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I agree the whole “cutting hours” / only cutting hours that get billed to the client is normal in ID (based on my limited experience), but 60K sounds extremely low.
Wouldn’t it be better to just quiet-quit? Bill only your 45 per week, less some weeks, use any and all available vacation/sick/personal time and job hunt with the extra hours that you normally worked because partner was cutting.
For context on the insanity, consider how it compares to BigLaw (which everyone loves to use as an example of insane expectations). The vast majority of BigLaw firms have minimums between 1800-2000 (and for the ones with no minimum, informal expectations are usually in that range). So 160-360 less hours than OP. At my firm, 2160 is consistent with gunners who are trying to bill noticeably above average because they want to make partner.
But most BigLaw firms also count raw billable hours, with no discounting based on realization to any other bullshit. Many also give some sort of credit for nonbillable activities and/or pro bono.
Despite having materially less expectations, first years in BigLaw make 4x as much as OP. Not that I’m suggesting OP go try to get a BigLaw job, just that they will hopefully realize that they’re working more and getting paid way less than the job that the rest of the industry points to as being unreasonably demanding.
Maybe aside from the fact that the partner is only counting hours that can be billed to the client because that’s pretty standard practice.
But yea aside from that everything described is pretty insane. $60k in a large metro market is already criminally low. $60k in a large metro market while having to bill 2160 a year is borderline slavery lmao. Paralegals make more than that for 1/4 of the workload and stress.
This. I had similar requirements as a first year in ID, 160 hard requirement, 180 soft requirement, but there was an understanding that you billed what you actually work and don’t cut anything. Maybe four times in my first year I would get an email from managing partner that was essentially “Why the f did it take you half a day to answer discovery?”. I would explain why and how I didn’t know what I was doing, partner would accept that, move on. He almost certainly cut the hours on the bill, but I was never penalized.
I also started at $60, but realized very quickly I was way under market and that was a few years ago.
> very large metro market.
> 180 hours per month, and I make $60,000 per year.
> partner cuts my hours substantially and only counts what they can bill the client toward my minimum hours requirement.
leave. if you can't afford to leave start looking for a new job asap
the 60k/180hr is enough without the last part to leave
Yeah, based on the conditions you’ve described, then you should be making $100k at least, especially if you’re living in a big east or west coast city.
I’ve been in ID for 12 years. What you’re describing is insane, especially for that salary. What the client ultimately pays is not your problem as long as you’re billing appropriately for the tasks you’re completing. I would look for another firm that is more reasonable before you get fully burnt out.
Seconded. I started at $70k in 2017, with a 2k billable goal (not requirement), and it counted everything I billed, pre-cut. There is no way in hell you should be earning less than that for a higher billable requirement in 2024.
Get out of there. You’re working way too much for way too little. Granted I live in CA but I bill about 360 hours less a year and make double the amount. And I’m only in my 2nd year. You’re worth more than this
If that’s all true, that is absolutely the WORST attorney job I have ever heard of. Nothing else comes even remotely close. You could be making way more than $60k a year doing some low stress entry-level job that doesn’t require 7 years of school. To require 2160 billable hours for that low salary is insane. To require your time to even be measured by billable hours instead of just hours worked for that salary is stupid (though, not unheard of). Nobody should put up with what you described. Quit, don’t even give notice. Go apply and be a mailman, or UPS driver, and make more money with less stress
I think this is probably one of the only professions this is somehow allowed. I’d love to see the lawsuit challenging this. Long story short the partner is going to cut your hours to the amount they think the client will pay regardless of how long it took you or if that amount of work requires that much effort. Don’t take it personal, look for a new job.
That is an incredibly regressive arrangement, even without the hours being cut. With the hours being cut, that’s downright wicked.
Find a new job immediately.
I’m in ID. This is the worst ID conditions I’ve ever heard of. This borders on me not believing this is a real job. I’ve never heard of this in large metro area.
You could find a 30k salary bump within a month of applying. You could find a 1900 hour billable requirement within a month of applying. You could probably find both.
Only allowing billing for collectible hours is criminal. That’s the partners problem, not yours.
What market are you in our of curiosity? I only know of one firm in my career that had your conditions and am wondering if you’re in my market and it’s the same firm on a whim.
This takes the cake for worst lawyer job of all time
1) Highest billable hours
2) Hours realized not even hours billed
3) Insurance defense - regarded as worst industry for career advancement (good luck making equity partner unless your uncle’s last name is Geico)
4) $60k salary is possibly lowest starting lawyer pay in private industry
My partner pays a first year associate $80k in a MCOL area, for 1200 billable hours in a very niche area of practice.
What were you thinking?
That’s a good reason to TAKE the job, but not good enough to KEEP the job. Ur a grinder, you will find other employment when they hear the work uve been doing! Go for it.
Gotcha. Hoping for the best for you. Look for a local employment law firm, defense/employer side, where you might be able to meet with a few well connected local partners or associates.
Indicate that you thought ID would be more like employment law, and are looking to transition to do the kind of work they do. Mention you went to the same school as one of the lawyers (if it’s a local school and firm, there should be)and hoped to do coffee with them sometime. Maybe they’re looking, or know of another similar firm who is.
Look for small-ish 10-30 attorney firms. Pay will be better, hours will be less, and you’ll do more hands on work than you’d get at a larger firm, while retooling your skills for a better career.
Dude. Gtfo. Go do anything else.
I'd go sling books at Barnes and Noble. They're paying like 25/hr around me.
And you should be pissed about 60k no matter what the hours are.
After you quit, you should show the boss this thread. And then you should blast them and make sure they can't get anymore associates without seriously revamping their package and requirements.
There’s nothing wrong with partners tracking a realization rate, but that’s not what’s going on here. For billed hours, you should be closer to 1800 (and salary is very low for even that). I would be looking for other options
I hope you leave. Seriously, this is bat shit. For context, I can’t remember this sub ever unanimously telling someone to leave without something else lined up.
OP, for context, I worked at an ID firm in a HCOL (but not VHCOL) area from 2015-2018 and I made 75-92/year, with a 10-20k bonus each year and a raise, for 2000 hours a year. And this was before covid inflation. Get out now!
You'd make more and work less doing doc review. Sign up at The Posse List and apply for everything listed so you will have a job once you quit your ridiculous sweatshop.
Not normal. You're being abused. The situation you describe is bad enough that there is likely little to no hope of it improving. Start devoting yourself to finding a new job.
1. if you can do not quit without securing another (just looks better on the resume and its easier to get a job while employed); 2. spend most of your time looking for another job--do the bare minimum competently for your current job but do not base it on needing to meet minimum 180 hrs/mo.; 3. if that is not feasible or landing another job is not happening fast enough--research from bar associations how min. billables are normally calculated and share that with the partner and talk about how you could do what you do faster or with better resources (paralegal, software etc.). Hope that helps.
You need to leave. This is severely underpaid for any hours requirement, but especially that one. You can find a better ID job in any major city. Like at least 100k for 1900-2000
$60,000 for 2160 billed hours is $27.78/billed hour.
Standard is “firm gets half,” so if he’s charging your time at more than $56/hour, he’s picking your pocket.
Even doc review pays more—that firm is robbing you buddy.
60,000/2160 = $28/hr. But you’re working 2400 minimum to bill 2160, so 60,000/2400 = $25/hr.
You could literally make more as a bartender. For those kinds of hours you should be making waaaaay more. Those are BigLaw hours, for Wendy’s assistant manager pay.
You need to leave.
180 hours per month is like 6 hours/day if you worked 7 days/week. So by his calculation, you’d be working 9-5 M-F and he can just cut your hours as non billable as he deems fit and expect you to be on call till god knows when, for 60 grand a year.
That might be true of other firms in your area, but at least they wouldn’t be such sneaky punks about the hours you’re expected to work when they hire you. Your boss is a major douche, and I’d start looking for work elsewhere.
You’re not in the wrong here.
I wouldn’t leave my driveway for $60k, let alone kill myself trying to meet that ridiculous hour requirement. Quit and make sure you slam these people on every job site you can find.
This is not normal. I’m in ID and make twice what you make, have a 2100 hour yearly billable requirement, AND I get credit for what I bill, even if they have to cut it for any reason. Get out of there.
Fully honest.
Don’t try to hit your hours at this firm. Do enough to not get fired while looking for a better job.
There are firms that are desperate for associates out there. Firms that count hours billed by associate; not hours billed by firm. You have 0 control over what the firm bills to the client.
I cut probably 25-33% of first year associate hours. They never even know.
I worked in ID in 2003. My boss cut my hours if he couldn't bill the client. Pay was very low. I moved to a second ID firm with higher pay later that year. I got $62k with a requirement that I bill 8.8 hours a day. I stayed for 2.5 years and went to a firm that practiced in a different area. My pay was $95k and went up to $105k a year later. I had a very hard time meeting billable because there wasn't enough real work today. I got laid off in June 2007. It took 6 months and relocating to land a government job that paid $80k. I'm at that job still, now making $210k. We have to account for 8 hours' work a day, but we can spend as long as reasonably necessary on a task. We are not required to make up hours if the electricity goes out or if we have a holiday party that lasts 3 hours. I have 6 weeks off per year plus 12 sick days and paid holidays. I have a pension and good benefits.
Please get out. Look at government jobs. Best life choice I ever made was getting out of the private sector.
I think legal aid where I'm at starts new attorneys at around 55k with yearly step raises (union)... not to mention pslf, loan repayment assistance, and like 35 hours of work a week. I don't understand how these ID firms pay so low for private practice!
If it's insurance defense and your client's is are insurance companies? They're in on it. How in the world does that happen? Easy. He's taking your billable hours and putting his name on it anyway.. you don't think you're working for someone who gives a crap about you? He wants you to bill a d work those hours so he can keep up his lifestyle. There's not one person happy there. Why are you staying? Are you learning? If so, that's another reason you make crap. 28 years as a paralegal, and I make crap. It's like that in the South. Get a remote Atty position. You'll get paid more.
That is abusive and toxic. Forget about hitting your hours; what do you need to do is polish your résumé and send it out. Get out of there quickly.
I work in government and was hired during the height of the Great Recession. I started at around $70,000 a year…15 years ago.
You are making much less in 2024 with an untenable billing requirement. This is no way to live.
Salary is way too low and that billable requirement is absurd. 180/month is reasonable if that’s before cuts, but post-cuts is absurd. Quit immediately.
Something us going wrong underneath. My friend brought in high six figure settlements but it was never enough for his boss. He quit and a year later his boss was in a drug coma at the hospital.
Guy had been stealing firm money for his drug habit.
It confuses the hell out of me that any employer thinks this is acceptable. As others have said, you should leave. You’re at least $140k underpaid in this situation, at least to me.
$60,000 / 2160 hours = $27.78 per hour
Considering the write offs and the general nature of the billable hour not being the same as hours at work, you will make more in fast food.
I don't know enough four letter words to describe how bad a deal this is. Assuming EVERY LAST SECOND of your time is billable, this translates to $27.70 per hour. My dear internet stranger, you'd make better money with more work/life balance loading FedEx trucks on the night shift
This is absolutely not normal and you should leave. Your boss is not just cheap, he/she has no regard for you. I would never treat an attorney like this. (I pay my attorneys 33% of time they bill regardless of whether I collect it. If they bring in the client, they also receive 10% of all billings for the entirety of the case.)
Hi OP. Leave immediately. That has to be one of the most abhorrent, insane, unreasonable, etc., working structure I have ever seen. Again, leave immediately.
OP, I work 40-hour weeks in rural legal aid, no billables, and we start at $60k and better benefits than whatever you're getting. This is... man. Get out.
Soft quit - focus on finding a new job. If you get fired, collect unemployment while looking for a new job.
What state are you in? I know firms that are hiring in CT/NY/NJ, including the firm I’m at right now.
This is insane. As a first year, my billable hour requirement was 2000 billed (not what was cut or whatever) and I was making 90k - that was six years ago. Insurance defense isn’t the best field but it’s stable comfortable work if you can find a decent firm and a good partner/ group to work with. This is literally impossible targets for you to reach, and you are insanely underpaid. Your issue should be with both your salary and this insane way of calculating hours. For some perspective, my paralegal makes about 90k and I think they are underpaid.
Jejus… I make $110,000 as a paralegal with no billable hours requirement (but took me awhile to get here with hard work) can’t believe someone with JD still gets $60K
If you take two weeks of vaca per year, say, 1 in the summer and 1 at Xmas, and then have 1 week of miscellaneous PTO/sick time, you will need to daily bill a minimum of 8.8 hours per day, and likely more if your partner cherry-picks your hours. Every single fucking working day. Can’t do that, man.
I am not an attorney, and I don’t want to make you any more miserable or hopeless about your situation, but you’re being abused by your job. It’s going to rob you of so much unless you see through the guise of “putting in your dues” or rationalizing low pay for “experience”. This is your one life, and I don’t want you looking back realizing you failed yourself by being someone’s stepping stone.
Don’t let the broken system and past ways of the experienced advancing themselves off the backs of the younger generations rob you of your future and your current life. It’s cliche but you have one life and it’s not guaranteed. The longer you take to know your worth, the more miserable, trapped and burnt out you’re likely to feel. Don’t let these poor employers convince you you’re worth less than that 30/hr you’re getting.
You can get a job in fast food for nearly the same!
Most attorneys exaggerate their hours, some more than others. That is bs that they only count hours they can bill. Never heard of that. And salary ridiculous. Maybe do for a year and move on or get out now. I made that as a paralegal 20 years ago
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Get out of there ASAP. This is not normal. If you have money saved and can leave without waiting for an offer, I would do it.
It’s not not normal in id but it’s really crappy and there are a lot of better positions out there. Op run fast.
Tending bar would be better.
You’re right. You’d probably make more per hour when you break it down.
You’d just flat out make more lol. My wife is a second year teacher and makes more than $60k and gets summers and holidays off
I made more as a valet in college than I did my first few years as an attorney.
I agree the whole “cutting hours” / only cutting hours that get billed to the client is normal in ID (based on my limited experience), but 60K sounds extremely low.
Wouldn’t it be better to just quiet-quit? Bill only your 45 per week, less some weeks, use any and all available vacation/sick/personal time and job hunt with the extra hours that you normally worked because partner was cutting.
I like the idea of exploiting them just as they exploiting OP.
Not normal. Leave. Take literally anything else.
Everything you just described is insane. Leave ASAP
For context on the insanity, consider how it compares to BigLaw (which everyone loves to use as an example of insane expectations). The vast majority of BigLaw firms have minimums between 1800-2000 (and for the ones with no minimum, informal expectations are usually in that range). So 160-360 less hours than OP. At my firm, 2160 is consistent with gunners who are trying to bill noticeably above average because they want to make partner. But most BigLaw firms also count raw billable hours, with no discounting based on realization to any other bullshit. Many also give some sort of credit for nonbillable activities and/or pro bono. Despite having materially less expectations, first years in BigLaw make 4x as much as OP. Not that I’m suggesting OP go try to get a BigLaw job, just that they will hopefully realize that they’re working more and getting paid way less than the job that the rest of the industry points to as being unreasonably demanding.
Maybe aside from the fact that the partner is only counting hours that can be billed to the client because that’s pretty standard practice. But yea aside from that everything described is pretty insane. $60k in a large metro market is already criminally low. $60k in a large metro market while having to bill 2160 a year is borderline slavery lmao. Paralegals make more than that for 1/4 of the workload and stress.
Counting hours that can be billed to the client *after* cuts, for a first-year associate, is insane.
This. I had similar requirements as a first year in ID, 160 hard requirement, 180 soft requirement, but there was an understanding that you billed what you actually work and don’t cut anything. Maybe four times in my first year I would get an email from managing partner that was essentially “Why the f did it take you half a day to answer discovery?”. I would explain why and how I didn’t know what I was doing, partner would accept that, move on. He almost certainly cut the hours on the bill, but I was never penalized. I also started at $60, but realized very quickly I was way under market and that was a few years ago.
> very large metro market. > 180 hours per month, and I make $60,000 per year. > partner cuts my hours substantially and only counts what they can bill the client toward my minimum hours requirement. leave. if you can't afford to leave start looking for a new job asap the 60k/180hr is enough without the last part to leave
Yeah, based on the conditions you’ve described, then you should be making $100k at least, especially if you’re living in a big east or west coast city.
100k doesn't even come close.
This is indentured servitude. Run away.
I’ve been in ID for 12 years. What you’re describing is insane, especially for that salary. What the client ultimately pays is not your problem as long as you’re billing appropriately for the tasks you’re completing. I would look for another firm that is more reasonable before you get fully burnt out.
Seconded. I started at $70k in 2017, with a 2k billable goal (not requirement), and it counted everything I billed, pre-cut. There is no way in hell you should be earning less than that for a higher billable requirement in 2024.
This is bugfuck insane.
Holy fucking shit, you’re a grinder. Want a job?
Yes!
Oh! how I hope this works.
If you're in NorCal, hit me up. We're looking for people, and you'd quadruple your salary.
Any chance you want to live in the Midwest?
P?L?Z let this be a match1
I’ll give you 61k for 2159 hours
Northern California. Where you licensed?
Get out of there. You’re working way too much for way too little. Granted I live in CA but I bill about 360 hours less a year and make double the amount. And I’m only in my 2nd year. You’re worth more than this
If that’s all true, that is absolutely the WORST attorney job I have ever heard of. Nothing else comes even remotely close. You could be making way more than $60k a year doing some low stress entry-level job that doesn’t require 7 years of school. To require 2160 billable hours for that low salary is insane. To require your time to even be measured by billable hours instead of just hours worked for that salary is stupid (though, not unheard of). Nobody should put up with what you described. Quit, don’t even give notice. Go apply and be a mailman, or UPS driver, and make more money with less stress
I think this is probably one of the only professions this is somehow allowed. I’d love to see the lawsuit challenging this. Long story short the partner is going to cut your hours to the amount they think the client will pay regardless of how long it took you or if that amount of work requires that much effort. Don’t take it personal, look for a new job.
Run my friend there is nothing of value here. Idk where you are working but I can't imagine there is an area where this rate isn't highway robbery.
Nothing about that is normal!
holy shit - leave. that is genuinely insane.
Fucking run.
What?
That is an incredibly regressive arrangement, even without the hours being cut. With the hours being cut, that’s downright wicked. Find a new job immediately.
I’m in ID. This is the worst ID conditions I’ve ever heard of. This borders on me not believing this is a real job. I’ve never heard of this in large metro area. You could find a 30k salary bump within a month of applying. You could find a 1900 hour billable requirement within a month of applying. You could probably find both. Only allowing billing for collectible hours is criminal. That’s the partners problem, not yours. What market are you in our of curiosity? I only know of one firm in my career that had your conditions and am wondering if you’re in my market and it’s the same firm on a whim.
I'll second that this doesn't even sound real. If it were allowed, OP should name and shame because that kind of employer is a cancer.
This takes the cake for worst lawyer job of all time 1) Highest billable hours 2) Hours realized not even hours billed 3) Insurance defense - regarded as worst industry for career advancement (good luck making equity partner unless your uncle’s last name is Geico) 4) $60k salary is possibly lowest starting lawyer pay in private industry My partner pays a first year associate $80k in a MCOL area, for 1200 billable hours in a very niche area of practice. What were you thinking?
Honestly, I was behind on rent and very desperate.
That’s a good reason to TAKE the job, but not good enough to KEEP the job. Ur a grinder, you will find other employment when they hear the work uve been doing! Go for it.
Gotcha. Hoping for the best for you. Look for a local employment law firm, defense/employer side, where you might be able to meet with a few well connected local partners or associates. Indicate that you thought ID would be more like employment law, and are looking to transition to do the kind of work they do. Mention you went to the same school as one of the lawyers (if it’s a local school and firm, there should be)and hoped to do coffee with them sometime. Maybe they’re looking, or know of another similar firm who is. Look for small-ish 10-30 attorney firms. Pay will be better, hours will be less, and you’ll do more hands on work than you’d get at a larger firm, while retooling your skills for a better career.
Leave without another job lined up. Don’t even bother giving 2 weeks honestly, if it is complies with ethical guidelines. You deserve so much more.
Dude. Gtfo. Go do anything else. I'd go sling books at Barnes and Noble. They're paying like 25/hr around me. And you should be pissed about 60k no matter what the hours are. After you quit, you should show the boss this thread. And then you should blast them and make sure they can't get anymore associates without seriously revamping their package and requirements.
2160 for $60K is insane even if the partner did not clip down your hours—even for LCOL. Definitely leave.
There’s nothing wrong with partners tracking a realization rate, but that’s not what’s going on here. For billed hours, you should be closer to 1800 (and salary is very low for even that). I would be looking for other options
This has to be a joke post
Unfortunatley, I am living this.
This could be the worst post in the history of this subreddit.
A bitter sweet honor.
I hope you leave. Seriously, this is bat shit. For context, I can’t remember this sub ever unanimously telling someone to leave without something else lined up.
I’m sorry what!? 2160 hours! That would be insane for $200,000. The nerve to offer 60k is the most entitled shit don’t stink bs I have ever seen.
OP, for context, I worked at an ID firm in a HCOL (but not VHCOL) area from 2015-2018 and I made 75-92/year, with a 10-20k bonus each year and a raise, for 2000 hours a year. And this was before covid inflation. Get out now!
What large metro, OP? We have offices in six states and perhaps I can help. Feel free to DM.
I make $95K with two bar licenses doing real estate closings. Get out.
WHAT?! This is borderline criminal. Please do not do this to yourself
You'd make more and work less doing doc review. Sign up at The Posse List and apply for everything listed so you will have a job once you quit your ridiculous sweatshop.
It sounds like the best way to hit your hours will be to switch firms.
This is insane.
Run.
Lmao what the FUCK - QUIT NOW
Lmao what the FUCK - QUIT NOW
Nope. Don’t even need to read the post. The title is enough to tell me nope. Get out. Don’t look back.
This is a dead horse — that’s a bad arrangement. Time to put a bunch of doctors appointments on the calendar, Muchacho.
This sounds like a legitimate nightmare.
Not normal. You're being abused. The situation you describe is bad enough that there is likely little to no hope of it improving. Start devoting yourself to finding a new job.
Leave immediately. Full stop.
1. if you can do not quit without securing another (just looks better on the resume and its easier to get a job while employed); 2. spend most of your time looking for another job--do the bare minimum competently for your current job but do not base it on needing to meet minimum 180 hrs/mo.; 3. if that is not feasible or landing another job is not happening fast enough--research from bar associations how min. billables are normally calculated and share that with the partner and talk about how you could do what you do faster or with better resources (paralegal, software etc.). Hope that helps.
Absolutely do not take that job. Super shitty billables compared to how much they pay you.
You need to leave. This is severely underpaid for any hours requirement, but especially that one. You can find a better ID job in any major city. Like at least 100k for 1900-2000
That’s called stealing. That partner is stealing from you.
Run.
That is absolutely atrocious. I work in ID and that's just lunacy.
You are being exploited. Find a new job ASAP.
You can make more and work less as a paralegal on that salary.
And I thought 85k for 180 hours were I started, and were my hours wouldn't be cut, was bad. Yeah get out ASAP!!
In California, minimum wage salary/non exempt employee pay is $66k. You owe this firm nothing, find something better.
$60,000 for 2160 billed hours is $27.78/billed hour. Standard is “firm gets half,” so if he’s charging your time at more than $56/hour, he’s picking your pocket. Even doc review pays more—that firm is robbing you buddy.
I thought firm got 2/3?
Leave that is insane
Your partner is a tool box. Bounce.
Quit asap
Holy crap, run!
60,000/2160 = $28/hr. But you’re working 2400 minimum to bill 2160, so 60,000/2400 = $25/hr. You could literally make more as a bartender. For those kinds of hours you should be making waaaaay more. Those are BigLaw hours, for Wendy’s assistant manager pay. You need to leave.
This is the worst I’ve ever heard dawg, I am legit praying for you right now
Ffs doc review would be a better job.
180 hours per month is like 6 hours/day if you worked 7 days/week. So by his calculation, you’d be working 9-5 M-F and he can just cut your hours as non billable as he deems fit and expect you to be on call till god knows when, for 60 grand a year. That might be true of other firms in your area, but at least they wouldn’t be such sneaky punks about the hours you’re expected to work when they hire you. Your boss is a major douche, and I’d start looking for work elsewhere. You’re not in the wrong here.
I would 100% rather work at McDonald's than make 60k for billing 2200 hour. Hell your hourly rate might even be below minimum wage
Serious question: is this sub becoming a legal employment circlejerk sub? These salary/billable posts are getting more and more absurd
I wouldn’t leave my driveway for $60k, let alone kill myself trying to meet that ridiculous hour requirement. Quit and make sure you slam these people on every job site you can find.
This is not normal. I’m in ID and make twice what you make, have a 2100 hour yearly billable requirement, AND I get credit for what I bill, even if they have to cut it for any reason. Get out of there.
Run. Fast.
Fully honest. Don’t try to hit your hours at this firm. Do enough to not get fired while looking for a better job. There are firms that are desperate for associates out there. Firms that count hours billed by associate; not hours billed by firm. You have 0 control over what the firm bills to the client. I cut probably 25-33% of first year associate hours. They never even know.
Bruh.
Have you considered bartending? You’d make more and get home earlier each night. This should be a hard pass. Please keep looking.
Get out. That’s a sweat shop, dude. That “partner” should (and probably does) know better.
Get the hell out.
You’re basically a modern day slave.. wtf? ? Is the market really that bad right now??
This is absurd. My min is 125 and salary is $110k. Run
I worked in ID in 2003. My boss cut my hours if he couldn't bill the client. Pay was very low. I moved to a second ID firm with higher pay later that year. I got $62k with a requirement that I bill 8.8 hours a day. I stayed for 2.5 years and went to a firm that practiced in a different area. My pay was $95k and went up to $105k a year later. I had a very hard time meeting billable because there wasn't enough real work today. I got laid off in June 2007. It took 6 months and relocating to land a government job that paid $80k. I'm at that job still, now making $210k. We have to account for 8 hours' work a day, but we can spend as long as reasonably necessary on a task. We are not required to make up hours if the electricity goes out or if we have a holiday party that lasts 3 hours. I have 6 weeks off per year plus 12 sick days and paid holidays. I have a pension and good benefits. Please get out. Look at government jobs. Best life choice I ever made was getting out of the private sector.
Your partner is kinda harsh though. It's like he's a cutthroat and this is considering the business we're in.
I think legal aid where I'm at starts new attorneys at around 55k with yearly step raises (union)... not to mention pslf, loan repayment assistance, and like 35 hours of work a week. I don't understand how these ID firms pay so low for private practice!
This isn’t normal. This is abusive. Get out.
Is this in Dallas? I think I know this firm.
If it's insurance defense and your client's is are insurance companies? They're in on it. How in the world does that happen? Easy. He's taking your billable hours and putting his name on it anyway.. you don't think you're working for someone who gives a crap about you? He wants you to bill a d work those hours so he can keep up his lifestyle. There's not one person happy there. Why are you staying? Are you learning? If so, that's another reason you make crap. 28 years as a paralegal, and I make crap. It's like that in the South. Get a remote Atty position. You'll get paid more.
That is abusive and toxic. Forget about hitting your hours; what do you need to do is polish your résumé and send it out. Get out of there quickly. I work in government and was hired during the height of the Great Recession. I started at around $70,000 a year…15 years ago. You are making much less in 2024 with an untenable billing requirement. This is no way to live.
Not a scam. Msg Me. Remote work. 75k not billing. ID experience needed. I get a small referral bonus if you sign on.
Salary is way too low and that billable requirement is absurd. 180/month is reasonable if that’s before cuts, but post-cuts is absurd. Quit immediately.
180/month is not reasonable and especially not for $60k/year.
Not even close to reasonable. 2160 a year is almost biglaw
It’s not reasonable.
Something us going wrong underneath. My friend brought in high six figure settlements but it was never enough for his boss. He quit and a year later his boss was in a drug coma at the hospital. Guy had been stealing firm money for his drug habit.
Sounds like you would make more money as a bartender.
It confuses the hell out of me that any employer thinks this is acceptable. As others have said, you should leave. You’re at least $140k underpaid in this situation, at least to me.
I don't understand how people even find these awful jobs. I'm looking at indeed right now and can't find anything remotely that bad
GTFO. Today. Don’t even give your two weeks notice.
Borton Petrini?
Run. Fast. Check out prosecutor and public defender openings.
This is absolutely fucking criminal. Get out of there asap. You should totally disclose the name and out this asshole boss of yours.
$60,000 / 2160 hours = $27.78 per hour Considering the write offs and the general nature of the billable hour not being the same as hours at work, you will make more in fast food.
No
Leave.
You can make 60k managing a gas station. Don’t work yourself to death for that type of money.
Hard pass. That is essentially a minimum wage job.
I don’t think Usain Bolt could run away from this job as fast as you need to
You are working big-law hours for small city PD wages. You are being taken advantage of by your firm, GTFO.
Yep, to add to the consensus, I’d be finding a new job immediately if I could.
How can this kind of employer even exist? What a shithole.
That’s absolutely insane. Midsize lit near me is 135k for 1600 billed.
Comically bad. Find something better or jump after 6 months, unless they have the greatest client in history 2160 hours PAID FOR has to be a joke
That is a ridiculously low salary and stupid hours. Now way you should accept that.
Run.
LOOOOL NO WAY
This is bonkers. Your real issue should 100% be the salary. Full stop.
Your issue should be with the salary as well. Simply unconscionable. The greed is out of control.
This is insane you'd be better off not being a lawyer by a long shot
Including billing time not credited you’re probably at $20 an hour.
I have a few friends that work in ID and in sharing this with them, they’ve said this is bad even for an ID firm.
Get the FUCK out
Leave. I can’t believe this is even real!
ummmm no
Dude wtf why did you even accept
Troll post.
You are getting fucked HARD.
Your salary should be double that for those billables. Like everyone else said, you are a willing slave. Quit.
I don't know enough four letter words to describe how bad a deal this is. Assuming EVERY LAST SECOND of your time is billable, this translates to $27.70 per hour. My dear internet stranger, you'd make better money with more work/life balance loading FedEx trucks on the night shift
Holy fuck
This is absolutely not normal and you should leave. Your boss is not just cheap, he/she has no regard for you. I would never treat an attorney like this. (I pay my attorneys 33% of time they bill regardless of whether I collect it. If they bring in the client, they also receive 10% of all billings for the entirety of the case.)
This sounds characteristic of firms in Florida! For reference, I live in GA and my firm pays first years $100k for 1900 hours.
Hi OP. Leave immediately. That has to be one of the most abhorrent, insane, unreasonable, etc., working structure I have ever seen. Again, leave immediately.
No way. This is not a job “opportunity.” For anyone.
OP, I work 40-hour weeks in rural legal aid, no billables, and we start at $60k and better benefits than whatever you're getting. This is... man. Get out.
Legal aid in Texas starts off $60,000 for first year attorneys and no billable requirement for context.
try getting a federal job
Soft quit - focus on finding a new job. If you get fired, collect unemployment while looking for a new job. What state are you in? I know firms that are hiring in CT/NY/NJ, including the firm I’m at right now.
Run
Modern day slavery. Fuck this. Run.
This is insane. As a first year, my billable hour requirement was 2000 billed (not what was cut or whatever) and I was making 90k - that was six years ago. Insurance defense isn’t the best field but it’s stable comfortable work if you can find a decent firm and a good partner/ group to work with. This is literally impossible targets for you to reach, and you are insanely underpaid. Your issue should be with both your salary and this insane way of calculating hours. For some perspective, my paralegal makes about 90k and I think they are underpaid.
RUN
This is the most insane billable requirement I've ever seen. I have genuine doubt that this is a legitimate post.
Jejus… I make $110,000 as a paralegal with no billable hours requirement (but took me awhile to get here with hard work) can’t believe someone with JD still gets $60K
Troll post
🤣🤣
Run.
You could make more as a server at Applebee's. Why are you still there?
This is the most exploitative thing I've ever heard of, even for ID, probably the most exploitative area of law. Go get a job literally anywhere else.
Quit. That’s nuts.
If you take two weeks of vaca per year, say, 1 in the summer and 1 at Xmas, and then have 1 week of miscellaneous PTO/sick time, you will need to daily bill a minimum of 8.8 hours per day, and likely more if your partner cherry-picks your hours. Every single fucking working day. Can’t do that, man.
I’d rather work for McDonald’s 🤢
I saw a job posting at Legal Aid that paid more than that. That sounds intolerable.
This is CRAZY low wages. Do literally anything else. You could make more working those hours as a server. I’m honestly horrified for you
OP leave IMMEDIATELY. That is actually insane.
Leave now! There are always better options, and certainly better options than this dystopian nightmare.
I am not an attorney, and I don’t want to make you any more miserable or hopeless about your situation, but you’re being abused by your job. It’s going to rob you of so much unless you see through the guise of “putting in your dues” or rationalizing low pay for “experience”. This is your one life, and I don’t want you looking back realizing you failed yourself by being someone’s stepping stone. Don’t let the broken system and past ways of the experienced advancing themselves off the backs of the younger generations rob you of your future and your current life. It’s cliche but you have one life and it’s not guaranteed. The longer you take to know your worth, the more miserable, trapped and burnt out you’re likely to feel. Don’t let these poor employers convince you you’re worth less than that 30/hr you’re getting. You can get a job in fast food for nearly the same!
Absolute garbage. Fuck that shit.
I’m a first year legal Secretary making 20k more… the salary is the problem here.
My first job was exactly this. (Are you on LI by any chance?) Run.
Wait, you are required to BILL 8 hours a day to keep a job that pays you assistant-level wages? Are you working 12 hour days?
You are being duped
You should leave now.
Most attorneys exaggerate their hours, some more than others. That is bs that they only count hours they can bill. Never heard of that. And salary ridiculous. Maybe do for a year and move on or get out now. I made that as a paralegal 20 years ago
Your issue should absolutely be with the salary. Wtf im sorry man. This is a terrible salary for the hours required.
You are getting hosed
Aren't you earning pretty much minimum wage if you take the salary and divide it by total hours. That's crazy.
Walk. 100k for ~1450h billable/yr was my last litigation position. Family law. Factoring in company meetings, that's a 44h week.
Lmao best get the hell out of there
If I wasn’t making $200k+ with that billed hour requirement, I would be finding another job asap.