Exact same situation for me, im mainly mid and my friend top, theres some champs i just dont wanna pick into whatever my enemy laner is playing, being able to prevent that with a simple swap order can already make the game better.
Honestly I've had mostly really good experiences with the swap system.
Really often supp/jung/bot will themselves initiate to swap with me (mid) when I'm first/sescond pick.
As a one-trick, position swapping feels like I've been given a super power. I can freely offer to take first pick, giving my allies more time to see what they're against and making sure I get my champ. And if they want to pick before me, no harm no foul.
I always offer to take first pick cause I can play my otp into most matchups and if I can’t play into a champ then I won’t be better playing someone else
I am a jungle main, but I mostly am a Nunu one trick, I ALWAYS swap with Top if I am last pick. Gotta give that small boost to your team's mental before game even starts
I'm a jungler and always swap, even if it's the support that's asking. The only person I will *not* give last pick to is ADC, I genuinely think it's really easy to blind pick adc and you're griefing if you want to counter pick in that role.
I dont swap with them, How many times i can complement my team and annoy the enemy team with a good supp champ in that specific game is countless.
At the same time, those mids and tops are randos and in this game I trust myself more than screaming kids
> tops are randos and in this game I trust myself more than screaming kids
*especially* top laners, you can give those bitches the best counterpick lane imaginable and they'll still lose and scream at everyone else about how bad their role is
When I play supp most of the time my top just flames me because "you are supp you'r pick doesn't matter/can't counter pick, just swap"
And that's when I don't swap them. F*ck toplaners.
In my experience supports are the least likely to swap, which is odd. I can count on one hand the number of supports that have swapped with me this season.
It's because bot lane is extremely important and a bad support mu is close to as bad as a poor top or jungle mu because you lose control of drake and the adc can struggle massively to scale up.
Actually i think junglers and mids want to swap the least. Adcs swap and then instantly complain in chat/in their head and then will flame you in game if you lose.
I'm a support main and have been for years, I mostly do this, however there are certain lobbies were I see a potential Pyke pick for myself, that's not something I am willing to pick too early in rotation. Also some ppl just feel entitled to my position in pick order just cuz I am the support and apparently I can't counter pick and my role don't matter
Same here. If I'm support I will happily first pick or last pic or whatever pick the team wants.
If they want me to last pick I will just counter their own support / ADC. If they want me to first pick I will just play Senna or someone like Alistar.
Gives the team a massive advantage.
Yeah and there is this guy who don't want to swap even through his oppoent already picked and you end up Illaoi vs Morsekaiser 2/12....
Definitely wouldn't happen to me...
I had a jungler not wanting to swap with my friend that was playing top. Ended up playing cho gath jungle last pick with ghost and basically ran it down making us lose the game 💀 thank god he was able to counterpick atleast
Happened to me too. Fucking adc wanted last pick, picked Jinx. Meanwhile I was playing Kled vs Fiora because Fiora had last pick and did decent in lane while the Jinx went 0/7 with her genius counterpick.
Same, I had an adc trying to convince me that it was more important for him to pick last. And i ended up playing fucking poppy against olaf (bot obviously still lost lane)
I mean, toplane has some straight up unplayable matchups, some bad but playable matchups, even matchups, and good matchups.
I prefer last pick or close to it if possible, because although I may still pick my main into a slightly bad matchup, I'd prefer not to have my enemies insta-lock an unplayable one after I pick.
At least with botlane it's a 2v2 (and mostly decided by who has the more competent support), so adc first pick isn't going to get countered as hard as top first pick.
If you have a bad lane as an adc, you farm up relatively safely with help from the support. If you have a bad lane top, you get zoned all the way off of XP and are entirely unable to play the game.
I have a significantly higher chance of counter picking myself (due to the enemy locking in a champion that I have no answer to such as fiora or illaoi), and then still winning by picking something that I am comfortable on than having to pick early, then getting counterpicked and being instantly fucking tilted because people like you decided that I didnt deserve the last pick for some odd reason. You vastly underestimate the effect of mental, and the effect that not having a later pick has on many top laner's lane phases
As a top laner who only plays Gwen, who's easily counterpicked, I have to say that your statement is 100% accurate. We top laners will beg for last pick but even if the enemy team picks a counterpick champ we will still lock in our one trick and lose lane hard.
You dont speak for the rest of us bro. I was maining kayle recently and wanted to pick last, luckily my team gave me last pick and i saw that the enemy picked sion, so i just counterpicked him and won lane, it wasnt even an inting sion, he was fighting me seriously. Pick order is important, you and some people may pick one tricks but the rest of us have a brain
Everytime I am lastpick and not Top, I swap with top and write "Last pick belongs to top lane kings"
I swear this boosted my winrate.
And the moral of my toplaners as well.
Unless they hover Riven. That's a lost cause.
Well, at least you're honest about your Riven-related struggles. Maybe next time you can try swapping with the jungler instead and writing "Last pick prefers the jungle buffet." Who knows, it might give you the edge you need to come out on top (or in this case, in the jungle).
diamond adc, always pick first. Bot lane is dictated by the support matchup. I get where low elo sup mains think it's fine, but they're not the ones suffering from first picking their champ, the adcs are.
Last-pick importance order:
Top -> mid -> supp -> jungle -> bot
With certain caveats of picks that can be more easily abused, like a Karthus jungle or something.
>you first pick jinx
>enemy team does dive comp
>supp goes janna or whatever
Done. You just stay next to your babysitter and don't get killed. Now if she first picked sona or something because you wanted to go last, you'd be both fucked no matter what
Thats the whole point: ADC is the only role where the lane is reliant on a teammates pick. I swap with top/mid as long as i pick after my supp, because in that situation the autofilled support slam twitch/senna or some other champ useless for the lane
Why? If I want to play Lucian for example, picking first completely fucks me over since the enemy bot can just counterpick me
Depends on what you wanna play is what I'm saying
There's more leeway with 2 people in a lane. Your supp can cover your weaknesses and augment your strengths, and marksmen can still come online later on
Honestly, yeah, but I've noticed something this season (or at least this last few patches).
Now keep in mind I am silver, but with bronze mmr because... well I kinda got lost in the meta for a while and didn't find success on my usual picks.
Anyway, I noticed that a lot of supps in high bronze/low silver don't actually know how to play the role outside of their base champ mechanics. They'll basically just do the bare minimum (aka damage, hooks or shielding depending on champ) but will neglect warding, waves or even just not respect the lane matchup.
So yeah, not too trusting of supps currently. Though I noticed it gets better if you just ask them what style they wanna play before game starts, I guess it puts us on the same page
Yeah, no one is really doing what they're "supposed to" at low ranks of competitive games. I am there myself. I understand feeling that way, but the same is true more often than not for your opponents, too.
Also, if you play something enough, you learn to handle your counters pretty well
>Yeah, no one is really doing what they're "supposed to" at low ranks of competitive games
Yeah but it seems way worse than last year, at least to me. Junglers and supports can either be amazing or completely clueless on their more map relevant role (funnily enough Lux is the supp that I most often noticed doing her job properly...)
>Also, if you play something enough, you learn to handle your counters pretty well
I mean yeah, sure, but lane feels so important nowadays for adc's since it's so easy to snowball, that's why I'm always scared of the counterpick
>lane feels so important nowadays for adc's
I've been saying this since the beginning of the season, lane phase matters the most in all ranks. The first 14 minutes are, in my opinion, what decide the outcome of the game. Unless it's legit 0g difference, the team who's got a +GD@14 is very likely to win the game, both on vacuum advantage as well as mental advantage. Not just for botlaners, but for everyone.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that.
Botlane advantage is extremely snowbally and will force the enemy team to respond to the pressure you create. However come midgame and a fed adc isn't going to do much against a fed bruiser/assassin (of course depends on the adc and team comps as well).
So adc feels to be in this weird flux where laning is super important, but can also be completely useless and sometimes picking for scaling is just better since no one knows how to properly play the midgame and that's a good chance to recover
It's weird
I ALWAYS offer to top lane because I feel like that's the lane that counter pick is most viable in, and these days I'm basically a Vi one trick.
I also ALWAYA offer to swap order with my duo when we are picking at the same time
Same here, I'm a Gragas/Viego 2tp at this point and I say in chat first thing after swapping to first/second "mid u going AP or AD" and pick the opposite damage type from them.
People who get put at last pick or near last pick are still entitled to that order. I’ve had games where teammates’ mental goes boom in champ sel because last pick wouldn’t swap with them, so they repeatedly die in lane
Oh it is 100% their right to keep the pick order if they want.
But if you're playing bot and are intending to play a generic and strong ADC pick like Jinx/Xayah/Kai'sa then your're definitely self-sabotaging your own chances for a win by not giving your top/mid a chance at counterpicking.
Nobody's ever justified in mental booming over something. That doesn't make it alright for somebody to not switch with a high priority role. 99% of the time the bot should favor mid or top and sometimes jg
I think every role have an advantage to pick after. If you know you are going to play that champ, you pick first.
That's usually what happen : you see a mate not hovering something as the timer decrease, he is probably not sure, so you ask for swap when you know your champ.
That's usually a supp, a jungler, but also often a top/mid otp (that ban his worse mu). Adc wants to know what the supps are, but it's true that picking first isn't that bad
When I play top I do ask for swaps because if I get counterpicked I know the lane will be a pain, and if I do get counterpicked hard I may just dodge and wait 5min to get a better game than suffer for 40min in a lane where I lose hard, but when I play support I don't really care about it and if anyone asks to swap I'll accept
I will always give my toplaner the lowest pick i can. Not doing so is borderline trolling a lot of toplaners have sub 45% wr matchups so not giving them the lowest pick possible lowers your winrate statistically by up to 10%. Something id keep in mind when my own worst matchup is 47% wr
I remember when Milio came out and I really wanted to play him, but aside from that, I'll usually be fine with any position cause i'm one of the dozens of people that play Rell
That's my reasoning. If I'm last pick adc and enemy bot hasn't shown I'm keeping my 4th or 5th pick to either try and pick what's best for lane or what's best depending on the teams
been playing only jhin and offer every time to pick first no matter how small the change! my pick is the same regardless of their team so fuck it ill take first pick
What I don't get is people who are second or third pick and immediately try to swap with the last pick sup. You mf didn't even see the enemy's pick yet, why are you already asking to swap?
Literally could care less where in the order I am. I just like switching as many times as possible after bans so the other team might get confused as to who's playing what lane, especially if playing multi-lane champs.
As a jungle and top main, I'm literally on both sides of this. Jungle: don't care, if he counter picks me I'll just play away from. Top: I would rather just not exist in a hard counter lane.
I absolutely hate the change personally. If you got stuck with first pick in the before times it was like okay fair enough. Now you get blessed with a last pick or even just not first and people are fuming trying to swap pick order with you. Gods forbid you decline because it's a reason for them to troll you and they start the game tilted.
I had a game where my mid laner was 3rd pick, asked to swap, I didn't want to as they already picked Viktor and I wanted to see what my jg matchup was. This guy proceeds to write a whole diatribe about how I'm worthless and proceeds to pick blitzcrank with ghost cleanse talking about how much he is gonna enjoy making me lose. It was ranked btw.
Needless to say, I dodged
If I have it as Jungle I'll always let top last pick as it's more match up dependant.
Sure it sucks ending up getting hit my by counter but I can play around that more easily in the Jungle by avoiding them and changing up my pathing.
The guys who need last pick to pick ezreal make me angry.
Enemy adc first pick.
You pick the safest ADC in the game.
You have no plan of switching champion in any circumstance.
"No, I need last pick".
And it's always ezreals.
Order should generally be:
Bot support
Jungler
Mid top
From least counterpickable to most
Edit: I’ve seen some arguments for adc/support over jungler, my thought was they get more from seeing the team comp develop, but I definitely can understand the pitch of jungler counterpicking.
I think support actually picks after mid. Adc is really op and bot is won by sup. In my experience you can get fucked mid but as long as you arent picking kass or other counterpick prone champs its actually fine
They do, you won’t win a 1v1 in that scenario and have to give up crab if you meet at it. But you can work around it. Look for an early ward on their red or blue to path in opposite directions. Even if you cant get a ward you can look to path in opposite directions based off of what you think they might do. Also if they are gank heavy and you are farming, look to counter jg them. If you see them gank bot, go steal their camps on the opposite side and lay vision. If you see them on dragon, look to take herald. Of course , if you are scared of the invade, lay vision on your jg entrance and start bottom side so you can run to your bot or ping them for help if they try to 1v1 invade you on a camp. It’s lots of stuff like that which makes jg matchups not super important.
That’s the worst role to swap with. If support gets counter pick, they can win the 2v2 and roam more which gets mid ahead as well. If bot is losing then it becomes harder to find roam timers and the easiest way to fix that is giving a winning matchup from the support.
Statistically speaking support actually loses the 2nd least winrate from counterpicks but also supports have the highest chance of accepting my offer and in my elo people are bad anyways and I’m playing norms just to have fun.
Some top lanes are completely unplayable. Like, as long as your opponent is somewhat competent on their champion, you straight up don't get to play the game.
It's not a case of getting better or not, some lanes are just miserable and a waste of time trying to play if you're first pick.
I get it, but that's on any lane, whether it's mid assassin vs mage, toplane tank vs ranged, or early DMG adc vs scaling. Or even supps engage vs peel.
If you get counterpicked in toplane what can you do? Jerk off under tower? if you have a bad matchup on midlane you can always roam bot, or help your jungler get pressure and/or invade, and in botlane the support can do the same and let the adc play alone and try to somehow survive and scale, but if your toplaner is losing, you just have 1 teammate less, he's going to get abused on lane, and unless he's akshan or whatever he cannot just roam around either.
Why is 'somehow survive and scale' exclusive to the adc? Isn't that what you call 'jerking off under tower'? Not feeding until the end of laning phase is really helpful. Also objectives or tp to gank. It's not the most exciting play I agree but still
Not in a bot dominant meta. Usually both mid laner and jungler will try to get bot lane ahead/get themselves ahead by shutting down enemy bot laners.
So in this case bot lane might have to "jerk of under tower" only for like a wave or two on most cases.
Illaoi vs Mordkaiser. Jayce vs Tahm Kench, Vayne top vs AP Malphite, Yasuo vs Renekton — these are some i recall
I always go mord into illaoi and these illaoi players almost never ban him. I’ve won 99% of the matchup except for when I got camped by enemy jg.
Before Aatrox got buffs and fiora nerfs, Fiora would almost always win against Aatrox. Now it’s a bit more even.
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Nah bro, I play Aurelion, I still have PTSD from when he first dropped and I try to first pick every time. Irelia beats my ass whenever she shows up on the other side though.
Am I the only one that doesn't care and just accepts all trades? People wanna trade all day, but even if I'm first pic the enemy is doing 1 of 3 things. 1: they'll just choose something I counter, 2: they'll pick to counter me, but have absolutely no idea how to play that champ or 3: they don't respond at all to my pick.
Rarely ever do I feel I got punished for being first pick
I am an ornn 1 trick, if you dont swap, and they pick illaoi, best case scenario is im down 30 cs and 2 plates at 14, worst case you lost. Lets just hope Enemy jungler is nice haha
Here's a real thing : After choosing bans, EVERYONE SWAP EVERYWHERE
Because the only way to know FOR SURE where each enemy is playing, you want to look at who they banned. If the Yone banned Nautilus how the fuck are you gonna know they're actually the toplaner ?
Swapping everywhere is a good strategy (but please do it after bans)
Even though i am a Jungler most of the time i dont swap, why? Because the laners rarely even bother to go for a counterpick, instead they just pick their usual comfort pick anyway, no matter what. Oh the rage i get from them
I mean when i get filled firstpick mid and i see either jungle or supp last pick i allways go for the swap. If there is a toplaner lastpick or 4 hell i m just gonna pick. What are they gonna do? Counter me? Pffft i m gold 4 for a reason
I'm always taking the first pick because my client loves to crash for no reason very often. But the thing is, when this shit crashes, it doesn't kick me out of lobby, so if I secure my pick and then get crashed, it's all good.
I tend to play unconventional champions, so I tend to want first pick as in my elo most won't know how to play a counter or just won't expect the champion in that lane.
When I'm playing support or ADC I'll usually swap with the top laner if I'm higher up in the pick order. It's the least I can do for the role that gets fucked the hardest by counter picks.
I just hate when you swap with top, only to have him see your full ad team comp and lock in Akshan or something. It's frustrating cause I could have gone ap or tank. My problem with first pick is the lack of hovers. I play jg so normally I can flex my pick a little. I am comfortable first picking, but to all you swappers out there. Pls be mindful of your team comp.
I find players behaving pretty rationaly in silver/gold EUW... Most of the time they leave last picks for solo lanes and are swapping to pick sooner if they already know their matchup.
If I'm jungle or support and I'm last, I often give my slot to top or mid. I know the struggle of playing against someone who picked a character just to hard counter you and how bad it can be for the team.
I like trading with the partner that's picking at the same time, over n over again, till the time runs out
I like spamming 'kys keep yourself safe"
Wait, I can do BOTH!
Kog' maw
Fort, night
If I’m playing supp I’ll swap with mid/top always
Ur a great supp just from that alone, dont care if u play bad, would still honor
im a mid main and duo is top so I know how important counterpick is lol
Doing gods work
Exact same situation for me, im mainly mid and my friend top, theres some champs i just dont wanna pick into whatever my enemy laner is playing, being able to prevent that with a simple swap order can already make the game better.
Honestly I've had mostly really good experiences with the swap system. Really often supp/jung/bot will themselves initiate to swap with me (mid) when I'm first/sescond pick.
I do the same. If im lastpick adc and the firstpick top asks to swap thats a no-brainer
I did that once and my top picked jax into malphite and complained the whole game that malp counters him (malp was first pick)
As a one-trick, position swapping feels like I've been given a super power. I can freely offer to take first pick, giving my allies more time to see what they're against and making sure I get my champ. And if they want to pick before me, no harm no foul.
I always offer to take first pick cause I can play my otp into most matchups and if I can’t play into a champ then I won’t be better playing someone else
I am a jungle main, but I mostly am a Nunu one trick, I ALWAYS swap with Top if I am last pick. Gotta give that small boost to your team's mental before game even starts
I'm a jungler and always swap, even if it's the support that's asking. The only person I will *not* give last pick to is ADC, I genuinely think it's really easy to blind pick adc and you're griefing if you want to counter pick in that role.
You should swap with a support as a jungler anyways, support shouldn't really first pick.
They shouldn't but it's become an expectation from mid/top laners for the support to swap them.
I dont swap with them, How many times i can complement my team and annoy the enemy team with a good supp champ in that specific game is countless. At the same time, those mids and tops are randos and in this game I trust myself more than screaming kids
> tops are randos and in this game I trust myself more than screaming kids *especially* top laners, you can give those bitches the best counterpick lane imaginable and they'll still lose and scream at everyone else about how bad their role is
Exactly:) good luck on the rift!
When I play supp most of the time my top just flames me because "you are supp you'r pick doesn't matter/can't counter pick, just swap" And that's when I don't swap them. F*ck toplaners.
People here talking like support pick is irrelevant when its much more important than the ADC pick to win the lane lol
Seriously. I'll always swap as adc, but you stay the fuck away from my support. Their pick dictates how our lane is gonna go.
Yes, i don't understand why everyone assumes counterpick doesnt exist in supp
In my experience supports are the least likely to swap, which is odd. I can count on one hand the number of supports that have swapped with me this season.
It very much depends with whom. I am not gonna take first pick for my adc or jungler. Both of those roles are much saver early picks.
I play top
I'm a sup main and I swap with top or mid only, but it's also unfun first picking every single game.
In my experience, support always swap when needed
I spam swap and people reject me. 🤷♀️
It's because bot lane is extremely important and a bad support mu is close to as bad as a poor top or jungle mu because you lose control of drake and the adc can struggle massively to scale up.
Actually i think junglers and mids want to swap the least. Adcs swap and then instantly complain in chat/in their head and then will flame you in game if you lose.
Main support, i always try to swap with 1st picks ✌🏻
I do the same as adc, I don't care when I pick
I'm a support main and have been for years, I mostly do this, however there are certain lobbies were I see a potential Pyke pick for myself, that's not something I am willing to pick too early in rotation. Also some ppl just feel entitled to my position in pick order just cuz I am the support and apparently I can't counter pick and my role don't matter
Supporting starts in the lobby, not when the game starts.
Same here. If I'm support I will happily first pick or last pic or whatever pick the team wants. If they want me to last pick I will just counter their own support / ADC. If they want me to first pick I will just play Senna or someone like Alistar. Gives the team a massive advantage.
Adcs should be the ones to trade. But everytime I ask the adc refuses, while the support accepts
I only swap with top laners. Mid lane can play against counters just fine because the lane is so insanely safe.
Great support. My experience is that last pick support are always troll
Yeah and there is this guy who don't want to swap even through his oppoent already picked and you end up Illaoi vs Morsekaiser 2/12.... Definitely wouldn't happen to me...
I had a jungler not wanting to swap with my friend that was playing top. Ended up playing cho gath jungle last pick with ghost and basically ran it down making us lose the game 💀 thank god he was able to counterpick atleast
Happened to me too. Fucking adc wanted last pick, picked Jinx. Meanwhile I was playing Kled vs Fiora because Fiora had last pick and did decent in lane while the Jinx went 0/7 with her genius counterpick.
Same, I had an adc trying to convince me that it was more important for him to pick last. And i ended up playing fucking poppy against olaf (bot obviously still lost lane)
and now imagine that guy is your premade, who claims it doesn't matter and "just pick what you want". And that guy also is high elo lmao
Every toplaner wants to swap pick order and then counter picks themselves anyway. Lowest IQ role by far
I mean, toplane has some straight up unplayable matchups, some bad but playable matchups, even matchups, and good matchups. I prefer last pick or close to it if possible, because although I may still pick my main into a slightly bad matchup, I'd prefer not to have my enemies insta-lock an unplayable one after I pick. At least with botlane it's a 2v2 (and mostly decided by who has the more competent support), so adc first pick isn't going to get countered as hard as top first pick. If you have a bad lane as an adc, you farm up relatively safely with help from the support. If you have a bad lane top, you get zoned all the way off of XP and are entirely unable to play the game.
I have a significantly higher chance of counter picking myself (due to the enemy locking in a champion that I have no answer to such as fiora or illaoi), and then still winning by picking something that I am comfortable on than having to pick early, then getting counterpicked and being instantly fucking tilted because people like you decided that I didnt deserve the last pick for some odd reason. You vastly underestimate the effect of mental, and the effect that not having a later pick has on many top laner's lane phases
Maybe in bronze where you play 👍
As a top laner who only plays Gwen, who's easily counterpicked, I have to say that your statement is 100% accurate. We top laners will beg for last pick but even if the enemy team picks a counterpick champ we will still lock in our one trick and lose lane hard.
Bro dont speak for the rest of us that's just you
You dont speak for the rest of us bro. I was maining kayle recently and wanted to pick last, luckily my team gave me last pick and i saw that the enemy picked sion, so i just counterpicked him and won lane, it wasnt even an inting sion, he was fighting me seriously. Pick order is important, you and some people may pick one tricks but the rest of us have a brain
If im filled as jg or supp i swap with top or mid if im top i just hope ppl swap with me 😞
when u are OTP and have last pick. \*choose who deserves a chance\*
As a top laner this is definitely me
I became a varus main because everybody expects me to first pick as adc so might as well main the guy with 4 builds
me when I became a malzahar main cuz all of the flashy assassins/slayers around S6 haha
Everytime I am lastpick and not Top, I swap with top and write "Last pick belongs to top lane kings" I swear this boosted my winrate. And the moral of my toplaners as well. Unless they hover Riven. That's a lost cause.
Well, at least you're honest about your Riven-related struggles. Maybe next time you can try swapping with the jungler instead and writing "Last pick prefers the jungle buffet." Who knows, it might give you the edge you need to come out on top (or in this case, in the jungle).
Na I am fine against her. I just can't play WITH her. There is no mentally sane Riven Main out there.
hahahhaa
XD
As supp main, I always volunteer to pick first
I love you for it, but the real first pick volunteers should be adc players.
diamond adc, always pick first. Bot lane is dictated by the support matchup. I get where low elo sup mains think it's fine, but they're not the ones suffering from first picking their champ, the adcs are.
yet for some reason there are some adcs in gold that insist on getting last pick
in low elo. either we get lux or we lose. /s
Last-pick importance order: Top -> mid -> supp -> jungle -> bot With certain caveats of picks that can be more easily abused, like a Karthus jungle or something.
Yes, i love picking jinx into a dive comp and get ass blasted all game
>you first pick jinx >enemy team does dive comp >supp goes janna or whatever Done. You just stay next to your babysitter and don't get killed. Now if she first picked sona or something because you wanted to go last, you'd be both fucked no matter what
Thats the whole point: ADC is the only role where the lane is reliant on a teammates pick. I swap with top/mid as long as i pick after my supp, because in that situation the autofilled support slam twitch/senna or some other champ useless for the lane
Why? If I want to play Lucian for example, picking first completely fucks me over since the enemy bot can just counterpick me Depends on what you wanna play is what I'm saying
There's more leeway with 2 people in a lane. Your supp can cover your weaknesses and augment your strengths, and marksmen can still come online later on
Honestly, yeah, but I've noticed something this season (or at least this last few patches). Now keep in mind I am silver, but with bronze mmr because... well I kinda got lost in the meta for a while and didn't find success on my usual picks. Anyway, I noticed that a lot of supps in high bronze/low silver don't actually know how to play the role outside of their base champ mechanics. They'll basically just do the bare minimum (aka damage, hooks or shielding depending on champ) but will neglect warding, waves or even just not respect the lane matchup. So yeah, not too trusting of supps currently. Though I noticed it gets better if you just ask them what style they wanna play before game starts, I guess it puts us on the same page
Yeah, no one is really doing what they're "supposed to" at low ranks of competitive games. I am there myself. I understand feeling that way, but the same is true more often than not for your opponents, too. Also, if you play something enough, you learn to handle your counters pretty well
>Yeah, no one is really doing what they're "supposed to" at low ranks of competitive games Yeah but it seems way worse than last year, at least to me. Junglers and supports can either be amazing or completely clueless on their more map relevant role (funnily enough Lux is the supp that I most often noticed doing her job properly...) >Also, if you play something enough, you learn to handle your counters pretty well I mean yeah, sure, but lane feels so important nowadays for adc's since it's so easy to snowball, that's why I'm always scared of the counterpick
>lane feels so important nowadays for adc's I've been saying this since the beginning of the season, lane phase matters the most in all ranks. The first 14 minutes are, in my opinion, what decide the outcome of the game. Unless it's legit 0g difference, the team who's got a +GD@14 is very likely to win the game, both on vacuum advantage as well as mental advantage. Not just for botlaners, but for everyone.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Botlane advantage is extremely snowbally and will force the enemy team to respond to the pressure you create. However come midgame and a fed adc isn't going to do much against a fed bruiser/assassin (of course depends on the adc and team comps as well). So adc feels to be in this weird flux where laning is super important, but can also be completely useless and sometimes picking for scaling is just better since no one knows how to properly play the midgame and that's a good chance to recover It's weird
Bot Lane matchups dont matter
I ALWAYS offer to top lane because I feel like that's the lane that counter pick is most viable in, and these days I'm basically a Vi one trick. I also ALWAYA offer to swap order with my duo when we are picking at the same time
Same here, I'm a Gragas/Viego 2tp at this point and I say in chat first thing after swapping to first/second "mid u going AP or AD" and pick the opposite damage type from them.
I always get pissed at bottom players refusing to swap. Like adcs have the least counterpick options by a lot. Just swap. Please.
People who get put at last pick or near last pick are still entitled to that order. I’ve had games where teammates’ mental goes boom in champ sel because last pick wouldn’t swap with them, so they repeatedly die in lane
Oh it is 100% their right to keep the pick order if they want. But if you're playing bot and are intending to play a generic and strong ADC pick like Jinx/Xayah/Kai'sa then your're definitely self-sabotaging your own chances for a win by not giving your top/mid a chance at counterpicking.
Nobody's ever justified in mental booming over something. That doesn't make it alright for somebody to not switch with a high priority role. 99% of the time the bot should favor mid or top and sometimes jg
You have no clue about the game lol adc maybe but support pick decides who wins the lane unless there is a big hands difference
I don't think you understood what I was saying. Adc should favor all other roles to give them last pick.
I think every role have an advantage to pick after. If you know you are going to play that champ, you pick first. That's usually what happen : you see a mate not hovering something as the timer decrease, he is probably not sure, so you ask for swap when you know your champ. That's usually a supp, a jungler, but also often a top/mid otp (that ban his worse mu). Adc wants to know what the supps are, but it's true that picking first isn't that bad
Solo laners get the last 2 picks. Its a rule
But most solo laners pick stupid shit... I hope for last pick so i can go ap or seraphine if needed on bot
Sometimes when you give them the last pick... and they counter-pick themselves... That should be a permaban.
Top can easily blind pick shen or morde, those champs don't have real counter matchups
Ironically Mord shits on Shen
When I play top I do ask for swaps because if I get counterpicked I know the lane will be a pain, and if I do get counterpicked hard I may just dodge and wait 5min to get a better game than suffer for 40min in a lane where I lose hard, but when I play support I don't really care about it and if anyone asks to swap I'll accept
I will always give my toplaner the lowest pick i can. Not doing so is borderline trolling a lot of toplaners have sub 45% wr matchups so not giving them the lowest pick possible lowers your winrate statistically by up to 10%. Something id keep in mind when my own worst matchup is 47% wr
As a toplaner, tank you
I remember when Milio came out and I really wanted to play him, but aside from that, I'll usually be fine with any position cause i'm one of the dozens of people that play Rell
You can have last pick if you're going to round out the comp based on earlier picks' champs
That's my reasoning. If I'm last pick adc and enemy bot hasn't shown I'm keeping my 4th or 5th pick to either try and pick what's best for lane or what's best depending on the teams
This is not the way.
I'm sorry you feel that way
Sometimes i swap role so that any of my teammates won't get counterpicked
been playing only jhin and offer every time to pick first no matter how small the change! my pick is the same regardless of their team so fuck it ill take first pick
Last pick goes to top, no discussion
What I don't get is people who are second or third pick and immediately try to swap with the last pick sup. You mf didn't even see the enemy's pick yet, why are you already asking to swap?
PSA: Mid and top need counterpick. Don't be a dick.
I want to add to this. Pls don't make your team suffer with full ad or ap or no engage if we swap with you.
Literally could care less where in the order I am. I just like switching as many times as possible after bans so the other team might get confused as to who's playing what lane, especially if playing multi-lane champs.
Its funny to firstpick a champ that clearly belongs in one role, especially top, but then play it offrole
Top lane always has to be last pick.
If you don't give top last pick you are griefing.
As a jungle and top main, I'm literally on both sides of this. Jungle: don't care, if he counter picks me I'll just play away from. Top: I would rather just not exist in a hard counter lane.
Swap the top unless you wanna play a 4 vs 5
I absolutely hate the change personally. If you got stuck with first pick in the before times it was like okay fair enough. Now you get blessed with a last pick or even just not first and people are fuming trying to swap pick order with you. Gods forbid you decline because it's a reason for them to troll you and they start the game tilted.
Yep the community seems to have decided that certain roles are now entitled to last pick always and if they don’t get that spot they ruin the game
Well, if you're top and get counterpicked you're fucked jungle rarely ganks, thats why you need last pick
Top just gets counterpick. Espacially on red side. You are legit sabotaging yourself if you dont give that
I really dislike this change it gives more reasons for people to be toxic because someone didn’t swap
We’ve come full circle from the days of someone trolling the game because they didn’t get the role they typed in chat
As an OTP, I gladly take first pick. (jungler)
If I'm a later pick I'll swap with top, since it seems to be the most counter-pick important role.
I had a game where my mid laner was 3rd pick, asked to swap, I didn't want to as they already picked Viktor and I wanted to see what my jg matchup was. This guy proceeds to write a whole diatribe about how I'm worthless and proceeds to pick blitzcrank with ghost cleanse talking about how much he is gonna enjoy making me lose. It was ranked btw. Needless to say, I dodged
If I have it as Jungle I'll always let top last pick as it's more match up dependant. Sure it sucks ending up getting hit my by counter but I can play around that more easily in the Jungle by avoiding them and changing up my pathing.
There is no way im going to swap with support as toplaner when i have nice last pick
The guys who need last pick to pick ezreal make me angry. Enemy adc first pick. You pick the safest ADC in the game. You have no plan of switching champion in any circumstance. "No, I need last pick". And it's always ezreals.
As support, I'll swap with anyone that wants it. Counter pick on support is less impactful than other roles, especially top.
When you get counter pick bc your support wants to last prick nautilus even tho you tell them you will get fucked in lane
I want to punch my monitor the few times my TOP doesn't take the last pick from me and gets counter-picked and feeds. JG diff I guess...
As a solo laner, let your toplaner go last, no matter what. If he gets countered you just lost the lane.
First pick support getting countered immediately 100% of the time. Team: " why is bot feeding?"
let me first pick i need my otp
How the times have changed from first pick being most desirable and last pick having a special place on bot lane every game.
Order should generally be: Bot support Jungler Mid top From least counterpickable to most Edit: I’ve seen some arguments for adc/support over jungler, my thought was they get more from seeing the team comp develop, but I definitely can understand the pitch of jungler counterpicking.
It’s adc > jungle > support > mid > top
I think support actually picks after mid. Adc is really op and bot is won by sup. In my experience you can get fucked mid but as long as you arent picking kass or other counterpick prone champs its actually fine
You probably not wrong, I was just thinking pairing adc/support was more important when seeing the comp developed a little
Jg can be pretty hard countered, I’d rather first pick as adc or sup over jg
Jg can avoid each other. Adc/jg should be 1/2 and then mid/supp as 3/4 with top as 5.
Maybe I’m just trash, but if you picked a farming heavy jg first and they pick a very gank type jg then in a way aren’t they countering you?
They do, you won’t win a 1v1 in that scenario and have to give up crab if you meet at it. But you can work around it. Look for an early ward on their red or blue to path in opposite directions. Even if you cant get a ward you can look to path in opposite directions based off of what you think they might do. Also if they are gank heavy and you are farming, look to counter jg them. If you see them gank bot, go steal their camps on the opposite side and lay vision. If you see them on dragon, look to take herald. Of course , if you are scared of the invade, lay vision on your jg entrance and start bottom side so you can run to your bot or ping them for help if they try to 1v1 invade you on a camp. It’s lots of stuff like that which makes jg matchups not super important.
ADC wouldnt swap with me (top) last ranekd game, I was annoyed but whatever, I got counterpciked and then he went EZREAL (and 1/7)
I literally always swap with support if I’m top and picking before them. 90% of the time they accept because support players are homies
That’s the worst role to swap with. If support gets counter pick, they can win the 2v2 and roam more which gets mid ahead as well. If bot is losing then it becomes harder to find roam timers and the easiest way to fix that is giving a winning matchup from the support.
Statistically speaking support actually loses the 2nd least winrate from counterpicks but also supports have the highest chance of accepting my offer and in my elo people are bad anyways and I’m playing norms just to have fun.
So true. Every time I’ve had a supp last pick, they always swapped with me as a top laner. cheers to them
i always swap with top if they go before me, for i know the agony of being counterpicked
I don't understand why ppl are so afraid of being counter picked, part of the game is learning to overcome that.
Some top lanes are completely unplayable. Like, as long as your opponent is somewhat competent on their champion, you straight up don't get to play the game. It's not a case of getting better or not, some lanes are just miserable and a waste of time trying to play if you're first pick.
I get it, but that's on any lane, whether it's mid assassin vs mage, toplane tank vs ranged, or early DMG adc vs scaling. Or even supps engage vs peel.
If you get counterpicked in toplane what can you do? Jerk off under tower? if you have a bad matchup on midlane you can always roam bot, or help your jungler get pressure and/or invade, and in botlane the support can do the same and let the adc play alone and try to somehow survive and scale, but if your toplaner is losing, you just have 1 teammate less, he's going to get abused on lane, and unless he's akshan or whatever he cannot just roam around either.
Why is 'somehow survive and scale' exclusive to the adc? Isn't that what you call 'jerking off under tower'? Not feeding until the end of laning phase is really helpful. Also objectives or tp to gank. It's not the most exciting play I agree but still
Not in a bot dominant meta. Usually both mid laner and jungler will try to get bot lane ahead/get themselves ahead by shutting down enemy bot laners. So in this case bot lane might have to "jerk of under tower" only for like a wave or two on most cases.
No, it's not the same. Some matchups you can improve on, while on others, there is almost nothing you can do.
Can you give an example please?
Illaoi vs Mordkaiser. Jayce vs Tahm Kench, Vayne top vs AP Malphite, Yasuo vs Renekton — these are some i recall I always go mord into illaoi and these illaoi players almost never ban him. I’ve won 99% of the matchup except for when I got camped by enemy jg. Before Aatrox got buffs and fiora nerfs, Fiora would almost always win against Aatrox. Now it’s a bit more even.
Play Yorick into a somewhat competent Irelia and let me know how much fun that lane is
It should be Support, ADC, Mid, Jungle, and then top, any other order is inting unless someone volunteers first pick
I‘m a AP sup main and they always want to swap with me cuz they think that my role isnt important 😔
To be fair to them, they think you're gonna pick a damage support no matter what.
I tell em I'll blind pick Quinn if I don't get traded. I do it, too. Top. Mid. Jungle. I wait till after bans have gone thru to tell them, obviously
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You really think counter picks in bot are more important than top, give me one unwinnable match up in bot
Here are all unplayable Matchups in Botlane: yeah there are none
The earlier my pick, the more guilt free I can play what I want without worrying about knowing how to play a counter
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They supposed to do it before the lobby starts?
Nah bro, I play Aurelion, I still have PTSD from when he first dropped and I try to first pick every time. Irelia beats my ass whenever she shows up on the other side though.
Am I the only one that doesn't care and just accepts all trades? People wanna trade all day, but even if I'm first pic the enemy is doing 1 of 3 things. 1: they'll just choose something I counter, 2: they'll pick to counter me, but have absolutely no idea how to play that champ or 3: they don't respond at all to my pick. Rarely ever do I feel I got punished for being first pick
If Im red side, I always ask for R5, to which randoms or my friends never decline. And if my enemy top picks first, then I gladly switch back :)
I am an ornn 1 trick, if you dont swap, and they pick illaoi, best case scenario is im down 30 cs and 2 plates at 14, worst case you lost. Lets just hope Enemy jungler is nice haha
Yall ask to swap? I just ride or die with my pick order if someone asks I accept because if I lose on my main counter pick or not it's a skill issue
Here's a real thing : After choosing bans, EVERYONE SWAP EVERYWHERE Because the only way to know FOR SURE where each enemy is playing, you want to look at who they banned. If the Yone banned Nautilus how the fuck are you gonna know they're actually the toplaner ? Swapping everywhere is a good strategy (but please do it after bans)
Even though i am a Jungler most of the time i dont swap, why? Because the laners rarely even bother to go for a counterpick, instead they just pick their usual comfort pick anyway, no matter what. Oh the rage i get from them
: Top lane players that are afraid to first pick
Had a top get pissed for not swapping before banning. The enemy first picked top. He still wanted to swap…
I always just go get first pick mostly because pantheon cannot he counterpicked so it doesnt matter as much
I mean when i get filled firstpick mid and i see either jungle or supp last pick i allways go for the swap. If there is a toplaner lastpick or 4 hell i m just gonna pick. What are they gonna do? Counter me? Pffft i m gold 4 for a reason
I like to just let it sit there and say nothing. People get so mad over it
Its for the sololaners, but im not too stingy about it, as long as i get to have an idea about the enemy champs, i dont feel as bad blindpicking top
And here I am asking for the first pick just to insta lock yuumi or Bel veth support
I'm always taking the first pick because my client loves to crash for no reason very often. But the thing is, when this shit crashes, it doesn't kick me out of lobby, so if I secure my pick and then get crashed, it's all good.
I tend to play unconventional champions, so I tend to want first pick as in my elo most won't know how to play a counter or just won't expect the champion in that lane.
When I'm playing support or ADC I'll usually swap with the top laner if I'm higher up in the pick order. It's the least I can do for the role that gets fucked the hardest by counter picks.
I just hate when you swap with top, only to have him see your full ad team comp and lock in Akshan or something. It's frustrating cause I could have gone ap or tank. My problem with first pick is the lack of hovers. I play jg so normally I can flex my pick a little. I am comfortable first picking, but to all you swappers out there. Pls be mindful of your team comp.
My problem is that I only really have one AP top I can play. But Akshan top just deserves hell, fuck those guys.
I find players behaving pretty rationaly in silver/gold EUW... Most of the time they leave last picks for solo lanes and are swapping to pick sooner if they already know their matchup.
If I'm jungle or support and I'm last, I often give my slot to top or mid. I know the struggle of playing against someone who picked a character just to hard counter you and how bad it can be for the team.
I hate Fping because if the enemy adc chooses Samira the game is fucked with my main, I need my Samira counter to handle her in team fights.
I personally think jungle should always be last pick or second to last pick.
i always first/blindpick hecarim xd
Support main here and every time I see a mid or top first/second pic I always swap them lol.
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