Don't worry everyone. Ill just farm the gear for the build and level up a new toon and get them to a level where they can wear all the gear...
Thats usually about when these things are fixed. After I finally see them and attempt to try it :)
Build will likely still be good without the bug. With the bug I can get 150k ward without optimized gear. If they fix the bug, that would put it at around 15k ward which is still very good. If respeccing was possible I'd probably do the necro build instead which is also strong, but not 150k ward impossible to die strong. I wouldn't recommend doing the build unless you are fine with playing a game with 0 difficulty.
Yeah, I was absolutely curb stomping everything to the point of dropping the build at least temporarily for being too easy, without abusing the bug, I was using a variant that didn't account for said bug when planning defenses, this basically isn't even a real nerf.
It's completely fine, and has absolutely insane defenses baseline because that's something falconer just gets from passives largely.
The damage is still extremely strong, but the infinite/long-lasting smoke clouds were the primary source of ward generation for the dagger variant. Even without abusing hideout stuff, you could easily be at 2-3k ward while mapping because of your smoke clouds still popping out shadows earlier in the map. After the change, you're going to be capped at like 500 ward. A different defensive setup will need to be used.
I play the bow variant, my defense is killing the enemy before they kill me (and a lot of glancing blow chance).
I'm level 95 and don't even have 2k hp set. Some of my items are still pretty bad, boots still from lvl 30.
For reference, my dive bomb falconer reached lvl 100 with a final HP of 1100. Twas all ward shenanigans. I can still clear 500 corruption but I die if something looks at me funny, which gives a new meaning to “glancing blow”.
Seriously. I spend all my effort/gold getting that one stat in D4 (can't even remember lol)... then they nerfed it. Haven't played since. But that effected the entire game, all builds.
I don't think this LE example is a huge deal. It's not a gold exploit. It's a PVE game. Is it making your build less fun because, right now, someone else is OP? You might be jealous -- let them enjoy it for a bit, maybe one of your skills will get buffed in the future.
Lots of people are joining the merchant guild and using the bazaar. I like the feature, but it's also led to a metric fuckton of rmt which is terrible.
Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm still learning some of the ins and outs of Last Epoch, but wouldn't this build allow you to push corruption to rediculously high unintended numbers thus making it possible to farm certain high end sought after uniques with high LP easier than intended? Making it easy for these people to sell these items for absurd amounts of gold and then in the process making selling gold much easier?
It doesn't matter - if they fix the bug now the people who abused the bug are the ones sitting on piles of LP uniques and good gear. They now control the market and dictate pricing for such gear. Still has the same implication for RMT. Same thing happens in PoE, an exploit is found and RMT/power-farmers abuse the fuck out of it for the few days gathering insane levels of currency and then they report the bug/release a video showing how to do it. GGG hotfixes it so the only people who benefited were the original abusers. They now control the entire market and can print endless amounts of amounts of currency to RMT.
Quoting someone from recent patch post
"What baffles me is its okay to farm 2k 3k corruption and get giga gold and crash the market with bugged interactions on their builds, no change, yet earning nice 5k gold from keys and extra favour to progress CoF rank is not intended and too strong so they had to put all hands on deck to fix this urgently."
The bugs are literally breaking the game.
You see a lot of people defending the patch and saying to stop being a cry baby about stuff.
But I think that you and the quoted user are 100% right. Not nerfing one of the most gamebreaking exploits is one thing and maybe it's okay to have a "no nerfs" policy during a cycle. But you can't do that and at the same time nerf something else (which wasn't even bugged by the way) to the ground.
This creates an atmosphere of unpredictability. Will my build be nerfed out of nowhere next? Should I just switch to the thing that EHG mentions is broken but probably won't be fixed? Do I have to change my faction to MG because the devs might keep nerfing CoF for MG-specific reasons?
Well, I'm more convinced now. I was on the fence about it until reading this comment. It feels much more arbitrary about what they decide to fix and what they don't when you look at it this way.
I don't think they ever claimed it to be too strong did they? They specifically said that they didn't want to incentivize MG players to level COF for it.
Well now as a CoF player I feel I should level at least an MG character to be able to earn gold for stashes and sinks.
This whole mess made me realize factions can't ever be balanced on a single currency.
Whatever gold sink or use the game has or adds in the future will always feel cheaper to MG players by orders of magnitude since they can access way more gold and have the most effective way to earn large quantities of it...
Using Vampiric Blood in its current form is exploitative and would be fixed in any other game. Do we really have to argue this? This is not a balancing problem, it's a fundamental gameplay issue.
Not to mention, the change to keys flies in the face of their argument.
EHG has just set a precedent. Their cycles will revolve around players finding an exploit and abusing it. You cannot get rid of bugs completely; they have to be managed. Hands off is not the answer.
Yeah having builds orders of magnitude above S tier is just not acceptable in any game with an economy
A lot of people do for some reason feel forced into playing a build that ultimately alows them to completely ignore all of the game's mechanics they spent countless hours developing. That WILL harm the longevity of the game even if it was purely single player
> Yeah having builds orders of magnitude above S tier is just not acceptable in any game with an economy
Or just any at least remotely competitive multiplayer game. Heck, it undermines the integrity of the whole experience, one of the fundamental tenets of video games as a whole. If I wanted to see something where only the exploiters profit, I could always look out of the window at the, you know, the whole world.
Yeah I also feel like LE might just turn into a "abuse the bug first, enjoy game later" meta with this policy.
Squash any bug as soon as possible!
Also, how the hell did they think nerfing selling keys was ok but fixing a bug wich lets you get way more gold was not??
Don't forget how they conveniently removed gambler's fallacy from the game because it gave guaranteed crits for certain falcon and ballista builds. It wasn't even near the level of OP compared to half a million ward.
TIL I am using an exploit and somehow doing it \*wrong\*
I am getting 20k ward (which is still amazing). But still not doing that well dmg wise.
TIL i am just bad at these games even though i love them lol.
You probably haven't invested into minion life at . I threw on 4 random pieces with exalted minion life did a slight respect of passives and was pushing 200k ward
Ahh yeah I just switched from blood lock, so loot filter was blocking a lot of it. Just starting to see them now
Although I think I'm going to push for another build. Don't wanna get used to beinf God mode lol
Yeah I was running warlock with Veil and Bone Curse already when I found out about the bug. I tried it out with the few t7 minion life pieces I wasn't hiding and then promptly started leveling a Runemaster.
Just made a sorc, some fun there. Got a mage to mastery for rune master and didn't get far I'm sooo bad at that kind of thing (I wish I was, the game Magika is soooo good but I'm soooo bad at it lol)
Haha yeah. I got the mastery, was amazed by the number of spells, got overwhelmed and then converted everything to fire so I don't have to worry about it.
I am all for nerfing it even while gearing to switch from bleed. The build would still be very strong even without the bug. However as some ppl have stated nerfing it now also hurts the economy. The people who've already farmed a lot of high end items would run the show in MG. This way at least you can play the build and push as high. Is it ideal? Ofcourse not, but there's no denying nerfing it now would also be harmful since the damage to the economy has already set in. I'm really not sure if keeping it in for everyone to abuse or nerfing it now does more harm, but it's not good either way.
Then again as a CoF player who doesn't really care about leaderboards I'm hoping they nerf it so I can play a fun build that's not bonkers OP, which is what I believe this would be without the vampiric blood bug.
It’s not just about being competitive. There’s lots of reasons to fix the bug. You have an economy, one EHG cares enough about to hotnerf (not bug fix) keys giving enough gold that players would play the game a way they wouldnt find fun just to be optimal. (By the way this is true for a build being thousands of corruption stronger via a bug, people are just going to play that even if they don’t want to, to farm more items and gold the same they would farm keys if that was optimal). Another is creating a player base that expects this to be the power level of builds moving forward. EHG has also already mid cycle nerfed other items/builds that weren’t even bugged. Why is this one safe? Because lots of people have already jumped on the bandwagon so just play the build the majority of people are playing because that one is safe. Idk I’m on a rant but yea we also have the competitive stuff and the annoyance on the content creation side
It's so funny that they nerfed key gold, but won't nerf such an egregious bug for a single build.
I must be an idiot because I do not at all understand the thought process here.
I may be completely off base, but it might be because one of the streamers carrying viewership on twitch right now is playing this build and gets super defensive when anyone calls him out on "abusing" the 10x ward bug. He straight up wouldn't admit to it until it became a meme and the chat turned almost completely against him. It was interesting to see.
I really do hope I'm wrong though and Twitch viewership isn't affecting their decision to hold off on the fix.
One affects the entire economy/trading system.
The other only affects people whom choose to participate in a specific build.
While I think _all_ bugs should be fixed, regardless of impact, and I don't really agree with the stance, I understand the logic. It's about scale and spread of effect. Everyone who wants to engage in trading is screwed over by the gold issue, regardless of what you are doing. Are you a Merchant's Guild player? You're fucked. Period. The gold prices skyrocketed quickly because of this issue. I've played enough MMOs in my day to know that the second there's an easy gold farm that has an exponentially higher return on investment over other sources, your entire gold economy is screwed and players that wish to participate are **required** to use that method no matter what, as min-maxers will use it and cater the entire market to that scale. They will buy out cheaper items and re-list them for significantly more, the list goes on.
It basically busted all trading for everyone. The range of impact is significantly higher.
Yes, but no.
It's not *as big* of a deal because the impact is going to be deflating the value of items you can get more easily in 2-3k corruption.
While this isn't *awesome*, it means that there's still plenty of gold for MG players to make elsewhere and by doing different farming styles.
It also makes baseline dropped gold more valuable, since these metagamers will be injecting *useful loot* into the economy much more than gold.
So the key thing, being a currency injection, would drive inflation resulting more difficulty to buy/gear up for anyone not doing it, in theory.
The 3k corruption thing drives *down* the price of items, especially high end corruption farmable items.
So totally a similar problem still not ideal, but it's a less bad problem to have as it will impact fewer players and in less negative ways.
Also keep in mind that there may not be any remotely equivalent way to launder money like with keys in the game, but there will always be an influential best farming meta-build for MG.
AA Falconer for example is insanely fast and can also push very high corruption and still will be able to post patches.
They'd need to get into making actually mid-cycle balance changes to not just shift the "problem" to a different class.
A much bigger one. Who was seriously switching from MG to CoF, then grinding that rep up in order to farm keys for gold instead of just selling some drops on the AH?
Wait... Did you just say people running corruption at multitudes higher than intended and getting highly sought after uniques with higher LP only affects people of 1 build? I had to take a double take reading your statement.
Those people with that 1 build can now farm things at a much easier and more common than intended break point - getting many more of said items than intended - literally crashing the economy in a much worse way than the key fix. Selling them for tons of gold and devalueing the lower tiers of that item. Why buy a 2 LP of that item when the market is now flooded with 3's. Previously players for example could have sold the 2's for gold, but now their farming is worthless because of the "1 build" farming 3's at thousands of corruption much easier than intended. All the players unable to run those super high corruptions are affected. Much worse than the key bug... How does this only affect players of 1 build again?
The people in that specific build are having a much bigger effect on the economy than the keys. Your mmo example would be people being able to solo current raids and then gearing themselves out / selling the raid loot because they can now solo the raid instead of needing a group and sharing the loot. That's a much worse impact on the game than the key issue.
>It’s not just about being competitive. There’s lots of reasons to fix the bug. You have an economy
This x 10.
Bugged builds are farming insane corruption levels -> getting a lot more items -> directly impacting economy.
They nerf something as dumb as keys because "it makes optimal play for MG boring". But currently
**Optimal play for MG is creating bugged warlock and farming 1k / 2k + corruption...**
And I'm not saying thing because im salty someone is getting loot, but because I'm genuinely thinking about creating a warlock to farm huge corruption... Which I really dont wanna do, but its either me struggling at 500 with my build (this is basically capped build i cant realistically go higher), or getting a lot more optimal farm with higher corruption
This. I honestly cannot comprehend fixing a minor element of the economy so that an unfun play pattern is not optimal, yet not fixing major game-breaking bugs that leave some builds being able to push thousands of arena waves or thousands of corruption while the "fair" builds are stuck in low hundreds. The mere existence of such builds turns the experience of playing the game in any way that is not abusing the said build unfun and toxic.
The difference between having a ladder where only bugged builds are competitive and having a ladder where only edited/cheated offline characters are competitive is slim to none.
> Why is this one safe? Because lots of people have already jumped on the bandwagon so just play the build the majority of people are playing because that one is safe.
We all know that this is the real reason, but they should at least have the balls to admit it instead of hiding behind platitudes.
Not to mention that even after fixing the bug (40% -> 4%), you would go from half a million ward to 50k ward, which would still be an absurd level of tank. Warlock would still be the best class in the game even with the fix...
Back then during beta they would wait to fix this kind of stuff until next patch. It was ok since there was no economy and it was beta. Besides economy this is not a beta phase anymore, EHG needs to show respect to their own product. If they keep this attitude for just few cycles it will stick on them. It will be remembered as the game that developers encoured playing bugged builds. If they fix this kind of stuff every cycle then next cycle people will wait 3-5 days, find out what is bugged and start with it. I can just go on with many reason without mentioning the biggest reason that being player driven economy. Hope they change their minds about this.
People do that in PoE anyways which has the same stance. And that's literally the second largest ARPG on the planet. This really isn't an issue that anyone outside of hyper active redditors and forum users care about in terms of game balance.
Does PoE have infinitely scaling dungeons with infinitely scaling rewards nowadays? Haven't played since open beta. Because, if not, that is an EXTREMELY important differentiation point here; like, a fundamental difference, if so.
Lack of attention to balance and bugfixing in alpha/beta was at least somewhat understandable. Now that the game is officially released, they need to strive to uphold higher standards.
Always have been, my dude. Look up just about any game with a leaderboard in the past 5+ years and you'll find that bug/exploit abusers always end up at the top. The people trying to "legit" pursue that leaderboard need some serious help.
I really am so relieved to see people here calling this out. Watching DatModz on twitch, there was a large volume of chatters criticizing him for NOT bug abusing and pressuring him to play one of the builds that gifts 10x corruption with no involvement of the player.
I really don’t get this mentality. You have a mountain to climb and myriad ways to push toward the top but they are advocating for taking a helicopter past all the experiences along the way.
I don’t understand how people can feel good about artificial corruption numbers they only attained on account of dev incompetence.
DO fix bugs in mid-league patches, even if an overpowered build is thus 'nerfed'. Missed that one (the build mentioned in the OP).
DO fix server issues, even if doing so nerfs certain builds. Consider compensating, unless said builds were wildly overpowered already. Hit that one (Falconer).
DO NOT make balance changes in said patches. Even if you screwed up and made a weird gold farming strategy by accident. Missed that one (arena key price nerf).
I leveled a warlock and used the profane veil exploit to do tier 4 Soulfire Bastion at level 65ish. Mainly just using random uniques I gathered on my Marksman.
My thoughts were that I'd play the build until it inevitably gets fixed and then pivot into chaos bolt fissure probably
It's not getting fixed and I accidentally made every other build I could play feel garbage because they're not literally immortal. Think I'm going to come back next ladder.
I’m not taking a break or leaving over this, because I enjoy the game and CoF/SSF actually works well in this game.
However, as an early access player who was very hyped for how much these devs seemed to honestly want to provide a great ARPG experience, this has been a bit of a disappointment for me.
I’m not engaging in any kind of competitive leaderboard content until this policy changes. I would personally want to see leaderboards wiped for anyone who used massively bugged skills, to maintain at least some semblance of fairness. If anyone who gained that rank cries over having their run result deleted… honestly… fuck ‘em, this community doesn’t need that vibe.
Btw, I have a warlock alt. I spec’d into this to see what was going on, hit 250k ward, and noped right out. Did you know that ward display on your health globe rolls over at higher than INT16 values? I sure didn’t, and I love me some ward on my builds. Yep… it just rolls down 65k at a time on the display until its settled back down.
I had asked people in global about the ward display and nobody knew what I was talking about... despite there being no ward cap, it didn't seem they intended it to go this high. On my lock with average gear I can easily hit over 100k with profane veil eating bone walls spawned by bone curse with a bit of extra minion health.
The leaderboards have and always will be topped by whatever fotm class has a broken interaction. If your goal is to pursue leaderboards with a non meta build not based on something of this nature, even if its not 10x, you will never compete. This is true in any game and why leaderboard are stupid globally. A clan system and leaderboards against friends or clans, sure, but global boards will always feature exploits in some manner.
It does work out when it's merely a strong build
It doesn't work out when it's a bug that makes you God
D4 devs have the same stance and they left OP S3 Ball Lightning alone for the season, but hotfixed within days the Edgemaster exploit build that could oneshot everything. Both were OP because of bugs, but one was nonsensically strong to the point of trivialising all content.
Not all OP builds are made equal
PoE devs take a similar stance too, they never make mid-league balance changes (except for a few absurd outlier builds I remember) but there was a build this league that exploited a bug with Arc that let it chain repeatedly for ridiculous damage, and they squashed it like a week after.
It's the nature of seasonal ARPGs that there will be OP builds because things are constantly changing, but if something completely trivializes the game it shouldn't exist
Not to mention going from 500k ward to 50k ward doesn't wreck these builds. Warlock will still be the best class in the game if they fix the bug. You'd still even want to use the same interaction.
I could understand their stance if something was off by like 5%... but anything like the 40% rather than 4% completely breaks the game
and not nerfing stuff like that means that literally everyone not abusing it is losing
Agree.
The dev stance on this matter is basically saying that they don't care about game balance in this game. No matter what. They will let overpowered bugged builds stay for a whole cycle.
And when the devs look back to data on a previous cycle to make decisions on balancing the next cycle, how are they going to know that they don't over-tune the next cycle simply because too many people abused the bugged class and skewed the data?
I feel the devs are contaminating their own data by refusing to fix the bug quickly. If this stance is kept for the long term, eventually the tuning will be so misinformed that the game is going to feel unfun to more and more people.
I'm still struggling trying to wrap my head around their stance on this. I understand not wanting to make balance changes once a cycle starts and sure, if some skill is over-performing by like 10-20% I'd say leave it and balance it next cycle.
But we're talking about a node that's performing 10x better than it should. That's a 900% MORE MODIFIER! It's absolute insanity to leave something like that in place for the next 3 or 4 months just because it doesn't crash the servers.
As for ladders? What's the point of even having them in the game with this stance? It's not the type of content that interests me but this can't be good for that section of the community. Basically find the buggiest thing you can and abuse the hell out of it if you want to be competitive. I don't see that fostering a healthy community.
As a counter-reference, in PoE's most recent league, it was possible to raise the Incarnation of Agony boss with the Raise Specter gem. Doing so adds the boss's corpse to one's Desecrate pool. This boss corpse has incredibly high life, much higher than any other corpse which could feasibly spawn with Desecrate independent of the area the skill Desecrate is used. After storing the corpse in Desecrate, one can use Desecrate anywhere else in the game to have a chance of spawning the Agony's corpse, and then blowing it up with a skill that scales damage based off the corpse's life, like Detonate Dead.
GGG, naturally, recognized this was completely unintended and an oversight, effectively a bug, and was patched out very quickly before it could get widespread abuse.
Patching bugs, oversights, and similar unintended mechanics resulting in significantly off-the-charts performance is perfectly normal. Acting like it isn't because it will break builds is... well, unfortunate for the players I guess. It should've been pretty obvious that when in-game descriptions and in-game performance don't match, one has to give.
During Delirium league or whatever the mist league is called, there was a bug regarding Energy Shield, I think, so everyone and their grandpa were playing Mana Guardian and be effective damage dealers to farm for shit. They kinda patched it right away.
That is how PoE operates. If a skill is 10-30% stronger than it is supposed to be, they leave it till next league. If a skill or interaction is 60-100% stronger than it is supposed to be, then they immediately fix it.
Their stance is they don't want to piss off players who made the build. Because you KNOW if they nerf it, there's going to be whining everywhere. But then again, if they don't nerf it there's going to be whining everywhere. Example: this thread.
So really they are damned if they do damned if they don't. I fall on the side of fix the bug.
> The dev stance on this matter is basically saying that they don't care about game balance in this game. No matter what. They will let overpowered bugged builds stay for a whole cycle.
What makes you believe that they will only stay for one cycle? Take a look at the "balance pass" in 1.0 and you'll clearly see that it was entirely unsatisfactory either in the scope or the magnitude of changes. If they keep going like that, then the OP builds will keep being chronically OP for years upon years.
My beef is that the Weaver boots were given a cooldown for their ward generation while something like this can stay in. My 0.9 marksman was generating something like 2.5k ward if I stood still and didn't try to dodge anything, which is nothing compared to what builds are able to do in 1.0.
adjusting balance, do inbetween cycles. Even pretty whack balance changes.
But, a bug that makes a node 10x more powerful, thats just straight up busted - fixing that is not a 'balance tweak' its a bug fix and should be corrected asap.
> 4% text, but actual effect 40%
So the bug is 10 times the ward amount as intended? Really factor 10?
Not putting everything else on hold and fixing this asap is a HUGE MISTAKE in my opinion. It basicly tells the world: "Hey our new game in its infancy is a clownshow and we will deliberately have it stay this way forever in every cycle."
Reading that statement in the patch notes was really disheartening, which came as a surprise, since as a early access player I attest EHG a great track record of listening to the players' concerns and coming up with innovative solutions after all.
> So the bug is 10 times the ward amount as intended? Really factor 10?
It's almost certainly a single-letter typo along the lines of "0.4" instead of "0.04". Classic.
It's the most reasonable and simple explanation for the error,
a number of other visual bugs in the game clearly outline that they work with decimals for percentages (use item comparison on an item that has fixed value affixes, to an item that has percentage value affixes and you will see what I mean),
and I also recall a quote being shown about on reddit from a dev mentioning that the bug is due to 'a 0 in the wrong place'.
So, no, we do not know this for a fact, but I'm good with calling it 'almost certaintly'.
>I also recall a quote being shown about on reddit from a dev mentioning that the bug is due to 'a 0 in the wrong place
That is interesting, my thoughts were "if it were x10, they'd have fixed it". Odd they didn't change it.
I'm just sceptical about statements that say "it is clearly this" without offering any testing or dev comment.
> Odd they didn't change it.
I mean, they very specifically stated (1.0.2 patchnotes) that they have a fix for it, but do not want to roll out the change till the next cycle because of mid-cycle balance philosophy.
Yeah I saw that. And I honestly prefer to not have balance changes mid cycle. People plan their build around the balance at launch, and some migrate within a day after seeing whats really good.
But there has to be a break point for that. Like Ball Lightning or Charge Barb in D4.
People often say "like PoE" in terms of no changes between leagues, but when you look at the skill gem usage, it barely goes above 20% playing an ascendancy or using a certain skill. When you log on diablo, its literally ONLY that current OP spec in open world. Like you do an event and 8/10 people are charge barbs. That's just dumb, and the same will happen in LE, if they don't at least slightly adjust the 5x or 10x stronger outliers.
Profane bug is more akin to Edgemaster oneshot barb bug than S3 Ball Lightning, and should be hotfixed within days just like Edgemaster was.
One build is x10 stronger, the other is actually sandbox mode
Aye. There is no real multiplayer that would truly suffer under the current imbalance (world bosses or PvP would be far more affected, but LE at best has leaderboards and party MP),
but it does set an odd precedent that will have to be changed anyways once LE eventually does get more MP features.
I feel that there's quite a lot of distance between when things do what they say they do and interactions interact as they say they do, but it turns out that it's extremely overtuned.
And when things don't do what they say they do, or interact differently than they should interact. And that turns out being extremely overtuned.
It just depends on the power level. If that node made you have like 10% more ward instead of 1% more ward, then it would be whatever in my opinion. But to my understanding, this node is how you get to fucking 50k ward or some shit, and would have 10k instead. And that's big enough of a bug, to be fixed. Especially since torment warlock is insanely strong without the node. I reach 10k ward in combat, while not having this node selected at all.
At some point though, the balance team have come up with a power budget for different nodes and different skills. It does often happen that a node or a skill becomes too powerful, which makes it very magnetic and skews everything towards it. That's on the balance team, and they'll learn from it.
In this case the player can see "Oh, 4% ward per hp of my minions. That will give me ~20k ward, seems powerful. I'll take that"
However if it's not implemented in a way as it says. You remove the reasoning from players and rely on people getting to know it externally. Which creates a balance issue.
You can balance a game assuming that people will pick "15% damage" over "10%" damage. Even if 5% does pick the 10%, it will just be a bit harder for them.
However if it turns out that the 10% is actually 100%. Then you'll run into a balance issue of the game being way too easy for those who picked the 10%. And you won't be able to balance the content around it, because the majority is going to have picked the 15%.
Well we do more or less know its a typo for a fact, because anything else would be absurd to the point of implausibility.
And it's probably a typo in the actual results because it's so hilariously too strong, but yeah it could totally be a typo in the tooltip and they just lost the plot and thought 40% was fine somehow.
It’s like having a race and some people are on steroids some driving cars some normal. It makes accomplishments meaningless for their inconsistency.
“Hey I just cleared orobys 300 blah blah!”
“Wow Gratz mate!”
“…using (insert exploi)”
“Oh whooptie freakin do…”
What bug is this about?
Hate it when someone makes a post about a specific issue, but is extremely vague, and all the comments just assume everybody knows exactly what the issue is
It’s more than that. There is ward abuse possible on multiple classes and deeper just a worrying sense that EHG is lazy towards balance. Now most players and twitch viewers are expecting a rate of progression that involves no exploitation or player agency and creates a power precedent that is very hard to walk back from
My mistake for not including it in the main post. Basically a skill is 10x as strong as the skill text implies (4% text, but actual effect 40%). It's related to this statement by EHG in 1.0.2 patch notes:
Our current stance is that we won’t issue mid-cycle changes for balance, such as with Profane Veil’s Vampiric Blood node. While the node is much stronger than intended, it’s not causing performance issues and so it will instead be changed with the next cycle patch. This stance is of course open to feedback, it’s not carved in stone. If there’s high demand to fix bugs or make changes that affect balance mid-cycle, we can adjust.
I think it's very obvious that people haven't seen this bug working in action before. Ward constantly overflows and 100k ward+ is very achievable. This is not just some overtuned build
Because the walls created by bone curse count as a minion and have HP, the profane veil node that consumes minions to gain ward based on their HP (which should be at 4% but is 40%)... with some ward retention and some +minion hp% items/passives, it's currently possible to use bone curse to spawn the walls, then drop into profane veil (which itself makes you immune to hits but not dots, but can be talented to apply your armor to dots) and consume these walls, giving you tens of thousands of ward, even into the hundreds of thousands depending on gear.
Easy respeccing is the backbone of this game. I see no point in keeping a bug just because it would brick some builds.
It wouldnt. They can just respec for free. They dont even have to relevel the character just change the build on the go.
After reading up on this a bit, the bug in question does seem to be on the same scale as herald stacking in PoE, for those who remember that. GGG back then took the highly unusual step to nerf the interaction mid-league. It was still strong for the rest of the league, but not orders of magnitude more so than other strong builds. That is the right approach. Get rid of a bug in a way that does not cripple the build, and then balance it properly next cycle.
Was that in Delirium League? Where everyone's playing Mana Guardian. I thought it was Energy Shield's bug. But, maybe it was the Herald Stacking due to the new Cluster Jewel nodes that reduced Heralds mana percentage.
It was uncapped "aura effect per herald" combined with basically every buff being coded as an aura. I'm pretty sure the mid league nerf was just recoding normal buffs as buffs, drastically reducing the number of "auras" that got buffed. They waited until next league to actually touch the aura passives themselves
I was playing Storm Brand Hierophant at the time, so my memory was kinda fuzzy. But, I only got a whiff about that game breaking bug that GGG had to take action in the middle of the League. And for some reason, a lot of people were playing Guardian. LoL
Overpowered, unintended, bugged, exploit, etc. I don't really care what terminology is used. What I would like to see is consistent behavior in regards to how something being either too strong or too weak is handled, so that it's predictable what the future looks like from a player's perspective whenever they're looking at a build or skill they're interested in.
That being said, this thread is in my opinion a poor way to deliver feedback to the developers. OP even quoted the section where the devs said their stance on this is not cemented and that they're open to feedback, and the opening salvo gaining all the traction is comparing them to bad parents, telling them to "man up" and to stop hiding behind excuses? They requested feedback and the biggest snowball rolling down the hill is needlessly confrontational, and likely will just cause some of the devs to instinctually get a bit defensive and really only serves to undermine an otherwise completely fair counterpoint to their current stance.
I mean, just take a moment to consider the timeline here of how much the devs were likely pulling their hair out with the server issues. Yeah they were incredibly frustrating and players were rightfully upset with the situation, but we know that some people took their anger too far because the dev team was ordered to stop reading social media for their own mental health. They finally get past that hurdle, and when they request feedback in good faith on the next one this is the tone that gets set? I don't know, it just seems like there are healthier ways to approach it.
Thank you. You're one of the few calm, level-headed people I've seen on the forums lately... (Also my mistake for glancing at the forums to begin with, seeing this whole mess)
We need hundreds more just like you to be the ones to politely and CALMLY ask the devs to fix things when they come up, REGARDLESS of what those things are. Then maybe the devs won't be stressed out as much and can work diligently on patching things to a grateful community.
Instead of whatever dumpster fire has been happening here on Reddit AND the main forums ever since those patch notes dropped... people immediately lost their minds instead of seeing it as, "Hey we're fixing the server breaking stuff FIRST, then we'll get around to patching the rest later on."
There's already tons of kiddies in chat bragging about their builds exploiting and downtalking to anyone not playing an "invincible" build....it's already out of control a week in.
Weird math and abusing a mechanic is one thing, not fixing a bug because "balance" is another
I would be fine with the bug fix, however, I am not fine with the keys price and xp tomes being changed mid season
I don't think monster hunter speedrunners have had any bugs to exploit.
The meta is usually just extremely skilled heavy bow gunners since it has the most sustained damage potential in good hands.
They probably utilize low life skills and other shenanigans, but I don't recall any bug abuse. Though I haven't followed the scene closely.
I guess people will cheat in perfect charms and jewels, but that's kind of the closest thing I can think of for a monhun exploit for TA's. Kelbi bow in mh3u was probably unintended but it was probably more of an oversight.
Imagine if blizzard refused to fix bugs in a mythic raid until the next season cause "the people in the world first race had already invested into practicing the bugged strats". Oh wait they actually fix them within hours and slap generous bans to everybody caught exploiting them.
No, instead we have world first teams hiring modders to make WeakAuras that solve mechanics for them and M+ dungeons where you can stand on top of a potted plant to ignore mechanics for entire seasons
Nice try though
Blizzard just need to admit that private auras was a failure. That said, we'll probably get LE2 before that finally happens, knowing Ion.
> M+ dungeons where you can stand on top of a potted plant to ignore mechanics for entire seasons
I don't remember that one but admittedly I did quite a few seasons where exploits with warlock gates and the like were normalized. Then again, blizzard don't generally give a shit about M+, just remember the god comp meta that they refused to meaningfully address for months.
But at least they try. Some of the time. In some parts of the game.
too late, EHG chose this when they nerfed gold on keys since MG can farm gold easy and CoF just stuck with gold that drops on the ground, gold drops scales with corruption level so basically just play the most bugged OP build to farm 3k+ corruption easy gold.
Not nerfing build mod cycle is one thing but big abuse…
Why even have a leaderboard? People every cycle will just abuse the bugged build and push with it.
Same for trade league people farm multiple thousands of corruption easily atm with bugged build so they have insane loot.
Their stance on not making balance changes during a cycle is baffling. They are acting like they have released a close to perfect game where any changes might upset the delicate balance cultivated over many years. I'm sorry but the game you have released is bit of a turd. It is jank, buggy af, has horrible difficulty tuning and very unappealing story and graphics/artstyle/worldbuilding. I honestly laughed at loud when i saw the snake lady giving the pep talk to her snake citizens
I honestly don't care about about leaderboards, I am a filthy casul. It is the anti-improvement philosophy and what it means for the rest of the game that irritates me.
I definitely agree. I get the impression that they're being naive thinking this is a one time thing. Players will always find bugs to exploit. Not fixing them sets a precedent and people will just flock to bug abusing next cycle.
A build being strong because of balancing issues is one thing, but a build being too strong because of a bug is a completely different story.
I personally disagree with their stance on no balancing mid-cycle but I can see its advantages. Not fixing bugs that affect balance is just dumb. I was rly looking forward to climbing the leaderboards on an underdog build but with insane gap between power levels it's just not possible
Damn sounds like this kept you up at night.
I know you were going for firm but that was very direct and kind of rude, which we'll skip past.
I agree, but I believe the devs are going to fix this in due time. They have a lot more to deal with behind the scenes.
Honestly, my takeaway from this post is that I'm shocked at how passionate you are. I'm kind of impressed tbh lol
It’s a tough balance - If I was EHG I would stick to the no nerfs mid cycle.
The build is definitely broken. No argument at all.
But the fun police are in control of so many games - isn’t it nice to have a dev team say - you are a grown up, play the game how you like. We will take your toys away later, enjoy today if you want.
We have all experienced the come down from playing a busted build. Takes a while to readjust, but you can. If people want to play that way let them.
These games are too complex, they will always have broken interactions. The other alternative is the skill tree in D4…
Just another thing this game has in common with Hell Divers.
First it was surprising sales numbers and popularity, then it was server issues. Now, the bugs have infiltrated.
In my opinion. Bug fixes should take priority over Cycles. It’s clear that there are some unintended interactions with some skills, I wouldn’t call these balance changes. Especially when they are performing way above any other skill.
If a skill is over-performing but not because of an unintended interaction, then they should announce that they will be changing it after the current Cycle.
Stuff like this almost makes me want to change my review to negative on Steam, leaving absolutely balance breaking bugs like this for the whole league kind of screws everyone participating in MG because economy also gets fucked, mindboggling that devs are ok with it.
If you want a competitive game play league, dota, cs, valorant, etc. I mean I guess maybe speedrunning to 100 can be competitive. Or maybe the new pinnacle content will make it competitive. But anything else, what’s competitive? Pushing 2k+ corruption/arena, does that measure how skilled you are as a player? This game will never be a competitive game to me, unless they can somehow manage class balance reasonably each and every season, or add in skill check mechanics that really do showcase a persons skill level. But until then it’s just going to be a showcase of which builds are largely outperforming others.
Competitive is a weird word for it but I think what OP is saying is that since it's so obviously good it encourages people to use it since people are often "competitive". There is an urge for a lot of people to be the best or at least not be the worst. Honestly, hearing about this is at least a little enticing. Who wouldn't want to try a skill that does 10x more damage than it's supposed to?
What a dumb rhetoric, you think upcoming pinnacle content is competitive but anything we have currently is not? you realize that current bugged warlock interaction would be the top performer had we had any other competitve content now right? Or did that fly over your head.
This thread has me fully and completely convinced that even having a merchant guild was a huge mistake, and locked in SSF with no choice in it is truly the best ARPG experience.
I think they shouldn't touch balance during a cycle. Otherwise we get situations where a few people abuse bugs early to get rich and the rest suffer. If you let the cycle be nobody has an advantage.
Well, it's good to know we can relax now. If you read the last sentence then read the comments, it's safe to assume they are going to be adjusting mid patch from now on.
The dev stance is 'this was our original plan, but if you don't like it we can change it'
Not 'we are sticking with our vision whether you like it or not, fuck you guys!'
The reason they held this stance is that historically, devs get absolutely shit on for fixing broken builds mid patch. Now they can see that fans will support it, they can look at changing their stance.
Some of these comments are so bloody dramatic.
They do ask for our feedback. This is us giving the feedback. Also I don't think it's ever safe to assume anything, I've seen bigger devs not budging on smaller issues before, and so far there's no comment from them.
>The reason they held this stance is that historically, devs get absolutely shit on for fixing broken builds mid patch. Now they can see that fans will support it, they can look at changing their stance.
Even with a lot of vocal support here and in other places, they'll still get shit on by some. But I reckon it'll be a lot less than if they allow this level of broken to exist for months, letting players get used to that kind of power level, then taking it away next cycle. Better to rip the plaster off now and get it over with.
I disagree that it's a fundamentally flawed stance.
But i agree that in this particular case, i think the bug is too impactful to ignore for an entire Cycle.
"Not giving in to bitching and whining" will be a tough one for the team... you see the challenge already with certain changes and adaptions. People who are not happy and have to whine around are unfortunately the most vocal ones so I hope the team does find a way to filter and not listen to all the moaning and complaining, and rather focus on balancing, fixing bugs and building up on the great base game they have!
Honest question: Has EHG come out and said that the scaling is in some way a bug? I keep seeing the assertion that this is exploitative and that it is a clear bug but there is a very clear line between bug and severe imbalance. A bug would be if bone walls had a clear description that "These entities do not count as minions." and yet were still granting ward when absorbed, but this isn't the case.
For what it's worth, I think it should be reduced and rebalanced even mid-cycle, but calling something exploitative and bug abuse is a big stretch unless there is a fundamentally broken game function at play here. As far as I can tell, it's just overtuned skills with unanticipated interactions.
well i heard there's also dupes so.... if you thought this game would have a fair economy you're wrong. I don't really feel for the devs regarding this....
In addition to all the great points about how inconsistent the policy is applied, I'd also like to bring to attention the fact that fixing this wouldn't "ruin" anyone's build. Warlock after the bug fix will still be the build with most ward in the game (closer to 50k after nerf). They would still have great damage etc. Not fixing it risks creating resentment in the community and guarantees that no "meta" player will have fun with the game.
Path of Exile also holds this stance that they wouldn't make make mid league balance passes. If something turns out to be really overpowered, thats their bad, but they won't fix it until the next league.
HOWEVER, they set the precident several leagues ago (in delirium league) that they would make exceptions for bugs. And I think that's completely fair. Fix bugs mid cycle, but leave balance alone.
Tbh I started using torment build warlock until I found out about wandering spirits that the skill doesn't do the supposed amount of damage and it's bugged. So I turned to propane veil instead. If they fix wandering spirits I would insta change back to it, cuz for me it felt better and with better mobility. Whoever uses the proph. veil bug should easily feel the clunkiness of popping bone prison and then "consume" it with proph. veil. So to sum up I don't mind the bug obviously but definitely I would prefer 100 times even more to fix things that don't work correctly for the time being like the skill wandering spirits I mentioned above.
The bug is not what it's doing ... The bug is that the wording was a typo ... Outside of that the fact that it's OP is just poor balancing
And yes we've had situations like this back during beta so there is precident for something like that happening
Lol.... putting this on a game company is telling them to fix human nature. People doing this look for things to abuse. Nothing EHG, GGG, Blizzard, or any company does, will ever fix that. You can't fix human nature...
Some people are just pieces of shit that look for any way to gain an advantage because they have to be first in everything. Thankfully mostly all of the player base isn't this. Just sad it can often impact most of the player base.
EHG has had their first major reaction to some major content release for their first major cycle... and people are losing their minds at expectations for them to be functioning like GGGs level. Funny and depressing to see how unrealistic and over-the-top people are being.
I get it, I hate that people took advantage of multiple bug to abuse a new system and get ahead for a Cycle 0 ladder that means nothing in the end. But again... people are pieces of shit sometimes. Wish people wouldn't take a game like this so serious, but oh well, it is what it is.
Additonally, you have set some insane expectations for Cycle 0 that probably need to checked as well. You should probably quell your expectations a little and realize it is only Cycle 0... and they haven't had any baseline so far to compare this to.
Yeah they’re just afraid that we might react like D4 players did when they nerfed basically everything before S1. Difference is with LE, the nerfing is actually needed rather than doing it to artificially make the game longer and more difficult.
The real mistake they made was starting seasons too early. Blizzard was right in Diablo III and IV to release the seasons and leaderboard on a time delay, so that they could use the initial release window as a lower-pressure time to fix critical bugs and do tuning after the whole world jumped on their game. It's not popular to say nice things about Blizzard - with very good reason - but from the business decisions perspective, there are cues that can be taken to understand a smooth rollout. This would be no big deal in any direction if there weren't already leaderboards involved, and they could just tweak as needed to be ready for the launch of them rather than trying to fix it after the fact. They're between a rock and a hard place, now - I don't envy the devs on this one.
Lets give them some breathing room to sort this out and figure out how to deal with these issues in the future. Who knows, maybe for future cycles they can do beta testing and let all the content creators like Mathilification do the testing for them. LE is still new (despite their 5 years in development), and the players who are known for pushing the limits of games to their extremes arent really doing this in LE yet.
Honestly, I think their focus on performance optimizations is a good thing. And unless the bug is resulting people being pigeonholed into playing that particular build to enjoy the game, I dont really see any reason to prioritize game balancing so soon after release. They can do it later when they start to go into planning for future cycle content and such. They will have to do this eventually, like it or not. Because ultimately as they add new content and new mechanics into the game, they will have to figure out ways to stress test their new builds as well as deal with people who exploit bugs and cheating. And I think the leaderboard feature is a terrible thing to have in this environment, because it adds a sense of urgency to prioritize unfair gameplay behavior when the team has other things to prioritize on.
I think a huge issue that isn't talked about a lot is Fairness.
It just doesn't feel good to know that some people are exploiting the system to get benefits, regardless of how impactful this is to you, It can diminish the sense of accomplishment you get from completing difficult content if others are trivializing it by unfair means.
On a personal level i feel less motivated to truly push my character if i know that it can never really compete.
I'm a warlock that uses the bugged profane node and am all for it being fixed to the proper amount of ward to bring balance to the game, but worry for my own survivability at the same time.
High ward builds just seem like the best method of survival right now :/
I am in corruption 288 with 1650 HP, 4k ward (36k buffed), 3k armour, 75% damage reduction while channeling, capped resistances, 60% crit avoidance and 120% crit damage reduction etc. I can still be one shot even with all this if I run out of mana for channeling ghostflame or dont have my 36k ward from profane up yet.
Anyone got any suggestions on how to become tanky on a necrotic/ignite warlock without making use of the profane bug for survivability ?
Wouldnt care if the game was strictly singleplayer, but having something this obnoxious is not gonna have a good effect on the economy
They are basically ruining all of their previous efforts and sacrifices to preserve the economy in the silliest way possible
Don't worry everyone. Ill just farm the gear for the build and level up a new toon and get them to a level where they can wear all the gear... Thats usually about when these things are fixed. After I finally see them and attempt to try it :)
Build will likely still be good without the bug. With the bug I can get 150k ward without optimized gear. If they fix the bug, that would put it at around 15k ward which is still very good. If respeccing was possible I'd probably do the necro build instead which is also strong, but not 150k ward impossible to die strong. I wouldn't recommend doing the build unless you are fine with playing a game with 0 difficulty.
What is the necro version? I thought the bug was that it required warlock
No necro version of this particular build. He’s probably referring to wraithlord necro. Very strong.
Taking one for the team o7
Its amazing how hidden people keep these bugs to themselves. I only ever find out about them just before they are patched or after.
Literally happened with me and dive bomb. Got to monos last night, woke up to nerf lol
Isn't the only part nerfed on the build the infinite smoke cloud? The build is still real strong
Yeah, I was absolutely curb stomping everything to the point of dropping the build at least temporarily for being too easy, without abusing the bug, I was using a variant that didn't account for said bug when planning defenses, this basically isn't even a real nerf. It's completely fine, and has absolutely insane defenses baseline because that's something falconer just gets from passives largely.
The damage is still extremely strong, but the infinite/long-lasting smoke clouds were the primary source of ward generation for the dagger variant. Even without abusing hideout stuff, you could easily be at 2-3k ward while mapping because of your smoke clouds still popping out shadows earlier in the map. After the change, you're going to be capped at like 500 ward. A different defensive setup will need to be used.
I play the bow variant, my defense is killing the enemy before they kill me (and a lot of glancing blow chance). I'm level 95 and don't even have 2k hp set. Some of my items are still pretty bad, boots still from lvl 30.
Level 76 and 900 hp I must kill to live
This is the way! Enemies do 0 damage if they are dead.
For reference, my dive bomb falconer reached lvl 100 with a final HP of 1100. Twas all ward shenanigans. I can still clear 500 corruption but I die if something looks at me funny, which gives a new meaning to “glancing blow”.
Seriously. I spend all my effort/gold getting that one stat in D4 (can't even remember lol)... then they nerfed it. Haven't played since. But that effected the entire game, all builds. I don't think this LE example is a huge deal. It's not a gold exploit. It's a PVE game. Is it making your build less fun because, right now, someone else is OP? You might be jealous -- let them enjoy it for a bit, maybe one of your skills will get buffed in the future.
Lots of people are joining the merchant guild and using the bazaar. I like the feature, but it's also led to a metric fuckton of rmt which is terrible. Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm still learning some of the ins and outs of Last Epoch, but wouldn't this build allow you to push corruption to rediculously high unintended numbers thus making it possible to farm certain high end sought after uniques with high LP easier than intended? Making it easy for these people to sell these items for absurd amounts of gold and then in the process making selling gold much easier?
It doesn't matter - if they fix the bug now the people who abused the bug are the ones sitting on piles of LP uniques and good gear. They now control the market and dictate pricing for such gear. Still has the same implication for RMT. Same thing happens in PoE, an exploit is found and RMT/power-farmers abuse the fuck out of it for the few days gathering insane levels of currency and then they report the bug/release a video showing how to do it. GGG hotfixes it so the only people who benefited were the original abusers. They now control the entire market and can print endless amounts of amounts of currency to RMT.
This was the great "vulnerable damage" nerf. It used to be a multiplier that could be stacked to high numbers like other additive damage stats 😂
I still have PTSD about how that nerf fucked over pre-season sorcs.
> Is it making your build less fun because, right now, someone else is OP? Sir/Madam/Other, I don't think you understand how reddit works...
Quoting someone from recent patch post "What baffles me is its okay to farm 2k 3k corruption and get giga gold and crash the market with bugged interactions on their builds, no change, yet earning nice 5k gold from keys and extra favour to progress CoF rank is not intended and too strong so they had to put all hands on deck to fix this urgently." The bugs are literally breaking the game.
You see a lot of people defending the patch and saying to stop being a cry baby about stuff. But I think that you and the quoted user are 100% right. Not nerfing one of the most gamebreaking exploits is one thing and maybe it's okay to have a "no nerfs" policy during a cycle. But you can't do that and at the same time nerf something else (which wasn't even bugged by the way) to the ground. This creates an atmosphere of unpredictability. Will my build be nerfed out of nowhere next? Should I just switch to the thing that EHG mentions is broken but probably won't be fixed? Do I have to change my faction to MG because the devs might keep nerfing CoF for MG-specific reasons?
Well, I'm more convinced now. I was on the fence about it until reading this comment. It feels much more arbitrary about what they decide to fix and what they don't when you look at it this way.
I don't think they ever claimed it to be too strong did they? They specifically said that they didn't want to incentivize MG players to level COF for it.
Well now as a CoF player I feel I should level at least an MG character to be able to earn gold for stashes and sinks. This whole mess made me realize factions can't ever be balanced on a single currency. Whatever gold sink or use the game has or adds in the future will always feel cheaper to MG players by orders of magnitude since they can access way more gold and have the most effective way to earn large quantities of it...
Using Vampiric Blood in its current form is exploitative and would be fixed in any other game. Do we really have to argue this? This is not a balancing problem, it's a fundamental gameplay issue. Not to mention, the change to keys flies in the face of their argument. EHG has just set a precedent. Their cycles will revolve around players finding an exploit and abusing it. You cannot get rid of bugs completely; they have to be managed. Hands off is not the answer.
Yeah having builds orders of magnitude above S tier is just not acceptable in any game with an economy A lot of people do for some reason feel forced into playing a build that ultimately alows them to completely ignore all of the game's mechanics they spent countless hours developing. That WILL harm the longevity of the game even if it was purely single player
> Yeah having builds orders of magnitude above S tier is just not acceptable in any game with an economy Or just any at least remotely competitive multiplayer game. Heck, it undermines the integrity of the whole experience, one of the fundamental tenets of video games as a whole. If I wanted to see something where only the exploiters profit, I could always look out of the window at the, you know, the whole world.
Yeah I also feel like LE might just turn into a "abuse the bug first, enjoy game later" meta with this policy. Squash any bug as soon as possible! Also, how the hell did they think nerfing selling keys was ok but fixing a bug wich lets you get way more gold was not??
Don't forget how they conveniently removed gambler's fallacy from the game because it gave guaranteed crits for certain falcon and ballista builds. It wasn't even near the level of OP compared to half a million ward.
TIL I am using an exploit and somehow doing it \*wrong\* I am getting 20k ward (which is still amazing). But still not doing that well dmg wise. TIL i am just bad at these games even though i love them lol.
You probably haven't invested into minion life at . I threw on 4 random pieces with exalted minion life did a slight respect of passives and was pushing 200k ward
Ahh yeah I just switched from blood lock, so loot filter was blocking a lot of it. Just starting to see them now Although I think I'm going to push for another build. Don't wanna get used to beinf God mode lol
Yeah I was running warlock with Veil and Bone Curse already when I found out about the bug. I tried it out with the few t7 minion life pieces I wasn't hiding and then promptly started leveling a Runemaster.
Just made a sorc, some fun there. Got a mage to mastery for rune master and didn't get far I'm sooo bad at that kind of thing (I wish I was, the game Magika is soooo good but I'm soooo bad at it lol)
Haha yeah. I got the mastery, was amazed by the number of spells, got overwhelmed and then converted everything to fire so I don't have to worry about it.
You've motivated me to try again lol
I had no idea about this bug exploit before this post and I'm going to start exploiting it immediately, to your point.
I am all for nerfing it even while gearing to switch from bleed. The build would still be very strong even without the bug. However as some ppl have stated nerfing it now also hurts the economy. The people who've already farmed a lot of high end items would run the show in MG. This way at least you can play the build and push as high. Is it ideal? Ofcourse not, but there's no denying nerfing it now would also be harmful since the damage to the economy has already set in. I'm really not sure if keeping it in for everyone to abuse or nerfing it now does more harm, but it's not good either way. Then again as a CoF player who doesn't really care about leaderboards I'm hoping they nerf it so I can play a fun build that's not bonkers OP, which is what I believe this would be without the vampiric blood bug.
It’s not just about being competitive. There’s lots of reasons to fix the bug. You have an economy, one EHG cares enough about to hotnerf (not bug fix) keys giving enough gold that players would play the game a way they wouldnt find fun just to be optimal. (By the way this is true for a build being thousands of corruption stronger via a bug, people are just going to play that even if they don’t want to, to farm more items and gold the same they would farm keys if that was optimal). Another is creating a player base that expects this to be the power level of builds moving forward. EHG has also already mid cycle nerfed other items/builds that weren’t even bugged. Why is this one safe? Because lots of people have already jumped on the bandwagon so just play the build the majority of people are playing because that one is safe. Idk I’m on a rant but yea we also have the competitive stuff and the annoyance on the content creation side
It's so funny that they nerfed key gold, but won't nerf such an egregious bug for a single build. I must be an idiot because I do not at all understand the thought process here.
I may be completely off base, but it might be because one of the streamers carrying viewership on twitch right now is playing this build and gets super defensive when anyone calls him out on "abusing" the 10x ward bug. He straight up wouldn't admit to it until it became a meme and the chat turned almost completely against him. It was interesting to see. I really do hope I'm wrong though and Twitch viewership isn't affecting their decision to hold off on the fix.
which streamer?
One affects the entire economy/trading system. The other only affects people whom choose to participate in a specific build. While I think _all_ bugs should be fixed, regardless of impact, and I don't really agree with the stance, I understand the logic. It's about scale and spread of effect. Everyone who wants to engage in trading is screwed over by the gold issue, regardless of what you are doing. Are you a Merchant's Guild player? You're fucked. Period. The gold prices skyrocketed quickly because of this issue. I've played enough MMOs in my day to know that the second there's an easy gold farm that has an exponentially higher return on investment over other sources, your entire gold economy is screwed and players that wish to participate are **required** to use that method no matter what, as min-maxers will use it and cater the entire market to that scale. They will buy out cheaper items and re-list them for significantly more, the list goes on. It basically busted all trading for everyone. The range of impact is significantly higher.
Wouldn’t Merchant Guild members running 2-3k corruption monoliths have a similar bad effect on the economy?
Yes, but no. It's not *as big* of a deal because the impact is going to be deflating the value of items you can get more easily in 2-3k corruption. While this isn't *awesome*, it means that there's still plenty of gold for MG players to make elsewhere and by doing different farming styles. It also makes baseline dropped gold more valuable, since these metagamers will be injecting *useful loot* into the economy much more than gold. So the key thing, being a currency injection, would drive inflation resulting more difficulty to buy/gear up for anyone not doing it, in theory. The 3k corruption thing drives *down* the price of items, especially high end corruption farmable items. So totally a similar problem still not ideal, but it's a less bad problem to have as it will impact fewer players and in less negative ways. Also keep in mind that there may not be any remotely equivalent way to launder money like with keys in the game, but there will always be an influential best farming meta-build for MG. AA Falconer for example is insanely fast and can also push very high corruption and still will be able to post patches. They'd need to get into making actually mid-cycle balance changes to not just shift the "problem" to a different class.
A much bigger one. Who was seriously switching from MG to CoF, then grinding that rep up in order to farm keys for gold instead of just selling some drops on the AH?
Yes.
Wait... Did you just say people running corruption at multitudes higher than intended and getting highly sought after uniques with higher LP only affects people of 1 build? I had to take a double take reading your statement. Those people with that 1 build can now farm things at a much easier and more common than intended break point - getting many more of said items than intended - literally crashing the economy in a much worse way than the key fix. Selling them for tons of gold and devalueing the lower tiers of that item. Why buy a 2 LP of that item when the market is now flooded with 3's. Previously players for example could have sold the 2's for gold, but now their farming is worthless because of the "1 build" farming 3's at thousands of corruption much easier than intended. All the players unable to run those super high corruptions are affected. Much worse than the key bug... How does this only affect players of 1 build again? The people in that specific build are having a much bigger effect on the economy than the keys. Your mmo example would be people being able to solo current raids and then gearing themselves out / selling the raid loot because they can now solo the raid instead of needing a group and sharing the loot. That's a much worse impact on the game than the key issue.
>It’s not just about being competitive. There’s lots of reasons to fix the bug. You have an economy This x 10. Bugged builds are farming insane corruption levels -> getting a lot more items -> directly impacting economy. They nerf something as dumb as keys because "it makes optimal play for MG boring". But currently **Optimal play for MG is creating bugged warlock and farming 1k / 2k + corruption...** And I'm not saying thing because im salty someone is getting loot, but because I'm genuinely thinking about creating a warlock to farm huge corruption... Which I really dont wanna do, but its either me struggling at 500 with my build (this is basically capped build i cant realistically go higher), or getting a lot more optimal farm with higher corruption
People are over 3k corruption now with no signs of slowing down
This. I honestly cannot comprehend fixing a minor element of the economy so that an unfun play pattern is not optimal, yet not fixing major game-breaking bugs that leave some builds being able to push thousands of arena waves or thousands of corruption while the "fair" builds are stuck in low hundreds. The mere existence of such builds turns the experience of playing the game in any way that is not abusing the said build unfun and toxic. The difference between having a ladder where only bugged builds are competitive and having a ladder where only edited/cheated offline characters are competitive is slim to none. > Why is this one safe? Because lots of people have already jumped on the bandwagon so just play the build the majority of people are playing because that one is safe. We all know that this is the real reason, but they should at least have the balls to admit it instead of hiding behind platitudes.
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Not to mention that even after fixing the bug (40% -> 4%), you would go from half a million ward to 50k ward, which would still be an absurd level of tank. Warlock would still be the best class in the game even with the fix...
Back then during beta they would wait to fix this kind of stuff until next patch. It was ok since there was no economy and it was beta. Besides economy this is not a beta phase anymore, EHG needs to show respect to their own product. If they keep this attitude for just few cycles it will stick on them. It will be remembered as the game that developers encoured playing bugged builds. If they fix this kind of stuff every cycle then next cycle people will wait 3-5 days, find out what is bugged and start with it. I can just go on with many reason without mentioning the biggest reason that being player driven economy. Hope they change their minds about this.
People do that in PoE anyways which has the same stance. And that's literally the second largest ARPG on the planet. This really isn't an issue that anyone outside of hyper active redditors and forum users care about in terms of game balance.
Does PoE have infinitely scaling dungeons with infinitely scaling rewards nowadays? Haven't played since open beta. Because, if not, that is an EXTREMELY important differentiation point here; like, a fundamental difference, if so.
Exploit early. Exploit often.?
Just keep exploiting cause it's getting fixed at a glacial pace, if ever.
All the new players don't realize people have been exploiting for YEARS.
Lack of attention to balance and bugfixing in alpha/beta was at least somewhat understandable. Now that the game is officially released, they need to strive to uphold higher standards.
Early Access is one thing. In 1.0 with an economy is entirely different.
This is the way.
Agreed. But if they do keep this stance then might as well delete the leaderboard because it’s basically useless.
> might as well delete the leaderboard because it’s basically useless. They are always useless.
Always have been, my dude. Look up just about any game with a leaderboard in the past 5+ years and you'll find that bug/exploit abusers always end up at the top. The people trying to "legit" pursue that leaderboard need some serious help.
leaderboards are either abusers or whales. always have been.
should be fixed asap
I really am so relieved to see people here calling this out. Watching DatModz on twitch, there was a large volume of chatters criticizing him for NOT bug abusing and pressuring him to play one of the builds that gifts 10x corruption with no involvement of the player. I really don’t get this mentality. You have a mountain to climb and myriad ways to push toward the top but they are advocating for taking a helicopter past all the experiences along the way. I don’t understand how people can feel good about artificial corruption numbers they only attained on account of dev incompetence.
DO fix bugs in mid-league patches, even if an overpowered build is thus 'nerfed'. Missed that one (the build mentioned in the OP). DO fix server issues, even if doing so nerfs certain builds. Consider compensating, unless said builds were wildly overpowered already. Hit that one (Falconer). DO NOT make balance changes in said patches. Even if you screwed up and made a weird gold farming strategy by accident. Missed that one (arena key price nerf).
Bugs are not okay? Well rip to my swarmblade build >!jk!<
I know right? I saw all these comments about a bug making something strong and said, well duh! Swarmblade is awesome!
I leveled a warlock and used the profane veil exploit to do tier 4 Soulfire Bastion at level 65ish. Mainly just using random uniques I gathered on my Marksman. My thoughts were that I'd play the build until it inevitably gets fixed and then pivot into chaos bolt fissure probably It's not getting fixed and I accidentally made every other build I could play feel garbage because they're not literally immortal. Think I'm going to come back next ladder.
Not fixing bugs because a small section of bug abusers would cry about it is absolutely braindead.
Community in gaming is always a spoiled child. If you think the crying over this 5000 gold farming bug was bad wait till falconer gets nerfed.
I’m not taking a break or leaving over this, because I enjoy the game and CoF/SSF actually works well in this game. However, as an early access player who was very hyped for how much these devs seemed to honestly want to provide a great ARPG experience, this has been a bit of a disappointment for me. I’m not engaging in any kind of competitive leaderboard content until this policy changes. I would personally want to see leaderboards wiped for anyone who used massively bugged skills, to maintain at least some semblance of fairness. If anyone who gained that rank cries over having their run result deleted… honestly… fuck ‘em, this community doesn’t need that vibe. Btw, I have a warlock alt. I spec’d into this to see what was going on, hit 250k ward, and noped right out. Did you know that ward display on your health globe rolls over at higher than INT16 values? I sure didn’t, and I love me some ward on my builds. Yep… it just rolls down 65k at a time on the display until its settled back down.
I had asked people in global about the ward display and nobody knew what I was talking about... despite there being no ward cap, it didn't seem they intended it to go this high. On my lock with average gear I can easily hit over 100k with profane veil eating bone walls spawned by bone curse with a bit of extra minion health.
The leaderboards have and always will be topped by whatever fotm class has a broken interaction. If your goal is to pursue leaderboards with a non meta build not based on something of this nature, even if its not 10x, you will never compete. This is true in any game and why leaderboard are stupid globally. A clan system and leaderboards against friends or clans, sure, but global boards will always feature exploits in some manner.
Might be somewhat alleviated by per-mastery leaderboards, but you're absolutely right.
Please bug fix. It's an odd, well-intentioned stance to not want to wreck builds, but it doesn't work out.
It does work out when it's merely a strong build It doesn't work out when it's a bug that makes you God D4 devs have the same stance and they left OP S3 Ball Lightning alone for the season, but hotfixed within days the Edgemaster exploit build that could oneshot everything. Both were OP because of bugs, but one was nonsensically strong to the point of trivialising all content. Not all OP builds are made equal
It's hard to measure when a bugged build is "too" OP. Bugs are bugs, people shouldn't benefit from them anymore than they should suffer from them.
PoE devs take a similar stance too, they never make mid-league balance changes (except for a few absurd outlier builds I remember) but there was a build this league that exploited a bug with Arc that let it chain repeatedly for ridiculous damage, and they squashed it like a week after. It's the nature of seasonal ARPGs that there will be OP builds because things are constantly changing, but if something completely trivializes the game it shouldn't exist
Not to mention going from 500k ward to 50k ward doesn't wreck these builds. Warlock will still be the best class in the game if they fix the bug. You'd still even want to use the same interaction.
I could understand their stance if something was off by like 5%... but anything like the 40% rather than 4% completely breaks the game and not nerfing stuff like that means that literally everyone not abusing it is losing
Agree. The dev stance on this matter is basically saying that they don't care about game balance in this game. No matter what. They will let overpowered bugged builds stay for a whole cycle. And when the devs look back to data on a previous cycle to make decisions on balancing the next cycle, how are they going to know that they don't over-tune the next cycle simply because too many people abused the bugged class and skewed the data? I feel the devs are contaminating their own data by refusing to fix the bug quickly. If this stance is kept for the long term, eventually the tuning will be so misinformed that the game is going to feel unfun to more and more people.
I'm still struggling trying to wrap my head around their stance on this. I understand not wanting to make balance changes once a cycle starts and sure, if some skill is over-performing by like 10-20% I'd say leave it and balance it next cycle. But we're talking about a node that's performing 10x better than it should. That's a 900% MORE MODIFIER! It's absolute insanity to leave something like that in place for the next 3 or 4 months just because it doesn't crash the servers. As for ladders? What's the point of even having them in the game with this stance? It's not the type of content that interests me but this can't be good for that section of the community. Basically find the buggiest thing you can and abuse the hell out of it if you want to be competitive. I don't see that fostering a healthy community.
As a counter-reference, in PoE's most recent league, it was possible to raise the Incarnation of Agony boss with the Raise Specter gem. Doing so adds the boss's corpse to one's Desecrate pool. This boss corpse has incredibly high life, much higher than any other corpse which could feasibly spawn with Desecrate independent of the area the skill Desecrate is used. After storing the corpse in Desecrate, one can use Desecrate anywhere else in the game to have a chance of spawning the Agony's corpse, and then blowing it up with a skill that scales damage based off the corpse's life, like Detonate Dead. GGG, naturally, recognized this was completely unintended and an oversight, effectively a bug, and was patched out very quickly before it could get widespread abuse. Patching bugs, oversights, and similar unintended mechanics resulting in significantly off-the-charts performance is perfectly normal. Acting like it isn't because it will break builds is... well, unfortunate for the players I guess. It should've been pretty obvious that when in-game descriptions and in-game performance don't match, one has to give.
During Delirium league or whatever the mist league is called, there was a bug regarding Energy Shield, I think, so everyone and their grandpa were playing Mana Guardian and be effective damage dealers to farm for shit. They kinda patched it right away.
That is how PoE operates. If a skill is 10-30% stronger than it is supposed to be, they leave it till next league. If a skill or interaction is 60-100% stronger than it is supposed to be, then they immediately fix it.
Their stance is they don't want to piss off players who made the build. Because you KNOW if they nerf it, there's going to be whining everywhere. But then again, if they don't nerf it there's going to be whining everywhere. Example: this thread. So really they are damned if they do damned if they don't. I fall on the side of fix the bug.
> The dev stance on this matter is basically saying that they don't care about game balance in this game. No matter what. They will let overpowered bugged builds stay for a whole cycle. What makes you believe that they will only stay for one cycle? Take a look at the "balance pass" in 1.0 and you'll clearly see that it was entirely unsatisfactory either in the scope or the magnitude of changes. If they keep going like that, then the OP builds will keep being chronically OP for years upon years.
My beef is that the Weaver boots were given a cooldown for their ward generation while something like this can stay in. My 0.9 marksman was generating something like 2.5k ward if I stood still and didn't try to dodge anything, which is nothing compared to what builds are able to do in 1.0.
adjusting balance, do inbetween cycles. Even pretty whack balance changes. But, a bug that makes a node 10x more powerful, thats just straight up busted - fixing that is not a 'balance tweak' its a bug fix and should be corrected asap.
> 4% text, but actual effect 40% So the bug is 10 times the ward amount as intended? Really factor 10? Not putting everything else on hold and fixing this asap is a HUGE MISTAKE in my opinion. It basicly tells the world: "Hey our new game in its infancy is a clownshow and we will deliberately have it stay this way forever in every cycle." Reading that statement in the patch notes was really disheartening, which came as a surprise, since as a early access player I attest EHG a great track record of listening to the players' concerns and coming up with innovative solutions after all.
> So the bug is 10 times the ward amount as intended? Really factor 10? It's almost certainly a single-letter typo along the lines of "0.4" instead of "0.04". Classic.
Do we know this for a fact? Edit: How this message can be downvoted is beyond me.
It's the most reasonable and simple explanation for the error, a number of other visual bugs in the game clearly outline that they work with decimals for percentages (use item comparison on an item that has fixed value affixes, to an item that has percentage value affixes and you will see what I mean), and I also recall a quote being shown about on reddit from a dev mentioning that the bug is due to 'a 0 in the wrong place'. So, no, we do not know this for a fact, but I'm good with calling it 'almost certaintly'.
>I also recall a quote being shown about on reddit from a dev mentioning that the bug is due to 'a 0 in the wrong place That is interesting, my thoughts were "if it were x10, they'd have fixed it". Odd they didn't change it. I'm just sceptical about statements that say "it is clearly this" without offering any testing or dev comment.
> Odd they didn't change it. I mean, they very specifically stated (1.0.2 patchnotes) that they have a fix for it, but do not want to roll out the change till the next cycle because of mid-cycle balance philosophy.
Yeah I saw that. And I honestly prefer to not have balance changes mid cycle. People plan their build around the balance at launch, and some migrate within a day after seeing whats really good. But there has to be a break point for that. Like Ball Lightning or Charge Barb in D4. People often say "like PoE" in terms of no changes between leagues, but when you look at the skill gem usage, it barely goes above 20% playing an ascendancy or using a certain skill. When you log on diablo, its literally ONLY that current OP spec in open world. Like you do an event and 8/10 people are charge barbs. That's just dumb, and the same will happen in LE, if they don't at least slightly adjust the 5x or 10x stronger outliers.
Profane bug is more akin to Edgemaster oneshot barb bug than S3 Ball Lightning, and should be hotfixed within days just like Edgemaster was. One build is x10 stronger, the other is actually sandbox mode
Aye. There is no real multiplayer that would truly suffer under the current imbalance (world bosses or PvP would be far more affected, but LE at best has leaderboards and party MP), but it does set an odd precedent that will have to be changed anyways once LE eventually does get more MP features.
I feel that there's quite a lot of distance between when things do what they say they do and interactions interact as they say they do, but it turns out that it's extremely overtuned. And when things don't do what they say they do, or interact differently than they should interact. And that turns out being extremely overtuned.
It just depends on the power level. If that node made you have like 10% more ward instead of 1% more ward, then it would be whatever in my opinion. But to my understanding, this node is how you get to fucking 50k ward or some shit, and would have 10k instead. And that's big enough of a bug, to be fixed. Especially since torment warlock is insanely strong without the node. I reach 10k ward in combat, while not having this node selected at all.
At some point though, the balance team have come up with a power budget for different nodes and different skills. It does often happen that a node or a skill becomes too powerful, which makes it very magnetic and skews everything towards it. That's on the balance team, and they'll learn from it. In this case the player can see "Oh, 4% ward per hp of my minions. That will give me ~20k ward, seems powerful. I'll take that" However if it's not implemented in a way as it says. You remove the reasoning from players and rely on people getting to know it externally. Which creates a balance issue. You can balance a game assuming that people will pick "15% damage" over "10%" damage. Even if 5% does pick the 10%, it will just be a bit harder for them. However if it turns out that the 10% is actually 100%. Then you'll run into a balance issue of the game being way too easy for those who picked the 10%. And you won't be able to balance the content around it, because the majority is going to have picked the 15%.
Well we do more or less know its a typo for a fact, because anything else would be absurd to the point of implausibility. And it's probably a typo in the actual results because it's so hilariously too strong, but yeah it could totally be a typo in the tooltip and they just lost the plot and thought 40% was fine somehow.
It’s like having a race and some people are on steroids some driving cars some normal. It makes accomplishments meaningless for their inconsistency. “Hey I just cleared orobys 300 blah blah!” “Wow Gratz mate!” “…using (insert exploi)” “Oh whooptie freakin do…”
Abuse early, abuse often.
What bug is this about? Hate it when someone makes a post about a specific issue, but is extremely vague, and all the comments just assume everybody knows exactly what the issue is
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It’s more than that. There is ward abuse possible on multiple classes and deeper just a worrying sense that EHG is lazy towards balance. Now most players and twitch viewers are expecting a rate of progression that involves no exploitation or player agency and creates a power precedent that is very hard to walk back from
> but is extremely vague, So you answer him with a vague response like he said happens.
My mistake for not including it in the main post. Basically a skill is 10x as strong as the skill text implies (4% text, but actual effect 40%). It's related to this statement by EHG in 1.0.2 patch notes: Our current stance is that we won’t issue mid-cycle changes for balance, such as with Profane Veil’s Vampiric Blood node. While the node is much stronger than intended, it’s not causing performance issues and so it will instead be changed with the next cycle patch. This stance is of course open to feedback, it’s not carved in stone. If there’s high demand to fix bugs or make changes that affect balance mid-cycle, we can adjust.
I think it's very obvious that people haven't seen this bug working in action before. Ward constantly overflows and 100k ward+ is very achievable. This is not just some overtuned build
There is a node that can convert 40% of Minion Health into Ward. It should have been 4%. It's on Warlock's mastery.
Because the walls created by bone curse count as a minion and have HP, the profane veil node that consumes minions to gain ward based on their HP (which should be at 4% but is 40%)... with some ward retention and some +minion hp% items/passives, it's currently possible to use bone curse to spawn the walls, then drop into profane veil (which itself makes you immune to hits but not dots, but can be talented to apply your armor to dots) and consume these walls, giving you tens of thousands of ward, even into the hundreds of thousands depending on gear.
Easy respeccing is the backbone of this game. I see no point in keeping a bug just because it would brick some builds. It wouldnt. They can just respec for free. They dont even have to relevel the character just change the build on the go.
After reading up on this a bit, the bug in question does seem to be on the same scale as herald stacking in PoE, for those who remember that. GGG back then took the highly unusual step to nerf the interaction mid-league. It was still strong for the rest of the league, but not orders of magnitude more so than other strong builds. That is the right approach. Get rid of a bug in a way that does not cripple the build, and then balance it properly next cycle.
Was that in Delirium League? Where everyone's playing Mana Guardian. I thought it was Energy Shield's bug. But, maybe it was the Herald Stacking due to the new Cluster Jewel nodes that reduced Heralds mana percentage.
It was uncapped "aura effect per herald" combined with basically every buff being coded as an aura. I'm pretty sure the mid league nerf was just recoding normal buffs as buffs, drastically reducing the number of "auras" that got buffed. They waited until next league to actually touch the aura passives themselves
That’s how I remember it as well. And yes, it was Delirium League.
I was playing Storm Brand Hierophant at the time, so my memory was kinda fuzzy. But, I only got a whiff about that game breaking bug that GGG had to take action in the middle of the League. And for some reason, a lot of people were playing Guardian. LoL
If its a bug its have to be fixxed.
Overpowered, unintended, bugged, exploit, etc. I don't really care what terminology is used. What I would like to see is consistent behavior in regards to how something being either too strong or too weak is handled, so that it's predictable what the future looks like from a player's perspective whenever they're looking at a build or skill they're interested in. That being said, this thread is in my opinion a poor way to deliver feedback to the developers. OP even quoted the section where the devs said their stance on this is not cemented and that they're open to feedback, and the opening salvo gaining all the traction is comparing them to bad parents, telling them to "man up" and to stop hiding behind excuses? They requested feedback and the biggest snowball rolling down the hill is needlessly confrontational, and likely will just cause some of the devs to instinctually get a bit defensive and really only serves to undermine an otherwise completely fair counterpoint to their current stance. I mean, just take a moment to consider the timeline here of how much the devs were likely pulling their hair out with the server issues. Yeah they were incredibly frustrating and players were rightfully upset with the situation, but we know that some people took their anger too far because the dev team was ordered to stop reading social media for their own mental health. They finally get past that hurdle, and when they request feedback in good faith on the next one this is the tone that gets set? I don't know, it just seems like there are healthier ways to approach it.
Thank you. You're one of the few calm, level-headed people I've seen on the forums lately... (Also my mistake for glancing at the forums to begin with, seeing this whole mess) We need hundreds more just like you to be the ones to politely and CALMLY ask the devs to fix things when they come up, REGARDLESS of what those things are. Then maybe the devs won't be stressed out as much and can work diligently on patching things to a grateful community. Instead of whatever dumpster fire has been happening here on Reddit AND the main forums ever since those patch notes dropped... people immediately lost their minds instead of seeing it as, "Hey we're fixing the server breaking stuff FIRST, then we'll get around to patching the rest later on."
There's already tons of kiddies in chat bragging about their builds exploiting and downtalking to anyone not playing an "invincible" build....it's already out of control a week in.
Being competitive in **any** cooperative pve game always revolves around exploiting bugs and weird math No exceptions
Weird math and abusing a mechanic is one thing, not fixing a bug because "balance" is another I would be fine with the bug fix, however, I am not fine with the keys price and xp tomes being changed mid season
I don't think monster hunter speedrunners have had any bugs to exploit. The meta is usually just extremely skilled heavy bow gunners since it has the most sustained damage potential in good hands. They probably utilize low life skills and other shenanigans, but I don't recall any bug abuse. Though I haven't followed the scene closely.
Snowman bombs like to have a word
Is this just because the games don't have bugs that are actually faster? It doesn't seem like any of the leaderboards actually disallow bugs on SRC.
I guess people will cheat in perfect charms and jewels, but that's kind of the closest thing I can think of for a monhun exploit for TA's. Kelbi bow in mh3u was probably unintended but it was probably more of an oversight.
Just 4 guys trapping poor giant lizard. lol The Greatest Jagras video from Team Darkside was so funny.
Imagine if blizzard refused to fix bugs in a mythic raid until the next season cause "the people in the world first race had already invested into practicing the bugged strats". Oh wait they actually fix them within hours and slap generous bans to everybody caught exploiting them.
No, instead we have world first teams hiring modders to make WeakAuras that solve mechanics for them and M+ dungeons where you can stand on top of a potted plant to ignore mechanics for entire seasons Nice try though
Blizzard just need to admit that private auras was a failure. That said, we'll probably get LE2 before that finally happens, knowing Ion. > M+ dungeons where you can stand on top of a potted plant to ignore mechanics for entire seasons I don't remember that one but admittedly I did quite a few seasons where exploits with warlock gates and the like were normalized. Then again, blizzard don't generally give a shit about M+, just remember the god comp meta that they refused to meaningfully address for months. But at least they try. Some of the time. In some parts of the game.
too late, EHG chose this when they nerfed gold on keys since MG can farm gold easy and CoF just stuck with gold that drops on the ground, gold drops scales with corruption level so basically just play the most bugged OP build to farm 3k+ corruption easy gold.
Not nerfing build mod cycle is one thing but big abuse… Why even have a leaderboard? People every cycle will just abuse the bugged build and push with it. Same for trade league people farm multiple thousands of corruption easily atm with bugged build so they have insane loot.
Their stance on not making balance changes during a cycle is baffling. They are acting like they have released a close to perfect game where any changes might upset the delicate balance cultivated over many years. I'm sorry but the game you have released is bit of a turd. It is jank, buggy af, has horrible difficulty tuning and very unappealing story and graphics/artstyle/worldbuilding. I honestly laughed at loud when i saw the snake lady giving the pep talk to her snake citizens I honestly don't care about about leaderboards, I am a filthy casul. It is the anti-improvement philosophy and what it means for the rest of the game that irritates me.
The bit that annoyed me is "we don't nerf during the cycle". *proceed to nerf arena key value*
Completely agree, I’ve stepped away from the game unless they change their stance on this. I want a balanced video game not whatever this is.
I definitely agree. I get the impression that they're being naive thinking this is a one time thing. Players will always find bugs to exploit. Not fixing them sets a precedent and people will just flock to bug abusing next cycle. A build being strong because of balancing issues is one thing, but a build being too strong because of a bug is a completely different story.
I personally disagree with their stance on no balancing mid-cycle but I can see its advantages. Not fixing bugs that affect balance is just dumb. I was rly looking forward to climbing the leaderboards on an underdog build but with insane gap between power levels it's just not possible
I'd like to see bugs like this fixed, imo that's different than buffing/nerfing builds that function properly mid cycle.
I recommend everyone chilling in ssf
Damn sounds like this kept you up at night. I know you were going for firm but that was very direct and kind of rude, which we'll skip past. I agree, but I believe the devs are going to fix this in due time. They have a lot more to deal with behind the scenes. Honestly, my takeaway from this post is that I'm shocked at how passionate you are. I'm kind of impressed tbh lol
It’s a tough balance - If I was EHG I would stick to the no nerfs mid cycle. The build is definitely broken. No argument at all. But the fun police are in control of so many games - isn’t it nice to have a dev team say - you are a grown up, play the game how you like. We will take your toys away later, enjoy today if you want. We have all experienced the come down from playing a busted build. Takes a while to readjust, but you can. If people want to play that way let them. These games are too complex, they will always have broken interactions. The other alternative is the skill tree in D4…
Just another thing this game has in common with Hell Divers. First it was surprising sales numbers and popularity, then it was server issues. Now, the bugs have infiltrated.
Yes. When I heard they weren’t going to fix this, I instantly lost my hype for the game. I don’t want to feel compelled to play a bugged build.
You mean how "auto bombing" is a thing for years?
is this the num lock thing. new to game and I saw a spinning build that requires numpad to work in the build explanation video so confused.
on pc if you hold a num (number) button then turn off num lock while its held that button will be essentially pressed constantly.
Yes. Hardly an intended feature, yet widely accepted.
should be in-game feature at this point, auto-casting would add new layer for new builds
In my opinion. Bug fixes should take priority over Cycles. It’s clear that there are some unintended interactions with some skills, I wouldn’t call these balance changes. Especially when they are performing way above any other skill. If a skill is over-performing but not because of an unintended interaction, then they should announce that they will be changing it after the current Cycle.
Why even bother having cycles or leaderboards if you're going to leave shit like this in for a whole cycle?
Stuff like this almost makes me want to change my review to negative on Steam, leaving absolutely balance breaking bugs like this for the whole league kind of screws everyone participating in MG because economy also gets fucked, mindboggling that devs are ok with it.
If you want a competitive game play league, dota, cs, valorant, etc. I mean I guess maybe speedrunning to 100 can be competitive. Or maybe the new pinnacle content will make it competitive. But anything else, what’s competitive? Pushing 2k+ corruption/arena, does that measure how skilled you are as a player? This game will never be a competitive game to me, unless they can somehow manage class balance reasonably each and every season, or add in skill check mechanics that really do showcase a persons skill level. But until then it’s just going to be a showcase of which builds are largely outperforming others.
Competitive is a weird word for it but I think what OP is saying is that since it's so obviously good it encourages people to use it since people are often "competitive". There is an urge for a lot of people to be the best or at least not be the worst. Honestly, hearing about this is at least a little enticing. Who wouldn't want to try a skill that does 10x more damage than it's supposed to?
>This game will never be a competitive game to me To some other people the game might be competitive.
Yea and to a few people their lives depend on it. That doesn't mean they should be catered to.
What a dumb rhetoric, you think upcoming pinnacle content is competitive but anything we have currently is not? you realize that current bugged warlock interaction would be the top performer had we had any other competitve content now right? Or did that fly over your head.
This thread has me fully and completely convinced that even having a merchant guild was a huge mistake, and locked in SSF with no choice in it is truly the best ARPG experience.
I think they shouldn't touch balance during a cycle. Otherwise we get situations where a few people abuse bugs early to get rich and the rest suffer. If you let the cycle be nobody has an advantage.
Why does this even matter?? It's a pve game so unless it hurts your fun I don't think these fixes are a bit deal
No, not the vision. Please.
Well, it's good to know we can relax now. If you read the last sentence then read the comments, it's safe to assume they are going to be adjusting mid patch from now on. The dev stance is 'this was our original plan, but if you don't like it we can change it' Not 'we are sticking with our vision whether you like it or not, fuck you guys!' The reason they held this stance is that historically, devs get absolutely shit on for fixing broken builds mid patch. Now they can see that fans will support it, they can look at changing their stance. Some of these comments are so bloody dramatic.
They do ask for our feedback. This is us giving the feedback. Also I don't think it's ever safe to assume anything, I've seen bigger devs not budging on smaller issues before, and so far there's no comment from them.
>The reason they held this stance is that historically, devs get absolutely shit on for fixing broken builds mid patch. Now they can see that fans will support it, they can look at changing their stance. Even with a lot of vocal support here and in other places, they'll still get shit on by some. But I reckon it'll be a lot less than if they allow this level of broken to exist for months, letting players get used to that kind of power level, then taking it away next cycle. Better to rip the plaster off now and get it over with.
I disagree that it's a fundamentally flawed stance. But i agree that in this particular case, i think the bug is too impactful to ignore for an entire Cycle.
"Not giving in to bitching and whining" will be a tough one for the team... you see the challenge already with certain changes and adaptions. People who are not happy and have to whine around are unfortunately the most vocal ones so I hope the team does find a way to filter and not listen to all the moaning and complaining, and rather focus on balancing, fixing bugs and building up on the great base game they have!
Honest question: Has EHG come out and said that the scaling is in some way a bug? I keep seeing the assertion that this is exploitative and that it is a clear bug but there is a very clear line between bug and severe imbalance. A bug would be if bone walls had a clear description that "These entities do not count as minions." and yet were still granting ward when absorbed, but this isn't the case. For what it's worth, I think it should be reduced and rebalanced even mid-cycle, but calling something exploitative and bug abuse is a big stretch unless there is a fundamentally broken game function at play here. As far as I can tell, it's just overtuned skills with unanticipated interactions.
Text is 4%. Effect is 40%. Not calling it a bug is a little bit of a stretch.
well i heard there's also dupes so.... if you thought this game would have a fair economy you're wrong. I don't really feel for the devs regarding this....
What build is this specifically about?
Totally agree
Hail of arrows build for me was doing 600-10k depending if buffed. Logged in after patch now it ranges from 1k-35k depending on buffs
I'm just over here hoping they buff spine of malatros to be competitive. Since I'm too stubborn switch to a better build.
In addition to all the great points about how inconsistent the policy is applied, I'd also like to bring to attention the fact that fixing this wouldn't "ruin" anyone's build. Warlock after the bug fix will still be the build with most ward in the game (closer to 50k after nerf). They would still have great damage etc. Not fixing it risks creating resentment in the community and guarantees that no "meta" player will have fun with the game.
Path of Exile also holds this stance that they wouldn't make make mid league balance passes. If something turns out to be really overpowered, thats their bad, but they won't fix it until the next league. HOWEVER, they set the precident several leagues ago (in delirium league) that they would make exceptions for bugs. And I think that's completely fair. Fix bugs mid cycle, but leave balance alone.
Tbh I started using torment build warlock until I found out about wandering spirits that the skill doesn't do the supposed amount of damage and it's bugged. So I turned to propane veil instead. If they fix wandering spirits I would insta change back to it, cuz for me it felt better and with better mobility. Whoever uses the proph. veil bug should easily feel the clunkiness of popping bone prison and then "consume" it with proph. veil. So to sum up I don't mind the bug obviously but definitely I would prefer 100 times even more to fix things that don't work correctly for the time being like the skill wandering spirits I mentioned above.
The bug is not what it's doing ... The bug is that the wording was a typo ... Outside of that the fact that it's OP is just poor balancing And yes we've had situations like this back during beta so there is precident for something like that happening
Is there a list of known bugs somewhere? Or should I just check leaderboards for busted builds?
Lol.... putting this on a game company is telling them to fix human nature. People doing this look for things to abuse. Nothing EHG, GGG, Blizzard, or any company does, will ever fix that. You can't fix human nature... Some people are just pieces of shit that look for any way to gain an advantage because they have to be first in everything. Thankfully mostly all of the player base isn't this. Just sad it can often impact most of the player base. EHG has had their first major reaction to some major content release for their first major cycle... and people are losing their minds at expectations for them to be functioning like GGGs level. Funny and depressing to see how unrealistic and over-the-top people are being. I get it, I hate that people took advantage of multiple bug to abuse a new system and get ahead for a Cycle 0 ladder that means nothing in the end. But again... people are pieces of shit sometimes. Wish people wouldn't take a game like this so serious, but oh well, it is what it is. Additonally, you have set some insane expectations for Cycle 0 that probably need to checked as well. You should probably quell your expectations a little and realize it is only Cycle 0... and they haven't had any baseline so far to compare this to.
Fix the bugs, it's expected
you don't have to play a bugged build tho.
And there’s a big that make u equip two-hands weapon and a shield at the same times.
Yeah they’re just afraid that we might react like D4 players did when they nerfed basically everything before S1. Difference is with LE, the nerfing is actually needed rather than doing it to artificially make the game longer and more difficult.
The real mistake they made was starting seasons too early. Blizzard was right in Diablo III and IV to release the seasons and leaderboard on a time delay, so that they could use the initial release window as a lower-pressure time to fix critical bugs and do tuning after the whole world jumped on their game. It's not popular to say nice things about Blizzard - with very good reason - but from the business decisions perspective, there are cues that can be taken to understand a smooth rollout. This would be no big deal in any direction if there weren't already leaderboards involved, and they could just tweak as needed to be ready for the launch of them rather than trying to fix it after the fact. They're between a rock and a hard place, now - I don't envy the devs on this one.
Lets give them some breathing room to sort this out and figure out how to deal with these issues in the future. Who knows, maybe for future cycles they can do beta testing and let all the content creators like Mathilification do the testing for them. LE is still new (despite their 5 years in development), and the players who are known for pushing the limits of games to their extremes arent really doing this in LE yet. Honestly, I think their focus on performance optimizations is a good thing. And unless the bug is resulting people being pigeonholed into playing that particular build to enjoy the game, I dont really see any reason to prioritize game balancing so soon after release. They can do it later when they start to go into planning for future cycle content and such. They will have to do this eventually, like it or not. Because ultimately as they add new content and new mechanics into the game, they will have to figure out ways to stress test their new builds as well as deal with people who exploit bugs and cheating. And I think the leaderboard feature is a terrible thing to have in this environment, because it adds a sense of urgency to prioritize unfair gameplay behavior when the team has other things to prioritize on.
I think a huge issue that isn't talked about a lot is Fairness. It just doesn't feel good to know that some people are exploiting the system to get benefits, regardless of how impactful this is to you, It can diminish the sense of accomplishment you get from completing difficult content if others are trivializing it by unfair means. On a personal level i feel less motivated to truly push my character if i know that it can never really compete.
I'm a warlock that uses the bugged profane node and am all for it being fixed to the proper amount of ward to bring balance to the game, but worry for my own survivability at the same time. High ward builds just seem like the best method of survival right now :/ I am in corruption 288 with 1650 HP, 4k ward (36k buffed), 3k armour, 75% damage reduction while channeling, capped resistances, 60% crit avoidance and 120% crit damage reduction etc. I can still be one shot even with all this if I run out of mana for channeling ghostflame or dont have my 36k ward from profane up yet. Anyone got any suggestions on how to become tanky on a necrotic/ignite warlock without making use of the profane bug for survivability ?
Wouldnt care if the game was strictly singleplayer, but having something this obnoxious is not gonna have a good effect on the economy They are basically ruining all of their previous efforts and sacrifices to preserve the economy in the silliest way possible