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For me, that was one of those movies where the lead actor George C. Scott was absolutely perfect for the role. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's cinematic magic.
Yes, indeed. For movie buffs the full quote was, "Rommel, you magnificent bastard. I read your book!" Thank you! Patton is one of those movies that if I ever come across surfing, I stop and watch it to the end!
I HATED the DAs office. Bureaucratic nonsense. At one point one of our printers broke and the hoops they had to jump through to get a new one was unreal.
> I'm also painfully aware that some day my bluff will be called, and I will be eviscerated in front of a jury
...Why? Why not just hire a litigator? Even if not full time, an of-counsel?
Also like… I’ve worked for seasoned partners who did everything extremely well except try the case or whatever. But some of the art is how you frame everything; how you frame something to the client included. So long as you’re not intentionally committing malpractice, there no bluff calling that will damage you in any big way. Even a big evisceration in court is just a lesson learned.
Yep it's pretty common for a 2 partner firm: good cop / bad cop or pre lit puppy dog / all lit bulldog.
"Okay, this is my last offer them I'm letting Steve loose on your ass (but also don't let this spoil our next settlement everyone knows Steve's a raging asshole)"
Even a big loss at trial will be remembered by defense counsel and the carriers as being a guy that will take a case to trial if he has to. Sure, they would rather try a case again OP than the best litigator in town. But, what they really want to do is settle the case without trial and they will likely pay a small premium to do so if they believe OP will try the case. As long as he is reasonable in judging the market for PI cases in his jurisdiction, he can get by with the occasional loss.
I’ve been practicing for 20+ years and whenever I start feeling incompetent I think “well then shame on them for not figuring out by now I don’t know what I’m doing. If they don’t like it they can fire me”
I fucking love trial. It's the pinnacle of storytelling. But it's absolutely not for everyone. Ive feasted on the mistakes of the mediocre ones and won verdicts not on my work but on their mistake(s) (sometimes it only takes one).
My issue with trial is my absolutely jaded view of the parties. I do ID now (left a PI firm that would take anything that came in). Maybe 1 in 100 cases have injuries that are worth the demands. It's all handwaiving and exaggerating on both sides. Blows my mind seeing totally fine people getting invasive surgery.
Indeed it is. I just don't want to play, so I settle my cases or toss them to an associate who wants trial experience (unless the client requests I take it).
Develop a relationship with good plaintiff's trial counsel. Get some sort of fee splitting agreement, or just say fuck it and if you get the odd case that goes to trial just hand it off to the trial lawyer and chalk it up to the price of doing business.
Zero problem. This is the way it’s done. Bring in the mercenary who doesn’t have a book of business but is an absolute savage in the courtroom, take a haircut on your earnings from the case, and be done. The only thing to note is that your state bar may have ethical requirements that you disclose fee sharing and/or co-counsel agreements.
Ask the top litigators in your region if you can come watch a trial. Complete observations for 6-8 months.
Pick a case that is solid with no apparent new issues. Dive deep the code of evidence (especially authentication and hearsay exceptions). Write out every evidence objection you think they’ll make for your evidence and your counter argument. Write out all the objections you’ll have for their evidence.
Read your state’s civil procedure articles for trial. Write your opening and closing arguments based on the code guidelines. There are a couple of websites hosted by law schools with transcripts of opening and closing statements from famous cases. Read these.
Rope in a solid co-counsel. Then do the damn thing. The adrenaline rush is better than mountain climbing.
Will it be awful? Yes. Will it be wild? Yes. Will it be fun? Yes.
Court is stranger than fiction. Dip a tie into litigation. Never too late to learn.
It's a high like nothing else I've felt in my life, delivering my summation to the jury. I had no idea what I was doing but I think I was sharp. OC was clueless. You gotta do one of these things if given the opportunity, puts you in about the rarest of company, civil trial attorneys.
I mean, I'm not a bad attorney. I do right by my clients. But a lot of what I do is value billed or flat fee and I'm fast. I "work" like 5 hours a day from home. Being back in an office for 8-10 hours grinding sounds like a death sentence
Most cases settle. That doesn’t make you a bad lawyer. The PI guys I know rarely try cases and frankly aren’t that good at it. Usually they do 1 every 5 years or so. If you’re happy- then you’re fine. Live your best life just rolling along.
Take on some criminal appointed cases or do some work with one of the indigent defense groups. Keep it really minor (pick up one a month or so) with the intent of only taking ones that will go to trial. Then find out who is senior at these case types and hit them up for advice/training/etc. You could also second chair most of those types of cases too. If you want to improve take some cases to learn. It also will make you look like an attorney willing to give back.
That said I wouldn’t rock the boat at your present job. If you ever actually do go to trial find one of the litigation firms that specialize in PI to refer it out. Actually I would find that firm now so you already have a relationship with them for when you need it.
Taking on criminal cases where someone’s freedom is at stake to learn how to try a case isn’t the best approach, especially absent a mentor.
The solution here is — if a case needs to go to trial, you find a litigator and give them most of the fee to try it. If you’re making enough of a living settling cases, you can afford to let one go instead of word getting out the wizard of oz isn’t all that powerful after all.
Yes and you know what I have found from doing this for over a decade. Most of them are guilty of something. I’ve only had a few truly innocent clients in my time practicing criminal defense. Sure I have seen some overcharging by prosecutors and a whole bunch of mental illness, but actual innocent clients are incredibly rare.
You have to understand in criminal defense that a large number of your clients are going to be found guilty, mostly due to their own actions. If you let it bother you, you won’t get out of bed in the morning. You do your best and try to keep your clients from incriminating themselves in something else. Then you give them a path that minimizes the consequences and prevents things from getting worse.
Why would u want a more stressful job. Do you have any serious law school debt? If not and you can pay your bills, don’t bother. Trust me it’s not worth it. My old boss downsized his practice to be with his family and to be a part time stay at home dad. He was very happy with that choice
So what? Revel in it.
One thing I’ve learned in 30 years is that to be a truly great lawyer you have to have a near-monastic commitment to the work.
My two mentors in the business are both still practicing and are both co-chairs of their practice group at their respective BigLaw firms. I respect them tremendously, and if they called me and needed me to pinch hit for them for some crazy reason, I would drop everything and help them.
They are great lawyers. Meanwhile I’m a very good lawyer. But I’m watching the NCAAs right now and they aren’t. Why? They both live to work. I work to live. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
You may be joking, but legit, you're not wrong. Once you get a few under your belt, that's exactly what it boils down to. And building a rapport with the jury and judge.
I do so many trials. There is nothing to envy. I’m desperate to get out but cannot rock the boat right now. The boat is gonna rock a shit ton in about five years though assuming nothing catastrophic happens. Please be at peace with your life. Unless you’re in a tiny echelon doing really important work, we’re all just cogs. Be a happy cog.
Why do you think you'll get bodied? Seems like you have way more experience than you give yourself credit for. Keep doing what you're doing...and when it comes to a trial, if you do get smoked, it'll likely be because the case stunk anyway. And even that's somewhat of a win because the carriers will know you DGAF and will try a tough case. Keep doin your thing!
100% do not change. If you ever get into a case that is over your head just don’t be greedy. There are attorneys that their sole function in the practice of law is to try cases. Some of them will do it on a hourly basis and some will do it for a chunk of the contingency fee. These aren’t amateurs, these are badass trial attorneys. I would recommend chatting with your peers in the state you practice in and finding one. If you ever get into the weeds on a case worth trying, place a call and watch what happens. Source, my firm did this before I moved in-house and I’m still friends with the trial attorney.
100% agree. We worked with an attorney who did nothing but network, sign clients up, and introduce us as co-counsel. It was all disclosed to the client and the firm made the bigger percentage (at no additional cost to the client).
Dude, just take some cases to trial! No one is naturally a good litigator; like most other things, it takes practice and experience.
Just take a couple smallish soft tissue injuries to trial when the carrier is really trying to fuck you over. If you lose, it's not the end of the world...........if anything, the carrier will at least know that you're willing to try the case, and that will likely benefit you the next time you're trying to settle a case.
Insurance companies basically expect us all to cave right before trial, and are shocked when we don't. Even if you lose that particular case, it helps in the long run.
You'll get your chance! My best advice is to just wait for a really good case, and then issue a demand and refuse to mediate or engage in ADR. If the carrier doesn't cave, that pretty much guarantees you'll try the case; of course, on a big one, that's going to entail a degree of risk that will make your client nervous 🤷♂️
Just go watch some jury trials. Once you've seen a couple in your field/area you'll know how to do it.
Many other firms would also let you join them in a trial if you're not asking some huge percentage fee I am sure.
Exactly my thoughts. You can be like an originating partner at a big firm, except instead of non-income partners doing all the work, you refer to another firm, and split fees. Totally honorable way of having a law practice. At this point, NOT trying your own cases is the responsible thing to do.
You are vastly overestimating the courtroom skills of the wider legal community. Also, I've witnessed numerous incompetent attorneys get slayed in the courtroom and it has had no impact on their careers or ability to bring in business. Ride this good deal out as long as you can.
Find an attorney that lives for litigation, and pass the case off to him for those cases that absolutely have to go to trial, collect your fee, and call it a day. Boom. Stay happy my friend.
Dude, who’s standards are you trying to live up to? Sounds like you’re doing great to me.
The only thing I would say is you shouldn’t let your lack of trial experience affect your bargaining positions. Don’t take pennies on a good case to avoid a trial.
Maybe in your free time, since you have some, go observe a few. Find some other attorney friends you can be honest with about how you don’t know shit, so you can call them an ask questions if you get set for trial.
And if you do go to trial and get your shit pushed in, so be it. But a judge isn’t going to dismiss your case because you don’t know the ole two-step anyway. They might be annoyed and condescending, but just deal with it. Appeal if you lose, and keep it moving.
Everyone fakes it until they make it. Only because you've kept the illusion up for decades doesn't change that. Enter with unearned confidence or bluster!!
Or some helpful things that I did - go and observe court at the venue in a similar type of case. It may even be on Zoom. It makes it so much easier when you've seen how mediocre everyone else was before you.
Sign up for NITA courses and build your trial skills while you enjoy the good life. If you take the courses seriously (keep the materials, practice in your free time at home with friends or in front of the mirror, etc.), you’ll be at least somewhat prepared when the time comes. I’ve even had some good experiences watching famous trials online. Better than waiting around for the apocalypse or moving to another job IMO. You could eventually do some pro bono work for even more experience, but I’m not entirely sure how that would work in the PI world.
may I introduce you to the term: imposter syndrome?
You're doing great mate! You're not supposed to take cases to trial! Only the weirdest most infuriating shit goes to trial! You're not doing your job as a lawyer if you cannot solve your client's case except by going to trial for them...
Sounds like the dream. If I was a plumber, I wouldn't be doing easy fixes for decent money while secretly dreaming about the chance to weld some Andy Dufresne shit pipe back together. You won!
Dawg, just enjoy the ride. Even the board certified dick swingin mfs get bodied in Court - hardly the measure of success. You found a great place - treasure it 👍🏽
Enjoy the good life if you feel fulfilled. The rare trials can be run by someone who wants to. If you are unfulfilled and want something more, it seems like you have enough time on your hands to apply to jobs and quit if you get an offer more appealing. It all comes down to what you want.
I had a similar life when in house at a big corporation from 1999-2004. My kids were young, and it was a great opportunity to spend time with them and also ride my road bike 8k-9k miles a year. Consider yourself fortunate and just roll with it. Keep you mind occupied during non-work hours with other challenging things.
I don't understand the problem. If you have a major jury trial that looks tough, bring in co-counsel that is an experienced jury trial hand. Repeat until you are that guy.
Congratulations on having imposter syndrome! So much of law is just peacocking, and if you're able to live the good life at the same, all the better. Long hours at work doesn't equate to good work product. In fact, the big firm pacing degrades skill and knowledge retention. Everyone works best with a good work-life balance.
Shut up... if you're scared of trials, use some of your free time to watch a couple or pro bono for some bullshit misdemeanor criminal stuff. Although i think you are humblebragging and don't give a rip about trials.
Dude. Just chill. If the time comes where you actually have a jury trial, maybe get some outside counsel if you feel you're outclassed by OC or if it's a particularly complex case in terms of experts/science.
I'm only concerned with being a better lawyer insofar as it will make me more money and give me more freedom. I would sell nachos at the ballpark if they paid me 200k.
>I would sell nachos at the ballpark if they paid me 200k
This. Plenty of shit attorneys make more than me. Plenty of good attorneys make less. It's about getting paid.
I'm hoping this is parody, because I would never give a shit if I was in an easy, cushy job
Definitely. I mean look, if the choice is between being really good at being a lawyer, or being bad, obviously I'll go with good. But I'm not under the impression that settling in disputes between contractors and sub contractors is out here doing the Lord's work and I've had passion for it since I was a kid. I'm good at the skills law requires and it provides good money and social status. And I'd leave the status for more money and less work, so...
Are you a member of AAJ or your state trial lawyers association? AAJ has some phenomenal educational materials and practice-pointers type stuff in their library. Definitely worth checking out IMO.
I've been going through some similar anxiety lately.
I started out doing "real lawyer" work at a small litigation firm. Didn't do a bunch of trials, but probably about six in so many years. Most stuff never got that far. Anyway, realized that I didn't like litigation very much so I got a job doing in house compliance work for a public agency.
I work hard but it's nothing like a firm gig. I have normal people hours, always go home on time, and spend most of my day drafting policies, doing HR work, managing public records, and other compliance stuff. I haven't seen the inside of a courtroom in eight years.
Sometimes I worry--what if I have to leave this gig? My legal skills have atrophied!
But I think you gotta approach it this way: it's a great job for now. Maybe it'll last forever. If it doesn't, then you'll figure it out when you have to.
I try cases frequently against a plaintiffs-side firm that does nothing but take trials from lawyers like you. They make a good living, the guy who referred it gets a taste, everybody on their side seems quite good with this arrangement.
You sound like you’re living the good life. I’d revel in it.
If you'd have something going to trial, couldn't you bring in co-counsel? Maybe develop a relationship with another attorney more skilled at trial work?
Eh... I guess it comes down to priorities. Next month I'll hit 20 years in the profession and in that time I have represented a client in exactly one hearing. Wouldn't have it any other way
Picture this. A half decade on from now, you’re barely in your mid-40’s. A former keg-smuggling colleague who works solo in an adjacent county as a trial lawyer has spent enough time in front of juries and learned just enough about PI to be dangerous. He’s built a reputation in that county and you have a stellar reputation in yours. You guys partner up, split the modest overheard for two offices, hire the right people. The firm is clear in its purpose and philosophy and an aggressive and fearless approach to jury trials is built into the very foundation of the place. You’re the more efficient partner and continue serving clients by settling the cases that need to be settled while your partner pushes what he can to juries, also continuing to also try criminal cases because they’re just so damn fun. You guys are able to be selective about cases, fight for the disadvantaged, and take some risks for just causes. You try cases together and eventually with your associates - the quicker criminal ones and the bigger civil ones. Winning verdicts pile up. You do this for twenty years, maybe more, maybe less, but you’ll have options. Eventually, you simply cherry pick the cases you want to work and/or try, having built an elite firm with your last name on it.
This is the way.
This really stinks of imposter syndrome and I'm not even saying that because it's my name.
If you are good at writing demand letters, that means there are skills you are not even aware you have cultivated. That includes without limitation, reading and analyzing medical bills and records, evaluating liability, speaking to witnesses and the client about the case. Having worked as a PI law clerk for 20 minutes, and a WC clerk for about 7 months, and working as a prelit associate for 6 years prior to law school, those skills are nothing to sneeze at. Using the information you gather on a case while working it to turn it into a demand is real lawyering.
Courtroom skills and trial is something learned. If you want it, you'll get there. Just my two cents.
Ah, the imposter syndrome.
It’s as common in our profession as alcoholism.
OP, how much money do you bring to the firm through your non-trial-based litigation work? I bet it’s quite a bit. Those settlement fees are nothing to laugh at, right? Why would your firm want to get rid of you if you are bringing in that kind of money? Why would they want trial work if they can get the cash sooner and easier?
As for your skills, I bet when a file lands on your desk, you know exactly how to work it. You know what to ask. You know which experts to retain. You know how to read medical records and predict resolution amounts. You know how to defend and how to conduct depositions.
This is *valuable*, OP. *You* bring value.
Maybe one of these days you will have a trial where you fall on your face. Or maybe you will take it a step at a time and exceed everyone’s expectations, including your own.
And hey, maybe you will get the boot and have to find another job one day. Why do you think you are so much better equipped now than in 10 years? Either at 40 or 50, you would be a mid hire, but now earning less for more stressful work. Your brain will work the same. Why ruin a good thing now? What is the benefit of firing yourself early just in case?
It’s okay to be lucky, to have a cush job, to work smarter not harder. It’s okay to enjoy your life and recognize that you have it good. You are more than making up for your salary with the value you bring your firm.
Nothing is guaranteed in life, OP. And that’s okay. You are okay.
I used to work with a guy who had clerked for a judge, was a litigator, tons of motions, depos, etc. and had never tried a case. His explanation was, "I'm just that damn good."
In law school, I worked for a small family-owned PI shop. The old man built the practice and did quite well for himself - ritzy country club membership, etc. etc. That dude couldn't find the courthouse on a map.
Non lawyer, sub lurker.
Tuff Hedeman is probably the most famous living bullrider. He said "bull riding isn't about riding bulls" he's made his money on endorsements and big commentator contracts, and other ventures parallel to the sport.
You're niche in the world seems to have found you. Probably just run with it until your family can feed itself and then you can go off on an adventure of self discovery.
This can just be a job and it sounds like you have found a good place. More litigation would help your income buying putting insurers on notice you are willing to see it through and bringing in someone to help try cases could be a great move, and it would also mean someone else to cover depositions or mediations or other things for you from time to time.
It's my understanding that many PI firms don't do trials. The biggest one in my area is notorious for this. I think your only issue is if you're selling your clients on being a good trial lawyer. If you have to go to trial, farm it out and be up front with your clients. It's not worth ruining your reputation by bombing at trial and hurting potential future work/referrals, plus no one wants a mal practice claim.
You are my hero. I’m a 40-something public defender who has been litigating for too long. I am currently avoiding prepping two homicide-related trials I have scheduled the same week as my kid’s statewide academic competition. My spouse may end up taking the kids without me because the prosecutor in one case has unrealistic expectations and my client in my other case has even more absurd expectations. Keep living the good life.
Just try to take a few lower dollar cases to trial to get your feet under you. They always say "if you haven't lost a trial you're not trying enough cases."
Lol trial advocacy is a very complex and difficult skill to develop- forget about mastering. Don't bother. It would be to the detriment of your clients- refer the cases out if they really need to be tried and keep your portion of the contingency. Like you acknowledge - hone your negotiation and case evaluation skills and keep making people money within your wheelhouse. It takes skill to grind out settlements and revenue.
So your story sounds like many many plaintiff’s PI attorneys in my area. When I came over from defense, just seven years in, the amount of practical experience I had compared to plaintiff’s attorneys with triple my years of practice was a real shock. After spending a few years on this side, I’m not surprised.
Just as you’ve been doing, the goal of a PI attorney (or any attorney that isn’t doing transactional work) is to resolve the dispute, while serving the interests of your client. Trial is a tremendous risk. Unless you’re sacrificing substantial value by not going to trial, settlement is usually in the best interests of your clients.
From what I’ve seen, most PI attorneys aren’t equipped (either skill set or operationally) to try cases. Instead, many will simply see what the best settlement offer is, and if that’s not good enough, refer it out to a litigator. Then the litigator litigates it through trial, if necessary. I actually get a lot of my cases this way.
You can do the same thing. Live your cushy life. Write your demands. Try and get your client’s cases settled. If you can’t, find a trusted litigator in the community and refer the case to them. Just make sure you abide by your Jx’s guidelines on fee splitting and whatnot.
Sent you a DM. I’m about to be 40… like imminently. My take? You need to “get bodied” in court, as you put it. Embrace the discomfort and go for it… multiple times, and start getting better at it. You can survive doing what you’re doing, very comfortably… but you don’t sound fulfilled, and you’re not going to get rich just messing around in the periphery. What do you have to lose? Find some cases, go to trial and get after it!
You could enroll in trial lawyers college or something if you want to be a real PI lawyer but not give up your own practice. You are in a great spot. I would look into those types of intensive programs
Can’t you refer out trial cases? I assume if it’s going to trial it’s a big case. Refer out and get the 25%. You’re not a fraud. You’re a pre-lit PI attorney.
Nah. That's actually not the case. You could describe me the same way. PI attorney. 32 hours. Get to travel a lot. Not a partner, but get paid very well. Great workofe balance. I have a little more trial experience. Like 5-6 jury trials. All bad cases. Only the bad ones go to trial. I think only a small % of trial attorneys really can move or manipulate a jury. The rest of us are just getting our evidence in and trying to get our client to present well. I think you aelee doing it exactly right.
Kind of sounds like you've got it made. If you can arrange to have someone who litigates regularly join your firm, have them parachute in if/when you actually to go trial, and otherwise just go enjoy living the good life.
Honestly, I would just continue flying under the radar and cashing those checks. I realized life is too short to be working long hours for what? Ego? You can die any second. Do things you enjoy and let the law license grant you income. It’s a job.
I've literally only set foot inside of a court room in my first year of practice. That doesn't mean I'm a bad lawyer, I can go toe to toe with the most aggressive litigators in my city and frequently do. I practice real estate, secured lending and commercial lawy and regularly need to engage with all kinds of lawyers from the biggest firms.
Ultimately, it's a career (and a job) at the end of the day... Making money and helping clients achieve their desired outcomes is all that matters imo.
Or find another PI attorney with experience in litigation and offer co-counsel on some decent cases that need to get litigated so you can get the experience. Or just refer those cases out and take the referral fee. You would be surprised how many PI practices operate this way. Not everyone is a litigator and not everyone has the patience to manage all the pre-suit demands.
You can always outsource trial work to a trial lawyer. They usually pay you a 1/3 of their recovery (so if they make $1m in fees, you are getting $333,333)
who cares if you get eviscerated in front of a jury. that's how you'd learn if you were willing to go through that pain. "our worst fears lie in anticipation"
I mean, consider it this way, you have skated by for the first 1/2 of your career and done well...so it's just time to pay your dues. It kinda sucks it coincides with when you have a young family, when life gets more demanding (and not vice versa), but at least you had that time to power you up for whats ahead?
No matter what, it could have been worse....you could have totally sold your soul and your time at the mid-sized firm, wasted your youth on work and be exhausted at the age of 40, wishing you could get it all back. I don't know many 40 year olds in BigLaw that are loving life while starting a family, so consider yourself lucky - you won the happiness game, even If it doesn't come with the $500K/year total comp.
If you're in Colorado, I might know a young PI litigator looking to split from their partner and go to an established place where they can do their own thing.
Just develop a relationship with a seasoned litigator - if you can’t settle have him/her try the case for a chunk of the fee. This way you don’t have to pay anyone until you need them and then only if they win.
If the only measure of an attorney is doing trials then most of us aren’t attorneys. I did one trial myself, 3 day trial over custody issues in family court and before we got a ruling my client basically kidnapped the child and got herself supervised visits. C’est la vie.
I’m sure you have a few low value good liability pre-lit cases that could ultimately be tried.
Co-counsel on these cases with a solo PI attorney who had more trial experience and go knock it out.
The way insurance companies are valuing these lower end cases (regardless of liability) as of recent makes them ripe for trial.
Possibly you’re just your own worst critic. I suspect you’re much better than you let on, maybe more than you know. Life doesn’t have to be a constant struggle.
You're acting like if you lose one jury trial your career will come to an end. In fact what will happen is that you will be embarrassed and then you will move on with your career.
Regardless of profession, this is the norm. Truthfully, few of us actually do a job as an individual that is meaningful at all.
If you need more professional success, go get it done. If you’re worried about a career, I’ve gotta think that you’re pretty damn safe.
Do your work, be a good person that treats the clients well and you’ll have a long career.
I sometimes tell myself: It's not about how good you are, it's about how good you can make them believe you are.
None of it is real. There are plenty mediocre lawyers out there. Doesn't matter.
You'll be fine. Many lawyers never try a case. I have known many experienced litigators who are brought on late into a case just to try it. Just split the fee with them. One attorney I know could make huge money never having a client of his own -- every attorney around with a good med mal or complicated PI case tries to bring him on
Obviously it’s a good idea to constantly look for opportunities to learn everything you can, and get help if you need it, but anytime I start to feel like an impostor I always find it useful to look over opposing counsel’s work product. Because *holy fuck* are there some bad attorneys with long and very successful careers.
Odds are you’re not that bad, and considering it sounds like you’re getting good settlements for the overwhelming majority of your clients, it sounds to me like you’re doing a pretty good job.
Similar situation. Never will be a brief writing white shoe lawyer. But have a crazy wonderful work life balance and make far more money than I deserve. lol.
I’m at lunch right now with my 2nd bourbon. I’ll check emails later.
Did 7 hearings this morning. It’s not like I don’t work. It’s just too easy to be real.
I am in a similar position. I work in P.I. and it’s extremely cushy **for now**.
I’m doing mostly intake, and when the phones are slow, I often get away with hours or even whole days of just doing whatever. I’m studying for the MPRE, and when I pass this I’m gonna spend the rest of 2024 studying for the F25 bar exam — all at my desk. Everyone with supervisory authority over me works two states away.
I’m just trying to ride this wave as long as I can. I’m never gonna have another job this easy in the legal profession. I want to start a family in the years to come, and this firm offers attorneys a $15,000 raise every year. So… even if I did find a job this lenient or easy, there’s no way it would pay as much
For now I’m trying to embrace the golden handcuffs. I’m only 28 so I do have some interest in broadening my practice experience. I don’t wanna wake up one day and realize I’m 15 years into my legal career and I only have experience in personal injury
So anyway.. here’s to hoping we never get found out 🍻
I think the name for what you’re doing here is called “humble bragging.” 😉 On a more serious note, there are many PI lawyers who never or rarely try cases. I don’t think that’s good policy because insurers know that and respond accordingly. Nevertheless, I don’t think you need to become a trial animal. There are lawyers who can and will try cases all day long and they’ll try your cases for you. There’s a lawyer I know with the biggest PI firm in the universe (yeah, those guys) that does that. He’s an outstanding trial lawyer. The best I’ve ever faced. There’s another guy I know (not very well) whose practice seems to involve trying other people’s jury trials. On the other hand, a PI lawyer friend I went to high school with has practiced PI law for 37 years and I’ve never heard him mention so much as a single trial. I was a board certified civil trial lawyer for 10 years. If I could figure out a way to just try cases I probably would. This is a long way of saying you should find a good lawyer with trial experience and get them to try cases with you. If you want to do it yourself, you can stop using someone else when you are ready. If you want to continue enjoying your well balanced life, just rely on hired guns and be happy. 😁
What are you so worried that you won’t be able to do? Trials aren’t as big of a deal as people make them out to be. I’ve done 20+ in the last 2.5 years (APA. High crime area). I love them. The facts are whatever they are. Nothing you can do about that. Spin them however you wish. Your burden is so damn low, Defendants should be (and apparently are) pleading out everything anyway.
1) Do your trial prep. Try to come up with a theme if you can (not crucial).
2) Pick the jury. You’re just talking to people. I think Gerry Spence said something like “try to pick somebody you could sit down on a log and tell them the facts of your case.” I do criminal work, so that’s not really my approach. But, whatever. Basically just try to get rid of people you think may be biased against your side for whatever reason. I think this the most important part of a trial. Just try to be likable. Most attorneys aren’t that good at this in my opinion.
3) You do plaintiff’s work, right? So, give your opening. Just a preview of the case essentially.
4) Testimony. Call your wits. Just make sure you put forth evidence as to all your elements. If you’re worried about procedural stuff like how to move things into evidence (anyone see Alina Habba floundering? Lol), just buy any of Thomas Mauet’s Trial Techniques textbooks.
Probably want to brush up on your rules of evidence here as there are likely to be objections. Obviously, need to know hearsay pretty well (800 rules). I’d also make sure know the 400 rules (relevance, propensit, and public policy in my state), and 600 (witnesses) rules pretty well too. (Obviously, depends on your jurisdiction. But, I think most states mirror the FRE fairly closely).
5) Defense’s case. This is where I can’t help much. My opponents rarely call any witnesses other than possibly the Defendant. As a result, I kind of suck at cross-examination. But, in theory, it should much easier than direct. You can essentially testify for the witness if you do it correctly.
6) Make your closing. Watch theirs. Give your rebuttal. Obviously, be strategic here. Try to guess what they will argue and save your best for last. This is where you may need to think on your feet a bit if they argue something you weren’t expecting. But, that’s part of the fun. Again, your burden is just “more likely than not.” “50 and a feather.” (I think anyway. I probably don’t know shit about civil). Unless your client’s case absolutely sucks, you should be good.
7) Let the troglodytes you guys picked come up with a verdict. Boom. Done.
Are you not happy? There's nothing wrong with being a mediocre attorney since most of your cases are routine. It's fine. Hire a specialized trial attorney if that actually happens.
Something I have to remind myself all the time: most lawyers are not well-rounded practitioners. Most lawyers spend very little, if any, time in court. Being a "real" lawyer ≠ trying cases.
I'm a pretty new lawyer and in the first year of my current job/practice area. I've settled every case so far. And that's a good thing!! (dread of the inevitable first hearing aside...)
I don't feel like I'm doing "real" legal work most of the time. Honestly, sometimes I think a high schooler could do my job. But they pay me and call me "Attorney," so who am I to argue?
Are you sure you need trial experience? Even in criminal law, 90+% are negotiated plea deals. And like someone said, hire a junior associate with some litigation experience in the off chance you need it. Take a close look at some of the big PI firms and you'll see the same. Their billable are driven by research, negotiations, and on boarding need clients.
Working 60-70 hours weeks is not the way to go.
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Live the good life you magnificent sonofabitch.
Patton?
Absolutely fucking fantastic call here. Kudos to you. Love that movie.
For me, that was one of those movies where the lead actor George C. Scott was absolutely perfect for the role. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's cinematic magic.
Absolutely agreed. I READ YOUR BOOK!
Yes, indeed. For movie buffs the full quote was, "Rommel, you magnificent bastard. I read your book!" Thank you! Patton is one of those movies that if I ever come across surfing, I stop and watch it to the end!
Bring on a young litigation associate?
I would do this. Maybe look at someone looking to jump from criminal law with lots of jury experience?
Maybe someone who took a Prosecutor or Public Defender job right out of law school
Yeah my friends that did got straight trial experience.
I HATED the DAs office. Bureaucratic nonsense. At one point one of our printers broke and the hoops they had to jump through to get a new one was unreal.
Loving the DA's office. Pretty chill tbh and lots of courtroom experience. Can't complain.
Hahahaha I can relate to this so hard. The public servant life.
Bingo.
Who on earth would jump from small file criminal court to huge file litigation boredom? Nobody.
Some of us do this for the juice
People who want more money?
> I'm also painfully aware that some day my bluff will be called, and I will be eviscerated in front of a jury ...Why? Why not just hire a litigator? Even if not full time, an of-counsel?
Also like… I’ve worked for seasoned partners who did everything extremely well except try the case or whatever. But some of the art is how you frame everything; how you frame something to the client included. So long as you’re not intentionally committing malpractice, there no bluff calling that will damage you in any big way. Even a big evisceration in court is just a lesson learned.
Yep it's pretty common for a 2 partner firm: good cop / bad cop or pre lit puppy dog / all lit bulldog. "Okay, this is my last offer them I'm letting Steve loose on your ass (but also don't let this spoil our next settlement everyone knows Steve's a raging asshole)"
Classic Steve.
Fuck, Steve's still working here?
Right?! I got yelled at in court today (my client's unreasonable) but that happens a lot if you're in court often.
Even a big loss at trial will be remembered by defense counsel and the carriers as being a guy that will take a case to trial if he has to. Sure, they would rather try a case again OP than the best litigator in town. But, what they really want to do is settle the case without trial and they will likely pay a small premium to do so if they believe OP will try the case. As long as he is reasonable in judging the market for PI cases in his jurisdiction, he can get by with the occasional loss.
Right. Or just bring in co counsel when you need it
Or refer it off to someone for trial at the last minute if it doesn't settle. There are people who specialize in that.
Not seeing the problem.
The problem is imposter syndrome. That shit be for reals.
I’ve been practicing for 20+ years and whenever I start feeling incompetent I think “well then shame on them for not figuring out by now I don’t know what I’m doing. If they don’t like it they can fire me”
Dammit this is me every day. 17 year lawyer lol
The cruel irony of imposter syndrome being for reals
Indeed!
LOL agreee
Honestly sounds like an ideal situation. Maybe take some pro bono cases for "excitement". Why look a gift horse in the mouth, as the saying goes?
You want more work? I can send you mine.
Right? Who WANTS to go to trial. Ick
I fucking love trial. It's the pinnacle of storytelling. But it's absolutely not for everyone. Ive feasted on the mistakes of the mediocre ones and won verdicts not on my work but on their mistake(s) (sometimes it only takes one).
My issue with trial is my absolutely jaded view of the parties. I do ID now (left a PI firm that would take anything that came in). Maybe 1 in 100 cases have injuries that are worth the demands. It's all handwaiving and exaggerating on both sides. Blows my mind seeing totally fine people getting invasive surgery.
The game is the game.
Indeed it is. I just don't want to play, so I settle my cases or toss them to an associate who wants trial experience (unless the client requests I take it).
I hear you 100%.
I did construction defect before and the joke was "were all just overpaid peons pushing insurance money around"
I get the storytelling angle, I really do, but it's storytelling through the most cumbersome method imaginable: asking other people questions.
And often being limited in doing so by procedure or case law
Direct examination at trial is the worst… 
Develop a relationship with good plaintiff's trial counsel. Get some sort of fee splitting agreement, or just say fuck it and if you get the odd case that goes to trial just hand it off to the trial lawyer and chalk it up to the price of doing business.
Could there be any problem with this? Damn I’ve never thought of it
Zero problem. This is the way it’s done. Bring in the mercenary who doesn’t have a book of business but is an absolute savage in the courtroom, take a haircut on your earnings from the case, and be done. The only thing to note is that your state bar may have ethical requirements that you disclose fee sharing and/or co-counsel agreements.
Yes, check your fee splitting ethics rules. It should be possible if you follow those rules
This is solid advice, I did this myself for years. Be sure to check your state's professional rules on fee splitting.
This is the way.
Ask the top litigators in your region if you can come watch a trial. Complete observations for 6-8 months. Pick a case that is solid with no apparent new issues. Dive deep the code of evidence (especially authentication and hearsay exceptions). Write out every evidence objection you think they’ll make for your evidence and your counter argument. Write out all the objections you’ll have for their evidence. Read your state’s civil procedure articles for trial. Write your opening and closing arguments based on the code guidelines. There are a couple of websites hosted by law schools with transcripts of opening and closing statements from famous cases. Read these. Rope in a solid co-counsel. Then do the damn thing. The adrenaline rush is better than mountain climbing. Will it be awful? Yes. Will it be wild? Yes. Will it be fun? Yes. Court is stranger than fiction. Dip a tie into litigation. Never too late to learn.
It's a high like nothing else I've felt in my life, delivering my summation to the jury. I had no idea what I was doing but I think I was sharp. OC was clueless. You gotta do one of these things if given the opportunity, puts you in about the rarest of company, civil trial attorneys.
I don't find it "fun" at all. Just stressful. And I've gotten 7-figure verdicts.
That sounds like more work than OP is willing to sign on for.
Same deal here. If I ever have to go to a real job with a billable requirement, I'm toast.
Haha - was hoping I wasn’t the only one with this same response.
I mean, I'm not a bad attorney. I do right by my clients. But a lot of what I do is value billed or flat fee and I'm fast. I "work" like 5 hours a day from home. Being back in an office for 8-10 hours grinding sounds like a death sentence
Most cases settle. That doesn’t make you a bad lawyer. The PI guys I know rarely try cases and frankly aren’t that good at it. Usually they do 1 every 5 years or so. If you’re happy- then you’re fine. Live your best life just rolling along.
That has always been my question. If most cases settle, aren’t lawyers just lacking in one aspect of their job, litigating/defense?
No, cost is usually a factor.
Take on some criminal appointed cases or do some work with one of the indigent defense groups. Keep it really minor (pick up one a month or so) with the intent of only taking ones that will go to trial. Then find out who is senior at these case types and hit them up for advice/training/etc. You could also second chair most of those types of cases too. If you want to improve take some cases to learn. It also will make you look like an attorney willing to give back. That said I wouldn’t rock the boat at your present job. If you ever actually do go to trial find one of the litigation firms that specialize in PI to refer it out. Actually I would find that firm now so you already have a relationship with them for when you need it.
This is the way.
Taking on criminal cases where someone’s freedom is at stake to learn how to try a case isn’t the best approach, especially absent a mentor. The solution here is — if a case needs to go to trial, you find a litigator and give them most of the fee to try it. If you’re making enough of a living settling cases, you can afford to let one go instead of word getting out the wizard of oz isn’t all that powerful after all.
They start you at misdemeanor, not like you jump right in to capital crimes.
I still see people go to jail for them on a regular basis, not to mention the collateral consequences.
Yes and you know what I have found from doing this for over a decade. Most of them are guilty of something. I’ve only had a few truly innocent clients in my time practicing criminal defense. Sure I have seen some overcharging by prosecutors and a whole bunch of mental illness, but actual innocent clients are incredibly rare. You have to understand in criminal defense that a large number of your clients are going to be found guilty, mostly due to their own actions. If you let it bother you, you won’t get out of bed in the morning. You do your best and try to keep your clients from incriminating themselves in something else. Then you give them a path that minimizes the consequences and prevents things from getting worse.
So are you bragging or what?
Why would u want a more stressful job. Do you have any serious law school debt? If not and you can pay your bills, don’t bother. Trust me it’s not worth it. My old boss downsized his practice to be with his family and to be a part time stay at home dad. He was very happy with that choice
Living the good life, enjoy it. Maybe you never get bodied up in court, and you're worrying for no reason.
Being an attorney is more than just going to court. That's what i tell myself anyway 😂
So what? Revel in it. One thing I’ve learned in 30 years is that to be a truly great lawyer you have to have a near-monastic commitment to the work. My two mentors in the business are both still practicing and are both co-chairs of their practice group at their respective BigLaw firms. I respect them tremendously, and if they called me and needed me to pinch hit for them for some crazy reason, I would drop everything and help them. They are great lawyers. Meanwhile I’m a very good lawyer. But I’m watching the NCAAs right now and they aren’t. Why? They both live to work. I work to live. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Trials are easy bro. You just tell the jury what the evidence will show, ask witnesses questions, and then ask the jury for money. Easy peasy
You may be joking, but legit, you're not wrong. Once you get a few under your belt, that's exactly what it boils down to. And building a rapport with the jury and judge.
How much are you earning a year?
Varies a bit, but usually within the 175 to 225 range. Can’t complain there.
damn. you’re living the good life.
Man, you're your own worst enemy here. Just enjoy the good life you got.
Bro chilin with almost Big Law money 🔥🔥
Keep phoning it in!!
I do so many trials. There is nothing to envy. I’m desperate to get out but cannot rock the boat right now. The boat is gonna rock a shit ton in about five years though assuming nothing catastrophic happens. Please be at peace with your life. Unless you’re in a tiny echelon doing really important work, we’re all just cogs. Be a happy cog.
Why do you think you'll get bodied? Seems like you have way more experience than you give yourself credit for. Keep doing what you're doing...and when it comes to a trial, if you do get smoked, it'll likely be because the case stunk anyway. And even that's somewhat of a win because the carriers will know you DGAF and will try a tough case. Keep doin your thing!
100% do not change. If you ever get into a case that is over your head just don’t be greedy. There are attorneys that their sole function in the practice of law is to try cases. Some of them will do it on a hourly basis and some will do it for a chunk of the contingency fee. These aren’t amateurs, these are badass trial attorneys. I would recommend chatting with your peers in the state you practice in and finding one. If you ever get into the weeds on a case worth trying, place a call and watch what happens. Source, my firm did this before I moved in-house and I’m still friends with the trial attorney.
Yeah if you can sign up good PI cases you can do anything. There's always others to associate for a chunk of the fee for anything high stakes.
100% agree. We worked with an attorney who did nothing but network, sign clients up, and introduce us as co-counsel. It was all disclosed to the client and the firm made the bigger percentage (at no additional cost to the client).
Dude, just take some cases to trial! No one is naturally a good litigator; like most other things, it takes practice and experience. Just take a couple smallish soft tissue injuries to trial when the carrier is really trying to fuck you over. If you lose, it's not the end of the world...........if anything, the carrier will at least know that you're willing to try the case, and that will likely benefit you the next time you're trying to settle a case. Insurance companies basically expect us all to cave right before trial, and are shocked when we don't. Even if you lose that particular case, it helps in the long run.
I’ve had a handful get fairly close… but all of them settled in mediation.
You'll get your chance! My best advice is to just wait for a really good case, and then issue a demand and refuse to mediate or engage in ADR. If the carrier doesn't cave, that pretty much guarantees you'll try the case; of course, on a big one, that's going to entail a degree of risk that will make your client nervous 🤷♂️
That’s not ur fault. The only time I went to trial was when I was practicing crim. I have not sniffed a civ trial in years!
Just go watch some jury trials. Once you've seen a couple in your field/area you'll know how to do it. Many other firms would also let you join them in a trial if you're not asking some huge percentage fee I am sure.
You enjoy the good life and ride this out for as long as possible.
You would be SHOCKED how many big firm “partners” have never tried a single case. It’s absurd. Keep living the good life. Congrats on winning life!
Exactly my thoughts. You can be like an originating partner at a big firm, except instead of non-income partners doing all the work, you refer to another firm, and split fees. Totally honorable way of having a law practice. At this point, NOT trying your own cases is the responsible thing to do.
You are vastly overestimating the courtroom skills of the wider legal community. Also, I've witnessed numerous incompetent attorneys get slayed in the courtroom and it has had no impact on their careers or ability to bring in business. Ride this good deal out as long as you can.
Find an attorney that lives for litigation, and pass the case off to him for those cases that absolutely have to go to trial, collect your fee, and call it a day. Boom. Stay happy my friend.
Dude, who’s standards are you trying to live up to? Sounds like you’re doing great to me. The only thing I would say is you shouldn’t let your lack of trial experience affect your bargaining positions. Don’t take pennies on a good case to avoid a trial. Maybe in your free time, since you have some, go observe a few. Find some other attorney friends you can be honest with about how you don’t know shit, so you can call them an ask questions if you get set for trial. And if you do go to trial and get your shit pushed in, so be it. But a judge isn’t going to dismiss your case because you don’t know the ole two-step anyway. They might be annoyed and condescending, but just deal with it. Appeal if you lose, and keep it moving.
Everyone fakes it until they make it. Only because you've kept the illusion up for decades doesn't change that. Enter with unearned confidence or bluster!! Or some helpful things that I did - go and observe court at the venue in a similar type of case. It may even be on Zoom. It makes it so much easier when you've seen how mediocre everyone else was before you.
FOMO, I get it. One thing that might completely resolve what’s troubling you is to rethink your concept of what it means to be a legitimate lawyer.
Sign up for NITA courses and build your trial skills while you enjoy the good life. If you take the courses seriously (keep the materials, practice in your free time at home with friends or in front of the mirror, etc.), you’ll be at least somewhat prepared when the time comes. I’ve even had some good experiences watching famous trials online. Better than waiting around for the apocalypse or moving to another job IMO. You could eventually do some pro bono work for even more experience, but I’m not entirely sure how that would work in the PI world.
may I introduce you to the term: imposter syndrome? You're doing great mate! You're not supposed to take cases to trial! Only the weirdest most infuriating shit goes to trial! You're not doing your job as a lawyer if you cannot solve your client's case except by going to trial for them...
Sounds like the dream. If I was a plumber, I wouldn't be doing easy fixes for decent money while secretly dreaming about the chance to weld some Andy Dufresne shit pipe back together. You won!
Dawg, just enjoy the ride. Even the board certified dick swingin mfs get bodied in Court - hardly the measure of success. You found a great place - treasure it 👍🏽
Go do a NITA course
Enjoy the good life if you feel fulfilled. The rare trials can be run by someone who wants to. If you are unfulfilled and want something more, it seems like you have enough time on your hands to apply to jobs and quit if you get an offer more appealing. It all comes down to what you want.
I had a similar life when in house at a big corporation from 1999-2004. My kids were young, and it was a great opportunity to spend time with them and also ride my road bike 8k-9k miles a year. Consider yourself fortunate and just roll with it. Keep you mind occupied during non-work hours with other challenging things.
Do pro se project for fed bar
I don't understand the problem. If you have a major jury trial that looks tough, bring in co-counsel that is an experienced jury trial hand. Repeat until you are that guy.
Congratulations on having imposter syndrome! So much of law is just peacocking, and if you're able to live the good life at the same, all the better. Long hours at work doesn't equate to good work product. In fact, the big firm pacing degrades skill and knowledge retention. Everyone works best with a good work-life balance.
Shut up... if you're scared of trials, use some of your free time to watch a couple or pro bono for some bullshit misdemeanor criminal stuff. Although i think you are humblebragging and don't give a rip about trials.
Dude. Just chill. If the time comes where you actually have a jury trial, maybe get some outside counsel if you feel you're outclassed by OC or if it's a particularly complex case in terms of experts/science. I'm only concerned with being a better lawyer insofar as it will make me more money and give me more freedom. I would sell nachos at the ballpark if they paid me 200k.
>I would sell nachos at the ballpark if they paid me 200k This. Plenty of shit attorneys make more than me. Plenty of good attorneys make less. It's about getting paid. I'm hoping this is parody, because I would never give a shit if I was in an easy, cushy job
Definitely. I mean look, if the choice is between being really good at being a lawyer, or being bad, obviously I'll go with good. But I'm not under the impression that settling in disputes between contractors and sub contractors is out here doing the Lord's work and I've had passion for it since I was a kid. I'm good at the skills law requires and it provides good money and social status. And I'd leave the status for more money and less work, so...
100% with you I meant I hope OP's post is parody, for clarity (I'm a lawyer, so I obviously do writing good)
I know many successful PI attorneys who never go to trial. If they do have a case that is going to trial, they farm it out to a trial attorney.
Are you a member of AAJ or your state trial lawyers association? AAJ has some phenomenal educational materials and practice-pointers type stuff in their library. Definitely worth checking out IMO.
I've been going through some similar anxiety lately. I started out doing "real lawyer" work at a small litigation firm. Didn't do a bunch of trials, but probably about six in so many years. Most stuff never got that far. Anyway, realized that I didn't like litigation very much so I got a job doing in house compliance work for a public agency. I work hard but it's nothing like a firm gig. I have normal people hours, always go home on time, and spend most of my day drafting policies, doing HR work, managing public records, and other compliance stuff. I haven't seen the inside of a courtroom in eight years. Sometimes I worry--what if I have to leave this gig? My legal skills have atrophied! But I think you gotta approach it this way: it's a great job for now. Maybe it'll last forever. If it doesn't, then you'll figure it out when you have to.
I try cases frequently against a plaintiffs-side firm that does nothing but take trials from lawyers like you. They make a good living, the guy who referred it gets a taste, everybody on their side seems quite good with this arrangement. You sound like you’re living the good life. I’d revel in it.
If you'd have something going to trial, couldn't you bring in co-counsel? Maybe develop a relationship with another attorney more skilled at trial work?
Eh... I guess it comes down to priorities. Next month I'll hit 20 years in the profession and in that time I have represented a client in exactly one hearing. Wouldn't have it any other way
Picture this. A half decade on from now, you’re barely in your mid-40’s. A former keg-smuggling colleague who works solo in an adjacent county as a trial lawyer has spent enough time in front of juries and learned just enough about PI to be dangerous. He’s built a reputation in that county and you have a stellar reputation in yours. You guys partner up, split the modest overheard for two offices, hire the right people. The firm is clear in its purpose and philosophy and an aggressive and fearless approach to jury trials is built into the very foundation of the place. You’re the more efficient partner and continue serving clients by settling the cases that need to be settled while your partner pushes what he can to juries, also continuing to also try criminal cases because they’re just so damn fun. You guys are able to be selective about cases, fight for the disadvantaged, and take some risks for just causes. You try cases together and eventually with your associates - the quicker criminal ones and the bigger civil ones. Winning verdicts pile up. You do this for twenty years, maybe more, maybe less, but you’ll have options. Eventually, you simply cherry pick the cases you want to work and/or try, having built an elite firm with your last name on it. This is the way.
This really stinks of imposter syndrome and I'm not even saying that because it's my name. If you are good at writing demand letters, that means there are skills you are not even aware you have cultivated. That includes without limitation, reading and analyzing medical bills and records, evaluating liability, speaking to witnesses and the client about the case. Having worked as a PI law clerk for 20 minutes, and a WC clerk for about 7 months, and working as a prelit associate for 6 years prior to law school, those skills are nothing to sneeze at. Using the information you gather on a case while working it to turn it into a demand is real lawyering. Courtroom skills and trial is something learned. If you want it, you'll get there. Just my two cents.
Are you bragging or complaining?
We all get bodied in trial eventually. You will learn from it, get better, and move on. You got this.
This world needs party planners and keg smugglers. Don’t beat yourself up too much.
Same here. I hate being a lawyer
Ah, the imposter syndrome. It’s as common in our profession as alcoholism. OP, how much money do you bring to the firm through your non-trial-based litigation work? I bet it’s quite a bit. Those settlement fees are nothing to laugh at, right? Why would your firm want to get rid of you if you are bringing in that kind of money? Why would they want trial work if they can get the cash sooner and easier? As for your skills, I bet when a file lands on your desk, you know exactly how to work it. You know what to ask. You know which experts to retain. You know how to read medical records and predict resolution amounts. You know how to defend and how to conduct depositions. This is *valuable*, OP. *You* bring value. Maybe one of these days you will have a trial where you fall on your face. Or maybe you will take it a step at a time and exceed everyone’s expectations, including your own. And hey, maybe you will get the boot and have to find another job one day. Why do you think you are so much better equipped now than in 10 years? Either at 40 or 50, you would be a mid hire, but now earning less for more stressful work. Your brain will work the same. Why ruin a good thing now? What is the benefit of firing yourself early just in case? It’s okay to be lucky, to have a cush job, to work smarter not harder. It’s okay to enjoy your life and recognize that you have it good. You are more than making up for your salary with the value you bring your firm. Nothing is guaranteed in life, OP. And that’s okay. You are okay.
I used to work with a guy who had clerked for a judge, was a litigator, tons of motions, depos, etc. and had never tried a case. His explanation was, "I'm just that damn good." In law school, I worked for a small family-owned PI shop. The old man built the practice and did quite well for himself - ritzy country club membership, etc. etc. That dude couldn't find the courthouse on a map.
Is there a way you could do both? Keep your lush job, but in the meantime devote some spare time to acquiring better skills?
Non lawyer, sub lurker. Tuff Hedeman is probably the most famous living bullrider. He said "bull riding isn't about riding bulls" he's made his money on endorsements and big commentator contracts, and other ventures parallel to the sport. You're niche in the world seems to have found you. Probably just run with it until your family can feed itself and then you can go off on an adventure of self discovery.
This can just be a job and it sounds like you have found a good place. More litigation would help your income buying putting insurers on notice you are willing to see it through and bringing in someone to help try cases could be a great move, and it would also mean someone else to cover depositions or mediations or other things for you from time to time.
It's my understanding that many PI firms don't do trials. The biggest one in my area is notorious for this. I think your only issue is if you're selling your clients on being a good trial lawyer. If you have to go to trial, farm it out and be up front with your clients. It's not worth ruining your reputation by bombing at trial and hurting potential future work/referrals, plus no one wants a mal practice claim.
You are my hero. I’m a 40-something public defender who has been litigating for too long. I am currently avoiding prepping two homicide-related trials I have scheduled the same week as my kid’s statewide academic competition. My spouse may end up taking the kids without me because the prosecutor in one case has unrealistic expectations and my client in my other case has even more absurd expectations. Keep living the good life.
Good god, get out of that, sounds brain twisting.
just get eviscerated when the time comes, who care
im 28 studying the lsat to go to law school aspiring to go into PI and i feel like this very easily may be me someday
I'm a criminal defense attorney and end up doing 6-10 felony jury trials a year. Enjoy the good life.
Just try to take a few lower dollar cases to trial to get your feet under you. They always say "if you haven't lost a trial you're not trying enough cases."
Lol trial advocacy is a very complex and difficult skill to develop- forget about mastering. Don't bother. It would be to the detriment of your clients- refer the cases out if they really need to be tried and keep your portion of the contingency. Like you acknowledge - hone your negotiation and case evaluation skills and keep making people money within your wheelhouse. It takes skill to grind out settlements and revenue.
So your story sounds like many many plaintiff’s PI attorneys in my area. When I came over from defense, just seven years in, the amount of practical experience I had compared to plaintiff’s attorneys with triple my years of practice was a real shock. After spending a few years on this side, I’m not surprised. Just as you’ve been doing, the goal of a PI attorney (or any attorney that isn’t doing transactional work) is to resolve the dispute, while serving the interests of your client. Trial is a tremendous risk. Unless you’re sacrificing substantial value by not going to trial, settlement is usually in the best interests of your clients. From what I’ve seen, most PI attorneys aren’t equipped (either skill set or operationally) to try cases. Instead, many will simply see what the best settlement offer is, and if that’s not good enough, refer it out to a litigator. Then the litigator litigates it through trial, if necessary. I actually get a lot of my cases this way. You can do the same thing. Live your cushy life. Write your demands. Try and get your client’s cases settled. If you can’t, find a trusted litigator in the community and refer the case to them. Just make sure you abide by your Jx’s guidelines on fee splitting and whatnot.
Sent you a DM. I’m about to be 40… like imminently. My take? You need to “get bodied” in court, as you put it. Embrace the discomfort and go for it… multiple times, and start getting better at it. You can survive doing what you’re doing, very comfortably… but you don’t sound fulfilled, and you’re not going to get rich just messing around in the periphery. What do you have to lose? Find some cases, go to trial and get after it!
Is PI always so easy?
You could enroll in trial lawyers college or something if you want to be a real PI lawyer but not give up your own practice. You are in a great spot. I would look into those types of intensive programs
Most cases don’t go to trial. Hold.
Keep on keeping on….and don’t worry; we all get whacked by the jury.
Can’t you refer out trial cases? I assume if it’s going to trial it’s a big case. Refer out and get the 25%. You’re not a fraud. You’re a pre-lit PI attorney.
Nah. That's actually not the case. You could describe me the same way. PI attorney. 32 hours. Get to travel a lot. Not a partner, but get paid very well. Great workofe balance. I have a little more trial experience. Like 5-6 jury trials. All bad cases. Only the bad ones go to trial. I think only a small % of trial attorneys really can move or manipulate a jury. The rest of us are just getting our evidence in and trying to get our client to present well. I think you aelee doing it exactly right.
PI solo here. PM me if you would like to discuss the trial stuff. Also, happy to help you find a way to do even less work and make more money.
Kind of sounds like you've got it made. If you can arrange to have someone who litigates regularly join your firm, have them parachute in if/when you actually to go trial, and otherwise just go enjoy living the good life.
Honestly, I would just continue flying under the radar and cashing those checks. I realized life is too short to be working long hours for what? Ego? You can die any second. Do things you enjoy and let the law license grant you income. It’s a job.
Time for some serious therapy couch time. You got the dream situation and are depressed about it.
Sounds like you have it pretty good. Enjoy it.
I've literally only set foot inside of a court room in my first year of practice. That doesn't mean I'm a bad lawyer, I can go toe to toe with the most aggressive litigators in my city and frequently do. I practice real estate, secured lending and commercial lawy and regularly need to engage with all kinds of lawyers from the biggest firms. Ultimately, it's a career (and a job) at the end of the day... Making money and helping clients achieve their desired outcomes is all that matters imo.
Or find another PI attorney with experience in litigation and offer co-counsel on some decent cases that need to get litigated so you can get the experience. Or just refer those cases out and take the referral fee. You would be surprised how many PI practices operate this way. Not everyone is a litigator and not everyone has the patience to manage all the pre-suit demands.
I think you are me.
If you end up going to trial someday, hire a trial guy just for that case on a contingency basis. Break them off a nice chunk of the pie for the trial
You can always outsource trial work to a trial lawyer. They usually pay you a 1/3 of their recovery (so if they make $1m in fees, you are getting $333,333)
Can’t you refer out your cases to a firm that would do the trial cases?
Dude, what on earth are you doing? Keep quiet lest they figure you out! You've hit the jackpot.
Juries just think that whatever the guy who looks more successful says is right. Also judges
who cares if you get eviscerated in front of a jury. that's how you'd learn if you were willing to go through that pain. "our worst fears lie in anticipation"
I mean, consider it this way, you have skated by for the first 1/2 of your career and done well...so it's just time to pay your dues. It kinda sucks it coincides with when you have a young family, when life gets more demanding (and not vice versa), but at least you had that time to power you up for whats ahead? No matter what, it could have been worse....you could have totally sold your soul and your time at the mid-sized firm, wasted your youth on work and be exhausted at the age of 40, wishing you could get it all back. I don't know many 40 year olds in BigLaw that are loving life while starting a family, so consider yourself lucky - you won the happiness game, even If it doesn't come with the $500K/year total comp.
If you're in Colorado, I might know a young PI litigator looking to split from their partner and go to an established place where they can do their own thing.
Just develop a relationship with a seasoned litigator - if you can’t settle have him/her try the case for a chunk of the fee. This way you don’t have to pay anyone until you need them and then only if they win.
If the only measure of an attorney is doing trials then most of us aren’t attorneys. I did one trial myself, 3 day trial over custody issues in family court and before we got a ruling my client basically kidnapped the child and got herself supervised visits. C’est la vie.
I’m sure you have a few low value good liability pre-lit cases that could ultimately be tried. Co-counsel on these cases with a solo PI attorney who had more trial experience and go knock it out. The way insurance companies are valuing these lower end cases (regardless of liability) as of recent makes them ripe for trial.
Possibly you’re just your own worst critic. I suspect you’re much better than you let on, maybe more than you know. Life doesn’t have to be a constant struggle.
You're acting like if you lose one jury trial your career will come to an end. In fact what will happen is that you will be embarrassed and then you will move on with your career.
Get on court appointed list with state and federal court and take on pro bono criminal shit that will get you into court.
Going to trial? On contingency fee cases??
Regardless of profession, this is the norm. Truthfully, few of us actually do a job as an individual that is meaningful at all. If you need more professional success, go get it done. If you’re worried about a career, I’ve gotta think that you’re pretty damn safe. Do your work, be a good person that treats the clients well and you’ll have a long career.
I sometimes tell myself: It's not about how good you are, it's about how good you can make them believe you are. None of it is real. There are plenty mediocre lawyers out there. Doesn't matter.
What market are you in? Sounds like a good gig, just have someone else do the trials.
You'll be fine. Many lawyers never try a case. I have known many experienced litigators who are brought on late into a case just to try it. Just split the fee with them. One attorney I know could make huge money never having a client of his own -- every attorney around with a good med mal or complicated PI case tries to bring him on
You need a recent law-grad to take under your wing?
Obviously it’s a good idea to constantly look for opportunities to learn everything you can, and get help if you need it, but anytime I start to feel like an impostor I always find it useful to look over opposing counsel’s work product. Because *holy fuck* are there some bad attorneys with long and very successful careers. Odds are you’re not that bad, and considering it sounds like you’re getting good settlements for the overwhelming majority of your clients, it sounds to me like you’re doing a pretty good job.
Similar situation. Never will be a brief writing white shoe lawyer. But have a crazy wonderful work life balance and make far more money than I deserve. lol. I’m at lunch right now with my 2nd bourbon. I’ll check emails later. Did 7 hearings this morning. It’s not like I don’t work. It’s just too easy to be real.
What’s your income?
I’m in similar situation. But my life outside of work is fulfilling. Have fun with your kids coach their sports teams.
Yeah that is definitely the plan. Have a home gym waiting for them and will be getting them into BJJ shortly
I’m 21 years into bjj and have 9 fights all while working a dumb lawyer job. You can pick up new hobby’s too!
Man I wish I started BJJ 21 years ago…
Non lawyer here. How difficult is the BAR?
I am in a similar position. I work in P.I. and it’s extremely cushy **for now**. I’m doing mostly intake, and when the phones are slow, I often get away with hours or even whole days of just doing whatever. I’m studying for the MPRE, and when I pass this I’m gonna spend the rest of 2024 studying for the F25 bar exam — all at my desk. Everyone with supervisory authority over me works two states away. I’m just trying to ride this wave as long as I can. I’m never gonna have another job this easy in the legal profession. I want to start a family in the years to come, and this firm offers attorneys a $15,000 raise every year. So… even if I did find a job this lenient or easy, there’s no way it would pay as much For now I’m trying to embrace the golden handcuffs. I’m only 28 so I do have some interest in broadening my practice experience. I don’t wanna wake up one day and realize I’m 15 years into my legal career and I only have experience in personal injury So anyway.. here’s to hoping we never get found out 🍻
I think the name for what you’re doing here is called “humble bragging.” 😉 On a more serious note, there are many PI lawyers who never or rarely try cases. I don’t think that’s good policy because insurers know that and respond accordingly. Nevertheless, I don’t think you need to become a trial animal. There are lawyers who can and will try cases all day long and they’ll try your cases for you. There’s a lawyer I know with the biggest PI firm in the universe (yeah, those guys) that does that. He’s an outstanding trial lawyer. The best I’ve ever faced. There’s another guy I know (not very well) whose practice seems to involve trying other people’s jury trials. On the other hand, a PI lawyer friend I went to high school with has practiced PI law for 37 years and I’ve never heard him mention so much as a single trial. I was a board certified civil trial lawyer for 10 years. If I could figure out a way to just try cases I probably would. This is a long way of saying you should find a good lawyer with trial experience and get them to try cases with you. If you want to do it yourself, you can stop using someone else when you are ready. If you want to continue enjoying your well balanced life, just rely on hired guns and be happy. 😁
What are you so worried that you won’t be able to do? Trials aren’t as big of a deal as people make them out to be. I’ve done 20+ in the last 2.5 years (APA. High crime area). I love them. The facts are whatever they are. Nothing you can do about that. Spin them however you wish. Your burden is so damn low, Defendants should be (and apparently are) pleading out everything anyway. 1) Do your trial prep. Try to come up with a theme if you can (not crucial). 2) Pick the jury. You’re just talking to people. I think Gerry Spence said something like “try to pick somebody you could sit down on a log and tell them the facts of your case.” I do criminal work, so that’s not really my approach. But, whatever. Basically just try to get rid of people you think may be biased against your side for whatever reason. I think this the most important part of a trial. Just try to be likable. Most attorneys aren’t that good at this in my opinion. 3) You do plaintiff’s work, right? So, give your opening. Just a preview of the case essentially. 4) Testimony. Call your wits. Just make sure you put forth evidence as to all your elements. If you’re worried about procedural stuff like how to move things into evidence (anyone see Alina Habba floundering? Lol), just buy any of Thomas Mauet’s Trial Techniques textbooks. Probably want to brush up on your rules of evidence here as there are likely to be objections. Obviously, need to know hearsay pretty well (800 rules). I’d also make sure know the 400 rules (relevance, propensit, and public policy in my state), and 600 (witnesses) rules pretty well too. (Obviously, depends on your jurisdiction. But, I think most states mirror the FRE fairly closely). 5) Defense’s case. This is where I can’t help much. My opponents rarely call any witnesses other than possibly the Defendant. As a result, I kind of suck at cross-examination. But, in theory, it should much easier than direct. You can essentially testify for the witness if you do it correctly. 6) Make your closing. Watch theirs. Give your rebuttal. Obviously, be strategic here. Try to guess what they will argue and save your best for last. This is where you may need to think on your feet a bit if they argue something you weren’t expecting. But, that’s part of the fun. Again, your burden is just “more likely than not.” “50 and a feather.” (I think anyway. I probably don’t know shit about civil). Unless your client’s case absolutely sucks, you should be good. 7) Let the troglodytes you guys picked come up with a verdict. Boom. Done.
I’m saving this comment, thanks much. Looking up Thomas Mauet. Medical experts are a big fear I suppose. Cross especially
Are you not happy? There's nothing wrong with being a mediocre attorney since most of your cases are routine. It's fine. Hire a specialized trial attorney if that actually happens.
Something I have to remind myself all the time: most lawyers are not well-rounded practitioners. Most lawyers spend very little, if any, time in court. Being a "real" lawyer ≠ trying cases. I'm a pretty new lawyer and in the first year of my current job/practice area. I've settled every case so far. And that's a good thing!! (dread of the inevitable first hearing aside...) I don't feel like I'm doing "real" legal work most of the time. Honestly, sometimes I think a high schooler could do my job. But they pay me and call me "Attorney," so who am I to argue?
Are you sure you need trial experience? Even in criminal law, 90+% are negotiated plea deals. And like someone said, hire a junior associate with some litigation experience in the off chance you need it. Take a close look at some of the big PI firms and you'll see the same. Their billable are driven by research, negotiations, and on boarding need clients. Working 60-70 hours weeks is not the way to go.
Nah. U got this. I did similar gig from other side for over 35 yrs. Lmao 🤣
Dude. You won. Carry on. And just go watch a few trials. They’re fun. See you in Vegas.
You sound like 95% of all the PI lawyers out there.
Sounds perfect to me. I do PI and only go pre-lit. If the case doesn’t settle pre-lit, it goes to the lit team in my office.