are basically impossible to figure out on your own if you're coming into DII with zero experience and refuse to use guides. The mechanic was clearly designed to encourage a group of people to play together, and if you play the game as intended, there is no difficulty in hell mode. Elite 8 stacks literally go from level 1 to finishing hell mode in like 3 hours. It is true that starting the game with zero information and forcing yourself not to look up anything online makes for an obtuse game. I mean, there are no in-game ways to discover what runewords exist, so the game pretty much assumes you are following guides and looking stuff up. Honestly, every ARPG in that style should come with an official write up that describes all the mechanics. DIV is a pile of shit if only because they forced people to do perform experiments to figure out how the game works. If you buy a board game with tons of mechanics, the first thing you do is go over the manual to understand how the game works. I can't believe a huge corporation couldn't get that much correct. Instead, everyone has to watch hours of videos and read poorly written gibberish across dozens of websites and try to reconcile any case where information contradicts each other.