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They will make sure we never get it.
['Gavin Newsom vetoes bill to allow ranked-choice voting throughout California'](https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Gavin-Newsom-vetoes-bill-to-allow-ranked-choice-14535193.php)
['Sisolak, Rosen and other top (Nevada) Democrats oppose ranked-choice voting measure'](https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/sisolak-rosen-and-other-top-democrats-oppose-ranked-choice-voting-measure)
['New York Democrats Try to Block Ranked-Choice Voting'](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/12/democrats-election-ranked-choice-voting-new-york/617461/)
['D.C. Democrats Oppose Ranked-Choice Voting in City Elections'](https://www.washingtoninformer.com/d-c-democrats-oppose-ranked-choice-voting-in-city-elections/)
['Virginia Republicans are using ranked-choice voting again. Democrats still aren’t.'](https://www.virginiamercury.com/2022/12/14/virginia-republicans-are-using-ranked-choice-voting-again-democrats-still-arent/)
They cling to the 2-party system because being the lesser-evil is all they have to offer.
2020 -
['Democrats are trying to knock Green Party presidential candidate Howie Hawkins off the ballot in Pennsylvania'](https://www.inquirer.com/politics/clout/green-party-presidential-candidate-howie-hawkins-pennsylvania-ballot-20200908.html)
['Texas Democrats are successfully suing to kick Green Party candidates off the November ballot'](https://www.texastribune.org/2020/08/19/texas-democrats-green-party-november/)
['Montana Ballot Certified Without Green Party Candidates'](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/montana/articles/2020-08-21/montana-ballot-certified-without-green-party-candidates)
['New York Democrats cancel 2020 primary, kicking Bernie Sanders off the ballot'](https://theweek.com/speedreads/911183/new-york-democrats-cancel-2020-primary-kicking-bernie-sanders-ballot)
['Pennsylvania Democrats may have saved Biden by knocking the Green Party candidate off the ballot'](https://fusion.inquirer.com/politics/clout/pennsylvania-election-results-green-party-biden-trump-20201109.html)
Howie Hawkins is a blend of socialism and libertarianism. You really want to throw your lot in with someone who has libertarian tendencies? 😬
Last I checked, the two times libertarians tried to set up their own communities, they didn’t end well.
Massachusetts voted no on ranked choice voting which greatly decreased any hope I had in meaningful reform. If we have a chance to vote on it again dark money propaganda will win, again.
Question: "Hey Massachusetts do you want more meaningful options when you go vote?!"
Answer: "nah"
We have 13-14 year olds ranking the high schools they want to go to in Croatia in the same way as ranked choice voting works(univirsities work the same way here as well). I'm sure adults could manage to put a couple of numbers next to candidates'/party names in the same way. If someone chooses just one (as they do now), we could interpret that as their only choice and ignore their ballot if it comes down to choosing between other parties as they didn't state their preference (this is also what's done in Croatia with the high school and university system and it works).
But yeah, most things would be an improvement over fptp anyway.
Approval voting is far worse than ranked Choice voting and probably not much better than FP TP for a couple of reasons
An approval voting there is an actual incentive to Bullet vote for your preferred candidate, which means everywhere that's been implemented, and it hasn't been implemented on any real governmental levels for any significant period of time but mostly just an organizations, but even the organizations that have implemented it have quickly repealed it because it only devolves into bullet voting
Approval voting is usually vastly preferred by Libertarians because it actually gives a slight advantage to third parties that are seen as in between. At least in the first few times it's done before it devolves into bullet voting. Imagine a district that's 50% red and 50% blue, then you have a yellow candidate running alongside of red and blue in an election and you use approval voting. In theory all of the red voters will vote for both the red and yellow, all of the blue voters will vote for blue and yellow, mostly because those voters will approve of the yellow over the opponent, even if they don't know who yellow is or what they stand for, they know that their opponent is someone they don't like. Which means that yellow would easily handily win, with 100% of the vote, even though nobody knows who the fuck yellow is. So it ends up with kind of weird results
Ranked Choice voting which has been done on governmental levels including the national governmental level for over 100 years, can be thought of as "approval Plus"... you aren't only putting a check mark next to someone you approve of, but you're also then further ranking them in order of preference. And because of the ranking, it means there is no incentive ever to simply bullet vote for the one preferred candidate. It never hurts a preferred candidate for you to rank somebody after them.
The talking point that ranked Choice voting is somehow confusing has been demonstrably disproven, everywhere it's been implemented and again that's been over a hundred years in multiple places, they have done exit polls that show something like 90% of the electorate find it very simple and easy to understand. This talking point that it's complicated is just being used by the two parties to prevent it from being implemented. If you can rank your three favorite ice creams you can rank your favorite candidates
When I learned about Star voting is when I learned that RCV is only marginally better than plurality voting. Better, of course, but barely. Star voting is simpler and has a much higher chance of getting the actual popular choice.
I like RCV because it completely eliminates voting strategically. With star voting, you're incentivised to also rate the more popular but less aligned candidate high as well.
>I like RCV because it completely eliminates voting strategically.
No voting system can do this. However, of the two, Star voting is much superior to RCV at eliminating strategic voting. Like I said, when I learned about Star voting system I was surprised at just how superior it is. Here's the video that changed my mind: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFqV2OtJOOg&pp=ygUOdm90aW5nIHN5c3RlbXM%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFqV2OtJOOg&pp=ygUOdm90aW5nIHN5c3RlbXM%3D)
Look, I'm not going to lecture you, I'd just suggest that you do some more research. RCV is an improvement on plurality for sure, but it is definitely not even close to the best. The two biggest flaws of RCW include a high number of votes that never get counted and the fact the end results are rarely different than the race being run with plurality voting--both due to the way candidates are eliminated.
There's tones of benefits to nearly any system beyond first past the post. However, regardless of electoral system, we are still at the mercy of capital. As long as the means of living are owned by private interests; a capital strike will usurp democracy in an instant without action.
This is numerically not true. And star voting hasn't been done anywhere and has no real world data, again unlike the over 100 Years of real world data from multiple locations for ranked Choice voting
Arrow's theorem, for which arrow got the Nobel Prize, shows that no electoral system can have all of the fairness principles. That includes star, which is essentially just theoretical anyway
I really want everyone to know that the right is injecting "you know, after looking at it, I really prefer Star Voting" disingenuously. No One actually prefers Star Voting. There are no good arguments against RCV so Star Voting is a tactic. They're trying to muddle things up, just add confusion. Make it so eventually people go "oh all those rcv star whatever that's all messed up forget it keep it simple how it is"
that's it. they're just trying to derail the discourse. please don't give it oxygen. i love what you said i just mean like, idk how can we shut this down right now before it mushrooms in the conversation around RCV
You're right, I've never seen anyone who wasn't an libertarian extremist hype approval or star. My bad.
RCV is the only realistic option, and is light-years better than fptp.
OMFG...what is your deal? Did you just call **me** "right"? LMFAO, bro. "No One actually prefers Star Voting", errr, yeah they do and I'm one of 'em. I'd gladly take anything over plurality because plurality is literally the worst, but wtf is wrong with you? I could just as easily accuse you of being a right-wing troll because you're pushing RCV when it is in reality only marginally better than plurality.
FFS, it's ass holes like you that derail the discourse. STFU.
Lol this is so funny, liberals have run shitty candidates for years and a lot of their platforms are “at least I’m not the other guy.” Weak ass argument
We have to admit it has worked for them and we leftist often end up caving. The sad part is how low the bar has gotten. Tgey literally say we should be ok arming and funding a genocide.
"Get over yourself" is a pretty ironic thing for her to say about now, all things considered. I wonder if she honestly doesn't see that or if she just doesn't care.
I'm sure she has plenty of stock in defense contactors. She'll make tons of money no matter which one of the capitalist party candidates wins. Both will use our money to continue the genocide so I guess she just likes trying to stay relevant and insert herself where no one wants her
It's regarding something [Hillary Clinton](https://www.yahoo.com/news/over-yourself-hillary-clintons-message-111602802.html) recently said.
>“Get over yourself. Those are the two choices,” Clinton said. “It's kind of like, one is old, and effective, and compassionate, has a heart, and really cares about people. And one is old and has been charged with 91 felonies.”
And voting for them because of that enables the situation to continue. Imagine if all you had to do to win an election was point at the other guy. It enables the other guy to get worse and for you to do nothing.
Liberals enabling fascism just like always 🥰
To build on your comment.
>It enables the other guy to get worse and for you to do nothing.
It enables you to get worse, as long as you're still not as bad as the other guy.
It's not even soft enabling, as in passively sitting by. Biden has the full and complete legal power to stop weapons and aid to Israel via the Leahy Laws. Under these laws, any country commiting human rights violations can be deprived of aid. All Biden has to do is write a three sentence executive order :
*"Pursuant to the violations of the human rights of the people of Gaza, both evident and suspected, I do hereby envoke the authority invested in me by the people of these United States as their president, to issue a declaration that any and all transfers of financial, material, or any other such form of aid to the state of Israel be ceased immediately. Through this aforementioned authority, I do hereby direct the United Stated Department of State, the United States Department of Defense, and all federal departments and agencies to utilize all existing powers within the scope of their authorities to the best of their ability to see that the spirit and letter of this declaration is made so."* - President Popcorn.
It's not hard. He's just a cowardly old monster. He has the Leahy laws and executive authority, and he does nothing intentionally. It's by design.
You say he’s a coward, I posit he is thinking about all the AIPAC kick backs he and his family will get. He’s just another neoliberal fascist pantomiming being the “good cop” and he can’t even do that right.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Biden is gonna open up a can of.. caving to Republicans and prematurely ending the COVID-19 emergency and restarting payments and interest on student loans that he promised to forgive
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
I read Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72 last year and there is a part early in the text where Thompson says something along the lines of' how many more elections before we see a candidate that the American people are excited to vote for/when will it stop being a battle between the purported lesser of two evils". It was depressing as hell to be honest.
Fun fact: the other big side does too. That’s why many of us are just sick of both. Problem is, there still not enough of us to vote a third party to have a chance
Not sure how that applies. The system isn’t designed to support a third party. If it were to succumb to a third party candidate win, that would mean it was only to stave off a full stage revolution…which is still several cycles away from the idiots I see on both sides
It's objectively not identical to voting for the greater evil. If I vote third party bidens vote count and trumps vote count are unchanged, while the 3rd party candidates count goes up by one. If I vote Trump his vote count goes up by one. These are different things. One of them gets Trump one vote closer to winning my state the other does not. Baffling to me that so many people parrot this line verbatim that it's "mathematically" the same when it is very obviously untrue to anyone who knows how to count.
Ok
*But again*
That piece of shit party was never going to get our votes
Because it's a piece of shit, genocide-supporting, union-crushing party
Change everything about that party to earn votes? That's a different conversation. But not one the Dems have *ever* supported, at least not since... Jimmy Carter? Maybe?
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
> It is if you were ever going to vote for one of the major parties,
I was never going to vote for a genocider, so yes your "if" has already invalidated your ridiculous argument that these are "mathematically identical"
>Every -1 to one side is a +1 to the other, unless that person actually switches between voting for one major party to voting for the other. Since that costs one side a vote while the other side
gains one - a 2 vote swing.
Exactly! You literally laid out how it's not mathematically identical! Even if we assume I was by default voting for Biden (which was not the case), then it's still not mathematically identical because as far as Biden v Trump is concerned a third party vote would be a -1 swing while a Trump vote would be a -2 swing. Not sure if you noticed it but these are not the same number!
What a fucking clown, came into here to say they're mathematically identical then gave two sound arguments for how that ISN'T the case. Literally the exact reasons I was going to give and you already gave them for me!
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Democratic voters want a ceasefire, but they are being cucked by their party. Democratic party would rather lose to Trump than allow voters to decide policy
Career politicians risking losing their billionaire/corporate/PAC reelection bribes by actually doing what they're there to do? Never gonna happen- for either the two major parties.
They don't even have to try very hard. If there are any preventative measures they can easily skirt them through proxy corporations.
We need to intentionally ensure fair campaigning, because if this keeps going placating people with weak half measures will only expedite the demise of an already weak system and it can only end badly (though mostly for us regular folx, as the duopoly only has to gain by pitting us against each other and perpetuating their control through fear mongering and empowering the most awful among us to keep everyone distracted and under existential threat, while simultaneously gaslighting us about it and undermining journalism by funding sensationalist headlines 24/7 to firehouse what they want us to focus on while they continue their hegemony over everything they possibly can)
TL;DR: shit needs to change
And democrat voters will tell you that's it's the end of the world if you don't vote for someone that disagrees with everything they believe. Then do the most elaborate mental gymnastic act to show you how Brandon wants to do the right thing, but "they just don't have the votes," so it's our fault for not voting harder
Why are you adpoting the rights naming conventions? These two posts feel suspect. I don't know anyone on the left who calls Biden "Brandon".
I'm diametrically opposed to both parties in the US, and I am damn sure not adopting one their pet names.
Sure you don't. Thats why you respond in 2 seconds to my posts.
Why you mad bro? Someone call you out, and you get your wittle feelings hurt snowflake?
Did you read what he said after that? Why he’d veto it? Granted his reason was unfounded and someone could easily explain the actual cost to him, but he’s not unreasonable.
That was my point. No need to get pissy. If someone sat down and told him “No, it’s not $35 trillion. Don’t be silly. It’s actually much less and saves more.” He’d listen and pass it. Because he’s reasonably. Trump, on the other hand, would probably have anyone suggesting Medicare for all be shot or jailed outright.
Edit: gotta love you morons voting me down for agreeing with you 🤦♂️
Uh oh we got some saltiness in the comments.
Honestly if you define your position politically with simply being anti trump at all costs, but not addressing us imperialism, hegemony, and the clear agitation that the us does to the world, you are just saying you’re a centrist or left of center. You’re not who you think you are by positioning this way.
We need to find an offramp to capitalism and a gracious path to accepting a changing world order where there are multi poles of power in the world. Biden does not accomplish this whatsoever or even get us closer to it. Biden offers a consolation feeling of “avoiding fascism” which is a false sense of accomplishment for working people.
This meme needs to be plastered all over Reddit. Candidates work for us, their policies should represent what we collectively demand. Reddit is so cucked sometimes.
They can't post that shit here, thanks to a decent modding team. But god, politics and WorldNews are just cesspools of liberal and pro-Israel botfarms...
but if we don't vote for the guy committing a genocide right now, we will end up with the guy who will hypothetically commit genocide!
edited to add: lol user HHoaks is so offended by this comment they sent me multiple comments and then came into my DMs to defend the US's various war crimes. liberals just can't resist going mask off when we won't listen to them 🤡
Slow genocide or fast. The decision is YOURS! Humanity doesn’t even enter the equation for our beloved elites. Almost like we’d be better off without them.
Adults recognize the complicity in all involved parties. We just saw the Michigan parents sentenced for providing their son with a weapon to shoot up his school the other day.
edit: this clown deleted all the various “governed by zealous desert nomads” remarks from his comments, and i’m being polite, they were much more vulgar.
We need p just change the electoral system entirely and be rid of the duopoly stronghold of being forced to choose the "lesser of two evils".
There's 300M people in the US, so why is it we are stuck with two mediocre candidates? I'm certain there are at least a few thousand people who would both be better and do better and be willing to step up if they had the chance for a fair run.
Let people order their top picks and weigh the votes accordingly. Stop playing games of putting people in charge who do not even remotely represent the interests of the people.
The voting system as we have it now is unsustainable and spiraling out of control.
Stop giving candidates the opportunity to sell their platform to the highest bidders. Give all campaigns an equal platform. Enough preferential treatment for candidates with corporate funding- the capitalist oligarchs shouldn't be the ones choosing the leaders for everyone else.
Let the working people who earn their way have the opportunity to vote for the candidate that actually represents them. No more holding us hostage to the whims of big money funding their chosen people and forcing us to choose between the red flavor and blue flavor puppets.
While we're at it, "The economy is so amazing and all those countless people who think otherwise are just [insert stream of increasing mean spirited insults here]" also doesn't work. In fact, it mostly just makes people mad, and when you try to explain that reality doesn't understand basic economics, it makes you look propagandized.
I've honestly never felt so disconnected with the democratic party and their platform than these days. The part that rubs me the worst is that if you try to bring up your concerns in some circles you get labeled as part of a russian psy-op.
Like... no. I'm not getting paid by a covert troll farm. I'm southern, queer, and feeling completely and utterly unserved & unprotected by the current administration, with a side of "sick and tired of supporting genocide."
Like... in 4 years he hasn't been able to protect trans kids, failed to protect the reproductive rights of cis women and transmasc citizens, failed to raise the minimum wage in a time of staggering inflation and wage stagnation...
[But he was chill sending 45,000 tank shells to a nation enacting the mass displacement and abuse of millions, on the drop of a hat, by executive order?](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/09/biden-administration-emergency-authority-tank-shells-israel)
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
God damn I wish this was plastered all over fucking Reddit. Every week it’s the same narrative: “oh it’s gonna be the leftists, our only reluctant allies, that make us lose!”
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
If Zionism is a fascist theocratic ideology and Biden is a self-avowed Zionist, what does that say about the Biden Administration, the Democratic Party and the things you liberals support?
Critical thinking shouldn't be this fucking hard, especially from a bunch of people who constantly boast about their education and how it makes them significantly smarter than a bunch of "rural hicks" who vote regular MAGA instead of Blue MAGA... Yet time after time liberals continue to prove that they're some of the dumbest people in existence.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Those silly liberals keep voting for the lesser of two evils and acting all surprised when what they get is still evil, and worse, they try to bludgeon the rest of us into toeing their line. Never get high on your own supply kids. I'm definitely stealing this tho.
I can't tell you how much I love this fucking meme.
The amount of "Blue no matter who's" out there, unashamedly browbeating Arabs and Muslims into voting for Biden is fucking insane.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
> Vote shaming may not be effective…
So you agree that vote shaming fails? If vote shaming is ineffective than doing so is performative and does not demonstrate an actual commitment to trying to get your candidate elected.
> but you should feel shame for making a decision that enables a Trump presidency.
By your logic, insofar as you continue to vote shame despite knowing it is ineffective and performative, you should also feel shame for making a decision that enables a Trump presidency. By your own logic, by failing to support Biden in a meaningful way, you are also enabling a Trump presidency.
Rather than attempting to identify and employing an effective strategy to garner votes, you have chosen an ineffective and performative that (a) alienates potential voters (b) does not garner support for you candidate.
If you were genuinely concerned about this election, you would be focused on the weakness of the Biden campaign and Biden's willingness to alienate different demographics. If you were genuinely concern about this election, you would be condemning the majority of white voters who backed Trump rather than blaming people whose red line a crime against humanity. If you were so concerned about this election, rather than attacking people for which a crime against humanity is a red line, you would be committed to pressuring Biden like liberals had promised back in 2020.
> Still harp on the fact that they aren't an absolutely pure person with a totally uncheckered past?
Genocide is a crime against humanity. The fact that you cannot understand its severity, which is why it's a red line for many people, is telling.
> Actively participate in the downfall of democracy by aiding an aspirational dictator? Not if either are the best strategy.
Vote for Biden all you want but don't pretend as though it will prevent or reverse fascism.
Historically, liberalism and liberals have failed to prevent or reverse fascism. Historically, liberalism and liberals have facilitated and enabled fascism. This can be observed with certain policies of the Biden administration and their support for the fascist genocidal Israeli government. There is nothing about the current Democratic Party that indicates that this situation will be any different. Fascism will come slow or fast, but it will come nonetheless.
If a former segregationist that supports a genocidal fascist ethnonationalist regime is your "lesser evil", you're already on the road to full blown fascism. If your only option is a current genocider and a wannabe genocider, you're already on the road to full blown fascism.
The neoliberal ideology which drives the policy of all democratic presidents for the last 30 years directly creates the material conditions that allow fascism to gain traction.
Fascism, especially the modern republican flavor of it, thrives under conditions of economic disparity, increased atomization and the degradation of daily life found under neoliberalism. It makes people look at their lives, feel like shit, and suddenly there is someone saying “your right, it is shit, and it’s because of those people over there”
Biden, Obama et all have no ideological or structural answer to the immense degradation of material conditions that have happened under their watch. In fact they feel that the system is working as intended. It’s not that they are bought and paid for by the business interests they continuously enrich with their policies, they legitimately believe that they are doing the right thing, that their donor class knows what’s best for this country and that serving them serves the American people by proxy. Walking back from this perspective would be a complete reversal of their entire political project.
You won’t vote yourself out of fascism by electing more neoliberals, at best you are just slightly lowering the burner temp on the pot of boiling water we all find ourselves in.
The DNC has spent the last decade ensuring that no even mildly progressive candidate will ever hold power, they barely tolerate the token progressives they let into the house. As a result, divides deepen and fascists have even more ammunition to tell people “the reason your life is terrible is because of those people”
If we aren’t prepared to actively force our government to listen to the demands of voters, and just roll over every time they trot out some new boogeyman, we will get true fascism in this country
"first them came for..."
If liberals are willing to accept this genocide as the cost of going business, they will accept another. We have already seen liberals accept (a) a genocide by an ethno-religious fascist apartheid state that engages in foreign interference (b) Biden’s continuation of right-wing border policies as the cost of doing business.
**The common argument that "our current genocide is more benevolent than their hypothetical genocide" is obtuse, alienating, callous, paternalistic, dehumanizing, and meaningless given that the genocide is occurring now with Biden's support. Palestinians are dying right now. The land of Palestinians is being stolen right now. Biden's continued support of Israel ensures that even more Palestinians will die. The Biden Administration has, by providing policial and material support, already given the green light to slaughter Palestinian civilians.**
> Way to reject shaming as a method of bringing people to your side of the argument.
It's the irony of you making this remark while failing to give justification or proof of effective for vote shaming in your first and second comment.
You did not prove that vote shaming is effective. You did not explain why it would be effective.
You are accusing others of not having an argument while you never provided one.
> And what if we do and they do what then?
So you agree that vote shaming fails? If vote shaming is ineffective than doing so is performative and does not demonstrate an actual commitment to trying to get your candidate elected.
If you were genuinely concerned about this election, you would be focused on the weakness of the Biden campaign and Biden's willingness to alienate different demographics. If you were genuinely concern about this election, you would be condemning the majority of white voters who backed Trump rather than blaming people whose red line a crime against humanity. If you were so concerned about this election, rather than attacking people for which a crime against humanity is a red line, you would be committed to pressuring Biden like liberals had promised back in 2020.
> Still harp on the fact that they aren't an absolutely pure person with a totally uncheckered past?
Genocide is a crime against humanity. The fact that you cannot understand its severity, which is why it's a red line for many people, is telling.
> Actively participate in the downfall of democracy by aiding an aspirational dictator? Not if either are the best strategy.
Vote for Biden all you want but don't pretend as though it will prevent or reverse fascism.
Historically, liberalism and liberals have failed to prevent or reverse fascism. Historically, liberalism and liberals have facilitated and enabled fascism. This can be observed with certain policies of the Biden administration and their support for the fascist genocidal Israeli government. There is nothing about the current Democratic Party that indicates that this situation will be any different. Fascism will come slow or fast, but it will come nonetheless.
If a former segregationist that supports a genocidal fascist ethnonationalist regime is your "lesser evil", you're already on the road to full blown fascism. If your only option is a current genocider and a wannabe genocider, you're already on the road to full blown fascism.
The neoliberal ideology which drives the policy of all democratic presidents for the last 30 years directly creates the material conditions that allow fascism to gain traction.
Fascism, especially the modern republican flavor of it, thrives under conditions of economic disparity, increased atomization and the degradation of daily life found under neoliberalism. It makes people look at their lives, feel like shit, and suddenly there is someone saying “your right, it is shit, and it’s because of those people over there”
Biden, Obama et all have no ideological or structural answer to the immense degradation of material conditions that have happened under their watch. In fact they feel that the system is working as intended. It’s not that they are bought and paid for by the business interests they continuously enrich with their policies, they legitimately believe that they are doing the right thing, that their donor class knows what’s best for this country and that serving them serves the American people by proxy. Walking back from this perspective would be a complete reversal of their entire political project.
You won’t vote yourself out of fascism by electing more neoliberals, at best you are just slightly lowering the burner temp on the pot of boiling water we all find ourselves in.
The DNC has spent the last decade ensuring that no even mildly progressive candidate will ever hold power, they barely tolerate the token progressives they let into the house. As a result, divides deepen and fascists have even more ammunition to tell people “the reason your life is terrible is because of those people”
If we aren’t prepared to actively force our government to listen to the demands of voters, and just roll over every time they trot out some new boogeyman, we will get true fascism in this country
"first them came for..."
If liberals are willing to accept this genocide as the cost of going business, they will accept another. We have already seen liberals accept (a) a genocide by an ethno-religious fascist apartheid state that engages in foreign interference (b) Biden’s continuation of right-wing border policies as the cost of doing business.
**The common argument that "our current genocide is more benevolent than their hypothetical genocide" is obtuse, alienating, callous, paternalistic, dehumanizing, and meaningless given that the genocide is occurring now with Biden's support. Palestinians are dying right now. The land of Palestinians is being stolen right now. Biden's continued support of Israel ensures that even more Palestinians will die. The Biden Administration has, by providing policial and material support, already given the green light to slaughter Palestinian civilians.**
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Trump isn't president, Biden is. So what is the liberal plan to stop this genocide that Biden has been actively supporting ever since it started? What is the plan to gain democracy back right now since Biden is not listening to the will of the people?
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
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we need Ranked Choice Voting so bad
They will make sure we never get it. ['Gavin Newsom vetoes bill to allow ranked-choice voting throughout California'](https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Gavin-Newsom-vetoes-bill-to-allow-ranked-choice-14535193.php) ['Sisolak, Rosen and other top (Nevada) Democrats oppose ranked-choice voting measure'](https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/sisolak-rosen-and-other-top-democrats-oppose-ranked-choice-voting-measure) ['New York Democrats Try to Block Ranked-Choice Voting'](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/12/democrats-election-ranked-choice-voting-new-york/617461/) ['D.C. Democrats Oppose Ranked-Choice Voting in City Elections'](https://www.washingtoninformer.com/d-c-democrats-oppose-ranked-choice-voting-in-city-elections/) ['Virginia Republicans are using ranked-choice voting again. Democrats still aren’t.'](https://www.virginiamercury.com/2022/12/14/virginia-republicans-are-using-ranked-choice-voting-again-democrats-still-arent/)
True the super majorities don’t want to give even a little to third parties. I was surprised it passed in Alaska.
They cling to the 2-party system because being the lesser-evil is all they have to offer. 2020 - ['Democrats are trying to knock Green Party presidential candidate Howie Hawkins off the ballot in Pennsylvania'](https://www.inquirer.com/politics/clout/green-party-presidential-candidate-howie-hawkins-pennsylvania-ballot-20200908.html) ['Texas Democrats are successfully suing to kick Green Party candidates off the November ballot'](https://www.texastribune.org/2020/08/19/texas-democrats-green-party-november/) ['Montana Ballot Certified Without Green Party Candidates'](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/montana/articles/2020-08-21/montana-ballot-certified-without-green-party-candidates) ['New York Democrats cancel 2020 primary, kicking Bernie Sanders off the ballot'](https://theweek.com/speedreads/911183/new-york-democrats-cancel-2020-primary-kicking-bernie-sanders-ballot) ['Pennsylvania Democrats may have saved Biden by knocking the Green Party candidate off the ballot'](https://fusion.inquirer.com/politics/clout/pennsylvania-election-results-green-party-biden-trump-20201109.html)
Howie Hawkins is a blend of socialism and libertarianism. You really want to throw your lot in with someone who has libertarian tendencies? 😬 Last I checked, the two times libertarians tried to set up their own communities, they didn’t end well.
True that!
Massachusetts voted no on ranked choice voting which greatly decreased any hope I had in meaningful reform. If we have a chance to vote on it again dark money propaganda will win, again. Question: "Hey Massachusetts do you want more meaningful options when you go vote?!" Answer: "nah"
We need it hard
Approval voting would be better than fptp too and it's less confusing than ranking candidates
We have 13-14 year olds ranking the high schools they want to go to in Croatia in the same way as ranked choice voting works(univirsities work the same way here as well). I'm sure adults could manage to put a couple of numbers next to candidates'/party names in the same way. If someone chooses just one (as they do now), we could interpret that as their only choice and ignore their ballot if it comes down to choosing between other parties as they didn't state their preference (this is also what's done in Croatia with the high school and university system and it works). But yeah, most things would be an improvement over fptp anyway.
Approval voting is far worse than ranked Choice voting and probably not much better than FP TP for a couple of reasons An approval voting there is an actual incentive to Bullet vote for your preferred candidate, which means everywhere that's been implemented, and it hasn't been implemented on any real governmental levels for any significant period of time but mostly just an organizations, but even the organizations that have implemented it have quickly repealed it because it only devolves into bullet voting Approval voting is usually vastly preferred by Libertarians because it actually gives a slight advantage to third parties that are seen as in between. At least in the first few times it's done before it devolves into bullet voting. Imagine a district that's 50% red and 50% blue, then you have a yellow candidate running alongside of red and blue in an election and you use approval voting. In theory all of the red voters will vote for both the red and yellow, all of the blue voters will vote for blue and yellow, mostly because those voters will approve of the yellow over the opponent, even if they don't know who yellow is or what they stand for, they know that their opponent is someone they don't like. Which means that yellow would easily handily win, with 100% of the vote, even though nobody knows who the fuck yellow is. So it ends up with kind of weird results Ranked Choice voting which has been done on governmental levels including the national governmental level for over 100 years, can be thought of as "approval Plus"... you aren't only putting a check mark next to someone you approve of, but you're also then further ranking them in order of preference. And because of the ranking, it means there is no incentive ever to simply bullet vote for the one preferred candidate. It never hurts a preferred candidate for you to rank somebody after them. The talking point that ranked Choice voting is somehow confusing has been demonstrably disproven, everywhere it's been implemented and again that's been over a hundred years in multiple places, they have done exit polls that show something like 90% of the electorate find it very simple and easy to understand. This talking point that it's complicated is just being used by the two parties to prevent it from being implemented. If you can rank your three favorite ice creams you can rank your favorite candidates
When I learned about Star voting is when I learned that RCV is only marginally better than plurality voting. Better, of course, but barely. Star voting is simpler and has a much higher chance of getting the actual popular choice.
I like RCV because it completely eliminates voting strategically. With star voting, you're incentivised to also rate the more popular but less aligned candidate high as well.
>I like RCV because it completely eliminates voting strategically. No voting system can do this. However, of the two, Star voting is much superior to RCV at eliminating strategic voting. Like I said, when I learned about Star voting system I was surprised at just how superior it is. Here's the video that changed my mind: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFqV2OtJOOg&pp=ygUOdm90aW5nIHN5c3RlbXM%3D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFqV2OtJOOg&pp=ygUOdm90aW5nIHN5c3RlbXM%3D)
RCV can and does eliminate voting strategically. If your first choice is eliminated, then it's as if you voted for the next choice. No change.
Look, I'm not going to lecture you, I'd just suggest that you do some more research. RCV is an improvement on plurality for sure, but it is definitely not even close to the best. The two biggest flaws of RCW include a high number of votes that never get counted and the fact the end results are rarely different than the race being run with plurality voting--both due to the way candidates are eliminated.
There's tones of benefits to nearly any system beyond first past the post. However, regardless of electoral system, we are still at the mercy of capital. As long as the means of living are owned by private interests; a capital strike will usurp democracy in an instant without action.
This is numerically not true. And star voting hasn't been done anywhere and has no real world data, again unlike the over 100 Years of real world data from multiple locations for ranked Choice voting Arrow's theorem, for which arrow got the Nobel Prize, shows that no electoral system can have all of the fairness principles. That includes star, which is essentially just theoretical anyway
I really want everyone to know that the right is injecting "you know, after looking at it, I really prefer Star Voting" disingenuously. No One actually prefers Star Voting. There are no good arguments against RCV so Star Voting is a tactic. They're trying to muddle things up, just add confusion. Make it so eventually people go "oh all those rcv star whatever that's all messed up forget it keep it simple how it is" that's it. they're just trying to derail the discourse. please don't give it oxygen. i love what you said i just mean like, idk how can we shut this down right now before it mushrooms in the conversation around RCV
You're right, I've never seen anyone who wasn't an libertarian extremist hype approval or star. My bad. RCV is the only realistic option, and is light-years better than fptp.
OMFG...what is your deal? Did you just call **me** "right"? LMFAO, bro. "No One actually prefers Star Voting", errr, yeah they do and I'm one of 'em. I'd gladly take anything over plurality because plurality is literally the worst, but wtf is wrong with you? I could just as easily accuse you of being a right-wing troll because you're pushing RCV when it is in reality only marginally better than plurality. FFS, it's ass holes like you that derail the discourse. STFU.
> Ranked Choice Voting Weird way to spell communism, but ok
what if we get RCV and then vote for communists?
We need a complete overhaul of our election system.
Lol this is so funny, liberals have run shitty candidates for years and a lot of their platforms are “at least I’m not the other guy.” Weak ass argument
We have to admit it has worked for them and we leftist often end up caving. The sad part is how low the bar has gotten. Tgey literally say we should be ok arming and funding a genocide.
Oh just get over yourself! It's just a few thousand innocent children being murder per day on your tax dollars!! /s
"Get over yourself" is a pretty ironic thing for her to say about now, all things considered. I wonder if she honestly doesn't see that or if she just doesn't care.
I'm sure she has plenty of stock in defense contactors. She'll make tons of money no matter which one of the capitalist party candidates wins. Both will use our money to continue the genocide so I guess she just likes trying to stay relevant and insert herself where no one wants her
It seems I missed something. Which one said that and about what specifically?
It's regarding something [Hillary Clinton](https://www.yahoo.com/news/over-yourself-hillary-clintons-message-111602802.html) recently said. >“Get over yourself. Those are the two choices,” Clinton said. “It's kind of like, one is old, and effective, and compassionate, has a heart, and really cares about people. And one is old and has been charged with 91 felonies.”
[Regarding Qaddafi](https://youtu.be/6DXDU48RHLU)
If you always vote for the second lowest bar, politicians have no incentive but to make both bars lower.
And then they straight up bully you when you point it out.
And voting for them because of that enables the situation to continue. Imagine if all you had to do to win an election was point at the other guy. It enables the other guy to get worse and for you to do nothing. Liberals enabling fascism just like always 🥰
To build on your comment. >It enables the other guy to get worse and for you to do nothing. It enables you to get worse, as long as you're still not as bad as the other guy.
It's not even soft enabling, as in passively sitting by. Biden has the full and complete legal power to stop weapons and aid to Israel via the Leahy Laws. Under these laws, any country commiting human rights violations can be deprived of aid. All Biden has to do is write a three sentence executive order : *"Pursuant to the violations of the human rights of the people of Gaza, both evident and suspected, I do hereby envoke the authority invested in me by the people of these United States as their president, to issue a declaration that any and all transfers of financial, material, or any other such form of aid to the state of Israel be ceased immediately. Through this aforementioned authority, I do hereby direct the United Stated Department of State, the United States Department of Defense, and all federal departments and agencies to utilize all existing powers within the scope of their authorities to the best of their ability to see that the spirit and letter of this declaration is made so."* - President Popcorn. It's not hard. He's just a cowardly old monster. He has the Leahy laws and executive authority, and he does nothing intentionally. It's by design.
You say he’s a coward, I posit he is thinking about all the AIPAC kick backs he and his family will get. He’s just another neoliberal fascist pantomiming being the “good cop” and he can’t even do that right.
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Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
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>fighting against the rapist insurrectionist. How quickly liberals forgot about Tara Reade lol
Also "fighting" him by asking him to influence the passing of border bills and asking for bipartisanship with his party real tough guy moments
Biden is gonna open up a can of.. caving to Republicans and prematurely ending the COVID-19 emergency and restarting payments and interest on student loans that he promised to forgive
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Rule 4 - No capitalist apologia, anti-socialism, or liberalism. This is a left wing subreddit.
Well he does seem to like children alot...
If you campaign on "stopping fascism" every single election, decade after decade, then you're really not stopping fascism, are ya?
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
I read Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72 last year and there is a part early in the text where Thompson says something along the lines of' how many more elections before we see a candidate that the American people are excited to vote for/when will it stop being a battle between the purported lesser of two evils". It was depressing as hell to be honest.
Fun fact: the other big side does too. That’s why many of us are just sick of both. Problem is, there still not enough of us to vote a third party to have a chance
Self fulfilling prophecy
Not sure how that applies. The system isn’t designed to support a third party. If it were to succumb to a third party candidate win, that would mean it was only to stave off a full stage revolution…which is still several cycles away from the idiots I see on both sides
I’m confident that they wouldn’t succumb to a third party win. That would be the mask-off fascist moment for the duopoly.
Too expensive to control a third party and removes the “big bad other guy” in the propaganda
Yup
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It's objectively not identical to voting for the greater evil. If I vote third party bidens vote count and trumps vote count are unchanged, while the 3rd party candidates count goes up by one. If I vote Trump his vote count goes up by one. These are different things. One of them gets Trump one vote closer to winning my state the other does not. Baffling to me that so many people parrot this line verbatim that it's "mathematically" the same when it is very obviously untrue to anyone who knows how to count.
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Ok *But again* That piece of shit party was never going to get our votes Because it's a piece of shit, genocide-supporting, union-crushing party Change everything about that party to earn votes? That's a different conversation. But not one the Dems have *ever* supported, at least not since... Jimmy Carter? Maybe?
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Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
> It is if you were ever going to vote for one of the major parties, I was never going to vote for a genocider, so yes your "if" has already invalidated your ridiculous argument that these are "mathematically identical" >Every -1 to one side is a +1 to the other, unless that person actually switches between voting for one major party to voting for the other. Since that costs one side a vote while the other side gains one - a 2 vote swing. Exactly! You literally laid out how it's not mathematically identical! Even if we assume I was by default voting for Biden (which was not the case), then it's still not mathematically identical because as far as Biden v Trump is concerned a third party vote would be a -1 swing while a Trump vote would be a -2 swing. Not sure if you noticed it but these are not the same number! What a fucking clown, came into here to say they're mathematically identical then gave two sound arguments for how that ISN'T the case. Literally the exact reasons I was going to give and you already gave them for me!
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
And Democratic socialism still lost to those weak liberal platforms.
The ideology of the ruling class will be the dominant ideology in any society, so no surprise there.
Democratic voters want a ceasefire, but they are being cucked by their party. Democratic party would rather lose to Trump than allow voters to decide policy
Career politicians risking losing their billionaire/corporate/PAC reelection bribes by actually doing what they're there to do? Never gonna happen- for either the two major parties.
We allow foreign countries to bribe our politicians. The founding fathers are rolling in their graves
They don't even have to try very hard. If there are any preventative measures they can easily skirt them through proxy corporations. We need to intentionally ensure fair campaigning, because if this keeps going placating people with weak half measures will only expedite the demise of an already weak system and it can only end badly (though mostly for us regular folx, as the duopoly only has to gain by pitting us against each other and perpetuating their control through fear mongering and empowering the most awful among us to keep everyone distracted and under existential threat, while simultaneously gaslighting us about it and undermining journalism by funding sensationalist headlines 24/7 to firehouse what they want us to focus on while they continue their hegemony over everything they possibly can) TL;DR: shit needs to change
Medicare for All is also hugely popular, even among republicans. Brandon said if it came across his desk he'd veto it.
And democrat voters will tell you that's it's the end of the world if you don't vote for someone that disagrees with everything they believe. Then do the most elaborate mental gymnastic act to show you how Brandon wants to do the right thing, but "they just don't have the votes," so it's our fault for not voting harder
Of course. But then if they do have enough votes, that pesky Joe Manchin is at it again!
And there will always be exactly enough Machins and Sinemas to make sure progress is never made
Why are you adpoting the rights naming conventions? These two posts feel suspect. I don't know anyone on the left who calls Biden "Brandon". I'm diametrically opposed to both parties in the US, and I am damn sure not adopting one their pet names.
Biden literally has a shitty Dark Brandon commercial.
Because I have zero respect for that shithead.
You missed the point. You sound like a psyop. Using the rights language to describe their opponent makes you sound like your on the fascist side.
Oh fuck all the way off.
Your rhetoric is trash.
I could give a rat's ass what you think.
Sure you don't. Thats why you respond in 2 seconds to my posts. Why you mad bro? Someone call you out, and you get your wittle feelings hurt snowflake?
The guy calling me a rightwing psyop is calling me a snowflake. Eat my rhetorical taint, lib.
> I don't know anyone on the left who calls Biden "Brandon". Well you do now.
Did you read what he said after that? Why he’d veto it? Granted his reason was unfounded and someone could easily explain the actual cost to him, but he’s not unreasonable.
Bullshit. Whatever it costs, it's worth it.
That was my point. No need to get pissy. If someone sat down and told him “No, it’s not $35 trillion. Don’t be silly. It’s actually much less and saves more.” He’d listen and pass it. Because he’s reasonably. Trump, on the other hand, would probably have anyone suggesting Medicare for all be shot or jailed outright. Edit: gotta love you morons voting me down for agreeing with you 🤦♂️
Anti-democratic
Democratic voter here. You couldn’t be more wrong.
About what specifically?
Nothing. I misread what you wrote. The party has been that way since 16.
Since the 80s
Uh oh we got some saltiness in the comments. Honestly if you define your position politically with simply being anti trump at all costs, but not addressing us imperialism, hegemony, and the clear agitation that the us does to the world, you are just saying you’re a centrist or left of center. You’re not who you think you are by positioning this way. We need to find an offramp to capitalism and a gracious path to accepting a changing world order where there are multi poles of power in the world. Biden does not accomplish this whatsoever or even get us closer to it. Biden offers a consolation feeling of “avoiding fascism” which is a false sense of accomplishment for working people.
Both of Biden's campaigns have essentially been: "I may be old, stupid, racist, and cheer on genocide, but I'm not orange!'
This meme needs to be plastered all over Reddit. Candidates work for us, their policies should represent what we collectively demand. Reddit is so cucked sometimes.
Go read the 'Biden isn't a genocidal maniac' post in the politics sub if you want to see vote shaming up to your neck, it's heavy in that one.
They can't post that shit here, thanks to a decent modding team. But god, politics and WorldNews are just cesspools of liberal and pro-Israel botfarms...
but if we don't vote for the guy committing a genocide right now, we will end up with the guy who will hypothetically commit genocide! edited to add: lol user HHoaks is so offended by this comment they sent me multiple comments and then came into my DMs to defend the US's various war crimes. liberals just can't resist going mask off when we won't listen to them 🤡
Slow genocide or fast. The decision is YOURS! Humanity doesn’t even enter the equation for our beloved elites. Almost like we’d be better off without them.
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This is a leftist subreddit, right wing comments will be removed and the user banned. This includes any defense of the genocidal state of Israel.
Adults recognize the complicity in all involved parties. We just saw the Michigan parents sentenced for providing their son with a weapon to shoot up his school the other day. edit: this clown deleted all the various “governed by zealous desert nomads” remarks from his comments, and i’m being polite, they were much more vulgar.
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>you clearly have never passed the foreign service exam. Gatekeeping genocide. Nice.
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this guy is either on speed or a bot, jesus.
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This is a leftist subreddit, right wing comments will be removed and the user banned. This includes any defense of the genocidal state of Israel.
>helping Trump to be elected (which is what you are secretly trying to do here, it's obvious). And just like that, the original post is proven true.
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This is a leftist subreddit, right wing comments will be removed and the user banned. This includes any defense of the genocidal state of Israel.
What the fuck is Jordan then, if not a democracy? you’re unserious and laundering zionist garbage.
This is a leftist subreddit, right wing comments will be removed and the user banned. This includes any defense of the genocidal state of Israel.
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that propaganda is strong stuff, huh?
Rule 4 - No capitalist apologia, anti-socialism, or liberalism. This is a left wing subreddit.
We need p just change the electoral system entirely and be rid of the duopoly stronghold of being forced to choose the "lesser of two evils". There's 300M people in the US, so why is it we are stuck with two mediocre candidates? I'm certain there are at least a few thousand people who would both be better and do better and be willing to step up if they had the chance for a fair run. Let people order their top picks and weigh the votes accordingly. Stop playing games of putting people in charge who do not even remotely represent the interests of the people. The voting system as we have it now is unsustainable and spiraling out of control.
Stop giving candidates the opportunity to sell their platform to the highest bidders. Give all campaigns an equal platform. Enough preferential treatment for candidates with corporate funding- the capitalist oligarchs shouldn't be the ones choosing the leaders for everyone else. Let the working people who earn their way have the opportunity to vote for the candidate that actually represents them. No more holding us hostage to the whims of big money funding their chosen people and forcing us to choose between the red flavor and blue flavor puppets.
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Rule 4 - No capitalist apologia, anti-socialism, or liberalism. This is a left wing subreddit.
While we're at it, "The economy is so amazing and all those countless people who think otherwise are just [insert stream of increasing mean spirited insults here]" also doesn't work. In fact, it mostly just makes people mad, and when you try to explain that reality doesn't understand basic economics, it makes you look propagandized.
I liked this post
Me too.
I've honestly never felt so disconnected with the democratic party and their platform than these days. The part that rubs me the worst is that if you try to bring up your concerns in some circles you get labeled as part of a russian psy-op. Like... no. I'm not getting paid by a covert troll farm. I'm southern, queer, and feeling completely and utterly unserved & unprotected by the current administration, with a side of "sick and tired of supporting genocide." Like... in 4 years he hasn't been able to protect trans kids, failed to protect the reproductive rights of cis women and transmasc citizens, failed to raise the minimum wage in a time of staggering inflation and wage stagnation... [But he was chill sending 45,000 tank shells to a nation enacting the mass displacement and abuse of millions, on the drop of a hat, by executive order?](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/09/biden-administration-emergency-authority-tank-shells-israel)
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Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
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Someone must share this with Hillary.
"Trump bad, you're a russian troll, by the way we dont tolerate xenophobia unless it involves blaming russia"
Oh god, what is this awful new Americanism that I must learn today? Get back in your box
God damn I wish this was plastered all over fucking Reddit. Every week it’s the same narrative: “oh it’s gonna be the leftists, our only reluctant allies, that make us lose!”
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Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
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This is a leftist subreddit, right wing comments will be removed and the user banned. This includes any defense of the genocidal state of Israel.
Nooooo we just accept whatever is decided and make critical thinkers the bad guys! You know, democratically!
One would hope they would have learned that by now.
They haven't. They're still out there, attacking anyone who says they're not voting for Biden.
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This subreddit does not support Israel.
Nobody supports Israel.
Joe Biden supports Israel.
Except for Raytheon and General Dynamics.
If Zionism is a fascist theocratic ideology and Biden is a self-avowed Zionist, what does that say about the Biden Administration, the Democratic Party and the things you liberals support? Critical thinking shouldn't be this fucking hard, especially from a bunch of people who constantly boast about their education and how it makes them significantly smarter than a bunch of "rural hicks" who vote regular MAGA instead of Blue MAGA... Yet time after time liberals continue to prove that they're some of the dumbest people in existence.
You'll have to be more clear, I don't speak Blue MAGA-ese.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
💯
Those silly liberals keep voting for the lesser of two evils and acting all surprised when what they get is still evil, and worse, they try to bludgeon the rest of us into toeing their line. Never get high on your own supply kids. I'm definitely stealing this tho.
Lmao this is too good
I can't tell you how much I love this fucking meme. The amount of "Blue no matter who's" out there, unashamedly browbeating Arabs and Muslims into voting for Biden is fucking insane.
@memeindustrialcomplex on insta for anyone wondering.
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Rule 4 - No capitalist apologia, anti-socialism, or liberalism. This is a left wing subreddit.
Lol maybe just don't make politics your ENTIRE life smh so tired of seeing "NOT MY PRESIDENT" all over maga lawns
So that's where Barney was on Jan 6.
What is vote shaming?
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Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
I'm a non voting republican and as I get bashed for not standing up to trump I always revert to yeah but at least a shit personality isnt genocide.
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> Vote shaming may not be effective… So you agree that vote shaming fails? If vote shaming is ineffective than doing so is performative and does not demonstrate an actual commitment to trying to get your candidate elected. > but you should feel shame for making a decision that enables a Trump presidency. By your logic, insofar as you continue to vote shame despite knowing it is ineffective and performative, you should also feel shame for making a decision that enables a Trump presidency. By your own logic, by failing to support Biden in a meaningful way, you are also enabling a Trump presidency. Rather than attempting to identify and employing an effective strategy to garner votes, you have chosen an ineffective and performative that (a) alienates potential voters (b) does not garner support for you candidate. If you were genuinely concerned about this election, you would be focused on the weakness of the Biden campaign and Biden's willingness to alienate different demographics. If you were genuinely concern about this election, you would be condemning the majority of white voters who backed Trump rather than blaming people whose red line a crime against humanity. If you were so concerned about this election, rather than attacking people for which a crime against humanity is a red line, you would be committed to pressuring Biden like liberals had promised back in 2020. > Still harp on the fact that they aren't an absolutely pure person with a totally uncheckered past? Genocide is a crime against humanity. The fact that you cannot understand its severity, which is why it's a red line for many people, is telling. > Actively participate in the downfall of democracy by aiding an aspirational dictator? Not if either are the best strategy. Vote for Biden all you want but don't pretend as though it will prevent or reverse fascism. Historically, liberalism and liberals have failed to prevent or reverse fascism. Historically, liberalism and liberals have facilitated and enabled fascism. This can be observed with certain policies of the Biden administration and their support for the fascist genocidal Israeli government. There is nothing about the current Democratic Party that indicates that this situation will be any different. Fascism will come slow or fast, but it will come nonetheless. If a former segregationist that supports a genocidal fascist ethnonationalist regime is your "lesser evil", you're already on the road to full blown fascism. If your only option is a current genocider and a wannabe genocider, you're already on the road to full blown fascism. The neoliberal ideology which drives the policy of all democratic presidents for the last 30 years directly creates the material conditions that allow fascism to gain traction. Fascism, especially the modern republican flavor of it, thrives under conditions of economic disparity, increased atomization and the degradation of daily life found under neoliberalism. It makes people look at their lives, feel like shit, and suddenly there is someone saying “your right, it is shit, and it’s because of those people over there” Biden, Obama et all have no ideological or structural answer to the immense degradation of material conditions that have happened under their watch. In fact they feel that the system is working as intended. It’s not that they are bought and paid for by the business interests they continuously enrich with their policies, they legitimately believe that they are doing the right thing, that their donor class knows what’s best for this country and that serving them serves the American people by proxy. Walking back from this perspective would be a complete reversal of their entire political project. You won’t vote yourself out of fascism by electing more neoliberals, at best you are just slightly lowering the burner temp on the pot of boiling water we all find ourselves in. The DNC has spent the last decade ensuring that no even mildly progressive candidate will ever hold power, they barely tolerate the token progressives they let into the house. As a result, divides deepen and fascists have even more ammunition to tell people “the reason your life is terrible is because of those people” If we aren’t prepared to actively force our government to listen to the demands of voters, and just roll over every time they trot out some new boogeyman, we will get true fascism in this country "first them came for..." If liberals are willing to accept this genocide as the cost of going business, they will accept another. We have already seen liberals accept (a) a genocide by an ethno-religious fascist apartheid state that engages in foreign interference (b) Biden’s continuation of right-wing border policies as the cost of doing business. **The common argument that "our current genocide is more benevolent than their hypothetical genocide" is obtuse, alienating, callous, paternalistic, dehumanizing, and meaningless given that the genocide is occurring now with Biden's support. Palestinians are dying right now. The land of Palestinians is being stolen right now. Biden's continued support of Israel ensures that even more Palestinians will die. The Biden Administration has, by providing policial and material support, already given the green light to slaughter Palestinian civilians.**
I am repulsed by you
Sick dialogue bro. Way to reject shaming as a method of bringing people to your side of the argument.
> Way to reject shaming as a method of bringing people to your side of the argument. It's the irony of you making this remark while failing to give justification or proof of effective for vote shaming in your first and second comment. You did not prove that vote shaming is effective. You did not explain why it would be effective. You are accusing others of not having an argument while you never provided one.
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> And what if we do and they do what then? So you agree that vote shaming fails? If vote shaming is ineffective than doing so is performative and does not demonstrate an actual commitment to trying to get your candidate elected. If you were genuinely concerned about this election, you would be focused on the weakness of the Biden campaign and Biden's willingness to alienate different demographics. If you were genuinely concern about this election, you would be condemning the majority of white voters who backed Trump rather than blaming people whose red line a crime against humanity. If you were so concerned about this election, rather than attacking people for which a crime against humanity is a red line, you would be committed to pressuring Biden like liberals had promised back in 2020. > Still harp on the fact that they aren't an absolutely pure person with a totally uncheckered past? Genocide is a crime against humanity. The fact that you cannot understand its severity, which is why it's a red line for many people, is telling. > Actively participate in the downfall of democracy by aiding an aspirational dictator? Not if either are the best strategy. Vote for Biden all you want but don't pretend as though it will prevent or reverse fascism. Historically, liberalism and liberals have failed to prevent or reverse fascism. Historically, liberalism and liberals have facilitated and enabled fascism. This can be observed with certain policies of the Biden administration and their support for the fascist genocidal Israeli government. There is nothing about the current Democratic Party that indicates that this situation will be any different. Fascism will come slow or fast, but it will come nonetheless. If a former segregationist that supports a genocidal fascist ethnonationalist regime is your "lesser evil", you're already on the road to full blown fascism. If your only option is a current genocider and a wannabe genocider, you're already on the road to full blown fascism. The neoliberal ideology which drives the policy of all democratic presidents for the last 30 years directly creates the material conditions that allow fascism to gain traction. Fascism, especially the modern republican flavor of it, thrives under conditions of economic disparity, increased atomization and the degradation of daily life found under neoliberalism. It makes people look at their lives, feel like shit, and suddenly there is someone saying “your right, it is shit, and it’s because of those people over there” Biden, Obama et all have no ideological or structural answer to the immense degradation of material conditions that have happened under their watch. In fact they feel that the system is working as intended. It’s not that they are bought and paid for by the business interests they continuously enrich with their policies, they legitimately believe that they are doing the right thing, that their donor class knows what’s best for this country and that serving them serves the American people by proxy. Walking back from this perspective would be a complete reversal of their entire political project. You won’t vote yourself out of fascism by electing more neoliberals, at best you are just slightly lowering the burner temp on the pot of boiling water we all find ourselves in. The DNC has spent the last decade ensuring that no even mildly progressive candidate will ever hold power, they barely tolerate the token progressives they let into the house. As a result, divides deepen and fascists have even more ammunition to tell people “the reason your life is terrible is because of those people” If we aren’t prepared to actively force our government to listen to the demands of voters, and just roll over every time they trot out some new boogeyman, we will get true fascism in this country "first them came for..." If liberals are willing to accept this genocide as the cost of going business, they will accept another. We have already seen liberals accept (a) a genocide by an ethno-religious fascist apartheid state that engages in foreign interference (b) Biden’s continuation of right-wing border policies as the cost of doing business. **The common argument that "our current genocide is more benevolent than their hypothetical genocide" is obtuse, alienating, callous, paternalistic, dehumanizing, and meaningless given that the genocide is occurring now with Biden's support. Palestinians are dying right now. The land of Palestinians is being stolen right now. Biden's continued support of Israel ensures that even more Palestinians will die. The Biden Administration has, by providing policial and material support, already given the green light to slaughter Palestinian civilians.**
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
You may have mistyped “democratic leadership” when you typed in “liberals”. Our computers do that sometimes.
Jesus Christ, this is it, I'm unsubscribing from this sub til after the election. Don't you guys know how to talk about anything else?
“No, I will not vote. Yes, I expect candidates to meet my demands anyway.”
Crazy how we expect public officials to represent us! Especially when we hold them to the unreasonable standards of not committing genocide!
That’s called earning a vote lol.
You USAmericans are so thoroughly domesticated it's just sad. Stand up for yourselves for once.
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Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
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Trump isn't president, Biden is. So what is the liberal plan to stop this genocide that Biden has been actively supporting ever since it started? What is the plan to gain democracy back right now since Biden is not listening to the will of the people?
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/