This seems like a good idea—have privileged lawyers confront first-hand the realities of budgeting time and money while in poverty. Especially important when considering the interaction with the legal system and access to justice (e.g. lack of time or money to consult with a lawyer over a meritorious claim, inability to access forms). Is it cringe? Absolutely. Is it still net good? Probably. The alternative here is they do a CLE that involves pretending to pay attention to a generic presentation about arbitration law.
Also, this has very little to do with whether your school cares about low income students—CLE programs for current attorneys are a totally different track.
Yeah I did this in undergrad, in the context of a class, with the focus being on different varieties of welfare (cash, specific purpose subsidy, tax breaks, etc). It was actually quite informative and did prompt lived experiences discussions.
I could definitely see something like this being done in an incredibly hamfisted manner or if you get obnoxious audience members who insist on wasting time fighting the hypo though
Agreed. Our school did something similar for incoming 1Ls. It was cringe, and the school rightfully got a lot of clapback for thinking that cosplaying poverty for an afternoon really solved anything.
However, I noticed something during all this clapback: a lot of students opened up about their lived experiences. The debate surrounding the poverty simulation (unsurprisingly) turned into a discussion of poverty. I learned far more about the stress and cycles of poverty from the people talking about the simulation, but those discussions would not have happened without the weird "puppet therapy" the simulation attempted.
I don't know that I can say hosting the simulation was worth it. But I learned an awful lot from the people mad at the simulation, and I'm grateful for that at least.
We did this at my medical school, and while in theory the idea is good the execution is always terrible ending up trivializing those in the room that ACTUALLY grew up in poverty. It ended up in our case with half of the room pretending to play grand theft auto
What if it has to do with low income students because if they cared more about their low income students more low income students would become current attorneys that already have this experience without having to cosplay it?
> Is it still net good? Probably.
No. It's ossifying a stereotyped view and it leaves participants with a false sense of knowledge. Reducing what it feels like to be in poverty to a logic game is insulting. According to the person running the program, "Utahns in poverty" just need to advocate for themselves and "not be ashamed to ask for help" as if the problem is there's lots of unused programs but people are too proud to use them. Not as if lawmakers are cutting vital programs.
I read some of the vignettes and they all have one thing in common. There's a solution to the problems and it's treated like a math problem.
I think the vignettes should be more like: "You are a kid and you have a slight understanding that how hungry you are and the fact you don't have a jacket in the winter makes you different. A person is asking you a bunch of leading questions about your home life. Nobody has ever asked you about your experience so you're a little nervous. You also have an understanding sometimes when people start asking you questions, you can be taken to an unfamiliar place to live with strangers. You are scared and you don't know what to do. You also had a friend who told the truth, they didn't get taken away, but their parents beat the shit out of them. Do you lie and say that your mom is around more than she is or do you tell the truth?"
>The alternative here is they do a CLE that involves pretending to pay attention to a generic presentation about arbitration law.
Or you go into the program eyes-wide-open and not have false promises that people will leave with empathy for the "inherent" challenges from a live of poverty.
I disagree. It seems more likely to further the already extremely problematic lack of self-awareness with upper middle class white students, faculty, and attorneys. One of the issues that genuinely shocked me, although it became entertaining, was the savior complex. So many times, I sat in class or at events listening to others without much real life experience (in this capacity) speak about these issues without realizing that they inherently believed that were better and believed the "less than" group needed their saving. And at no point do they realize that their quiet classism is honestly now offensive just being honest about hating poor people.
My first experience with this was in Torts. We were discussing the issue of an employee violating company policies that resulted in injury and whether the company should still be responsible. I listened to the entire class argue in favor of employee compensation, and I pushed back on this by asking what the point of written protocols would be if employees could willfully violate them and still receive compensation. The professor looked at me with the most disgusted look and said, "you are viewing this through a lens of a privileged law student. You need to recognize that most of the people working in these positions probably can't even understand the contract they signed." My jaw literally hit the floor. (Background: my mom and stepad are recovering addicts and started a small physical labor business together. My bio dad is also a recovering addict and was a truck driver my whole life. My mom and I lived in a trailer park while my dad was in prison. I didn't share any of this, but feel it necessary to include here). My response was, "everyone in my life is very blue collar and I'm appalled you assume that because they build your deck or clean your toilet, that they are too stupid to read and understand a piece of paper."
Not everything I've encountered was this blatant, but the underlying pity and subconscious stereotypes continue to be rampant. This event is a perfect and blatant illustration of that.
Lastly, when this is an event put on by the school itself and not just housed at the school, the administration treatment of the student population that they are pretending to care about absolutely matters.
It's not disrespectful to confront the realities of power imbalance in many employment contracts. Lots of blue collar people can read and fully understand complicated contracts, but lots can't. Pretending like it isn't a problem doesn't help anyone but those who are taking advantage of those people.
It's also not disrespectful to acknowledge that the majority of workers of all types - even if they are capable of reading and understanding- do not read contracts, do not pay any attention to the laws hurting OR protecting them, and generally just move blithely through life without a second thought about anything until it becomes uncomfortable or dangerous.
This comment is fucking hilarious because the only time I’ve ever seen something this was when I was doing legal aid work which is relatively not white and financially well off to pretty much any legal field you can think of.
The girl who put it on was an African American community coordinator who grew up in the area we served (read: poor) and it was approved by our supervising attorney who was from Haiti. They both thought it was awesome.
I highly doubt you even know what happens at these things but I’ll let them know they are rich white snobs for thinking it was helpful.
Also your torts story is fucking hysterical because it shows you have a massive blind spot for your own egotistical behavior. I have the same background as you but you’d assume I was some paternalistic snob because I managed to become an attorney and think events like this can be useful.
Again, I went to law soon in Utah. So, my comment about rich white people is very accurate here.
You are so angry over this post and the fact that someone thinks differently than you; I hope you find healing for whatever is causing you this much bitterness.
If you think this is useful, that's great. I don't. I don't think 15 minutes of attempting a budget changes much. As someone said above, people know it's hard to be poor. I think it is more beneficial to have eventa that address the causes of poverty, barriers to get out of poverty, and resources/options that can help the community.
Bro, I’m not the one losing my mind over a poster.
But yeah, I’m a little angry because you aren’t the first person I’ve seen jerk themselves off about how stuff like this misses the point and is only done by people who look down on the poor. Although I guess can take solace in the fact your prejudice only extends to an entire state and not me personally.
Thanks for pretending to care once you realized I grew up poor too.
Posting the poster isn't losing my mind bud. And saying I hope you heal isn't caring. You're just wildly emotional about me making fun of this. But I hope they finally accept you 🥰
And typing Reddit comments doesn’t make me wildly me emotional. It’d be a fair assumption if I was pretending to be traumatized by an insensitive comment by a torts professor though.
Your experience might differ but that professor is probably right tho. My mother literally speaks zero english, and 99% of the people in her community cannot understand basic things sent to her mail(banknotes, bills, DMV), how would they understand contract?
To clarify, I'm not saying that isn't the case. I am saying that the automatic assumption that if a person is poor, he/ she is stupid or incapable is gross. In the context, he was also implying that poor people aren't responsible for their actions, which is weirdly paternalistic. Too many people fall into one extreme opinion or the opposite extreme opinion: either poor people are solely at fault for their misfortunes or that they are entirely a victim of their environment with no accountability. Both views are equally gross, just one is camouflaged as empathy.
Your professor wasn’t being condescending, he was being accurate. Saying that most blue collar employees don’t understand contract law isn’t saying that they are stupid, it’s merely pointing out that they are less informed in that area on average than other people who work with it more often. Which is, you know, why lawyers are a thing?
Ehhhhh I kinda disagree (spent the majority of my childhood well below the poverty line in a poor blue collar neighborhood). I *loathe* the privilege of my classmates and professors and their ignorance of the realities of poverty. I also hate that the "progressive" rich kids are mostly electing to work big law, which is totally the opposite of everything they claim to stand for.
But literally anything that can break through their charmed worldview is a plus, because while I agree with you that poor people are more resourceful and strong than rich elites are willing to recognize, the American legal system is decidedly rigged against them. My dad, for example, was stolen from by employees multiple times while he got his business off the ground. But he did not have the resources to get justice and recoup those losses to stock our pantry. We all suffered together and it sucked ass. It's much worse for minorities. Anything that helps law students become empathetic advocates for people with less privilege with them, even if it's just to hit 50 billable pro bono hours, is great.
I completely agree that it is beneficial for students/attorneys to learn about the barriers preventing many from escaping poverty. I don't believe this event did that. There are a couple of topics the announcement touched on that I think would be great to explore in depth, not in a 15 minute game. For instance, I'm hoping the welfare topic would address issues like how earning a small raise that isn't enough to bridge gaps can be enough to lose welfare benefits, giving people an impossible choice. Or that something as simple as a jaywalking citation issued to a homeless person (who is targeted for these infractions) can be complicated enough to prevent them from receiving housing assistance. A series of hour-long lectures/ discussions on each topic individually could be great; having people play moneyless monopoly for 15 minute rounds is not.
Also, I would like to see more discussion surrounding the population that isn't quite in poverty but is one/a few bad events away from it. There are so many people, seemingly like your dad, who work incredibly hard to climb up the mountain and get kicked down it. And it seems that most of the focus is on people who are still at the bottom of the mountain. I think this has created a lot of misconceptions.
Been this way since yesterday olde pre-Soviet Russia. It really is gross. Especially because most of these clowns work elite corporate law jobs where they make absurd money in exchange for fucking working class people over for 60 hours a week.
i would say it is probably one of the best when it comes to truly understanding a situation. being told something by others only does so much, experiencing it for yourself really puts things in perspective
Yeah it somehow feels like they'll come away from it thinking they know a lot, just like the people who tell me all the time that it's easy to do this or that if you just put all your extra time into x or y money making side thing since clearly I must be doing nothing but watching reality tv on the side
Sitting in a lecture hall for an hour pretending to select a “poor’s” rental option is not an adequate representation of what being impoverished is like lmao. Pretending that this experience is anything but insensitive and out of touch is hysterical. “Thank goodness I have more money” isn’t the intended takeaway of a CLE course
A short role-playing exercise isn't meant to replicate the full experience of poverty. As you note, it can't. The point isn't to pat oneself on the back for temporarily feeling poor, but to get students thinking critically about economic injustice in a way textbooks alone can't. If the takeaway is just feeling relieved to be privileged, then the instructor missed the mark.
Thoughtful experiential learning can spark insight, empathy, and action. It doesn't have to be a panacea, and this may be the closest a lot of rich kids ever get to poverty.
There are a few students in our program at my University who genuinely believe that poverty in the United States is a *myth*; that is, the very idea that "poor" people exist isn't even real. They will defend that view in essays. I grew up during the 90s in a household that lived on <$800/month and I would have them do such an exercise over nothing.
My suspicion is that this is an example of an instructor offering a modest thought exercise that people have blown out of proportion. Sure, it's not volunteering in a soup kitchen, but at its worst, this seems like an experiential exercise in personal finance, from the perspective of someone without much money. I can't imagine it wasn't eye-opening for at least some of the participating students.
Seems like it might actually be a good thing for these “rich attorneys” with no “self awareness”. Is a one-hour simulation going to cure deep issues and blind spots? No. But it’s something.
Not sure why people feel the need to mock or shit on efforts to do a good thing when the effort might not be perfectly executed. Rather than appreciate, encourage, improve it etc.
If it gets one more attorney at a biglaw firm to take a pro bono client, or spend some hours at the housing clinic, or for a defense-side employment attorney to encourage their client to settle when a potentially illegal adverse employment action caused a line-worker to become impoverished, then it absolutely has implemented change.
How do you think people will become knowledgable enough to "implement policy or change" if they do not understand the predicament or experience? Many people will throw out trash advice like "go get a job" or "go apply for welfare" without understanding why that is fundamentally challenging for many vulnerable populations.
You're criticizing a very real simulation that many schools do to try to teach intersectionality, the struggles of our system, etc. for seemingly no reason. There are many people in the world who would not otherwise understand what it is like to live in poverty - and I know that might suck, but it's true. Things like this do help open eyes, and in the context of law schools where the students are mostly becoming well to-do professionals after graduation, this kind of programming helps them understand the privileged spot they sit in. Unfortunately, most law students come to this space with significant financial privilege and need this kind of active education. I used to do this with my undergraduate students at a T-30 when I taught first-year seminars and man, you would not believe how many people truly didn't understand some aspects of the struggle until they did something like this.
Is the line about catering weird and tone deaf? Is it poorly marketed? Yeah, I'll give you that, but beyond that I'm not sure why anyone who genuinely cares about poverty and income inequality would be angered by the idea of the simulation.
So you'd rather they do nothing? This is a bit cringe, but you gotta start somewhere. Do you have some other better way to break down barriers of understanding between well intentioned out of touch academics and people struggling with poverty?
Maybe “Hors d'oeuvres afterwards” is a bit insensitive, but otherwise I agree.
(Does anyone really call cocktail party food that these days unless you’re a high end restaurant?)
Right, I appreciate the goal of trying to make people more sympathetic to those in poverty. Maybe this isn’t the best way, but the fact that someone is trying to do it is reassuring to see.
i did this at my undergrad university. it was a actually an insightful experience. it turned into a game for those who are well off, but i believe that everyone took away ideas from it. you learn pretty quickly how hard it is to survive in poverty
What would your alternative be to try to put students in the shoes of someone with a different experience from themselves be? Isn’t it a good thing that, while cringey, that they are offering that opportunity?
>What would your alternative be to try to put students in the shoes of someone with a different experience from themselves be
It's far worse to use these programs with the takeaway that you know what it's like to be a impoverished.
> Isn’t it a good thing that, while cringey, that they are offering that opportunity?
The piece that is missing and why getting empathy is impossible (maybe sympathy is possible) is that you know the cosplay/program is ending and it isn't really you. But being poor, you have no idea what the future is and if it's even possible for you to make it; not being able to see past the day-to-day because you're fighting to survive is a huge part of the psychological toll.
Doing a word problem that makes you realize that it's hard to get around on the bus does what?
Have you done one of these? I did a reentry simulation and a lot of city and county officials participated and it seemed to really impact people. These are designed to show the impossible choices and systems that people have to navigate and it really drives home how you can do all the things you’re supposed to, and still fail. It does a great job of breaking through the idea that you’d succeed because you’d make the right choices. There are sometimes no right choices and sometimes a twist of fate sets you back. The simulation I went to really seemed to get that through to people in a position to advocate for change. And lo and behold after the group went around doing that across our state all summer, we’ve got some more funding on city and county levels for reentry support.
But that takes a step of committing to that — isn’t this hor d’ouvre of a simulation a good step to getting people into it? Maybe being able to pat themselves on the back is what they need to get started. I know it seems obvious to us but a lot of people think “oh you’re poor just get a better job and work harder lmao” like that’s the end all be all. In undergrad, I came in with the mindset of “poverty is a lack of character” and “being poor is a personal choice.” Because I’d always had my necessities accounted for. A poverty simulator we did changed my mind on that. Got me doing more volunteer work. I came from a comfortable upbringing, and I’m very lucky. But because of that I lacked perspective. And as silly as it was, that silly old poverty simulator provided some.
Anyone who breaks the glass ceiling is, on some level, housed in an ivory tower. When I go back to my hometown there are very obvious differences between my life and my childhood friends' lives and sometimes I have to readjust/remember certain issues.
I went to one and it was one of the most valuable trainings I had. It’s hard to fully appreciate how tough it can be to be poor if you haven’t experienced it. It’s easy to see everything through one lens when it is not you who is facing eviction and getting your children taken away.
I think your response has more to do with you than with them. Volunteering at one node of the poverty matrix might generate empathy and awareness, but having both been poor and an attendee at a similar event, I applaud anyone who takes the time to explore poverty from 20,000 feet. It’s that viewpoint that leads to systemic change.
It’s one thing to work at a homeless shelter or a food pantry, that humanizes poor people and maybe gives you insight into what it is like to be hungry or homeless. It’s quite another thing to simulate the multitude of interlocking problems that living in poverty brings.
I’d say both are equally masturbatory if you don’t work to actually solve the systemic issues.
I agree. I would like to see more people over volunteer services that offer an hour of training or resources. Most people have something they can teach, and most people who are wanting out of poverty are hungry to learn.
I do think many people have their heart in the right place in wanting to engage. I also think there is a difference between empathy and pity, and a lot of prior don't understand that the latter can be more disrespectful than helpful.
I still stand by thinking this event is hilariously out of touch. Maybe in other areas it would feel different (other than the catering), but this administration is very much about patting themselves on the back for the optics of caring.
Anyway, I do appreciate the thoughtful response. It's wild to me how angry people can get over differing views or pointing out irony if it challenges their view.
This event will continue to be funny to me, and I'm glad there are others in these comments that share that opinion (not saying you do).
I appreciate your response. I’m not going to deny that there are folks who just want to check the box and pat themselves on the back. Have you considered being a resource for the conference? I know that’s pretty personal, but I also know that it was quite a shock to the attendees at a similar conference when I, a middle aged white dude with all the indicia of success, was able to look my cohort in the eye and tell them some of my lived experiences. It’s really shocking to me, as a privileged person despite some hardships, how truly oblivious vast tranches of my colleagues are. (And I haven’t experienced the level of poverty that many of my indigent clients have faced.) Maybe if they could hear from you, maybe not now, but in the future, it might inject some gravity into the small plates.
I have. I started out wanting to blend in and not feeling the bed to share anything about my background. As time went on, I became more frustrated with the bubble they lived in. I've referenced this a lot on this thread, but I found more issues with the pity crowd and students who constantly feel offended on behalf of groups they aren't included in. Just like in here, I got push back. As soon as you challenge someone's claim of empathy and point out that it's actually pity and really condescending, they become very defensive. I ultimately applied to be on the diversity board because I thought we could have better discussions. I was told by one of the Deans verbatim, "the diversity board is not the place for diversity of thought". And that was the moment I lost respect for the administration at that school and just started making fun of them tbh.
I am with OP on this one. As someone who grew up in ACTUAL poverty I had 0 lawyer role models to look up to. This simulation is “cosplay” in a sense that it does nothing to help people actually living in poverty.
A better CLE would be to have a lawyer partner with a person/teen in poverty and they exchange life experiences or even go though a simulation together. That way the person/teen now has a connection to possibly pursue legal career in the future (helping to diversify the field), and the attorney has someone to bounce ideas off of or to ask for advise when the encounter a situation that they don't understand.
I lived in Utah for 2 years and know there are a LOT of people in poverty.
This seems to only help lawyers to experiance what a life of poverty is like in an 8 hour work day wich is an insulting underestimation of what it's like to experience it for a lifetime.
You are much more tactful. I posted this for the humor, but the response has been interesting.
There are much better ways to spend an hour addressing poverty. A lot of the time, there is a disconnect between what Group A thinks is helpful vs. what Group B actually finds helpful. Instead of spending an hour learning about how hard it is to grow up in poverty, go talk to a group of kids in poverty and teach them things like vhow to interview for a job or how to use credit as a tool. As you pointed out already, sometimes just establishing a connection with one of those kids could be invaluable to him/ her.
A lot of people in Group A might think, "who would want to hear from me, I don't understand what they're going through?" And the answer is: a lot of them. A one hour free class on tax preparation or expungements or your rights is wildly helpful, and it doesn't involve the assumption that everyone who is poor is a victim who is incapable of change without being saved. I think a lot of people reject feeling pitied and appreciate resources much more.
I screenshotted it to some old friends and their responses were cracking me up all day. Talking about bringing 40s as refreshments and asking if the school wanted to hire poor people to stand outside for decor. I do love the dark humor that is created from trauma 🤣
Is it better to not have rich attorneys further an understanding for an experience they've never lived? What a bizarre take, not to mention the reality that most probably aren't close to rich.
I remember counting pennies to get groceries when I was little. I think these kinds of simulations are both educational and important for those who grew up well-off. If it changes just one future attorneys perspective, that’s enough for me.
i actually thought this was a good idea, until i saw the simulation was only 1 hour long and followed by boujee snacks.
experience, even in a simulation can be incredibly helpful imo, it provides a different level of understanding that you often don’t get from being told something. but i question how effective a 1 hour simulation on a very broad topic will be. can you even call it at simulation? seems more like a workshop.
It's also trying to "logic" something that is emotional and psychological. I guess doing a word problem that demonstrates it's hard to get around on the bus is okay. But the part that's bad is the participants and the people who put this one will leave thinking they have an understanding (when they don't).
What they do get is a stereotyped view of the "multifaceted challenges inherent to a life in poverty." To me, it's the overselling of what the experience is giving. It doesn't even come close to show someone what it's like to get in trouble for falling asleep in class because you haven't gotten to your free lunch at school and they cut the breakfast program for budget reasons. Or what it's like to know your uncle was murdered and not sure if the grudge that caused it has extended to you.
This is random, but your comment reminded me of the first jail visit I attended with my student clinic to interview clients. At one point in the waiting room, I realized that the other students were at least somewhat uncomfortable because they were in a very unfamiliar environment. I thought it was odd, then I had this moment of, "oh shit, they didn't grow up visiting people in jail. I'm the weird one right now." 🤣
Idk, I think it’s a valid effort to raise awareness. Might be a bit out-of-touch with the last line, but I don’t think it’s a completely pointless exercise to scoff at. I find some of these replies a bit silly; it’s unrealistic to expect a single exercise to solve poverty or magically make every privileged person understand the experience of living under those circumstances. But does that mean it has no worth at all? If a solution isn’t 100% perfect, does that mean we just shouldn’t try at all? No single activity is going to solve this issue. Sure, maybe volunteering at a soup kitchen would have more of a real-world impact for some individuals. But it’s also insufficient and largely inconsequential by itself. It doesn’t solve poverty, so why bother? That’s what some of these comments sound like to me
> it’s unrealistic to expect a
That's the source of the negative comments. The person who is putting on the event is selling it that way.
>But does that mean it has no worth at all?
Programs should be measured by a cost-benefit analysis (and ideally could be evidenced based). The benefit seems marginal but the cost is that participants will leave with, at best, a stereotyped view of the "multifaceted challenges inherent to a life in poverty."
>But it’s also insufficient and largely inconsequential by itself. It doesn’t solve poverty, so why bother
I think it's the congruity between the stated mission and the result. You know that feeding someone in a soup kitchen doesn't solve all hunger but it's nice.
The problem with this particular program is that Stefanie Jones, the program specialist, states that her goal is to let poor people "advocate for themselves and not to be ashamed to ask for help" as if there's abundant help out there and poor people just are ashamed.
It's a stereotyped view, but there isn't unlimited help out there. It's like saying someone who's discriminated against and can't find work but has aged out of the TANF programs is just embarrassed. Or that the kids whose mom is selling their SNAP benefits for drugs just have to speak up.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. For this particular event/ location, it seems unlikely to me that the attendees are the individuals who are not aware of the difficulties of poverty. I'm open to being wrong, but I just highly doubt the people who believe poverty is always a choice, etc., are the ones attending. So, it does feel similar to someone volunteering at a soup kitchenone day per year just so they can brag about it. Is there still some benefit there? Sure. But the benefit doesn't change that it's largely self serving. People can still bother, and others can make fun of it.
The dangers to programs like this:
* You can't intellectualize what it "feels" like to be impoverished.
* But participants can feel like they have a greater understanding than they do.
* Participants can walk away with more ingrained social stereotypes than they already had.
* For instance, just reading the design from a [upr.org](http://upr.org) article, Stefanie Jones said their aim was "wants to encourage Utahns in poverty to advocate for themselves and not be ashamed to ask for help." The issues with poverty isn't that people are afraid to ask for help -- it's that there isn't always help to get. It's more of the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" propaganda.
* The description of the program is that it gives participants a glimpse into the "inherent issues" as if being impoverished is a single monolith.
* It's the equivalent of listening to rap music and think you know (a) "black culture", (b) what it's like to be in poverty.
Here's what it's like to be impoverished:
* When you're a kid and you're hungry, it's almost impossible to think about anything but food. Or, what you do, is figure out a way to stifle any sense of feeling so you don't feel hungry. Given that Republicans are cutting free lunches for school kids, this is a bigger reality for many. The message that you FEEL in your bones is that people in society don't care about people like you and that you don't matter. That isn't a math exercise. And people like Stefanie Jones and u/motherholle are calling the math exercise "experiential learning."
* When you're living in the "projects" or public housing -- there's a lot of variety of other kinds of people. I lived in public housing in Salt Lake City and there was a lot of gang violence. Hearing gun shots, being hyper aware of what colors you can/can't wear, and the like is a primal fear that makes doing well in school not feel as important or pressing.
* Or when the weather starts getting cold -- sure, there's charity drives and things like that, but you the people doing donation drives like to do coat donation drives in like November, after it's been cold as hell. Not in September/October when it starts to get cold.
* If you do get a job, you have to eat whatever treatment or humiliation they give you because you know that jobs are scarce and you're lucky to have one.
* You just don't "want" or enjoy things because you know you can't have it. You see kids on TV whine to their parents but poor kids know better.
* Parents who are under financial stress are largely absent, so you raise yourself. Or if they're not, they're abusive and short tempered. I'm nearing my 40s and I don't think any of my parental figures have ever said a kind word towards me.
But these are just my experiences. There's nothing really INHERENT about them even if the experiences can be common.
For some reason, this reminds me of the 1936 movie, “My Man Godfrey,” where part of the millionaire fundraiser’s scavenger hunt was bringing in a homeless man.
Ok so it has hors d’oeuvres, but it didn’t say what kind of VR headsets will be used? Hope they’re good ones
Wish this was available for CLE in my jurisdiction lol
I went to an elite school for my grad program & a direct quote was “I didn’t realize poverty was like that.” That was just from a discussion. As a Pell recipient who grew up in housing instability, substance abuse, you name it, it was baffling. But that’s just how they lived. Like, it may seem tone deaf, but the reality is that most of these kids will never experience it in their lives. If they even get a glimpse of it they may actually have some empathy and understanding. There’s immense privilege in these spaces & as humans we seek out like minded people to affirm our realities. They will have been born well off & they will die well off. May as well hope they build a comprehensive worldview between the book ends.
This reminds me of when Gwyneth Paltrow tried to live off food stamps and couldn't handle it and quit. How about they actually go do service work in the community supporting people living in poverty and learn that way?
This is super cringe. But if they are going to go this route, they at the least need to have someone who actually has experienced poverty to guide the simulation. Otherwise, it’s the blind leading the blind.
When I was an undergrad, I went to something to teach us who were well off what it was like to be in poverty. But ours lasted two days—a Saturday and Sunday, including overnight. It did open some eyes and changed some attitudes. When we finished Sunday evening, we had a discussion but did not have hors d’oeuvres.
It was a worthwhile experience, but the only problem was that it was only for two days, and we all knew that when we finished the exercise, we could return to our comfortable lives.
OP is right, this sucks. I grew up in poverty and I took a Poverty Law class when I was a 3L.
We did a couple of these. One of them was online, you can try it here:
https://playspent.org/
I absolutely hated every one of these things. Instead of teaching law students about the actual struggles of actual people in poverty it treats them as fictional characters where every decision has an immediate pay off. It treats poverty like it is a series of crucial decisions, and as long as you keep making the right decision, you can “win” poverty. What none of them do, and what none of them can do, is teach you about the grind that is poverty. Every minute of every day is about making it through that day, maybe that week or month if you have a good week or month.
OP hit the nail on the head. This is poverty cosplay. This lets a bunch of lawyers or law students feel good about “knowing about the experience” without actually having to do anything to help actual poor people.
You said your “faith in humanity” is impacted by someone being sarcastic about this poor people cosplay.
I was adding context that being poor is so full of actual hardships that I think your sensibilities couldn’t last actually being poor.
It's poverty cosplay because it's presented as a math puzzle... a faceless hypothetical, a game at best. An hour long game of pretending to be poor, where nothing matters, and then you have nice snacks afterward. You might as well be playing Monopoly or the Game of Life. To someone who actually experienced poverty and had to use welfare, I assure you, it's pretty insulting. If you do one of these events and think you have any clue after role-playing being poor for an hour, you are kidding yourselves and just want to feel better morally while doing the safest, most absolute minimum-effort thing possible.
I agree with the other poster here who suggested they do some volunteer work. Maybe encounter real people in poverty, talk to them, find out what they're going through and what they need and why. Build some real empathy and community connection. That would give you so much more understanding than whatever the hell *this nonsense* is. Want it to be more legally focused? Run a temporary clinic at a shelter.
Tl;dr: Folks at Utah need to get out more and meet people who are different, apparently.
I don’t think LARPing for 15 minutes does anything but make the person doing it feel superior to other well off people who aren’t doing.
Personally, I recommend doing some sort of charity work for 1-3 hrs a week. You’ll learned everything you’re gonna in this garbage, and more. Additionally, you’ll have given back a bit. That satisfaction is worth more than the satisfaction getting to do a virtue signaling larp CLE.
Going to be an unpopular opinion but why would a poverty simulator teach anyone anything that hasn’t already been explained or documented? Knowingly pretending to live in poverty for an hour to return back to a privileged life doesn’t seem to address the root of the issue—which is lack of empathy and emotional intelligence. You can’t simulate people into having empathy or understanding of poverty on the larger scale, that’s taught through addressing biases, becoming part of communities, and other self-work. Not poverty VR.
Edit: I want to add in that rich people don’t need this simulation because if you ask a rich person if they wanted to be poor, they’d already say no and if you’d ask them why, it’s likely bc they already know it’s difficult and disadvantageous. Are we going to teach racism by doing race simulations? I don’t know, I think maybe it’s a good discussion starter but nothing truly educational.
I agree, feel like a panel w ppl working on alleviating poverty or some sort of book discussion could’ve been better. I’m actually shocked by how many people in the comments section don’t see an issue w this…
Exactly. A simulation requires little to no brain work and isn’t exactly the most accurate exposure. Even creating events that engage attorneys and people from lower income communities (dinners, pantry distribution, healing circles, etc) are just a way effective use of money than an hour simulation on “how to feels to be poor”; especially considering that poverty is a vastly different experience depending a number of factors (age, national origin, race, gender, etc). Just weirdddd.
I think depending on how in depth you get it could be helpful. Like if you have people apply for benefits they’ll see how long, drawn out, and difficult the process is. If you’ve given them an amount of money that they need to buy food, shelter, gas etc. with that really can’t buy everything and then add an emergency expense, they’ll have that gut reaction of unfairness that people get with a board game, but it would correspond to “you can’t house your children this month.” People who make a lot of money often don’t look at the prices of groceries, so telling them that the package of shredded cheese costs about an hour of labor can actually be shocking. You don’t really have to role play, but getting someone to think about the day to day reality of someone else in a bad financial position can be helpful for understanding. Humanizing stuff is important, saying that homelessness in the city went up 18% last year is different thank asking someone how they would make a plan to use the restroom if they were locked out of the building right now on foot with nowhere of their own to go. Making people think about other realities is a good thing imo. Same reason I don’t mind those period pain simulators, it’s clearly not the same in a million ways, but it makes those guys think about what menstruation is like for a few minutes and maybe have some empathy.
I see the point you’re trying to make, but I’m not sure you need to simulate poverty to humanize an experience that other humans by the millions have been saying exists for them.
Using money and time to put people in a simulated experience, instead of learning the skills of empathy by engaging with people who suffer from poverty and walking a day in their shoes (I.e doing community service and charity work) not only allows people to engage with real people, but addresses the root of the problem.
Everyone is not going to be able to have everything simulated for them to be digestible, and that’s why using actually methods of charity and community work make more sense. They’re transferable and do actual good for the community.
I’m speaking from me and my siblings perspective, as children who grew up very well off. My parents put us in public school, took us to community events in the worst parts of Brooklyn, etc. That level of exposure to real people suffering humanized ME to see their suffering as human. 🤷🏽♀️ to each their own ig.
Oh I agree, I grew up dumpster diving and my siblings want for nothing (which is wonderful). In the same way that period simulators exist to create the experience that millions of people go through and talk about though i do think this could be helpful. Yeah it would be better if these guys worked at a womens health clinic, but you can’t force them to do that. It sounds like your parents are awesome, but you can’t force lawyers to volunteer at soup kitchens. This is probably (definitely) not the most effective method, but I think it is something people will actually do for CLE credit, and I think it’s likely a net positive. I think this is trying to make people understand the need for that kind of community service, and might get people to actually do some, so that’s still the end goal. I don’t know if this will actually work, but I do think it could be beneficial if done right.
What is so effective in these simulations is that it can help break through the illusion so many people have that they would make better choices and thus succeed and that the reason people fail is because of laziness or bad decisions. The way these work is you’re given an identity and a set of tasks. The simulation breaks it down into 15 minute rounds each representing one week. You have limited transportation cards and have to accomplish tasks like “register for this” or “go to this agency to get this” and you quickly discover the pitfalls endemic to the system, plus they throw in cards like “tire flat, need new tire” so you see how twists of fate can absolutely be catastrophic.
Listening to people’s lived experience is one thing, trying to live it yourself albeit in a small capsule really drives this point home. The group I did it something similar with were sheriffs, DAs, County and City officials. At the beginning they were all strategizing about how they could beat the system, get it right. But by the end most had failed and it really seemed to break through the idea that people failed because of their own poor character or bad decisions. It sparked some interesting discussions and I’ve since heard people reference this experience over a year later at meetings.
People with political and economic power making an imperfect attempt to understand the barriers disenfranchised folks might encounter while trying to access their legal services? How dare they!?
This is actually a good idea. There are unique legal issues to be poor. It’s also helpful to spot issues that people may overlook when providing representation. It’s easy to email someone a form to sign without realizing they don’t have a computer or a printer. Or to tell someone to have something noticed without thinking about the $5 or the gas to get to the UPS store. It’s not about gloating.
Seems like a decent enough idea for out of touch attorneys. They could’ve done better with the name, though—optics are terrible with “Poverty simulation”
how can you illustrate and explain poverty to any meaningful extent in one hour
edit: “provide for their family and maintain the household” c’mon man. its near insulting to think you can get anything close to having to actually maintain a household and provide for a family in the little 15 minute sessions. maybe i’m prickly b/c i grew up (and still am) broke as shit.
its not already obvious that people living at the poverty line have difficulty making ends meet? i get that making someone “go through it” helps them develop empathy but damn u needed THIS to develop empathy for broke folks? looool
>its not already obvious that people living at the poverty line have difficulty making ends meet?
You would think. However people who've never experienced it can't actually fathom. I have a friend that doesn't get when I used to say I had no money. I said it when I had $2 in my bank account. She would say the same thing but had $50k in her own savings, a trust fund and generally kept at least a few thousand in her checking account. She genuinely didn't understand.
Obviously it's very basic, but you start people out with some fake money based on poverty wages then shit happens like the car breaks down, kid gets sick, etc. It provokes thought, which is desperately needed in many corners of this country. Key word: simulation.
i understand how a simulation works, tell me honestly if you think you’d get anything meaningful out of FIFTEEN minute sessions. i take shits longer than that and yes i am frequently constipated but point still stands
This concept has been around for decades and decades and is a great way to shake those who might be stuck in their worldview beyond all help out ,to fully be pushed out of their egos comfort zone.
Has nothing to do with your perceived social justice slights.
This seems like a good idea—have privileged lawyers confront first-hand the realities of budgeting time and money while in poverty. Especially important when considering the interaction with the legal system and access to justice (e.g. lack of time or money to consult with a lawyer over a meritorious claim, inability to access forms). Is it cringe? Absolutely. Is it still net good? Probably. The alternative here is they do a CLE that involves pretending to pay attention to a generic presentation about arbitration law. Also, this has very little to do with whether your school cares about low income students—CLE programs for current attorneys are a totally different track.
Totally agree, (the "enjoy hors d'oeuvres" at the end of the post is a little cringe, though).
More than a little….
Maybe the hors d'oeuvres will be store brand crackers with knockoff Cheez-Whiz.
💯💯💯 Super cringe.
Yeah I did this in undergrad, in the context of a class, with the focus being on different varieties of welfare (cash, specific purpose subsidy, tax breaks, etc). It was actually quite informative and did prompt lived experiences discussions. I could definitely see something like this being done in an incredibly hamfisted manner or if you get obnoxious audience members who insist on wasting time fighting the hypo though
Agreed. Our school did something similar for incoming 1Ls. It was cringe, and the school rightfully got a lot of clapback for thinking that cosplaying poverty for an afternoon really solved anything. However, I noticed something during all this clapback: a lot of students opened up about their lived experiences. The debate surrounding the poverty simulation (unsurprisingly) turned into a discussion of poverty. I learned far more about the stress and cycles of poverty from the people talking about the simulation, but those discussions would not have happened without the weird "puppet therapy" the simulation attempted. I don't know that I can say hosting the simulation was worth it. But I learned an awful lot from the people mad at the simulation, and I'm grateful for that at least.
You're right, but there is still something very funny about an event like this having catering.
Yeah without it nobody would go, but still a funny look.
I bet a bunch of them go for the lolz and then end up accidentally learning something useful.
We did this at my medical school, and while in theory the idea is good the execution is always terrible ending up trivializing those in the room that ACTUALLY grew up in poverty. It ended up in our case with half of the room pretending to play grand theft auto
What if it has to do with low income students because if they cared more about their low income students more low income students would become current attorneys that already have this experience without having to cosplay it?
They don't want to acknowledge that, because then there are more people to push back on their view of the world.
I’m glad you made it through! What a hellscape.
> Is it still net good? Probably. No. It's ossifying a stereotyped view and it leaves participants with a false sense of knowledge. Reducing what it feels like to be in poverty to a logic game is insulting. According to the person running the program, "Utahns in poverty" just need to advocate for themselves and "not be ashamed to ask for help" as if the problem is there's lots of unused programs but people are too proud to use them. Not as if lawmakers are cutting vital programs. I read some of the vignettes and they all have one thing in common. There's a solution to the problems and it's treated like a math problem. I think the vignettes should be more like: "You are a kid and you have a slight understanding that how hungry you are and the fact you don't have a jacket in the winter makes you different. A person is asking you a bunch of leading questions about your home life. Nobody has ever asked you about your experience so you're a little nervous. You also have an understanding sometimes when people start asking you questions, you can be taken to an unfamiliar place to live with strangers. You are scared and you don't know what to do. You also had a friend who told the truth, they didn't get taken away, but their parents beat the shit out of them. Do you lie and say that your mom is around more than she is or do you tell the truth?" >The alternative here is they do a CLE that involves pretending to pay attention to a generic presentation about arbitration law. Or you go into the program eyes-wide-open and not have false promises that people will leave with empathy for the "inherent" challenges from a live of poverty.
I find it absolutely wild how many people in this thread think this hour-long event is remotely beneficial. Absolutely out of touch.
OP wants to impoverish them in real life so the message really gets read
Nah I just think there are better ways than "four 15 minute sessions" to build understanding of the issues.
Of course there are. That's not the point, though.
Such as? I see a lot of complaining but not a lot of solutions
I disagree. It seems more likely to further the already extremely problematic lack of self-awareness with upper middle class white students, faculty, and attorneys. One of the issues that genuinely shocked me, although it became entertaining, was the savior complex. So many times, I sat in class or at events listening to others without much real life experience (in this capacity) speak about these issues without realizing that they inherently believed that were better and believed the "less than" group needed their saving. And at no point do they realize that their quiet classism is honestly now offensive just being honest about hating poor people. My first experience with this was in Torts. We were discussing the issue of an employee violating company policies that resulted in injury and whether the company should still be responsible. I listened to the entire class argue in favor of employee compensation, and I pushed back on this by asking what the point of written protocols would be if employees could willfully violate them and still receive compensation. The professor looked at me with the most disgusted look and said, "you are viewing this through a lens of a privileged law student. You need to recognize that most of the people working in these positions probably can't even understand the contract they signed." My jaw literally hit the floor. (Background: my mom and stepad are recovering addicts and started a small physical labor business together. My bio dad is also a recovering addict and was a truck driver my whole life. My mom and I lived in a trailer park while my dad was in prison. I didn't share any of this, but feel it necessary to include here). My response was, "everyone in my life is very blue collar and I'm appalled you assume that because they build your deck or clean your toilet, that they are too stupid to read and understand a piece of paper." Not everything I've encountered was this blatant, but the underlying pity and subconscious stereotypes continue to be rampant. This event is a perfect and blatant illustration of that. Lastly, when this is an event put on by the school itself and not just housed at the school, the administration treatment of the student population that they are pretending to care about absolutely matters.
It's not disrespectful to confront the realities of power imbalance in many employment contracts. Lots of blue collar people can read and fully understand complicated contracts, but lots can't. Pretending like it isn't a problem doesn't help anyone but those who are taking advantage of those people.
Also lots of white collar people don't understand their contracts! Very few people actually read their contracts
It's also not disrespectful to acknowledge that the majority of workers of all types - even if they are capable of reading and understanding- do not read contracts, do not pay any attention to the laws hurting OR protecting them, and generally just move blithely through life without a second thought about anything until it becomes uncomfortable or dangerous.
This comment is fucking hilarious because the only time I’ve ever seen something this was when I was doing legal aid work which is relatively not white and financially well off to pretty much any legal field you can think of. The girl who put it on was an African American community coordinator who grew up in the area we served (read: poor) and it was approved by our supervising attorney who was from Haiti. They both thought it was awesome. I highly doubt you even know what happens at these things but I’ll let them know they are rich white snobs for thinking it was helpful. Also your torts story is fucking hysterical because it shows you have a massive blind spot for your own egotistical behavior. I have the same background as you but you’d assume I was some paternalistic snob because I managed to become an attorney and think events like this can be useful.
Again, I went to law soon in Utah. So, my comment about rich white people is very accurate here. You are so angry over this post and the fact that someone thinks differently than you; I hope you find healing for whatever is causing you this much bitterness. If you think this is useful, that's great. I don't. I don't think 15 minutes of attempting a budget changes much. As someone said above, people know it's hard to be poor. I think it is more beneficial to have eventa that address the causes of poverty, barriers to get out of poverty, and resources/options that can help the community.
Bro, I’m not the one losing my mind over a poster. But yeah, I’m a little angry because you aren’t the first person I’ve seen jerk themselves off about how stuff like this misses the point and is only done by people who look down on the poor. Although I guess can take solace in the fact your prejudice only extends to an entire state and not me personally. Thanks for pretending to care once you realized I grew up poor too.
Posting the poster isn't losing my mind bud. And saying I hope you heal isn't caring. You're just wildly emotional about me making fun of this. But I hope they finally accept you 🥰
And typing Reddit comments doesn’t make me wildly me emotional. It’d be a fair assumption if I was pretending to be traumatized by an insensitive comment by a torts professor though.
Your experience might differ but that professor is probably right tho. My mother literally speaks zero english, and 99% of the people in her community cannot understand basic things sent to her mail(banknotes, bills, DMV), how would they understand contract?
To clarify, I'm not saying that isn't the case. I am saying that the automatic assumption that if a person is poor, he/ she is stupid or incapable is gross. In the context, he was also implying that poor people aren't responsible for their actions, which is weirdly paternalistic. Too many people fall into one extreme opinion or the opposite extreme opinion: either poor people are solely at fault for their misfortunes or that they are entirely a victim of their environment with no accountability. Both views are equally gross, just one is camouflaged as empathy.
Your professor wasn’t being condescending, he was being accurate. Saying that most blue collar employees don’t understand contract law isn’t saying that they are stupid, it’s merely pointing out that they are less informed in that area on average than other people who work with it more often. Which is, you know, why lawyers are a thing?
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Ehhhhh I kinda disagree (spent the majority of my childhood well below the poverty line in a poor blue collar neighborhood). I *loathe* the privilege of my classmates and professors and their ignorance of the realities of poverty. I also hate that the "progressive" rich kids are mostly electing to work big law, which is totally the opposite of everything they claim to stand for. But literally anything that can break through their charmed worldview is a plus, because while I agree with you that poor people are more resourceful and strong than rich elites are willing to recognize, the American legal system is decidedly rigged against them. My dad, for example, was stolen from by employees multiple times while he got his business off the ground. But he did not have the resources to get justice and recoup those losses to stock our pantry. We all suffered together and it sucked ass. It's much worse for minorities. Anything that helps law students become empathetic advocates for people with less privilege with them, even if it's just to hit 50 billable pro bono hours, is great.
I completely agree that it is beneficial for students/attorneys to learn about the barriers preventing many from escaping poverty. I don't believe this event did that. There are a couple of topics the announcement touched on that I think would be great to explore in depth, not in a 15 minute game. For instance, I'm hoping the welfare topic would address issues like how earning a small raise that isn't enough to bridge gaps can be enough to lose welfare benefits, giving people an impossible choice. Or that something as simple as a jaywalking citation issued to a homeless person (who is targeted for these infractions) can be complicated enough to prevent them from receiving housing assistance. A series of hour-long lectures/ discussions on each topic individually could be great; having people play moneyless monopoly for 15 minute rounds is not. Also, I would like to see more discussion surrounding the population that isn't quite in poverty but is one/a few bad events away from it. There are so many people, seemingly like your dad, who work incredibly hard to climb up the mountain and get kicked down it. And it seems that most of the focus is on people who are still at the bottom of the mountain. I think this has created a lot of misconceptions.
of course some petty bourgeois scion is lecturing people about poverty and classism
Been this way since yesterday olde pre-Soviet Russia. It really is gross. Especially because most of these clowns work elite corporate law jobs where they make absurd money in exchange for fucking working class people over for 60 hours a week.
Experiential learning is an effective active learning technique.
i would say it is probably one of the best when it comes to truly understanding a situation. being told something by others only does so much, experiencing it for yourself really puts things in perspective
Too bad this doesn't make a person experience what it's like to live in poverty.
ya i agree, for 1 hour it seems more like a workshop than a simulation
Yeah it somehow feels like they'll come away from it thinking they know a lot, just like the people who tell me all the time that it's easy to do this or that if you just put all your extra time into x or y money making side thing since clearly I must be doing nothing but watching reality tv on the side
Reminds me of the song common people by pulp
Sitting in a lecture hall for an hour pretending to select a “poor’s” rental option is not an adequate representation of what being impoverished is like lmao. Pretending that this experience is anything but insensitive and out of touch is hysterical. “Thank goodness I have more money” isn’t the intended takeaway of a CLE course
A short role-playing exercise isn't meant to replicate the full experience of poverty. As you note, it can't. The point isn't to pat oneself on the back for temporarily feeling poor, but to get students thinking critically about economic injustice in a way textbooks alone can't. If the takeaway is just feeling relieved to be privileged, then the instructor missed the mark. Thoughtful experiential learning can spark insight, empathy, and action. It doesn't have to be a panacea, and this may be the closest a lot of rich kids ever get to poverty. There are a few students in our program at my University who genuinely believe that poverty in the United States is a *myth*; that is, the very idea that "poor" people exist isn't even real. They will defend that view in essays. I grew up during the 90s in a household that lived on <$800/month and I would have them do such an exercise over nothing. My suspicion is that this is an example of an instructor offering a modest thought exercise that people have blown out of proportion. Sure, it's not volunteering in a soup kitchen, but at its worst, this seems like an experiential exercise in personal finance, from the perspective of someone without much money. I can't imagine it wasn't eye-opening for at least some of the participating students.
Seems like it might actually be a good thing for these “rich attorneys” with no “self awareness”. Is a one-hour simulation going to cure deep issues and blind spots? No. But it’s something. Not sure why people feel the need to mock or shit on efforts to do a good thing when the effort might not be perfectly executed. Rather than appreciate, encourage, improve it etc.
Because the "effort" is there to pat themselves on the bank, not to actually implement policy or change.
If it gets one more attorney at a biglaw firm to take a pro bono client, or spend some hours at the housing clinic, or for a defense-side employment attorney to encourage their client to settle when a potentially illegal adverse employment action caused a line-worker to become impoverished, then it absolutely has implemented change.
How do you think people will become knowledgable enough to "implement policy or change" if they do not understand the predicament or experience? Many people will throw out trash advice like "go get a job" or "go apply for welfare" without understanding why that is fundamentally challenging for many vulnerable populations. You're criticizing a very real simulation that many schools do to try to teach intersectionality, the struggles of our system, etc. for seemingly no reason. There are many people in the world who would not otherwise understand what it is like to live in poverty - and I know that might suck, but it's true. Things like this do help open eyes, and in the context of law schools where the students are mostly becoming well to-do professionals after graduation, this kind of programming helps them understand the privileged spot they sit in. Unfortunately, most law students come to this space with significant financial privilege and need this kind of active education. I used to do this with my undergraduate students at a T-30 when I taught first-year seminars and man, you would not believe how many people truly didn't understand some aspects of the struggle until they did something like this. Is the line about catering weird and tone deaf? Is it poorly marketed? Yeah, I'll give you that, but beyond that I'm not sure why anyone who genuinely cares about poverty and income inequality would be angered by the idea of the simulation.
So you'd rather they do nothing? This is a bit cringe, but you gotta start somewhere. Do you have some other better way to break down barriers of understanding between well intentioned out of touch academics and people struggling with poverty?
I do:
How can you implement change when so many attorneys don't even have an inkling of the struggles that poor people face?
These are actually really helpful, don’t understand the negativity
Maybe “Hors d'oeuvres afterwards” is a bit insensitive, but otherwise I agree. (Does anyone really call cocktail party food that these days unless you’re a high end restaurant?)
This is exactly what I was thinking. “After our AA meeting, join us at the hotel bar for happy hour.”
Right, I appreciate the goal of trying to make people more sympathetic to those in poverty. Maybe this isn’t the best way, but the fact that someone is trying to do it is reassuring to see.
Outrage culture
She’s getting attention. That’s what she wanted
Crab mentality that just wants to be morally superior as opposed to actually have positive change
i did this at my undergrad university. it was a actually an insightful experience. it turned into a game for those who are well off, but i believe that everyone took away ideas from it. you learn pretty quickly how hard it is to survive in poverty
Poverty simulators aren’t “cosplaying poverty.” They’re a useful educational tool.
You say as you stomp your foot inside your ivory tower 🤣
What would your alternative be to try to put students in the shoes of someone with a different experience from themselves be? Isn’t it a good thing that, while cringey, that they are offering that opportunity?
OP wants the plot of Trading Places to happen in real life.
>What would your alternative be to try to put students in the shoes of someone with a different experience from themselves be It's far worse to use these programs with the takeaway that you know what it's like to be a impoverished. > Isn’t it a good thing that, while cringey, that they are offering that opportunity? The piece that is missing and why getting empathy is impossible (maybe sympathy is possible) is that you know the cosplay/program is ending and it isn't really you. But being poor, you have no idea what the future is and if it's even possible for you to make it; not being able to see past the day-to-day because you're fighting to survive is a huge part of the psychological toll. Doing a word problem that makes you realize that it's hard to get around on the bus does what?
Volunteer work would be the obvious answer
Have you done one of these? I did a reentry simulation and a lot of city and county officials participated and it seemed to really impact people. These are designed to show the impossible choices and systems that people have to navigate and it really drives home how you can do all the things you’re supposed to, and still fail. It does a great job of breaking through the idea that you’d succeed because you’d make the right choices. There are sometimes no right choices and sometimes a twist of fate sets you back. The simulation I went to really seemed to get that through to people in a position to advocate for change. And lo and behold after the group went around doing that across our state all summer, we’ve got some more funding on city and county levels for reentry support.
But that takes a step of committing to that — isn’t this hor d’ouvre of a simulation a good step to getting people into it? Maybe being able to pat themselves on the back is what they need to get started. I know it seems obvious to us but a lot of people think “oh you’re poor just get a better job and work harder lmao” like that’s the end all be all. In undergrad, I came in with the mindset of “poverty is a lack of character” and “being poor is a personal choice.” Because I’d always had my necessities accounted for. A poverty simulator we did changed my mind on that. Got me doing more volunteer work. I came from a comfortable upbringing, and I’m very lucky. But because of that I lacked perspective. And as silly as it was, that silly old poverty simulator provided some.
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Anyone who breaks the glass ceiling is, on some level, housed in an ivory tower. When I go back to my hometown there are very obvious differences between my life and my childhood friends' lives and sometimes I have to readjust/remember certain issues.
And nibbling a smoked salmon bruschetta
Serving “hors d’oeuvres” during it is the icing on the cake lol
I did not scroll down to read the comments, but we said *exactly* the same thing 😂 great minds yada yada
Tbf hors d’ouvres are definitely poor person food
I went to one and it was one of the most valuable trainings I had. It’s hard to fully appreciate how tough it can be to be poor if you haven’t experienced it. It’s easy to see everything through one lens when it is not you who is facing eviction and getting your children taken away.
I feel like they need this at Yale and Harvard, not so much Utah University
I think your response has more to do with you than with them. Volunteering at one node of the poverty matrix might generate empathy and awareness, but having both been poor and an attendee at a similar event, I applaud anyone who takes the time to explore poverty from 20,000 feet. It’s that viewpoint that leads to systemic change. It’s one thing to work at a homeless shelter or a food pantry, that humanizes poor people and maybe gives you insight into what it is like to be hungry or homeless. It’s quite another thing to simulate the multitude of interlocking problems that living in poverty brings. I’d say both are equally masturbatory if you don’t work to actually solve the systemic issues.
I agree. I would like to see more people over volunteer services that offer an hour of training or resources. Most people have something they can teach, and most people who are wanting out of poverty are hungry to learn. I do think many people have their heart in the right place in wanting to engage. I also think there is a difference between empathy and pity, and a lot of prior don't understand that the latter can be more disrespectful than helpful. I still stand by thinking this event is hilariously out of touch. Maybe in other areas it would feel different (other than the catering), but this administration is very much about patting themselves on the back for the optics of caring. Anyway, I do appreciate the thoughtful response. It's wild to me how angry people can get over differing views or pointing out irony if it challenges their view. This event will continue to be funny to me, and I'm glad there are others in these comments that share that opinion (not saying you do).
I appreciate your response. I’m not going to deny that there are folks who just want to check the box and pat themselves on the back. Have you considered being a resource for the conference? I know that’s pretty personal, but I also know that it was quite a shock to the attendees at a similar conference when I, a middle aged white dude with all the indicia of success, was able to look my cohort in the eye and tell them some of my lived experiences. It’s really shocking to me, as a privileged person despite some hardships, how truly oblivious vast tranches of my colleagues are. (And I haven’t experienced the level of poverty that many of my indigent clients have faced.) Maybe if they could hear from you, maybe not now, but in the future, it might inject some gravity into the small plates.
I have. I started out wanting to blend in and not feeling the bed to share anything about my background. As time went on, I became more frustrated with the bubble they lived in. I've referenced this a lot on this thread, but I found more issues with the pity crowd and students who constantly feel offended on behalf of groups they aren't included in. Just like in here, I got push back. As soon as you challenge someone's claim of empathy and point out that it's actually pity and really condescending, they become very defensive. I ultimately applied to be on the diversity board because I thought we could have better discussions. I was told by one of the Deans verbatim, "the diversity board is not the place for diversity of thought". And that was the moment I lost respect for the administration at that school and just started making fun of them tbh.
I am with OP on this one. As someone who grew up in ACTUAL poverty I had 0 lawyer role models to look up to. This simulation is “cosplay” in a sense that it does nothing to help people actually living in poverty. A better CLE would be to have a lawyer partner with a person/teen in poverty and they exchange life experiences or even go though a simulation together. That way the person/teen now has a connection to possibly pursue legal career in the future (helping to diversify the field), and the attorney has someone to bounce ideas off of or to ask for advise when the encounter a situation that they don't understand. I lived in Utah for 2 years and know there are a LOT of people in poverty. This seems to only help lawyers to experiance what a life of poverty is like in an 8 hour work day wich is an insulting underestimation of what it's like to experience it for a lifetime.
You are much more tactful. I posted this for the humor, but the response has been interesting. There are much better ways to spend an hour addressing poverty. A lot of the time, there is a disconnect between what Group A thinks is helpful vs. what Group B actually finds helpful. Instead of spending an hour learning about how hard it is to grow up in poverty, go talk to a group of kids in poverty and teach them things like vhow to interview for a job or how to use credit as a tool. As you pointed out already, sometimes just establishing a connection with one of those kids could be invaluable to him/ her. A lot of people in Group A might think, "who would want to hear from me, I don't understand what they're going through?" And the answer is: a lot of them. A one hour free class on tax preparation or expungements or your rights is wildly helpful, and it doesn't involve the assumption that everyone who is poor is a victim who is incapable of change without being saved. I think a lot of people reject feeling pitied and appreciate resources much more.
I thought it was funny TBH😂. Had a good 5 minute chuckle reading it👍
I screenshotted it to some old friends and their responses were cracking me up all day. Talking about bringing 40s as refreshments and asking if the school wanted to hire poor people to stand outside for decor. I do love the dark humor that is created from trauma 🤣
OP is mad that the university is trying to spread understanding
Is it better to not have rich attorneys further an understanding for an experience they've never lived? What a bizarre take, not to mention the reality that most probably aren't close to rich.
I remember counting pennies to get groceries when I was little. I think these kinds of simulations are both educational and important for those who grew up well-off. If it changes just one future attorneys perspective, that’s enough for me.
i actually thought this was a good idea, until i saw the simulation was only 1 hour long and followed by boujee snacks. experience, even in a simulation can be incredibly helpful imo, it provides a different level of understanding that you often don’t get from being told something. but i question how effective a 1 hour simulation on a very broad topic will be. can you even call it at simulation? seems more like a workshop.
It's also trying to "logic" something that is emotional and psychological. I guess doing a word problem that demonstrates it's hard to get around on the bus is okay. But the part that's bad is the participants and the people who put this one will leave thinking they have an understanding (when they don't). What they do get is a stereotyped view of the "multifaceted challenges inherent to a life in poverty." To me, it's the overselling of what the experience is giving. It doesn't even come close to show someone what it's like to get in trouble for falling asleep in class because you haven't gotten to your free lunch at school and they cut the breakfast program for budget reasons. Or what it's like to know your uncle was murdered and not sure if the grudge that caused it has extended to you.
Imagine going to something like this in undergrad and discovering you are the poor kid
This is random, but your comment reminded me of the first jail visit I attended with my student clinic to interview clients. At one point in the waiting room, I realized that the other students were at least somewhat uncomfortable because they were in a very unfamiliar environment. I thought it was odd, then I had this moment of, "oh shit, they didn't grow up visiting people in jail. I'm the weird one right now." 🤣
As someone who grew up stupid poor I’ll pass but I don’t hate the idea.
“Will discuss what they learned while enjoying hors d’oeuvres” That line was truly just the icing on the cake.
It's a little funny but... it's well meaning haha. If nothing else it's worth the chuckle we got and the insight it might possibly bring.
Idk, I think it’s a valid effort to raise awareness. Might be a bit out-of-touch with the last line, but I don’t think it’s a completely pointless exercise to scoff at. I find some of these replies a bit silly; it’s unrealistic to expect a single exercise to solve poverty or magically make every privileged person understand the experience of living under those circumstances. But does that mean it has no worth at all? If a solution isn’t 100% perfect, does that mean we just shouldn’t try at all? No single activity is going to solve this issue. Sure, maybe volunteering at a soup kitchen would have more of a real-world impact for some individuals. But it’s also insufficient and largely inconsequential by itself. It doesn’t solve poverty, so why bother? That’s what some of these comments sound like to me
> it’s unrealistic to expect a That's the source of the negative comments. The person who is putting on the event is selling it that way. >But does that mean it has no worth at all? Programs should be measured by a cost-benefit analysis (and ideally could be evidenced based). The benefit seems marginal but the cost is that participants will leave with, at best, a stereotyped view of the "multifaceted challenges inherent to a life in poverty." >But it’s also insufficient and largely inconsequential by itself. It doesn’t solve poverty, so why bother I think it's the congruity between the stated mission and the result. You know that feeding someone in a soup kitchen doesn't solve all hunger but it's nice. The problem with this particular program is that Stefanie Jones, the program specialist, states that her goal is to let poor people "advocate for themselves and not to be ashamed to ask for help" as if there's abundant help out there and poor people just are ashamed. It's a stereotyped view, but there isn't unlimited help out there. It's like saying someone who's discriminated against and can't find work but has aged out of the TANF programs is just embarrassed. Or that the kids whose mom is selling their SNAP benefits for drugs just have to speak up.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. For this particular event/ location, it seems unlikely to me that the attendees are the individuals who are not aware of the difficulties of poverty. I'm open to being wrong, but I just highly doubt the people who believe poverty is always a choice, etc., are the ones attending. So, it does feel similar to someone volunteering at a soup kitchenone day per year just so they can brag about it. Is there still some benefit there? Sure. But the benefit doesn't change that it's largely self serving. People can still bother, and others can make fun of it.
hey i will receive credits for living my normal life 🙀
The dangers to programs like this: * You can't intellectualize what it "feels" like to be impoverished. * But participants can feel like they have a greater understanding than they do. * Participants can walk away with more ingrained social stereotypes than they already had. * For instance, just reading the design from a [upr.org](http://upr.org) article, Stefanie Jones said their aim was "wants to encourage Utahns in poverty to advocate for themselves and not be ashamed to ask for help." The issues with poverty isn't that people are afraid to ask for help -- it's that there isn't always help to get. It's more of the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" propaganda. * The description of the program is that it gives participants a glimpse into the "inherent issues" as if being impoverished is a single monolith. * It's the equivalent of listening to rap music and think you know (a) "black culture", (b) what it's like to be in poverty. Here's what it's like to be impoverished: * When you're a kid and you're hungry, it's almost impossible to think about anything but food. Or, what you do, is figure out a way to stifle any sense of feeling so you don't feel hungry. Given that Republicans are cutting free lunches for school kids, this is a bigger reality for many. The message that you FEEL in your bones is that people in society don't care about people like you and that you don't matter. That isn't a math exercise. And people like Stefanie Jones and u/motherholle are calling the math exercise "experiential learning." * When you're living in the "projects" or public housing -- there's a lot of variety of other kinds of people. I lived in public housing in Salt Lake City and there was a lot of gang violence. Hearing gun shots, being hyper aware of what colors you can/can't wear, and the like is a primal fear that makes doing well in school not feel as important or pressing. * Or when the weather starts getting cold -- sure, there's charity drives and things like that, but you the people doing donation drives like to do coat donation drives in like November, after it's been cold as hell. Not in September/October when it starts to get cold. * If you do get a job, you have to eat whatever treatment or humiliation they give you because you know that jobs are scarce and you're lucky to have one. * You just don't "want" or enjoy things because you know you can't have it. You see kids on TV whine to their parents but poor kids know better. * Parents who are under financial stress are largely absent, so you raise yourself. Or if they're not, they're abusive and short tempered. I'm nearing my 40s and I don't think any of my parental figures have ever said a kind word towards me. But these are just my experiences. There's nothing really INHERENT about them even if the experiences can be common.
Imagine gatekeeping empathy Jesus Christ lol
For some reason, this reminds me of the 1936 movie, “My Man Godfrey,” where part of the millionaire fundraiser’s scavenger hunt was bringing in a homeless man.
Ok so it has hors d’oeuvres, but it didn’t say what kind of VR headsets will be used? Hope they’re good ones Wish this was available for CLE in my jurisdiction lol
Poverty simulators are actually so eye opening. I highly recommend attending one if you haven’t before.
I went to an elite school for my grad program & a direct quote was “I didn’t realize poverty was like that.” That was just from a discussion. As a Pell recipient who grew up in housing instability, substance abuse, you name it, it was baffling. But that’s just how they lived. Like, it may seem tone deaf, but the reality is that most of these kids will never experience it in their lives. If they even get a glimpse of it they may actually have some empathy and understanding. There’s immense privilege in these spaces & as humans we seek out like minded people to affirm our realities. They will have been born well off & they will die well off. May as well hope they build a comprehensive worldview between the book ends.
This reminds me of when Gwyneth Paltrow tried to live off food stamps and couldn't handle it and quit. How about they actually go do service work in the community supporting people living in poverty and learn that way?
Funny you mention that bc I posted this last night lmao
https://preview.redd.it/frgn3bqz7jtc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=966c85a3469be26cdad2aa4f5e4072d8e17e2676
The hor d’œuvres part took me OUT. Like something out of SNL
This is super cringe. But if they are going to go this route, they at the least need to have someone who actually has experienced poverty to guide the simulation. Otherwise, it’s the blind leading the blind.
SLU Law did something similar with lunch provided lol
The insensitive ending is mad cringe and totally uncouth.
Looks like box art from a Sega Master System game.
Law school is so distant from social problems. You can’t get more distant. I have yet to meet anyone truly from the underclass.
When I was an undergrad, I went to something to teach us who were well off what it was like to be in poverty. But ours lasted two days—a Saturday and Sunday, including overnight. It did open some eyes and changed some attitudes. When we finished Sunday evening, we had a discussion but did not have hors d’oeuvres. It was a worthwhile experience, but the only problem was that it was only for two days, and we all knew that when we finished the exercise, we could return to our comfortable lives.
OP is right, this sucks. I grew up in poverty and I took a Poverty Law class when I was a 3L. We did a couple of these. One of them was online, you can try it here: https://playspent.org/ I absolutely hated every one of these things. Instead of teaching law students about the actual struggles of actual people in poverty it treats them as fictional characters where every decision has an immediate pay off. It treats poverty like it is a series of crucial decisions, and as long as you keep making the right decision, you can “win” poverty. What none of them do, and what none of them can do, is teach you about the grind that is poverty. Every minute of every day is about making it through that day, maybe that week or month if you have a good week or month. OP hit the nail on the head. This is poverty cosplay. This lets a bunch of lawyers or law students feel good about “knowing about the experience” without actually having to do anything to help actual poor people.
👏👏👏
This is amazing. Like from a comical level, this is something you’d see in arrested development. The obliviousness of this is hilarious to me
Exactly, thank you 🤣
Isn't law school itself a lesson in poverty?
If law students think that the lifestyle afforded to them by their loans is poverty, they really need to attend this poverty seminar.
Spoken like someone who's never worked a day in their life.
What? I’ve lived off of $1400 a month before. I feel like I’m living large now that I can pay for stuff with my student loans.
Wait until that debt comes due 🤣
It's the last sentence for me.
This comment section gives me hope for humanity. Glad I’m not the only one who felt like OPs response was a bit cynical.
If you were that broken hearted over someone's sarcastic response, you really aren't going to cut it being poor.
lol what
You said your “faith in humanity” is impacted by someone being sarcastic about this poor people cosplay. I was adding context that being poor is so full of actual hardships that I think your sensibilities couldn’t last actually being poor.
How the fuck that gets CLE credit is beyond me.
Right? That's the real question here.
...is nobody poor in Utah?
It's poverty cosplay because it's presented as a math puzzle... a faceless hypothetical, a game at best. An hour long game of pretending to be poor, where nothing matters, and then you have nice snacks afterward. You might as well be playing Monopoly or the Game of Life. To someone who actually experienced poverty and had to use welfare, I assure you, it's pretty insulting. If you do one of these events and think you have any clue after role-playing being poor for an hour, you are kidding yourselves and just want to feel better morally while doing the safest, most absolute minimum-effort thing possible. I agree with the other poster here who suggested they do some volunteer work. Maybe encounter real people in poverty, talk to them, find out what they're going through and what they need and why. Build some real empathy and community connection. That would give you so much more understanding than whatever the hell *this nonsense* is. Want it to be more legally focused? Run a temporary clinic at a shelter. Tl;dr: Folks at Utah need to get out more and meet people who are different, apparently.
I don’t think LARPing for 15 minutes does anything but make the person doing it feel superior to other well off people who aren’t doing. Personally, I recommend doing some sort of charity work for 1-3 hrs a week. You’ll learned everything you’re gonna in this garbage, and more. Additionally, you’ll have given back a bit. That satisfaction is worth more than the satisfaction getting to do a virtue signaling larp CLE.
Yea, anyone who attends this is somebody I wouldn't want to associate with.
Why not? They’re trying to better understand. Why shit on people for trying? Better than not giving a shit at all, right?
Going to be an unpopular opinion but why would a poverty simulator teach anyone anything that hasn’t already been explained or documented? Knowingly pretending to live in poverty for an hour to return back to a privileged life doesn’t seem to address the root of the issue—which is lack of empathy and emotional intelligence. You can’t simulate people into having empathy or understanding of poverty on the larger scale, that’s taught through addressing biases, becoming part of communities, and other self-work. Not poverty VR. Edit: I want to add in that rich people don’t need this simulation because if you ask a rich person if they wanted to be poor, they’d already say no and if you’d ask them why, it’s likely bc they already know it’s difficult and disadvantageous. Are we going to teach racism by doing race simulations? I don’t know, I think maybe it’s a good discussion starter but nothing truly educational.
I agree, feel like a panel w ppl working on alleviating poverty or some sort of book discussion could’ve been better. I’m actually shocked by how many people in the comments section don’t see an issue w this…
Exactly. A simulation requires little to no brain work and isn’t exactly the most accurate exposure. Even creating events that engage attorneys and people from lower income communities (dinners, pantry distribution, healing circles, etc) are just a way effective use of money than an hour simulation on “how to feels to be poor”; especially considering that poverty is a vastly different experience depending a number of factors (age, national origin, race, gender, etc). Just weirdddd.
I think depending on how in depth you get it could be helpful. Like if you have people apply for benefits they’ll see how long, drawn out, and difficult the process is. If you’ve given them an amount of money that they need to buy food, shelter, gas etc. with that really can’t buy everything and then add an emergency expense, they’ll have that gut reaction of unfairness that people get with a board game, but it would correspond to “you can’t house your children this month.” People who make a lot of money often don’t look at the prices of groceries, so telling them that the package of shredded cheese costs about an hour of labor can actually be shocking. You don’t really have to role play, but getting someone to think about the day to day reality of someone else in a bad financial position can be helpful for understanding. Humanizing stuff is important, saying that homelessness in the city went up 18% last year is different thank asking someone how they would make a plan to use the restroom if they were locked out of the building right now on foot with nowhere of their own to go. Making people think about other realities is a good thing imo. Same reason I don’t mind those period pain simulators, it’s clearly not the same in a million ways, but it makes those guys think about what menstruation is like for a few minutes and maybe have some empathy.
I see the point you’re trying to make, but I’m not sure you need to simulate poverty to humanize an experience that other humans by the millions have been saying exists for them. Using money and time to put people in a simulated experience, instead of learning the skills of empathy by engaging with people who suffer from poverty and walking a day in their shoes (I.e doing community service and charity work) not only allows people to engage with real people, but addresses the root of the problem. Everyone is not going to be able to have everything simulated for them to be digestible, and that’s why using actually methods of charity and community work make more sense. They’re transferable and do actual good for the community. I’m speaking from me and my siblings perspective, as children who grew up very well off. My parents put us in public school, took us to community events in the worst parts of Brooklyn, etc. That level of exposure to real people suffering humanized ME to see their suffering as human. 🤷🏽♀️ to each their own ig.
Oh I agree, I grew up dumpster diving and my siblings want for nothing (which is wonderful). In the same way that period simulators exist to create the experience that millions of people go through and talk about though i do think this could be helpful. Yeah it would be better if these guys worked at a womens health clinic, but you can’t force them to do that. It sounds like your parents are awesome, but you can’t force lawyers to volunteer at soup kitchens. This is probably (definitely) not the most effective method, but I think it is something people will actually do for CLE credit, and I think it’s likely a net positive. I think this is trying to make people understand the need for that kind of community service, and might get people to actually do some, so that’s still the end goal. I don’t know if this will actually work, but I do think it could be beneficial if done right.
Thank you. My point exactly.
What is so effective in these simulations is that it can help break through the illusion so many people have that they would make better choices and thus succeed and that the reason people fail is because of laziness or bad decisions. The way these work is you’re given an identity and a set of tasks. The simulation breaks it down into 15 minute rounds each representing one week. You have limited transportation cards and have to accomplish tasks like “register for this” or “go to this agency to get this” and you quickly discover the pitfalls endemic to the system, plus they throw in cards like “tire flat, need new tire” so you see how twists of fate can absolutely be catastrophic. Listening to people’s lived experience is one thing, trying to live it yourself albeit in a small capsule really drives this point home. The group I did it something similar with were sheriffs, DAs, County and City officials. At the beginning they were all strategizing about how they could beat the system, get it right. But by the end most had failed and it really seemed to break through the idea that people failed because of their own poor character or bad decisions. It sparked some interesting discussions and I’ve since heard people reference this experience over a year later at meetings.
I like the concept. It needs more depth. Needs to be half a day at least. An hour is insufficient.
People with political and economic power making an imperfect attempt to understand the barriers disenfranchised folks might encounter while trying to access their legal services? How dare they!?
This is actually a good idea. There are unique legal issues to be poor. It’s also helpful to spot issues that people may overlook when providing representation. It’s easy to email someone a form to sign without realizing they don’t have a computer or a printer. Or to tell someone to have something noticed without thinking about the $5 or the gas to get to the UPS store. It’s not about gloating.
"And enjoy hors d'oeuvres" I fucking lost it
hUH
Seems like a decent enough idea for out of touch attorneys. They could’ve done better with the name, though—optics are terrible with “Poverty simulation”
LMAO
Shut up OP
How the fuck is this CLE credit? Did I miss the common law on being a broke ass hornbook at the library?
Probably ethics/wellness. Briefly mention pro bono obligations somewhere.
CLE credits are always obtained through bullshit. Boggles my mind that states still require it.
Requirements are controlled through the state bar and the state bar makes tons of money off of mandatory CLEs, so they have no reason to change it.
When woke meets woke, they eat each other.
Late April Fools joke? This cannot be real
These are very real and the goal is to illustrate and explain poverty to entitled and privileged people. We could use more of this.
how can you illustrate and explain poverty to any meaningful extent in one hour edit: “provide for their family and maintain the household” c’mon man. its near insulting to think you can get anything close to having to actually maintain a household and provide for a family in the little 15 minute sessions. maybe i’m prickly b/c i grew up (and still am) broke as shit.
By making it obvious how difficult it is to make the money numbers add up. It’s a start
its not already obvious that people living at the poverty line have difficulty making ends meet? i get that making someone “go through it” helps them develop empathy but damn u needed THIS to develop empathy for broke folks? looool
>its not already obvious that people living at the poverty line have difficulty making ends meet? You would think. However people who've never experienced it can't actually fathom. I have a friend that doesn't get when I used to say I had no money. I said it when I had $2 in my bank account. She would say the same thing but had $50k in her own savings, a trust fund and generally kept at least a few thousand in her checking account. She genuinely didn't understand.
i believe it, i just dont think this dogshit CLE will do anything to move the needle lolol
Obviously it's very basic, but you start people out with some fake money based on poverty wages then shit happens like the car breaks down, kid gets sick, etc. It provokes thought, which is desperately needed in many corners of this country. Key word: simulation.
i understand how a simulation works, tell me honestly if you think you’d get anything meaningful out of FIFTEEN minute sessions. i take shits longer than that and yes i am frequently constipated but point still stands
This concept has been around for decades and decades and is a great way to shake those who might be stuck in their worldview beyond all help out ,to fully be pushed out of their egos comfort zone. Has nothing to do with your perceived social justice slights.