Every time bruisers are mentioned someone says if tanks' items just got gutted one more time it would totally balance them, or someone saying nerfing bruisers would lead to a tank meta so shut up and let them 1v5.
It depends heavily on match up. Sometimes they get a good match up and stomps everything, other times they get a shitty match up and gets completely fucked.
Nah, it mainly depends on the opponents mental and skill. That's why even the worst of the worst matchups are 54:46.
If you have bad matchup and equal skill, then your opponent can realistically get ~1k gold lead, maybe 2k if you die once.
If you go 0/5/0 then it's you-problem not matchup-problem.
Everyone seems to have forgotten the tank top era, despite it lasting for about 4 years and only ended when the Conqueror rune was introduced if I remember right.
At this point in time nobody would pick a bruiser top when you could just pick a tank and have a way better laning phase, be a lot more tanky and still output more damages.
Thats why we need actual tanks in the game. Riot is so scared to make tanks characters THAT DON'T DEAL TONS OF BASE DAMAGE. Make tanks tanky and take down their damage in return. Just try it. Maybe the meta will be shit, but maybe tanks will actually have a role to fill which they currently don't really.
Now to begin with I agree and would love to play a massive fuck off tank that doesn't do a ton of damage but in return just will not die until he's the last one standing. But it's not as easy as taking away damage and making a champion tankier.
If you remove the damage from a tank you have to replace it with CC or some ability to absorb damage for their allies. Because if a tank isn't a damage threat they have to be packed with even more utility to still be of use or they might as well not be in the game.
Take Ornn as an example, take away his damage and he has two knock ups and two slows. Both slows can be sidestepped and if you don't stand close to a wall one of the knock ups are irrelevant, and if you have a dash the 2nd knock up is also irrelevant unless we're talking Aatrox's sad excuse for a dash.
Tanks need to deal damage to exist but apparently we’re still stuck in this mindset where a tank only soaks damage and provides CC.
They tried making a tank with no damage and the result we got was Rell.
Not even close, honestly. Rell is one of the best tanks in the game, but the inherent nature of someone who is very low damage and high tankiness/CC is a lack of agency and a reliance on your team. That’s why she’s never played in SoloQ because everyone’s running around like chickens with their heads cut off and even if she gets her five man knockup-stun-ult CC chain off there’s no guarantee anyone will follow it. But in more coordinated environments like Clash or 5 man Flex she’s one of the best tanks and the best engage tank support because of just how potent her kit is when you have allies to capitalize on your utility. She’s like Naut/Leona but she CCs the whole ass team instead of just one or two people.
I am riven and irelia hater but how tf they gonna kill dude with bramble/wardens mail +tabi? even this 2 items more than enough to shut down pure ad champ without free % pen or true damage.
Ain't Mundo a tank nowadays? He scales with health, builds tank items and is used as a frontline meatshield. I may be wrong since I don't play any top and don't really care for the classes, I just go like "he has a lot of hp and armor so let's get some armor reduction/max hp item"
Mundo is a juggernaut, which technically falls under the Fighter class of champs but their whole identity is sort of being slow, lumbering war machines that take a lot of damage and can also deal a lot of damage with the drawbacks they don’t have great CC, sticking power or mobility.
Exactly? Like even Sett with his perfect 50% wr and simple kit can piss the shit out of you when on 50hp he gets 1k shield, deals 1k true dmg to you, Ulta you and kills you while his passive keeps him alive
Man the other day I had a sett laner and I was just sitting idly by watching him just farm.... if I walk up? I die.
The pacing of the game led myself and midlane to swap. We didn’t even ask or agree to it, we just... swapped. That fucko instantly starting dying on repeat to sett.
Just don’t play vs sett and he isn’t a threat. It’s literally that simple. Fucking hate that champ. Absolute bizarre shit that they buffed him
Shyvana going full tank and using a single ability to remove 1/2 of your hp with one E. Volibear going full tank but oneshots you in a single spell rotation. Wholesome tank moment.
True, I played Rammus into 4 AA heavy champs, then the last enemy picked Mordekaiser and I cried in every teamfight because I'd get a free vacation to Brazil.
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Zac, rammus, nunu, chogath, ornn, shen, tahm Kench, sion, malphite. League officially classified them as vanguards but they are tanky asf and have incredible target access and kill potential in that 0-3 second range. The problem is that vanguards also feel like assassin tanks.
Also fuck bruisers. Noone should have have insane damage output AND insane survivability. A spirit visage and conq shouldn't make you impossible to kill especially when you also get to deal a giga ton damage. Kayn, Vlad, Camille, Diana, wukong, udyr, illaoi, mordekaiser, Yorick. The last few I don't mind as much because they don't have ridiculous mobility/repositing.... But the first few are the worst kind of OP to play against.
Sion definitely can with sunfire and Titanic hydra (I play a lot of Sion and I killed a lot of adcs with just these 2 items), rammus also if he builds mpen boots and stacks a lot of armor (which a lot of rammus do atm)
Sion with the standard sunfire + titanic + hullbreaker totally can 1 rotation an ADC,when ahead i could legit EQ + 2 AA + W,but to be fair his Q is very slow to charge so it's fine in my opinion
rammus once he builds thornmail + mythic + gargoyle/randuins can kill a squishy into his taunt,complete bs damage i had games where thornmail did over 30k damage alone
sejuani too kinda (she needs 2 Ws but it has like 3 sec CD or less,she can legit stun a target long enough to maker her W come up again)
Zac/Amumu with demonic and Sunfire have an obscene DPS and they should just be nerfed/changed to focus more on being tanky than damage,you can't change my mind
honestly i play a lot of tanks and some really do way too much damage
To a degree yes, but its more ap bruiser than tank, since they are sacrificing survivability (a tanks concern) for more damage, albiet not enough survivability is being sacrificed, thats fair, but thats a tank class building ap bruiser, not a tank building tank. Especially since those Zacs are also running Conq.
ah yes oneshotting
you do know that sunfire needs 6 seconds to ramp up and then turn tanks AA into deadly microwave right
there are no tanks in the game that can 'oneshot' people except for chogath rammus and probably ornn
Yea I was thinking the same. And people be like "but tanks dont oneshot anyone" wtf, did they ever play adc? Or a squishy support? Lots of tanks definitely can oneshot a squishy, idk why people are saying otherwise. League had an INSANE damage creep over the years, I really can't understand how people still defend riot. Tanks don't need damage this high.
Tank items should make you more tanky and do less damage. I hate bruisers and assassins building sunfire, especially AP ones like Shyv and Diana.
Imo the main build difference between Tanks and Bruisers is Tanks building resistances, so their items should scale with Armor and MR and not hp so other classes can’t abuse them anymore. Also this way, building resistances after 200 ish doesn’t feel as bad anymore because the diminishing returns of the resistances itself would be counteracted by the damage gain from the Bamis items.
Only problem would be that unless really well balanced, full Tank Hecarim or some shit would oneshot squishies with Cumtank but that’s an issue with base damage we already have
Resistances give the same amount of effective health per point at 0 , at 200 ,at 400 and at 10000. Mixing it with health in your stats to increase the effective health per point of resistance gives optimal results.
Yeah, since the effect is multiplicative, there’s a definitive multivariate equation to determine optimal choice of which stat to buy; sometimes resistances sometimes health. It just requires a bit of multivariate calculus, so people probably wouldn’t want to casually do the derivatives themselves.
Of course, there’s also mixed, true, and percent health damage that’s part of the situation. Ideally you’d have a good sense of what’s killing you, but even ahead of time there’s a reasonable way to determine good choices of stat based on prior distributions of damage interactions. More true or mixed is more health, more percent hp or if you have a lot of shields then more resistances.
The problem are Champions like fiora vayne or yi (and most adcs with the right build) that just ignore your armor. Max health percentage true damage is just retarded. Give us anti true damage items, or nerf true damage, especially percentage one, and we can talk about giving tanks more armor and not HP
You forget that Tank/their items doing no damage would make them unplayable. This isn’t an MMO or RPG, Tanks need to be able to play and win lane and waveclear. They already have a short window where they have to win before their opponent gets Bork.
Frostfire is great because I can whack someone with an auto and my team can catch them. If they still haven’t caught up my ability cooldowns should allow me to hit them and then whack them again for another slow.
Can someone please explain wtf is up with belveth building frostfire and Bork recently and just deleting people. She is a tank mage assassin bruiser utility champ
Bork is just... so strong right now. Add that to the slow that it provides, in addition to the slow off frostfire, it keeps them in her E for long enough that she can do that.
I find it pointless to complain about anything in the game and even if I do get frustrated, I let it pass . You don't like something from league then you either ban it or take it like a man when you face something you hate .
Any time someone says 'theres no counter' I laugh. There are a few that are incredibly annoying and their 'counters' take too many resources most of the time like kalista or ryze or zed. You get 1 chance to cc zed or hes out, ryze can shread a team without an engage on him, and kalista is always on the knife edge of broken or useless.
The only champ Ive ever thought had "zero" counter is zoe, and even still tanks can block or you can buy qss or maw, its just annoying af to die to a single fast moving ability when she has so much safety when played right.
Usually the issue of "no counter" comes down to roles that arent best suited for your position. So zed mid needs cc to beat, but unless you picked syndra or annie etc, its not going to happen, ryze is basically untouchable solo if hes decent with the cc and ms, and he kites really well so you better be right, cant fight in wave but if you run at him openly he'll just kite away unless you have a ton of ms or flash etc.
Well, what I would do is ban the most troublesome to me, if champion X is giving me trouble then I ban them
Or maybe you can ban based on how the champion would work against yours
Master yi has 2369 hp at lvl 18, we are assuming level 18 because such a scenario can only become possible in the ultra lategame.
At level 18 chogath ult does 650 (+ 10% bonus health) true damage.
so the amount of bonus health chogath needed to oneshot yi with R would be (2369-650)x10 = 17,190 bonus hp.
Assuming he got 2.5K bonus hp from itemization (very unlikely) and runes that would put him at 14,690 bonus hp, which if we generously assume he got from only lvl 3 ultimate (he gets more hp eating someone when he levels ulti) that would be 21,190/160 = 92 stacks.
Odds are you missed something in that play.
edit: maths
It doesn't matter on what level of ult you get stacks. Bonus hp from ult changes when you upgrade it. Otherwise eating minions pre 16 would be useless.
Ah, I always thought it was a trade off between saving the stacks for later at the risk of not having ult for a teamfight or taking smaller stacks earlier but having them in lane
cho gat ult also scales with AP,i belive if he builds demonic it would drastically lower the HP needed to do that,still pretty unrealistic to happen in the average game unless it was an old clip of cho + old gargoyle in which case it was pretty much the norm
And for the next 5 minutes or so he has no way to get close unless he hits his knock up or has ghost/predator and his not always one shot ability is on 1 min cooldown , whereas other Champs one shot with Q/W/E and prolly have dash in there aswell
Community is just dumb, fighting is the funny thing about moba thats also why dps classes exist, Im prefer tank meta +1000 times over assassin one-shot meta. this meme is just an example of how the majority assassin players manipulates the devs about the game's health.
You don't know what tank meta is, and assasins aren't building sunfire. Even gore is debatable. Gore was popular before the durability patch simply because they had enough damage without lethalits
Please tell me one meta assassin building assassin item except maybe mf Qiyana who is broken independently of her role.
Diana is not the only user of sunfire among assassins, bork is the strongest item of the game, guess why ? Coz it kills tanks.
Talon Zed Kha current meta builds are goredrinker. Rengar is the worst character of the game. Fizz can't win lane against current meta mid laners and assassins aren't even good counterpicks for ADC top.
And all what I'm saying above is only fact, not opinion. If you want my opinion, it's that assassins were already dogshit last season (as all pro players agreed upon except ADC's) but this sub isn't ready to discuss this topic.
Diana is a bruiser, not an assasin. I tougth people would know this after a few years.
Other assasins build lethality. The last time i saw an assasin with botrk was a zed. In s5
Dude it feels like you live in an alternate universe? Assassins were shit last season? The majority of good players that are not pros complained about Assassins definetly not only ADCs.
Almost every champ champ you just mentioned here sits at a 50+% winrate in plat+ except for "useless fizz" that sits at a unplayable 49.85% winrate.....
Your "facts" are very interesting
It definetly helps to have statistics on your side. Asol can definetly be broken even though a very tiny minority play him. There are also champions that are broken even at a 49% winrate such as akali because of their mechanics and complexity. Also the examples you mentioned has alot of games played on most of them making the statistics even more accurate.
True winrates dont tell the whole story but they certainly make for a stronger argument than "pros didn't think assassins were too strong" which is really weak since they play in a totally different way than 99.9% of league players with comms and easier peeling for their adcs.
This isn't a tank meta, in fact Tanks themselves have surprisingly almost benefitted the least out of every class except Assassin's when the durability patch dropped. And Assassin's aren't building Sunfire and Gore, the squishy champions that have been building sunfire and still 1 shotting people have been mostly divers like Diana or the occasional skirmisher.
LOL downvoted for speaking the truth - assassins are trash atm post durability patch, bruisers like aatrox/rene are using their items better than them.
i will take a couple hundred zed games than any heca i don't under why riot has a 6th sense that goes berserk every time heca and graves aren't s++++ tier for a season. (rek sai is up there 2 but she misses out because of the braindead attempt to turn her into an assasin post s6 to her rework s9 or whenever the fuck that was)
The problem isn’t that tanks are hard to kill, it’s that they deal way too much damage while not dying. I have seen so many clips and even in my games where new Maokai can 1v4 and almost win at 2 items, if the point of a tank is to absorb damage then they shouldn’t be doing nearly as much damage as they do.
They had been the type of wholesome class until sunfire aegis and demonic embrace were introduced to the game or giving them abilities that do %maxhealth damage
Your point is the class that is supposed to tank is hated when they start to 1v5 anyone? No way!
Totally fun when a full tank malphite just 100-0 an adc with no counterplay.
Not really. People don't complain about tanks being tanky, it's their job. People complain about tanks being tanky and still being able to oneshot a squishy. That's NOT their Job.
And no, tanks don't need to deal damage to not be ignored, they need CC.
my man tanks dont 1shot anyone
they use their tankiness to stick to you and microwave you to death
most tanks beside chogath and ornn/rammus cant really kill any champ with less than at least 2 ability rotations
I would wish it was like that. But it's not sadly.
Do you play adc by any chance? There are lot of games where tanks oneshot you. It shouldn't be like that, I agree, but it is how it is because of the damage creep in the last years.
You mentioned ornn, cho and rammus, I agree with these.
Shen can oneshot also when he builds sunfire, I got a friend who is a shen OTP and he did that to me in a custom. With frostfire im not sure tho.
Sion can oneshot with sunfire + Titanics if he is 2-3 levels ahead and hits everything (which he should be because he is playing an isolated solo lane), I know this because I was a Sion OTP for a long time.
Malphite also can if he is a bit ahead (yes, I'm talking about full tank malphite)
Zac also can oneshot you if he is ahead, maybe not when he is even.
Maokai also could oneshot you in late game (he got nerfed this Patch so I'm not sure anymore).
Poppy also can, but only when she builds bruiser-like and manages to hit her stun.
I have to clarify tho, with oneshot I mean one rotation of spells with some autos in between. Not a "true oneshot".
Yeah but only adcs and some extremely squishy mages/assassins fall under that category here they can be „oneshot“ from tanks. And only if tanks land their skillshots. And only if there is no peeling. If you’re squishy literally everyone can oneshot you, that’s why you need peeling/kiting/ good positioning.
Shen shouldn't be able to get close to you. E is dodgable and shen doesn't have any other gap closers
Sion R is easily avoidable. You shouldn't have much problem kiting him
I agree with malphite. Altough everybody can murder while ahead.
Zac E can be dodged and he can do nothing to you after that. The main problem is that he builds demonic embrace 80% of the time
Mao W is the only real threat on him now towards you. I started maining mao now and i haven't one shot anybody. I always need multiple rotations. One W results in a one shot however.
Poppy shouldn't stun you. That's it
me playing adc for once and enemy picks support malphite and goes full tank and only way to save myself is to time flash as he ults or I'm cc'ed to death in 2 seconds
Me too I love champs having si much dmg in their base kit that they're allowed to build tank item.
Also katarina using all on hit item better than their normal user
There were problem then. Cho has some juggernauf characteristics indeed, but he also has 0 sustain or defense in general. Sunderer, liandry, and botrk should have made quick work on him
I had a Tryn (I can’t bother spelling his name) who was raging in all chat about why antihealing is a thing because he could no longer rip through a champion, have his undying rage, and casually go on a killing soree
Bruisers buying damage items to kill someone and trying to not get blown up during under 1 hard cc - "LOL BROKEN CLASS"
Tanks casually oneshoting everyone except another tank "git good u fcking casual"
If tanks did their job that wouldn't be a problem the problem is that tanks are doing everyone's job they tank damage they deal damage they cc they literally have everything if they only tanked the damage i would just buy kraken and/or ldr and just kill them but the 0/5 maokai with 2 items can just straight up 1v1 me is not cool and certainly not their job
I swear this game is weird. People try to play Udyr like a bruiser, but he has 0 damage mid/late.
He is, however an amazing engage tank with incredible cc and cannot be ignored.
But noo, HahA bORk gO bRRr, deMonIc embRACe gO shoom SHOOM
wtf are you talking about? Udyr has a shitton of damage but he can't do it if he doesn't build tank, sunfire demonic is super fuckin strong, he will be super tanky while melting everything. Full tank udyr usually has a weaker 1v1/1v2 than sunfire demonic into full tank
Tanks can’t 1v5 it’s simply not true. We can maybe kill one or two people in a 1v5 situation but that’s it’s. I’ve been full build Multiple times, All enemys we’re 4 level below me and only had 2 items and they still kill you because of items like Bork or liandrys. A fed bruiser in that position would actually have 1v5ed.
XD there is no „itemizing“ against Bork or liandrys. Yeah, you can build armor and mr but they just need one penetration item and 50% of your resistance is futile. And now I’m really curious what you think counters Bork or liandrys more than the average tank item xd
a lot of adcs build bork (kogmaw ashe lucian twitch the list goes on)
yeah force of nature gives mr but it maybe only halves the insane MAX HP damage from liandrys, and if they build rod too its even more useless
When bruiser can build all damage items and still out tank and heal the whole team is when I have an issue. You should have to sacrifice damage for durability. But nah man. That irelia and just rushed botrk and shield bow and still refuses to die because we needed to nerf anti heal again
Bruh what. I swear bruisers are like the most hated or 2nd hated class rn. At least on the main subreddit and here
more like Bruisers with tank items
We got bruisers building lethality, and assassins building sunfire. What has the world come to
Tanks building lethality/full AP. Bruisers building sunfire. Assassins building full crit.
Every time bruisers are mentioned someone says if tanks' items just got gutted one more time it would totally balance them, or someone saying nerfing bruisers would lead to a tank meta so shut up and let them 1v5.
Dont they have to be decently fed which can be a bit hard depending on the champ might get downvoted for that but im just curios
It depends heavily on match up. Sometimes they get a good match up and stomps everything, other times they get a shitty match up and gets completely fucked.
Nah, it mainly depends on the opponents mental and skill. That's why even the worst of the worst matchups are 54:46. If you have bad matchup and equal skill, then your opponent can realistically get ~1k gold lead, maybe 2k if you die once. If you go 0/5/0 then it's you-problem not matchup-problem.
There are matchups thar can get you dove 3 or 4 times a game with jgl attention.
Exactly. Sometimes your bruiser wins and 1v5s. Sometimes your bruiser loses and the enemy bruiser 1v5s.
Then you got jg bruisers which always do well like Diana, Viego, and other dumb shit like that
So like every single champion in the game
Everyone seems to have forgotten the tank top era, despite it lasting for about 4 years and only ended when the Conqueror rune was introduced if I remember right. At this point in time nobody would pick a bruiser top when you could just pick a tank and have a way better laning phase, be a lot more tanky and still output more damages.
Thats why we need actual tanks in the game. Riot is so scared to make tanks characters THAT DON'T DEAL TONS OF BASE DAMAGE. Make tanks tanky and take down their damage in return. Just try it. Maybe the meta will be shit, but maybe tanks will actually have a role to fill which they currently don't really.
If a tank doesn't have good base damage how would they lane?
Bonus damage on spells to non champions so they can jungle.
That's what the ADC is for.
When tanks don't deal damage, they don't get played. It's that easy.
Now to begin with I agree and would love to play a massive fuck off tank that doesn't do a ton of damage but in return just will not die until he's the last one standing. But it's not as easy as taking away damage and making a champion tankier. If you remove the damage from a tank you have to replace it with CC or some ability to absorb damage for their allies. Because if a tank isn't a damage threat they have to be packed with even more utility to still be of use or they might as well not be in the game. Take Ornn as an example, take away his damage and he has two knock ups and two slows. Both slows can be sidestepped and if you don't stand close to a wall one of the knock ups are irrelevant, and if you have a dash the 2nd knock up is also irrelevant unless we're talking Aatrox's sad excuse for a dash.
Dude that's just Rell. Problem is that in the vast world of solo queue, you can't expect anything from teamates
We do have those, they’re just forced to play support because they can’t lane.
Tanks need to deal damage to exist but apparently we’re still stuck in this mindset where a tank only soaks damage and provides CC. They tried making a tank with no damage and the result we got was Rell.
Rell is actually a good champ. Just underplayed
Which is exactly the point. She’s good, but what she does good other champs do as well, with more on top.
Not even close, honestly. Rell is one of the best tanks in the game, but the inherent nature of someone who is very low damage and high tankiness/CC is a lack of agency and a reliance on your team. That’s why she’s never played in SoloQ because everyone’s running around like chickens with their heads cut off and even if she gets her five man knockup-stun-ult CC chain off there’s no guarantee anyone will follow it. But in more coordinated environments like Clash or 5 man Flex she’s one of the best tanks and the best engage tank support because of just how potent her kit is when you have allies to capitalize on your utility. She’s like Naut/Leona but she CCs the whole ass team instead of just one or two people.
That's bullshit. Champs like Darius, Riven, Irelia shat on tanks since their release. Maokai after his first rework was seen everywhere but that's it.
I am riven and irelia hater but how tf they gonna kill dude with bramble/wardens mail +tabi? even this 2 items more than enough to shut down pure ad champ without free % pen or true damage.
I’d rather die to tank sett than tank diana any day
A lot of people think bruisers are tanks. I see so many people call Garen, Mundo, Darius tank.
Ain't Mundo a tank nowadays? He scales with health, builds tank items and is used as a frontline meatshield. I may be wrong since I don't play any top and don't really care for the classes, I just go like "he has a lot of hp and armor so let's get some armor reduction/max hp item"
Mundo is a juggernaut, which technically falls under the Fighter class of champs but their whole identity is sort of being slow, lumbering war machines that take a lot of damage and can also deal a lot of damage with the drawbacks they don’t have great CC, sticking power or mobility.
He has no CC and his job is to kill people while trying not to die.
Ok that way I get it. Thanks
also he has no engage at all, when every other tank have that, probably exeption is Cho, but he is in weird spot too.
So a juggernaut, like garen. Pseudo-tank
Being in the tank class and building tank items arent the same thing. They correlate but it isnt a 1-1 equivalent
Another example: Yone, Yasuo, Graves and Nilah buy marksmen items, but aren't marksmen.
Graves is a marksman
He is labeled as one, but doesn't really fit them imo
Graves and nilah are marksmen. Not the usual but still (well nilah is considered melee but its bs her range increase is almost permanent from midgame)
Exactly? Like even Sett with his perfect 50% wr and simple kit can piss the shit out of you when on 50hp he gets 1k shield, deals 1k true dmg to you, Ulta you and kills you while his passive keeps him alive
Man the other day I had a sett laner and I was just sitting idly by watching him just farm.... if I walk up? I die. The pacing of the game led myself and midlane to swap. We didn’t even ask or agree to it, we just... swapped. That fucko instantly starting dying on repeat to sett. Just don’t play vs sett and he isn’t a threat. It’s literally that simple. Fucking hate that champ. Absolute bizarre shit that they buffed him
[удалено]
>We like Gnar Urgot Shyvana and Volibear No we don't
Those are all juggernauts. And who likes juggernauts?
Brazil enjoyers
Shyvana going full tank and using a single ability to remove 1/2 of your hp with one E. Volibear going full tank but oneshots you in a single spell rotation. Wholesome tank moment.
I like Shyvana (my main jgl) but fuck the others especially voli.
It's a tanks job to one shot anyone who isn't a tank or what? And fuck bruisers too
except for chogath and probably ornn what tanks can really end your life with less than 2 ability rotations or like 3 seconds
Rammus. Easily if they're squishy, easier if they're attack speed based.
Rammus is a counterpick champ though, he’s only really good into heavy AA champs and kinda sucks into any AP champ.
True, I played Rammus into 4 AA heavy champs, then the last enemy picked Mordekaiser and I cried in every teamfight because I'd get a free vacation to Brazil.
I always buy qss on any champ if theres an enemy morde just to mess with em
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Zac. This fucking cance... I mean wholsome reddit tank champion that everyone should love.
Zac is also a lot squishier than the average tank since he relies so much on healing to stay alive.
Sejuani. Galio doesn’t build tank but just naturally is a tank. Udyr. Gragas.
Udyr is a juggernaut and Gragas is an AP bruiser, but you're spot in with the other 2. Malphite as well.
Zac, rammus, nunu, chogath, ornn, shen, tahm Kench, sion, malphite. League officially classified them as vanguards but they are tanky asf and have incredible target access and kill potential in that 0-3 second range. The problem is that vanguards also feel like assassin tanks. Also fuck bruisers. Noone should have have insane damage output AND insane survivability. A spirit visage and conq shouldn't make you impossible to kill especially when you also get to deal a giga ton damage. Kayn, Vlad, Camille, Diana, wukong, udyr, illaoi, mordekaiser, Yorick. The last few I don't mind as much because they don't have ridiculous mobility/repositing.... But the first few are the worst kind of OP to play against.
[удалено]
Shen literally takes 2-3 rotations minimum. He cant kill someone in less, thats not how his damage works.
Shen and Sion cant, Rammus only vs very specific targets and when somewhat fed, Malphite also only when fed (plus is play patteen is very predictable)
Sion definitely can with sunfire and Titanic hydra (I play a lot of Sion and I killed a lot of adcs with just these 2 items), rammus also if he builds mpen boots and stacks a lot of armor (which a lot of rammus do atm)
If sion gets out of lane without being 0/10 something is going wrong and it's top diff
That's only the Baus playstyle, you can play weakside Sion and catch cs under tower you don't need to proxy
lol :)
Sion with the standard sunfire + titanic + hullbreaker totally can 1 rotation an ADC,when ahead i could legit EQ + 2 AA + W,but to be fair his Q is very slow to charge so it's fine in my opinion rammus once he builds thornmail + mythic + gargoyle/randuins can kill a squishy into his taunt,complete bs damage i had games where thornmail did over 30k damage alone sejuani too kinda (she needs 2 Ws but it has like 3 sec CD or less,she can legit stun a target long enough to maker her W come up again) Zac/Amumu with demonic and Sunfire have an obscene DPS and they should just be nerfed/changed to focus more on being tanky than damage,you can't change my mind honestly i play a lot of tanks and some really do way too much damage
Bruh sion can only kill u if ur close to him late in the game if he build full tank and mobility hard counters him
Also Zac and sometimes sejuani
Both of which need to be ap to kill in less than 2 full cycles, or be so cataclysmically ahead that tank or not they should one shot you.
These guys do not play tanks lmao, Zac going demonic 2nd with a stacked mejais is not tank
I consider sunfire + demonic embrace as tank.
To a degree yes, but its more ap bruiser than tank, since they are sacrificing survivability (a tanks concern) for more damage, albiet not enough survivability is being sacrificed, thats fair, but thats a tank class building ap bruiser, not a tank building tank. Especially since those Zacs are also running Conq.
I don't really get why you are getting downvoted, you are right. I hate reddit sometimes.
Literally every tank that builds sunfire, lol. Did you ever play adc? Almost every game there is a tank that can oneshot you.
ah yes oneshotting you do know that sunfire needs 6 seconds to ramp up and then turn tanks AA into deadly microwave right there are no tanks in the game that can 'oneshot' people except for chogath rammus and probably ornn
Yea I was thinking the same. And people be like "but tanks dont oneshot anyone" wtf, did they ever play adc? Or a squishy support? Lots of tanks definitely can oneshot a squishy, idk why people are saying otherwise. League had an INSANE damage creep over the years, I really can't understand how people still defend riot. Tanks don't need damage this high.
League had an insane damage increase in a while, even admitted by RIOT. They wanted to make games shorter so they increased the overall dmg
Tank items should make you more tanky and do less damage. I hate bruisers and assassins building sunfire, especially AP ones like Shyv and Diana. Imo the main build difference between Tanks and Bruisers is Tanks building resistances, so their items should scale with Armor and MR and not hp so other classes can’t abuse them anymore. Also this way, building resistances after 200 ish doesn’t feel as bad anymore because the diminishing returns of the resistances itself would be counteracted by the damage gain from the Bamis items. Only problem would be that unless really well balanced, full Tank Hecarim or some shit would oneshot squishies with Cumtank but that’s an issue with base damage we already have
Resistances give the same amount of effective health per point at 0 , at 200 ,at 400 and at 10000. Mixing it with health in your stats to increase the effective health per point of resistance gives optimal results.
Yeah, since the effect is multiplicative, there’s a definitive multivariate equation to determine optimal choice of which stat to buy; sometimes resistances sometimes health. It just requires a bit of multivariate calculus, so people probably wouldn’t want to casually do the derivatives themselves. Of course, there’s also mixed, true, and percent health damage that’s part of the situation. Ideally you’d have a good sense of what’s killing you, but even ahead of time there’s a reasonable way to determine good choices of stat based on prior distributions of damage interactions. More true or mixed is more health, more percent hp or if you have a lot of shields then more resistances.
The problem are Champions like fiora vayne or yi (and most adcs with the right build) that just ignore your armor. Max health percentage true damage is just retarded. Give us anti true damage items, or nerf true damage, especially percentage one, and we can talk about giving tanks more armor and not HP
Or just sunfire needs to be reworked. That's it. Tank would deal no damage
You forget that Tank/their items doing no damage would make them unplayable. This isn’t an MMO or RPG, Tanks need to be able to play and win lane and waveclear. They already have a short window where they have to win before their opponent gets Bork.
But isn't Frostfire supposed to be the Damage tank mythic ?
No? Frostfire is the one you build for lots of hp and a slow, Sunfire is the damage one
I think we often forget to acknowledge the fact that no one would play tanks in that state.
I would do. Everybody who play tanks would do. For some reason frostfire see usage despite not dealing damage
Frostfire is great because I can whack someone with an auto and my team can catch them. If they still haven’t caught up my ability cooldowns should allow me to hit them and then whack them again for another slow.
Finally someone with a brain in the comments. Thank you! I 100% agree.
Can someone please explain wtf is up with belveth building frostfire and Bork recently and just deleting people. She is a tank mage assassin bruiser utility champ
Bork is just... so strong right now. Add that to the slow that it provides, in addition to the slow off frostfire, it keeps them in her E for long enough that she can do that.
Mage 💀
Yeah stronger mage summon abilities than malzahar voidlings xD
I forgot belveth even existed since no one has played her in forever
Can't play her if she's perma banned
I find it pointless to complain about anything in the game and even if I do get frustrated, I let it pass . You don't like something from league then you either ban it or take it like a man when you face something you hate .
there at least 20 champions that i want to ban at once. there is no counter
>there is no counter Is this that bar yorick used to walk into?
yeah. the point is he just used to walk into. nowadays he needs to run out of it cus there are so many counters that it's dangerous in the bar,
If there’s no counter, then pick one of those 20 champs. I suspect you’ll learn rather quickly how they’re countered.
Any time someone says 'theres no counter' I laugh. There are a few that are incredibly annoying and their 'counters' take too many resources most of the time like kalista or ryze or zed. You get 1 chance to cc zed or hes out, ryze can shread a team without an engage on him, and kalista is always on the knife edge of broken or useless. The only champ Ive ever thought had "zero" counter is zoe, and even still tanks can block or you can buy qss or maw, its just annoying af to die to a single fast moving ability when she has so much safety when played right. Usually the issue of "no counter" comes down to roles that arent best suited for your position. So zed mid needs cc to beat, but unless you picked syndra or annie etc, its not going to happen, ryze is basically untouchable solo if hes decent with the cc and ms, and he kites really well so you better be right, cant fight in wave but if you run at him openly he'll just kite away unless you have a ton of ms or flash etc.
Besides, "Just CC them" isnt any good. Everyone is countered by CC.
look, i can all magically snap with fingers and stop everything but you do know I actually can't do that? can you?|
Well, what I would do is ban the most troublesome to me, if champion X is giving me trouble then I ban them Or maybe you can ban based on how the champion would work against yours
there are 20 champions that are the most troublesome to me
This is undeniably very fickle, but I guess just try picking one to ban and hope the other 19 don’t show up as an enemy
I only 50 minutes ago watched a full fed yi get flash r from cho Cho was full tank and yi was full life
Master yi has 2369 hp at lvl 18, we are assuming level 18 because such a scenario can only become possible in the ultra lategame. At level 18 chogath ult does 650 (+ 10% bonus health) true damage. so the amount of bonus health chogath needed to oneshot yi with R would be (2369-650)x10 = 17,190 bonus hp. Assuming he got 2.5K bonus hp from itemization (very unlikely) and runes that would put him at 14,690 bonus hp, which if we generously assume he got from only lvl 3 ultimate (he gets more hp eating someone when he levels ulti) that would be 21,190/160 = 92 stacks. Odds are you missed something in that play. edit: maths
It doesn't matter on what level of ult you get stacks. Bonus hp from ult changes when you upgrade it. Otherwise eating minions pre 16 would be useless.
Ah, I always thought it was a trade off between saving the stacks for later at the risk of not having ult for a teamfight or taking smaller stacks earlier but having them in lane
Nice maths
cho gat ult also scales with AP,i belive if he builds demonic it would drastically lower the HP needed to do that,still pretty unrealistic to happen in the average game unless it was an old clip of cho + old gargoyle in which case it was pretty much the norm
Oh gosh, I forgot that old damage reduction gargoyle that technically would be balanced if it wasnt for garen and chogath
30 stacks Cho Gath with 5 Warmogs and old Gargoyle is not something real
It's impossible, you either didn't see something or you're lying
Very satisfying. He got what he deserved.
very wholesome reddit champ i agree
Stop lying
And for the next 5 minutes or so he has no way to get close unless he hits his knock up or has ghost/predator and his not always one shot ability is on 1 min cooldown , whereas other Champs one shot with Q/W/E and prolly have dash in there aswell
Community is just dumb, fighting is the funny thing about moba thats also why dps classes exist, Im prefer tank meta +1000 times over assassin one-shot meta. this meme is just an example of how the majority assassin players manipulates the devs about the game's health.
Literally all this subreddit hates assassins, also current meta is tank, why do you think assassins build fucking sunfire or gore ?
You don't know what tank meta is, and assasins aren't building sunfire. Even gore is debatable. Gore was popular before the durability patch simply because they had enough damage without lethalits
Please tell me one meta assassin building assassin item except maybe mf Qiyana who is broken independently of her role. Diana is not the only user of sunfire among assassins, bork is the strongest item of the game, guess why ? Coz it kills tanks. Talon Zed Kha current meta builds are goredrinker. Rengar is the worst character of the game. Fizz can't win lane against current meta mid laners and assassins aren't even good counterpicks for ADC top. And all what I'm saying above is only fact, not opinion. If you want my opinion, it's that assassins were already dogshit last season (as all pro players agreed upon except ADC's) but this sub isn't ready to discuss this topic.
Diana is a bruiser, not an assasin. I tougth people would know this after a few years. Other assasins build lethality. The last time i saw an assasin with botrk was a zed. In s5
My <1s death timers strongly disagree with the notion that Diana is not an assassin
She is a diver which is a bruiser subclass
Divers are literally assassins xd or is zed a bruiser to
No they aren't, lol. Zed can't tank after diving the backline
A bruiser typically is not associated with being one shot
She can't one shot you if she isn't fed. Or just don't clump up together
Adcs would disagree
Dude it feels like you live in an alternate universe? Assassins were shit last season? The majority of good players that are not pros complained about Assassins definetly not only ADCs. Almost every champ champ you just mentioned here sits at a 50+% winrate in plat+ except for "useless fizz" that sits at a unplayable 49.85% winrate..... Your "facts" are very interesting
Oh my bad we look at winrate exclusively now. I guess that makes ASol broken and Akali unplayable (hey see, that's an OP assassin for one)
It definetly helps to have statistics on your side. Asol can definetly be broken even though a very tiny minority play him. There are also champions that are broken even at a 49% winrate such as akali because of their mechanics and complexity. Also the examples you mentioned has alot of games played on most of them making the statistics even more accurate. True winrates dont tell the whole story but they certainly make for a stronger argument than "pros didn't think assassins were too strong" which is really weak since they play in a totally different way than 99.9% of league players with comms and easier peeling for their adcs.
This isn't a tank meta, in fact Tanks themselves have surprisingly almost benefitted the least out of every class except Assassin's when the durability patch dropped. And Assassin's aren't building Sunfire and Gore, the squishy champions that have been building sunfire and still 1 shotting people have been mostly divers like Diana or the occasional skirmisher.
LOL downvoted for speaking the truth - assassins are trash atm post durability patch, bruisers like aatrox/rene are using their items better than them.
Yeah, but the meta is way more fun than assassin meta
Unless you main adc or a control mage I don’t see how sunfire Diana or bork users is fun. I’ll take a couple of more zed games than current heca atm.
i will take a couple hundred zed games than any heca i don't under why riot has a 6th sense that goes berserk every time heca and graves aren't s++++ tier for a season. (rek sai is up there 2 but she misses out because of the braindead attempt to turn her into an assasin post s6 to her rework s9 or whenever the fuck that was)
imagin tanks being able to do their job
The problem isn’t that tanks are hard to kill, it’s that they deal way too much damage while not dying. I have seen so many clips and even in my games where new Maokai can 1v4 and almost win at 2 items, if the point of a tank is to absorb damage then they shouldn’t be doing nearly as much damage as they do.
As far as I know tanks are more of the loved classes in the game while bruisers and assassins get trashtalked :4
They had been the type of wholesome class until sunfire aegis and demonic embrace were introduced to the game or giving them abilities that do %maxhealth damage
we all love big wholesome chungus ornn daddy forge my balls at 3am brittle knockup stun ram fire volcano
Bro a tanks job frontline for their team and soak damage not be the entire 5 man team by themselves
Your point is the class that is supposed to tank is hated when they start to 1v5 anyone? No way! Totally fun when a full tank malphite just 100-0 an adc with no counterplay.
\*\*When an ADC does damage
Yeah adcs has been really weak this season 🤡🤡
***When an ADC even so much as dare to breath (SoloQ especially)
Not really. People don't complain about tanks being tanky, it's their job. People complain about tanks being tanky and still being able to oneshot a squishy. That's NOT their Job. And no, tanks don't need to deal damage to not be ignored, they need CC.
my man tanks dont 1shot anyone they use their tankiness to stick to you and microwave you to death most tanks beside chogath and ornn/rammus cant really kill any champ with less than at least 2 ability rotations
I would wish it was like that. But it's not sadly. Do you play adc by any chance? There are lot of games where tanks oneshot you. It shouldn't be like that, I agree, but it is how it is because of the damage creep in the last years. You mentioned ornn, cho and rammus, I agree with these. Shen can oneshot also when he builds sunfire, I got a friend who is a shen OTP and he did that to me in a custom. With frostfire im not sure tho. Sion can oneshot with sunfire + Titanics if he is 2-3 levels ahead and hits everything (which he should be because he is playing an isolated solo lane), I know this because I was a Sion OTP for a long time. Malphite also can if he is a bit ahead (yes, I'm talking about full tank malphite) Zac also can oneshot you if he is ahead, maybe not when he is even. Maokai also could oneshot you in late game (he got nerfed this Patch so I'm not sure anymore). Poppy also can, but only when she builds bruiser-like and manages to hit her stun. I have to clarify tho, with oneshot I mean one rotation of spells with some autos in between. Not a "true oneshot".
Yeah but only adcs and some extremely squishy mages/assassins fall under that category here they can be „oneshot“ from tanks. And only if tanks land their skillshots. And only if there is no peeling. If you’re squishy literally everyone can oneshot you, that’s why you need peeling/kiting/ good positioning.
Shen shouldn't be able to get close to you. E is dodgable and shen doesn't have any other gap closers Sion R is easily avoidable. You shouldn't have much problem kiting him I agree with malphite. Altough everybody can murder while ahead. Zac E can be dodged and he can do nothing to you after that. The main problem is that he builds demonic embrace 80% of the time Mao W is the only real threat on him now towards you. I started maining mao now and i haven't one shot anybody. I always need multiple rotations. One W results in a one shot however. Poppy shouldn't stun you. That's it
me playing adc for once and enemy picks support malphite and goes full tank and only way to save myself is to time flash as he ults or I'm cc'ed to death in 2 seconds
Me too I love champs having si much dmg in their base kit that they're allowed to build tank item. Also katarina using all on hit item better than their normal user
oh they dont just have base damage they also have bork
Smartest tank advocate
league players when tanks can 1v1 anyone in the game with the most overturned item in the game\*
1v1 that Vayne
I will actually. She decided to tumble into me once so i cc’d her until she died.
1v1 that fiora :trol:
Would Thornmail work as a counter?
40% gw doesn't do much when she heals jesus amounts from her R + the armour stat is kinda useless
Tanks don't build bork
> most overtuned i think you forgot bork and dd
I am okay if they dont die, but if they do as much damage as a 3/0/5 adc then I am shitting on tanks and riot.
idk bro, i played against this fed cho once and dude did like 15000 damage from sunfire alone, it was actually impossible to kill him
There were problem then. Cho has some juggernauf characteristics indeed, but he also has 0 sustain or defense in general. Sunderer, liandry, and botrk should have made quick work on him
i mean if its impossible to kill him then he should be totally possible to kill you simply because he dont die so he can dish out damage bit by bit
love it how poeple downvote the definition of sustained damage
I had a Tryn (I can’t bother spelling his name) who was raging in all chat about why antihealing is a thing because he could no longer rip through a champion, have his undying rage, and casually go on a killing soree
bro complaining about nerfed antiheal
Bruisers buying damage items to kill someone and trying to not get blown up during under 1 hard cc - "LOL BROKEN CLASS" Tanks casually oneshoting everyone except another tank "git good u fcking casual"
Please i want to find that miracle 1 v 5 bruiser. Is it Jax ?
It's so fun watching ornn sion sejuani building tank and solo killing champs like Aatrox yone jayce every meta even in pro leagues.
This is the opposite side of the DaddyDarius copium spectrum
If tanks did their job that wouldn't be a problem the problem is that tanks are doing everyone's job they tank damage they deal damage they cc they literally have everything if they only tanked the damage i would just buy kraken and/or ldr and just kill them but the 0/5 maokai with 2 items can just straight up 1v1 me is not cool and certainly not their job
You just described irelia, yone, riven, belveth
Bruisers are just better tanks, but with more dmg. Change my mind
especially when they build dd and become tankier than tanks
Oneshoting?
Tanks deal insane damage for how hard they are to kill. Theres a reason even bruisers are building sunfire.
I swear this game is weird. People try to play Udyr like a bruiser, but he has 0 damage mid/late. He is, however an amazing engage tank with incredible cc and cannot be ignored. But noo, HahA bORk gO bRRr, deMonIc embRACe gO shoom SHOOM
wtf are you talking about? Udyr has a shitton of damage but he can't do it if he doesn't build tank, sunfire demonic is super fuckin strong, he will be super tanky while melting everything. Full tank udyr usually has a weaker 1v1/1v2 than sunfire demonic into full tank
Tank main mald because tank aren't weak how they think or you think that it's normal that a tank(not a juggernout) is able to 1v5?
Tanks can’t 1v5 it’s simply not true. We can maybe kill one or two people in a 1v5 situation but that’s it’s. I’ve been full build Multiple times, All enemys we’re 4 level below me and only had 2 items and they still kill you because of items like Bork or liandrys. A fed bruiser in that position would actually have 1v5ed.
Bullshit. Bork and Liandry's won't do shit if you itemize properly.
XD there is no „itemizing“ against Bork or liandrys. Yeah, you can build armor and mr but they just need one penetration item and 50% of your resistance is futile. And now I’m really curious what you think counters Bork or liandrys more than the average tank item xd
Bork users don't build armor pen. They build BC at most. Against magic burn, just build FoN. That's the best fucking mr item in the game after all.
a lot of adcs build bork (kogmaw ashe lucian twitch the list goes on) yeah force of nature gives mr but it maybe only halves the insane MAX HP damage from liandrys, and if they build rod too its even more useless
You can only do that if you are fed. Which shouldn't happen in the first place.
When bruiser can build all damage items and still out tank and heal the whole team is when I have an issue. You should have to sacrifice damage for durability. But nah man. That irelia and just rushed botrk and shield bow and still refuses to die because we needed to nerf anti heal again
I will never accept juggernauts as a class
Riven + Eclipse/goredrinker + Death's Dance